WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:06.000 It's Night Side with Dan Ray w b Z Constance Radio. 2 00:00:06.679 --> 00:00:08.439 I thought we're getting a second newscast there. Thank you 3 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:13.080 very much, almost did. You're right, no problem. I think 4 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:15.519 all of us are aware of the fact that there 5 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:20.399 is a titanic battle going on between the Trump administration 6 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:24.199 really in the person of the president himself as well 7 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:26.719 as the people who work for him at Harvard University, 8 00:00:26.760 --> 00:00:32.240 a lot of other really important universities around the country. Uh, 9 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:36.679 there is a group that has combined from Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, 10 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.920 and others, one of whom has been a guest on 11 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:43.759 this program before, Professor Stephen Pinker, Professor of psychology at 12 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:48.039 Harvard University. Professor Pinker, welcome to Nights Out. I know 13 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:51.119 you have limited time, and I hope that the signal 14 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:55.200 holds for us here. If I were to characterize you 15 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:59.759 as someone who is not has not been happy with 16 00:00:59.840 --> 00:01:03.640 some of the recent trends at Harvard University in terms 17 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:09.359 of intellectual diversity. You have been critical of the administration 18 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:13.560 on some of these issues, and yet you are just 19 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:19.159 as critical now of Donald Trump's administration as he threatens 20 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:24.480 to potentially even go as far as to take away 21 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.840 the tax exempt status of the university. Some people might 22 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:31.000 see those as inconsistent. I do not. I'd like you 23 00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:33.000 to explain them. 24 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:33.519 Sure. Well. 25 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:37.760 I've been a pretty vocal critic of Harvard. I wrote 26 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:40.000 a viral article a few years ago called the Trouble 27 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:42.519 with Harvard. I wrote an article for The Boston Globe 28 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:45.200 last year called a five point plan for Harvard to 29 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:49.400 save itself. I formed the Council on Academic Freedom at Harvard, 30 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:54.000 with where two hundred faculty are pushing back against what 31 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.799 we thought of as not enough a commitment to academic freedom, 32 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:04.280 to intellectual diversity. But we've been pushing Harvard to reform. 33 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:08.039 I think we've had a number of successes. Harvard scrapped 34 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:12.080 the diversity statements that we did out out job applicants 35 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:17.240 who weren't woke ideologues. We got them to stop issuing pronouncements. 36 00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:21.719 We've got them to just public commit to the idea 37 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:25.919 that diversity of viewpoints is a good thing and that 38 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:28.639 has to be fostered. Lots of stuff has been happening. 39 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:33.759 The latest list of demands the ultimatum from the Trump 40 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:39.319 administration on Friday night is it's just platently ridiculous, as 41 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:42.080 one of my colleagues said, it's an offer that Harvard 42 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:48.080 could not refuse. They would put government bureaucrats in charge 43 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:53.479 of maintaining viewpoint diversity in every department without saying what 44 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:58.479 viewpoint diversity means. Does this mean that government bureaucrats could 45 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:02.719 put creation in the biology department and anti factors? 46 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:03.039 And the. 47 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:08.120 It says that we've got to vet students, not in 48 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:11.840 any students who don't endorse American values. Well, you know, 49 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:13.960 I come from Canada, and I'm here to tell you 50 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:16.520 that a lot of Canadians say that the US has 51 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:19.919 too many guns and engages in stupid wars and that 52 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:23.759 doesn't have a good healthcare system. Are we supposed to 53 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:27.520 keep them out? The thing is, if the whole point 54 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:32.919 of the Trump pressure was to enhance freedom of thought, 55 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:36.439 academic freedom, viewpoint diversity. But if you've got a bunch 56 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:41.039 of government bureaucrats telling us who our professors have to be, 57 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.560 what kind of students we admit, setting up a by 58 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:47.800 the way, massive bureaucracy to audit every unit and file 59 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:50.800 reports with the government every three months, you know, I 60 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:53.240 don't even know if they were serious that Harvard could 61 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:58.039 ever accept this, because it really means handing over Harvard 62 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:02.319 to a hostile takeover. I suspect that they were kind 63 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:03.599 of setting up a confrontation. 64 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:07.159 Well, the other thing is that, you know, Trump obviously 65 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:10.039 overstating what he hopes to accomplish, so called art of 66 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.199 the deal. A lot of we talked about this last night, 67 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.160 and a lot of the demands on Harvard, by the way, 68 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:20.399 demands that Columbia in many ways acquiesced to another Ivy 69 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:24.360 League college, a lot of them, lawyers would say would 70 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:28.519 be vague, arbitrary and capricious. Again, and you've highlighted some 71 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.839 of those as to who would set up how what 72 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.560 standard would be used. And you know when they talk 73 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:39.160 about American values, well, different people have different explanations of 74 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:43.399 American values, Professor Pinker. We're joined by a mutual friend 75 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:45.920 of ours, Harvey Silverwade, and they just I know that 76 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.879 you're limited on time, and I want to make sure 77 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:51.120 Harvey has a chance to say hello. He says he 78 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:54.000 has a bit of a surprise, and Harvey always has 79 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.600 good surprises. So let's say, let's let's just bring Harvey 80 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.199 into the conversation. Harvey, welcome back. As always, you're on 81 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:04.879 with someone who needs no introduction to you, A colleague 82 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:11.319 and a friend, Professor Steve Pinker of Harvard University. Go ahead, Harvey. 83 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:18.439 By coincidence, I wrote a letter two hours ago. I 84 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.399 dated in April eighteenth, because I planned to mail her 85 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:26.800 tomorrow morning a postal letter. It reads as follows, Alan 86 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:32.560 Garbe President, John Manning, Provost Harvard University. Dear Allan and John, 87 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.160 as you can well understand, I'm very pleased that Harvard 88 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:40.079 is standing up to Donald Trump. In my view, Trump 89 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:45.800 is associopath, a person with no moral compass. I realize 90 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:49.839 that taking this stand will be financially painful for Harvard 91 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:52.879 in the short term, but Trump will be gone in 92 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:56.839 a bid under four years. Parenthesis has claimed that he 93 00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:00.480 can win the third term is legal and constitutional. Monson's 94 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.079 close parentheses. Harvard, on the other hand, is older than 95 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:10.160 our nation itself. It shall prevail. Congratulations for showing some backbone. 96 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:15.120 Harvey Silverglade and Harvey Silverglade, someone who's been critical of Harvard. 97 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:18.079 We seem to have lost Steve Pinker. Rob See if 98 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.600 you can bring Professor Pinker back, please, I think that 99 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:23.639 he just got into a bad cell zone. If you 100 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:27.560 can try to re establish that connection with him. I 101 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.439 know that he never would have hung up on us 102 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.839 or on Harvey. From a legal point of view, Harvey, 103 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:37.279 obviously you probably have the same view of I do 104 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:42.160 as I do, and as Professor Pinker described, you know, vague, arbitrary, 105 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.279 capricious demands. I look at it as if Donald Trump 106 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.120 is looking at this as a negotiation of real estate negotiation. 107 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:54.480 That's how he looks at all these situations. 108 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:58.920 I know you had some personal dealings with him over 109 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:03.519 the years, Professor Pinker back with us, rob Okay, Professor Pinker, 110 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.160 thank you. I think we lost you there for a 111 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.560 couple of minutes. Harvey has just written a letter to 112 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:14.959 the President of Harvard, President Garber, in which he commends 113 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:18.600 him for all of this. We were just to bring 114 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.800 you back into the conversation. We were just talking, Harvey 115 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:27.480 and I about this. Is Donald Trump unrestrained, who was 116 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.240 looking at this more as a real estate deal, saying, look, 117 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:32.439 you know, I want to buy this building, but I 118 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.639 also want to have to buy these other two buildings, 119 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.160 and that he's not looking at it as as a 120 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:43.120 as a leak. From a legal perspective, I think he's 121 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.759 just he's overreaching as he would in any so called 122 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.279 art of the deal. Are we far off on that, 123 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:53.000 Professor Pinker feel free again? Harvey's still with us on 124 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:53.439 the line. 125 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:58.360 Yes, I don't think it's that, just because I. 126 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:02.079 Don't think this is good faith negotiation. When it came 127 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:06.160 to Columbia, the ultimatum was you've got to do the 128 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:10.240 following things, and even if you do, we don't promise 129 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:14.240 to restore funding. And again with Harvard, where the demands 130 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:17.399 are far more extreme than what he usould with Columbia. 131 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:20.480 They're so over the top it's not good that Harvard 132 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.040 could could accept any of them. They're just not a 133 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:26.399 reasonable starting point for negotiations. Nor is there a promise 134 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:29.160 that if Harvard did them, then the universe that the 135 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:33.000 Trump administration we're back off as opposed to pocketing the 136 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.039 conceptions and concessions and upping the ante. So we're dealing 137 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.639 with someone, I think, who just wants to dominate, to 138 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:44.360 fully to humiliate. You know, we've seen that in his 139 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:49.480 other negotiating so called negotiations with Canada, with Denmark, with Ukraine. 140 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.879 So it doesn't seem like just real estate deal where 141 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:57.600 two parties try to hammer out an agreement and meet 142 00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:58.360 somewhere in the middle. 143 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.799 Yeah. Well, I just think that his style is to 144 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.559 is to ask for more and then accept what he can. 145 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:11.200 Maybe there's nothing that Harvard would acquiesce to has anyone 146 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:15.399 from the administration recognizing that there are people who should 147 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:20.440 be aligned with them, not necessarily philosophically, but at least 148 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.519 on the broader issue of what was going on on 149 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.600 campuses a year and a year and a half ago 150 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:30.799 post October seventh. You know, some of the issuance I 151 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:34.039 know with Columbia was students no longer could be masked 152 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:38.240 to hide their identities. There was there was more, I thought, 153 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:42.600 outrageous behavior at Harvard at Columbia than at Harvard. I 154 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:46.200 know Harvard had some incidents. They seemed to me to 155 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:52.039 be less organized. If you if you understand what I'm 156 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:53.200 trying to suggest. 157 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:56.799 Oh, absolutely, yeah, Columbia. Harvard was bad, Columbia was worse. 158 00:09:57.399 --> 00:10:00.320 And you know, it was just a question of follow 159 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:03.559 your own rules, your own procedures of due process. If 160 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:08.480 students clearly cross the line from peaceful process protests to 161 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:16.840 intimidation and occupation, then apply the rules consistently. And neither 162 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:19.200 Harvard nor Columbia has done that, and if that was 163 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:24.120 the demand Harvard could easily have I've said yes, But 164 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.879 turning over the keys to hiring, admissions promotion to the 165 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:32.799 Trump administration in effect goes way beyond just enforcing rules 166 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:34.840 that are on the book that Harvard could easily have 167 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:35.320 lived with. 168 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.320 Okay, I want to ask a question when I come 169 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:40.799 back that I know is in the minds of some 170 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:44.600 of my listeners, and Professor Pinker, I know what We've 171 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:46.159 cut it at ten minutes. I'm just going to ask 172 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.080 the one question to both you and Harvey when we 173 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.639 come back. If that's okay, and that is you can 174 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:53.240 think about the answer. But I had people last night 175 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:54.960 who were saying to me, well, Harvard has a fifty 176 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.039 three billion dollar in doman, why do they need taxpayer money? Anyway, 177 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:00.399 I'd like to get a response from both both of you. 178 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:02.360 Do that, and then Professor Pinker, I will let you 179 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:05.159 get home with the rest of your evening, and Harvey, 180 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.519 I will I will thank you for your participation as well. 181 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.000 Could you both just give me a couple of minutes, 182 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:13.039 get through a couple of commercial messages, and respond to 183 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.200 that point, because that was a point that folks continued 184 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:18.720 to raise with me last night on the show. They 185 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.919 have fifty feet three billion, why do they need taxpayer money? 186 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.720 Fair enough, that's the question you'll ask. And okay, we'll 187 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.200 be back with Harvey Silverglate and Professor Stephen Pinker of 188 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.320 the Psychology Department at Harvard University. And if you'd like 189 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:34.919 to jump on board. They will be leaving us, but 190 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:37.840 I want to open up to your your thoughts as well. 191 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:41.120 Harvey may stay with us a little while, if that's possible, 192 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:45.120 six months, seven two thirty, six months, seven nine thirty 193 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.519 back right after this with a concluding segment with Professor 194 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:51.840 Stephen Pinker, and may or may not be a concluding 195 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:53.720 segment with Harvey Silverglate back on Nightside. 196 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:57.279 Right after this, It's Night Side with Dan Ray on 197 00:11:57.639 --> 00:11:59.759 w Boston's News. 198 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:05.000 We're joined by Professor Stephen Pinker of the Psychology Department 199 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:09.279 at Harvard University. In Harvey Silverglade, who is a frequent 200 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:12.480 guest and contributed to this program. So I want to 201 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:14.679 ask the question that I think in your absence a 202 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:16.960 lot of people would be thinking, that is, why does 203 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.120 Harvard needs need federal money when they have fifty three 204 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:24.279 billion dollars in endowments. Professor pinkerm, I'd like to start 205 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:25.159 with you, if that's okay. 206 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.919 Sure, well, it's not just a piggy bank that it 207 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:32.559 can break open, and I use to support research indefinitely. 208 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:35.159 For one thing, a lot of those funds are earmarked 209 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:41.440 for buy their donors, for chairs, for professors, for scholarships, 210 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:46.320 for student athletic facilities. Without that money, Harvard could no 211 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:49.919 longer have the policy of not turning away any student 212 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:52.840 for lack of funds. No one has turned away. 213 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:54.320 From Harvard because they can't afford. 214 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:59.000 It, all right, Harvey, you common welfare. 215 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:03.519 It's not kind of welfare. Harvard is giving the country 216 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.000 something in return, namely research on how the brain works 217 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:11.159 and how kids develop and cures for cancer. So without 218 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:15.320 that money, the Harvard couldn't support that research definitely. I 219 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:17.320 mean if it ate at seed Corn, at some point 220 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.320 it would be gone. And it's not just support again, 221 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:24.960 it is paying for research that benefits the entire population. 222 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:29.440 All right, Harvey, let me get your response. I'm sure 223 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:32.120 you agree with Professor Pinker generally. 224 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:36.120 I do, but I would go further. I don't care 225 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.039 what the money went for. I wouldn't care if Harvard 226 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:43.120 was throwing it down a sinkhole. You lose it under 227 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:47.960 a threat. That is the problem. If the White House 228 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.360 can threaten Harvard and this, they can virtually take over 229 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:57.480 and run the university. I don't agree with the Palestinian 230 00:13:57.559 --> 00:14:00.600 point of view, but I believe that they be allowed 231 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:04.080 to demonstrate it's got nothing to do with what the 232 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:04.919 money was for. 233 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:11.720 All right, gentlemen, I thank both of you. Professor Pinker, 234 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.039 you've stayed with us longer. I really do appreciate it. 235 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:17.000 Some night, when we get you in a room and 236 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.519 a chair, well we'll see if we get you for 237 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:23.120 an entire hour. But thank you very much. And again, 238 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:28.080 your scholarship is important. But your position here. The White 239 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:30.879 House would have been very smart, professor, to have reached 240 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:37.000 out to the leadership of this group that you have formed. 241 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.639 No one reached out to you and said, hey, gee, 242 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:42.919 we actually have people on college campuses who we can 243 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:45.960 form an alliance with on the issue of academic freedom 244 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.720 and a and some changes that might be necessary and acceptable. 245 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:54.399 No, no, they did not. They don't have us on 246 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:55.799 speak dial unfortunately. 247 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.559 Yeah. Well I think it's there. I think it's their loss, professor, think. 248 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.720 Thank you so much. We'll look forward to having you 249 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:03.200 back soon. 250 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:06.879 Okay, thanks so much having me back, happy to speak 251 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:07.039 to you. 252 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.240 Thank you very much, Harvey Silver Glad. I'm gonna hold you. 253 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:14.080 We're gonna get some phone calls coming in here. Uh 254 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:18.120 as the as the as the evening goes on. Uh 255 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:22.639 and uh and I do appreciate uh you. I knew 256 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:27.039 this would be your reaction. It you know, you you 257 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:30.919 The line is pretty clear. The line is pretty clear 258 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:36.799 on all of these demands, and some of them. I 259 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:39.919 just wonder who wrote who wrote up this letter? 260 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:40.399 Was it? 261 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.600 Do you think it was Stephen Miller or someone like that. 262 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.600 I mean, it's just the letter goes way over what 263 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:51.159 I think any university would ever be able to commit to. 264 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:59.320 Your quick comment on the demands, Did we lose Harvey 265 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:04.039 some administration? Yes, towards towards Harvard. There are really there 266 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:07.559 are about eight of them, or I think you know, 267 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:12.000 they pulled them out of the letter. Uh. And they 268 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.279 they are very specific, and they're very broad, and they're 269 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:22.240 very far. They're very you know, they're they're such asks over. 270 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:26.600 They wanted to take over. It was a non violent 271 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:32.720 takeover of Harvard University. They wanted to run the place. 272 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:38.480 Yeah, how is it that they that someone didn't look 273 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:41.159 at that? I mean, everybody there are people in the 274 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:44.320 White House are still smart people. How did not someone 275 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:46.480 look at the place and look that isn't ask that 276 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:50.399 is way beyond what we should be asking for. 277 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:56.960 Maybe they did. Trump doesn't listen to anybody. He thinks 278 00:16:56.960 --> 00:16:58.840 he's God's gifts to humanity. 279 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.320 Yeah. Well, I mean, I know you've had personal dealings 280 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:06.359 with him across the table, and they can speak from 281 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:08.359 the can speak from some experience. 282 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:09.039 You know. 283 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.720 I'm going to be honest with your Harvey. I think 284 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:15.599 he's done some good things in his first eighty four 285 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:20.359 or five days whatever it is, including finally tightening up 286 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:25.119 the border. And I do think there have been some 287 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:28.359 things some of the executive orders were necessary, but this 288 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:30.960 to me seems like an overreach. I mean, the first 289 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:32.720 one has changed the government. 290 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:36.839 Go ahead, even a clock that's not working is right 291 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:38.440 twice a day. 292 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:40.640 Fair enough. I'm just going to read a couple of 293 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.680 these change the governance of the leadership to reduce the 294 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:49.640 power of students, faculty, and administrations more committed to activism 295 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.559 than scholarship. I for the life of me, don't understand 296 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:53.640 what he means by that. 297 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:57.039 Is why. 298 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:00.440 Yeah, I mean, and it's impossible for me just gonna 299 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:05.480 respond to it. It is, it's unclear, it's it's beyond arbitrary, 300 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:08.359 vague and capricious. We'll be back with Harvey Silverglate in 301 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:13.240 phone calls. I only have one line open six, one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty. 302 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.640 All points of view are welcomed here, Okay. Do I 303 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.279 think that HARVD was adequate at the hearings in Washington, 304 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:24.000 d C. Fifteen months ago which resulted in the resignation 305 00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:27.599 of the then president Claudion Gay, Absolutely not. Do I 306 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:32.279 think that they were responsive to the demonstrations that went 307 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:37.079 on on their campus, Absolutely not. Those those demonstrations never 308 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.200 rose to what went on at Columbia, and Harvey would 309 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:43.400 probably disagree with me on this one. But I was 310 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:49.680 appalled when I heard a Columbia professor say in the 311 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:54.119 wake of October seventh that the events of October seventh 312 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:57.400 left him with a feeling of exhilaration. When I come back, 313 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.000 I'm going to ask Harvey to comment on that stage. 314 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:04.279 Harvey is the ultimate free speech advocate here, I guess 315 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:06.079 have a right to be appalled. I'll see if Harvey 316 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:08.799 agrees or disagrees. Here comes the news. We'll be right 317 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:12.680 back with phone calls and Harvey Silverglade on Nightside. 318 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:20.319 Night Side. Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio. 319 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.680 All right, Harvey Silverglade, you're familiar, I think with the 320 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.119 professor at Columbia who, in the wake of October seventh, 321 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:32.279 I think, used the phrase that he had never been 322 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:37.200 so exhilarated than when he watched that. That's a pretty 323 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.400 sick statement for anyone to make, never mind a college 324 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.359 professor that's molding the minds of young people. Does he 325 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:46.559 have a right to make that statement? Yeah, But I 326 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.440 think you also have to be responsible for what you say. 327 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:55.480 Well, Columbia has been a disgrace. My son is an 328 00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:02.880 alum of Columbia. He's very unhappy. What more can I say? 329 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.599 So, I mean, you know, I guess what I'm what 330 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:08.359 I'm trying to say is I'm not asking that the 331 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.319 professor be fired for making that statement, because that obviously 332 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:17.559 because approachment in the First Amendment. But when you think 333 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:22.039 that somehow someone of that mentality, I'm not sure if 334 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.559 he's tenured or he's on tenure track or whatever, that Columbia. 335 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:31.839 That shows to me, within the administration of Columbia, you know, 336 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:35.319 a perversity that I don't quite understand how anyone. I mean, 337 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:39.160 I wonder what his reaction to seeing pictures of the 338 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:40.079 Holocaust would be. 339 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.880 Well, all I could say is Colombia's standing in the 340 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:50.960 university world has fallen dramatically. They are going to have 341 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:54.039 a loss of donations. They're going to have a loss 342 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:59.960 of applications. It's going to destroy a previously great institute. 343 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:05.160 One decision is enough to destroy this great institution. It 344 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.400 shows how fragile reputation is. 345 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:15.400 Yeah, I guess, I guess. Let's let's get to some 346 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:20.440 phone calls here and again, folks, you have Harvey and me. 347 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:25.480 Professor Peaker had promised me ten minutes. He stay with 348 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:27.680 us longer than that. Let me go to Paul in 349 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.119 South Hamilton. Paul, thanks for getting the conversation going. You're 350 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:32.960 on with Harvey Silverglke right ahead. 351 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:40.160 Okay, Dan and Harvey. I wish Stephen was on the phone. Also, 352 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.240 I'm just asking all of you to check your biases 353 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:47.240 at the door now. Harvey, do you know the arguments 354 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:51.319 of Noam Chomsky regarding what free speech is I do. 355 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:57.240 And in principle, it's if you're not for the right 356 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:01.599 of the speech that you despise, whether it's the speech 357 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:04.680 or the right of the person who you despise to speak, 358 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.359 then you're not for free speech at all. And I 359 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:12.960 think it's important that we remember this just two days 360 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:16.079 before the Revolution, in light of what the Bill of 361 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:20.880 Rights means and what an open society is. So I 362 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:24.319 do appreciate when Harvey you do discuss these issues in 363 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.039 a mature and responsible way. Dan, you're trying to go 364 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:32.839 to them with rather weak arguments, Lindsey Grahama the Senate. 365 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.920 Do mean, don't accuse me of something that's inaccurate. I 366 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:41.279 think that the most interesting and probably the strongest argument 367 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.440 that the other point of view could raise, and was 368 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:48.920 raised last night in a couple of other context is, 369 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.640 and this is the way to sharpen the argument is 370 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.839 you're going to take taxpayer money from individuals who have 371 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:01.240 never been to Harvard, never had a chance to going 372 00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:06.440 to Harvard, maybe never even drove by Harvard, and who 373 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:09.319 themselves have worked blue collar jobs and paid a lot 374 00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:12.359 of taxes in their lives, and we're asking them to 375 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:17.799 support universities with which they disagree. It's one I don't 376 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:23.079 know that everyone in America is a is a disciple 377 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:26.920 of Noam Chomsky's positions on free speech, so I wasn't 378 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:29.039 trying to go to him. I knew that Harvey and 379 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:33.079 Steve Pinker would give very adequate answers, and I attempted 380 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:35.279 to give them that opportunity. 381 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.680 Dan If I may just as a quick follow up, 382 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.759 on the floor of the Senate, Lindsey Graham spoke about 383 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:46.079 turning Gaza into a parking lot. It's the same principle 384 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.359 he exercises his free speech right to the floor of 385 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:49.839 the Senate. 386 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:50.319 I get. 387 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:53.440 It's the taxpayers pay for it, yep, just as a 388 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:57.160 college professor or foreign national student does when they're yelling 389 00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:01.680 out at Harvard Square or on the. 390 00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:03.640 I think, well, again, I think when you get to 391 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.480 foreign nationals, you're you're in a different category here. And 392 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.000 Harvey may disagree with me on this, but if we're 393 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.880 accepting people who to come to this country to be 394 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:18.359 educated here and are foreign nationals, they're not US citizens, 395 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:22.680 they have certain rights. I'm not suggesting that they should 396 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:27.119 be summarily deported. No. But at the same time, I 397 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:29.880 do think that depending. I'm very troubled by the arrest 398 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.319 of the Turkish woman because I have seen no evidence 399 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.200 of her doing anything that was directly supportive of Hamas. 400 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:39.119 If all of a sudden you can show me evidence 401 00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:42.720