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No purchase necessary board. We're prohibited by lack 25 00:00:57.479 --> 00:01:02.039 eighteen plus terms and conditions APPLA see web secrety else lot. 26 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:15.439 You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking 27 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:18.560 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 28 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:25.920 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 29 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:29.599 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:34.239 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.280 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 32 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:49.359 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 33 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:52.280 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime 34 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.519 History and the authors that have written about them. In 35 00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:00.640 October two thousand and six, G. T. Harrel received a 36 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:03.159 phone call from a man who identified himself as the 37 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:05.920 great nephew of a high ranking member of the mafia 38 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:09.080 from the forties until his death in the mid nineties. 39 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:12.400 He told him that three generations of his family members 40 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:14.759 had a wealth of stories about the mob that needed 41 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.159 to be told. He said he would like to commission 42 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:19.479 him to write a book detailing the life and times 43 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.439 of his great uncles. He was invited to travel in 44 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:25.759 New York City to meet Ah meet him his great 45 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:29.800 uncle Sonny Della Universida, the last living sibling of Pauli 46 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:34.520 Lefty Delhi Della Universida, as well as a former criminal 47 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:38.120 attorney and his brother. The following week, he was introduced 48 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.599 to every one in Little Italy, New York City. In 49 00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:44.639 videotape seventeen hours of interviews with Sonny, he told compelling 50 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:47.319 stories about many of his life experiences with well known 51 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:51.400 gangsters and associates of his brother Pauli, many of whom 52 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.879 were the who's who of the mafia. After return home 53 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:57.680 from his fascinating of very productive tape sessions, he looked 54 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:00.599 up Sunny's brother's name on the Internet, as well as 55 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.759 sought confirmation on his identity in history books and documents 56 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:07.240 about the mafia. He found nothing, but still believed in 57 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:09.960 his story and those related to him by other relatives. 58 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:13.319 He decided to go to the definitive source about the mafia, 59 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:16.280 the FBI. After a few days of working his way 60 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:18.719 up to chain at command, he was finally directed by 61 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:22.520 a department head to talk to a man who was 62 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:25.639 described as the expert on the history of the mafia. 63 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:28.039 He promised to be a person who would definitely be 64 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.879 able to confirm Pauli's existence and ranking if he did 65 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:35.800 in fact exist. He did confirm that Pauli Lefty was 66 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:38.360 not only known by law enforcement authorities, but that he 67 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:41.759 was known to be the configliere for all five families. 68 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:44.479 He was stunned and knew that he had been offered 69 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.159 a unique opportunity to learn secrets that had never been 70 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:52.080 disclosed before. As the sagon folded, he granted an insight 71 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:55.080 into he was granted. He gained an insight into the 72 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:59.800 origins of the American Mafia, its principal key players, as 73 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:03.039 well those unknown bosses who ran the whole syndicate in 74 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.879 a shroud of secrecy. The book we're featuring this evening 75 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:10.360 is for members only, and it is not just an 76 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:12.879 expose a It is an in depth look into the 77 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:16.600 life and times of known figures and secret bosses who 78 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:19.319 reign supreme during the formative years in the growth of 79 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:22.600 the Mafia worldwide. The book we're featuring this evening for 80 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:26.519 members only, The Story of the Mobs Secret Judge, with 81 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:30.240 my special guest, Jerry Verro. Welcome to the program, and 82 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:34.720 thank you for agreeing to this interview. Jerry Verro, thanks Dan, 83 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:37.959 thanks for having me well, thank you very much. This 84 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:43.439 is going to be a very very interesting interview because 85 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:47.160 of the information in this book. It's a real eye 86 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:49.720 opener and it dispels a lot of the myths that 87 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:53.319 have been built up over the years from all kinds 88 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.120 of sources, not only fictional but also nonfiction sources. As 89 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:01.399 we find out from this book that you've described as 90 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.600 an expose there, certainly it can qualify as that. Now 91 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:09.360 tell us, Jerry, tell us how you were related to 92 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:14.879 these people and why this was an important story that 93 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.519 you decided or people around you decided that it was 94 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.639 important to be told. Now this story. Tell us how 95 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.279 you related and why this is an important story that 96 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:28.279 needed to be told. 97 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:33.439 Well, I'm the great nephew of Paul Lefty Delhi Universita, 98 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:37.199 and in an organized crime family, when you have a 99 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:41.639 powerful figure like that, sometimes you're too close to him 100 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.759 in relation, like a son or a daughter. Sometimes you're 101 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.439 too far away. I was perfect. I was right in 102 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:50.879 the middle because his older sister, Sadie, the matriarch of 103 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:55.399 the family, was my grandmother. Well, growing up, not only 104 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:59.360 personal experiences I had with him and others, but stories 105 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.040 that I owe her. Some I just overheard as a 106 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:04.920 kid that they didn't think I was listening. Others I 107 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:08.079 asked outright. As I got older, and I found out 108 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:11.079 that he was a powerhouse of some sort, but I 109 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.480 didn't know why. I didn't know thee specifics. I didn't 110 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.279 know whether he was a leader of some sort. He 111 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:19.480 dealt with all five families, and I didn't know why, 112 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:22.959 because everything that I knew about organized crime, it didn't 113 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:27.800 make sense. Well, I started interviewing his brothers, realizing I 114 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:30.360 had better get this information because you know, his brothers 115 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:34.759 and sisters started passing away, and they all wanted this 116 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:40.279 story told about their brother for various reasons. And I 117 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:42.600 thought the story needed to be told as well, because 118 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.360 there's so much fiction out there. And I watched these 119 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:51.000 documentaries and I just laughed sometimes, like, you guys don't 120 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:53.399 know what you're talking about. That's not really what happened. 121 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:55.399 So I thought to get it out there. But at 122 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:58.360 the same time, I didn't want to exclose anybody that's 123 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:00.240 still alive. So a lot of the people in the 124 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.920 book that were close to my uncle have already long gone. 125 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:05.720 And I did the best I can research and found 126 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:09.199 out that none of their descendants are involved either. 127 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:14.480 Now you made the phone call to G. T. Harrold, 128 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:19.199 I'm guessing, I mean, I would believe why did you 129 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:21.319 pick G. T. Harrold. What was it about G. T. 130 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.639 Harold that you thought you couldn't get from another author. 131 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:28.199 What was it especially about him that was of interest 132 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:29.439 to you and your family? 133 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:34.879 Well, because he was former he was retired army intelligence. 134 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:38.920 And I knew from you know, again watching documentaries and 135 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:41.399 reading books and movies, that there was a reason why 136 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.160 my great uncle was never mentioned, and I knew of 137 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:46.399 other names that would mentioned. I said, my uncle was 138 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.680 very close to him, so there was a reason, some 139 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:52.480 kind of conspiracy. I thought maybe that he wasn't mention. 140 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.959 So I knew that G. T. Harroll having that position 141 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:58.079 and he would be able to go up the ladder 142 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.639 in the FBI where they were ignored, ing may I 143 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:02.439 never heard of him, never heard of him, and all 144 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:05.199 that type of stuff, And so they would talk to 145 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:08.000 him knowing that he would he would he would get 146 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:10.279 the information, but yet he would keep it in confidence, 147 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:12.360 which he did. So we can't name who told him 148 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:14.720 certain things, but he was able to climb up the ladder, 149 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:16.600 I mean called the FBI to going to look and say, yeah, 150 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:19.720 this guy is all the intelligence retire So that was 151 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.199 the main reason. And then you know he did some 152 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.399 other projects before he sold some scripts to hollywoods. I 153 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:28.519 knew he was a good writer, and he was recommended 154 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.800 by the two lawyers we hired, one and entertainment lawyer 155 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.559 Ken Lake and another criminal lawyer, John Lake, and who 156 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.080 was very helpful in our research, by the way, and 157 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:43.840 actually now he's a circuit court judge in Sarasota, Florida. 158 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.320 Right, Yeah, so that would be a great, great choice 159 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:51.759 because without the FBI confirmation and somebody being trusted and 160 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:55.080 being able to get that information, we still might not 161 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:56.000 have this story, would we. 162 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:00.240 No, Well, I mean GT was was didn't He didn't 163 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.000 want to write the story initially because you know, when 164 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:07.039 he started, he initially he read transcripts of interviews with 165 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:10.639 the last with Sonny, the last living brother. We went 166 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:14.600 to New York City, we hired a stenographer, We did 167 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:17.600 interviews in front of the lawyers because we also had 168 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:19.440 to make sure too that he didn't you know, you 169 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:23.000 can't talk about any murders. There's no statutal limitations, so 170 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:26.320 the lawyers would have for protection as well as verification. Well, 171 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:29.879 GT originally got these transcripts to look through and he 172 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.720 did research all over the internet. He couldn't find he 173 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:36.679 found some stuff on Sonny, some drug charges you know 174 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:39.919 that he had, but nothing on Paulie. So he didn't 175 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:41.720 want to write it because he didn't want to write 176 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:44.799 about what he thought it was a fake character. So 177 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:48.159 he that's where he started working his way up the FBI. 178 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:50.600 And then of course when he came to New York 179 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.240 City when he did his actual interviews. GT wasn't there 180 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:58.039 during the original interviews with the stenography. He came later 181 00:09:58.080 --> 00:09:59.919 and we said, we better get my uncle on cap 182 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:03.559 right because he's not getting any younger. Then talking to 183 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:06.279 some old timers a little lialy, some would go on 184 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:09.759 camera briefly and realize that take me off and whatnot, 185 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.120 and that's when he was really convinced. But he wasn't 186 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:14.480 going to do it until he had some sort of 187 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:17.840 what would have convinced him proof. I mean, it's tough 188 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:20.879 to say proof because he for some reason, the FBI 189 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:23.919 won't release his records. I'm a criminal lawyer has tried 190 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:26.720 and they said it's classified. Why is his records classified? 191 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:29.840 But anyway, GT got enough information to make him feel 192 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:32.799 comfortable and going forward with the book, and he believes 193 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.519 it emphatically, and he's even till this day. He gets 194 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:39.399 more information on his own. He's just that curious about it. 195 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:45.320 Interesting and so in terms of the he had the 196 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.679 interview with your with you and your family, he was 197 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.120 pretty convinced after that, and of course then he got 198 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:55.360 confirmation from the FBI. But he as a journalists, as 199 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:58.159 a guy that knows a good story, he knew that 200 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.240 he was onto something and very con vincing people as well. 201 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.159 I'm sure these people are all you know yourself as well. 202 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:11.600 Now tell us how this all started. Tell us about 203 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:15.440 your your great uncles or your uncle's pardon me, and 204 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:18.759 the great uncles, and tell us about their background in Sicily. 205 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:22.240 How tell us about as much as you know about that, 206 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.240 and was told in the book as well well. 207 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:29.039 Obviously they were both born and what they used to 208 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.399 call at the time the lower East side of Manhattan 209 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.519 on Match Street. Now you know, later on it became 210 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.200 known as Little Italy because of all the immigrants that 211 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:40.519 came from Italy came to that general area and different 212 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:45.240 blocks with different different areas of Italy Sicily and Calabria 213 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.039 and Naples and whatnot. Well, the stories I heard when 214 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:51.240 they first came over is that their father was trying 215 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:55.360 to get away from the gangsters and the fascists and Sicily, 216 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:58.679 and when they arrived in the Lower East Side, they 217 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:02.440 weren't prepared for or what they saw and what they experienced. Well, 218 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.960 Italians were discriminated against in a major way. There were 219 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:09.200 signs in the storefronts that would say Italians need not 220 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:13.120 apply and things of that nature. And my great grandfather, 221 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:17.639 Antonio del universe a Napoulion, Sonny's father, wound up having 222 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:20.200 to work for some of the very people he was 223 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:23.879 trying to get away from in Sicily. Well, they were 224 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.159 very poor. They had to take in a boarder at 225 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.960 one point to live in the house with them. On 226 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:33.320 top of that, the mother died very young. When the 227 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.279 lasts child, Sonny, was born, the mother passed away while 228 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.919 my grandmother Sadie had a drop out of school to 229 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.200 take care of the family. She was fourteen years old 230 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:45.519 her self at the time. She could only do that 231 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.399 for so long. And then what wound up happening is 232 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:51.519 five editor seven children were sent up to an orphanage 233 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:54.879 to be raised. I mean, just think about that. They 234 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.120 take away five ed of your seven children, while my 235 00:12:57.159 --> 00:12:59.919 grandmother Sadi stood behind. She was already old, and I 236 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.039 to take care of herself. And Paulie stood behind because 237 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:06.200 from what I was told, eleven twelve years old, he 238 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:09.919 already had his own rackets going on in the Naghboros. 239 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:15.240 He stood behind. So it's a story to also show people, 240 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:18.720 you know what some of these Italian immigrants, you know, 241 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:21.000 I don't want to say they were pushed into it. 242 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:24.200 They had choices, but there weren't many choices. You either 243 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:26.759 change your name to an americanized name, like a lot 244 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:29.679 of them, did you try to function and you take 245 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:32.559 the job sweep in the streets, which which they would do. 246 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:34.840 They had pride and others just said, you know what, 247 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.080 I'm taking this route of organized crime. And I also 248 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:42.559 believe from hearing stories from my great uncles, organized crime 249 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:46.720 is not created equal completely. It depends. I mean someone 250 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.120 that runs a prostitution ring versus someone that runs a 251 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:54.559 club with gambling and booze and things like that. It 252 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.399 not created the same, you know. I mean, it eventually 253 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:02.399 becomes legal anyway, the prostitution rings, the drugs and the murder, 254 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:05.080 for Hia, that's a different animal. So it's not all 255 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:07.879 created equal. So I learned a lot from them, and 256 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.519 they had some very rough lives. But that being said, 257 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:15.159 it needs added a seven children. Five out of the 258 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.559 seven became legitimate and got legitimate jobs. It was just 259 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.519 Paulie and Sonny that got involved in organized crime. 260 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:30.799 Now you talk about being around to a certain degree 261 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:36.960 and in hearing the stories, what families are we talking about. 262 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:40.159 For those that are not so familiar, some of the 263 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:45.399 names that are very familiar tell us about who your 264 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:49.320 uncles were supposed to be connected with were connected with. 265 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:54.000 Well, one name that is not going to pop out 266 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.320 in people's head is a guy named Jimmy Alto. His 267 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:01.120 real name is Vincente Alta Mare. He was from Sicily 268 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:06.759 and he actually owned four different clubs in the Lower 269 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.639 East Side. He owned one on one sixteen Matt Street 270 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.799 that my uncle eventually took over, one on one sixty 271 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:16.840 nine Hester. He owned another club which was called Alto 272 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:20.440 Knights Social Club, which is recorded in history where all 273 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:22.840 the you know, the who's who with the mafia hung 274 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.440 out in there. And then he owned another grill down 275 00:15:25.480 --> 00:15:29.519 in that area. Another name that most people never heard 276 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:32.799 of yet I heard from his grandson. The guy. His 277 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:36.039 name is Lenny Azarello. He sent me pictures of Jimmy 278 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:40.759 Alto he sent me for some reason. Jimmy aunt was 279 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:43.799 also a high ranking Freemason, which I never knew Italians 280 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.559 were involved in. I have all that documentation, but it 281 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.480 was after the book was published that this guy, Lenny, 282 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.960 by the way, is very highly educated. Okay, he's got 283 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.559 a master's from NYU, he's got a Bachelor of Arts 284 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.679 and all benin. He's an Emmy Award winning music composer. 285 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:01.039 So he isn't just some you know, loser. He's a 286 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:05.080 credible guy. Well, that was one of my uncle's main people. 287 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:07.559 So in a nush and not to get off topic, 288 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:12.320 my uncle PAULI wasn't the only person that maybe you know, 289 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:15.120 these academics out there and historians never heard of. There 290 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.480 were quite a few of them. Well, two of the 291 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:21.519 main people that my uncle's mentors, if you will, was 292 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:26.000 Jimmy Alto, Lucky Luciano and Maya Lansky that I know of, 293 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:30.320 and they taught him different things. Alto and Luciana were 294 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:33.120 full blooded Sicilians, just like my uncle Pauli. They kind 295 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.480 of took him under his wing, and Mayor Lance he 296 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:40.639 schooled him on how to control your temper. And had it. 297 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.360 This is a business. This isn't about just breaking heads 298 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.200 all the time. And I think that's why my uncle 299 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:50.360 became a Consolieri advisor later on as he got older. 300 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:52.960 But those were some of the names that were here 301 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.440 involved in. But he never became a made man. He 302 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.200 didn't have to. He was he was independent. He dealt 303 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.440 with all five families, and his take was to be 304 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:03.320 a made guy. 305 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.759 With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 306 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.880 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 307 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:12.240 the bride and broom? 308 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:12.599 Sorry? 309 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:13.880 Sorry, we're here. 310 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.920 We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost 311 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:16.480 track of time. 312 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:20.039 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 313 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:21.759 quicker than he gets registered. 314 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:23.920 In luck case, I pronounce you lucky. 315 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:27.680 Thanks for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Dagley bonuses 316 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.519 are waiting. No purchase necessary board We're prohibited by Locke 317 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:33.559 Team plus terms and conditions of flag see website for details. 318 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.039 It means that you're owned by somebody. You're owned by 319 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:38.640 one of the families, and you got a kick up 320 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.759 to then. While he had enough power from Luciano and 321 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.240 Alto and then the job that he later had as 322 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.920 the liaison between Sicily and the United States where he 323 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:50.920 didn't have to but those are some of the names 324 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:53.640 that but he dealt with all five families. So the 325 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.839 Carlo Gambino, he was very close with Carlo because again 326 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.680 another fellow full blooded Socilian. He was close with Joe. 327 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.240 He was close to Tommy Lukesey, very close to Vito Genovic, 328 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:07.279 even though Vito was from Naples. So he was close 329 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:09.640 with all the who's who, all the big names that 330 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:14.000 people here. But his mentors were Jimmy Alto, Lucky Luciano 331 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:14.960 and Maya Lanski. 332 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.440 Right, yeah, well all the other big names as well. 333 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.880 Now you say they ran some they ranked clubs. Was 334 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:26.680 are they the kind of guys that at least you 335 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:31.680 knew early on or at least the I guess the 336 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:35.640 public facade that these people were businessmen running clubs. Is 337 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:37.720 that kind of the racket that they had. 338 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.640 Well, I mean they provided a service that everybody wanted. 339 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:46.160 People wanted to gamble, people wanted to drink, and that's 340 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:48.920 what they provided. But my uncle took over the club 341 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:54.200 on one sixteen Mott Street, and I know of police, 342 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:59.960 politicians and even famous people in the movie industry back then, 343 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.279 and they would go in his club and Barry Opuso 344 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:04.000 was one of them, and they just wanted a table, 345 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.519 and they wanted to gamble, and they wanted to you know, 346 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.559 hang out, smoke cigars, and you know, it was a 347 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:13.160 business to these guys. The only difference was they didn't 348 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:15.400 have a license to do it. So, yeah, it was illegal, 349 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.319 but you know there wasn't It wasn't as bad as 350 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:21.319 maybe as it's poor trade. Yeah. 351 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:29.319 Yeah, Now, tell us about what was the the public 352 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:33.200 or at least in terms of the police and most 353 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.039 people when you went through the records, was what were 354 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:38.599 your uncles known for? What were the rackets that they 355 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.400 were known for in terms of from the police point 356 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:41.759 of view. 357 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:47.079 Well, Sonny, the youngest brother, he was well known as 358 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:50.680 a major drug dealer. That's what he did. He got 359 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:55.839 caught with other who's who for organized crime, h trafficking heroin. 360 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:58.240 That's what he was. He was trafficking and dealing heroin 361 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.240 and he was dealing with you know some of the uh, 362 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.759 the guys up in North They went and made American 363 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:09.599 Gangster the movie out of that I forgot. Nicky Barnes 364 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.799 is one of them, but he dealt with them. He 365 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.400 was he was dealing, but he was also kind of 366 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:17.880 a gopher for my uncle Paulie. My uncle also had 367 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:20.279 clubs all over the city where he would he was 368 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.079 the shylock. He would lend the money for the for 369 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.599 the guys that wanted to gamble. So my uncle Sonny 370 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:27.720 would go back and forth, he would deliver the money, 371 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:29.279 he would pick it if he would pick it up. 372 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.519 Because my uncle's you know, kind of laid low. What 373 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.000 they knew about my uncle but wouldn't reveal. The records 374 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.920 is that he traveled back and forth to Sicily and 375 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.599 he would use different names going back and forth. Now, 376 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:46.680 how he got that position was in the forties, Lucky 377 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:50.920 Luciano had three consolieres, which was common back then. It 378 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:55.039 was Fido Jennovese, Tony Bender and of course my uncle 379 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.039 paul Lefty well when he was gonna when he was 380 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:01.880 getting deported. Uh, there was my uncle Paulie was actually 381 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:04.480 in line to take over that family. He didn't want 382 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:06.559 to be bothered with it because of what happened to 383 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:11.799 the prior bosses Marenzano, Maseria, then Luciano getting deported, so 384 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:15.480 Luciano took him under his wing. They gave the family 385 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.160 to Vito Genovese, which my uncle thought was a smart 386 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:20.200 move because Vita was kind of a wild man figure 387 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:23.480 that you take the family, god, you take the limelight me. 388 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:27.160 While Vito was uh, you know, kind of in debt 389 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:29.119 to him for letting him do that. Because Pauli was 390 00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:31.240 a full blooded Sicilian, he was in line to take 391 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:35.839 over after Luciano or Vito was from Naples. Well, Pauli 392 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:40.240 became what they later referred to as ill Messagero. He 393 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:42.839 would go back and forth to Sicily. Initially he would 394 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.640 go to Sicily and he would take messages from Luciano 395 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:52.240 as well as money, okay, because he was because Luciano 396 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:54.920 still had an interest in all five families. Then he 397 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.279 started to get to know to Sicilian bosses after Luciano 398 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:00.559 passed away. So basically he would go over there. He 399 00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.119 would get money, typically money that they used. It was. 400 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.279 It was laundering, the narcotics money because Sicilians were big 401 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.039