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We're goingited to 23 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.520 my eighteen plus terms and conditioned to plus what's dails. 24 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.400 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 25 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.519 Killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:21.879 written about him Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 27 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:26.640 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous. 28 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:27.640 Killers in true crime history. 29 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:33.519 True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 30 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:47.239 Good evening on an unseasonably warm April evening. In two 31 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.560 thousand and one, the headless body of a tiny girl 32 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:53.879 was found discarded in a makeshift dump site in the 33 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.799 woods on the southeast side of Kansas City, Missouri. One 34 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.200 long night turned into four long years for Sergeant David 35 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.879 Bernard and the Kansas City Police Department's ten twenty squad. 36 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:08.000 They followed fifteen hundred leads at a replica of the 37 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:11.800 child's head sculpted from her skull, and ultimately conducted the 38 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:15.759 single most extensive area canvas in the Kansas City Police 39 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:21.800 Department's history. Erica Michelle Marie Green aka Precious Dough, captured 40 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:25.319 the hearts of not only the dedicated detectives who fought 41 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:28.520 tirelessly to identify her in her killer, but of an 42 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:33.319 entire community. Precious Few Clues is a candid and touching 43 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:37.479 account of the painful impact that this brutal murder had 44 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:41.360 on Sergeant Bernard, his family, and the Kansas City Police 45 00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:45.919 Department's ten twenty squad. It chronicles the all too frequent 46 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:50.479 story of child abuse, failed social services, a flawed court system, 47 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.400 and battered women who sacrificed their own children to shield 48 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.800 their abuse of lovers, echoing the same preposterous explanations of 49 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:01.719 but I Love him. The book that we're featuring this 50 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:06.199 evening is Precious Few Clues, the true crime investigation of 51 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:10.080 Kansas City's Precious Though Murder, with my special guest, victim 52 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:13.360 advocate and author Marla Bernard. Welcome back to the program, 53 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.919 and thank you very much for this interview. Marla Bernard, 54 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:16.439 Thank you. 55 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:17.840 I'm delighted to be here. 56 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:22.280 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book. 57 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:23.240 Thank you. 58 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.879 You've been asked many times why you'd want to write 59 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:30.800 a book about the untimely deaths of children and the 60 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.840 grizzly events that surrounded them. Tell us about that. 61 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:38.080 I have always had a passion for writing, and I 62 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:43.400 think that this case in particular was one a story 63 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:47.840 that needed telling, certainly a victim who needed a voice. 64 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:51.840 I was a reserve sergeant for the Kansas City, Missouri 65 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:57.000 Police Department and am married to the chief investigator on 66 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:02.080 this case, Sergeant David Bernard. But for this particular case, 67 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:06.800 I'm also a mother and it was hard for me 68 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:12.759 to wrap my head around how something like this could 69 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:20.639 possibly happen when traditionally mothers and motherhood is represented by 70 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:25.279 wanting to be the protector, the defender, the nurturer, and 71 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:29.920 so I felt like the story needed to be investigated, 72 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:35.480 rifled through to try and get to a resolution as 73 00:04:35.560 --> 00:04:39.319 to how this could occur. And in the process, so 74 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:46.040 many things were revealed regarding child abuse and child murder cases, 75 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:50.680 and I found it oddly fascinating, But again, I just 76 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:53.720 felt that it was a story that needed to be told. 77 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:57.120 Yes, in a story it is you take us initially 78 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:01.720 to April twenty eighth, two thousand and one on Kansas City, Missouri, 79 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:05.360 and your sergeant David Bernard is at the murder squad 80 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:08.199 or the ten twenty squad of those called around seven 81 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:11.120 thirty PM tell us about the call that he receives 82 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:13.519 and what happens after that. 83 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:17.720 He received a call. He was actually at home in 84 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:23.079 the evening, trying to have a little downtime because murder 85 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:27.360 Squad in Kansas City was developed to be a day 86 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:32.920 shift squad until a murder becomes a crime saying where 87 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:37.759 it's possibly murder, where there is no immediate suspect, and 88 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:41.759 then they go on for twenty four forty eight seventy 89 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:45.279 two hours, nine stop. So he's taking a little bit 90 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:50.279 of a respite. The phone rings. He gets information that 91 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.680 a body has been found in a wooded area at 92 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:59.959 fifty ninth in Kensington. It's a deceased female. They estimate 93 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:03.759 aided her to be proximately three to six years old, 94 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:07.439 and she had been decapitated and there was no head 95 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:11.120 at the scene. And from there they respond to the 96 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:16.519 crime scene. And it was the case that David initially 97 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:21.160 thought once they once they got all of the information together, 98 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:24.959 recovered the body, got it to the medical examiner, would 99 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:30.800 be quickly solved because someone was missing a child, and 100 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:34.160 ironically that was not to be. 101 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.680 What were the first steps in trying to identify who 102 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:39.720 this child was? You say, that of course, the medical 103 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:43.279 examiner inducted in an autopsy tell us about this unique 104 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:47.319 birthmark and the efforts for police to go to the 105 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:51.959 public to try to identify this precious doughe This was. 106 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:57.199 The single largest area canvas that had ever been conducted 107 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:01.000 by the Kansas City, Missouri Police Department at that time. 108 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:08.560 They officers literally went door to door. They posted flyers, 109 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:14.480 They had artists rendering of the child. They gave the 110 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:18.480 media a picture of the she had a unique birthmark 111 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:23.600 on her shoulder. They gave a physical description as this 112 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:28.720 they could again you know, once the head was recovered, 113 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:33.879 they had an artist do a sketch as appropriately as 114 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.319 they could to reveal what the child looked like. They 115 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:42.519 engaged the Center for Missing Children. They got what they 116 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:46.240 hoped would be a computer rendering of what the child 117 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:50.240 might look like that had to be redone multiple times, 118 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:53.240 but they did. It was a lot of shoe leader 119 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:59.360 literally going NonStop door to door, bringing cadets from the 120 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:03.519 police cat to me to search inch by inch that 121 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:10.079 area to try and get any information possible roadblocks, flyers. 122 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.720 They tried to do as many unique things as possible. 123 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:19.360 Initially and again they thought that surely someone would come 124 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.639 forward saying they were missing a child, which was like 125 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:30.120 pulling a thread. They found that nationally there were dozens 126 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:36.440 of missing children that fit the description of this child, 127 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:43.000 who was named by an area activist as Precious Dough 128 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:49.240 because she had no other name, and they the lady 129 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:52.240 that came up with that name said, this is a 130 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:56.960 precious child. She's a Jane Doe, and she belongs to 131 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.720 this community, and we have to give her a name, 132 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:05.159 an identity until we can find out who she truly is. 133 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.799 To complicate things, the day after Precious Dough is found, 134 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:14.519 there is a April twenty ninth Pine Bluff Police. They've 135 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:18.639 been looking for somebody connected with the missing Renee Wilson, 136 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.240 missing since March two thousand and one. Tell us briefly 137 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:27.039 what happens with this and the irresponsible media and its effect. 138 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:32.399 There was a murder that occurred in Kansas City, unbeknownst 139 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:35.840 to the ten twenty squad it was it was a 140 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:42.039 missing girl. She had been murdered, placed in the trunk 141 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:47.919 of a car, and the suspect in that case fled 142 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:52.080 Kansas City and went to Pine Bluff, Arkansas, where he 143 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:59.799 had some family. The Pine Bluff, Arkansas Police Department were 144 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:02.559 a able to get this man try and get him 145 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.080 into custody. He did kill himself at the scene, but 146 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:12.279 they recovered a large knife, a hunting knife. And because 147 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.639 of the fact that he had come from Kansas City, 148 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.240 there was a deceased female who was of an appropriate 149 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.639 age that could possibly have been the mother of our 150 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:29.799 victim at fifty ninth in Kensington, the child. They deduced 151 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:33.039 that the reason no one had come forward in Kansas 152 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:36.720 City was because the mother was dead. She was in 153 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:40.519 the trunk. Here was this fishing knife, none of which 154 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:45.120 was related at all. But this information was leaked to 155 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.919 the media, and while they're trying to do the investigation 156 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:53.759 and manage and contain what information they have to protect 157 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:59.039 the integrity of the fifty ninth and Kensington child murder, 158 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:04.080 the media in Arkansas, with information provided by the Pine 159 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:08.240 Bluff Police Department is saying that they've solved the case. Well, 160 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:12.240 none of which unfortunately was accurate. But it was just 161 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:20.000 another roadblock thrown in their path as they're trying to 162 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:24.000 keep a lid on information because, as you know, Dan, 163 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:30.759 it's essential that the police department hold back significant pieces 164 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:34.559 of information. So that when they do get a suspect, 165 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:39.919 they can determine whether or not they actually were involved, 166 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:42.679 and they're going down the right road. 167 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:47.200 Now you talk about the Medical Examiner's office and this autopsy, 168 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.159 we didn't talk about the injuries that they saw, the 169 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:52.960 old scars that they saw, tell us about what they 170 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.919 found and could deduce from this autopsy. 171 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:04.600 What they determined was obviously the obvious decapitation. What they 172 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.799 speculated the type of object that would have been used 173 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:15.200 to do that. Was also determined that the little girl 174 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:22.559 had a blood infection that we believe was from wounds 175 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:25.639 that were starting to heal. They had found on her 176 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:31.200 body that appeared to be looping injuries, And by looping, 177 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:35.159 I mean that someone had taken like a lamp cord, 178 00:12:35.720 --> 00:12:41.200 a computer cord extension cord, looped it and beat the 179 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:45.440 child with it, and those injuries were in the process 180 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:49.440 of starting to heal. Because of those wounds. They determined 181 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:53.320 that that the infection might have been possibly from that. 182 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:57.120 There was also an indication that the child had been 183 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:02.919 sexually abused, but otherwise she was in an upper percentile 184 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:08.480 for her age, her growth, her health. She had from appearances, 185 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:13.320 been well fed, well kept but she did have extensive 186 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:18.039 bruising as though she had been physically abused. There were 187 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:23.200 some major contusions on her body that it was determined 188 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:28.799 later were from her being violently kicked. When the head 189 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:34.840 was recovered, it was determined that she had a brain injury. 190 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:38.960 Again that was from being kept and the tragic part 191 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:43.240 of it was if medical care could have been summoned, 192 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:46.399 she would have survived those injuries. 193 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.559 Now, in this extraordinary story May one, two thousand and one, 194 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:55.159 with the police academy recruits assigned to search, the conducting 195 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:59.039 of field search, the media shows up, but also Billy 196 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:04.080 Stiegel shows up. This guy's known to police. He has 197 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.440 these visions Elizabellue, Billy Stiegel, who he is and what 198 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:10.720 happens that day with the media present. 199 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:16.519 He was known to police. He was a veteran, he 200 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:22.399 had some mental health issues. Was just an odd deck, 201 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:28.480 if you will, small time crimes, nothing really significant other 202 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:33.120 than the mental health issues. He was convinced that the 203 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:39.919 government was investigating him. He heard voices, he had visions. 204 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:46.279 He would insinuate himself into different investigations over the years, 205 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:51.240 and he decided he had a vision that he knew 206 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:56.000 where the child's head was, so he decided to go 207 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:00.360 to fifty ninth in Kensington, in an area that police 208 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:05.399 had not cordoned off yet had not expanded the gram 209 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:11.000 search in that direction yet. There were some other weather 210 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:16.799 related things. There was a small creek nearby, some things 211 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:23.279 that the mandated the timely investigation of that area first, 212 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:28.080 should there be should the child's head be in that area. 213 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:32.399 So while they're going in one direction, Billy Stagall decides 214 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:36.480 to go in the opposite direction, and he's going through 215 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.360 the woods. He walked with a cane and had the 216 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.399 cane with him. Ses a young reporter, a news reporter 217 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:46.200 and a cameraman and said, hey, why don't you come 218 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.679 with me? So she followed him through the woods and 219 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:54.279 as he's moving his cane around, he sees an area 220 00:15:54.600 --> 00:16:00.440 where inside a discarded tire there are trash banks or 221 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:04.240 well it's actually determined to be a trash bag inside 222 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.879 a trash bag, and a lot of flies around it 223 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.919 because it was starting the weather was starting to get 224 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:15.840 warm here in the Midwest. And he the takes the 225 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.519 cane and starts moving it around and he said, I 226 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.759 think there's a head in here, and rips the bag 227 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.159 and indeed that's what they found. 228 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.440 Now with that examination, I know we just spoke that 229 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:33.159 what does the medical examiner determine in terms of the 230 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.399 injuries and when the heading actually occurred? What are the 231 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.480 some of the things they learned from the examination of 232 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.960 the head, And of course there's a match made to 233 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.799 the body, But tell us more about what else they 234 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:48.960 could deduce from that examination the head and their next 235 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:50.720 step forward in identification. 236 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:57.279 They were able to fairly quickly determine that the injuries 237 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:02.759 were such that the head obviously belonged to that body, 238 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:08.359 which was an initial relief because one of the concerns 239 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.720 they had is is this a singular Is this a 240 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:16.440 singular case? Could there possibly be more than one victim? 241 00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.920 What are we looking for? They determined that that was 242 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:24.839 a match, certainly clearly the lab results of the tissue 243 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:30.599 the blood. They determined that the head had been at 244 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:35.000 the crime scene with the blood and the whole investigation, 245 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:39.359 that the head had been moved at some point by 246 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:44.960 objects and paint chips and dirt that was found in 247 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.160 her hair that was not at the crime scene. It 248 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.440 was determined that it was not a sharp object like 249 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:56.240 a clean a knife cut that if you just took 250 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.960 a large knife, like a hunting knife and made the cut, 251 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:04.799 that was not the case. There was chopping motion and 252 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:08.200 it was later determined that it was hedge clippers that 253 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:13.359 were actually used, and those were all consistent with the 254 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:19.200 effort that went into removing the head, and they were 255 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:23.039 able to determine that that occurred after. 256 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:24.480 She was deceased. 257 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:28.839 Now there's a thirty three thousand dollar reward offered, and 258 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:31.119 there are people that step up to the plate to 259 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:34.119 try to make some kind of a composite to try 260 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.079 to still identify her. You talk about Steve McBride for 261 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.240 the Field rep for the Center for Missing and Exploited Children. 262 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:44.319 He used a computer he thought a computer generated composite 263 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:45.640 would be might work. 264 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:48.359 And then there was other people that came. 265 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.039 To the forefront a little bit later, and notably this 266 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:54.640 nationally known sculptor named Frank Bender tell us about a 267 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:59.640 couple of these initiatives to make a realistic composite to 268 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.400 try to identify Precious Still. 269 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:09.880 The first computer generated one was a lovely, lovely rendering, 270 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:16.319 but there were things in the photograph, in the computerized 271 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:22.240 drawing that were not consistent with the victim herself, the hair, 272 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:28.720 the age, she looked older than what the medical examiner 273 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.799 felt was her approximate age. They thought closer to three 274 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.079 to four years old. This child looked to be seven 275 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:42.240 or eight in the photograph. She had longer hair, corn rows, 276 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:47.960 and earring, none of which the victim had. So they 277 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.880 brought in a forensic artist named Lee Hammond and she 278 00:19:53.079 --> 00:20:00.559 did a very close rendering using the actual victim as 279 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:06.440 the model. They subsequently brought in Frank Bender, who was 280 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:12.079 a nationally known forensic sculptor. I think Frank Bender is 281 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:17.240 best known for a model that he did of John List, 282 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:21.759 who was murdered. He was a family annihilator back in 283 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.480 I believe the late fifties, and that sculpt when he 284 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:31.119 did that sculpture, aging it down to the detail of 285 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:36.240 the type of eyeglasses they anticipated that List would be wearing. 286 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:41.880 They used that on America's Most Wanted and got the 287 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:46.319 lead that police needed and they were actually able to 288 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:52.640 locate and arrest John List. So having Frank Bender's sculpture, 289 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:58.599 they were so confident that surely now we have something 290 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:01.160 that we can show the public like and someone will 291 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:05.240 come forward, and they did. It was featured on America's 292 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:10.960 Most Wanted, but nobody called. Nobody came forward, they got leads, 293 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.720 but there were a lot of people that had a 294 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:18.759 lot of information that were aware of America's Most Wanted, 295 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:20.240 and no one called. 296 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.400 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a 297 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:23.640 second for these messages. 298 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.119 Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight 299 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:28.359 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 300 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.039 slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over the 301 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:32.920 person sitting next to me, and you know what they 302 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:35.799 were doing. They were also playing Chumpa Casino. Coincidence, I 303 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:38.480 think not everybody's loving having fun with it. 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But 313 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.880 on April twenty ninth, two thousand and five, a detective 314 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:12.119 Taylor took a call from someone named Thurman McIntosh, and 315 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:16.720 the caller had seen an ad sponsored by General Mills Foods. 316 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:21.440 In the call, a newspaper local Kansas City publication, tell 317 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:25.759 us about this Thurman McIntosh, what does he have to say? 318 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:31.279 He calls the police, And it was never determined if 319 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:37.759 mister McIntosh had had multiple strokes for what his difficulty was. 320 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.640 But he was very, very hard to understand. He was 321 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:47.440 calling from Oklahoma. He said that he believed that this 322 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:51.920 child was related to his grandson, but he did not 323 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:57.119 know her name, and he could send a picture and 324 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:01.519 identify the child, but again he didn't know where she 325 00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:05.920 was where they were and he said, oh, and he 326 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:10.000 said that they were in Aurora, Colorado, And what he 327 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:16.559 actually was close. He actually meant Aurora, Illinois, where the 328 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:22.440 mother's precious Doe's mother's family was from. So it sent 329 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:29.480 the police investigating in Aurora, Colorado, trying to run down 330 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:34.720 what little information he could provide. And he did call 331 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.839 more than once. He called a second time, and the 332 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:43.480 second time he called. By that time the police already 333 00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:47.559 had information and were pursuing it, so you had two 334 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:51.119 things kind of running in parallel. And the picture that 335 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:55.720 he did send he sent to a local activist here, 336 00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:59.920 but it did have Precious Doe's mother in the picture, 337 00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:04.960 but the child that he identified was not Precious Stowe 338 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:10.119 and she was not in the picture. So again, they're close, 339 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.200 but not quite close enough. They have information, but just 340 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.440 not enough. They're just on the precipice of getting the 341 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:23.440 clues to line up, but they just weren't quite there yet. 342 00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:27.480 Mister McIntosh did call because he did want the reward, 343 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:32.000 which he ultimately did receive, much to the chagrin of 344 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:36.839 Precious Stowe's mother, and he was related. But what it 345 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:42.400 was determined was that mister McIntosh and his daughter the 346 00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:47.319 suspect's mother, had known for pretty much since the time 347 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:51.400 that the child had been deceased, So for several years 348 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.640 they had known the identification of this child and had 349 00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:58.000 not come forward. 350 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:02.279 Tell us about Michelle Johnson Michelle Green aka Johnson and 351 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:03.880 Harold Johnson. 352 00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:10.319 Michelle Green was a native of Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. 353 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:17.079 She had been a victim of sexual abuse, she claimed 354 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:22.160 by adult family members when she was about thirteen years old, 355 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:27.440 she got involved with a man named Larry Green, who 356 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:33.440 got her addicted to drugs prostituted her. They did subsequently 357 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:38.720 get married. They had several children together, and she met 358 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:45.920 Heral Johnson because he was one of her Johns. Larry 359 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:50.359 Green had bought drugs from Herald Johnson and in exchange 360 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:55.160 for the drugs, he prostituted Michelle and that's how she 361 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:57.519 became acquainted with Heral. 362 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:02.039 Tell us about the birth of Erica Green and also 363 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:04.319 introduced missus Betty Brown. 364 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:11.200 When Michelle had several other children by Larry Green. By 365 00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:16.119 this time, she was living in Oklahoma and she was pregnant. 366 00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:21.200 She was arrested on shoplifting charges, and because she had 367 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:27.599 had previous arrests by this time, she was sentenced to 368 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:34.359 a jail term. Erica was born in prison and Michelle 369 00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.799 still had several months to serve on her sentence. Lady 370 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.880 named Betty Brown was a friend of Larry Green's mother 371 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:48.759 and agreed to take the child. She had other foster children, 372 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:54.839 so Michelle agreed and the child was transferred to the 373 00:26:54.920 --> 00:27:00.640 care of Betty Brown in Oklahoma, and she to have 374 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:07.480 Erica until Michelle was released from prison. However, Michelle did 375 00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:10.599 not come back to retrieve the child. She left her 376 00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:16.039 in Betty Brown's care and would periodically drop by for 377 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:20.880 a visit, but would never take the child. Left her 378 00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:25.359 there to be raised by Betty Brown, which in fact, 379 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:29.599 was a good environment for the child to be raised in. 380 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.240 The other children that Michelle at that time she was 381 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:39.920 Michelle Green had were being raised in Aurora, Illinois by 382 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.079 her mother. She'd have a baby, she and Larry would 383 00:27:43.079 --> 00:27:47.799 go back. They would move between Oklahoma, where Larry had 384 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:52.440 family in Illinois where Michelle had family, and they would 385 00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.279 take the children up there and just leave them and 386 00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:59.799 then go on about their business, which was prostitution and drugs. 387 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.119 This interview with Danny and Tammy the two detectives, what 388 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:08.240 does Michelle eventually fest up to? According to her, what 389 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:11.720 are the details of that incredible, horrible. 390 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:17.720 Day when they got Michelle in custody. She told the 391 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:22.920 detectives that she had Michelle at that time was married 392 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:28.039 divorced Green and had married Harold Johnson, and she was pregnant. 393 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:32.160 She also had a job. She was working in a 394 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.559 I think she called the food Savor grocery store. Had 395 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:42.480 just gotten back home. They were renting a back bedroom 396 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:47.119 in a home of an acquaintance of theirs, using their 397 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:53.519 Erica's aged dependent children, her food stamps and welfare to 398 00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:58.440 pay for the room. Michelle had planned to go take 399 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:03.920 a bath. She had left Erica in the room with Heral, 400 00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:08.799 and Erica was crying. The child had only been in 401 00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:13.920