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True murder the most shocking 25 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:18.480 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:26.120 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 27 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:30.120 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 28 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:34.159 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 29 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:37.719 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 30 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:51.840 Good Evening. A Voice out of Nowhere Dell's deep into 31 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:55.799 the mind of a psychotic killer. In this tragic true 32 00:01:55.840 --> 00:02:00.000 story about one young man's heroing descent into madness and murder. 33 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:04.079 A Voice out of Nowhere offers a rare glimpse inside 34 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.560 the workings of a criminally disordered mind. In a narrative 35 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:10.960 style of nonfiction novels like in Cold Blood and Columbine 36 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:15.840 best selling author Janice Holly Booth draws from court transcripts, 37 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.599 eyewitness statements, and personal interviews to go beyond the headlines 38 00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:24.560 and share little known details of the tragedy. Fascinating, riveting, 39 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:28.000 and heartbreaking, A Voice out of Nowhere will incite readers 40 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.400 to think differently about the insanity, defense and the awful 41 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:35.280 consequences of untreated mental illness. The book that we're featuring 42 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:38.639 this evening is A Voice out of Nowhere Inside the 43 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:42.759 Mind of a mass Murderer with my special guest journalist 44 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:46.159 and author, Janis Holly Booth. Welcome to the program, and 45 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:49.599 thank you for agreeing to this interview. Janis Holly Booth, 46 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.719 Thank you, Dan, I'm glad to be here. Thank you 47 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:58.599 very much. Very interesting book, and let's get right to this. 48 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:03.000 This crime and the trial and everything that we really 49 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:05.680 talk about in this book, for the most part, happened 50 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:10.879 in the eighties, in nineteen after nineteen eighty three. Tell 51 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:15.479 us why you felt it important to put this book 52 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.240 out at this time. What made you or what compelled 53 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:21.039 you to put out this book at this time. 54 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:27.280 Well, Dan, I was actually a court recorder at the 55 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:32.599 time that the Voice Out of Nowhere case came into 56 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:36.800 the courtroom, and I was really fascinated by how untreated 57 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.000 mental illness can drive people to do really the unthinkable. 58 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:43.560 And I'd always thought I would tell the story, but 59 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.479 it just never seemed like the right time. And then, 60 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:52.479 you know, the last twenty years in the United States, 61 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:59.280 we've had just growing numbers of murders committed by people 62 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:04.280 who were found to mentally ill, and I decided when 63 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:06.960 Sandy Hook happened that it was probably time to tell 64 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:11.560 this story. When the Aurora movie theater shooting happened, I 65 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:13.879 knew it was time to tell the story to help 66 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.720 people gain an insight into the mind of someone who 67 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:21.480 is driven to do the unthinkable because of the mental 68 00:04:21.519 --> 00:04:23.480 illness that they suffer from. 69 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.480 Now, you say you were a court recorder, and so 70 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:30.959 you're involved in the criminal justice system, but you were 71 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:38.199 also interested in mental illness and schizophrenians and psychology. And 72 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:42.759 in the beginning of the book you talk about what 73 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:48.079 inspired you to wow? What again gave you this interest 74 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:53.319 in psychology of an interest unlike most people's interests. So 75 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.560 tell us about these incidents that shaped your life and 76 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:58.839 direction in your life. 77 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.199 Well, when I'm in my early twenties, I was working 78 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:05.920 in the court system. I was also studying creative writing 79 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:08.120 at college at night, and I had a woman in 80 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:12.560 my class who was a very good writer, and she 81 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.040 kind of disappeared from class. We never really knew what 82 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.120 happened to her. And then one day I found myself 83 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:22.120 in court and she was brought in because and she'd 84 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:24.959 been arrested because she tried to commit suicide by jumping 85 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:31.120 off a bridge. And she was the woman who had 86 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:36.360 disappeared from my writing class, and so she didn't recognize me, 87 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:40.160 but I was, you know, obviously very interested in what 88 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:42.639 had happened to her, what was going to happen to her, 89 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.000 and I followed her case. It turned out that she 90 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:52.120 was she had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, she was 91 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:57.560 not staying on her medications. She had she'd had a baby, 92 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:01.319 and the baby had been taken away from her. And 93 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:04.920 I watched her descent, and it was absolutely harrowing to 94 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:10.399 see this former friend of mine be literally railroaded into 95 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:12.560 failure by the system. 96 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:14.120 And she was. 97 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:20.839 She was institutionalized at a mental institution known as Riverview, 98 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:26.000 and she committed suicide while under suicide watch there, and 99 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.240 I was completely outraged by that that the system that 100 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:33.079 was supposedly trying to keep her safe had failed her 101 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:37.399 on such an epic level. Two years later, another one 102 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:43.040 of my writing fellow writing students was murdered. He himself 103 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.959 was a person with paranoid schizophrenia and was trying to 104 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:50.879 make a life for himself. His roommate was also a 105 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:54.519 diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, but he had gone off his medication 106 00:06:55.319 --> 00:07:00.120 and killed my friends. And in that case, my and 107 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:04.439 death barely even made the headlines. And so I just 108 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:10.360 became fascinated by this mental illness known as schizophrenia and 109 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.600 really wanted to know, you know, what might it be 110 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:18.480 like to have to live under its spell, what goes 111 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:21.800 on in the mind of someone who is possessed by 112 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:25.879 that mental illness. And thus began really a lifelong fascination 113 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:29.319 with the disease and a dedication to studying it and 114 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:31.160 telling the stories. 115 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:36.160 Now to give it a little aside as well, This 116 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:41.079 this crime, this incredible mass murder, happened in the eighties 117 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:46.920 eighty three, and you moved to the United States North Carolina, 118 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:53.839 South Carolina in eighty five. Kid, it's not really I'm 119 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:57.800 just curious myself. Why did you move at that time. 120 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:02.360 We'll be able to talk about some of the study 121 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:04.600 that you've done since you've been a US residence and 122 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:09.120 the differences from Canada and the West, and that'll be 123 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:12.319 important to this story, I think as well. 124 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:17.639 Well, I actually moved not from British Columbia to North Carolina, 125 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:19.879 which would kind of make sense, but I moved from 126 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:24.399 British Columbia to Buffalo, New York, and I lived there 127 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:26.199 for thirteen years. I like to say, I did a 128 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:30.319 hard time in Buffalo for thirteen years, but only because 129 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.519 of the snow. You know, the people were wonderful, the 130 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:39.360 food was great, but I actually moved because of marriage, 131 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:44.919 and when that didn't work out, I stayed in New 132 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:47.879 York for a while and then had an opportunity to 133 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:51.120 move to where it's sunny all the time in North Carolina. 134 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:55.440 And I've been here now for about sixteen years. 135 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:02.399 Now. Getting back to this incredible case and incident, tell 136 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:06.720 our audience for those that don't know in proximity to 137 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.159 a city that they had even an international audience with 138 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:12.879 no Vancouver, British Columbia on the west coast of Canada, 139 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:17.679 and we're talking about Coquitlam, British Columbia. So just describe 140 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:20.159 what this community is. Is a suburb, is it a 141 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:23.480 community outside of Vancouver? What's it really like? Tell us 142 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:25.480 how big it is, and then we can see that 143 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:28.399 the impact of two people that you know, going to 144 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:33.639 this one little hospital and or from the same hospital 145 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:39.000 and like you say, meeting there their desk, both people 146 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:39.320 you know. 147 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:44.240 Right right. Well, of course Vancouver is a huge and 148 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:49.639 beautiful city. Coquitlam it's probably a thirty minute drive from there, 149 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:53.960 and in nineteen eighty three it wasn't overly developed. It's 150 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:57.720 quite a bustling place now, but it was a quiet, 151 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:03.080 kind of sleepy neighborhood. Actually, the murders occurred only eight 152 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:08.000 miles from where I was living, and uh, you know, 153 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:15.519 just really nothing, nothing, much of any national import happened 154 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:19.080 in these what they what they called bedroom communities. So 155 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:24.679 when this particular mass murder occurred, it caught the nation's 156 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.519 attention in such a big way for lots of different reasons. 157 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:30.799 A it was you know, it was considered at the 158 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:35.120 time one of Canada's worst mass murders. But it was 159 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:40.840 committed by a young man who had absolutely no history 160 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:45.720 of violence. And yet the crime was was gruesome, horrific 161 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:52.639 and inexplicable, So you know, it had it had those 162 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:58.080 qualities of capturing national attention right away, not only for 163 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:03.399 its you know, the hugeness of it, but also because 164 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:05.240 it literally came out of nowhere. 165 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:16.039 Now, tell us the background of the perpetrator, the killer 166 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:20.320 in this case, and the family, the available information that 167 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:24.279 you had on give us the background on this young man, 168 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:27.720 because you said this man was very similar in age 169 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:32.080 a year apart you and he and tell us as 170 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:34.240 much as you can about the family itself. 171 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.559 Sure, the young man was twenty two years old. I 172 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:46.159 was twenty three, which seems impossible right now, Dan, you know, 173 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:49.559 I mean, I just can't imagine that. But he was 174 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.039 a young man who was from a fairly large family, 175 00:11:54.840 --> 00:12:00.759 a very loving family, a family with no draw I mean, 176 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:04.279 you know, parents were good people, They worked hard to 177 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:09.360 provide for their kids. No mental illness in the family history. 178 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:14.080 They did move around a lot. The young man, his 179 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.559 name is Bruce, who committed the murders. He has some 180 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:21.120 issues growing up. You know, he was a little bit dyslexic. 181 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:26.600 He was an identical twin. But he was diagnosed early 182 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:32.240 on as being quote a mirror twin, which I know 183 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.320 there are people in the audience gasping now because that's 184 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:39.679 not really a legitimate diagnosis for anything, but back then 185 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:43.840 it was. And I think it kind of set in 186 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:50.240 his mind this idea that he was always going to 187 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:55.799 be opposite, you know, opposite. Everything that happened to him 188 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.879 was opposite what would happen to his brother. His brother 189 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:03.519 had good gray it's Bruce had horrible grades. His brother 190 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:08.120 was very organized and neat Bruce was very disorganized and 191 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:12.159 kind of disheveled, and this diagnosis of being a mirror 192 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:17.039 I think set into Bruce's mind the idea of opposites, 193 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:21.360 which would play a huge role in the ideology that 194 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:26.960 he created. His mind created the delusions created around the 195 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:32.320 circumstances of the murders. But he was, you know, up 196 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:36.080 until the time that he started exhibiting signs of mental illness, 197 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:41.000 he was very likable. He was a you know, really friendly, 198 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:48.279 very happy, go lucky, easygoing young man who had had 199 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:53.039 a lot of friends and really just didn't have any 200 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:58.519 skeletons in the closet. I should also mention, because this is, uh, 201 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:00.919 this is something that's going on in our society right 202 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:03.440 now that we need to be paying attention to, that 203 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.879 he was a heavy, heavy user of marijuana and had 204 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.600 been since grade seven or seventh grade as we say 205 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:16.960 in the US, and doctors did agree later on that 206 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:22.960 that probably contributed to the severity of his psychosis. 207 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:29.120 I wanted to ask where did he get the concept 208 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:32.600 again for and please explain this a little bit more, 209 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:34.559 And I guess maybe with this question you will be 210 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:38.720 able to the concept of this mirror twin where did 211 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:42.480 this come from? And when was Bruce and his family 212 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:47.679 tell us about this incident where this concept is accepted 213 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:50.600 by Bruce. But more importantly, who is the person that 214 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:53.039 explained this concept? 215 00:14:54.279 --> 00:15:01.159 Okay, Well, his mother, Irene, was very worried that Bruce 216 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:03.759 was not doing well in school, even though he was 217 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.799 trying very very hard, and they were putting a lot 218 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:10.559 of pressure on him to do better because you know, 219 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:16.799 his twin brother was doing just fine. And when when 220 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:21.399 improvement wasn't forthcoming, she decided, Irene decided to take Bruce 221 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:26.240 to see a specialist, and she did, and he took 222 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.720 the standard tests, you know, to check for dyslexia and 223 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:34.759 certain other things. And while he was in the doctor's office, 224 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:39.639 this this doctor, I think he was a psychologist, made 225 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:44.000 the pronouncement that that Bruce was a mirror twin and 226 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.879 and we we do have evidence that it kind of 227 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:50.240 really shocked both of them. It shocked the mother and 228 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.919 and it shocked Bruce. And Bruce said later on in 229 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:59.559 interviews with with the psychiatrists that that, you know, that's 230 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:02.120 kind of when the idea stuck in his mind that 231 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.399 whatever he saw in the world going forward, he needed 232 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:10.879 to perceive it as an opposite, So black would be white, 233 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:15.720 man would be woman, right would be wrong. I mean, 234 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:20.720 I'm being very sort of general, But that suggestion that 235 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:23.559 the doctor made, I think was one of the seeds 236 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:27.519 that grew when his mental illness took hold. 237 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:34.600 Yeah, it seems like a ridiculous diagnosis, all things considered. Regardless, 238 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:38.399 I was unaware of this diagnosis. Sounds like something out 239 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:44.720 of a B movie. Anyway, must be Canada. We'll get 240 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:46.679 back to that. We'll get to that point a little 241 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:52.320 bit later. Anyway, So at this time, he was not 242 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.759 on any medication. After this first meeting with a psychologist, 243 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.200 how did his mental health and how did his did 244 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.200 he frequent this doctor quite often? And how did his 245 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:05.599 mental health progress from that point? 246 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:09.680 Well, he actually was not showing any signs of mental 247 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:17.279 illness at this point because he was maybe you know, 248 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.039 I'm just pulling from my memory now, but maybe you know, 249 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:26.160 very very early teens. Maybe he was twelve, but we 250 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:31.200 don't really know. You know, nobody can really say for 251 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:35.720 sure when symptoms of schizophrenia begin to take hold, and 252 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:38.240 maybe you know, it was very mild at that point, 253 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.119 because he did sort of become fixated on the idea 254 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:48.240 of opposites. But the signs of mental illness really manifested 255 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:54.599 in him in nineteen eighty two around October, and he 256 00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:59.720 started to hear voices, particularly from coming from the television, 257 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.960 and the voices were telling him that the world was 258 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:10.039 going to end and that he, Bruce, had some part 259 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:15.400 in that. Then he began to hear a particular voice 260 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:20.079 from what he called the White Woman with eyes of fire, 261 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:27.599 and she told him that he was alternatively God, the Devil, 262 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:35.160 the Antichrist, Jehovah, and that he was about to become 263 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:40.000 time with a capital T. And so he had all 264 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:45.519 of these very confusing messages coming at him, and he 265 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:50.319 was actually saying to people, I think I'm possessed. I'm 266 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:54.440 hearing voices. I don't know what's happening to me. He 267 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:58.160 was certainly telling his parents, he was telling his friends, 268 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.119 but his parents were aware that he was a heavy 269 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.240 marijuana smoker, and they initially thought, you know, it was 270 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:09.319 just due to that, so they really didn't take him 271 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:13.000 very seriously. But then it got to the point where 272 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:18.519 he couldn't sleep, he couldn't eat, he was shaking all 273 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:23.640 the time. He was just fixated on this idea that 274 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.000 the world was going to end, and got the idea 275 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:32.519 that the answer, which was written specifically for him, was 276 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.200 in the Book of Revelation. So he began to read 277 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:41.440 that religiously, no pun intended. He began to read it 278 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:47.799 to the exclusion of everything else and began to form 279 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:55.599 what is really a very fascinating thread of reality out 280 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.079 of unreality in his mind, and that's what ultimately drove 281 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:00.720 him to commit a mass murder. 282 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:07.160 Now let's go backwards just a bit. You talked about 283 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:12.720 the chronic marijuana use, and again we'll discuss this a 284 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:16.759 little bit later, because I have heard this research that 285 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:19.680 at least it can be connected to the schizophrenia. But 286 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:23.079 at the same time, marijuana youse at an early age, 287 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:25.880 schizophrenia on set is typically at. 288 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:26.680 This early age. 289 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:30.759 I don't know if that's you know, I think that's 290 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.160 a point of contention in terms of the drug or 291 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:38.119 which came first, the chicken, early egg, but certainly it 292 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:43.519 can contribute to the overall symptoms of out of touch 293 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:46.720 with reality. Now let's get back though to what was 294 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:49.839 his situation in terms of he had this loving family. 295 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:53.519 They were pretty normal family at this chronic marijuana use, 296 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.799 but he also was living with was he living with 297 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:00.440 a roommate and was there the eye dea that he 298 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:04.720 wasn't sleeping, which again is very very consistent with what 299 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:11.279 schizophrenia's schizophrenics exhibit in terms of behavior, not sleeping, not eating. 300 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:14.559 Tell us about what you wrote in the book about 301 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:19.799 in terms of his situation, his living situation, his lifestyle 302 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.240 at that time, Well. 303 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.119 He had had a number of jobs that he wasn't 304 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:28.000 able to keep. He worked as a roofer, He worked 305 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:32.640 as a car mechanic, and he was actually very good mechanic, 306 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:34.880 but he wasn't able to hold down these jobs. And 307 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.440 then he got a job as a as a swamper 308 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.359 on a garbage truck and basically the guy who hangs 309 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:45.400 off the back of the garbage truck and jumps down 310 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.799 and you know, empties the garbage into the truck. And 311 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:53.680 he really he liked that job. You know, with his 312 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:56.559 dyslexia and everything. He didn't have to fill out reports, 313 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.279 he didn't have to read manuals. It was he could 314 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:01.920 go to work, could do his you know, do his job, 315 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:06.079 and and so that that was a good situation for him. 316 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:11.319 He was living in Lonsdale on Lonsdale Avenue in North Vancouver, 317 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.759 which is near Grouse Mountains for those of our listeners 318 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:19.240 who've ever been out there and speed, and he he 319 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:23.200 had a roommate who was also a heavy marijuana user, 320 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:28.039 and the roommate was the first person to really notice 321 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.960 the signs. And when he gave evidence in court, he 322 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:38.400 said that that Bruce was constantly saying, uh, you know, 323 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:41.279 the world's going to end. Look, look the television, Look 324 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.640 at the televisions. And then Bruce would sit there and 325 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:47.720 stare at it, and it was, you know, it was 326 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:51.880 an episode of All in the Family, and you know 327 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:54.359 that there would be a laugh track going, there'd be 328 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.000 a really funny scene and Bruce would say, oh my, 329 00:22:57.160 --> 00:22:59.200 you know, there it is. Look, the world is going 330 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:08.720 to end. But his roommate, for whatever reason, just dismissed it, 331 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:11.920 didn't tell his parents, didn't reach out, didn't say to Bruce, 332 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:14.720 you know, I think you might need help. And then 333 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:19.359 there was this incident. As this whole thing was escalating, 334 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:22.519 there was an incident when his roommate came home with 335 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:27.519 a friend and there were three coffee five coffee mugs 336 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:32.519 set out on the table and Bruce told them that 337 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:35.839 the three of them and two of their other friends 338 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.200 had to be there that night because the world was 339 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:40.960 going to end and they all had to be together. 340 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:47.680 So they the two friends said, you're you know, you're crazy, 341 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:53.440 ha ha, and they left. Well, Bruce was so convinced 342 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:55.880 that that the world was going to end and that 343 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.759 they all had to be together and it was his 344 00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:01.119 job to make sure that they were that he ran 345 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:08.559 over to the friend's house where they all were and 346 00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:11.319 just you know, was just begging and pleading with them, 347 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:13.759 we all have to be together at eight o'clock. The 348 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:15.640 world's going to end the world's going to end, and 349 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.160 you know, they put him off and mocked him. He 350 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:23.039 got really angry, and as he was leaving, he opened 351 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:27.200 the door and he fell to his knees and started 352 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:31.799 weeping because he said he saw the beast. And what 353 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:35.720 was there was the neighbor's dog, you know, wagging its tail. 354 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:39.960 But what Bruce saw was this hideous monster with fangs 355 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.039 dripping blood, and he thought that the beast had come 356 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:47.759 to end the world. And so that's when things really 357 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:54.240 started going haywire. But nobody got him any help, and 358 00:24:55.960 --> 00:25:02.720 so Bruce was experiencing these kinds of episodes, these delusions 359 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:07.799 and hallucinations on a fairly regular basis, with no one 360 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:11.319 who would believe him or help him. By the time 361 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:15.039 it got to be you know, really critical, he was 362 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:21.720 really I mean, you know, fully holy psychotic. 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Board were prohibited by locks eight team 387 00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:21.759 plus terms and conditions of flags. 388 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:22.480 See website for. 389 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.799 Details connected to reality at all. But he hadn't tipped over, 390 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:29.960 you know, he hadn't gotten violent. But that's only because 391 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.240 he hadn't in his mind figured out what all of 392 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:37.039 these messages were. And it would it would take that, 393 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.960 It would take the weaving together of all of these 394 00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:43.279 messages and creating in his mind a plausible story before 395 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:46.240 he would commit the murders. 396 00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:49.599 No, a little bit more of his background. Was his 397 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:54.519 family at all religious? And does did Jehovah Witness pamphlets 398 00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:55.920 have anything to do with this story? 399 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.400 As family was not they were not religious. There was 400 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:04.440 absolutely no evidence presented in court that the family went 401 00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:11.319