WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

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<v Speaker 1>where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month,

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<v Speaker 1>patron mug. Sign up now at patreon dot dot NetRocks

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<v Speaker 1>dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot net rocks. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Carl Franklin, an amateur Campbell. We're here for the nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>hundredth and sixty fifth time. Well you are leave it okay,

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<v Speaker 1>fifty fifth free whatever and something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>New guy, I'm the new guy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so uh yeah, we've been doing this a

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<v Speaker 1>long long time. We are the OG podcast, not just

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<v Speaker 1>the OG Developer podcast, not just the OG dot net podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>but probably the longest running podcast that ever was.

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<v Speaker 2>I can get some older NPR shows, but they came

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<v Speaker 2>to podcasting later. Yeah, they were on the radio first

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<v Speaker 2>and then they turned them into podcasts, but we were

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<v Speaker 2>doing it before they were, so the word podcast existing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right. I don't know. Every once in a while,

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<v Speaker 1>I just feel like reminding our listeners to that you're

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<v Speaker 1>listening to the og podcast. There might be some remnants,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, but I don't see anything out there.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, so let's start this show off really good,

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<v Speaker 1>really well, really goodly with better no framework.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, man, what do you got?

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<v Speaker 1>I went looking for trending GitHub repos and yeah, always

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<v Speaker 1>a good place to go. Yeah. So this one was,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, a little far down in the list,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was still in the top twenty. I think awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>Claude code. Now, Claude, of course, is a developed meant.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's really a development environment for doing AI,

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<v Speaker 1>using AI agents to work with code. And this is

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<v Speaker 1>like most awesome list. It's a curated list of tooling

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<v Speaker 1>and hooks and commands and Claude m D files both

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<v Speaker 1>language specific, end domain specific clawed MD files, scaffolding and

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<v Speaker 1>MCP stuff. Like, there's a lot here. Claude is sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the hotness, the new hotness in.

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<v Speaker 2>Terms of tropics of the approach to exactly use it

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<v Speaker 2>through cursor or you know, whatever tool you want.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, yep, yep. So there you go. You know, just

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just coming clean here. I haven't used it. This

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<v Speaker 1>is not my wheelhouse, but I know it's very popular,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know that there's a lot of people even

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<v Speaker 1>in ft next that you know, use it, use claude

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<v Speaker 1>and use entropic and so there you go, awesome claude code, cool, know,

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<v Speaker 1>learn it, love it, and let us know, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're using this stuff and what you think of this.

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<v Speaker 1>Obviously a lot of people think of it, highly of

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<v Speaker 1>it because it's trending on GitHub. But there you have it.

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<v Speaker 1>So who's talking to us, Richard?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, knowing we're going out to the design path, I

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<v Speaker 2>thought I'd dip into the archive a little bit to

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<v Speaker 2>one of the Billy Hollis shows, which you've done a

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of and just recently did another one, This is

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen sixty six, which we did back in November twenty one,

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<v Speaker 2>talking about desktop development specifically. Nice and long time listener

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<v Speaker 2>Rod Falinge had this great comments a few years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>but he said, oh right, yeah, another great episode. I

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<v Speaker 2>always loved listening to what Billy has to say. We

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<v Speaker 2>all do. There were a couple of things you said,

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<v Speaker 2>Billy which really stood out for me. The first was

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of evil by design. Wow, I've witnessed that

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<v Speaker 2>in action very often over the course of the last

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<v Speaker 2>five years or so, we've had to design some truly

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<v Speaker 2>awful looking apps. I think I've made seven or eight

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<v Speaker 2>of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>Of those appsol onely one is in use today. That's

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<v Speaker 2>because the CIO requires people to use it.

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<v Speaker 1>Good Lord, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't think the person who designed this had any evil

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<v Speaker 2>intent when he designed it. I just don't think he

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<v Speaker 2>knows how to make a good UIU as not evil

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<v Speaker 2>just yeah, you know, because they've got that sort of

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<v Speaker 2>banal evil effect, like not paying attention to this is

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<v Speaker 2>in the sense somewhat of an evil act.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, well, Handlen's raisor applies, doesn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, do not? Well, they hold you not attribute to me.

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<v Speaker 2>I also that what you can be explained by incommondance

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<v Speaker 2>is very fair.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it's not really evil. They just don't know

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<v Speaker 1>any better.

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<v Speaker 2>Rod goes on to say, the second thing is the

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<v Speaker 2>reduction in people's ATTENTIONSPN. Oh god, it's so true. I

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<v Speaker 2>love the phrase you used of people being afraid to

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<v Speaker 2>be alone with their own thoughts. I've said the same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, did you say something?

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<v Speaker 2>Hello? What?

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<v Speaker 1>What? Sorry? Can you say? I was thinking of something else.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know why I'm.

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<v Speaker 2>Pleased with myself that I am not afraid to be

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<v Speaker 2>alone with my own thoughts. However, I find that even

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<v Speaker 2>when I am alone with my own thoughts, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>alone for very long, especially at home. I believe you

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<v Speaker 2>have to be intentional about it. For example, being outside,

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<v Speaker 2>I find it much easier to be alone my own thoughts,

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<v Speaker 2>especially when hiking. Anyway, I recommend getting away from the

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<v Speaker 2>day to day to help we reduce the noise and

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<v Speaker 2>just thinking. Yeah, very fair. Yeah. For me, it was

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<v Speaker 2>usually walking the dog. Walking a dog was to.

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<v Speaker 1>Get away, right, Well, now you got another puppy, and now.

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<v Speaker 2>I got a dog again. Yeah, we got another dog.

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<v Speaker 2>And she's a little tricky to walk so far, but

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<v Speaker 2>she's enthusiastic.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you listen to anything while you walk?

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<v Speaker 3>Uh?

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<v Speaker 1>You the dog?

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<v Speaker 2>Usually not when we're hiking in the wilderness because bears. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's usually wise to be aware of what's going on

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<v Speaker 2>in the forest or round where we are. We're in

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<v Speaker 2>the wilderness here, right, this is a rural area. I

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<v Speaker 2>am literally minutes away from Virgin Forest. Zach was your

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<v Speaker 2>bare alarm, though, wasn't he? Zach was a bar alarm,

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<v Speaker 2>and I could try. I watched Zach and then how

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<v Speaker 2>Zach reacted. I knew what was up because he knew

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<v Speaker 2>what was up. But Jojo is just a pop She's

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<v Speaker 2>six months old, and so I've got to look out

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<v Speaker 2>for her for now.

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<v Speaker 1>Jojo is a chicken fried potato wedge where I come from.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's a not a bad description of this little spas,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm I'll go with that. It's you chicken fried

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<v Speaker 2>potato wedge.

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<v Speaker 1>You see.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she's a nutter right now, but you know, six

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<v Speaker 2>months old, it's kind of up. It's a little poodle,

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<v Speaker 2>a little Bernies, a little Azzie chefern, a little border college.

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<v Speaker 2>So she's got a lot going on.

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<v Speaker 1>Rod.

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<v Speaker 2>Great to hear from me again immediately it was a

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<v Speaker 2>few years ago. Thanks so much for the great comment.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure you already got a copy music code

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<v Speaker 2>by but if you'd like a copy of music, goobe.

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<v Speaker 2>I read a comment on the website at don at

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<v Speaker 2>Rocks dot com or on the Facebook, so we publish

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<v Speaker 2>every show there, and if you comment there and everybody

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<v Speaker 2>on the show, we'll send you a copy of mus

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<v Speaker 2>to go buy.

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<v Speaker 1>You can also follow us on all the social media's

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<v Speaker 1>and if you send us a DM there or just

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<v Speaker 1>you know, public message, sure, and we read it on

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<v Speaker 1>the air. We'll also send you a copy of Me

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<v Speaker 1>to Code by Music to Code by Still Going Strong

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two tracks. You can get them at music toocodey

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<v Speaker 1>dot net if you don't feel like writing a comment,

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<v Speaker 1>and the collection is available in MP three flack D

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<v Speaker 1>wave formats. All right, so before we introduced Diana, we

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<v Speaker 1>got to talk about what happened in the year nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>sixty five, sixty five sixty five. More civil rights, more

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<v Speaker 1>Vietnam War. Yes, it just keeps going on. But now

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<v Speaker 1>we have Malcolm X assassinated. We have Bloody Sunday. On

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<v Speaker 1>March seventh, Alabama state troopers violently confronted civil rights demonstrators

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<v Speaker 1>and Selma Alabama, leading to national outrage and support for

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<v Speaker 1>voting rights. This is your America. You know this really happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Richard will probably talk You'll probably talk about ed White

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<v Speaker 1>and space exploration, but for sure, the Sound of Music premiered. Hey, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a movie about Nazis. Hooray, I know it singing

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<v Speaker 1>very strange with Nazis. Nazis, those crazy Nazis. The Muhammad

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<v Speaker 1>Ali defeated Sunny liston of course, on May twenty fifth,

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<v Speaker 1>the Indo Pakistani War. You know, these guys we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about batteries and sisters, you know that were that separated

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<v Speaker 1>over religious differences and cultural differences, and it continues to

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<v Speaker 1>this day and it's very sad. West Germany and Israel

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<v Speaker 1>established diplomatic relations on May twelfth, marking a significant step

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<v Speaker 1>in post World War II relations, and lots and lots

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<v Speaker 1>of other things, more Beatlemania, of course, they you know,

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<v Speaker 1>they were just the superstars of America at this point.

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<v Speaker 1>So Richard, what do you got for space and science

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<v Speaker 1>and all that?

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<v Speaker 2>A little more story on the Ed White bit. So

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<v Speaker 2>this is about the spacewalks. So the Soviets did it first.

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<v Speaker 2>Was alex A Alex Leonov who did the first spacewalk

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<v Speaker 2>aboard the Vauxshad two. So five days later, on Geminy four,

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<v Speaker 2>Ed White does the second spacewalk. Ever, both Alexi and

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<v Speaker 2>ed have exactly the same problem, which is that their

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<v Speaker 2>space suits aren't really well designed for spacewalks because nobody

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<v Speaker 2>had done it before, and so their suits tend to

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<v Speaker 2>expand and stiffen, and so they can't get back in.

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<v Speaker 2>The vehicle oops to the point where, at least in

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<v Speaker 2>Alexi's case, he punched a hole in his suit to

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<v Speaker 2>reduce the pressure enough to get back inside, and Ed White,

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<v Speaker 2>who by all accounts was stunningly fit, was utterly exhausted

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<v Speaker 2>by the time he could get back into his seat

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<v Speaker 2>in the Gementy.

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<v Speaker 1>Four I'm sorry, Ed, I'm afraid I can't do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't get back in. And then later that year,

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<v Speaker 2>the Americans fortially pull ahead in the space race, with

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<v Speaker 2>Gemeny seven and Gemeny six A performing the first rendezvous

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<v Speaker 2>in space. So only they had two vehicles up, but

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<v Speaker 2>they got They were able to maneuve or within less

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<v Speaker 2>than a foot of each other. If they'd had docking equipment,

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<v Speaker 2>they could have docked together. So that was Borming and

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<v Speaker 2>Level in Gementy seven and Sharon Stafford in Geminy six

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<v Speaker 2>A and seven at that time would also set the

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<v Speaker 2>record for the longest BaseFlight at fourteen days, a little

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<v Speaker 2>sportscar like space. Fourteen days. Yeah, probably smelled. Couldn't do it.

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<v Speaker 2>It was hard enough doing road trips with you, my god,

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<v Speaker 2>we got away from each other every day, every day,

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<v Speaker 2>every day, and on the computer side nineteen sixty five

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<v Speaker 2>is the launch of decks PDP eight WOW, famously the

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<v Speaker 2>first mini computer available for less than twenty thousand dollars cheap,

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<v Speaker 2>a bargain so building on machines we've mentioned in the

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<v Speaker 2>past few shows the link and the PDP five. It

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<v Speaker 2>is a twelve bit word originally ship with four K

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<v Speaker 2>could be expanded to thirty two K. It used diode

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<v Speaker 2>transistor logic with what they call it hybrid ICY or

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<v Speaker 2>the flip chip, which had some discrete components on it.

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<v Speaker 2>Later models of the PDP eight would actually go to

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<v Speaker 2>TTL I SES logic.

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<v Speaker 1>It occurs to me that they must have sold a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of these at that price, because you know, small

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<v Speaker 1>businesses or small to medium businesses could afford that.

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<v Speaker 2>They were getting in the realm. They sold the fifty

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<v Speaker 2>thousand units over the run of WOW, six seven different

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<v Speaker 2>models WOW, and the original units didn't have a There

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<v Speaker 2>was no such thing as RAM yet, so when you

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<v Speaker 2>powered up your PDP eight, you hand keyed in on

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<v Speaker 2>the front of it the bootloader to get the paper

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<v Speaker 2>tape running to actually load an operating system. And it

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<v Speaker 2>came with a version of Fortren WOW, and it.

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<v Speaker 1>Sows for computational things obviously, were there any languages other

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<v Speaker 1>than forour trend? I mean that's.

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<v Speaker 2>Eventually, yes, there'll be a basic and a PL one

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<v Speaker 2>and so forth. But initially shipped a forourtrend in sixty

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<v Speaker 2>to five, and of course the successor will be the

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<v Speaker 2>very arguably the most famous deck, the PDPL eleven. But

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<v Speaker 2>this was there were two lines of PDP machines being built,

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<v Speaker 2>a sort of premium one which was the four and

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<v Speaker 2>the twelve and things like that, and then they cost

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<v Speaker 2>one that actually was wildly more popular, which was the

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<v Speaker 2>five in the eight and the eleven.

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<v Speaker 1>Very cool, Richard, I love these little mini geek outs.

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<v Speaker 1>We start to show it now, it's really getting good.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're right at the hub here. I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 2>fascinating to say this machine was built both with Discrete

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<v Speaker 2>Electronics's original models and they were about two hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>fifty pounds each and then when they switched to ICs,

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<v Speaker 2>it dropped down to eighty pounds.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. Very cool. Yeah, all right, Well with that, I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's time to introduce Diana. Diana Mounter as a

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<v Speaker 1>designer with an interest in systems thinking code as a

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<v Speaker 1>material and inclusive design, right, there. I'm so intrigued. Code

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<v Speaker 1>as a material. All right, well, we'll talk to her

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<v Speaker 1>in a minute. Most recently head of design at GitHub,

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<v Speaker 1>she spent nearly a decade shaping its user experience from

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<v Speaker 1>dark mode to copilot. She led the evolution of primer

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<v Speaker 1>Gethub's design system, and later headed the whole design organ

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<v Speaker 1>spanning product, brand research, and design engineering. She's currently taken

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<v Speaker 1>some time off before she starts her next gig at

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<v Speaker 1>Alpha Sense. Diana lives in Brooklyn. That's in New York, folks,

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<v Speaker 1>with her husband and two cats. Welcome Diana, thank.

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<v Speaker 3>You very much for having me on the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah, you're welcome. Thank you for being here. That's some

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<v Speaker 1>intriguing wording there in your bio code as material?

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<v Speaker 3>Is that where you want to start?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know where do you want to start? I

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<v Speaker 1>think the whole thing is intriguing to me.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, Yeah, let's start there. Why not?

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<v Speaker 4>If you if you looked at my website, that would

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<v Speaker 4>reference that. That framing comes from a guy called Wreen

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<v Speaker 4>Madson who had this online book called Programming Design Systems

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<v Speaker 4>that he started to develop. Probably I don't know an

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<v Speaker 4>exact time, but let's say five six, seven, years ago

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<v Speaker 4>or so when design systems were kind of hot and

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<v Speaker 4>a thing that everyone was talking about, at least in

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<v Speaker 4>my world. And he's someone that I got to meet

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<v Speaker 4>and also invited him to speak at my meetup that

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<v Speaker 4>I used to run in New York about design systems.

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<v Speaker 4>And the thought behind this is at least my interpretation

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<v Speaker 4>of what Roun talks about, is that if you think

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<v Speaker 4>of code as just another material in your design toolbox,

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<v Speaker 4>just like a design tool like figma or a pen

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<v Speaker 4>and paper, a sketch pad, it's about knowing when to

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<v Speaker 4>use the right tool for the job. And if you

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<v Speaker 4>have read much about me or seen one of my talks,

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<v Speaker 4>you'll probably pick up fairly quickly that I'm a strong

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<v Speaker 4>believer in designers being able to code, particularly if you're

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<v Speaker 4>working on a product with deep interactions, because I feel

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<v Speaker 4>like you're going to get to a bit of a

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<v Speaker 4>stronger result if you're able to actually prototype out what

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<v Speaker 4>that what that product might feel like, or that tool

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<v Speaker 4>that software might feel like, if you're able to get

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<v Speaker 4>it closer to the to the real result.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's why I believe in code as a material I.

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<v Speaker 1>See, and certainly with design, because you know performance, effects design,

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<v Speaker 1>navigation effects design, Like it's all It's all sort of

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<v Speaker 1>that user experience, isn't it? And code is a big

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<v Speaker 1>part of that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, the ultimate you know, the resulting user experience is

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<v Speaker 4>a factor of it being performance, having utility, and also

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<v Speaker 4>that it is intuitive and sometimes that means also thinking

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<v Speaker 4>about how it looks and feels right, So it's a

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<v Speaker 4>combination of all of those things that actually affect the

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<v Speaker 4>resulting experience.

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<v Speaker 2>We just did a show a little while ago where

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<v Speaker 2>one of the listeners was talking about a designer who

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<v Speaker 2>only worked in Figma and never thought about things like

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<v Speaker 2>responsive design. And I don't know that you could understand

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<v Speaker 2>responsive design if you didn't write some of the code

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<v Speaker 2>for it and play with the effect of this is

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<v Speaker 2>what it looks like on a phone and this is

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<v Speaker 2>what it looks like on a tablet. Like that's just

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<v Speaker 2>tough to do without having some coding chops.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's like incredibly surprising to me, and I think

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<v Speaker 4>it's actually that designer is missing out.

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<v Speaker 3>So two things. One, responsive design is.

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<v Speaker 4>What got me really deeper into coding, at least in

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<v Speaker 4>front end, because I felt like design tools couldn't cut it.

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<v Speaker 4>They can't replicate what the experience would be.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, boy, you said that, I'm with you. I had

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<v Speaker 1>to do a project with Figma and it was great.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, the designers laid it all out and said,

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<v Speaker 1>you got this pixels way and all that stuff. But

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<v Speaker 1>when you implement it, it's it's not responsive. Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 1>so how do you make it responsive?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? I think so. I think, like I loved Figma

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<v Speaker 3>as a tool, like.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a great tool for thought and I can and

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<v Speaker 4>you know, it's interesting how some of these other tools

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<v Speaker 4>are evolving that let you type in some prompts and

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<v Speaker 4>like explore, but still Figma is a bit faster to

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<v Speaker 4>sort of make and direct manipulation, right to make like

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<v Speaker 4>quick changes and like see the results. But yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 4>not code. And so designing in the browser is is

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<v Speaker 4>like was really I think a thing that became popular

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<v Speaker 4>with with responsive and then the other thing that it

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<v Speaker 4>brought with it with like the iPhone coming out and

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<v Speaker 4>having like.

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<v Speaker 3>Everyone's websites on these chription a small screen.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that that brought the sort of way of mobile

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<v Speaker 4>first design, which I think is a really useful way

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<v Speaker 4>to design because it just helps you prioritize and think

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<v Speaker 4>about the hierarchy. It doesn't mean that you're going to

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<v Speaker 4>say this exact design works should be the same on desktop,

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<v Speaker 4>but it helps you really like make those tough calls

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<v Speaker 4>on like what's the actual priority for the user experience

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<v Speaker 4>on this device, So that designer is missing out and

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<v Speaker 4>I hope that they get into it.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, even if even if designers just new enough

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<v Speaker 1>about media queries and how to make how to take

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<v Speaker 1>a static CSS file and turn it into responsive design,

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<v Speaker 1>there isn't much code required to do that. You just

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<v Speaker 1>have to know enough about the CSS to write those

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<v Speaker 1>media queries.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I yes.

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<v Speaker 4>I also think CSS is a little underestimated in terms

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<v Speaker 4>of like how much there is to learn and get

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<v Speaker 4>it right. So you know, that's sort of what got

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<v Speaker 4>me into design systems and things like that, because you

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<v Speaker 4>might want to swap out and a whole entire component

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<v Speaker 4>on a desktop screen, and understanding what that means for

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<v Speaker 4>the markup and.

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<v Speaker 3>How you style things is really helpful.

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<v Speaker 4>That's also why I think, like that's I think the

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<v Speaker 4>developments in in front end and CSS getting better and

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<v Speaker 4>then new framework's coming out is also what led us

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<v Speaker 4>into two people talking about the front of the front

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<v Speaker 4>end and the back of the front end, and this

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<v Speaker 4>sort of beginning of this divide, which which led to

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<v Speaker 4>what I've been talking about conferences and anyone who will

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<v Speaker 4>listen recently, which is design engineering.

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<v Speaker 1>What drew you into GitHub and get and code? Is

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<v Speaker 1>a designer and all that stuff? What got you there?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, I think I had always been dabbling in code

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<v Speaker 4>and had sparked in interest in computers from my late teens.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm old enough to have gone to land parties and

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<v Speaker 4>played Action Quake and Stylecraft and things like that, and

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<v Speaker 4>there I met I started to become interested in, like,

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<v Speaker 4>how do I make the computer work the way I

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<v Speaker 4>want it to work? And then that led into an

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<v Speaker 4>interest in it and programming, And I found myself becoming

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<v Speaker 4>interested in the web when I was working in prints

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<v Speaker 4>and discovered that there was this whole job, but this

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<v Speaker 4>whole area where you could build user interfaces. So later

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<v Speaker 4>that sort of passion and that interest in the intersection

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<v Speaker 4>of code and creativity sort of continued. And so although

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<v Speaker 4>I know my whole career has really been in design,

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<v Speaker 4>I still liked to build things. And when I was

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<v Speaker 4>working in an agency in Sydney, this was in twenty ten,

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<v Speaker 4>some of my colleagues and I went to a hackathon

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<v Speaker 4>and they were using get and get herb to collaborate

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<v Speaker 4>and they were like, hey, why don't you hop on

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<v Speaker 4>to get herb and create an account so you can

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<v Speaker 4>collaborate with this, because then you're a new for an

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<v Speaker 4>end And that was it. And then I was like, oh,

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<v Speaker 4>I want this feels something about this feels really awesome

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<v Speaker 4>because I was in the same place as the engineers.

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<v Speaker 3>And then I really loved version control.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, as a designer, you end up with lots

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<v Speaker 4>of like, you know, homepage design, underscore, final hyphen done,

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<v Speaker 4>final three.

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<v Speaker 2>Right this time?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, and so I like, I really liked that.

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<v Speaker 4>And then I found I made some excuses to keep

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<v Speaker 4>using get and get hub so that I would like

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<v Speaker 4>get more comfortable with the commands. And so I discovered

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<v Speaker 4>jeckyl and ported my uh probably terribly built WordPress site

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<v Speaker 4>over to Jackyl. And Jackyl also felt nice because I

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<v Speaker 4>felt like I was like closer to directly, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>touching the code that was actually resulting in the UI

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<v Speaker 4>and I. Jackyl is a static site generator. It was

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<v Speaker 4>created by I think it was by Tom Preston. Warner

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<v Speaker 4>or he at least contributed to it, one of the

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<v Speaker 4>founders for get hub, and it still I think it

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<v Speaker 4>still exists. I don't Yeah, I don't really use it

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<v Speaker 4>as much now. I think people have gotten interested in

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<v Speaker 4>all sorts of other site generators and a lot of

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<v Speaker 4>folks like working with reacting.

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<v Speaker 2>And front end site still up. All included in the

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<v Speaker 2>show notes, So.

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<v Speaker 3>There you go.

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<v Speaker 4>I was like, I think it is because I feel

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<v Speaker 4>like some people still use it. It was great. It was

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<v Speaker 4>just like really I think easy to jump into it

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<v Speaker 4>as a designer that knewed some HTML and CSS, and

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<v Speaker 4>you could also use it with SASH when that became

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<v Speaker 4>more popular. You could have like includes and things and

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<v Speaker 4>for loops and stuff, so you started to learn the

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<v Speaker 4>basics of.

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<v Speaker 1>Friends nice so you get control flow and CSS.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah exactly.

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<v Speaker 4>But yeah that like just building my site in Jacko

424
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:49.160
<v Speaker 4>and hosting it on get her pages. That was also

425
00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:53.920
<v Speaker 4>way easier than like FTP things and other sort of things.

426
00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:58.920
<v Speaker 4>So that just kept me up with using get and getthub,

427
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.359
<v Speaker 4>and then it just sort of continue to grow from

428
00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:05.759
<v Speaker 4>there and discovering open source and sort of learning how

429
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:08.200
<v Speaker 4>other people built sites and things.

430
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:11.720
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, So you consider yourself sort of a designer

431
00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:13.839
<v Speaker 1>slash engineer, right.

432
00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:15.200
<v Speaker 3>I would.

433
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:21.519
<v Speaker 4>I'm passionate about I'm interested in design engineering as a

434
00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:26.279
<v Speaker 4>role that I think is daily needed in design. But

435
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.960
<v Speaker 4>now I'm a serious boss person, so I don't think

436
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:34.599
<v Speaker 4>I would call myself a design engineer.

437
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.640
<v Speaker 1>I have experience. You have experience clothing as well as designing,

438
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:42.319
<v Speaker 1>so you could probably talk to both of those entities

439
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:45.839
<v Speaker 1>and translate the language that flows between them.

440
00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:51.119
<v Speaker 4>I mean I think sure, yeah, And I helped establish

441
00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:55.160
<v Speaker 4>that role at GitHub. I used to manage design engineers

442
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.279
<v Speaker 4>with that title of helped hire them.

443
00:24:59.799 --> 00:24:59.880
<v Speaker 2>It.

444
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.920
<v Speaker 4>There's a funny quote on the internet. I think it's

445
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.400
<v Speaker 4>by a guy called whose name is Tangerine. I might

446
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:13.079
<v Speaker 4>be wrong, but he says designers who code walked so

447
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:16.519
<v Speaker 4>that design engineers could run. And I think that's that

448
00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:18.440
<v Speaker 4>might not make sense in your head, but there was

449
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:22.559
<v Speaker 4>like the era of everyone in like design coding world

450
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:25.559
<v Speaker 4>in front end talking about designers she could, and then

451
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:27.759
<v Speaker 4>there was other people like designers shouldn't have the code,

452
00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.680
<v Speaker 4>and there's the whole thing. And and now it's like

453
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.519
<v Speaker 4>design engineering and seeing being seen as a as a

454
00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:36.440
<v Speaker 4>more serious discipline.

455
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, tangerine you said was tangerine.

456
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:42.400
<v Speaker 3>I think it is.

457
00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:45.839
<v Speaker 1>I am who would choose a handle named after a

458
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:47.599
<v Speaker 1>fruit or vegetable. I don't understand that.

459
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:52.359
<v Speaker 3>I have no idea talk with never do anything like that.

460
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:57.279
<v Speaker 1>Right, Why what's it do you love? Broccoli? Is your

461
00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:59.119
<v Speaker 1>favorite vegetable? Why broccolini?

462
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:03.920
<v Speaker 4>It is not my favorite vegetable, although many people think

463
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:06.720
<v Speaker 4>that and they like to send me photos of broccolini

464
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:09.759
<v Speaker 4>when they're having that for dinner, which is I should

465
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:12.599
<v Speaker 4>have made just a website out of people sending.

466
00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:13.400
<v Speaker 3>Me broccolini picks.

467
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:25.480
<v Speaker 4>My favorite vegetals actually potatoes the best. Yeah. I don't

468
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:28.319
<v Speaker 4>know what JoJo's are, but I heard you mentioned them earlier.

469
00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:29.640
<v Speaker 3>Chicken.

470
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:31.440
<v Speaker 1>You know, there's something that you eat three in the

471
00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:33.200
<v Speaker 1>morning when you're stumbling home from the bar and you

472
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:35.200
<v Speaker 1>go to the gas station. They have fried chicken, and

473
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:38.839
<v Speaker 1>they have JoJo's, so they dip the wedges and chicken

474
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:39.759
<v Speaker 1>batter and frying.

475
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:43.519
<v Speaker 4>So I haven't really lived until i've I've stumbled, not.

476
00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Enough stumbling at home after that.

477
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:46.880
<v Speaker 1>I don't think you're missing much. They are good at

478
00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:48.559
<v Speaker 1>three o'clock in the morning when you're.

479
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:53.279
<v Speaker 4>You know, okay, I'll so Broccolini.

480
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.720
<v Speaker 1>You just chose this why because the domain was available

481
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.480
<v Speaker 1>broccolini dot net or no.

482
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:00.880
<v Speaker 3>When I was in Australia.

483
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:05.119
<v Speaker 4>I h this would have been about two thousand and five,

484
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:09.480
<v Speaker 4>two thousand and six. Broccolini. You won't believe this was

485
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:14.839
<v Speaker 4>not the famous vegetable that it is now. And I know,

486
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:18.720
<v Speaker 4>I know there's some people that lived their life without

487
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:25.079
<v Speaker 4>knowing about Broccolini. So I was flipping through a restaurant menu.

488
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:28.000
<v Speaker 4>I think it might have been like a Chinese takeout

489
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:30.319
<v Speaker 4>or something like that, and I'd had a few glasses

490
00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:32.359
<v Speaker 4>of wine and was hanging out with a friend of

491
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:36.440
<v Speaker 4>mine and saw Broccolini on there, and I was just like, Oh,

492
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.559
<v Speaker 4>they've run out of vegetable names, so they're just trying

493
00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:42.519
<v Speaker 4>to make it sound more fancy and put eenie on

494
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:43.000
<v Speaker 4>the end.

495
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:45.279
<v Speaker 1>So you thought it was like the tips of the

496
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:46.279
<v Speaker 1>broccoli or something.

497
00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:48.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I was like, yeah, they're just you know, like

498
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:53.480
<v Speaker 4>when they rename like areas in New York neighborhoods in

499
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.359
<v Speaker 4>New York to like make it sell more. I've sort

500
00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:59.799
<v Speaker 4>of thought it was like that sort of thing. Anyway, Okay,

501
00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:02.599
<v Speaker 4>I'm this is the whole story. You can cut this

502
00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:04.799
<v Speaker 4>out if still I think I want to know?

503
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:06.960
<v Speaker 3>I mean, okay.

504
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:12.680
<v Speaker 4>So a few days later, I'm walking along with the

505
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.240
<v Speaker 4>street with my friends and he's like, hey, can I

506
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:19.079
<v Speaker 4>pop into this restaurant. My friend's working as a wait

507
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:22.359
<v Speaker 4>staff here, and I was like sure, And he's chatting

508
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:26.200
<v Speaker 4>to his friend, Kerry, her name was, And I stood

509
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.759
<v Speaker 4>there flipping through the menu and there's broccolini on the menu,

510
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:32.920
<v Speaker 4>of course, and so I just start giggling and I

511
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.440
<v Speaker 4>look up and they're looking at me, like what's wrong

512
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:38.279
<v Speaker 4>with you? And I'm like, there's Broccolini on the menu,

513
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:44.440
<v Speaker 4>and they're like yeah. And so it turns out Kerry

514
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:48.119
<v Speaker 4>is looking for a housemate. About a month later, put

515
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:51.400
<v Speaker 4>me in a phone as Broccolini Girl because she cann't

516
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.720
<v Speaker 4>didn't either didn't remember my name or didn't want to

517
00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:57.279
<v Speaker 4>because she thought this was funnier.

518
00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:00.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my neighbors in my contacts as Laura next door.

519
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:04.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah context, Yeah, it helps.

520
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:09.359
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. She she told all her friends that this girl

521
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.559
<v Speaker 4>called Broccolini was moving in and they would call me

522
00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:15.799
<v Speaker 4>bros and broccols, and half of them didn't know that

523
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:18.519
<v Speaker 4>wasn't my actual name. So and so it's kind of

524
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:21.359
<v Speaker 4>a joke yeah, yeah, so when I had to make

525
00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:22.559
<v Speaker 4>my Twitter handle.

526
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:25.759
<v Speaker 2>An insight and not to be too geek out on

527
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:28.799
<v Speaker 2>this whole thing, but broccolini is a recent invention, like

528
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:32.319
<v Speaker 2>this is a selectively bred hybrid of broccoli and guy

529
00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:33.640
<v Speaker 2>Land nineties.

530
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.319
<v Speaker 3>Hence why it wasn't all that famous.

531
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:39.000
<v Speaker 1>So it's a new new thing.

532
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:42.160
<v Speaker 3>It was literally in the nineties, the new broccoli.

533
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, plenty of the Elder did not write about this one.

534
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:47.519
<v Speaker 2>He wrote about cauliflower.

535
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:48.680
<v Speaker 1>But not this one. Yeah, he wrote of a lot

536
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.799
<v Speaker 1>of wacky stuff. That guy was nuts. So I just

537
00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:55.759
<v Speaker 1>want to talk about broccolini dot net. For a designer,

538
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:59.640
<v Speaker 1>this is really minimalist your website. I know it was.

539
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.640
<v Speaker 1>It's obviously intentional, but wow, I mean looks like it

540
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:08.039
<v Speaker 1>was printed on a typewriter and you know, with that

541
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:12.359
<v Speaker 1>font and just they're all no nonsense stuff, And I

542
00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:16.000
<v Speaker 1>just wonder, like, what does that say about you as

543
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:16.640
<v Speaker 1>a designer.

544
00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:19.880
<v Speaker 4>Oh my gosh, Now I'm going to be looking at

545
00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:22.240
<v Speaker 4>my website in terror. I think I need to I

546
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:24.079
<v Speaker 4>definitely need to redesign it.

547
00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:28.920
<v Speaker 1>I think it's awesome because websites should inform first, right,

548
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.079
<v Speaker 1>and I think, especially like if you're a designer. If

549
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:36.039
<v Speaker 1>you if you picked an elaborate design to go with

550
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:39.400
<v Speaker 1>for your website, well that's a statement. Also that's not

551
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:44.240
<v Speaker 1>good because you're pigeonholing yourself into that design. People will

552
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:46.359
<v Speaker 1>judge you by that. Well, that's not what I want

553
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:49.039
<v Speaker 1>in a design. And so I like the way that

554
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:52.440
<v Speaker 1>you did this stripped down because it's all just information.

555
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:58.160
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think I do like minimalism. One of the

556
00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:01.720
<v Speaker 4>sort of sayings we have herb and I'm I think

557
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:07.400
<v Speaker 4>it's from Carl n zenovige hub is everything added dilutes

558
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:12.920
<v Speaker 4>everything else. And I definitely that definitely is something that

559
00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:16.200
<v Speaker 4>influences the way I design or the feedback I give

560
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:21.640
<v Speaker 4>to my team. But I also there's a little tiny

561
00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:25.359
<v Speaker 4>bit of color on there, and it's it's because so

562
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:29.839
<v Speaker 4>I am. I am known for wearing a lot of black.

563
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:33.000
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's not just because I live in New

564
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:37.480
<v Speaker 4>York and it's just I just like black.

565
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:39.240
<v Speaker 3>I think it.

566
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is one of the rare occasions. And Richard

567
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.240
<v Speaker 1>will tell you that I'm not wearing a black T shirt.

568
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:47.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm wearing a gray T shirt. But my uniform is

569
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:49.319
<v Speaker 1>a black T shirt and black shirt.

570
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.359
<v Speaker 4>It's okay because gray is a shade of black, So

571
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:58.359
<v Speaker 4>in my book, that's that's permitted. Yeah, so I think

572
00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:03.400
<v Speaker 4>I've been trying to I do like experimenting with splashes

573
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:08.000
<v Speaker 4>of color. So I've got some of those bright gradient colors.

574
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:12.240
<v Speaker 4>I love contrasts, even with myself. Well, no one's going

575
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:17.160
<v Speaker 4>to see the video, but I've got greenish nails right

576
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:19.880
<v Speaker 4>now because it's just a way to express.

577
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:21.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it looks like it reminds me of like a

578
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:26.680
<v Speaker 1>fifty seven Chevy or milkshake machine, you know, like that

579
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:28.640
<v Speaker 1>ceramic kind of green.

580
00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.720
<v Speaker 4>It was actually meant to be an homage to the

581
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:36.359
<v Speaker 4>contributions graph, but I was limited by what exact colors

582
00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:36.799
<v Speaker 4>of green.

583
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.279
<v Speaker 3>The nail technician nice.

584
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:42.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you can take the contribution graphs, all the

585
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>different greens that it generates to depending on a number

586
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:48.000
<v Speaker 2>of contributions in per block, you'd say, this is your palette,

587
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:50.000
<v Speaker 2>make each finger a different one of these.

588
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:50.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

589
00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:53.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, Well we're overdue for a break, so

590
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:55.440
<v Speaker 1>we'll take a break. We'll come on back and we'll

591
00:32:55.480 --> 00:32:58.359
<v Speaker 1>talk to Diana Mounter about what else she's thinking about

592
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:02.880
<v Speaker 1>these days. So stick around. We'll be Did you know

593
00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:06.000
<v Speaker 1>you can lift and shift your dot net framework apps

594
00:33:06.039 --> 00:33:10.440
<v Speaker 1>to virtual machines in the cloud. Use the elastic beanstock

595
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:14.759
<v Speaker 1>service to easily migrate to Amazon EC two with little

596
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:19.119
<v Speaker 1>or no changes. Find out more at aws dot Amazon

597
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:27.960
<v Speaker 1>dot com, slash Elasticbeanstock. And we're back at dot in Aros.

598
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm Carl Franklin, as my friend Richard Campbell. Hey, and

599
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.480
<v Speaker 1>we're talking to Diana Mounter and uh, we're talking about

600
00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.640
<v Speaker 1>design and code and GitHub and all these great things.

601
00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:38.279
<v Speaker 1>And by the way, if you don't want to hear

602
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:41.640
<v Speaker 1>these messages, consider becoming a five dollars a month patron.

603
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:43.920
<v Speaker 1>Go to Patreon at dot and irocks dot com to

604
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:46.039
<v Speaker 1>get an ad free feed. I don't want to let

605
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.759
<v Speaker 1>go of code as a material for no other reason.

606
00:33:48.759 --> 00:33:51.119
<v Speaker 1>The heresy that not all problems can be solved with code.

607
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:54.640
<v Speaker 3>Do you want to salk about that more?

608
00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:00.759
<v Speaker 2>But I think the implication, of course, is that not

609
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:03.880
<v Speaker 2>all problems are solved with code. I'd be interested in

610
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:08.320
<v Speaker 2>your design view there about when do we decide to

611
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:10.039
<v Speaker 2>code when working through a design?

612
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:12.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh. Yeah.

613
00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:15.559
<v Speaker 4>I think it's a thing that you sort of inherently

614
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:21.239
<v Speaker 4>know as the more that you design. I think on

615
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:24.400
<v Speaker 4>the one end of the scale. So I guess when

616
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.760
<v Speaker 4>you start putting boxes and arrows and other shapes on

617
00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:33.760
<v Speaker 4>a page, you're starting to limit what people are going

618
00:34:33.800 --> 00:34:38.599
<v Speaker 4>to imagine from that design. And so I think that

619
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:42.400
<v Speaker 4>you've got to be really careful about am I at

620
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:46.960
<v Speaker 4>the stage where I want people to start imagining interacting

621
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:51.559
<v Speaker 4>with this, or am I still really trying to immerse

622
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:55.599
<v Speaker 4>in the space and think about what are their priorities.

623
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:56.400
<v Speaker 3>And the tasks and the flow.

624
00:34:56.920 --> 00:35:00.119
<v Speaker 4>So I think I don't mean this to be a

625
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:02.760
<v Speaker 4>cop out, but it's really about when you're at the

626
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.159
<v Speaker 4>stage where you, as a designer are trying to get

627
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.360
<v Speaker 4>a feel for the interactions and the flow and whether

628
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:11.639
<v Speaker 4>this map that you've sort of planned out in your

629
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:15.519
<v Speaker 4>head or in a Figma file or whatever actually makes

630
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:17.199
<v Speaker 4>sense when you use it.

631
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:18.960
<v Speaker 3>And it's also because it's.

632
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:23.719
<v Speaker 4>You know, designing code and in design tools or sketching

633
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:25.880
<v Speaker 4>is both for you and also the people that you're

634
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:28.679
<v Speaker 4>trying to communicate it to. And the part of the

635
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:32.760
<v Speaker 4>job of a designer is to help people imagine what

636
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:35.679
<v Speaker 4>this end result might feel like. It's not just what

637
00:35:35.719 --> 00:35:37.559
<v Speaker 4>it looks like, it's what it's going to feel like

638
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:40.199
<v Speaker 4>to use. And so I think that's when you want

639
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:45.519
<v Speaker 4>to move into into code, and you know, not every

640
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:49.280
<v Speaker 4>designer is really comfortable with that. You can create great

641
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:54.000
<v Speaker 4>prototypes using other tools. But for designers that can code,

642
00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:57.639
<v Speaker 4>they know when to hop in to a text editor

643
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:01.800
<v Speaker 4>and start developing their work. And some of them that

644
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:04.679
<v Speaker 4>do this a lot, they might have presets set up,

645
00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:06.599
<v Speaker 4>they might use particular.

646
00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:09.519
<v Speaker 3>Tools that they're very familiar with.

647
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:15.000
<v Speaker 4>I getthub our design system was primer, and so if

648
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.559
<v Speaker 4>you're working at a company with a design sist, you

649
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:20.119
<v Speaker 4>might want to pull that in so that you can

650
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:25.679
<v Speaker 4>get closer to the production like quality result.

651
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:30.599
<v Speaker 2>Basically, sure, because adjust a position of design only knowing

652
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:33.960
<v Speaker 2>that the application is invariably interactive, Like you can go

653
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:37.599
<v Speaker 2>to Cody and not enough design and you have a mess.

654
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:40.360
<v Speaker 2>But if you think too statically, it's not how the

655
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:43.400
<v Speaker 2>code actually works. So there's some crossover there. That's the

656
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:44.119
<v Speaker 2>right point.

657
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:48.039
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And I think that that makes me think about

658
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:51.880
<v Speaker 4>something that I see both developers and designers struggling with.

659
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:53.719
<v Speaker 3>Or I don't know.

660
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:57.840
<v Speaker 4>Actually, to be fair, it's not always the individual contributors,

661
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:02.400
<v Speaker 4>it's sometimes their bosses. Is the idea that it's okay

662
00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:06.239
<v Speaker 4>to throw away code or throw away a design. I

663
00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:12.199
<v Speaker 4>think experimentation is really really valuable. I think that design

664
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:18.079
<v Speaker 4>can de risk the end result, but because you can more,

665
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:21.039
<v Speaker 4>I think it's perceived that it's cheaper to throw away

666
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:23.320
<v Speaker 4>design than throw away something that's built.

667
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:24.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

668
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:26.000
<v Speaker 1>I tend to agree.

669
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:28.239
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty normal for you to iterate on designs, but

670
00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:30.599
<v Speaker 2>it's not that normal to iterate on code. It's like

671
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:33.599
<v Speaker 2>the moment you've checked it in, it's kind of permanent.

672
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:36.159
<v Speaker 1>No, I don't agree with that. I don't agree. I

673
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:37.960
<v Speaker 1>mean one of the reasons you use a system like

674
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:40.199
<v Speaker 1>GitHub is so that, oh, that didn't work. Let's go

675
00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:43.159
<v Speaker 1>back to this, to this commit and start from there

676
00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:45.280
<v Speaker 1>and keep it on the branch. Yeah. I want to

677
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:48.519
<v Speaker 1>talk about primer, but first I need to ask you

678
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:51.719
<v Speaker 1>this question. You're obviously a design expert, and you go

679
00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:54.920
<v Speaker 1>into companies and you're talking about design and a meeting

680
00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:59.880
<v Speaker 1>and you know, Bob from backups says, hey, I got

681
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:02.840
<v Speaker 1>it design that I did in you know, Figma or whatever.

682
00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:07.719
<v Speaker 1>Let's use this and it sucks. How do you gently

683
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:10.880
<v Speaker 1>tell that person to go pound sand?

684
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:17.760
<v Speaker 4>So is Bob a designer or is he's like a

685
00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:18.599
<v Speaker 4>product manager?

686
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:21.920
<v Speaker 1>It's like an it guy he fixes the printers, you know, Yeah,

687
00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.920
<v Speaker 1>and he's got this idea for a design and he's

688
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:26.320
<v Speaker 1>trying to impress you or whatever.

689
00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:31.800
<v Speaker 4>Okay, So first off, I think that this happens all

690
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:34.559
<v Speaker 4>the time with designers, and you have to learn how

691
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:36.320
<v Speaker 4>to respond to these moments.

692
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:38.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And what.

693
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:40.920
<v Speaker 4>I would say, and I had to learn myself, is

694
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:49.000
<v Speaker 4>approach those situations with curiosity versus like rage and seeing

695
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:50.920
<v Speaker 4>you read I have to explain.

696
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.800
<v Speaker 1>You have to explain why it's not a good design, right.

697
00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:57.840
<v Speaker 3>Well, not actually try and understand why they think it

698
00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.599
<v Speaker 3>is a good design, Okay, Like.

699
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:03.000
<v Speaker 4>What problem are they thinking they are solving with this thing?

700
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:07.000
<v Speaker 4>And then because that helps you understand the intent and

701
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.599
<v Speaker 4>what their motivations were, and that puts you in a

702
00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:14.159
<v Speaker 4>better position to then ask follow up questions that hopefully

703
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:18.719
<v Speaker 4>also get them to realize that think it through. Maybe

704
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:22.840
<v Speaker 4>this isn't the best results, So like why, so why.

705
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:23.320
<v Speaker 3>Did you go with this?

706
00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:26.400
<v Speaker 1>What if it's just over the top, like a flaming

707
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:31.239
<v Speaker 1>logo or something, you know, just like something ridiculous marquee, Yeah,

708
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:38.840
<v Speaker 1>justly ridiculous that belongs in the nineties. I mean, yeah,

709
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:40.679
<v Speaker 1>that's that's a good effort.

710
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:44.559
<v Speaker 4>But I think you want to you want to do

711
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:47.519
<v Speaker 4>the yes and response. It depends is if this person

712
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:51.800
<v Speaker 4>has got a lot of clout in the in the room,

713
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:54.880
<v Speaker 4>who's the most important person in the room type situation,

714
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:57.800
<v Speaker 4>I think you can you can probably be a bit

715
00:39:57.880 --> 00:39:58.559
<v Speaker 4>more direct.

716
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:00.880
<v Speaker 3>And then the other things that you can use to.

717
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:06.599
<v Speaker 4>Propose that that solution may not work is like, if

718
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.280
<v Speaker 4>you have a brand, Like even if you don't actually

719
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.800
<v Speaker 4>have a design system or a brand guide, you can say, hey,

720
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:13.920
<v Speaker 4>I don't feel like this is going to be cohesive

721
00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:15.280
<v Speaker 4>with our design language.

722
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:16.639
<v Speaker 3>If we look at what exists.

723
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:19.960
<v Speaker 4>You can also I'm taken this like seriously, and now

724
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.800
<v Speaker 4>I'm wondering if you would just like let's have a

725
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:22.400
<v Speaker 4>laugh with this.

726
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:28.320
<v Speaker 2>No, No, you're clearly right, Diana, Like, yeah, there was

727
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.679
<v Speaker 2>a reason they presented that, And you've got to get

728
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.840
<v Speaker 2>to the core reason because right, probably their example isn't

729
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:35.119
<v Speaker 2>resonating particularly well.

730
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:37.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but they may they may have a good reason

731
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:38.239
<v Speaker 1>for doing it. Yeah.

732
00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:40.760
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And you can use as a designer, you know

733
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:45.599
<v Speaker 4>you have the ammunition you have against this design is

734
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:49.760
<v Speaker 4>like what is written down as as the guidelines for

735
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:52.519
<v Speaker 4>your brand and for the product brand and the design system.

736
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:56.000
<v Speaker 4>If you have one, you have the user data, like

737
00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:59.559
<v Speaker 4>what insights do you have either from metrics or from

738
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:02.920
<v Speaker 4>interview with users, so that you know, like you know,

739
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:07.199
<v Speaker 4>turning the conversation into what is right for the customer

740
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:10.480
<v Speaker 4>and not making it about your design versus design it

741
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:11.440
<v Speaker 4>really helps.

742
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:15.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, let's talk about Primer. Tell at first,

743
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:17.239
<v Speaker 1>I've heard of it, so tell me what it is.

744
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:20.960
<v Speaker 4>It is a it's a design system. It's gitthrb's design system.

745
00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:24.800
<v Speaker 4>It's what we use to design and build are UI.

746
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:33.840
<v Speaker 4>It includes everything from design tokens, a CSS framework, to

747
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:42.039
<v Speaker 4>view components which is the Rails components solution and React components,

748
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:46.280
<v Speaker 4>and things like octacons which is our icon system, and

749
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:48.960
<v Speaker 4>all of the you know, tooling and other bits and

750
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:50.800
<v Speaker 4>bobs that help run the whole system.

751
00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:51.719
<v Speaker 1>And fonts too.

752
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:55.800
<v Speaker 4>I imagine we use system fonts for the most part,

753
00:41:55.880 --> 00:41:59.559
<v Speaker 4>but actually, to be fair, yes, in our brand, our

754
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:05.320
<v Speaker 4>Primer brand system, we use Mona sands and Hubot sands,

755
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:08.920
<v Speaker 4>which is which are our variable fonts that are you

756
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:16.719
<v Speaker 4>designed with in collaboration with a font foundry i think,

757
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:21.920
<v Speaker 4>but customized and designed with in collaboration with GitHub designers,

758
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:28.639
<v Speaker 4>and so they're used on our marketing websites, homepage, feature pages,

759
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:29.360
<v Speaker 4>that type of thing.

760
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:34.119
<v Speaker 1>Cool design systems. I'm thinking of things like material right,

761
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:37.039
<v Speaker 1>So it's it's along those lines in terms of you

762
00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:38.559
<v Speaker 1>know what the design.

763
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.760
<v Speaker 3>System is, Yes, for sure. Yeah, it's a.

764
00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:47.559
<v Speaker 4>It contains literal code components that you can pull into

765
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:52.800
<v Speaker 4>your application, as well as guidelines on how to use

766
00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:58.239
<v Speaker 4>those components, UY components in combination with each other.

767
00:42:59.039 --> 00:42:59.920
<v Speaker 1>What do you think about BOOTS.

768
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:06.719
<v Speaker 4>I think that it's helped the community think about design

769
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:10.119
<v Speaker 4>systems and thinking more systematically about what we used to

770
00:43:10.119 --> 00:43:17.039
<v Speaker 4>call star guides and or CSS frameworks. I think that

771
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:22.119
<v Speaker 4>it is. It was the most widely used I think

772
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:24.840
<v Speaker 4>UI framework for a very very long time. I'm not

773
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.159
<v Speaker 4>sure if it still is because I know there's things

774
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:30.679
<v Speaker 4>like Tailwind has become very popular.

775
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:34.079
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, I used to work with.

776
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:37.280
<v Speaker 4>Mdo who was one of the creators. He used to

777
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:41.679
<v Speaker 4>work at GitHub, and I think it's great that it exists.

778
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:45.559
<v Speaker 4>I haven't used it a ton because they I preferred

779
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:52.199
<v Speaker 4>a different technique for UI called often called functional CSS,

780
00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:56.559
<v Speaker 4>which is sort of similar to Tailwind, although they're doing

781
00:43:56.599 --> 00:44:02.599
<v Speaker 4>some other stuff now. So yeah, so I think that

782
00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:05.400
<v Speaker 4>it's glad that it's exists and it's moved the industry forward,

783
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:09.920
<v Speaker 4>but I think it doesn't take out the need to

784
00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:13.840
<v Speaker 4>understand CSS or front ends and javascripts.

785
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:18.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I agree. What I liked about it and

786
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:21.000
<v Speaker 1>what I still like about it is the standardization of

787
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:26.039
<v Speaker 1>class names so that people can easily create their own

788
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:29.119
<v Speaker 1>themes and they obviously there's a big marketplace for them.

789
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:31.519
<v Speaker 1>Some are free and some are for sale. But just

790
00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:36.440
<v Speaker 1>by you know, changing out your Bootstrap men's CSS file,

791
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:41.159
<v Speaker 1>you know, everything can just completely change. And I kind

792
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:45.639
<v Speaker 1>of liked that about it, And I wonder if you've

793
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:50.559
<v Speaker 1>used some of those ideas in putting Primer together or

794
00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:53.519
<v Speaker 1>did you have anything to do with Primer. Was this

795
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:54.880
<v Speaker 1>something that you worked on?

796
00:44:55.159 --> 00:45:02.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yes, yeah, I liked the prim team about I

797
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:07.519
<v Speaker 4>think it. I started working on GitHub's CSS and Primer

798
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:10.440
<v Speaker 4>pretty much from when I started.

799
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:12.920
<v Speaker 1>Sorry I'm looking right at it was right in your

800
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:14.320
<v Speaker 1>bio and I missed out. I'm sorry.

801
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:18.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so yeah, that's something I worked on for about

802
00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:21.559
<v Speaker 4>I think it must have been about six years of

803
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:26.360
<v Speaker 4>my time at GitHub. It was just me and one

804
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:33.360
<v Speaker 4>other designer developer called John Rohan. Shout out to him,

805
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.679
<v Speaker 4>and so they had been developing primer before I joined.

806
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:44.679
<v Speaker 4>Marcado or Mdo as his username is on the internets, who,

807
00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:47.039
<v Speaker 4>as we just discussed, was one of the founders of

808
00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:52.920
<v Speaker 4>Bootstrap open sourced primer in twenty fifteen, about six months

809
00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:55.360
<v Speaker 4>before I joined. And one of the reasons I joined

810
00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:58.840
<v Speaker 4>GitHub actually because I was already working in design systems

811
00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:02.639
<v Speaker 4>and I was really excited to see a company opening

812
00:46:03.159 --> 00:46:07.559
<v Speaker 4>like open sourcing their company design system because it helped

813
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:12.719
<v Speaker 4>me learn what that meant when you're actually working on

814
00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:18.159
<v Speaker 4>a product. Because things like Bootstrap, and there's other things

815
00:46:18.199 --> 00:46:21.280
<v Speaker 4>like suit CSS and based CSS and stuff that were

816
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:26.000
<v Speaker 4>out the time, were agnostic to the product that they

817
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:29.599
<v Speaker 4>were used for. And while that was that's really helpful.

818
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:32.840
<v Speaker 4>It's a good way to think about working on a

819
00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:36.440
<v Speaker 4>product and its design system because it helps you come

820
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:39.440
<v Speaker 4>up with a more robust solution. If you're thinking, what

821
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.840
<v Speaker 4>if this was an open source system and anyone could

822
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:45.559
<v Speaker 4>use it, how would I make this part How this

823
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:51.159
<v Speaker 4>make this pattern really reusable and intuitive? But you still,

824
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:53.599
<v Speaker 4>when you're working on a particular product like GitHub, you

825
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:57.320
<v Speaker 4>still have to, you know, make the system a little

826
00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:00.519
<v Speaker 4>biased to that to actually support what the product needs.

827
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:06.159
<v Speaker 4>So so yeah, I am so I'm sure that mdo

828
00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:10.440
<v Speaker 4>when he joined Influence Primer. But then it, yeah, was

829
00:47:10.519 --> 00:47:13.360
<v Speaker 4>and I did work with him sometimes.

830
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:15.679
<v Speaker 3>I also we also had.

831
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:20.320
<v Speaker 4>I was a little bit bullish, I think when I

832
00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:22.920
<v Speaker 4>was younger and didn't sort of go, oh my gosh,

833
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:27.280
<v Speaker 4>it's mark Otto, I should like just agree with everything.

834
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:29.800
<v Speaker 4>I was like, no, I think this way is better.

835
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:33.199
<v Speaker 4>And so we would have some like heated debates, but

836
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:36.760
<v Speaker 4>actually I think we both ended up really valuing that

837
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:41.559
<v Speaker 4>and I think you know that leads you to a

838
00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:44.119
<v Speaker 4>better result if you have to sort of, you know,

839
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:48.800
<v Speaker 4>defend and explain why you think a particular approach was

840
00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:51.320
<v Speaker 4>the right approach. And I, you know, I wasn't always

841
00:47:51.400 --> 00:47:54.639
<v Speaker 4>right and he wasn't always right, but it was great

842
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:57.719
<v Speaker 4>to Yeah, it was a great experience.

843
00:47:57.880 --> 00:47:59.960
<v Speaker 1>That's a great spirit of learning though, you know, when

844
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:03.679
<v Speaker 1>you feel comfortable enough to you know, not be intimidated

845
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:06.840
<v Speaker 1>to the point where you can't express your ideas, that's

846
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:09.199
<v Speaker 1>a great working relationship that, you know, and I'm sure

847
00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:10.440
<v Speaker 1>her respects you a lot for that.

848
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:11.079
<v Speaker 3>I hope.

849
00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:19.039
<v Speaker 2>So this progression for GitHub's front end and so forth

850
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:23.400
<v Speaker 2>to react, is that just a componentization made sense? Like

851
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:26.119
<v Speaker 2>why do you land there when there's all these other

852
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:27.920
<v Speaker 2>web framework approaches.

853
00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:31.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean it was quite a journey to actually

854
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:33.039
<v Speaker 4>land there, to be honest.

855
00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:36.360
<v Speaker 2>I like, is it worth it? That's a lot of work.

856
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:40.599
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I don't think the stories ended there yet,

857
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:44.679
<v Speaker 4>so I can't tell you, but I can talk to

858
00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:47.119
<v Speaker 4>a bit to the transition and how we got there,

859
00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:51.480
<v Speaker 4>because I do think that is an interesting learning experience.

860
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:57.440
<v Speaker 4>So when I joined GETTHRB, I had just left Etsy

861
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:03.639
<v Speaker 4>where they had just started to work with React, and

862
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:08.519
<v Speaker 4>I things like CSS and JS frameworks, which I also

863
00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:13.159
<v Speaker 4>know the community got pretty divided over. Things like styled

864
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:20.639
<v Speaker 4>components and emotion were coming out. Another popular part of

865
00:49:21.079 --> 00:49:25.320
<v Speaker 4>that sort of systematic approach this library called style System,

866
00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:31.360
<v Speaker 4>which was actually created by my husband before we were married.

867
00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:36.760
<v Speaker 4>We just both apparently liked design systems anyway. That gave

868
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:40.400
<v Speaker 4>you kind of system props or what we now started

869
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:45.760
<v Speaker 4>to call variables or like tokens that you could bring

870
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:51.039
<v Speaker 4>into your components and styles, and so instead of identifying

871
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:53.400
<v Speaker 4>things a bit like you do with SAS, so you've

872
00:49:53.400 --> 00:49:56.559
<v Speaker 4>got a SaaS variable. And now we've finally got CSS

873
00:49:56.679 --> 00:49:59.800
<v Speaker 4>variables and they're supported everywhere. So a lot of people

874
00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:02.760
<v Speaker 4>move being back to that. But that to me was

875
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.320
<v Speaker 4>when things clicked. I was like, Okay, I can see

876
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:09.599
<v Speaker 4>how we can build these components and do it systematically

877
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.840
<v Speaker 4>because we can share the system styles through something like

878
00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:17.360
<v Speaker 4>style System. And so the thing that I particularly got

879
00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:20.800
<v Speaker 4>excited about with React components is thinking of everything as

880
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:21.960
<v Speaker 4>a component.

881
00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:22.159
<v Speaker 3>Which is.

882
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:26.679
<v Speaker 4>There's a whole blog post I think they wrote on

883
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:32.519
<v Speaker 4>thinking and React, but thinking in components and thinking about

884
00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:34.920
<v Speaker 4>pulling this block up and being able to you know,

885
00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:39.960
<v Speaker 4>place it somewhere else and have all the presentational code

886
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:43.280
<v Speaker 4>in that one component. Something about that felt really really

887
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:47.599
<v Speaker 4>good as opposed to, like, you know, working with CSS

888
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:51.760
<v Speaker 4>a chain. If you end up you can only you

889
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:55.480
<v Speaker 4>could use techniques like them if you've fhart of that block,

890
00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:01.519
<v Speaker 4>element modifier or utilities, which where you would actually use

891
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:09.199
<v Speaker 4>important for good reasons to make those classes immutable. That

892
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:12.280
<v Speaker 4>wouldn't That would give you sort of a sort of

893
00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.360
<v Speaker 4>some scope, but not really because it's still CSS. So

894
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:19.920
<v Speaker 4>what you saw with these with components is being able

895
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:23.119
<v Speaker 4>to encapsulate all the styles and all the stuff that

896
00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:26.840
<v Speaker 4>is controlling the presentation and not have it leak over

897
00:51:26.920 --> 00:51:30.639
<v Speaker 4>everything else. Right, And so that's why I was when

898
00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:33.480
<v Speaker 4>I went to get heub, I was like, we need components.

899
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:36.639
<v Speaker 4>Actually didn't really care what they were builtn I was

900
00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:38.239
<v Speaker 4>just like, we need components.

901
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:42.679
<v Speaker 2>So and it's just that level of encapsulation that this

902
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:45.719
<v Speaker 2>one style doesn't leak across all of these things that

903
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:48.159
<v Speaker 2>it's sitting in a block and a wrapper or sometime

904
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.079
<v Speaker 2>that says this is related to menuing or this is

905
00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:52.280
<v Speaker 2>related to images.

906
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Do you want me to talk a

907
00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:57.719
<v Speaker 4>little bit about how things evolved to gethub.

908
00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, that's exactly what I'm fascinated about. See how

909
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.960
<v Speaker 2>you get into trouble, right, You started with CSS and

910
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:05.199
<v Speaker 2>you're just trying to get those wrappers around it, so

911
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:08.280
<v Speaker 2>you get to view components and then that kind of

912
00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:09.079
<v Speaker 2>leads to react.

913
00:52:09.559 --> 00:52:14.519
<v Speaker 4>It was actually not quite that linear, so so yes,

914
00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:23.639
<v Speaker 4>CSS and using techniques like immutable utility class CSS, class

915
00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:29.679
<v Speaker 4>selectors and and then using frameworks like them and SaaS

916
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:31.719
<v Speaker 4>variables and stuff like that, that helped.

917
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:33.159
<v Speaker 3>And that was a great that it was a.

918
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:36.519
<v Speaker 4>Really great way to introduce a systematic approach because we

919
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:41.320
<v Speaker 4>could update the Y without touching tons of markup and

920
00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:45.599
<v Speaker 4>sort of blowing everything up. But we started to you know,

921
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:49.360
<v Speaker 4>get HERB grew from you know, being a place to

922
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:52.519
<v Speaker 4>sort of host and collaborate on code, and now it's

923
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:58.599
<v Speaker 4>got you know, we've got actions and security features and

924
00:52:58.760 --> 00:52:59.800
<v Speaker 4>all those co pilots.

925
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:00.159
<v Speaker 2>Like.

926
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:02.360
<v Speaker 4>It was starting to grow while I was there and

927
00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:06.760
<v Speaker 4>becoming difficult to really maintain, and we just couldn't get

928
00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:10.599
<v Speaker 4>far enough with CSS alone. So we worked with some

929
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:13.679
<v Speaker 4>of the what was called the Web Systems team to

930
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:19.760
<v Speaker 4>explore components solutions, and so we definitely explored things like

931
00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:27.159
<v Speaker 4>web components and they may have explored some other frameworks.

932
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:32.239
<v Speaker 4>React was an obvious one to explore because it was

933
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:36.480
<v Speaker 4>significantly growing in popularity. A lot of companies had already

934
00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:40.360
<v Speaker 4>moved to community using that. So it's like a bit

935
00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:44.360
<v Speaker 4>like you know, choosing an open source library, like does

936
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:47.199
<v Speaker 4>it have legs? Like are the community using it? Is

937
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:48.679
<v Speaker 4>it going to keep growing? Is it going to be

938
00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:49.800
<v Speaker 4>there in five minutes?

939
00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, and again putting on your leadership had it's like

940
00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:54.719
<v Speaker 2>can I hier devs that know how.

941
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:56.559
<v Speaker 3>To use this exactly? Yeah?

942
00:53:56.679 --> 00:53:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Do I have the resources that are needed?

943
00:53:58.679 --> 00:53:58.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

944
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:05.320
<v Speaker 4>So we started to sort of do these experiments and

945
00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:08.079
<v Speaker 4>then at some point I was just like I'm just

946
00:54:08.119 --> 00:54:12.119
<v Speaker 4>going to put up like a prototype of what this

947
00:54:12.199 --> 00:54:15.400
<v Speaker 4>could look like in React, and like, how I'm thinking

948
00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:20.400
<v Speaker 4>about this and I'm not particularly good at JavaScript, but

949
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:24.360
<v Speaker 4>you know, no enough to.

950
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:31.440
<v Speaker 2>We'll work in JavaScript and we all cause problems for others.

951
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:37.400
<v Speaker 1>I do as much JavaScript as absolutely necessary, no more.

952
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:41.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, well, the you know it's it was enough to

953
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:44.480
<v Speaker 4>be able to say this is what a component library

954
00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:47.840
<v Speaker 4>could look like with using React. And I did a

955
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:50.360
<v Speaker 4>couple a couple of different techniques for how we could

956
00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:53.480
<v Speaker 4>use it with CSS, so one with like a j

957
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:58.320
<v Speaker 4>CSS and JS solution and one of pulling in the

958
00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:03.559
<v Speaker 4>class names from CSS. And then from there that started

959
00:55:03.559 --> 00:55:07.519
<v Speaker 4>to get some legs and then we started building. We

960
00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:11.280
<v Speaker 4>hired a full time engineer on the design systems team

961
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:15.639
<v Speaker 4>and they started to develop out the library, and more

962
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:19.840
<v Speaker 4>and more teams were starting to experiment with products that

963
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:24.639
<v Speaker 4>they were building in Reacting and as kind of experiments.

964
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:30.119
<v Speaker 4>And then during that time an engineer at get Hub

965
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:35.280
<v Speaker 4>called Joel Hawksgley had been working a lot in the

966
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:37.559
<v Speaker 4>front end and seeing what we were exploring with Reacting,

967
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:42.960
<v Speaker 4>came up with few Components, which is a Rails solution

968
00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:47.400
<v Speaker 4>for components because as you might know, like was built

969
00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:52.760
<v Speaker 4>in Ruby and rails, and so he ended up joining

970
00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:56.239
<v Speaker 4>the team, which was which was great because even though

971
00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:59.079
<v Speaker 4>we weren't sure what the future of get Her front

972
00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:02.119
<v Speaker 4>end was, what we kind of knew is that we

973
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:07.000
<v Speaker 4>really needed to be building components instead of views, and

974
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:10.679
<v Speaker 4>so regardless of what we ended up using, view, components

975
00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:16.119
<v Speaker 4>would at least be teaching engineers to thinking components. And

976
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:21.159
<v Speaker 4>so later on we ended up having a team ship

977
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:26.639
<v Speaker 4>a production app in React using Primer React components, and

978
00:56:26.679 --> 00:56:29.639
<v Speaker 4>that was I think end of twenty twenty and that

979
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:32.079
<v Speaker 4>was or beginning of twenty twenty one, and that was

980
00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:37.639
<v Speaker 4>the projects feature, and so that was exciting because it

981
00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:42.760
<v Speaker 4>was getting tested in production like this is like not

982
00:56:42.840 --> 00:56:45.199
<v Speaker 4>a hobby pro check, this is like for real now.

983
00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:52.280
<v Speaker 4>And over time, the engineering orgue decided to thankfully move forward.

984
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:55.559
<v Speaker 4>I'm saying thankfully move forwards with React because for me

985
00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:59.599
<v Speaker 4>it was more that, yes, this is well supported by

986
00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:03.440
<v Speaker 4>the commune, but also it was really difficult trying to

987
00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:10.039
<v Speaker 4>maintain like two systems, and so now we're now few components,

988
00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:14.559
<v Speaker 4>is sort of going into sort of Katilo, and we've

989
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:16.159
<v Speaker 4>still got a lot of you I built with it,

990
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:20.840
<v Speaker 4>and it served a great stepping stone in moving to components,

991
00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:26.719
<v Speaker 4>but now we're we're the future we believe is using

992
00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:29.519
<v Speaker 4>React and so that's what teams are moving for and

993
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:33.320
<v Speaker 4>that's where we've invested our time and things like accessibility

994
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:34.159
<v Speaker 4>and stuff like that.

995
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Do you know it makes a lot of sense?

996
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:39.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So do you want to talk a little bit

997
00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:44.360
<v Speaker 1>about I know, Richard, we have always end our shows

998
00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:48.159
<v Speaker 1>talking about AI, don't we We hate it because all

999
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:51.360
<v Speaker 1>of our shows lately have been about AI A llo overwhelming.

1000
00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:53.480
<v Speaker 1>But for coding, you know, it kind of makes a

1001
00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:57.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of sense. And what do you think the design

1002
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:03.639
<v Speaker 1>story is? We're with Jenny I going forward. You are

1003
00:58:03.639 --> 00:58:04.400
<v Speaker 1>you bullish on that?

1004
00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:05.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

1005
00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:09.639
<v Speaker 4>I'm I mean, look, I've been working at GitHub as

1006
00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:14.119
<v Speaker 4>this has evolved for developers, and I've seen you know,

1007
00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:20.239
<v Speaker 4>numerous design tools popping up and it's I mix. Honestly,

1008
00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:23.199
<v Speaker 4>I'm excited to work with it because, if you think

1009
00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:25.960
<v Speaker 4>about it from a designer's point of view, we've got

1010
00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:30.320
<v Speaker 4>something new to design for which hasn't happened at this

1011
00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:34.480
<v Speaker 4>scale for a while. Like the iPhone was like sorry

1012
00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:37.719
<v Speaker 4>if you're sort of Windows are Android users, but like

1013
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:40.599
<v Speaker 4>that was like a really big moment when we're like oh,

1014
00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:45.239
<v Speaker 4>you know, like mobile first design and you know, touch interaction,

1015
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:49.679
<v Speaker 4>touch screens and all those sorts of like haptics and things.

1016
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:53.440
<v Speaker 4>That was really exciting. So this is exciting from the

1017
00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:56.400
<v Speaker 4>point of view of like there's new stuff happening and

1018
00:58:56.519 --> 00:58:59.199
<v Speaker 4>problems that we don't know how to solve yet. So

1019
00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:07.320
<v Speaker 4>I think it's funny though, because early days of jen

1020
00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:10.800
<v Speaker 4>Ai and sort of the chat gbts and chat Ui

1021
00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:15.320
<v Speaker 4>sort of coming out, there was definitely a school of

1022
00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:20.159
<v Speaker 4>thought that didn't feel that we really needed designers for

1023
00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:21.320
<v Speaker 4>this work, that this.

1024
00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:23.199
<v Speaker 3>Is we just need more engineers.

1025
00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:26.679
<v Speaker 4>And I think what has happened over time is and

1026
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:29.800
<v Speaker 4>certainly very much lately if you talk to anyone trying

1027
00:59:29.800 --> 00:59:34.119
<v Speaker 4>to recruit designers, is we've realized that AI and Genei

1028
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:41.079
<v Speaker 4>specifically is really creating a mass evolution in user interaction design.

1029
00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:46.000
<v Speaker 4>It's not taking UI away, and that although the sort

1030
00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:52.559
<v Speaker 4>of chat interface is very much dominating a lot of

1031
00:59:52.599 --> 00:59:56.239
<v Speaker 4>that those interactions, that's not going to probably be the

1032
00:59:56.280 --> 00:59:59.800
<v Speaker 4>only type of UI that you need when you d

1033
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:02.719
<v Speaker 4>AI into to the mix. And we're certainly starting to

1034
01:00:02.760 --> 01:00:09.239
<v Speaker 4>see that with things like agents, right, Yes, And so

1035
01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:13.800
<v Speaker 4>I think now design is really important. It's an incredibly

1036
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:19.119
<v Speaker 4>important part of the stack, and it's going to be

1037
01:00:19.159 --> 01:00:22.960
<v Speaker 4>about designing for intent and figuring out how to carry

1038
01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:28.519
<v Speaker 4>that intent from those direct interactions in the UI, threw

1039
01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:33.280
<v Speaker 4>into how we train models and then the end result.

1040
01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:35.199
<v Speaker 3>So I think it's really interesting.

1041
01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:38.199
<v Speaker 1>I just want to close the show by talking a

1042
01:00:38.199 --> 01:00:41.400
<v Speaker 1>little bit about my experiences with using chat GPT to

1043
01:00:41.480 --> 01:00:45.880
<v Speaker 1>do CSS. And at first, you know, last year even

1044
01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:49.559
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't good. It wasn't good at figuring stuff out,

1045
01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:52.880
<v Speaker 1>and it's gotten better recently. I don't know if you've

1046
01:00:52.880 --> 01:00:56.719
<v Speaker 1>noticed this, but it's gotten better at you know, you

1047
01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:59.719
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't say, you know, make me a design, but what

1048
01:00:59.800 --> 01:01:02.159
<v Speaker 1>I would say is, hey, why isn't this working? Why

1049
01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:06.480
<v Speaker 1>is there like a space above this element that I

1050
01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:09.960
<v Speaker 1>can't figure out? Right? And then you give it? Could

1051
01:01:10.039 --> 01:01:12.800
<v Speaker 1>I give it the CSS? I give it the markup,

1052
01:01:12.880 --> 01:01:17.559
<v Speaker 1>and I actually take a snapshot of you know, the

1053
01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:23.000
<v Speaker 1>browser tools, the source so it can actually see, for

1054
01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:25.599
<v Speaker 1>lack of a better word, what's going on. And it's

1055
01:01:25.639 --> 01:01:28.639
<v Speaker 1>been really good at solving CSS problems lately for me.

1056
01:01:28.719 --> 01:01:30.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what's your experiences.

1057
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:33.119
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean I've been tending to use co pilot

1058
01:01:33.320 --> 01:01:38.199
<v Speaker 4>for obvious reasons. I think I think I in my

1059
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:42.400
<v Speaker 4>in my head, I think I'll use chat GPT if

1060
01:01:42.440 --> 01:01:49.159
<v Speaker 4>I want more like general knowledge or writing tasks or

1061
01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:54.320
<v Speaker 4>I've definitely used it for working on talks or checking

1062
01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:58.639
<v Speaker 4>fact checking, but then going and checking the sources.

1063
01:01:59.280 --> 01:02:00.760
<v Speaker 1>Fact checking fact checker.

1064
01:02:01.159 --> 01:02:06.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah exactly, but it can help you sometimes get in

1065
01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:11.599
<v Speaker 4>the right direction. So yeah, I've been also using Copilot

1066
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:15.840
<v Speaker 4>for that type of thing, and I think, yeah, things

1067
01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:19.159
<v Speaker 4>are probably getting better because there's a lot of also

1068
01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:23.239
<v Speaker 4>a lot of tools that are coming out where it's

1069
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:27.000
<v Speaker 4>working with a pre defined framework and so it's able

1070
01:02:27.039 --> 01:02:31.039
<v Speaker 4>to give much better responses if you are just using

1071
01:02:31.159 --> 01:02:34.679
<v Speaker 4>like a reacts framework or something.

1072
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:38.079
<v Speaker 1>Like that, so you get hub. Copilot uses open AI,

1073
01:02:38.920 --> 01:02:41.679
<v Speaker 1>so it's the and it can also use Claude.

1074
01:02:41.360 --> 01:02:43.599
<v Speaker 3>I think right too, Yeah, yeah you can.

1075
01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:45.719
<v Speaker 1>Do you prefer Claude for coding?

1076
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:49.519
<v Speaker 3>I find that that is it depends.

1077
01:02:49.639 --> 01:02:53.960
<v Speaker 4>I mean there's like Sonnet for is like pretty that's

1078
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:58.119
<v Speaker 4>the new hotness, right, Yeah, it's actually amazing like how

1079
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:03.280
<v Speaker 4>these models have just been coming out faster and faster,

1080
01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:05.400
<v Speaker 4>Like the gaps between when their releases is.

1081
01:03:05.360 --> 01:03:06.079
<v Speaker 1>Getting the time.

1082
01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:14.119
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, probably, but yeah, I think it's and then you

1083
01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:17.199
<v Speaker 4>can you can use there's this I don't know if

1084
01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:19.159
<v Speaker 4>you've used GI HERB models, but you can sort of

1085
01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:22.280
<v Speaker 4>compare like models against each other so you can figure

1086
01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:25.119
<v Speaker 4>out like which is the best one one to use.

1087
01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:28.199
<v Speaker 4>I think that's something that's getting really interesting, is like

1088
01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:32.960
<v Speaker 4>how much do we guide the user on which is

1089
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:36.320
<v Speaker 4>the right model to use versus pick it for them?

1090
01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:38.280
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, it's an interesting Well you.

1091
01:03:38.199 --> 01:03:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Can ask gpt at the best model to use it.

1092
01:03:41.880 --> 01:03:44.840
<v Speaker 3>I wonder what it will say.

1093
01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:46.960
<v Speaker 1>All right, well, we're just about out of time. Is

1094
01:03:46.960 --> 01:03:49.159
<v Speaker 1>there anything else last minute that you want to mention

1095
01:03:49.239 --> 01:03:50.119
<v Speaker 1>before we wrap it up?

1096
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:53.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'm in between jobs, nest, so I don't have

1097
01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:55.320
<v Speaker 4>like a last minute. Let me think for a.

1098
01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Second's a musician? I see a telecaster and a rolling

1099
01:03:59.079 --> 01:04:01.639
<v Speaker 1>V drum set behind you. Who's the musician?

1100
01:04:02.239 --> 01:04:06.079
<v Speaker 4>I am the musician, so that's my I'm more of

1101
01:04:06.079 --> 01:04:10.000
<v Speaker 4>a drama than a guitarist. I've had that kit for

1102
01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:12.880
<v Speaker 4>probably about twelve years, so maybe I should upgrade it.

1103
01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:15.880
<v Speaker 4>But it's Yeah, it's a rolling with Meshad, so it's

1104
01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:18.000
<v Speaker 4>pretty nice. It makes me feel like a better drama

1105
01:04:18.039 --> 01:04:18.599
<v Speaker 4>than I can't.

1106
01:04:18.639 --> 01:04:20.639
<v Speaker 1>The first K was a roll of the drum kit

1107
01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:22.639
<v Speaker 1>with I really I loved it.

1108
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:25.519
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I had like an acoustic kit, but I can't

1109
01:04:25.559 --> 01:04:26.679
<v Speaker 4>have an acoustic kit.

1110
01:04:26.840 --> 01:04:31.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and I don't you're in the way of

1111
01:04:31.400 --> 01:04:33.519
<v Speaker 1>the Telly. But I see that it's a Teley headstock.

1112
01:04:33.679 --> 01:04:35.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh that is cool looking.

1113
01:04:35.440 --> 01:04:38.039
<v Speaker 4>It is a it's a Japanese remake and I think

1114
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:40.800
<v Speaker 4>it's a nineteen seventy nine telecaster.

1115
01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:45.880
<v Speaker 3>It's got these beautiful flowers on it. Yeah.

1116
01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:48.639
<v Speaker 1>And it is that your husband that plays that or

1117
01:04:48.679 --> 01:04:49.480
<v Speaker 1>do you play that too?

1118
01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:52.480
<v Speaker 4>I play that too, but not very well yet. I've

1119
01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:55.599
<v Speaker 4>I've dabbled in playing a guitar here and there. And

1120
01:04:55.639 --> 01:05:00.679
<v Speaker 4>that was my midlife crisis by maybe not quite a

1121
01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:04.719
<v Speaker 4>midlife yeah, but it was just like pre midlife crisis.

1122
01:05:05.079 --> 01:05:07.480
<v Speaker 1>You're welcome to have a crisis at any age.

1123
01:05:09.079 --> 01:05:10.280
<v Speaker 3>But it's it's nice.

1124
01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:13.880
<v Speaker 4>It lets me, you know, doodle rounds and sort of

1125
01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:15.360
<v Speaker 4>sing and play a bit.

1126
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:20.159
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, great, all right, well, wow, what a great

1127
01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:25.559
<v Speaker 1>talk this has been. Thank you very much, Broccolini me

1128
01:05:25.800 --> 01:05:30.679
<v Speaker 1>aka Diana Mounter, thanks for all this, and we'll talk

1129
01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:49.519
<v Speaker 1>to you next time on dot net rocks.

1130
01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:56.440
<v Speaker 5>Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net

1131
01:05:56.559 --> 01:06:00.519
<v Speaker 5>and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video

1132
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:04.679
<v Speaker 5>and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut,

1133
01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:09.719
<v Speaker 5>and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

1134
01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:12.039
<v Speaker 5>Visit our website at d O T N E T

1135
01:06:12.280 --> 01:06:16.320
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1136
01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:20.159
<v Speaker 5>mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1137
01:06:20.159 --> 01:06:23.559
<v Speaker 5>back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

1138
01:06:23.599 --> 01:06:26.239
<v Speaker 5>and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors.

1139
01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:29.440
<v Speaker 5>They keep us in business. Now go write some code.

1140
01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:35.360
<v Speaker 5>See you next time. You got j middle Vans and