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<v Speaker 1>Okay, we're live. Hi, this is William Ramsey. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>William Ramsey Investigates On today's show. I have a very

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<v Speaker 1>special guest. Her name is Kimberly k Hwong. Her last

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<v Speaker 1>name is spelled hoa Ng, and she just published a

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<v Speaker 1>book September sixth, twenty twenty two. Title of the book

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<v Speaker 1>is Spiderweb Capitalism, How global elites exploit frontier markets. And

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<v Speaker 1>we were talking kind of in the pre show I

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<v Speaker 1>just had Hal Weizman on last month. We talked about

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<v Speaker 1>all the kind of subterranean, maybe sketchy things involved in

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<v Speaker 1>Delawar's kind of corporate environment. But I think this book

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<v Speaker 1>fits in is a great kind of follow on to

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<v Speaker 1>that discussion because it's about some dealings that maybe not

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<v Speaker 1>as well known to the public. But this is not

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<v Speaker 1>Kimberly's first book. She also published back in twenty fourteen

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<v Speaker 1>a book titled Human Trafficking Reconsidered, Rethinking the Problem, Envisioning

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<v Speaker 1>New Solutions, and also in twenty fifteen, dealing in Desire

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<v Speaker 1>Asian Ascended Western Decline and the Hidden Currencies of Global

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<v Speaker 1>Sex Work. And Kimberly Wang is a She is an

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<v Speaker 1>Associate professor of sociology at the College of the University

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<v Speaker 1>of Chicago. She's the author of the books that I

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<v Speaker 1>just mentioned. She's also had articles that have appeared in

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<v Speaker 1>American Sociological Review, Social Problems, Gender and Society Contexts, the

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<v Speaker 1>Journal of Contemporary Ethnography and Sexualities, as well as articles

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<v Speaker 1>for the BBC. And her homepage or her website is

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<v Speaker 1>her full name, So it's Kimberlykwong dot com and I'll

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<v Speaker 1>put that in the show notes, as long as their

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<v Speaker 1>Twitter handle. So if you have any questions about the

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<v Speaker 1>book or any follow on questions, you can reach out

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<v Speaker 1>to it Kimberly Kwong. But again, the book we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about today, just published September sixth, twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 1>is Spiderweb Capitalism, How Global Elites exploit frontier market. So,

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<v Speaker 1>Kimberly Kwong, welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>So for people who may not have heard your name

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<v Speaker 1>or your earlier work, can can you talk about your

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<v Speaker 1>background and your academic career and what led you to

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<v Speaker 1>write and put together this book Spider Web Capitalism.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, so, I'm a sociologist by training. I received my

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<v Speaker 2>PhD in twenty eleven from UC Berkeley Sociology Program. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I think the story of spider web capitalism

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<v Speaker 2>emerged in somewhat of an organic way from my first

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<v Speaker 2>book monograph book, Dealing in Desire. The first book, Dealing

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<v Speaker 2>in Desire is a book about the sex industry in Vietnam,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a story about how the sex industry facilitates

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<v Speaker 2>foreign direct investment into the country, particularly FDI coming in

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<v Speaker 2>from other more developed nations in East and Southeast Asia,

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<v Speaker 2>so South Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore, China, Taiwan, Malaysia, et cetera,

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<v Speaker 2>et cetera. And it was a time of the two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand in anate financial crisis, and the story is really

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<v Speaker 2>about how foreign investment was coming primarily from East and

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<v Speaker 2>Southeast as Asian nations with a very Asian style of

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<v Speaker 2>deal brokering that was on the basis of trust and

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<v Speaker 2>a handshake, and in a context where you know, legal

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<v Speaker 2>contracts were not as didn't have much teeth to them,

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<v Speaker 2>or where the legal structure wasn't you know, very sophisticated,

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<v Speaker 2>and whether it's widespread corruption and so that book was

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<v Speaker 2>published in twenty fifteen, and there were some questions that

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<v Speaker 2>were unanswered in that book because I was doing an ethnography.

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<v Speaker 2>I was an ethnography for doing an ethnography inside of

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<v Speaker 2>hostess bars, and so I was really curious, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what happens outside of hostess bars, and more curious how

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Western businessmen who are constrained by the Foreign

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<v Speaker 2>Corrupt Practices Act do business differently in this context than businessmen,

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<v Speaker 2>say from South Korea or China, who are not constrained

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<v Speaker 2>by the same global laws around corruption. So, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it starts with a very simple story. I go to

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<v Speaker 2>Vietnam and Me and Mars the two sites that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>really interested in studying, Me and Mar being an even

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<v Speaker 2>newer frontier that people were sort of chasing after at

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<v Speaker 2>the time when Angsan Suki was elected, you know, into

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<v Speaker 2>office at that time. And so I kind of go

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<v Speaker 2>there and I'm doing some interviews and I realized that, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>my goodness, you know, all of these investments are managed offshore,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're managed through offshore vehicles that are set up

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<v Speaker 2>in Hong Kong and Singapore, and so I start to

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<v Speaker 2>ask for the contact information of lawyers, company secretaries, accountants, bankers,

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<v Speaker 2>all of the people that are managing these investment vehicles offshore,

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<v Speaker 2>and I go to Hong Kong and Singapore and carry

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<v Speaker 2>out some of the inner us and I realized that

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<v Speaker 2>those are just subsidiaries of other entities based in the

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<v Speaker 2>British Virgin Islands, say Shells, Panama, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I kind of stumble into the story of

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<v Speaker 2>spider web capitalism, which is a story of offshoring, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's a story of how these investments are They never

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<v Speaker 2>go direct from from nation A to Nation B, but

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<v Speaker 2>instead are entangled in this three D web capital web,

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<v Speaker 2>where there are a ton of different financial professionals who

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<v Speaker 2>helped to move money around the world through these different

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<v Speaker 2>offshore vehicles.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, and you break that down into two different kind

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<v Speaker 1>of there's really the chairman and the other ones, the

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<v Speaker 1>h n M s and the U h n wis.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you explain those acronyms?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? So, you know, when I started to do this

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<v Speaker 2>book as a sociologist, there was a time when sociologists

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<v Speaker 2>were really interested and I think economists too, in the

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<v Speaker 2>study of elites, and when in the study of elites,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is you know, post two thousand and eight,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone was looking at the one percenters of the you

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<v Speaker 2>know one percent versus ninety nine percent. And what I

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<v Speaker 2>realized is that actually many of the people that I

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<v Speaker 2>study are part of the one percent, but we don't differentiate,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's a big difference between the you know one

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<v Speaker 2>percent and the point one percent, for example. And so

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<v Speaker 2>the way that I sort of theorized spider web capitalism

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<v Speaker 2>is that it's these webs are social webs, and so

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<v Speaker 2>there I kind of take an analogy of social spiders.

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<v Speaker 2>They build out these massive webs together in community. But

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<v Speaker 2>what I do is I differentiate between what I call

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<v Speaker 2>big spiders and smaller spiders. So the big spiders are

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<v Speaker 2>ultra high net worth individuals, and the smaller spiders are

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<v Speaker 2>the high net worth individuals who sort of manage the

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<v Speaker 2>investments or manage the money on behalf of the ultra

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<v Speaker 2>high net worth individuals. So high net worth individuals are

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<v Speaker 2>basically highly compensated financial professionals who kind of carry out

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<v Speaker 2>the footwork and the investments on behalf of the ultra

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<v Speaker 2>high networth individuals who are often invisible in these complex webs.

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<v Speaker 2>And the high net worth individuals are the people who

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<v Speaker 2>are often the fall people and in the face of

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<v Speaker 2>the deal when something goes wrong, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So you have this kind of breaking up. So the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of lowered people are like the manager's fund managers, accountants, lawyers, bankers,

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<v Speaker 1>and they actually have fixers too, So there's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>this people facilitating the investment into these frontier markets.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, And you kind of you had concerns about

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<v Speaker 1>the foreign corrupt while you were investigating all this material

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<v Speaker 1>to spiderweb capitalism. You had some bird concerns about the

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<v Speaker 1>FCPA too, right, you had to get that trub Can

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<v Speaker 1>you talk a little bit about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So as an American researcher, I learned that I

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<v Speaker 2>could not so as and particularly as an ethnographer, I

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<v Speaker 2>think I really love how Whitesman's book who you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>What's the matter with Delaware? And I think I just

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<v Speaker 2>will say, you know, how Whitesman's method of research is

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<v Speaker 2>very different from mine, and that he's looking at court cases,

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<v Speaker 2>newspaper articles, you know, interviewing people and putting the pieces

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<v Speaker 2>of the puzzle together. Most of what I do is

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<v Speaker 2>interviewing people in ethnography, which is following people around to

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<v Speaker 2>try to see them in action, and most ethnography as

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<v Speaker 2>a method has been used to study down. It's used

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<v Speaker 2>to study you know, sex workers, like I did for

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<v Speaker 2>my first book, gang Members, like many people do coming

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<v Speaker 2>out of the Chicago School of Sociology, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's not really been used very much to study elites

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<v Speaker 2>or to study up as we call it. But what

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<v Speaker 2>I ran into was that per the Foreign Crept Practices Act,

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<v Speaker 2>I could not witness any you know, people carrying out

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<v Speaker 2>bribes or any of these transactions in person. I couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>really look at the multiple books that people had for

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<v Speaker 2>their accounting, because that technically would make me an accessory

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<v Speaker 2>of criminal activity. And so the way that I sort

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<v Speaker 2>of got around that was that I would follow people

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<v Speaker 2>and travel with people, but I wouldn't necessarily sit in

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<v Speaker 2>with them on the meetings, but I would I would

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<v Speaker 2>have breakfast and drinks with you know, breakfast beforehand, coffee afterwards,

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<v Speaker 2>drinks afterwards, and try to get them to fill me

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<v Speaker 2>in on what was happening inside. And oftentimes, when you

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<v Speaker 2>travel with people, you spend a lot of time with people,

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<v Speaker 2>you build trust, and they let their guard down and

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<v Speaker 2>they are much more open to kind of what's happening

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<v Speaker 2>with these transactions. What are some of the complicated things

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<v Speaker 2>going on, and so I was you know, if I

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<v Speaker 2>was not a US researcher, I don't think I would

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<v Speaker 2>be constrained in the same ways as US and VEST were.

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<v Speaker 2>But it definitely, you know, created barriers to the research

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<v Speaker 2>that I think I would have been able to go

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<v Speaker 2>deeper and see things much more firsthand if if I

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't similarly constrained by the SCPA. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So, but that those are serious concerns because a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of that stuff you talk about that in your book,

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<v Speaker 1>about the corruption or these relationships between people that may

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<v Speaker 1>not be as firmly memorialized in a contract. But can

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<v Speaker 1>you kind of also talk about all the like you

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<v Speaker 1>were there for eighteen months and these two things, you

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<v Speaker 1>traveled freely. Can you talk about the people you met

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<v Speaker 1>and how you accruede all that ethnographic information.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So most of the people that I met, I

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<v Speaker 2>started out, you know, primarily interviewing fund managers and the

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<v Speaker 2>people who work in their offices, so lawyers, accountants, come,

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<v Speaker 2>any secretaries, the people who work in with them both

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<v Speaker 2>in their offices but also who they contract out to

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<v Speaker 2>do some of this work. And then I, through them

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<v Speaker 2>started to meet the people who they were courting, so

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<v Speaker 2>and those tended to be more of the ultra high

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<v Speaker 2>network individuals whose money is really all around the world,

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<v Speaker 2>and who they were looking to attract investment into these

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<v Speaker 2>new frontiers. And I will say that it's a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of you know, going at it at two ends,

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<v Speaker 2>because at this time, you know, investments in the US

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<v Speaker 2>and in this context were often seen as safe where

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<v Speaker 2>you can you know, generally see returns of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>five to seven percent, and the return on investment that

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<v Speaker 2>you're seeing in these new frontiers was so high. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>so many people who were really interested in emerging markets,

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<v Speaker 2>frontier markets, and with the exposure to China, people were

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<v Speaker 2>looking for newer markets like Vietnam, and those that were

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<v Speaker 2>in Vietnam were looking for even newer frontiers going to

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<v Speaker 2>Me and Min and so there was sort of this

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<v Speaker 2>matchmaking process of you know, folks from all around the

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<v Speaker 2>world looking to you know, get exposure to or get

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<v Speaker 2>access to these new frontiers. While at the same time

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<v Speaker 2>you have fund managers on the ground that are looking

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<v Speaker 2>to raise capital for investment projects in these frontiers. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I started by interviewing, you know, just anyone who

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<v Speaker 2>was willing to talk to me about their role in

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<v Speaker 2>facilitating the movement of capital. I was really interested in

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<v Speaker 2>how people shape markets, particularly markets that are new, that

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<v Speaker 2>have weak legal institutions, where corruption is generally widespread, where

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<v Speaker 2>relationships matter a lot, and so I was really interested

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<v Speaker 2>in sort of how people brokeer deals. And what I

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<v Speaker 2>came to understand is that, you know, people have a

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<v Speaker 2>whole network of people working on various deals for them,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was so I was really interested in, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>what do each of the different people do the lawyers,

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<v Speaker 2>the company secretaries, the fund managers, what role do they

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<v Speaker 2>play in helping to facilitate the movement of capital into

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<v Speaker 2>these markets, and how do they sort of facilitate the

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<v Speaker 2>movement of capital out or profits out. Which what I

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<v Speaker 2>learned is that oftentimes the investment is made offshore and

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<v Speaker 2>money only comes in on shore to cover the cost

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<v Speaker 2>of operations. But a lot of the deals are set up,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, completely offshore in Singapore, Hong Kong, and then

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<v Speaker 2>in the British Virgin Islands, Panama, say Shells, so forth.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So there's this whole process. You have a section

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<v Speaker 1>in the introductory chapters about how this offshore investment may

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<v Speaker 1>connects to onshore vehicles. There's this whole process roadshows. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you talk about how that works?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so, I mean most of the processes. I would

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<v Speaker 2>say that one thing I will say is that when

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<v Speaker 2>people talk about offshore and I think, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>you hear it through how Whitzman's lens, there is kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a dirty you know, we often think of secrecy,

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<v Speaker 2>corruption and all of that, and and what I want

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<v Speaker 2>to be clear about is that, yes, that is all

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<v Speaker 2>true and there. But at the same time, when you're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about less developed economies where there's not a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of faith in the state or in the banking or

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<v Speaker 2>financial institutions, offshore is also a way to protect much

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<v Speaker 2>of these you know, to protect these investments. And so

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<v Speaker 2>the state is you know, I think many in many

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<v Speaker 2>ways fully aware that they're the only way that they

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<v Speaker 2>can attract four and capital is by allowing for these

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<v Speaker 2>structures to be set up offshore. So it's so part

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<v Speaker 2>of what spiderweb capitalism is is it's really theorizing how

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<v Speaker 2>investors play in the gray, and what playing in the

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<v Speaker 2>gray means is how they sort of play in the

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<v Speaker 2>space between what is legal or illegal liicit, illicit, corrupt,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, clean, And the argument is that we kind

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<v Speaker 2>of think of these as binaries, when in fact they

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<v Speaker 2>are They occur along a continuum, and people in these

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<v Speaker 2>kind of markets are often playing in the gray. However,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, when I talk about these structures, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>just it's not the it's it's often not the ultra

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<v Speaker 2>high net worth individuals who are kind of doing this

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<v Speaker 2>dirty work. They have they sort of you know, have

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<v Speaker 2>people or employ people who carry out this footwork on

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<v Speaker 2>their behalf. And those are highly compensated financial professionals who

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<v Speaker 2>carry out these investments, you know, oversee these investments and

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<v Speaker 2>are often the face of the face of the deals.

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<v Speaker 2>But ironically, they take home a very small percent of

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<v Speaker 2>the profit margins on the deals while also assuming a

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<v Speaker 2>great deal of risk. And the reason why they're willing

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<v Speaker 2>to do that is because they still are part of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the top ninety percent of you know, wealth income,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, worldwide, and so it's worth taking the risk

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<v Speaker 2>for them because I think the dream or the goal

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<v Speaker 2>is ultimately ultimately to become or to grow to become

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<v Speaker 2>ultra high networth individuals, and that is something that they

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<v Speaker 2>imagine as more possible in new frontier markets where the

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<v Speaker 2>risk is higher, but also the return on investment is

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<v Speaker 2>also higher when things go well.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And you mentioned c Right Mills and the power

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<v Speaker 1>Lead and how does his kind of insights you reference

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<v Speaker 1>him as a very important influence upon you. How does

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<v Speaker 1>he play into your inquiry into spiderworth capitalism.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was very inspired by Sea Right Mills because

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<v Speaker 2>I would say that, you know, c Right Mills really

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<v Speaker 2>is one of the first sort of leading sociologists who

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<v Speaker 2>thinks about the relationship between political and economic elites and

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<v Speaker 2>the ways in which political and economic elites work together,

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<v Speaker 2>uh in order to you know, they sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>work in concert with each other. And and I think

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, in the US, in the US side,

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<v Speaker 2>we often think of political elites as the political sphere

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<v Speaker 2>as separate from the economic sphere. Where the political sphere

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<v Speaker 2>is regulating the economic sphere. There's these systems of checks

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<v Speaker 2>and balances, and in less developed economies it's the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>political elites who enable economic elites to sort of make

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<v Speaker 2>their money but via you know, inside access to deals,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly you know, state owned enterprise, you know, ones that

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<v Speaker 2>are governed by state owned enterprises. Et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>And so, you know, what I really liked about going

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<v Speaker 2>back to see Mills really was the ways in which

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<v Speaker 2>he talks about how political elites essentially provide the legal

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<v Speaker 2>runway for economic elites to lift off of. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>sort of and this is where playing in the gray

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<v Speaker 2>is really important. It's just sort of how people are

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<v Speaker 2>able to legally, you know, you know, make their money

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<v Speaker 2>in this very legal you know, in a in a

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<v Speaker 2>very legal fashion, with the help of political elits and

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<v Speaker 2>so and in French, in new frontier markets. That's really

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<v Speaker 2>it's not just the legal structure, you know, when it's legal.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not just that you know, there's a sort of

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<v Speaker 2>legal runway to take off on. But it's also an

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<v Speaker 2>informal context. It's the spaces where there may be laws

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<v Speaker 2>in place, but those laws are not necessarily enforced or

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<v Speaker 2>heavily regulated.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So there's a lot of other kind of shady things.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is it's an academic book, but you have

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of first person stories of these individuals. You've used,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, pseudonyms, but these players have shared their systems

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<v Speaker 1>and you talk about Fritz and Ross in the beginning

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<v Speaker 1>you talk about some of these other Can you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about some of the interesting characters you met and how

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<v Speaker 1>they play into this whole frontier market capitalism.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that As a sociologist, I'm just very

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<v Speaker 2>interested in people and who are the people behind these

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<v Speaker 2>deals and how do they make money move? And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Fritz and Ross are people that I introduce in chapter

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<v Speaker 2>one of the book, and I think they're very interesting

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<v Speaker 2>people because Fritz is a you know, forty year old,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, US citizen who's been who has spent a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of time in Asia, you know, and he travels

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<v Speaker 2>back and forth between Seattle, Hong Kong, Vietnam and me

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<v Speaker 2>and Bar and is you know, based in Hong Kong

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<v Speaker 2>but overseas. Basically the firms investments in Vietnam and me

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<v Speaker 2>and Bar and you know, he makes a base salary

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<v Speaker 2>of around three hundred thousand dollars a year and in

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<v Speaker 2>addition a bonus and so he is what I would call,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, high net worth individual. And when I met Fritz,

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, oh, you know, he's the he's the guy.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's the fund. You know, he's managing this big fund.

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<v Speaker 2>And he said to me, oh no, no, actually Ross

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<v Speaker 2>is the it's all it's all Ross's money, and most

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<v Speaker 2>of it is Ross's money. And he explains to me

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<v Speaker 2>that the fund in total has two hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>million dollars. You know, fifty million comes from the small

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<v Speaker 2>guys like like Fritz. But Ross is the one who

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<v Speaker 2>brought two hundred million dollars to the fund, and so

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<v Speaker 2>he's really managing in the way he sees it. He's

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<v Speaker 2>really managing Ross's money and making decisions about where to

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<v Speaker 2>invest in Vietnam and me and Maar that's sort of

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<v Speaker 2>his mandate. But Ross's money is invested, you know, pretty

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<v Speaker 2>much all over the world. You know, they have investment

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<v Speaker 2>mandates for Russia, Africa, Ukraine, Southeast Asia, and you know

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<v Speaker 2>the Southeast Asia fund is the one that Fritz manages.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think this is really a story about

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<v Speaker 2>how all of these investments and people are are connected

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<v Speaker 2>to one another where you know, we and you can

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<v Speaker 2>see through this one example a simplified example of this

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<v Speaker 2>type of three D web, right, and.

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<v Speaker 1>So you have like this this groupted the high network,

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<v Speaker 1>the lower level of people doing it. But there's also

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<v Speaker 1>it has that frontier wild west connection to it because

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned some terms I didn't expect to see in

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<v Speaker 1>your like resears fixers, Can you kind of talk about

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<v Speaker 1>how some of these transactions are facilitated that are not

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<v Speaker 1>in conformance with Western you know, legal standards.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's really interesting that you asked me that

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<v Speaker 2>because prior at the time that I was doing this research,

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<v Speaker 2>I came on the fixers. And so fixers are in

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<v Speaker 2>this context are people who are primarily in charge of

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<v Speaker 2>handling the on behalf of investors, and fixers you know

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<v Speaker 2>oftentimes also handle these bribes on behalf of the high

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<v Speaker 2>net worth individuals, not just the ultra high net worth individuals.

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<v Speaker 2>And so these are the people who you know, bribe

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<v Speaker 2>judges and in lawsuits. They're the people who know who

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<v Speaker 2>have basically relationships to the right key officials and can

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<v Speaker 2>can anticipate problems, can ensure you know, licensing and permits

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<v Speaker 2>will go through. So there are fixers at all different levels,

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<v Speaker 2>I would say, right and different There's you know, dixters

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<v Speaker 2>who do small things and fixers who do very big

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<v Speaker 2>things depending on the investment and size of deal. And

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<v Speaker 2>there's all different types that I go through in the

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<v Speaker 2>book later on in the book. And I think what's

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting is that in this market, and people would

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<v Speaker 2>say this about China too, which is that anytime a

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<v Speaker 2>foreign investor wants to go into these markets, they have

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<v Speaker 2>to have a local partner. And the reason why a

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<v Speaker 2>local partner is important, not just or communication or cultural reasons,

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<v Speaker 2>is because the local partner usually has a relationship with

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<v Speaker 2>the with you know, state officials in order to get

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<v Speaker 2>things done. And it's not really actually the local partner

385
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<v Speaker 2>that has those relationships. It's a local partner who has

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<v Speaker 2>a fixer. And so there's all of these different degrees

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<v Speaker 2>of separation that you know, keeps the ultra high and

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<v Speaker 2>high net worth individuals sort of it creates these legal

389
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<v Speaker 2>firewalls because they're not carrying they're not the ones that

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00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:30.519
<v Speaker 2>are carrying out the bribes. It's the fixer that's doing it.

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<v Speaker 2>And what I think is so interesting about the way

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<v Speaker 2>that you've framed the question is that under the Trump administration,

393
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<v Speaker 2>we start to see the word fixer all over the

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<v Speaker 2>media and all over the news. Right. We see that

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<v Speaker 2>with Michael Cohen, it was just the word fixer. We

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00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.839
<v Speaker 2>see fixers with Russia, Ukraine and the you know, relationships

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<v Speaker 2>under the Trump administration and Epstein, I mean, I think

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<v Speaker 2>of Epstein as a fixer in the in the US

399
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<v Speaker 2>context in some ways, right, or a type of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there are many different types of fixers. And so what

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00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.079
<v Speaker 2>I think, what I really like about how Weizman's book

402
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:06.559
<v Speaker 2>What's the Matter with Delaware, is that he really takes

403
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<v Speaker 2>this back to the US, and so I allude to

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<v Speaker 2>it at the end of my book where I say,

405
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<v Speaker 2>you know, we often think of this as something that

406
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<v Speaker 2>happens over there in third world economies, but Spiderweb Capitalism

407
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<v Speaker 2>is a story about how these new frontier markets are

408
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<v Speaker 2>actually interconnected into a web that's connected to very developed

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00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:29.960
<v Speaker 2>economies in the US. And actually fixers are not is

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<v Speaker 2>not something that exists just somewhere over there in some

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00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:36.039
<v Speaker 2>far away place like Vietnam or me and maar the

412
00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.480
<v Speaker 2>there there. They exist here in the United States, and

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00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:42.319
<v Speaker 2>in fact, the their role in many ways or the

414
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:47.519
<v Speaker 2>they're modeled after fixers in more developed economies. And many

415
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:51.160
<v Speaker 2>of these deals that are sort of you know, frontier

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<v Speaker 2>market deals of front running the legal system and front

417
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:59.039
<v Speaker 2>running the law are also modeled after, you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>happened in the US before regulations were put in place,

419
00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:05.640
<v Speaker 2>and so it's almost like they're they're trying to front

420
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.640
<v Speaker 2>run regulation the regulators. There be two steps ahead of

421
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.920
<v Speaker 2>the regulators by moving to new emerging markets or new

422
00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:15.720
<v Speaker 2>frontiers where those laws are not yet put in place.

423
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Interesting, and that's why the FCPA was put in place.

424
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:23.160
<v Speaker 1>And so then you just go to these newer markets,

425
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:25.319
<v Speaker 1>Me and Mark and these the Can you talk about

426
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:29.240
<v Speaker 1>the rapid change that's happened in at least those two

427
00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:32.079
<v Speaker 1>markets in South East Asia Vietnam and me Inwa.

428
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:36.039
<v Speaker 2>I think that Vietnam. So at the time that I

429
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:39.079
<v Speaker 2>was doing the research, everyone thought that Me and Mar

430
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:43.240
<v Speaker 2>was going to leap frog Vietnam in terms of foreign investment,

431
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:46.400
<v Speaker 2>primarily because Me and Mar is an English speaking country.

432
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:52.119
<v Speaker 2>It is, you know, set up with the legal infrastructure

433
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.519
<v Speaker 2>that's very similar to you know, common law, British common law,

434
00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:59.480
<v Speaker 2>whereas you know, Vietnam was much more complicated. You have

435
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:02.960
<v Speaker 2>it's a socialist market transitioning to a capitalist market, you know,

436
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:07.759
<v Speaker 2>a capitalist market based economy, but still under a socialist

437
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:10.160
<v Speaker 2>you know government. And so they just there was this

438
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:13.400
<v Speaker 2>sense at the time, I think that after the coup,

439
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:16.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of stuff in me andmar has you know, stopped,

440
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:20.319
<v Speaker 2>slowed down or has come to a halt, and everybody's waiting, watching,

441
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:24.160
<v Speaker 2>waiting to see. But Vietnam is an incredible story. It's

442
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:28.960
<v Speaker 2>an incredibly dynamic economy. Uh, it's grown, you know, tremendously,

443
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:31.119
<v Speaker 2>even from the time of my first book to my

444
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:35.440
<v Speaker 2>second book. The the economy is incredibly dynamic. It's grown

445
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:40.279
<v Speaker 2>so rapidly. You now have you know, billionaires in Vietnam

446
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.960
<v Speaker 2>that didn't exist there in years prior. So this idea

447
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:48.200
<v Speaker 2>of smaller spiders, you know, you know, having a vision

448
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:50.759
<v Speaker 2>of growing to becoming ultra high net worth individuals, I

449
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:54.240
<v Speaker 2>think you're there already. You're you've seen that there now.

450
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.079
<v Speaker 2>And there are ultra high net worth individuals in Vietnam

451
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.799
<v Speaker 2>now who are you know have invested all over the

452
00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:05.559
<v Speaker 2>world too, And so I think it's it's you know,

453
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:07.759
<v Speaker 2>it's it's a it's a market, and it's an economy

454
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.359
<v Speaker 2>that more people, especially with China closing up and everything

455
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.559
<v Speaker 2>that's happening in Hong Kong, have a greater have seemed

456
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:17.640
<v Speaker 2>to have to me a much greater appetite for Vietnam.

457
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.400
<v Speaker 1>Interesting, and what what's your kind of take on the

458
00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:27.720
<v Speaker 1>impact of this external capital on these frontier markets. As

459
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:31.440
<v Speaker 1>far as sociologically or ethnographically. Do you have a positive

460
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:34.440
<v Speaker 1>multivari view, positive, negative? What are your thoughts?

461
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.440
<v Speaker 2>I think I have a very you know, multi layered view,

462
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:40.200
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's it's sort of I think of

463
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:43.480
<v Speaker 2>it as a kaleidoscope. And when you shift this kaleidoscope

464
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:45.960
<v Speaker 2>and look at it through various lens you have different views.

465
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:47.880
<v Speaker 2>So I think, you know, when I look at it

466
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:52.799
<v Speaker 2>through a lens of you know, post war economy, you know,

467
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.039
<v Speaker 2>following the Vietnam War, it's almost sort of like you

468
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.200
<v Speaker 2>could see this as the rise and revenge of you know,

469
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:01.920
<v Speaker 2>of Vietnam, and not just in terms of the you know,

470
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.519
<v Speaker 2>geopolitical way, but in terms of you know, it's economic rise.

471
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:10.039
<v Speaker 2>I think that, you know, as a Vietnamese American who

472
00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:14.000
<v Speaker 2>comes from a refugee family, I remember, you know, returning

473
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.920
<v Speaker 2>to Vietnam in the nineties when it was you know,

474
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:21.519
<v Speaker 2>primarily you know thatched huts, and you know, you could

475
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:24.119
<v Speaker 2>see the ways in which the economy was devastated by

476
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.799
<v Speaker 2>the war. And if you go to Bangkok, you just think, wow,

477
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Bangkok was twenty years ahead of Ho Chi Min city,

478
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know, this is what happens when a country

479
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.119
<v Speaker 2>goes through a war and within a very short time.

480
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.079
<v Speaker 2>I would say that Vietnam and ho Chiman City in

481
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:43.240
<v Speaker 2>particular is just you know bypassed. You know, Jakarta and Indonesia,

482
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:48.279
<v Speaker 2>Bangkok and Thailand, and everyone is just it's it's it's rapid.

483
00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:51.960
<v Speaker 2>And I think that I think most people look at

484
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.920
<v Speaker 2>that dynamism and that rapid growth in positive ways. Of course,

485
00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:59.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, the sociologist in me says, look, there's winners

486
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.839
<v Speaker 2>and losers in a course. The people that are win

487
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:02.880
<v Speaker 2>are winning big in Vietnam, and then there are people

488
00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:07.119
<v Speaker 2>that get left behind, you know, land dispossession and all

489
00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:10.079
<v Speaker 2>of that. You know. For my first book, I definitely

490
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.559
<v Speaker 2>studied down and I would have I think I would

491
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.240
<v Speaker 2>have a a better picture of the unintended consequences of

492
00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:18.960
<v Speaker 2>these capital flows. But I really have for this for

493
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:22.759
<v Speaker 2>Spiderweb Capitalism, have kind of left that to other sociologists

494
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.039
<v Speaker 2>and anthropologists to study because this book really I was

495
00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.039
<v Speaker 2>really interested mostly in elites and mostly in you know,

496
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:33.960
<v Speaker 2>how they make deals. I will say that there are

497
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.519
<v Speaker 2>some you know, some stories that I have towards the

498
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:38.880
<v Speaker 2>end of the book that I don't want to go

499
00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:43.039
<v Speaker 2>so deep into of you know, a group of people

500
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:48.440
<v Speaker 2>that were protesting because they were you know, they felt

501
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.319
<v Speaker 2>like they were you know, their land was dispossessed and

502
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:54.759
<v Speaker 2>they were not paid fairly for their land. And so

503
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.839
<v Speaker 2>do I do think that whenever you have this kind

504
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:01.599
<v Speaker 2>of rapid development, there are inevitably going to be people

505
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:04.359
<v Speaker 2>that lose from this and people that you know, win

506
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:08.640
<v Speaker 2>hugely on the whole. Though most people would say that,

507
00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:12.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, this kind of rapid economic development has been

508
00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:16.519
<v Speaker 2>good because it's the GDP has risen. You know, it's

509
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:21.599
<v Speaker 2>you just watching a country really go from frontier to

510
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:23.160
<v Speaker 2>becoming an emerging market.

511
00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:27.599
<v Speaker 1>It is fascinating. I have family members who visited Vietnam

512
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.920
<v Speaker 1>and they were like, this is you know, it felt

513
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:32.680
<v Speaker 1>like a First World country. Yeah, some of the travel

514
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.519
<v Speaker 1>areas and things like that. So it really is remarkable. Kimberly,

515
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:38.759
<v Speaker 1>we were at the thirty minute mark. Is there anything

516
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:40.440
<v Speaker 1>you'd like to add or I mean, there's a lot

517
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.839
<v Speaker 1>more information in this book. We've covered kind of the

518
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:46.319
<v Speaker 1>introductory stuff. We haven't talked about impunity, tax strategies. What

519
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:47.960
<v Speaker 1>would you like to add or anything I missed before

520
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:48.599
<v Speaker 1>we rerap this up.

521
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.759
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think that you know, it's interesting that you,

522
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:58.000
<v Speaker 2>I guess just riffing off of I was listening to

523
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:02.119
<v Speaker 2>one of your podcasts around Jeffrey Epstein and and it

524
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:04.799
<v Speaker 2>just I think, riffing off of some of your own interests.

525
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.880
<v Speaker 2>It just made me think about how, you know, we

526
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:12.359
<v Speaker 2>live in a global world where deal brokering is largely

527
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:18.240
<v Speaker 2>done between political and economic elites and often through you know,

528
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:21.559
<v Speaker 2>trust is built through the labors of and you know,

529
00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:25.759
<v Speaker 2>women or having women around as accessories. And my first book,

530
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:28.759
<v Speaker 2>Dealing in Desire gets into this, but I really even

531
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:31.680
<v Speaker 2>with my second book, Spiderweb Capitalism, I talk about these

532
00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:36.119
<v Speaker 2>homo erotic triangles where you know, women are often used

533
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:42.240
<v Speaker 2>as props and accessories to one, you know, build relationships

534
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:46.160
<v Speaker 2>of trust, but also to create relationships of mutual hostage

535
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:50.880
<v Speaker 2>or mutual potential mutual destruction. And I think that that's

536
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.839
<v Speaker 2>something that's not what we're seeing is it's increasingly not

537
00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:58.559
<v Speaker 2>just unique to countries like Vietnam or you know, Asia,

538
00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:03.720
<v Speaker 2>but also with Trump and Epstein all of the people

539
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:06.200
<v Speaker 2>that were involved in that in the US. I'm just

540
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:10.279
<v Speaker 2>really we're seeing it here on the US side, and

541
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:12.079
<v Speaker 2>I think that, you know, riffing off of some of

542
00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:14.599
<v Speaker 2>your other work. I just one thing that I've been

543
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.279
<v Speaker 2>thinking a lot about in the aftermath of this book.

544
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.119
<v Speaker 2>The other day, my husband and I watched Tinder Swindler

545
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:26.519
<v Speaker 2>on Netflix, and you know, I'm just astounded by the

546
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:29.880
<v Speaker 2>fact that the guy was arrested and was out of

547
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:34.039
<v Speaker 2>jail within five months. And I just think a lot

548
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.799
<v Speaker 2>about how why is it that in the US, in particular,

549
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:45.039
<v Speaker 2>financial crimes seem to go I mean, you know, they

550
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.400
<v Speaker 2>just seem to go so unregulated, or I would say,

551
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.799
<v Speaker 2>like they're not criminalized in the same ways as small

552
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.000
<v Speaker 2>petty crimes. And I'm not a criminologist. I don't you know,

553
00:32:57.079 --> 00:33:00.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't really study, you know, the sort of criminal

554
00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:03.480
<v Speaker 2>justice system in the same way aside from reading, you know,

555
00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:05.519
<v Speaker 2>the books that I think the general public is reading,

556
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:08.119
<v Speaker 2>like Michelle Alexander's book The New Jim Crow. But I

557
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:10.759
<v Speaker 2>when I think about that book, I juxaposed to my

558
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.240
<v Speaker 2>book and up next to you know what Hal Weizman

559
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:16.319
<v Speaker 2>studies in his book What's the Matter with Delaware? I

560
00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:19.559
<v Speaker 2>can't help but wonder, you know, if if spider Web,

561
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:21.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, part of my argument is that, you know,

562
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:26.079
<v Speaker 2>with spiderweb capitalism, you have these systems that are very

563
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:30.039
<v Speaker 2>hard to take down, in part because they're not criminalized

564
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:33.119
<v Speaker 2>in the same way that we have, you know, this

565
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:36.599
<v Speaker 2>massive industrial prison complex around and I just you know,

566
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:38.599
<v Speaker 2>I guess I would put the question back on you

567
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:41.680
<v Speaker 2>looking at you know, the Epstein case, looking at other

568
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:46.319
<v Speaker 2>kinds of financial crimes. You know, what do you think

569
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:49.119
<v Speaker 2>or why do you think it is that things like

570
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:51.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, people the tender swindler guy and some of

571
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.960
<v Speaker 2>the people that I study largely either fly under the

572
00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:59.640
<v Speaker 2>radar or even when they are caught, I really don't

573
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:04.119
<v Speaker 2>have serious consequences compared to other types of crimes that

574
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:04.920
<v Speaker 2>we see out there.

575
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:07.359
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a great question. I think it's something

576
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:10.559
<v Speaker 1>about this kind of new globalization environment where some of

577
00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:15.800
<v Speaker 1>these new crimes are taking place transnationally, trans jurisdictionally, so

578
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:18.960
<v Speaker 1>they haven't the severity doesn't seem to be the same

579
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:23.000
<v Speaker 1>as it was within the particular jurisdiction. But I totally

580
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:28.679
<v Speaker 1>see that the similarities between these homo erotic, homosocial bonding things.

581
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:33.000
<v Speaker 1>That's probably call it pedosocial in Epstein's case, not all

582
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:37.079
<v Speaker 1>the time, but the mutual hostage. That's why though everybody's

583
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:39.719
<v Speaker 1>quiet about Epstein, because a lot of those people got

584
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:43.320
<v Speaker 1>in that same relationship, not in a frontier market capitalism,

585
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.239
<v Speaker 1>but in some ways you could say that's a frontier,

586
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, sociological environment, whatever went down to that island

587
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:56.159
<v Speaker 1>or whatever was going on. There are definitely similarities there,

588
00:34:56.199 --> 00:35:01.039
<v Speaker 1>but I don't know. There's a lot of politicization of

589
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:03.360
<v Speaker 1>the law I think involved, which is why some of

590
00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:06.079
<v Speaker 1>these people get away with light sentences and some don't,

591
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:09.800
<v Speaker 1>Like Epstein wasn't got a very light sentence back in

592
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:13.079
<v Speaker 1>two thousand and eight. So yeah, there's there's a lot

593
00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:17.079
<v Speaker 1>of questions. There's a lot of questions that add on why.

594
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:20.000
<v Speaker 1>And I think that, uh, there are different frontiers. So

595
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:23.199
<v Speaker 1>there's a frontier in Vietnam and Meanmar, but there's frontiers

596
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:27.079
<v Speaker 1>in all over the world that people aren't seeing whatever's

597
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:30.239
<v Speaker 1>going on in the Virgin Islands or maybe some of

598
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:33.360
<v Speaker 1>these other places where there a lot of sketchy things

599
00:35:33.400 --> 00:35:40.039
<v Speaker 1>happened in Venezuela. So uh, it's it's there's definitely inequality,

600
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:43.800
<v Speaker 1>like you mentioned in your book, inequality between the actors

601
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:47.880
<v Speaker 1>of these wealthy, powerful people and the people who are

602
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:52.519
<v Speaker 1>not in that one percent. So yeah, I think so

603
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:55.559
<v Speaker 1>great book, really fascinating discussion. Thank you so much. The

604
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.639
<v Speaker 1>where's the best place to get Spiderweb Capitalist.

605
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:03.679
<v Speaker 2>Princeton University Press website, but also it will be available

606
00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:05.880
<v Speaker 2>on Amazon, which I think is a place many people

607
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:09.320
<v Speaker 2>are shopping. I saw it at Target. I saw it

608
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:13.719
<v Speaker 2>listen at Target, So I think you know Amazon, Princeton

609
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:18.320
<v Speaker 2>University Press's website. I hope. I hope it's out there

610
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.920
<v Speaker 2>in many places.

611
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:23.159
<v Speaker 1>I think it will be. And then the best place

612
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:27.440
<v Speaker 1>to contact you is either Twitter or your website ww

613
00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:31.719
<v Speaker 1>kimberlykwog dot com. Right, yes, so if anybody wants to

614
00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:33.639
<v Speaker 1>ask you questions, they can find out there. Do you

615
00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:35.559
<v Speaker 1>have copies of your do you sell copies of your

616
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:36.639
<v Speaker 1>books through your website?

617
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:39.360
<v Speaker 2>I do not sell copies of my book through my website,

618
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.719
<v Speaker 2>but they are there. There are links on my website

619
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:44.880
<v Speaker 2>for where to get them.

620
00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:50.719
<v Speaker 1>Cool and great book, really highly recommended. Again. The title

621
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:55.239
<v Speaker 1>of it is Spiderweb Capitalism, How global Elites exploit frontier

622
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:59.119
<v Speaker 1>markets and the author is Kimberly K. Wong. Book published

623
00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:01.559
<v Speaker 1>September sixth, twenty twenty two. Thank you so much, for

624
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:01.920
<v Speaker 1>your time.

625
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me on your show.

626
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:05.679
<v Speaker 1>Awesome stay there, Say There,