1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: Live. This is Pet Life Radio. Let's Talk Pets. 2 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,199 Speaker 2: Hello, Felin and friends. Welcome to counta Tude. We have 3 00:00:27,239 --> 00:00:31,679 a very interesting show today. We're going to talk to 4 00:00:31,719 --> 00:00:35,799 the new director of Pause and we'll all talk about 5 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,759 how animals are affected, our cats are affected with animal 6 00:00:39,799 --> 00:00:44,359 welfare and different legal implications. Something yeah, we don't usually 7 00:00:44,439 --> 00:00:47,119 talk about, but it's there and it's important for you 8 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,039 to know about. So stay tuned. We'll be right back. 9 00:00:53,079 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 3: You know the expression cats have nine lives, Well, what 10 00:00:57,079 --> 00:00:59,799 if you can give them one more? But give them ten? 11 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,200 Movement is on a mission to help give cats an 12 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,920 extra life. How with spee and neoter spain or nootering 13 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,719 your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life and 14 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:16,480 it helps control free rolling cat populations too. Learn more 15 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,120 about the benefits of spee and neuter and meet Scooter, 16 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,480 the neutered cat at give Them ten dot Org. That's 17 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,439 give them ten dot Org. 18 00:01:29,519 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 4: Let's talk pets on Petlife Radio dot com. 19 00:01:43,239 --> 00:01:46,079 Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone. I'd like to welcome Sherry Hines. She 20 00:01:46,239 --> 00:01:49,640 is a professor at the University of Georgia Law with 21 00:01:49,959 --> 00:01:53,079 a focus on animal welfare. Welcome Sherry. 22 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to 23 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:55,319 be here. 24 00:01:55,599 --> 00:01:58,159 Speaker 2: I'm excited to have you. Can you share a little 25 00:01:58,159 --> 00:02:00,280 bit about your background for our listener. 26 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,079 Speaker 5: I'm sure absolutely. I have to be honest, I never 27 00:02:03,159 --> 00:02:04,879 thought in a million years, so when I went to 28 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,079 law school that I would be able to specialize on 29 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,719 animal law. I'd always said that I volunteered with animals 30 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,280 and I worked with people. But here I am now 31 00:02:13,319 --> 00:02:16,199 as a professor at UGA, and one of my main focuses, 32 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,039 as you said, is animal law. In fact, I'll be 33 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,919 teaching a class next year called Crimes against Animals that 34 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,719 I'm developing. In terms of my background, I graduated from 35 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,319 law school and worked as a public defender, so the 36 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,599 typical if someone can't afford representations, I won't be appointed. 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,599 That was me for about six and a half years, 38 00:02:32,599 --> 00:02:35,319 so I've had a good exposure to the criminal defense 39 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,400 side of things. Following that, I worked for the Institute 40 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,800 of Continuing Legal Education, so I cut a little of 41 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,000 the education focus and then the vast majority of my 42 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,240 time so about seven and a half years. Immediately prior 43 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,719 to coming to UGA, I was able to work in 44 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:54,400 the Athenstark County Attorney's Office, which was a fantastic opportunity 45 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,479 to start leveraging kind of my interest in animal law. 46 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,240 Because I was able to serve as then advising our 47 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,800 animal services department. I was able to prosecute all the 48 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:09,039 animal ordinance violations that occurred in Athenstark County, to assist 49 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,439 in animal cruelty prosecutions, and to help with dangerous dogs 50 00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:17,319 and legislation drafting. So specifically, I was able to help 51 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,479 with T and R program for cats. So it's been 52 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,479 a really fun ability to sort of shift my focus 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,560 to something I'm so passionate about. In terms of more 54 00:03:27,599 --> 00:03:31,319 of a personal history, I have always been around animals 55 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,080 because my dad was a vet growing ups and we 56 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,840 were primarily a cat household, although we had lots of 57 00:03:36,879 --> 00:03:40,960 other animals. I have volunteered with wildlife. I did that 58 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,879 for a while because, as I'm sure many of your 59 00:03:42,919 --> 00:03:46,520 listeners can understand, sometimes it can be challenging going to 60 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,879 shelters and knowing that you can't save them all. So 61 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:50,919 working with wildlife was a little bit of a break 62 00:03:50,919 --> 00:03:54,360 from that. But since then, so since about twenty sixteen on, 63 00:03:54,599 --> 00:03:58,000 I've focused pretty much all of my volunteer activity with 64 00:03:58,159 --> 00:04:01,879 companion animals, so I've served on the board of multiple nonprofits, 65 00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:05,199 animal related nonprofits. I'm currently on the board of the 66 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,080 Madison Older Animal Shelter, which is a small rule shelter, 67 00:04:09,159 --> 00:04:11,400 and we're very much a working board. I was the 68 00:04:11,439 --> 00:04:15,159 president for five years. I've also served as a foster 69 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,399 parent and a volunteer for lots of different local animal 70 00:04:18,439 --> 00:04:22,560 rescue groups, originally focusing a lot on cats. That that 71 00:04:22,639 --> 00:04:25,319 was how I got involved as a cat volunteer, but 72 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:28,399 my husband has gradually turned me into just as much 73 00:04:28,399 --> 00:04:30,319 of a dog person as a cat person. So I 74 00:04:30,439 --> 00:04:32,839 really I'm one of those people that, like I would 75 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,680 hug an alligator if someone gave me one and I 76 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:36,680 was fairly confident it wasn't going to bite me. 77 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,759 Speaker 2: No, let me ask you about this. Thank you for 78 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,279 sharing your background. Yeah, thank you for coming on the 79 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,399 show today. I have a question because my background is 80 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:46,839 in business. So the only law class I took was 81 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,199 business law, so very different. But that is not too 82 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,879 common unless I missed something researching, it seemed to be 83 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:58,120 not very common. You know, animal law, animal welfare. Is 84 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,160 that something new? 85 00:04:59,319 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 5: That's right? It is something that's newer. There's certainly some 86 00:05:03,399 --> 00:05:05,680 places where it's been established for a long time, Like 87 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,399 Vermont has a really good law school that's been focusing 88 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:10,959 on us for a long time, and there's certainly others 89 00:05:11,079 --> 00:05:14,360 across the nation. But you're right that animal law is 90 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,120 a specialty, is not something typically that people will go 91 00:05:18,199 --> 00:05:21,000 in and only practice animal law. And they are good 92 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,120 reasons why animal law as a specialty is just now 93 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:25,879 sort of coming forward, And I think one of the 94 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,319 main ones is that animal law tends to touch on 95 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:35,439 lots of different practice areas that are not necessarily combined 96 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,839 except as it relates to animals. So animals are considered property, 97 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,439 even though we all love them and we think of 98 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,600 them as our children. Sometimes animals are legally the same 99 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,199 as a car, except that you have to feed it, 100 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:49,759 you have to take care of it in a different way. 101 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,519 So there are property interests related to divorce and wills 102 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,839 and states and things like that that are kind of 103 00:05:56,879 --> 00:05:59,199 one niche area. But then you certainly have like an 104 00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:03,519 agriculture of the animal law field, where people are worried about, 105 00:06:03,639 --> 00:06:08,360 you know, farming and human practices. Then you have issues 106 00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:11,120 related to criminal law, which of course is my focus. 107 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:14,800 We're talking about enforcement and animal protection. So there's just 108 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,680 a lot of different facets and a lot of times 109 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,560 the attorney practice is one isn't going to practice another. 110 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,240 And so that's why you won't come across many people 111 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,800 who practice solely in this area, but you will come 112 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:27,920 across a lot of attorney of attorneys who have to 113 00:06:27,959 --> 00:06:31,360 deal with this in some form of fashion, you know, 114 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:32,639 from time to time in their career. 115 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see the rarity and why it's such 116 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,639 a specialization. We have a few topics I want to 117 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,560 talk about. Let's talk about pet safety and legal considerations 118 00:06:42,639 --> 00:06:47,399 during holiday adoption surges. This is something that is like 119 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,639 a throw on to my side, drives me crazy. So 120 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,680 during the holidays, shelters always see a spike and adoptions. 121 00:06:55,079 --> 00:06:58,800 So from a legal and welfare viewpoint, what risks do 122 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:00,399 you see with that trend. 123 00:07:00,959 --> 00:07:04,319 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a challenge, right, because shelters want animals to 124 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,120 move out because at least they have a good chance, 125 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,240 one hopes of a successful outcome outside of the shelter, 126 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,160 particularly when we're talking about open admission shelters that are 127 00:07:14,439 --> 00:07:18,240 constantly capacity and really struggling to manage that population. On 128 00:07:18,279 --> 00:07:20,399 the other hand, we certainly know that there are a 129 00:07:20,439 --> 00:07:23,800 lot of people who impulse adopt animals during holidays at 130 00:07:23,839 --> 00:07:26,079 the end of the year, around Christmas, and that a 131 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,519 lot of those animals may come back to us, you know, 132 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,120 in the next month to a year, when people realize 133 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,319 that maybe they haven't thought through that decision. 134 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,839 Speaker 2: That's what bothers me, the fact that they al said 135 00:07:36,839 --> 00:07:39,480 they'll adopt, you know, it's puppy and a kitten if 136 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,920 they grow up, any dogs and cats, and people don't 137 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,600 think it through about the dedication, the expense, the fact 138 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,600 that you know, cats scratch things. You know, people they 139 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,240 just think, you know, oh, my little daughter, my little 140 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,480 son wants a little cat, or I'm bored, I want 141 00:07:55,519 --> 00:07:58,519 a cat, little cat, and they don't think it through. 142 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,079 And I just think it's true for the cat to 143 00:08:02,279 --> 00:08:04,040 have to go or the dog they think they're gone 144 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,600 and forever home. Then they're going back. And sometimes this 145 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,959 happens multiple times, but it seems to definitely beg around 146 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:10,639 the holidays. 147 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 5: You're absolutely right, and I think the best thing that 148 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:16,920 shelters can do is to try to educate owners or 149 00:08:17,519 --> 00:08:20,720 adopters and make sure that to the best of the 150 00:08:20,759 --> 00:08:23,680 shelter's ability, these people appear to have really thought through 151 00:08:23,959 --> 00:08:26,480 It's one of the challenges with adoptions that like pet 152 00:08:26,519 --> 00:08:29,879 stores around the holidays, and I think some shelters actually 153 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,679 decide not to do those because it's so easy for 154 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,279 someone to impulse adopt at a store, as opposed to 155 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,159 actually thinking, yes, I want an animal and making it 156 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,840 considered choice. I'm actually going to the shelter to do that. 157 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,759 This is one more step to try to reduce that impulse. 158 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:51,519 You know, theoretically shelters have adoption contracts, but I think 159 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,519 there are a lot of challenges to trying to enforce those. 160 00:08:54,799 --> 00:08:56,120 And at the end of the day, we don't want 161 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,240 to try to force families to keep animals they don't 162 00:08:58,240 --> 00:08:59,840 want that they're not going to care for. So it's 163 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,720 not really a good legal avenue to try to stop 164 00:09:02,759 --> 00:09:05,600 people from returning. It's more about educational on the front end. 165 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: Right right, education on the fun end and have them 166 00:09:09,159 --> 00:09:12,639 think it through. I know some shelters have you, you know, 167 00:09:12,759 --> 00:09:15,639 complete a form and then you cannot adopt out that 168 00:09:15,759 --> 00:09:17,120 same day you have to come back. 169 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 5: Yes, that's a fantastic method to try to make sure 170 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,120 that people are serious. It's one that some shelders don't 171 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,960 use when they are usually at such high capacity and 172 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,279 they desperately need the space. But to your point, if 173 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:32,440 you're making space today, but you know that there's a 174 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,519 good chance or adoptions are going to fail and they're 175 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,840 going to come back you in a couple months, that's 176 00:09:36,879 --> 00:09:39,919 not really a good solution at the end of the day. 177 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,879 Speaker 2: No, definitely not. I told you what infuriates me, what 178 00:09:44,039 --> 00:09:47,759 infuriates you about when people are gifting puppies and kittens 179 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:48,720 during the holidays. 180 00:09:49,039 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 5: I think the thing that's most troublesome to me is 181 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:57,879 the surprise gifts of animals. No one should ever receive 182 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,559 a puppy, a kitten, or even like adult animal as 183 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,600 a surprise gift. I mean, I understand if it's a 184 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,039 small child, that's a different thing. But we have a 185 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,279 lot of people who come to our shelter saying, I 186 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,960 want to adopt a cat for my mom. Your mom 187 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:13,799 needs to come and pick that animal out. I think 188 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:16,879 people forget that when we're talking about cats, it's, you know, 189 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,039 hopefully a fifteen to twenty plus year commitment, and dogs 190 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,480 it's hopefully at least a ten year commitment. And so 191 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,240 those are not things that should be sprung upon someone 192 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,840 as a surprise. Those animal human bonds are really important 193 00:10:32,159 --> 00:10:35,360 and really individual and people need to respect that. Yes, 194 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,440 animals are legally property, but they are very different in 195 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,279 going and buying your mom a teav for Christmas, and 196 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,440 they need to be treated differently, more carefully. 197 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,799 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And I also know that some shelters are 198 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,720 even kind of adverse to adopting out the you know, 199 00:10:51,879 --> 00:10:55,639 cats to older people unless they know that there is 200 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,840 somebody to take care of the cats. You know, somebody 201 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:02,120 that wants to adopt a had that's eighty ninety. What's 202 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,840 going to happen if scofferd It's something happens to the person. 203 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,399 So they want people to really think it through. So 204 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,799 something happens to you, is there someone else in the 205 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,200 family that's going to take care of this, you know, 206 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:13,639 your cat. 207 00:11:13,919 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 5: I think that's a really important point too. It occurred 208 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,120 to me to say one thing because on the earlier topic, 209 00:11:19,639 --> 00:11:22,080 the shelter that I work for, for example, we will 210 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,559 not adopt out if someone says it's a gift. So 211 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,320 that's one way I think shelters can combat that. But 212 00:11:27,399 --> 00:11:29,759 to your point about you know, adopting to people who 213 00:11:29,759 --> 00:11:35,159 are older, I think that's a really challenging conversation to have, 214 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,559 because on one hand, I think we want to really 215 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,320 be clear that shelters are not discriminating as people based 216 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,440 on their age. I mean, realistically, any of us could 217 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,200 be hit by a bus tomorrow, ranks, or we might 218 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,279 have underlying health problems. The same time, you were absolutely 219 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,679 right to recognize as a practical reality that when people 220 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,279 are adopting, you know, a very young animal that hopefully 221 00:11:57,279 --> 00:12:00,919 will live for a decade or two, that planning for 222 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,440 the care of the animals and really important. And I 223 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,159 think this is pretty common, or it should be common 224 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,080 with other types of animals for instance, like certain turtles parrots, 225 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,639 like they frequently outlive their owners because they have a 226 00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:16,240 long lifespan. But I think you're right that we need 227 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,559 to have greater conversations about what is your plan for 228 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,360 this animal so it does have a safety net if 229 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:25,720 something does happen to an owner. 230 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 2: Right, So it's just planning. It just makes sense, just planning. 231 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,320 So right, Okay, we're going to take a break. I'm 232 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:32,039 going to be right. 233 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:36,519 Speaker 5: Back, real people, real stories. 234 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,879 Speaker 6: Our little dog developed this lymph problem at the chemotherapy 235 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,559 lasted for six months, started developing more lymph nose, so 236 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,360 I thought I'd just try carnivore. The lymph nose started 237 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,279 to go down. Then I took them into the vet 238 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:50,200 to him checked out and then there was no signs 239 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:51,360 at all inside. 240 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: My godhead issues that developed into the height and three 241 00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:56,000 months later my ven airing said let's go ahead and 242 00:12:56,039 --> 00:12:56,720 remove the eye. 243 00:12:56,799 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 5: I heard the Carnivore and advertising, so I said. 244 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,519 Speaker 6: You know what, I'm gonna order this product. They did 245 00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:03,919 the procedure, they did all the death and they said, 246 00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:07,200 I don't know where you did this product. They had died. 247 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,639 I've got a labrador. You could hardly lift yourself up 248 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,759 off the door. The treatment was chemotherapy. That's when I 249 00:13:13,799 --> 00:13:16,440 said this could be the ticket. About three weeks you 250 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,080 could tell she was very alert. She was going to 251 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,120 buy my walk and she is just like crime again. 252 00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 2: Well eight six six eight three six eight seven three five. 253 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,320 That's eight six six eight three six eight seven three five. 254 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,279 Speaker 3: Or visit carnivore dot com. 255 00:13:31,399 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 5: That's c A R N I v O r A 256 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:34,600 dot com. 257 00:13:34,759 --> 00:13:38,759 Speaker 3: Use promo code pet life at checkout for fifteen percent 258 00:13:38,919 --> 00:13:42,000 off your order at carnivora dot com. 259 00:13:42,759 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 6: Let's talk past, Let's done. 260 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,919 Speaker 2: Pets talk about radio Headline Radio. 261 00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 7: Pet Light Radio dot Com. 262 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 2: Welcome everyone, We're talking to Sherry Hines, professor of law 263 00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:07,759 specializing in animal welfare. Okay, here's another topic I wanted 264 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:10,320 to talk to you about. What are the dangers of 265 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:15,919 no kill shelter branding and their legal implications. So, for example, 266 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:19,919 no kill is really powerful in this shelter world. But 267 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,279 can shelters really claim to be no kill or are 268 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,759 there exceptions other than you know, a cat passing away, 269 00:14:27,879 --> 00:14:31,120 unfortunately is not killed. It could be that there's some 270 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,759 cats that are sick and that are going to pass away. 271 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:36,039 That's not the same as killed. But what about those 272 00:14:36,039 --> 00:14:39,039 shelters that are no kill? Do they have certain legal 273 00:14:39,039 --> 00:14:42,080 implications that they have to follow so that you know, 274 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,799 if you're going there to adopt, no cats are euthanized. 275 00:14:45,039 --> 00:14:47,879 It's just that's you know, how they work. 276 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,399 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think this is probably one of the most important, 277 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:53,240 if not the most important conversations that's happening in the 278 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,000 animal rescue world right now. So I really appreciate you 279 00:14:56,039 --> 00:14:58,440 asking me about it. I think the first thing to 280 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,960 say to kind of the question you just asked is 281 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:05,320 there's no legal designation of no kill. Certainly no official 282 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,440 legal designation, but what we all have kind of established 283 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,399 in the community that it means is that a rescue 284 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,919 group or a shelter doesn't euthanize more than ten percent 285 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,200 of its population at any given year. And it makes 286 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,279 sense for those of you who are listening who are 287 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,960 upset to hear that they do have this ten percent 288 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,159 google room. It makes sense because there are times when 289 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,200 rescue groups, despite their best efforts, do need to euthanize 290 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,919 an animal. For instance, an animal that is you know, 291 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,159 horribly ill, you know, has cancer, even though it's an 292 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:42,440 end of the life euthanasia, if they're properly recording the 293 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,320 outcomes for their animals, it is still considered a euthanasia. Additionally, 294 00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:51,399 sometimes rescue groups take on animals with really severe behavioral issues, 295 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,600 and despite everyone's best at their efforts at training or medication, whatever, 296 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,519 this animal you know, maybe is bitten too many folks. 297 00:15:59,559 --> 00:16:01,080 We even had a cat, believe it or not, that 298 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,240 was too aggressive and that would attack people, especially if 299 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,519 a cat's declaude right. So it's just one of those 300 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:09,799 situations where there does need to be some little room 301 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,720 for organizations when they have animals that they just can't 302 00:16:12,879 --> 00:16:16,720 safely continue to house or adopt out. But I think 303 00:16:16,759 --> 00:16:20,279 the bigger problem is that we really shouldn't be using 304 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,080 the words kill or no kill to describe shelters or 305 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,759 rescue groups. And I agree with you. It's a very 306 00:16:26,799 --> 00:16:30,039 powerful term. And the reason they do use it is 307 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,360 because factually it's true, right they uthianize less than ten percent, 308 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:36,600 but also because they know the public will support no 309 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,759 kill shelters or rescue groups before they will support kill 310 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,080 shelters or groups because of a perception that you know 311 00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:47,360 the shelters, you know the animals are going to die 312 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,080 the shelter, or other other concerns people have. 313 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: Okay, Lana Claire, by one thing, I don't agree that 314 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,399 aggressive cats should be killed. I know that some cats 315 00:16:56,399 --> 00:17:01,120 will be excessively aggressive once they are declawed, especially baiting, 316 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,559 which is what most people think of when they say 317 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,000 my cat's aggressive. Cat's biting. And that's when cats are 318 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,880 declawed because they have no other way of defending themselves. 319 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,440 So and then when you mentioned the ten percent, it 320 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:17,960 seems like I guess in generalizing the no killed ten 321 00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:22,079 percent are cats and dogs that are there's a small 322 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,799 chance of them making it once they're adopted, they're sick 323 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,799 or they're extremely aggressive. I even had a situation in 324 00:17:30,319 --> 00:17:34,240 my family member adopted a dog, but it wasn't I 325 00:17:34,279 --> 00:17:36,519 don't recall they went to it. They went to a shelter. 326 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,000 This was years ago, and the dog was from and 327 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:42,640 I know we're catituted, but this is a dog story 328 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,599 you guys can relate. So this dog was adopted from 329 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,720 the streets of I think Puerto Rico during a hurricane. 330 00:17:49,079 --> 00:17:51,799 The dog had never been in a home. The dog 331 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,960 literally bit through I don't even know how he did it, 332 00:17:55,039 --> 00:18:00,240 a metal cage, chewed up wooden blinds, and then it 333 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,319 wasn't the fact that things were destroyed. It was the 334 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,759 fact that this poor dog is going to be injured 335 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:10,240 because it wasn't somebody home, you know, twenty four seven, 336 00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:13,680 but there was somebody home enough, and the dog would 337 00:18:13,759 --> 00:18:18,480 need intense, intense training. Now, the shelter I found in 338 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:21,640 this situation because I growed my family member that shelter 339 00:18:21,799 --> 00:18:25,000 was at fault because they didn't disclose this. They wanted 340 00:18:25,039 --> 00:18:28,480 to adopt the dog out, but my family I would 341 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,000 have said, this is not the dog for us, because 342 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,319 we don't have the time to put in to really train. 343 00:18:36,599 --> 00:18:39,440 I mean, this dog needed intense training, was never in 344 00:18:39,519 --> 00:18:43,119 a home. Actually, the dog went nuts, broke through a 345 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,200 metal you know. Was they were great training the dog 346 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,400 create train, chewed up wooden blinds. Then they broke through 347 00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:51,319 again and chewed something else, and they feared for the 348 00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:54,160 dog's safety, so they brought the dog back. I mean, 349 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:59,359 that's an extreme situation, and I normally would go nuts 350 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,720 on a situation like this. If you know, to my family, 351 00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:05,079 I'm going to say, well, we adopted, but we returned. 352 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,279 But in this case, the shelter should have disclosed this. 353 00:19:09,079 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 5: That's right, And I think that's the pressure, right no 354 00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:14,599 kill shelters want to adopt out animals, and everybody of 355 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,960 course gets into this because you want to save animals. 356 00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:19,559 But the reality is that there are some animals that 357 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,359 just really cannot safely be maintained in a house. And 358 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,880 so I think what I really want to emphasize to 359 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,200 your listeners is that instead of saying kill or no kill, 360 00:19:28,319 --> 00:19:31,680 what is more helpful is to think about open and 361 00:19:31,799 --> 00:19:37,400 take facilities versus closed and take facilities. So to be clear, 362 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,759 I think there's value on both sides, Like we need 363 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:41,240 all of these organizations. 364 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 2: Can you clarify the difference. 365 00:19:43,319 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, So, a closed intake facility or rescue group is 366 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:52,640 a group that chooses what animals come into their care 367 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,279 so they can select them. They can deliberately, if they 368 00:19:56,319 --> 00:20:00,279 so choose, pick animals that are younger, friendlier, healthier of 369 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:06,880 desirable breeds, more adoptable. Then open intake facilities which are 370 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,480 ones that commonly have a contract with a local government 371 00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:13,279 or they are in fact a government run shelter, and 372 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,440 they exist to take in every single animal, at least 373 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,359 of a certain species right that needs to come into 374 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,440 a shelter. And a lot of people disparage the open 375 00:20:24,599 --> 00:20:31,039 intake shelters because of necessity, they do have to perform euthanasia, 376 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,559 whether that's because a dog got hit on the road 377 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,240 and desperately needs to be euthanized for humane reasons, or 378 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,119 whether that's because they are overflowing with animals and they 379 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,119 don't have the space and you can't humanly warehouse animals indefinitely. 380 00:20:44,839 --> 00:20:48,480 But those open intake shelters are incredibly important. I think 381 00:20:48,519 --> 00:20:51,680 what the data shows is that if animals don't have 382 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,079 a place to come in, then that's where we have 383 00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:59,240 lots of roaming feral animals. At here where I live, 384 00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:02,960 we had a dog pack, just a roaming group of 385 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,960 dogs that nobody cared for, that attacked to an older 386 00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:10,079 couple and mauled them to death. Oh my god. So 387 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,920 there are very real harms to having large numbers of 388 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,799 animals roaming because animals their owners didn't have a place 389 00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:20,039 to take them, or concerned citizens didn't have a place 390 00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:22,759 to take them, even if it's just concerns about rabies 391 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:26,799 and the spread of disease, right and so, open and 392 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:30,799 take facilities give people the ability to bring that stray 393 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:34,680 dog or that stray cat, or even I'm a terrible person, 394 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,160 right and I took these animals in and I just 395 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,240 don't want them anymore because they have feleaves or whatever. 396 00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:42,559 You know, I'm not trying to pass judgment, but just 397 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,880 you know, you've decided you don't like animals, you don't 398 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,720 want these anymore, and you want someone else to take 399 00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:51,599 responsibility for them. Shelters exist because at the end of 400 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,279 the day, it is better for someone to have a 401 00:21:54,319 --> 00:21:57,680 place to bring these animals where they can get humane care, 402 00:21:58,519 --> 00:22:02,599 then to have them abandoned or mistreated or God forbid, 403 00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:06,400 you know, actually abused or starved, et cetera, in homes 404 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:07,400 where they're not wanted. 405 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,039 Speaker 2: I absolutely agree, because I think cats are more likely 406 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,440 to be well, I don't know. I don't know whether 407 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:18,079 cats are more likely to be abandoned or dogs, but 408 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,240 I mean one of my cats was abandoned and that's 409 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,279 how I got Dennis, my first cat. I think people 410 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,960 are more likely to think that, you know, the cat 411 00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:31,920 can survive out, you know, outside, like so many outdoor 412 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,119 cats and little feral cat communities. 413 00:22:34,319 --> 00:22:37,319 Speaker 5: You're absolutely right. I think it's just more socially acceptable, 414 00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:39,440 at least in the South and Georgia where I live, 415 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,000 for cats to be allowed to roam at large and 416 00:22:43,039 --> 00:22:45,839 for dogs to be contained. Although I will say I 417 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,000 technically live in a pretty rural county where there are 418 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,160 a lot of people who own you know, ten acres 419 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,720 or they have farms, and they do allow dogs to roam. 420 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,240 The downside of that is that roaming dogs lead to carrecks, 421 00:22:57,319 --> 00:23:01,759 They lead to small pet animals being killed because those 422 00:23:01,799 --> 00:23:04,400 dogs naturally have a prey drive, right you know. And 423 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,640 of course we see these larger risks of feral dogs 424 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,039 packing up. But there's all sorts of negative outcomes that 425 00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:14,440 can happen by animals running at large, And so the 426 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,920 real issue is not the open and take shelter or 427 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,000 what people brand is the kill shelter. They are not 428 00:23:20,079 --> 00:23:21,920 the bad people, right. They did not get into this 429 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,400 work because they want to euthanize animals. The real problem 430 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,920 is that we have a serious pet overpopulation problem in 431 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,079 the United States, especially in the South, and we don't 432 00:23:32,079 --> 00:23:35,960 have laws that require speynouter and so people are allowed 433 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,920 to irresponsibly breed their animals and then basically dump them 434 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,960 either like literally outside dump them to be someone else's 435 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,960 problem or to pass away, or they take them to 436 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,519 the animal shelter, which is a better choice of course, 437 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,359 but it's still a huge negative impact on the taxpayers. 438 00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:59,519 A county that Lisa Milett, who's now the state director 439 00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:02,400 of Animal Fair and Vermont. She and I've been working 440 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,599 with Takab County here in Georgia, and they they estimate 441 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,400 if they spent eleven million dollars last year on caring 442 00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:13,519 for just unwanted animals in their shelter system, and that 443 00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:16,799 doesn't count capital expenses. So I think people don't realize 444 00:24:16,839 --> 00:24:19,920 what a huge economic burden it is on governments trying 445 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,119 to manage these problems. 446 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,799 Speaker 2: It is, and there's a lot of resources for spay 447 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,519 and neuters, so it should just be done. Okay, we 448 00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:31,680 have another topic, so let's talk about First Amendment issues 449 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,480 in public comments and online spaces. So how does the 450 00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:39,680 First Amendment apply with regards to shelters? 451 00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:44,799 Speaker 5: Sure, so, as a general principle, the First Amendment protects 452 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,920 people's right to speak freely about almost any topic. So 453 00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:52,440 they want to speak about and where it happens and 454 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,200 I should sorry, let me back that up. As a 455 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,759 general principle of the First Amendment protects in individual's rights 456 00:24:57,799 --> 00:24:59,839 to speak about just about any topic they want to 457 00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:02,960 s speak about from interference by the government as a 458 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,319 general rule or some employers. Right. So the reason that 459 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,599 it interacts with shelters is that shelters are commonly and 460 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,559 by this I'm referring to those open intake shelters are 461 00:25:13,599 --> 00:25:17,720 commonly government run facilities. So if you have a shelter 462 00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:22,319 that is a government entity, then they have to follow 463 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,640 all the same rules protections for individuals related to the 464 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,640 First Amendment. And where that most commonly comes into play 465 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,759 is imagine you have a shelter that is struggling, doesn't 466 00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:37,960 have enough resources, they have too many animals. Volunteers are 467 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:43,000 upset with how things are being managed understandably, and volunteers 468 00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:46,440 begin posting on that shelter of social media page or 469 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,640 on the government's social media page, demanding action, you know, 470 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,079 talking about the bad things that they alleged or happening 471 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,759 at the shelter. You might imagine that a government employee's 472 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:00,880 first instinct might be to hide those or delete those 473 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,720 posts because they're negative. Unfortunately, the First Amendment as a 474 00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:07,599 general rule doesn't allow them to do that, or maybe 475 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:09,960 just say fortunately, right, we want people to be able 476 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,920 to speak when the government creates what we would call 477 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,119 a limited public forum where they can do that, and 478 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,319 social media accounts are such a forum. So for those 479 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,839 who are living in communities where maybe there is some 480 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,279 tension and you're trying to speak up about issues that 481 00:26:27,319 --> 00:26:30,000 you see and trying to affect change, I think one 482 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,240 thing to remember is that the First Amendment does protect 483 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,960 that kind of speech. Now, I will say it gets 484 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,799 a little bit more complicated if you are in a 485 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,559 government employee who wants to speak up about concerns, is 486 00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:42,240 that's outside of my scope today? 487 00:26:42,599 --> 00:26:45,079 Speaker 2: I think in these days you have to be careful 488 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,039 whatever you say, because there's I mean, more than ever 489 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:51,759 my personal opinion, and I'm not going to get political, 490 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,920 but there seems to be more frivolous lawsuits than ever 491 00:26:56,279 --> 00:26:59,559 and settling to that have nothing to do with what 492 00:26:59,799 --> 00:27:02,880 is right or wrong. It's just it'll be cheaper to 493 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,000 just settle. So let's just settle just a lot of 494 00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:08,440 frivolous lawsuits. So do you think the shelters should just 495 00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:14,359 restrict people from social you know, media comments, because there's 496 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,960 a lot that gets twisted out there with social media. 497 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 5: Also. Yeah, the general advice, and I can't give it 498 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,519 any legal advice, but the general rule is that if 499 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,759 you are an organization, particularly government organization, that's going to 500 00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:30,240 create a social media page, which are fundamentally designed to 501 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,160 allow interaction with the community, you do need to allow 502 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,880 them to post just about anything that they choose to post. 503 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,079 There are some limits, like they can't post pornography, you know, 504 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,519 but you'd be surprised even hate speech is actually protected 505 00:27:43,519 --> 00:27:46,359 by the First Amendment. So the best advice that I've 506 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,480 ever heard is, either if you're that uncomfortable with the 507 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:52,880 public possibly making comments, then don't have the social media 508 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,680 page at all, or at least disable the feed. But 509 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,279 then that's what it defeats the purpose of having the 510 00:27:58,319 --> 00:28:00,680 social media account to begin with, right, So I think 511 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,680 the better approach is to sort of try to counter 512 00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:06,640 things with information. Right if someone posts something that's negative, 513 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,440 you can respond and say, thank you so much for 514 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,559 this bringing this concern to our attention. Can we have 515 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,119 a private conversation with you or we'll send you a 516 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,720 private message to discuss this further, Because that way, at 517 00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:19,480 least you're showing that your responsive, that you are paying 518 00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:22,039 attention to the community. And maybe you don't have the 519 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:24,400 best answers right now, or maybe you are working through 520 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,480 some challenging things, but you're trying to be accountable to 521 00:28:27,519 --> 00:28:30,400 your community and you're trying to make improvements. I think 522 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,640 what we have seen here in Athens is that your 523 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,599 volunteer community and those people who are most concerned can 524 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,000 also be your most powerful advocates. So I would encourage 525 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,400 shelters to think more about trying to work with advocates, 526 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:49,680 even if understandably advocates can sometimes be a little bit 527 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,839 too dramatic. I think it's probably the best way to 528 00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:55,799 desgrab that ter be a little bit unprofessional in their communications, 529 00:28:56,119 --> 00:28:58,720 but working with them is always the better outcome in 530 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,119 my experience, if your goal is to help the animals, right, 531 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,559 these are people who are coming at it because they care, 532 00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:08,359 not because they're bad actors. And I think that's an 533 00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:09,960 important thing for governments to remember. 534 00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: Right. So inconclusion, because we're almost out of time. So 535 00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:19,119 in conclusion, if you could recommend one legal change. Now 536 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,920 we're heard globally about you're based in Georgia, but animal 537 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,359 welfare we're mostly talking about, probably the US, where most 538 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,359 of our listeners are. So in conclusion, if you could 539 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,079 make one legal change that would improve animal welfare in 540 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:34,680 the US, what would that be. 541 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 5: Unquestionably, it's mandatory space hooter. 542 00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 2: Oh, that's what I was thinking. 543 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,039 Speaker 5: I mean, I don't want to want to recognize that 544 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:43,039 there may be need to be exceptions, like an animal 545 00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:45,200 that for medical reasons can't be spade, a neutered, or 546 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:48,960 a legitimate reputable breeder. Right. I'm not trying to get 547 00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:51,480 rid of, you know, the wonderful breeds that we have 548 00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:54,920 in the United States and elsewhere, but mandatory spain neuter 549 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,559 is the absolute best way to address peedover population, and 550 00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:01,559 that is the number one problem for animal welfare in 551 00:30:01,559 --> 00:30:04,000 the United States. What I always like to tell people 552 00:30:04,359 --> 00:30:07,480 is that pet overpopulation, the way we currently address it 553 00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:10,319 is like bailing out a sinking chip over and over 554 00:30:10,359 --> 00:30:13,200 and over again. We cannot adopt our way out of 555 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,880 this problem. So the best way to do it is 556 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,920 to resolve it at the source, which is to plug 557 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,680 that leaking boat by making sure that people have to 558 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,160 span youard of their pets so we don't continue to 559 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,599 have this over overwhelming pet overpopulation problem. 560 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,519 Speaker 2: So Jari, thank you so much for coming onctitude. Where 561 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:33,920 can people find out more information about the legalities of 562 00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:35,400 involving animal welfare? 563 00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:38,079 Speaker 5: Sure, So at the University of Georgia Law School, we 564 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,400 have what's called the Pause Clinic, which is the Practical 565 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:44,680 Animal Welfare Skills and that is a great sort of 566 00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:48,200 starting base to find some information and will very soon 567 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,480 have a series of videos. There's a couple that are 568 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,359 already posted that describe a lot of the national challenges 569 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,880 that we're dealing with related to animal welfare. That website 570 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:04,160 is https colon slash slash Pause dot Law dot UGA 571 00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:06,160 dot edu. And if you'd like me to say it 572 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:06,640 without that. 573 00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 2: So pause dot law dot U, g a UGA dot edu. 574 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,799 That's right, okay, and I'm pretty sure we can have 575 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,400 that link on the page for this episode. Again, thank 576 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,200 you so much for coming on Caatitude, and thank you 577 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:26,960 for all you do for the animals. 578 00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:28,359 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. 579 00:31:28,759 --> 00:31:33,039 Speaker 2: I hope everyone enjoyed this episode so informative. I want 580 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,119 to thank Sherry Hines for coming on Catitude and sharing 581 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,200 a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much. Thanks to 582 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:44,079 my cats all Rescues, Dennis, Charlotte and Mollie. Thanks to 583 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,039 my listeners of Tatitude. I appreciate your listenership so much, 584 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,240 and of course a huge thank you to my producer, 585 00:31:51,319 --> 00:31:55,519 Mark Winter for working his magic and making every show 586 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,359 sounds incredible. Now, remember who's the attitude have 587 00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 4: Let's Talk Pets every week on demand only on petlight 588 00:32:06,079 --> 00:32:21,400 Radio dot com.