WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.799 This is Pod Popular Podcast for the People. 2 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:13.320 The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate. 3 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:15.400 The Great Love Debate. 4 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:19.039 It's a great love de Hi. Get our everyone, It's 5 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:19.559 Brian Howie. 6 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:22.719 Welcome to the Great Love Debate, the world's number one 7 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:26.519 dating and relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. We are back 8 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:31.600 here in the Northeast Ohio UH, Pod Popular Podcasts, the 9 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:35.439 People Lovely Studio. Here, I get sent a lot of 10 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:38.039 things I've talked about that before. I get sent articles, 11 00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:40.759 I get sent blogs, I get sent podcast episodes, I 12 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:46.840 get sent polls, and publicists reach out to me. Sometimes 13 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:50.159 I get offered guests. Uh And recently I sort of 14 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:53.560 had a perfect storm here. I knew I was going 15 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.320 to be in Northeast Ohio at Pod Popular Podcast for 16 00:00:56.359 --> 00:01:00.280 the People recording an episode, and I got I had 17 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:01.399 somebody reach out to me. 18 00:01:01.960 --> 00:01:03.759 She's a publicist from a. 19 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:08.599 Publisher and said you, I get a guest for you. 20 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:10.799 He's got a book coming out. And the first question 21 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:14.719 I asked a publicist is where are they and she 22 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.799 said Cleveland. I'm like, ah, there's a chance there's a 23 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:21.480 bullseye there. I'm going to hit it. And then I said, well, 24 00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:24.480 who is it, And I'll get into who it is 25 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:28.879 in a second. But fortuitously and coincidentally, this was somebody 26 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:32.799 whose initial blog that brought him to fame was sent 27 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:35.159 to me about three or four years ago, and I 28 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:38.200 was fascinated by it, and I was going to do 29 00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:42.560 an episode on it without him in the house because 30 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:44.560 I had so many questions about it and thoughts about it. 31 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:47.519 And so, as luck would have it, he not only 32 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.000 has this blog, but I'm going to get into the 33 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:50.640 substance of it and minta. He has a new book 34 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:54.120 coming out. It is called This Is How Your Marriage Ends. 35 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:58.079 Just in time for the holiday season, Matthew Fray, how 36 00:01:58.079 --> 00:01:58.359 are you? 37 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:00.640 I'm excellent, sir, how are you? Thank you very much 38 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:01.079 for having me. 39 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:03.680 I need to hear your whole story, but I'm gonna 40 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:06.480 jump in sort of in the middle of your story. 41 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:14.520 You decide to write a little bit of a falling 42 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:21.000 on the sword, taking personal responsibility, self analysis, what happened? 43 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:22.680 What went wrong? How can we do better? 44 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:26.199 A lot of it in a blog called she Divorced 45 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:29.520 Me because I left the dishes by the sink, and 46 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:34.719 millions of people shared that reddit. Obviously, you always hope 47 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:37.879 something would happen like that, I think, or where you're like, 48 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:41.879 oh my god, no, no, no, it's you know, it 49 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:43.240 was cathartic and it blew up. 50 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:45.719 Well it's cool now, five years later after I'm adjusted 51 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:47.879 to it. But back then this was like a big 52 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:51.039 secret this like I write anonymously on the internet thing. 53 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.000 I didn't want my dad to know. I didn't want 54 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:55.199 my mom to know. I didn't want my friends to know. 55 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:57.800 It was like secret stuff. And well I was only 56 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:00.639 a handful of people because I don't know get into it. 57 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:03.039 But I mean, if we're gonna like psychoanalyze ourselves, I 58 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:07.479 think it's like this guy shame living in our feelings thing. Yeah, 59 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.159 like we don't do when we're hanging out with like 60 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:14.159 guy friends, either like kids or like yeah even today, 61 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:16.960 you know, as like I'm a forty something. Yeah, this 62 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:19.800 isn't the stuff that I talk about to say, feeling 63 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:25.280 adult words. So I'm used to it now because it's 64 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:28.360 been nearly nine years. But back then there was this big, 65 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:32.680 like personal campaign to like shield everybody from it, right anyway, 66 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.639 and then it sort of accidentally did the thing, and 67 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:36.520 I don't. 68 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:38.840 Know that was a wild week or two or did 69 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:40.919 you know that this one was somehow different from what you. 70 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:43.879 Were writing, did you know? No, absolutely not. I Actually 71 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:46.479 I don't think it's even in the vicinity of like 72 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:48.599 my my best writing. I don't think any of my 73 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:52.840 blogs or I don't writing. I don't know that they have. Yeah, 74 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:56.680 I'm not sure that I've ever written well it. It 75 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:58.680 does seem to be the perfect storm in the context 76 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:02.439 of like this clickbaity headline. And it wasn't intentional. I 77 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.560 wasn't trying to like con people to click it and 78 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:07.479 read it. I swear right. It was if anybody did 79 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:10.639 take the time to like read the blog and like 80 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:12.879 all of the posts that preceded it, it was another 81 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.600 attempt for me to use metaphor to communicate the idea 82 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:18.839 that I tried to communicate in that in that blog post. 83 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:22.160 How long did you write that from the time your 84 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:26.800 marriage had ended? That published in the end of January 85 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:29.920 twenty sixteen. My marriage ended on April first, twenty thirteen, 86 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:31.959 so not quite three years, so you had a little 87 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:35.000 bit of a distance, sure, you know, a couple of years. 88 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:35.240 Yeah. 89 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:39.040 Yeah, At what point did you did it dawn on 90 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:41.800 you that leaving the kitchenes by this was the metaphor 91 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:45.040 for everything else? Was this ges dating in your head 92 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:47.040 or when day you woke up and you're like, aha, 93 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:48.800 the glasses by the sink. 94 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:51.879 I was trying to write as often as possible back then. 95 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:55.319 I was writing close to daily, back in like twenty fifteen, 96 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:59.160 twenty sixteen, and you know, the idea just occurred to me. 97 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:02.000 That's so, it's a really awesome question because it's the 98 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.600 nature of my work. Is the idea that we don't 99 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:06.839 get to decide what matters to other people, and we 100 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:09.720 try all the time. I'm shocked to which podcasts resonate 101 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.360 with people around it. Yeah. We always want to tell 102 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:14.480 people that they should or should not think or feel 103 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:18.800 the things that they do. And that's fine, like mainstream society, 104 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.040 although I think causes all sorts of issues, right, but 105 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:25.160 it definitely harms our relationships. And once I like connected 106 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:28.480 like those ideas, I don't know, it felt like this 107 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.000 is the key thing that everyone does that they don't 108 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:34.639 realize is really harmful while they're doing it very slowly. 109 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.480 This isn't like, you know, we say something vile and 110 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:40.079 like backhand to the person we love. This is this 111 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:44.160 slow erosion of like trust and safety and connection and relationships? 112 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.079 Is it the one thing again to this day, I'm 113 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:49.040 not sure if you think leaving the glasses by the 114 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:50.279 sink on its own is. 115 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:52.279 A big deal. I don't think so. I do it 116 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:55.600 all the time, though, Right, She's like, she's wrong, right, 117 00:05:57.680 --> 00:05:58.319 A lot of. 118 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:00.639 Little things add up to a big thing. Or it 119 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:03.360 was more about I've said this before in the podcast. 120 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:04.959 She doesn't want to be right, she just wants to 121 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:07.560 be heard. And I think in her expression of that, 122 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.079 and you either dismissing it, not thinking it was a 123 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:12.959 big deal, or flat out ignoring it, she's not heard. 124 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:14.839 And then she starts to think, well, how many other 125 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:16.199 times am I not being heard here? 126 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:20.480 Is that? Right? I think? So, I don't want to 127 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:21.920 go off on a tangent that you don't want to, 128 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:23.680 but I'm gonna give it a shot. This all shows 129 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:26.879 a tangent. You get to redirect me anytime you want, 130 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:29.000 so I do. And I have for the last like 131 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.160 threeish years three four years done coaching work. So I 132 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:34.000 work with guys. They reach out to me voluntarily. I 133 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.439 don't advertise, they come to me via the blog, and 134 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.360 I hyper focus on two very specific ideas. I call 135 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:42.199 them habits because I don't want people to feel defensive, 136 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:43.800 as if they think what they're doing is bad. I 137 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.800 don't think it's bad, right, I think, because we could 138 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.839 have thirty different romantic partners and thirty different reactions to 139 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:51.040 what we do totally agree. 140 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:52.759 I say that all we know is what the last 141 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:54.560 girl liked, and we probably found that out too late. 142 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:59.839 Right. So there's two things. I believe a road trust 143 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.759 relationships habitually, and I think it shows up and it 144 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:04.720 shows up in every relationship that I encounter, in the 145 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:07.439 work that I do, and it was certainly sort of 146 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:09.480 like the heart and soul of the story of how 147 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:14.079 my marriage ended. And the first habit is validation. My 148 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.639 wife would try to communicate something was wrong, and I 149 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.120 always responded in one of three ways. I would disagree 150 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:21.800 with what she thought, I would disagree with what she felt, 151 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.279 or I would be defensive. It wasn't that I thought 152 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:27.600 I was superior and she had to do what I did. 153 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:30.319 It was just the math result of my conversations with 154 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:34.319 my wife, where if I disagree with you, your brain's wrong, 155 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:36.920 your feelings are wrong, or regardless, I was justified to 156 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:38.759 do what I do. And when you do that a 157 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.279 few thousand times in a relationship, you would road trust 158 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:44.560 to the point where a person doesn't. A person says, 159 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:47.800 I can't count on you to participate effectively in making 160 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:50.680 me feel better when life's hard. You're not a person 161 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.720 I can come to. And so people start to like 162 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:55.639 plan their exit strategies and relationships. 163 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:58.240 But the fourth part of that that I think you 164 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:00.600 must have done, because we all do this is sort 165 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.079 of what about ism? You give me a hard time 166 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:05.319 about this, but what about when you do that? Was 167 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:09.720 that a factor too? That the most I do it. 168 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.199 All the time, and I hear it all the time. Yeah, Yeah, 169 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:15.480 I do that absolutely. I have so many guys that 170 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.480 they're like, Okay, I hear you, Matt. You want me 171 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:20.399 to make like a change on behalf of my partner. 172 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:23.519 But she's doing all these things that suck for me. Right, 173 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:28.360 And I asked the guy yesterday, and I said, independent 174 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:32.000 of like what she's doing or not doing, and independent 175 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:33.879 of like how good or bad she makes you feel, 176 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.879 how does that stop you from like trying something different 177 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:41.399 just to see what happens next? And he sat quietly 178 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:44.879 for like thirty seconds. Right, he doesn't want to do 179 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:48.919 the work because it feels bad. She makes him feel bad, right, 180 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:51.039 and I lived it, so I get it. 181 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:54.559 And women, we're going to generalize here because I love 182 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:57.440 to do that at a great love to be. They're 183 00:08:57.559 --> 00:08:59.279 very good at the smack on the nose, and they're 184 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:01.440 not as good at the path on the nose. So 185 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:06.480 we're very rarely positively reinforced in good behavior, and we 186 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:11.399 are often negatively reinforced in bad behavior. So she probably 187 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:14.720 and not she your wife, but any woman, we would 188 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:17.519 probably hear the negative, Please don't do this, or I 189 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.360 don't like when you do this. If equally the things 190 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.000 we did write or if we did wash the glass 191 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:26.519 and put it away, it would be not well you 192 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:28.320 should know to do that. Well, I've only asked you 193 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:30.480 to do that one hundred times where they either noticed 194 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:35.200 the gesture or somehow reciprocated the effort of you doing that. 195 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.080 And that doesn't always happen either way. 196 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.519 Right. I can't remember exactly what my wife used to 197 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:43.360 say to me, but it was this notion of like, 198 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.279 you know what you want to like throw my clothes off, 199 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.080 and like give you a cookie and tell you how 200 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:51.440 great you are for doing this thing that like to me, 201 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:55.120 feels so like you just should do it right. That 202 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:57.679 was more or less her take. I'm certainly being hyperbolic 203 00:09:57.679 --> 00:09:58.799 about things she might have said. 204 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:01.120 Did you try and write break down ever? Did you 205 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:03.519 try and say why does this matter to you? And 206 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:05.600 then say here's why it doesn't matter to me. Is 207 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:07.279 there anything that negotiation doesn't happen. 208 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.639 No, But that's a massive part of the work that 209 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:12.159 I try to do with these guys. I'm like, instead 210 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.879 of this auto invalidation of this other person with human 211 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.039 disagree and I'm like, hm, I'm on your side as 212 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.559 a human being. You're allowed to disagree, right. I don't 213 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.120 think you should agree with your partner. I don't, right, 214 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:27.679 But if you want to have a healthy relationship with them, 215 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:30.919 the message can't be what you think and feel doesn't 216 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:34.279 matter to me, So understand it. Seek to understand. 217 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:37.960 Is it a game of whack a mole where you Okay, 218 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:40.399 I got the glass thing right, and now she's going 219 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:41.960 to move on to the next thing. 220 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:44.480 A lot of guys think that, and so that thank you. 221 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:45.000 It's the perfect. 222 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:47.559 It's the perfect because if that's the only thing I'm 223 00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:49.200 doing wrong, I'm fantastic. 224 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:52.080 Yes, sir, Yeah. It's the perfect segue to habit number 225 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:54.639 two in my work because I get all of these 226 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.519 guys that are like, it's always something new. There's a 227 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:00.200 thousand different things she has the same message about, and 228 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:02.759 if I do this right or if I don't, it's 229 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:04.480 like it doesn't matter because there's always a new thing. 230 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.559 And I try to gently reframe it. I'm like, no, guys, 231 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.559 it's just one thing, and it is and it is 232 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:14.440 this notion of the habit. I call it consideration, and 233 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:16.159 it's a weird word. And you know, when I grew 234 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:18.159 up here, the word considerate, I thought I just met deep, polite, 235 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:22.840 well mannered consideration. I think about like this. I've had 236 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:26.679 a million wives and girlfriends, hundreds, not millions come to 237 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.759 me and say, Matt, I am married to somebody, so okay. 238 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:34.679 In my life, there's me, there's my husband, there's my children, 239 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:37.519 and we are all individually like variables in the math 240 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:39.799 equation I used to make a decision. There is no 241 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:42.120 choice I make, including like when to schedule a hair 242 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:46.000 appointment that I don't factor in my husband's schedule, my 243 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.360 husband's preferences, my kids, extracurricular activities, all of these things 244 00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:52.440 are constantly being like wide and judged and evaluated. And 245 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:54.799 I do the best I can to not let a 246 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:57.720 decision I make inadvertently harmony of them or force them 247 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:00.399 to like have some sacrifice that they have to make 248 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.080 on my behalf. Right, But I'm married to somebody who 249 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.799 doesn't do that step. He doesn't do that work. It's 250 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:08.600 just like him. And then the equals sign and then 251 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:11.039 whatever choice he makes, and she's like, he's not mean, 252 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:13.399 he's not bad, he's not trying to hurt me. But 253 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:16.840 frequently there's evidence that he makes a decision that he 254 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:19.200 just failed to consider what would happen to me, what 255 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:20.720 would happen to the kids, what would happen to the 256 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:22.759 family if he made that choice. It could be something 257 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.279 relatively minor, like staying late at work and not communicating it. 258 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:28.240 It could be something major, like buying something for one 259 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:33.799 hundred thousand dollars. And so in that scenario, the wife 260 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.080 and the mother says, the worst case scenario is that 261 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:38.200 my husband thinks about me, that doesn't give a shit. 262 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.000 He simply does not care what he does affects me. Adversely, 263 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:45.559 and the best case scenario is that he didn't think 264 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:47.919 about it. Like he didn't remember, he didn't think about 265 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:52.279 me at all. I register like this infintestica, So like, 266 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:53.320 here's what she thinks. 267 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.919 I don't care is better than it doesn't even factor 268 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:00.399 into my thinking in a way, right. 269 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:02.960 Like my wife matters so little to me that I 270 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.519 don't think the man thinks this or feels this, right, 271 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.879 but heard like the narrative and her interpretation for the 272 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.000 last five years, ten years, fifteen years of my relationship, 273 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:16.759 it's evident that I do not like register enough in 274 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.840 his daily life for him to remember that doing this 275 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:23.639 will adversely affect me. Right, And then if I tell 276 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:27.080 him about it, that invalidation thing always happens the thing 277 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.480 you think, the thing you feel is wrong, or he'll 278 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:30.159 defend himself. 279 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:32.120 See, I think there's a way to do this both 280 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.840 from the perspective of a man and from a woman 281 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:39.720 that actually can make it fun. So let's just say 282 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.679 most of my girlfriend issues stam around, like the bathroom 283 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:47.840 I drip water all over the place, and the towels 284 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.519 in the wrong place. I don't squeegee showers in places 285 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:52.519 where that really bothers girls. 286 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:54.039 That there's streaks on the show, I get. 287 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:58.039 It all that that men are love sort of winning 288 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:02.759 gaming culture. So if you gamify it in a way 289 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:06.440 as a woman, say there are twenty things that bother 290 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:10.799 him about you, that bother you about him, and let's 291 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.000 say number one as he leaves the glasses by the sink, 292 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.000 you tell him that, you focus on that, you get 293 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:20.200 him to do that. Then when that's done, you do 294 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:22.799 move on to the next thing that bothers you. And 295 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.600 instead of making it seem like, oh my god, there's 296 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:27.879 just another thing, I'm never gonna win this that he's like, okay, 297 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:30.720 next challenge and you're a survivor, and he's like, all right, 298 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.840 I won that one. Positively reforced on that. Let's move 299 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.240 on to the next thing that you got to work on. 300 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:38.000 And when you sort of get through this obstacle, course, 301 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:40.720 I'm gonna make you feel good for doing it. I 302 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:43.360 don't think then in the relationship you probably are never 303 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.720 going to run out of things to work on. But 304 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:47.279 if you frame it all is sort of a game, 305 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:50.200 a challenge, a quest to do this, I think guys 306 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:52.919 would like that, and I think guys would get into 307 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.879 that because that's the way our brain is sort of 308 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.320 wired that it's like, all right, I'm so good at 309 00:14:58.320 --> 00:14:59.759 this one. Give me the next one that you don't 310 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:02.120 like I do, as long as they are reasonable things, 311 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:02.879 you know. 312 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:04.320 I get. 313 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.759 I'm probably never gonna put the glasses away either, but 314 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:09.360 if that makes her happy, and I understand that, if 315 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.039 it makes her happy, I won't be reminded of all 316 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:14.440 the time as I used to do it. I also 317 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.320 don't need to be like, see look what I did 318 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:19.159 every time before I get to the sea, Look what 319 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:21.360 I did. I want you to see that I did it, 320 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:23.879 and then be like, I love the glass thing. Now 321 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:24.799 one more thing. 322 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.639 Let's talk about your socks on the floor. And then 323 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:30.279 he's going to be like, I can do this. You know, 324 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:32.720 I think that has some value. I think that's possible. 325 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:35.960 I love the gamifying idea, but I did want to 326 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:38.399 reframe something that you just said because of the way 327 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:39.919 that I think about it, and I think it's really 328 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.559 important because I wouldn't do this work if I thought 329 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:44.519 about it the way you phrased it, which is this 330 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:48.919 notion of trying to make her happy. I am offended 331 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.639 by the idea, not not macro, but like, yeah, in 332 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:55.600 my personal life, over and over again, I was in 333 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:57.919 my marriage offended by the notion that, like my wife's 334 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:00.600 preferences should always went out of her mind, right, Like 335 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.080 that's I thought that was bullshit. And I'm like, I'm 336 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:05.399 not gonna do a thing just because like I want 337 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:06.360 to do it one way, you want to do it 338 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.840 another way, and then you just always win. And I'm 339 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:10.480 a shit husband, Like if I don't do it your way, 340 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.759 that's how I thought about it. I don't think about 341 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:15.039 it that way anymore now. I think about it as 342 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.000 the math result of something I do or don't do 343 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:22.159 equals pain for my partner. So it's not that I 344 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:23.840 wanted to make her happy. It's not that I don't 345 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:24.720 want to make her happy. 346 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:28.440 Trying to eliminate the floor and not the ceiling, your 347 00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:30.320 folks on what makes her not makes her unhappy? 348 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.240 I'm saying walking into the kitchen and seeing a dish 349 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:37.480 by the sink for the seventy fourth time after having 350 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.879 and I mean like specifically seventy four conversations where she says, Matt, this, 351 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.039 this bothers me, this upsets me, Like this feels bad, 352 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.639 and I'm always like, well, shouldn't you know it piss off? Right? 353 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.279 You know, I'm dismissing her emotion. It's not necessarily what 354 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:53.840 I said, but that's the math result of what I said. 355 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:56.200 I don't give a shit, right and I would keep 356 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.600 doing it, or worse, maybe I would indicate that I 357 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:03.200 value what she said. But then the evidence is that 358 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:04.799 there's still a glass there, like the next day or 359 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:06.839 the next week or the next month, and that you're 360 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.839 guilty of the infraction. The pain. The pain is not 361 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:13.200 the glass sitting by the sink. The pain is he 362 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.160 refuses to consider me when he makes a decision, or 363 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:20.559 he does consider me, and he chooses himself over me 364 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.720 every time. And I mean that to me is why 365 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:28.839 people eventually get this doesn't happen overnight. But did she 366 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:31.799 ever have that conversation with you? Absolutely not. 367 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:35.960 So she didn't say, listen, it's more than about the glass, 368 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:39.359 So it didn't. You know, I'm not saying the burden 369 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.319 of communication is on her, but I'm saying that would 370 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.160 that have made a difference to you in the at 371 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:46.920 the time or where you were, Like if she said, listen, 372 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.400 it's not the glass, it's that I don't feel heard 373 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.880 and I don't feel considered. Would if she had said 374 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:54.960 that in the right way would the glasses. 375 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.279 Being the cupboard. The really sick part is that it 376 00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:59.759 probably would have taken some guy doing the work that 377 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:01.640 I'm trying to do to say it for me to 378 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:03.720 get it. I hear it all the time, and I 379 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.119 frankly I think people resent like that. I sometimes like 380 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.079 connect with like boyfriends and husbands because they're like, I've 381 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.759 been saying the same shit for like ten fifteen years, 382 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:14.319 and like some divorce guy on the internet says it, 383 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:16.839 and you're gonna like pay attention now. There is a 384 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.680 feeling among many women, married women, wives, mothers that it 385 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.519 takes a man to say a thing before their husbands 386 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:29.039 will listen, and it I don't know, it's sort of oh, 387 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:31.079 I agree with you, you know, and I've seen it. 388 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.559 They are asking the questions and doing the work and 389 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:36.039 they're a little more introspective than they ever have been. 390 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.720 A long way to go, but more men are like, Okay, 391 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.160 help me figure this puzzle out right, is a good thing. 392 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:45.000 What were the conversations like, you know, not to get 393 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:49.119 too deeply into the ending of your marriage, but where 394 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:53.519 they're like you sensed the growing frustration, or it's one 395 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:55.640 day she's like I don't want to do this anymore, 396 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.440 and you know it had you had to work backwards 397 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.400 and reverse engineer a figure out the glassest thing, like 398 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:02.119 how does it end? 399 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:03.599 And then how does the light bulb go off in 400 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:08.279 your head about why so we lost her we lost 401 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.240