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This was personal. 48 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:18.080 On the November morning in twenty and fifteen, Christopher Jackson 49 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:21.560 waited for his fiancee, Angela Wylder to pick him up 50 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:24.879 from work, as she always did, but this time she 51 00:03:24.960 --> 00:03:30.800 didn't show and Christopher's calls went unanswered. The police found 52 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.000 what looked like a scene from a horror movie at 53 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:37.120 their home. The back door kicked in, a bedroom splattered 54 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:40.800 with blood, and a pregnant young woman violently stabbed to death. 55 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:44.240 Could Christopher had murdered the woman he claimed to love, 56 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:48.000 or was the crime done by an intruder Angela had 57 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:53.240 feared for weeks. Angela's womanizing ex husband, Richie Wilder Junior, 58 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:59.039 aimed detective straight towards Christopher. The evidence, however, pointed squarely 59 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:04.840 at Richie. Kindergarten teacher Cynthia Wilder thought her dreams had 60 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.879 come true when she married Richie, But while her husband 61 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:12.439 sat behind bars, Cynthia grew lonely. When she shared some 62 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:16.519 disturbing details with a former lover, Cynthia finally revealed the 63 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:21.560 truth behind the sinister plot to kill Angela Wylder after 64 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:25.079 four years of lies and deceit. The real story would 65 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:28.920 shock a community to its very core. The book that 66 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:33.439 we're featuring this evening is Wilder Intentions, Love, Lies and 67 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:36.920 Murder in North Dakota with my special guest, journalist and 68 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:40.439 author CJ. Winn. Welcome to the program, and thank you 69 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:43.000 so much for this interview. CJ. Winn. 70 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:46.040 Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it 71 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:46.560 very much. 72 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:50.800 Thank you so much for joining us with this remarkable 73 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:57.600 book and remarkable case just open. I wanted to know 74 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:01.639 how you came to this case and maybe had this 75 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:05.240 opportunity to talk about the assistant you received from author 76 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:07.560 best selling author Shanna Hogan. 77 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:09.600 Sure. 78 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.879 So, I'm originally from North Dakota, and while I don't 79 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.480 still live there, you know many friends still live there, 80 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:19.839 a lot of my family still live there, and so 81 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:22.279 I had heard about this case. It was being talked 82 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:24.600 about on social media. They were doing a Dateline episode 83 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:29.480 about it in October, sorry, August of twenty eighteen, and so, 84 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:33.480 being someone who watches every Dateline episode, of course, you know, 85 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:35.959 I caught the episode and then I just kind of 86 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.600 decided from there that there had to be more of 87 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.439 the story than what was presented in the sixty minute 88 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:46.000 episode of Dateline. And so I actually reached out to Shannahogan, 89 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.600 who was one of my favorite true crime authors. I'd 90 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:50.720 never met her before, and I just sent her an 91 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.279 email and asked her if she could maybe give me 92 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:55.720 some pointers on how to get started in writing true crime. 93 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:59.079 And to my surprise, she responded back within just a 94 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:02.279 few days and we set up a meeting, and so 95 00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:03.879 she kind of gave me some pointers. She had just 96 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:07.000 finished writing her fourth book, was getting ready to get 97 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:09.399 that published. She had just finished that, and so she 98 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:10.959 kind of had some open time and so kind of 99 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:13.279 decided that she wanted to take on, you. 100 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:14.639 Know, mentoring me through the process. 101 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:18.920 So she was an excellent person to go to anytime 102 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:22.079 I ran into any issues, any questions I had, So 103 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:23.439 she was instrumental in all of that. 104 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:30.160 Now, that's obviously she recognized your passion for writing and 105 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.759 your potential let's get to November twelfth, twenty and fifteen, 106 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:39.399 and you introduced the central characters, Christopher Jackson and he 107 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:44.439 works at Walmart and his fiancee has introduced in the introduction, 108 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.319 Angela Wilder, calls in that work or they talk at work. 109 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:52.639 So what is the gist of the conversation specifically when 110 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:55.600 they talk, what is she telling him is going on 111 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:57.920 around the house that night? 112 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:05.040 Sure, so he worked overnight shifts at Walmart from ten 113 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:08.160 pm to seven am, and it was pretty standard that 114 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:10.199 they talked all throughout the night, whether it was text, 115 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:13.240 messager calling. He would call her on his first break, 116 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:15.759 his second break, his third break, and then they would 117 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.120 kind of text in between. Usually it was just to 118 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:21.720 say hi, just to make sure Angela was doing okay. 119 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:24.680 They had a young son at home with them. She 120 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.160 had just found out she was pregnant again at this 121 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:30.759 time on November twelve, twenty fifteen. But on this particular night, 122 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:33.839 the conversation was a little bit different. She was a 123 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:37.079 little bit nervous. She thought that she heard noises coming outside, 124 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:39.800 coming from outside. She thought that someone was maybe even 125 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:42.920 trying to jiggle the door open to the front door 126 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.920 of their house and so he just kind of told her, Hey, 127 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:49.279 it's okay, don't worry. It's right, it's the neighbors, not 128 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:49.920 a big deal. 129 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.040 So they also promised her. He promised her too, that 130 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:02.480 he would call again. She complained about being tired, and 131 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:05.959 he knew she was overworked trying to do these nursing 132 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.199 classes and also be taking care of the children and pregnant, 133 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:13.040 so he knew that her being tired was justified. So 134 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:18.839 what happened with their correspondence during this his shit at Walmart? 135 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:22.560 Sure, so, just like always, he called her on his 136 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:24.639 first break at midnight, and then he called her again 137 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:27.000 on his lunch break at two am, and they talked 138 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:29.480 for a few minutes, and then when he called her 139 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:31.519 on his third break at five am, she did not 140 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:33.960 answer the phone anymore, and he thought it was kind 141 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:34.519 of strange. 142 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:37.480 But you know, like you had mentioned, he knew that 143 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:40.799 she was stressed out about school, she was tired, she. 144 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:42.039 Had just wound out, she was pregnant, so she was 145 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:45.480 kind of already feeling those initial signs, and so he thought, 146 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:48.080 you know, she probably just fallen asleep. He wanted to 147 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:50.519 let her get her rest. In fact, he then text 148 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:53.799 messaged her at about five thirteen am and then said, 149 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:55.279 you know, I hope you're getting some. 150 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:57.559 Rest, sweetheart. I love you. I'll see you in a 151 00:08:57.559 --> 00:08:58.480 few hours. 152 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:04.039 And okay, so she was okay, go ahead, Oh no, 153 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:04.960 I was I was going to say. 154 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.519 And then she was scheduled to pick him up at 155 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:10.759 seven am that morning, and he still could not get 156 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:12.879 in touch with her. She still was not answering the 157 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:13.919 phone even at that time. 158 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:19.600 Okay, So he gets in the cab and gets back home. 159 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:23.440 What does he notice right away? And what does he 160 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:26.279 what does he see? What does he discover? 161 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:30.440 So he kind of starts to theorize with him maybe 162 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:32.960 her phone fell on the floor, maybe it's barry underneath 163 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:35.960 the blankets, and she's just you know, sleeping hard. And 164 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:37.919 so he didn't really know if he should be kind 165 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:40.000 of annoyed with her or if he should be just 166 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:44.240 more understanding that, you know, that she needed her rest. 167 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:46.720 And so, yeah, like you said, he got into a cab, 168 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.240 got home. He was about seven seven minute drive till 169 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:52.399 till they got to their house, and the cab driver 170 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.240 actually ended up missing their house and actually parked into 171 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:59.159 the driveway of the neighbor's house, which their bedroom Christopher 172 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:02.240 and Angela's bedroom window actually overlooked that driveway, and so 173 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:04.000 when he got out of the cab, he kind of 174 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.320 used the opportunity to be a little funny, and so 175 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:09.279 he started knocking on their bedroom window, thinking, well, she's sleeping, 176 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.799 that's definitely gonna wake her up. But he did that 177 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:13.519 a couple more times, and she still didn't come to 178 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.840 the window. She still wasn't answering any text messages. So 179 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:18.600 he kind of went around the other side of the 180 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.440 house where her car was in their own driveway, and 181 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:25.720 I think almost subconsciously, Christopher thought to himself that if 182 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:28.320 the car was warm, there was a chance that maybe 183 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:30.519 she had just woken up late. Maybe she'd gone out 184 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:32.559 to start the car but realized she was going to 185 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:34.480 be too late to pick him up anyways, and just 186 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:36.919 got back in. But then he touched the car and 187 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:38.919 the car was cold. And then that's kind of when 188 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.799 something hid him that something might be wrong. So then 189 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:44.639 he turned around and looked at their house and found 190 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:47.360 that their back door was actually standing wide open. 191 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:56.519 Now he yelled for his wife, Angela fiance, and no response. 192 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:00.879 Why did he not run in and see what the 193 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:06.799 welfare of his son and his wife was and what 194 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:07.399 did he do? 195 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:08.759 Right? Right? 196 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:08.960 So? 197 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:11.480 Right, So as he walked towards the door, he did 198 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:13.639 notice that it appeared to have been kicked in. It 199 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:16.080 wasn't just standing open on its own. It hadn't just 200 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.600 been opened and just blown open and had been kicked in. 201 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:21.840 The lock mechanism was stripped out of the you know, 202 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:24.480 the wood in the door. And so, like you said, yeah, 203 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:28.039 he did yell in there, and I think to him 204 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.759 he just felt something wasn't right and he recognized and 205 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:34.600 I think he was afraid. He was terrified that if 206 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:35.960 he went in there, he was going to find something 207 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:37.000 he didn't want to see. 208 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:38.840 And so what he ended up. 209 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:40.679 Doing is he just stepped right back out and called 210 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:42.879 nine to one one. 211 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:47.919 So police arrive. They want to make sure that he 212 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:51.240 does not go into this house regardless, and they need 213 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:53.919 to make a welfare check. So that's what this is about. 214 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.799 They go inside, everything is clean and immaculate, but there's 215 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.399 a locked bedroom door. They eventually have to kick that 216 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:05.679 door down. What do they find? What's the state of 217 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:07.399 Angela in that room? 218 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:11.759 So when they first walk in, you know, the house 219 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.559 was immaculately clean. There was no sign of any kind 220 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.200 of a struggle. They kicked the bedroom door down and 221 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:19.080 they walked in and they found that that even though 222 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.279 that linens on the bed were kind of rumpled and 223 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.679 messed up, there was nobody in the bed. But as 224 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:26.600 they walked further in, they could see that there were 225 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:30.240 numerous blood stains on the sheets. There were bloodstains soaked 226 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.480 into the sheets where Angela probably would have been laying 227 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:35.639 while she was sleeping, their bloodstains on the pillow where 228 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.440 her head was probably And then as they walked further 229 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:40.960 around the side of the bed, they saw Angela Wilder's 230 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:43.639 body on the floor. She was lying in a pool 231 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:47.440 of blood and essentially her entire body was covered with 232 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.080 blood and what they eventually determined were stab wounds. 233 00:12:55.080 --> 00:13:00.600 Now they obviously know that this is a serious crime scene. 234 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:04.360 They have to secure that Sergeant Dave Goodman is called 235 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:07.240 from the officer or ruel that was at the scene. 236 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:10.480 And again, like I said, they secured the scene and 237 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:16.720 made sure that the Christopher didn't do anything regard regardless 238 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:21.960 of his protestations anyway. And then they also right away 239 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:27.159 had the called the Deputy State Attorney Kelly Dillon to 240 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.440 get a search warrant, so that was all taken care of. 241 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:33.840 And then also the issue of the small son, Carter, 242 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:38.879 while Christopher was being questioned, so social services came in 243 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:44.799 or they dealt with his son while he was being questioned. Now, 244 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.840 tell us a little bit about this questioning and what 245 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:51.159 did they just initially before them makes a decision on 246 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:56.440 what happened exactly what was the state of her body 247 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.799 in terms of wounds, stab wounds. 248 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.919 Well, they weren't able to make a total determination right 249 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.919 there at the scene, but once the crime scene unit 250 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.399 came in and started looking, they noted, you know, that 251 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:15.639 her chest had been riddled with wounds, several cuts and 252 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:19.080 stab wounds. The side of her neck there was a 253 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:20.759 gaping wound on the side of her neck which it 254 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.600 created a significant amount of blood underneath her torso, her 255 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:29.320 head and torso. And then one of the most significant 256 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.240 things that the crime scene unit found, and that was 257 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:35.399 Officer Sergeant Jessica Sundheim is Angela was still wearing her 258 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:37.919 night clothes, so she had on a tank top and 259 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.039 then she also had on a pair of turquoise underwear 260 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:44.159 and on the underwear there was actually bloodstains and the 261 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:48.000 perfect shape of a knife blade, and so what she, 262 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.559 Jessica Sundheim wrote in her report is that the assailant 263 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:55.120 had obviously stopped for a minute and wiped off the 264 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.600 blade on both sides of it on Angela's underwear. 265 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:04.600 And police determined very quickly that this is not a 266 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.720 home invasion gone wrong. There's no theft. This is just 267 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.039 a deeply personal murder, isn't it. 268 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:14.279 Yeah, And you know, it didn't really take long for 269 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:16.320 them to know Angela was not from North Dakota. 270 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:17.799 She was a transplant from Alabama. 271 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.639 She had moved there a few years earlier with her 272 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:23.519 former husband, Richie Wilder Junior, because he joined the military. 273 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:26.360 There's a military base there, air Force base there in Minot. 274 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:30.720 And so through kind of initial interviews with Christopher and 275 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:32.919 you know, some of Angela's family members calling in, they 276 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.759 realized that Angela really didn't have a network friends in 277 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.320 minut It was her and Christopher, her children, and the 278 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.320 only real outside relationship she had with that was that 279 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:46.600 with her ex husband, Richie Wilder Junior. She didn't have 280 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:50.000 a network of friends, She didn't have any family around her, 281 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.000 and so it didn't take very long for them to 282 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.600 figure out that it had to be personal and there 283 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:57.679 was only one or two people that could have possibly 284 00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:58.039 done it. 285 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:04.960 So right away they have to focus and eliminate Christopher Jackson. 286 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:10.039 So they take him for questioning and they get from him. 287 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:12.879 They have to get it from somebody the dating and 288 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:18.720 marital history also of not only he and Angela, but 289 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.639 also Richie in Angela. So tell us what they learn 290 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.799 about this dating and marital history of all these folks. 291 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:30.960 Sure, so, Christopher and Angela had been high school sweethearts. 292 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:33.720 They had dated off and on throughout high school, and 293 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.879 then Angela had kind of when she graduate from high school, 294 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:38.159 she had kind of moved on. She had went off 295 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:39.840 to college for a little bit. She had had another 296 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:43.960 relationship with someone, she had a daughter with that person. 297 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:47.960 When that didn't work out, she moved back home where 298 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.159 she kind of reconnected with Richie Wilder Junior, whom she 299 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:54.320 had known also in early childhood through their Mormon church. 300 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.559 And you know, once she reconnected with rich Wilder Junior, 301 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.559 it didn't really take long for them to decide that 302 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.759 they wanted to date. And then from there it really 303 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:05.799 didn't take long for them to decided they wanted to 304 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:09.119 get married and shortly after they got married, and that's 305 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.400 when Richie joined the Air Force and they moved up 306 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:13.839 to Mina at North Dakota, and within about a year 307 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:16.640 they were already having severe marital issues. They'd only been 308 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.720 married for about two years. They had a second child 309 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.240 on the way, and shortly after their second child was 310 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.480 born in March of twenty twelve, they were in they 311 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:31.599 were in court to get a divorce, and so their 312 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:35.799 divorce was finalized in the spring of twenty thirteen, and 313 00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:38.960 she traveled back to Alabama and then her and Christopher 314 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:42.240 reconnected and then a few months later she found out 315 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.759 that she was pregnant with her and Christopher's baby, and 316 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.799 so he moved up to Mina because Richie would not 317 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:50.759 allow Angela to move back home to Alaba, Alabama, and 318 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.079 so Christopher moved up to Mina, and so that's where 319 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:54.680 they had been for two years at the time. 320 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:56.039 And for murder in twenty fifteen. 321 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:04.400 Now this Cynthia, what's her background and what's her status 322 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.880 with Richie at this time in November of twenty fifteen. 323 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:13.240 Sure so in twenty fifteen November twenty fifteen, Richie and 324 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:16.880 Cynthia Wilder had been married for about two years. Coincidentally, 325 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:19.519 right out about the same time that Angelo was reconnecting 326 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:25.200 with Christopher, Richie was connecting with Cynthia Wilder. At the time, 327 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.640 they worked together at a vocational center in Mine. Not 328 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.200 they were just kind of acquaintance acquaintances at work, you know, 329 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.799 they passed by each other as shift change and things 330 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.039 like that. But Cynthia was really curious about him. She 331 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:39.799 had been kind of dating someone else, but it wasn't 332 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.000 really working out. They was more like friends with benefits, 333 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.400 and she had kind of gotten sick of that cycle, 334 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:46.920 and so she started recognizing Richie and so it was 335 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:49.480 her that actually reached out to him, and that would 336 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:53.240 have been actually New Year's Eve of New Year's Eve 337 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:58.039 of twenty twelve, and then within just a couple of months, 338 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:03.480 Richie and Cynthia were living together in by March twenty thirteen, 339 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:08.640 Cynthia was pregnant, and then by May twenty thirteen I 340 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.720 believe they were married too. So in you know, late 341 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.880 spring early summer twenty thirteen, both Richie and Angela had 342 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:21.039 essentially moved on to new partners. 343 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.720 Let's get back to the police investigating in this. Sergeant 344 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:31.440 Goodman and detective Matisse. Once they talked to Christopher and 345 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:35.880 once they established what do they gleam from Christopher Jackson 346 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:39.920 in terms of just their gut feeling about his culpability 347 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.400 or involvement in this murder, before we talk about their 348 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:48.519 approach and they're speaking with Richie Wilder. 349 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:52.400 Sure, so one of the first things that you know 350 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.720 that we talked about is Christopher didn't go into the house. 351 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.079 And that was one of the first red flags for 352 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:00.559 the detectives is how could this man not have run 353 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:02.519 into his house if there was a chance his family 354 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:04.839 was hurt inside, And that was something that really stuck 355 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.200 with them. They were really bothered by that. But then 356 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:09.920 after about an hour of talking to Christopher, they knew 357 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:14.000 that this man had just had his entire world up, 358 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.960 you know, upside down. In a manner of minutes, they 359 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:20.599 questioned him a second time. He submitted to a polygraph. 360 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:24.799 His tory never changed once he passed the polygraph, and 361 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:27.000 then everyone that they were talking to, all of Angela's 362 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:30.400 family members, were all pointing towards Richie, and so it 363 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.319 wasn't very It didn't take very long for the detectives 364 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.000 to realize that it was probably more likely Richie because 365 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.680 him and Angela had a contentious past. They still had 366 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.480 a contentious relationship because of custody of issues and things 367 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.400 like that, and so it really didn't take long to 368 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.839 shift that focus at all away from Christopher. 369 00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:56.079 Now they record every bit of the interactions with Richie, 370 00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:00.559 so Richie is informed they go to inform him about 371 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.759 what has happened with his wife. So they're they're getting 372 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.920 his reaction to this news as well, and they're also 373 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:14.279 gauging and noting and studying his reaction to everything that 374 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:19.200 they're going to ask him about this investigation, since they're 375 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.519 keying in as a next logical suspect in all of this. 376 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:27.599 So what does Richie say, How does he act? Give 377 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:29.319 us a little bit, as you do in the book, 378 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:35.359 a scene on how he reacts to the police questioning him. 379 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.440 Sure, so Richie was brought down on the police station 380 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.920 actually just a few hours after Christopher Jackson was, and 381 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.039 they were actually seated in rooms right next to each other, 382 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:46.400 although neither of the men knew it at the time, 383 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:49.039 but Richie kind of walked in with an air confidence 384 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.400 about him, you know, he had kind of alluded to 385 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.400 the police that he'd heard maybe a snippet here there 386 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:55.920 something was going on at his ex wife's house, but 387 00:21:55.960 --> 00:22:00.519 he wasn't really sure his wife had the I'm Cynthia 388 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.440 Wilder had dropped off their older daughter that Angela and 389 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.119 Richie shared together. Had dropped off their older daughter at 390 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.680 the elementary school across from Angela's house. Cynthia called Richie 391 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.000 to let him know that there was police tape over 392 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.519 there were police cars over there. But you know, Richie, 393 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:17.680 when he came into the police department, police department had 394 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:20.559 sat down with detectives. He just just figured it was 395 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:22.519 another day in the life of Angela to have police 396 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:24.720 cars all around her house. It's just how Angela lived 397 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.759 her life. There was always drama going on around her. 398 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.640 So when he was finally told that Angela had been murdered, 399 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:35.519 he showed absolutely no reaction whatsoever. He literally just kind 400 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:39.519 of shrugged his shoulders and said, oh really, And that 401 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.200 was a huge red flag for them, and they and 402 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.799 they and the detectives immediately pounced on it, you know, 403 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.640 and said he listened. We know that your your ex partners, 404 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.400 your ex spouses, but when you find out something like 405 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.799 this happens to someone that you once loved there is 406 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:57.240 a visceral reaction ship that should happen here. And once 407 00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:58.960 they kind of called him on that, and then, you know, 408 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.039 another thing that they they saw right away is that 409 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:03.920 Richie had had what appeared to be a fresh scratch. 410 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:04.079 On his face. 411 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.920 Right and they knew all they knew already that Angela 412 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.279 had likely fought pretty hard for her life. She had 413 00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:12.720 broken fingernails, you know, the curn scene unit had had 414 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:15.720 found that, and so right away when Dave Goodman saw 415 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.119 that scratch on his face, it was like a you know, 416 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:23.240 just right away, something happened here, you know, and Richie, Richie, 417 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:27.799 Richie really really never answered any question directly. He kind 418 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.319 of went back and forth, He went in circles, He mumbled, 419 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:33.279 he stuttered, He all the signs of someone who just 420 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:35.680 wasn't telling the truth. And it was very obvious. And 421 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:38.279 then once they kind of started to tell him he 422 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:40.160 doesn't look good for you here, then he. 423 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:40.920 Got real nervous. 424 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:43.240 His you know, his his legs started pumping dumb it down. 425 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:46.400 He started ringing his fingers together, swallowing hard. 426 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:49.359 You know, it was just it was it was very 427 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:50.880 obvious that he was hiding. 428 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:57.039 Something at this first interview that he spoke to police, 429 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:00.880 what does he say about Christopher and how does he 430 00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:04.240 sort of direct their suspicions towards Christopher. 431 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.200 Initially, Sure, well, he first of all says that he 432 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:10.680 first of all says that Christopher is a nice guy, 433 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.119 that the two children that he shared with Angela, as 434 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:16.240 far as you know, Christopher becoming their stepdad one day, 435 00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:17.480 he's fine with that. 436 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:19.400 How he kind of. 437 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:22.240 Manipulated and turned it around to how Christopher might have 438 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:25.200 done something is by painting Angela as someone who may 439 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.319 have deserved to have something like this happened to her. 440 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.319 That he could understand if Christopher had done something like 441 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:34.599 this because Angela was difficult to live with, a difficult person. 442 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:38.599 She caused problems for basically everyone who came around her, 443 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:41.160 and I think that's what they tried to What they 444 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:44.160 tried to do is that Angela causes relationship issues with 445 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:49.000 every with many people, including Christopher, and therefore he could 446 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:50.920 understand if Christopher had done something like this. 447 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:57.720 They also press him many times when he makes it, 448 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:00.839 tries to cite examples, but with the out any specific 449 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:03.279 so they're not easy on him. There's they're sort of 450 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:06.519 pressing him when they see that he is is rattled 451 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:09.480 and not so confident. But they really don't get too 452 00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:14.160 much out of him, except now they have to get 453 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:17.880 a search warrant for his wife's vehicle. Why is that 454 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.079 tell us about what they have to get a warrant for? 455 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:21.960 And why. 456 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:23.480 Sure? 457 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:26.079 Well, they mean, you know, they acted very quickly. They 458 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:31.680 didn't waste any time. They got warrant secured for Richie's vehicle, 459 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:37.920 Cynthia's vehicle, their apartment. They're electronics, Christopher's electronics, you know, 460 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:42.319 Christopher's car, his computers, everything like that. And so that afternoon, 461 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:45.200 the same afternoon in Angela's body was found, they were 462 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:48.400 at Cynthia Wilder's elementary school that she taught kindergarten at, 463 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.319 checking her vehicle. And that was at you know, three 464 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.559 point thirty in the afternoon. Angela Wilder's body was found 465 00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:57.559 at you know, shortly after seven am. And so within 466 00:25:57.720 --> 00:25:59.480 just a you know, by the end of the day, 467 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:04.599 they were up they're already executing all these warrants. 468 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:08.079 They also had to speak to Cynthia as well, because 469 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.200 there is a possibility that he has to you know, 470 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.960 when he spoke. He also had an alibi for that evening. 471 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.920 So tell us about the alibi, and now, of course 472 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:22.000 the detectives need to speak to her, see what she 473 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:22.720 has to say. 474 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:26.640 Yeah, So, Richie's alibi was that he worked that night. 475 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:30.839 He was working as a CNA at Trinity Hospital. His 476 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:32.960 alibi is that he worked from seven to eleven PM 477 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:35.440 that night and that he went directly home afterwards, and 478 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:40.279 that he never left his house again. His wife corroborate, 479 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:45.480 corroborated that story. Later that afternoon, Cynthia Wilder said that 480 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.599 they were home in bed, that one of their children 481 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:50.599 had woken up twice during the middle of the night 482 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:53.839 and she had tended to those while Richie was still 483 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:57.319 fast asleep. She said that he was home the entire night. 484 00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:59.480 They were both very steadfast and saying that he never 485 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:00.480 left the house us that night. 486 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:05.000 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for these messages. 487 00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.000 It is Ryan here and I have a question for you. 488 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:10.160 What do you do when you win? 489 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:10.640 Like? 490 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:13.920 Are you a fist pumper, a woo, a handclapper, a 491 00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:15.759 high fiver? I kind of like the high five. 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Given the information that both 503 00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:56.880 of these people gave them, tell us about the vehicle 504 00:27:57.039 --> 00:27:57.920 search of the vehicle. 505 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.799 Sure, so, while they were searching the vehicle, they had 506 00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:05.680 Cynthia Wilder in the principal's office at Loos and Clark 507 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:10.519 Elementary School, which I mentioned she taught kindergarten. She basically 508 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:12.039 had the same reaction as Richie. 509 00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:13.039 She had heard some. 510 00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:15.559 Things here and there about it that something was going 511 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:17.480 on at Angela's house. She had seen the police cars 512 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:20.119 that morning, but didn't really think that much about it. 513 00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:22.880 She said the same thing as Richie. Didn't surprise her 514 00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:26.759 that Angela would have police cars over there. And then 515 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.559 also when she was told that Angelo's phone dead, there 516 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:35.759 was again no reaction whatsoever, and she reiterated that Richie 517 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:38.119 had been home all night, and so the police knew 518 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:38.559 right away. 519 00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:40.680 But her reaction too, and. 520 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:44.160 It's noted in Detective Matisa's report, is that Cynthia was shaking. 521 00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:47.920 She was very nervous. They knew she was very nervous. 522 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:50.880 And while they're talking to her the crime. 523 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.119 Sceneion is out searching her Honda Pilot. 524 00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:58.079 And it's pristinely clean everywhere except one spot on the 525 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:02.039 passenger side door panel, and it's just a very small, 526 00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:07.400 very very small spot of like a reddish, reddish brown stain. 527 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:10.799 Nothing else stood out in the car from that, and 528 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:14.160 so they did end up swabbing that, for example, to 529 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.599 send to the Bismarck crime Lab for testing. 530 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:23.279 Now we mentioned you mentioned about the that they knew 531 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:26.440 that were broken fingernails from Angela from the crime scene, 532 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:29.240 and so there was also they were awaiting the DNA 533 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:32.680 results from that as well. 534 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:36.960 M Yes, they yet the uh the medical examiner had 535 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.079 taken DNA from underneath Angela's fingernails, and then they had 536 00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:43.680 that reddish brown stain that they had taken a swab of, 537 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:46.519 and both of those went to the crime lab for 538 00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:51.079 testing for DNA, and it was about two weeks after 539 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:53.480 two or three weeks after that they got those results back. 540 00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:56.799 And what were those results? 541 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:03.000 The DNA underneath and fingernails was Richie Wilder Juniors. And 542 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:06.920 the stain that was in Cynthia Wilder's Honda Pilot was 543 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:07.880 in fact blood. 544 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:09.240 And it was Angela Wilder's blood. 545 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:16.640 Now, as a result of this, what happens in terms 546 00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:23.519 of Richie his attorney is Carrie Rosenquist, and in terms 547 00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:28.240 of trying to account for the first interview that he 548 00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:32.839 had where police basically are accusing him of this murder. 549 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:38.200 What's his reaction? His lawyer is there? What does he 550 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:40.400 have to say to police? 551 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.759 So Richie was arrested, you know, almost five weeks to 552 00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.839 the day after Angela's murder. And when he was first arrested, 553 00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:49.000 he didn't say anything. He wouldn't say anything, He wouldn't 554 00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:51.079 talk to anybody. But then he got a little bit 555 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:57.279 antsy in sitting in jail. And so in March of 556 00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:04.759 twenty sixteen, the state's attorney Kelly Dillon and Dave Goodman 557 00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:09.200 got word from Richie's lawyer, Carrie Rosenquist that Richie had 558 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:12.599 a story to tell. And so they sat down with 559 00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:16.319 sat down with Richie and his lawyer. I believe it 560 00:31:16.359 --> 00:31:20.519 was March twenty sixteen, and the detectives just kind of 561 00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:24.039 sat and listened to Richie kind of spill this story. 562 00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:28.119 And the story was that him and Christopher had met 563 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:31.039 at Longfellow Elementary School when exchanging the kids one day, 564 00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:34.039 and Christopher kind of pulled Richie aside to tell him that, 565 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.559 you know, things weren't going real well with him and Angela. 566 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:40.000 He wanted out, but he wanted custody of his son, Carter, 567 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:44.680 and so he wanted to enlist Richie in helping him 568 00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:47.960 get full custody. And so he told Richie that Angela's 569 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.359 cheating on him, and he came up with a plan 570 00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.359 that if Christopher and Richie could catch Angela in the 571 00:31:53.400 --> 00:31:57.839 act of cheating, then Richie could testify for Christopher on 572 00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:00.680 his behalf, and then Christopher could in turn and testify 573 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:03.960 for Richie that Angela had taken the kids out of 574 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:06.559 the state so that both men could get cuts to 575 00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:08.839 the other kids and not have to share it with 576 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:09.799 Angela anymore. 577 00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:11.319 And so. 578 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:15.880 Richie told the detectives that Christopher had given him a 579 00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.680 burner phone he had given him two pictures of Angela 580 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:21.519 and Christopher and the kids out of state, which they 581 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:23.759 were not supposed to do according to the divorce agreement 582 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:28.359 in child custody arrangements. And Richie was just to wait 583 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:30.400 until Christopher called him and told him that it was 584 00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:32.960 time to go to catch Angela in the act of cheating, 585 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:35.359 and so. 586 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:39.440 This he was ready to go if this didn't happen 587 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:42.559 right away. But within days he did get a call. 588 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:44.759 Tell us the call. 589 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:49.680 He did, yes, So on November twelfth, it would have 590 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:52.200 been well, it actually would have been the early morning hours, 591 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:55.160 and November thirteenth, as Richie claimed, about one thirty in 592 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:57.839 the morning, Christopher called him on the burner phone and said, 593 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.680 it's time. It's time to do it. It's time to 594 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:02.759 do it. And so Richie didn't know what was going 595 00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:05.319 to happen, but he drove out to Walmart and he 596 00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.799 picked up Christopher, and him and Christopher drove back to 597 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:11.680 Angela and Christopher's house. And Richie said that him and Christopher, 598 00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:13.480 you know, walked into the house and everything was quiet. 599 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:17.000 It was dark, you know. They made their way down 600 00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:20.480 the little hallway into the master bedroom, where they opened 601 00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:22.359 up the door and found it. It was dark and 602 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:24.359 there was a you know, a little bit of light 603 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:26.599 from a TV playing in the corner, but it looked 604 00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.680 like two people were in the bed. And so at 605 00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:31.519 this point, Richie says to the detectives that he's convinced 606 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:32.839 that Christopher is telling the truth. 607 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:35.839 Angela really is cheating on him, on Christopher. 608 00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:39.279 And so, according to Richie, Christopher walked over to the 609 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:41.799 bed and he pulled the bedding back, but instead of 610 00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:44.720 another man laying with Angela, it was actually a body pillow, 611 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.079 so there was nobody actually there with Angela. But Richie 612 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:51.279 continued with the detectives and said, but that didn't seem 613 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.319 to deter Christopher. And in fact, what Christopher did is 614 00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:56.079 that he went over to Angela's side of the bed 615 00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:59.279 and just began kind of and and Richie pantomimed this 616 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.000 with his with his handcuff's hands to the detectives that 617 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:06.200 Christopher just basically started doing a pumping motion. And then 618 00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:09.599 Richie kind of assumed that it must have been him 619 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:12.119 stabbing her because then he began to see Angela's blood 620 00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:16.119 coming out, and then Christopher, you know, and then Angela 621 00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:18.639 started to fight back and then Christopher pulled her down 622 00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:22.159 to the floor and kept kept stabbing her, to which 623 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:28.960 point Richie valiantly ran over and you know, intervened, and 624 00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:33.920 while Christopher took a break, he checked Angela's pulse and 625 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.519 according to Richie, this is how he got the scratch 626 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.760 on his face. She reached up scratch his face and said, Richie, 627 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:43.679 I love you. Then Richie got up and ran outside 628 00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:51.360 the room, while Christopher evidently allegedly continued stabbing Angela. 629 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:53.760 H yeah, and then he said he wanted to He 630 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:58.239 waited in the living room to confront him, saying, what 631 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:02.000 did you do that man? Something like something like that. So, 632 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:07.400 just to continuum of this, as you write a preposterous story, 633 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:12.119 what was the what was Sergeant Goodman and what was 634 00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:13.840 his reaction to this story? 635 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.199 Goodman is fascinating to watch and what he does. He 636 00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:19.679 kind of just sat there stoically. He'd throw in a 637 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.280 question here or there, you know, just to see if 638 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.000 he could elicit anything additional or you know, just to 639 00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:29.400 see if anything from the get go made sense about 640 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.519 Richie's story. But then he just kind of sat back 641 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:34.159 and waited for Richie to finish, and then he kind 642 00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:34.960 of dropped a little bit. 643 00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:36.159 Of a bombshell on him. 644 00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:40.239 And what was that bombshell? 645 00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:43.719 Well, Richie had claimed that he went to pick up 646 00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:46.480 Christopher from work at his lunch break at two o'clock 647 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:49.519 in the morning, and that he brought Christopher, and that 648 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:51.039 he brought Christopher back. 649 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:53.239 Just a short. 650 00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:56.320 Time later to Walmart. Well, everybody knows that there's cameras 651 00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:58.440 everywhere in Walmart. Well, everybody except. 652 00:35:58.239 --> 00:35:59.480 Ritchie, apparently he knows that. 653 00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:04.400 Yeah, and so Goodman had just received an additional batch 654 00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:08.440 of security footage from the Walmart security team the night before, 655 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.840 and so they had spent hours the night before watching 656 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:16.280 this video and it proved that Christopher never left Walmart 657 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:18.599 that night, and so they knew right away that Richie 658 00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:22.719 was lying. And he confronted Richie with that that his 659 00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:24.719 story didn't make sense because there was no way that 660 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:30.519 Christopher left, And shortly after that, then Richie's lawyer, Rosenquist, 661 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:32.239 then said, hey, you can stop whenever you want, and 662 00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:34.000 then that effectively ended the interview. 663 00:36:36.840 --> 00:36:42.239 Yeah, so they confront him about that, and now as well, 664 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:47.280 due diligence, these detectives have to check out Christopher. Well, 665 00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:50.280 they have to check out Richie's story as preposterous and 666 00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:52.519 implausible as it is, they have to check it out, 667 00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:56.880 and in the process they tell Christopher about Richie's story, 668 00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:03.880 so he is defiant about that completely. Meanwhile, Richie's defense 669 00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:07.559 team hires their own private investigator, this guy named Ross 670 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:15.480 Rollschoven And so now Richie and his defense attorney are 671 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:20.559 now telling this guy how things went down, and he 672 00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:23.119 is not just accepting every story as well. So tell 673 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:27.159 us a little bit about this character, Ross Rollschovin and 674 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:32.679 his investigation as he's hired by Richie's defense team. 675 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.239 Yeah, so he was actually hired. He has actually hired 676 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:39.199 just a few days before Richie and his lawyer sat 677 00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:42.079 down with the detectives for the first time and told 678 00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.639 the story about Christopher giving him a phone and pictures 679 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:49.199 and things like that. And so Ross Rolshoefin, he's out 680 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.239 of Grand Force. He's a fantastic detective. He works mainly 681 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.400 on you know, things that happen in the oil fields 682 00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:58.440 around North Dakota and Minnesota, but he has his fair 683 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.599 share of federal murder case is under. 684 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:01.119 His belt as well. 685 00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:05.000 So they had really got hired the best of the 686 00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:08.199 best in him to try to find any possible way 687 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:11.360 that Richie Wylder was not guilty of murdering Angela Wylder. 688 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.079 But by the time Ross met with Richie face to face, 689 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.760 Richie had determined that the original store he went with 690 00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:21.599 wasn't going to work anymore, so he had come up 691 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:24.599 with a new one. By the time mister Rolservan was 692 00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:29.039 there meeting with him this time, Richie claimed that while 693 00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:31.920 Christopher wasn't there and he wasn't want the one who 694 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:34.400 murdered Angela, he was in fact the one who orchestrated 695 00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:37.239 it in an effort to frame Richie, And so at 696 00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:41.119 this point Richie is claiming that there was an Hispanic 697 00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:44.239 man and an African American man at Angela's house that night. 698 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:46.960 Christopher had indeed called him on this Burner phone, but 699 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:49.079 for whatever reason, Richie had gone down to the house. 700 00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:52.239 But when he walked into the house, he found Angela 701 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.480 on the floor already dead. At this point, someone came 702 00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:57.559 up behind him and stuck something in his back and 703 00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:01.239 made him stand up and walk outside. The African American 704 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:03.679 man and the Hispanic man both told that told him 705 00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:07.239 that if he told anyone what they saw what he saw, 706 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:12.400 they would kill him. And his family, and so now 707 00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:15.320 he knew he hadn't recognized those two men before, but 708 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:17.440 now he did. It was a new cellmate that he 709 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:19.920 had just gotten named Paul Madrialis, and he was confident. 710 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.199 And now he was telling. 711 00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:23.239 Everybody that Paul Madrealis had actually been the one to 712 00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:26.719 murder Angela and was hired as a hitman by Christopher Jackson. 713 00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:39.239 Yeah, so this ongoing conspiracy to try to undo what 714 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:44.119 he had already done. Also, this is also one of 715 00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:47.639 the factors is that all of these phone calls and 716 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:51.440 all electronic devices would be later be able to be accessed. 717 00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:55.519 But also any contact on phones with Richie in prison, 718 00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:59.599 with his mother Geneva, or with his wife Cynthia were 719 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:01.480 also recorded as well, weren't. 720 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:08.239 They yep, m hm, yes, And he made plenty of 721 00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:11.960 them any chance which he could get, he was on 722 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:15.599 the phone. And at this point he had actually thought 723 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:19.199 anyways that he had recruited another cellmate who was eventually 724 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:23.119 released from jail to do some bitting for him against 725 00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:24.400 Paul Madrila's. 726 00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:29.400 So briefly, not to give this too much credibility, but basically, 727 00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:32.360 what did he have these people? What did he attempt 728 00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:36.639 to have these people do in terms of his taking 729 00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:40.480 the heat off him as a murderer. What grand scheme 730 00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:41.719 did he have to be able to do that? 731 00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:47.039 Well, he thought that because Paul Madrelais was actually let 732 00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:49.679 out on bond as well, and so that left Richie 733 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.679 still imprison by himself, you know, in jail by himself, 734 00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:56.679 and he had made another connection with another man named 735 00:40:56.719 --> 00:41:00.239 Adam Monsige while he was in jail, and Ritchie's got 736 00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.119 that Adam Munzig was just kind of a puppet that 737 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:05.519 he could kind of control, and so what he did 738 00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:10.000 was Richie is actually the one who bailed out Adam Munzige. 739 00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:11.800 Actually Cynthia Wilders. 740 00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.280 The one who did that on Richie's direction, failed out 741 00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:17.159 Adam mon Sigue. And I think eventually what it was 742 00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:19.920 it was believed to be supposed to happen, is that 743 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:23.599 while Richie was working on the inside to help Adam 744 00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:26.280 Monsig in any charges he had against him, which we 745 00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:28.639 now know, Richie had no power to do that. Clearly, 746 00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:32.840 Adam mons Sigue was probably supposed to kill Paul Madrialist, 747 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:35.960 write out of suicide note and make it look like 748 00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:37.880 he had committed suicide because he couldn't live with the 749 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:42.480 guilt of killing Angela Wilder. But Adam Munseig never got 750 00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.320 to that point, thank goodness. And it's pretty much speculated 751 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:47.679 that he had never intended to either, that he was 752 00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:51.880 just stringing Richie along and getting some financial benefits during 753 00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:55.679 during during, during that. But as soon as Richie actually 754 00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:58.599 started telling people in jail that Adam Munzig was a 755 00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:01.760 hit man for him, Adam on seeing that, no, no more, 756 00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:05.960 I'm not involved in this at all. So once more 757 00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.280 Richie's mouths got him, got him in trouble. 758 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:12.800 And all the meanwhile, you have you document all of 759 00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:16.920 the desperate attempts by this guy number one. He thinks 760 00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:19.719 he's a really bright guy, and he's much smarter than 761 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:22.760 the inmates that he's dealing with, and yet he's got 762 00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:26.360 he's manipulating his mother and his wife to be able 763 00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:28.280 to bail out these guys, and he's telling them that 764 00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.599 he's very very confident his wife and his mother that 765 00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:33.960 he should be able to get these charges dealt with. 766 00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:39.840 So he's a consummate liar. That's that's evidence here. So 767 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.719 the thing is is that he is desperate to be 768 00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.440 able to get things done before a certain deadline. He 769 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:50.599 needs to get this Paul Madrill's gone, but then he's 770 00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:53.599 arrested again, and then he needs to get this done 771 00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:57.480 before he's incarcerated again, he believes, So you document all 772 00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:04.239 of this three stooges of I'm here. But eventually he 773 00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:08.760 goes to trial with Judge Gary Lee. So tell us 774 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.559 a little bit about this trial. 775 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:16.599 Sure, well, you know, I think all along, from the 776 00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:19.840 time he was arrested in December two thousand and fifteen 777 00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:22.480 till the time he actually went to trial in December 778 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:25.280 of twenty sixteen, I think Richie thought this. 779 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:26.519 Was just a game to be played. 780 00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:28.920 I think he really thought that there's no way that 781 00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.159 he'd be convicted of this, that he could explain anything 782 00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:35.400 away that no one saw through the lies that he 783 00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:39.360 was telling. And so really, you know, his trial was 784 00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:43.039 supposed to last about two weeks. It lasted about three 785 00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:48.199 days because his lawyer didn't put on any witnesses, he 786 00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:53.480 didn't provide any defense whatsoever. Actually, he didn't do anything. 787 00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:56.400 He didn't give jurors any glimpse or any opportunity to 788 00:43:56.480 --> 00:44:00.400 understand what might be an alternative theory. You know, even 789 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:02.079 though it was very clear that Richie was guilty, but 790 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:05.119 certainly his defense could have done something, but they didn't. 791 00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:07.760 And so this trial lasted for about three days and 792 00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:10.320 it was all the prosecution and the jury was out 793 00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:10.920 for less. 794 00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:13.480 Than an hour to come back and convict him of murder. 795 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:20.559 Yeah, it's it's fascinating too that he did do what 796 00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:28.119 could considered a vigorous cross examination of the prosecution witnesses. However, 797 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:32.840 when it came time, even in his opening statement, it 798 00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:37.719 was inadequate and bizarre, as you right, closing statement as well, 799 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:40.599 and this this idea that he wouldn't even mount a defense, 800 00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:46.039 it was, as you say, surprising and shocking. 801 00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:52.480 Yeah, it was, you know, just allowing Richie to kind 802 00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:58.960 of continue to spout these conspiracy theories, you know, of 803 00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.719 a fiance and contract killers, and you know, it was 804 00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:05.119 I write in the book it was a thing out 805 00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:07.199 of the stories he was telling, was a thing out 806 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:07.719 of movies. 807 00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:09.519 And it was just very. 808 00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:14.280 Surprising that, you know, that his lawyer didn't try to 809 00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:19.360 do something to change that trajectory of Richie just constantly 810 00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:23.079 digging holes for himself over and over and over again, 811 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:25.239 deeper and deeper and deeper every time. 812 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:32.639 You write that. It's also odd that either that either 813 00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:39.880 the attorney either knew or as as Cynthia had said that, 814 00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:45.719 Richie claimed later because I'm jumping ahead, that the Rosenquist 815 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:50.599 had suggested the story. However, it seemed that like unlikely 816 00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:55.039 that would be. However, you you say that, it's also 817 00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:58.199 very odd that he would have sat through, you know, 818 00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:06.000 two preposterous story worries that were super implausible, right, and 819 00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:10.159 then yet and yet still defend this guy at trial? 820 00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:15.639 Did Richie just for those people listening, the prosecution thought 821 00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:19.679 that Richie might really want to take the stand. Did 822 00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:20.679 Richie take the stand? 823 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:27.039 No, No, not at all. They were very surprised by that. 824 00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:27.960 The prosecution was. 825 00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.400 And I you know, and that might be the one 826 00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:33.000 time that his lawyer did say, you're done talking now, 827 00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:35.360 we enough talking. 828 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:38.000 Yeah. 829 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:42.039 The evidence they did have was essentially some damning evidence 830 00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:45.320 was the two interviews with Richie lying and being caught 831 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:47.679 in a lie and then being told by Goodman and 832 00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:51.159 confronted by Goodman and Matisse. So it was very very telling, 833 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:57.440 compelling and damaging you right that right after though Cynthia, 834 00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:00.480 people didn't really notice that Cynthia was sitting in the 835 00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:04.679 court right behind the defense table. How did they react 836 00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:10.360 when Richie was sentenced to this life without parule. What 837 00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.440 was Cynthia's reaction and how did they respond to each other, 838 00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:18.079 knowing it was unlikely they would see each other again. 839 00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:24.480 She she was very emotional in the courtroom. Her sister 840 00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:26.199 had to, you know, kind of calm her down. She 841 00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:29.719 was very emotional in the hallway. When interviewed by reporters, 842 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:33.320 she was still maintaining that there's no way Richie could 843 00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:35.519 have done it, that he was home with her all night, 844 00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:39.079 how much she loves his how much he loves his children, 845 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:40.679 what a great man he is. 846 00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:42.840 She was still singing his praises. 847 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:47.800 And with but you know, with I don't think that 848 00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:51.519 as far as like police records go, there are no 849 00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:54.039 additional recordings that I have picked up anyways, of the 850 00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:57.559 two of them talking after he was convicted, because very 851 00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:01.679 shortly afterwards she had the more to say herself. 852 00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:05.079 And it wasn't very long before before, you. 853 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:12.639 Know, let's talk about her behavior right after this man 854 00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:17.599 that she stands up for, that she supports. She's there 855 00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:22.840 in the courtroom crying over what does she do shortly after? 856 00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:27.719 Well, she not to go back too far, but and 857 00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:32.280 I won't belabor this, but Richie was arrested in December 858 00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:35.960 of twenty fifteen. By January of twenty sixteen, Cynthia was 859 00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:38.599 already sleeping with someone else. She had already started a 860 00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:41.119 relationship with someone else and reaching out to an ex 861 00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:44.360 boyfriend and starting up a new relationship. By the time 862 00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:45.960 Richie was convicted. 863 00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:46.800 Just a couple of. 864 00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:49.440 Days later, she was going out on the town with 865 00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:50.840 one of her ex lovers. 866 00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:58.480 Matt walters, Now, what does he tell? What is he 867 00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:01.679 told by Cynthia? And then how does it get to 868 00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:04.760 the point where the police find out about some of 869 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:05.760 these conversations. 870 00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:11.119 Sure, so, while Richie sat in jail, Cynthia and Matt 871 00:49:11.239 --> 00:49:15.000 began communicating again over Facebook messenger, and it was Cynthia 872 00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:17.519 who reached out to him to facilitate that sort of reconnection. 873 00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:22.119 And you know, she would drop hints here and there 874 00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:24.360 of you know, how she felt about how things were going, 875 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:27.679 how she felt about Richie being in jail waiting trial 876 00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:29.920 for the murder of his ex wife, you know, and 877 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:32.320 Matt would kind of say things here and there too, like, 878 00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:35.679 you know, how stupid was he to think about doing this? 879 00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:38.360 And one of the things that Matt said was how 880 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:39.920 stupid was it of Richie to use. 881 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:41.440 A knife to do this? 882 00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:45.960 And Cynthia wrote back and said, essentially, it wasn't supposed 883 00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:48.320 to be a knife, supposed to be a gun. And 884 00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:50.880 this automatically made you know, the hairs on the back 885 00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:54.400 of Matt Walter's net kind of stand up, saying, Wow, 886 00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:57.400 she's been telling me for a long time she knows 887 00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.519 nothing about this. So he kind of let it go 888 00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:01.480 for a little but then she kept kind of dropping 889 00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:04.400 these weird things here and there. So he finally reached 890 00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:06.519 out to Mind at the police department because he did 891 00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:08.480 not want to have anything to do with it. If 892 00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:10.679 she had truly been involved with it, he did not want. 893 00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:13.360 To be drawn into it as well, and so. 894 00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:18.280 Within a few weeks then they made him a confidential informant. 895 00:50:18.760 --> 00:50:21.280 And so what Cynthia thought was going to be a 896 00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:23.239 really fun date out on the town with her former 897 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:26.960 lover was actually Matt Walters sitting with a recording device 898 00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:29.760 in his car and on his phone to record everything 899 00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:30.239 she said. 900 00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:36.480 And she did say much more damaging things, didn't she 901 00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:37.599 And you have this? 902 00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:40.719 She did? She did? She did? 903 00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:43.760 She She basically laid it all out for Matt. 904 00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:44.840 Walter's how. 905 00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:49.119 Yes, Richie absolutely did kill Angela, not only that, but 906 00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:50.480 because Angela deserved it. 907 00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:54.639 Cynthia was still very much adamant that it had to happen. 908 00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:57.480 She revealed that her and Richie had planned it for 909 00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:01.400 two years, that she ended actually had been stocking Angela. 910 00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:03.159 She had been sitting outside her house at night to 911 00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:05.199 find out when Angela would be home alone and Christopher 912 00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:09.159 would be gone at work. You know, she said things like, 913 00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:11.800 you know, Richie got sloppy. She was mad at him 914 00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:14.280 for getting sloppy. She was mad at him for leading DNA. 915 00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:17.440 She was very explicit in what she would have done 916 00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:20.239 differently to make sure that there hadn't been any DNA there. 917 00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:23.480 And it was just sort of like this verbal volcano 918 00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:26.360 of everything that the detectives had been waiting to hear, 919 00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:30.000 and it was just it just an avalanche that just 920 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:32.480 came out of Cynthia, and within a few days Cynthia 921 00:51:32.519 --> 00:51:33.239 was also arrested. 922 00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:38.920 You talk about the trial as well, because Kelly Dylan, 923 00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:43.039 the prosecutor, is just dying to be able to prosecute her, 924 00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:47.199 and also at this trial, she has an opportunity to 925 00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:51.280 cross examine Cynthia on the stand as well, So she 926 00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:56.400 really wants this opportunity just tell us about this trial. 927 00:51:58.199 --> 00:52:00.679 Sure, So it kind of went back and forth because 928 00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:03.639 initially Cynthia wanted to go with not guilty, but then 929 00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:06.679 she was eventually talked into maybe you should submit an 930 00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:10.719 Alford plea, which is essentially admitting that the state has 931 00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:13.920 enough information against you to probably find you guilty. And 932 00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:16.960 so Cynthia was up on the stand and Kelly Dylan 933 00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:19.280 was asking her, you know about all these things that 934 00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:23.320 supposedly Richie and Cynthia had accused Angela of. They had 935 00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:28.679 accused her of physically, psychologically, emotionally abusing their children, And 936 00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:32.639 so Kelly Dylan asked Cynthia Welder, give us an example 937 00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:33.760 of what Angela did. 938 00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:35.159 For any of these things. 939 00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:39.599 And the only example she could give was when Angela 940 00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:42.599 and Richie were married several years prior. There were no 941 00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:46.760 other examples, and it was it. And the other thing 942 00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:48.840 is is that Cynthia never said she was sorry, She 943 00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:54.239 never expressed any remorse, and the judge had no choice 944 00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:56.000 but to hold her accountable for that. 945 00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:00.760 She had been offered a plea agreement, but she declined. 946 00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:04.880 They didn't expect they didn't expect the reaction from the judge. 947 00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:06.320 What was the judge's reaction? 948 00:53:07.719 --> 00:53:09.920 Sure, they had asked the state had asked for a 949 00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:13.800 twenty five year sentence, her lawyer had asked for a 950 00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:16.599 ten year sentence, I believe, and the judge gave her 951 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:17.480 life without parole. 952 00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:25.639 Yeah, we haven't mentioned. Just as an aside, Ritchie was arrested. 953 00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:29.119 They noticed he was trying to escape, so he was 954 00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:33.440 arrested convicted of attempted to escape along with her sentence 955 00:53:34.280 --> 00:53:38.920 and convictions were her aiding and abetting him in his 956 00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:40.800 plan to escape. 957 00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:44.000 Yes, yep, that one she did admit to. 958 00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:49.719 Right now, all of a sudden, done these both people 959 00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:53.480 are are going to be doing life without parole. You 960 00:53:53.559 --> 00:53:57.800 reached out to Cynthia in prison. Tell us a little 961 00:53:57.800 --> 00:53:58.280 bit about that. 962 00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:02.800 Sure, So we began emailing in October of twenty eighteen, 963 00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:05.320 which was actually just about three months after she was 964 00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:07.400 originally sentenced, so she had only been in prison for 965 00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:10.559 about three months. And we exchanged emails for several months, 966 00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:12.840 and then I eventually went and visited her in prison, 967 00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:16.400 and throughout the course of our email correspondence, she also 968 00:54:16.760 --> 00:54:19.760 kind of divulged some new information to me. She actually 969 00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:23.400 admitted that she knew that Richie had done this, She 970 00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:26.960 knew that he came home and had had tried to 971 00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:29.960 clean himself off and things like that. And then by 972 00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:31.559 the time I got to visit her in prison, she 973 00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:34.400 actually added on that she had given him a duffel 974 00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:36.119 bag to get rid of his bloody clothes and the 975 00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:37.440 weapon that night. 976 00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:45.239 Right, What else did you You didn't just contact her 977 00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:49.519 for that information, yet that's very valuable information that you wanted. 978 00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:54.440 What else did you find from this correspondence? What did 979 00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:59.599 she impart to you about her life and maybe even motivations? 980 00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:03.760 Sure, I mean she had you know, she she had 981 00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:08.079 a troubled upbringing her her mom. Her relationship with her 982 00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:11.760 mom was not good. Her mom was kind of promiscuous, 983 00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:14.320 didn't spend a whole lot of time at home, you know, 984 00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:17.960 And you know, Cynthia always vollowed that she wasn't going 985 00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:19.719 to be like that, but she actually did kind of 986 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:20.360 turn out like that. 987 00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:23.679 You know, she hadn't. She had been married prior to. 988 00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:26.519 Richie, and she had cheated on him numerous times over 989 00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:30.880 and over again, and she believed you know, in the end, 990 00:55:31.880 --> 00:55:34.760 I think she was easily impressionable but in the end, 991 00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:37.119 you know, she believed everything Richie told her about Angela, 992 00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:40.159 even though most of it was lies, and Cynthia never 993 00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:43.480 bothered to Actually Cynthia and Angela actually never talked to 994 00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:46.400 one another. She just hated Angela because of what Richie 995 00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:50.280 said about her, but she never actually knew Angela. And 996 00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:55.159 the issue that I still have here is that is 997 00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:59.239 that Cynthia still firmly believes that Angela deserved to die 998 00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:04.840 based on lies and innuendos from a manipulative person. And 999 00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:06.679 she doesn't believe that she deserves to be in prison 1000 00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:08.800 because she swears that she isn't the person who wielded 1001 00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:10.199 the weapon against. 1002 00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:14.079 Angela, and she has no remorse at all. 1003 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:18.440 For her involvement in this. You know, it's interesting to 1004 00:56:19.119 --> 00:56:20.480 you know. And then you know, one of the things 1005 00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:22.840 that we find out, or find out during my research 1006 00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:25.719 and during the detective's work, is that Ritchie was cheating 1007 00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:28.639 on Cynthia with at least three other women. And that's 1008 00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:30.559 something she never wanted to believe either. But when I 1009 00:56:30.639 --> 00:56:33.360 visited her in prison, I told her point blank, I 1010 00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:35.840 saw that he did he was doing that, and he 1011 00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:39.159 manipulated you too, And I hope that there's a day 1012 00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:42.199 that Cynthia does come to realize that she was manipulated 1013 00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.320 and that hopefully she does have remorse someday for participating 1014 00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:46.039 in something. 1015 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:49.519 Like this is very interesting. What she said to Matt 1016 00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:54.639 too regards to empathy or remorse, that she felt no emotion. 1017 00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:58.440 She said, if my grandma died, I wouldn't feel anything either. 1018 00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:03.400 I'm she remark that she had a lack of normal emotion, 1019 00:57:03.639 --> 00:57:04.039 didn't she. 1020 00:57:04.679 --> 00:57:08.679 Yeah, yeah, And I think that comment alone, I think 1021 00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:11.400 was a little more for show for Matt Walters to 1022 00:57:11.639 --> 00:57:14.559 kind of show how, you know, how tough tough she was. 1023 00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:20.079 She definitely has emotions. She definitely has emotions, but they're 1024 00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:25.000 they're just with this particular situation. She just doesn't there. 1025 00:57:25.159 --> 00:57:29.719 There's nothing there that makes her understand the enormity of 1026 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:30.920 what she participated in. 1027 00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:35.599 Yeah. Yeah, I want to thank you so much for 1028 00:57:35.679 --> 00:57:39.840 coming on CJ. Winn and talking about Wilder intentions, love, 1029 00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:43.159 lies and murder in North Dakota. It's been a pleasure 1030 00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:46.559 talking to you about this incredible book. Is there a 1031 00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:48.800 website or a Facebook page that people might take a 1032 00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:51.960 look at this book find out more information. 1033 00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:55.280 Yes, absolutely, you can go to my author page at CJ. 1034 00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:58.840 Winn Author, and you can get the book on black 1035 00:57:58.840 --> 00:58:03.360 Line Publishing dot com or at Amazon dot com. 1036 00:58:03.400 --> 00:58:08.400 That's great. Thank you so much, CJ. Win Wilder Intentions. 1037 00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:10.880 Thank you so much. Dan, I very much appreciate it. 1038 00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:12.920 Thank you. Have a great night. 1039 00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:15.239 Good night, Okay, good to good night.