Speaker 1: It's the Lapsed Van Wrestling podcast special report. The Lapsed
Speaker 1: Fan presents the Complete Hul Cogan, a real American story,
Speaker 1: brought to you by Garage Pierre.
Speaker 2: We had to pull this one together, Boss, because in
Speaker 2: the special interview Vane, if we're going to be in
Speaker 2: the middle of the Complete Hull Cogan, we all know
Speaker 2: where we're heading, right, We're heading to Hulk gets massive,
Speaker 2: Hulk makes millions, Hulk has to shrink again when the the.
Speaker 3: Stay rights deflation, we're talking about inflation.
Speaker 2: We're talking about deflation in the months to come on
Speaker 2: TLF and serendipitously, there is a book that has dropped
Speaker 2: that we think might make a very nice compendium. This
Speaker 2: author's really entire Titan series. In a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: We'll track kind of the pivotal moments in which Hulk
Speaker 2: Hogan and the WWF came to fruition, but perhaps no
Speaker 2: more than the latest release, which is tight and shrinking.
Speaker 2: The author is James Dixon. You might know him from
Speaker 2: his many collaborations with Kenny McIntosh and the Inside the
Speaker 2: Rope's Crew over in the UK. He's done a series
Speaker 2: of books chronicling and really nice compendiums of everything that's
Speaker 2: been said by people who were there through the Titan rise.
Speaker 2: You might remember Titan screwed, Titan sinking, Titan shattered, and
Speaker 2: now it's Titan shrinking. How wrestling's muscle lost its power.
Speaker 2: James Dixon joins TLF to talk all about it. James,
Speaker 2: great to have you on the show man.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. My absolute pleasure. I'm a big
Speaker 4: fun of you guys, so it's great to be with you.
Speaker 2: Oh it's a good start, so very good start. I
Speaker 2: want to start by going to a point in the
Speaker 2: book where you talked about your author conducted interviews, because
Speaker 2: if folks don't know one of the things James does
Speaker 2: exceptionally well, it's not only like what we do. Go
Speaker 2: through all the shoot interviews, go through all the media articles,
Speaker 2: go through all the observers and the torches, all the
Speaker 2: contemporaneous stuff, and really pull it together because it is
Speaker 2: so hard in professional wrestling to make sure you account
Speaker 2: for everybody's voice, not only everyone who was there, but
Speaker 2: everyone who claims to be there, and all of the
Speaker 2: debunking that has to go with, you know, the fact
Speaker 2: that you're you're you're sort of quoting professional liars, for
Speaker 2: ninety percent of what you're doing. And so James, at
Speaker 2: the at the end of Titan Shrinking, which is available
Speaker 2: now on Amazon and wherever get your books, has an
Speaker 2: author conducted interview section. A couple of folks really caught
Speaker 2: my eye, James, and I wondering if you could start
Speaker 2: just taking us into how these different folks contributed. One
Speaker 2: of the people you talked to was JJ Dillon, which
Speaker 2: he was there of course and a vice president of
Speaker 2: talent relations capacity. And first, you know, to introduce folks
Speaker 2: to the book, and then if you could start with Jj,
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear kind of what you gleaned from
Speaker 2: talking to him.
Speaker 4: Sure. Yeah, So with so the intro to the book is,
Speaker 4: as you mentioned, I'd release the other three the Titan trilogy,
Speaker 4: which covered ninety five to ninety seven, and for the
Speaker 4: last decade, Kenny Macintosh and the Ropes has been pestering
Speaker 4: me relentlessly to write a new one. I'm just like, man,
Speaker 4: there there's nothing I write about ninety eight ninety nine,
Speaker 4: like we w F then was on fire, So who cares?
Speaker 4: You know, there's nothing, there's nothing interesting about them doing
Speaker 4: well and everyone getting along and making a lot of money.
Speaker 4: But I was like, you know, my thought about it,
Speaker 4: ninety two, there's a lot happens in ninety two. You've
Speaker 4: got the UK boom, which which was huge. I don't think,
Speaker 4: you know, US fans realized just how big the UK
Speaker 4: boom was. Like, obviously they're aware of it, but I
Speaker 4: don't think there's an appreciation for that's as big as
Speaker 4: wrestling's ever been in the UK. Yes, was in ninety two,
Speaker 4: and not just for Summer Slam, you know, it was
Speaker 4: just everywhere, everywhere, mainstream. And he's like, well, that that's
Speaker 4: a big part of it. And it's a real nice
Speaker 4: juxtaposition with the WF in the US and the rest
Speaker 4: of the world's going down quite a lot and in
Speaker 4: every metric really, and Hogan obviously leaving is a big,
Speaker 4: big part of that, and are the reasons why and
Speaker 4: everything going down behind the scenes, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 4: there's there's a story here to be told. And the
Speaker 4: more I thought about it, I said, well, yeah, okay,
Speaker 4: you can go into ninety three and kind of the
Speaker 4: New Generation stuff, and and then obviously the big climax
Speaker 4: of the new trilogy, which is what this inevitably now
Speaker 4: is is obviously the steroidrout which which you guys know
Speaker 4: a lot about, And yeah, there's that's there's there's a
Speaker 4: task aheademy on that one to get that coherent and
Speaker 4: making sense. But it's it's a fun project. You know,
Speaker 4: it was a fun project to work on. And I
Speaker 4: wasn't convinced when I started that there'd be enough to
Speaker 4: fill out a book, but then I realized there was
Speaker 4: more than enough. You know, so much happened, so many
Speaker 4: people leave, so many new faces come in, and yeah,
Speaker 4: so it's worked out pretty well. But as for for JJ,
Speaker 4: that's actually an interview I did ten years ago. Wow.
Speaker 4: Funnily enough, So I interviewed JJ for the for the
Speaker 4: original trilogy. I don't remember how I got hold of him.
Speaker 4: I think it was through so I'm friends with their
Speaker 4: doc to Tom Richard, and he because I was there
Speaker 4: was a point where it's never going to come out,
Speaker 4: so he hopes it. But there was a point where
Speaker 4: I was working with him on his autobiography and we
Speaker 4: worked it for a while and then you know, it
Speaker 4: kind of fell through for a bunch of reasons, and
Speaker 4: you know, but we stayed close, and when I was
Speaker 4: doing this book, obviously I spoke to all those books. Sorry,
Speaker 4: I spoke to him and I said, look, I'd love
Speaker 4: to speak like JJ and others, because people always hear
Speaker 4: the restless point of view, but they're not the ones
Speaker 4: who matter because they don't either know what was going on,
Speaker 4: they don't remember, or they make it up, as as
Speaker 4: you alluded to. The guys who were working behind the
Speaker 4: scenes in the office or who were like the PR
Speaker 4: guys or the ring crew or whatever, they're the ones
Speaker 4: you want to speak to you because they remember it,
Speaker 4: you know, they remember it all. So and JJ was
Speaker 4: obviously really heavily involved behind the scenes in WF. So yeah,
Speaker 4: Tom Tom hooked me up with him, and I just
Speaker 4: give a call, and he was very very pleasant, very cordial,
Speaker 4: and you know, very willing to share anything that I
Speaker 4: asked him, and to the best of his recollection, obviously,
Speaker 4: and a lot of it was already in his really
Speaker 4: excellent book, which is Wrestlers Like Seagulls and you know,
Speaker 4: which is a very accurate description. And yeah, he was
Speaker 4: very willing, very accommodating. But like I say, it was
Speaker 4: a decade ago, so in terms of what he said,
Speaker 4: I'm not entirely sure word for word what he said.
Speaker 4: But I did make notes of everything he told me,
Speaker 4: and a lot of it because he would.
Speaker 2: Go he was in the office during a lot of
Speaker 2: this like panic mode, and he's credited or it depends,
Speaker 2: like you want to phrase it with getting Jerry Jarrett
Speaker 2: involved right in case goes to jail.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, that was because there's a lot of dispute
Speaker 4: over that, whether that's true or right. It's like, oh,
Speaker 4: you know, you get people said, now, now, Vince, that's
Speaker 4: not why he brought in Jerry Jarrett. It was he
Speaker 4: just kind of brought him in for advice. And it
Speaker 4: wasn't because he was going to jail. It was because
Speaker 4: he was going to jail. Of course, it was Vince.
Speaker 4: Vince was convinced, convinced that was going to be made
Speaker 4: an example of. So there had to be a contingency, right,
Speaker 4: and who I mean it was Jerry Jarrett the right option,
Speaker 4: probably not given the sort of style of wrestling he
Speaker 4: promoted and what Vince liked. And I don't think anyone
Speaker 4: could have really replaced Vince, you know, and been the Vince.
Speaker 4: It would have been Vince run from prison and everyone
Speaker 4: else just doing what what he said, but yeah, it
Speaker 4: was JJ wh wh who brought him in because he
Speaker 4: realized that Vince needed help. Amazing.
Speaker 3: So, Boss, have one quick question about Tom Pritchard. Now
Speaker 3: his his doctorate in desire? Is it an MD or
Speaker 3: a PhD? Do we know?
Speaker 4: I think he's got a master's degree.
Speaker 3: Yes, there we all right curious.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when he said it'll never it'll never come out,
Speaker 2: I was so deflated because I thought we'd finally get
Speaker 2: an answer to that long burning question relative to his CV.
Speaker 4: I'll confermo deny whether that's in the book.
Speaker 2: I'm afraid JP is going to turn it to you anyway,
Speaker 2: because someone else that that James spoke to was Harvey Goldsmith,
Speaker 2: who was involved a lot with bringing WWF to Wembley
Speaker 2: for SummerSlam ninety two and all of the UK tours
Speaker 2: and really kind of plugged in from the UK side
Speaker 2: when the rock and wrestling phenomenon began. We know, well, Boss,
Speaker 2: you know how prominent that era was for UK fans
Speaker 2: because we spent a lot of time talking about ninety
Speaker 2: one ninety two and so many of the listeners are
Speaker 2: from the UK.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's it's tremendous. I mean, we we've I've really
Speaker 3: gotten a whole new appreciation. I mean we have, not
Speaker 3: just me, but we've gotten a whole new appreciation for
Speaker 3: that that era, because there are so many shows that
Speaker 3: we have been led to and that we have now
Speaker 3: watched and reviewed that we didn't even know necessarily existed,
Speaker 3: you know, back then, at least not on tape. I
Speaker 3: always think of the the Battle Royal at the Alfred
Speaker 3: I said, Alfred Hall, like Alfred Hayes Lord, Alfred Hayes Hall,
Speaker 3: and it's I just I knew it was big, but
Speaker 3: I'm I really had no idea that it was as
Speaker 3: big as as its being described. It's really remarkable that
Speaker 3: it was kind of a mainstream thing as wrestling was
Speaker 3: kind of dying off in the States. You know. It's
Speaker 3: such a weird, kind of a weird juxtaposition to use
Speaker 3: that big word.
Speaker 4: I mean, with the UK, it did get start to
Speaker 4: get big in probably ninety and eighty nine, when they
Speaker 4: first came over and when it was on TV, and
Speaker 4: it was a strange thing over here because it was
Speaker 4: on TV on on different stations, so it kind of
Speaker 4: bounced around and everyone kind of wanted it, you know,
Speaker 4: and it became the thing for SkyTV over here to
Speaker 4: Laune Hull, Cogan was like front and center of SkyTV's
Speaker 4: launch alongside you know, Premier League football and movies. It
Speaker 4: was it was every bit as big and as big
Speaker 4: a part of the package that you had to pay
Speaker 4: for which was new over here. Then you know, it
Speaker 4: was huge. And Harvey Goldsmith very smart guy, you know,
Speaker 4: very you know, big name promoter over here, and he
Speaker 4: he saw it, you know, pretty quickly, and he made
Speaker 4: sure that he was the one, you know to get
Speaker 4: in there with w F and and you know, bring
Speaker 4: him over and even though that was the case, he
Speaker 4: was shocked when you know, Vince I think it was
Speaker 4: Vince called him direct or someone from Vince's office was like,
Speaker 4: can you get as Wembley And he's like, man, that's
Speaker 4: going to be that's going to be a challenge. That's
Speaker 4: going to be a challenge. He had, like he had
Speaker 4: booked Wembley before. There was a really famous concert over
Speaker 4: here called Live aid In.
Speaker 3: Concert.
Speaker 4: Yeah it still is like it's still like this iconic
Speaker 4: event and that and that was Harvey who was involved
Speaker 4: in that, and you know he took notice and he
Speaker 4: was well aware of what was going on here and
Speaker 4: and him and his team, you know, they wanted to
Speaker 4: they did want to bring it over and they and
Speaker 4: they did, and you know, he spoke to Hogan, he
Speaker 4: spoke to you know a lot of the guys. He
Speaker 4: became friendly with them and they trusted him. And obviously
Speaker 4: he did great job over here because it was always
Speaker 4: always sold out like that, you couldn't get tickets. It
Speaker 4: was unbelievable how difficult it was, you know, the market
Speaker 4: for them, and it was. Yeah, he noticed how well
Speaker 4: it did on Sky. It was kind of the Simpsons
Speaker 4: and wf they were the two big things, right and
Speaker 4: then and I think he noticed there was a PR
Speaker 4: guy called Chris Pool and he had a business partner
Speaker 4: called Alan Edwards, and I think they'd been summoned to
Speaker 4: a meeting with Harvey. And he was like, right, it's
Speaker 4: we're bringing something over. And they were like, oh wow,
Speaker 4: the Rolling Stones or something. It's like it's wrestling and
Speaker 4: this and this. Chris Pool was like, Alan Edwards is
Speaker 4: like what the hell is this? And but Chris Poole
Speaker 4: was like, oh, my son is obsessed with wrestling, Like
Speaker 4: I know them all, Like I'm constantly subjected to it.
Speaker 4: On Sky. You know, so he took over the you know,
Speaker 4: being involved in that, and he was sort of a
Speaker 4: big champion of that, and you know, we talked to
Speaker 4: him as well as part of the book, and yeah,
Speaker 4: did they were I guess they were not surprised that
Speaker 4: Vince did Wembley. I wanted to do Wembley, but I
Speaker 4: don't know if they're entirely convinced that he could do it,
Speaker 4: but obviously it was no problem whatsoever.
Speaker 2: That's great color, yeah, because it is kind of a well,
Speaker 2: it's such a huge show and loom so large for
Speaker 2: any fan of the time, UK, US, wherever you may
Speaker 2: have been that Summer Slam ninety two show. It is
Speaker 2: kind of amazing that they pulled it off in that
Speaker 2: kind of a stadium at a time when they couldn't
Speaker 2: even reliably sell out Madison Square Garden back in the
Speaker 2: United States. So we watched that with wonder and I did.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've gotten into this with with
Speaker 2: Harvey or any others, but you know, aw being able
Speaker 2: to do Wembley twice and they're going to do it
Speaker 2: again next year was definitely an eyebrow razer to me
Speaker 2: because I would figure that they would still have WW.
Speaker 2: You would still have the warm line to Wembley, even
Speaker 2: though you know as many times as they've been to
Speaker 2: the UK in Summer Slam nineteen ninety two, they've never
Speaker 2: gone back there. Do you have any sense of how
Speaker 2: AW was able to kind of get themselves into position
Speaker 2: with with Wembley Stadium that was such a huge coupe
Speaker 2: for them, and I would imagine if WW could, they
Speaker 2: would have stopped it.
Speaker 4: I think with Wembley it's a difficult stadium to run
Speaker 4: because of the weather, you know, so it's an open
Speaker 4: air stadium and certainly you know it's a different Wembley
Speaker 4: now than it was in ninety two. Minds you know
Speaker 4: they knocked it down and rebuilt it, but it's an
Speaker 4: open air stadium and the British weather is unpredictable, and right, Vince,
Speaker 4: certainly when he was in Church, isn't a big fan
Speaker 4: of unpredictable. And actually in the it's in the book.
Speaker 4: They actually secretly and I didn't realize this until I
Speaker 4: was researching the book, had the next day booked as
Speaker 4: well in case it rained, even though it's August time,
Speaker 4: peak of British summer. I can assure you that does
Speaker 4: not matter. It can rain and it does.
Speaker 3: Isn't it ironic that a guy like you said, Vince
Speaker 3: like he needs predictability, but here's a guy who is
Speaker 3: known for his unpredictable nature and changing his mind all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the irony isn't it is?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Is it hilarious?
Speaker 4: But they did have, like I say, the next day booked.
Speaker 4: And that's actually why it was shown on tape delay
Speaker 4: rather than than air in live is because not just
Speaker 4: because of the time difference that that wasn't a huge concern.
Speaker 4: It was in case they had to do it the
Speaker 4: next day, you know. They they were worried about that,
Speaker 4: the potential of the rain. But as for a w
Speaker 4: I mean there's I don't think w is overly concerned
Speaker 4: because there's other stadiums over here that they can run,
Speaker 4: and some of them, quite frankly, are probably better. Like
Speaker 4: there's there's another one in London called the Tottenham Hotspurs Stadium,
Speaker 4: which is a brand new stadium. It's where it's where
Speaker 4: all your big sort of stars will now go and perform,
Speaker 4: sure sometimes ahead of Wembley, partly because it's a little
Speaker 4: bit cheaper to run as well, but it's just a better,
Speaker 4: more modern stadium. And we also need to remember that
Speaker 4: Tony kan is the own's Fulham Football clubs, right, which
Speaker 4: is based in London, and so he has connections Wembley
Speaker 4: is I believe it's owned by the Football Association over here,
Speaker 4: so he's got going to have connections via that route,
Speaker 4: you know, from in a non wrestling perspective. And plus,
Speaker 4: it's like any building, anyone can book it, you just
Speaker 4: have to pay the fee, and WWE are not doing that.
Speaker 4: WWE are getting paid by cities to run which is
Speaker 4: completely different. So I'm Wembley and London are not going
Speaker 4: to pay WWE the amount of money that they want
Speaker 4: for like a rest in or whatever it might be.
Speaker 4: And aw were quite happy to just go, look, we'll
Speaker 4: just pay the building fee and and run the run
Speaker 4: the show. And obviously it makes them. It's worth it
Speaker 4: for a w as a you know, less established identity
Speaker 4: to do that because it makes them look good. It's,
Speaker 4: you know, it's a perception thing, isn't it. If you
Speaker 4: run Wembley Stadium, it's huge And obviously it was huge
Speaker 4: for them, so he doesn't really need that anymore, and
Speaker 4: it very much would just be giving a nod to
Speaker 4: nostalgia for people, you know, fans like me who remember
Speaker 4: ninety ninety two, and they don't really care about that,
Speaker 4: if I'm honest, they don't. What they care about is
Speaker 4: the making money and being paid to do these you know,
Speaker 4: big p L shows that they do.
Speaker 2: Now, that's definitely a shift, and I wonder, you know,
Speaker 2: I remember when they had when they announced the Wembley
Speaker 2: Show and they had John Cena go on the ring
Speaker 2: at the Money in the Bank Show and tease people
Speaker 2: that wrestle Meani would come to Wembley. And then they
Speaker 2: took it away from New Orleans because Vegas was willing
Speaker 2: to pay up. And now they're going to Saudi because
Speaker 2: no one can match that that whatever that check is
Speaker 2: going to look like. Do you think we'll ever get out.
Speaker 4: Years, Yeah, it will. If not, it'll it'll go to
Speaker 4: these other you know, rich nations who are willing to
Speaker 4: pay for it for whatever, you know, reasons, political reasons
Speaker 4: that they have wanted to do it, and I can't
Speaker 4: see it. I think logistically it's quite difficult to do
Speaker 4: it over here because you've got to think it's you've
Speaker 4: got to get not only the wrestlers, but also the crew,
Speaker 4: which obviously they do for twours, but WrestleMania is a
Speaker 4: bit different and it's a lot bigger, and then you've got,
Speaker 4: you know, all the the other buildings around WrestleMania that
Speaker 4: you're gonna need for Rahm SmackDown, and logistically it's quite
Speaker 4: tricky I think for them to do that, and I
Speaker 4: think London would pay for it, but not the money
Speaker 4: that they're looking for. So I'd be shocked if WrestleMania
Speaker 4: ever came to London unless they do what I think
Speaker 4: they are going to do, which has run multiple WrestleManias
Speaker 4: a year. Oh God, WrestleMania Europe, WrestleMania, Saudi WrestleMania US.
Speaker 4: You know you're looking forward to that to be surprised me.
Speaker 3: Well, honestly, I'm kind of thinking that that that next
Speaker 3: year is going to be the last WrestleMania forever and
Speaker 3: from now on it's just going to be Saudi Mania.
Speaker 4: A good chance. What a business.
Speaker 2: So when you when they did that tease with Sina
Speaker 2: and money in the bank, where did your head go
Speaker 2: to as to where they might do it if they
Speaker 2: did bring it to London?
Speaker 4: What stadium? Oh? I just thought they were blowing smoke.
Speaker 4: I didn't think for a second they were going to
Speaker 4: do it. And that's a.
Speaker 2: Bad thing to get those people that excited. And then yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a bad idea.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they like to have something at the PLS. Now,
Speaker 4: Like if I don't know if I'm sure you guys
Speaker 4: have watched the the Unreal series that they did and
Speaker 4: and I think Nick can't say something there about you know,
Speaker 4: they want something to make it matter. It's something along
Speaker 4: those lines. It was the one in Toronto with the
Speaker 4: rock and like what can we do to make it memorable?
Speaker 4: And all this kind of stuff, and they always want
Speaker 4: something like that, some hook, and I think that's just
Speaker 4: what that was. It's like, oh, he's John Cena and
Speaker 4: announced and he's going to promise you all this stuff
Speaker 4: and you know everyone's going to rah rah for John
Speaker 4: Cena and wow, brilliant do to me and get some
Speaker 4: great headlines.
Speaker 2: And but I'm pretty sure it was right after a
Speaker 2: w would announced they were going to Wembley that they
Speaker 2: did that they were regotten too.
Speaker 4: That that was my recollection. That's the game, isn't it.
Speaker 4: That's always been the game? Doesn't that used to be
Speaker 4: Vince's game and you know Paula vexl learnt very well.
Speaker 2: Yes he did in any ways, So it's great to
Speaker 2: get that insight in the book Titan Shrinking into you
Speaker 2: know what some of the promoter types in the UK
Speaker 2: thought about bringing Summer Slam there. We all remember that
Speaker 2: show so fondly in the States, let alone to be
Speaker 2: to be in England. I mean, where were you at
Speaker 2: at the time, James, Were you trying to get in?
Speaker 2: Were you too small to even consider going? What was
Speaker 2: it like in ninety two?
Speaker 4: So in ninety two, I'd have been eight years old
Speaker 4: and I was very much super fan. But by the
Speaker 4: time I because news traveled slow right back in the day,
Speaker 4: and I live quite a long way outside of London
Speaker 4: as well, about four hours away from London, so which
Speaker 4: I know in the US is nothing, but in the
Speaker 4: UK that's about as far as you can get, so right,
Speaker 4: you know, it's quite it's quite a distance over here,
Speaker 4: and we don't have great well we didn't certainly have
Speaker 4: great sort of travel networks then. It was quite difficult
Speaker 4: to get to London back then, and because cars weren't
Speaker 4: very good either, they'd break down halfway. Struggle so it
Speaker 4: was hard. But but no, it was never a really
Speaker 4: feasible possibility for me and to go. But in my
Speaker 4: in my school, it was all anyone talked about for
Speaker 4: about three months, you know, as soon as it was announced,
Speaker 4: and it was always are you a breat guy or
Speaker 4: are you a bulldog guy? No one cared. No one
Speaker 4: cared about macho man and warrior. They didn't care whose
Speaker 4: side mister Purfect was on. They didn't care about Camala
Speaker 4: and take it, none of it. They it was are
Speaker 4: you a breat guy or a bulldog? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah that those matches were pretty cold in the States too,
Speaker 2: for what it's worth.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's that's fair. But you know, it was
Speaker 4: like almost like tribal warf. It was kind of like
Speaker 4: which side do you want? And in the playground every
Speaker 4: lunchtime you'd you'd all wrestle, right, you'd have a bottle
Speaker 4: royal on the concrete place ground, which you know was risky,
Speaker 4: and there'd big war like not not real walks. We
Speaker 4: were eight, but you know, it was there was tension
Speaker 4: about like what had happened because everyone at that point,
Speaker 4: no one thought it was you know, predetermined or fake
Speaker 4: or any of the words that people use now, we
Speaker 4: thought it was really this is Brett Verst bulldog And
Speaker 4: I remember kind of sided with a bulldog at first
Speaker 4: until I've got swayed towards Brett and since then, like
Speaker 4: I've Brett's been my my number one guy ever since since. Yes,
Speaker 4: I wasn't thrilled at the result.
Speaker 2: But that's wild that you got swayed towards Brett as
Speaker 2: a brit That that's pretty uh pretty.
Speaker 4: It was pretty split man Like. Honestly, it was even
Speaker 4: in the building that night, there was a lot of
Speaker 4: support for Brett, you know when when you watch it, Yeah,
Speaker 4: he gets a great reaction. Brett's so funnily enough, I
Speaker 4: was just on, I was gonna bring that up. Go ahead. Yeah,
Speaker 4: were with Brett last week with with Kenny with Inside
Speaker 4: the Ropes and and he's still like packed houses, so yeah,
Speaker 4: packed house and the lines for him are huge and
Speaker 4: like he he still has this r about him and
Speaker 4: I think one of my one of the writers in
Speaker 4: the Inside of the Rope magazine said this about Brett
Speaker 4: once is that there was people who were more over
Speaker 4: than Brett, but there was nobody who was over like Brett.
Speaker 4: And it's over here, that's absolutely and Germany as well,
Speaker 4: that's absolutely the case. Brett was huge and people still
Speaker 4: worship the guy as a as a hero and yeah,
Speaker 4: he's he's very much. He very much was the main
Speaker 4: event and he couldn't him and Davy couldn't have been
Speaker 4: anything but the main event on that show. That's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Brett has been doing tours. We just came
Speaker 2: up offic series of tours you guys where he does,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of like these evenings with Brett Hart
Speaker 2: that The Inside the Ropes does so well and when
Speaker 2: he was out there, you know, just just laying down
Speaker 2: the truth as he sees it. A lot of times
Speaker 2: it's received as I think more in the States than
Speaker 2: in the UK frankly and certainly Canada. He's you know,
Speaker 2: Sarah grapes blah blah blah. You see, like you know,
Speaker 2: the Twitter army go to work on him on every
Speaker 2: comment he makes that's negative towards the current regime. Is
Speaker 2: it the flip side in the UK? Are people just
Speaker 2: like Rah Rah everything he says negative about WWE? Or
Speaker 2: is it similar over there where there's people that that
Speaker 2: that that somehow get all worked up when he speaks truth.
Speaker 4: And British people don't really get works up about.
Speaker 2: Things, to be honest in any case. Yeah, that's a general.
Speaker 4: Rule, you know, but certainly not certainly not wrestling things
Speaker 4: to laugh, you know, and have fun. And Brett's Brett's misunderstood,
Speaker 4: I feel, and I will defend him because you know,
Speaker 4: I'm a breck guy. But he's he's not bitter at
Speaker 4: all from from talking to him and being at the
Speaker 4: shows and things like that, He's not bitter at all.
Speaker 4: He he loves his fans, he loves wrestling, he loves
Speaker 4: talking about it. He he knows his audience. So he's
Speaker 4: very much like Jim Connett. And I don't want to
Speaker 4: kill the k fa here, but Jim Connett's one of
Speaker 4: the nicest guys I've ever met in wrestling. The wonderful
Speaker 4: guy couldn't have been more helpful to me when doing
Speaker 4: these books, the first trilogy. And he's always been super supportive,
Speaker 4: super help always willing to sort of share anything and
Speaker 4: everything that he can remember, you know. And but on
Speaker 4: you know, you on YouTube, on his podcast, you'll you'll
Speaker 4: bury people because that's what his audience wants, you know.
Speaker 4: He's so he plays into it a little bit. Now,
Speaker 4: don't get me wrong, I've been chewed out by Jim
Speaker 4: Connette as well, and it was great, amazing, this is fantastic,
Speaker 4: this is he was so cross. But I'll tell you
Speaker 4: what it was. I booked a show and What Culture
Speaker 4: show in the US, and Joey Ryan was on it
Speaker 4: and Jim Cornette was doing commentary. So you can imagine
Speaker 4: there was a combustible element. Jim Cornett was just like,
Speaker 4: I'm not I'm not calling his match. I'm not calling
Speaker 4: the dick flip. I'm like, well, I don't know what
Speaker 4: to tell you, Jim. It's on the card you're in
Speaker 4: the booth to do. And I to tell him. I
Speaker 4: was like, Joey, you can't do the flip. And He's
Speaker 4: like yeah, whatever. He didn't care, you know, but it
Speaker 4: was and Jim's just ran this, I'm on this show
Speaker 4: with this guy. So well, look, I'm not the one.
Speaker 4: I didn't book him. I'm just the I was the booker,
Speaker 4: but I wasn't the money.
Speaker 2: Good luck finding the person who would raise their head
Speaker 2: to say I did with him in the room.
Speaker 4: Well, there's no one willing I can tell you. But
Speaker 4: but like like Jim, like Brett is like that. He's
Speaker 4: very he's really funny, really very Canadian human, like very
Speaker 4: dry humors, and he knows what he's doing. Like people
Speaker 4: will shout out Goldberg and he'll just be like, oh
Speaker 4: that guy, you know, And and he'll always you'll never
Speaker 4: call him Goldberg. He always always full names him, always
Speaker 4: calls him Bill Goldberg, like it's brilliant, honestly, but he's
Speaker 4: doing on purpose. I'm convinced you. And he's like, yeah,
Speaker 4: that time Bill Gilbert is now is in the rain? Now,
Speaker 4: so Bill Gelbert. It's like, yeah, brilliant, Like keep it going.
Speaker 3: For it totally deflates Goldberg when you call him Bill Goldberg.
Speaker 3: It makes them like a complete shot, you know.
Speaker 4: I think that's probably the point, but it was just so.
Speaker 4: But he's so funny, and he's always got like a
Speaker 4: smirk and that glint in his eye when he's yes.
Speaker 4: I mean, I won't I won't ruin what Brett said
Speaker 4: because I'm sure Kenny will put it out on a
Speaker 4: video at some point. But he had some interesting comments
Speaker 4: about Vince and his relationship with Sean Michaels and where
Speaker 4: the nickname Bitoi comes from and things like that. And
Speaker 4: and he was saying it all with just like this
Speaker 4: wicked glint in his eye. He knew what he was doing.
Speaker 4: And he wasn't just like random and Raven and I
Speaker 4: hate everything. It was just he was funny and he
Speaker 4: was playing for laughs, and I think that's what he's
Speaker 4: always doing. To be honest, he's and afterwards said to it, Brett,
Speaker 4: I thought you weren't going to bury anyone who's like, oh,
Speaker 4: I just got to be honest. You know it's fair enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he doesn't want to promise that on the front end.
Speaker 2: My impression, I've talked to him a couple of times,
Speaker 2: and he doesn't want to like come in like he
Speaker 2: doesn't want to be known as someone that every time
Speaker 2: you put a mic in firm him, he's gonna go off.
Speaker 2: But if he reads the room and thinks that it's
Speaker 2: going to like get a pop and he's among friends,
Speaker 2: he'll start going every time.
Speaker 4: He's a worker, thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Now, if Bill Goldberg is something, go ahead, boss, I
Speaker 2: just I was just doing, Oh yeah, the dusty.
Speaker 4: He's a worker. Everyone's a worker.
Speaker 2: The uh so if with Brett, if we're kind of
Speaker 2: sure that he does the Bill Goldberg thing on purpose
Speaker 2: to Needle. Is it the same thing with the Summer Slam.
Speaker 4: And the w CW. Yes, I don't know. I really
Speaker 4: wanted to say him, can you please stop calling it?
Speaker 4: But it's like because he was saying it was all
Speaker 4: a w series, like yeah, when I was in the
Speaker 4: w c W. I it's just like Brett, like it's unnecessary,
Speaker 4: but you don't need that word.
Speaker 1: Wrestling podcast, the wrestling podcast that knows the boys need
Speaker 1: their candy. It's the lapsed fan. He's a lapsed fan
Speaker 1: wrest with Jack and Jo.
Speaker 4: But I don't think I'm the guy to say that
Speaker 4: to him. No, No, I don't want to be that guy.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I actually like that he says it because it's a thing.
Speaker 2: But I always wondered if if he keeps doing it
Speaker 2: for the reasons he keeps saying Bill.
Speaker 4: Next time Kenny brings him over, I will ask the
Speaker 4: question on your behalf. I'll pass the heat on you. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: You know these assholes from this laps fan? Yeah, someone
Speaker 2: else you talked to for the book, James Again. Titan
Speaker 2: Shrinking is Brian Knighton, who was wrestled as Axel Rotten
Speaker 2: and interesting from him. I mean he uh here of course,
Speaker 2: an East Coast wrestling fan, and he remembers Mel Phillips.
Speaker 2: And not too long ago we were interviewing a guy
Speaker 2: who manages a club we did a live show at
Speaker 2: and he grew up Queens, New York fan Garden remembers
Speaker 2: Mel Phillips cruising through Queens looking for candidates. Okay, and
Speaker 2: and Axel describes something very similar, and that's that's very
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two as it regards like everything that was
Speaker 2: swirling around about WWF, and just as much as the
Speaker 2: steroids scrutiny, this one was sort of like the double whammy.
Speaker 2: It wasn't just the steroids, it was Mel Phillips and
Speaker 2: Terry Garvin and everything else. So I guess as an
Speaker 2: entry into that part of the discussion, can you talk
Speaker 2: about talking to Brian Knighton who's now passed and yeah,
Speaker 2: and that whole part of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, so Brian reached out to me and I
Speaker 4: think it's twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen and asked me
Speaker 4: to write his autobiography with him. So he'd he was
Speaker 4: aware of the Titan books or however many were out
Speaker 4: at that time, and someone had recommended that he speak
Speaker 4: to because you wanted to write a book. And I
Speaker 4: was like, man, like I don't know, like Axl Rotten's autobiography,
Speaker 4: Like I don't what's the story? You know? He was
Speaker 4: kind of do we still be for bit? He was
Speaker 4: he still be for bid? He didn't. He wasn't like
Speaker 4: a big superstar name or anything. I was like, what's
Speaker 4: the story. There's nothing I'm not really interested by. I'll
Speaker 4: talk to him. And and as soon as I talked
Speaker 4: to him, I was like, Wow, this guy might have
Speaker 4: the best autobiography of all time, Like he's his real
Speaker 4: story was unbelowble, like it was just from like the
Speaker 4: stuff he suffered growing up, like his his real human
Speaker 4: story rather than his wrestling story was fascinating. And then
Speaker 4: then his wrestling story was interesting as well, and I
Speaker 4: was just like, man, this guy is unbelievable. And then
Speaker 4: obviously started telling me about the mel Phillips stuff, and so,
Speaker 4: you know, we started his autobiography and it's it's probably
Speaker 4: like the first couple of chapters were done, and I
Speaker 4: remember sending him the first chapter and he just cried
Speaker 4: like he was just so happy to see like his
Speaker 4: his life, like finally on the page is something he'd
Speaker 4: always wanted to do. And I think it made him
Speaker 4: feel like he mattered and was important and he contributed something,
Speaker 4: and you know, and he was so excited for people
Speaker 4: to finally learn about his life and hopefully help people,
Speaker 4: because the book was gonna be called Wrestling with Heroin
Speaker 4: and it was about his addiction and how he'd overcome it,
Speaker 4: or so he claimed. And then literally I talked to
Speaker 4: him one night and he was he was in a
Speaker 4: pretty bad way and he and I still at the
Speaker 4: audio from it. It's really it's really rough. Actually, but
Speaker 4: obviously we used to record everything for the for the book,
Speaker 4: and I said, he's like, oh, man, like, I hope
Speaker 4: we get this book done sooner. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, maybe a couple of months. He's like, oh,
Speaker 4: it's something like, I hope I'm still alive. I was like,
Speaker 4: be alive in four months and he's like, I may
Speaker 4: I be aliveing in four days? And then four days
Speaker 4: later I got a text from from doctor Tom and said,
Speaker 4: have you heard about Brian? And and yeah, he obviously died,
Speaker 4: So that was pretty Yeah, it was it was weird,
Speaker 4: you know, it was weird. And quite distressing at the time,
Speaker 4: but it was like, man, it's a shame, like obviously
Speaker 4: I can't you know, it's a shame for him, not
Speaker 4: for me, Like it was a shame for him that
Speaker 4: that we couldn't finish this book and to get his story.
Speaker 4: It was something you wanted to do so much, and
Speaker 4: as it's such a shame of waste all that stuff
Speaker 4: because he wanted people to know it. And when I
Speaker 4: started around this book, I was like, man, I could
Speaker 4: probably use some of that stuff he said in here,
Speaker 4: because it I know he'd want that. You know, I
Speaker 4: knew him well enough by that point to know that
Speaker 4: he'd want that. And I did sort of wrestle with
Speaker 4: it a little bit myself because it was like, well,
Speaker 4: and I kind of profited on a guy who's passed away,
Speaker 4: you know, and it's it's a bit of a murky area,
Speaker 4: I felt. But but I thought, no, he wanted people
Speaker 4: to know that story, like he specifically wanted it out there,
Speaker 4: and so I'll put it in there as almost a
Speaker 4: tribute to him, which is, you know, what he's mentioned
Speaker 4: in the acknowledgements and such. But yeah, it was a
Speaker 4: like he was really upset when he when he was
Speaker 4: telling that story, it was obviously very like harrowing and
Speaker 4: for him to sort of relive it and what he
Speaker 4: was telling me about, you know, him going there with
Speaker 4: his friends and melt taking an interest in him real quick,
Speaker 4: and then you know, rest've seen him wrestling all these
Speaker 4: kids and all that kind of thing. And and Brian
Speaker 4: was pretty sure with that people knew what was going on.
Speaker 4: And I think it's become quite clear that people suspected
Speaker 4: what was going on. But it's you know, I've been
Speaker 4: in wrestling lockerrow. I used to be a wrestler in
Speaker 4: the UK for ten years, so like, I've been around
Speaker 4: a lot of locker rooms, and I think it's it's
Speaker 4: a little bit unfair to blame the boys for not
Speaker 4: doing anything about it, because you don't really know what's
Speaker 4: going on in people's business. You know, you don't know
Speaker 4: who's doing what likes, something dodgy going on, maybe those
Speaker 4: kids are related to now you know, you don't know
Speaker 4: really and and it's not your place. What can you
Speaker 4: do in his office? You lose your job because you
Speaker 4: bring that up. It's it's very difficult morally, I think,
Speaker 4: to know what to do. And I think it'd be
Speaker 4: very different now, but back then I think it was.
Speaker 4: It was quite difficult for the body, and I think
Speaker 4: it's kind of outside out of mind. It's not our problem, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, did anything strike you going through all that?
Speaker 4: James?
Speaker 2: How the WWF handled it at the time, you know
Speaker 2: how it I don't say they got away with it,
Speaker 2: because they took a ton of heat in the meat
Speaker 2: and there was damage that was done as a result
Speaker 2: of that. But you know, really it's hard to point
Speaker 2: to any particular bit of accountability. Of course, Tom Cole
Speaker 2: ended up coming back to work for them as part
Speaker 2: of a settlement. But you took the time to sort
Speaker 2: of revisit the chronology blow by blow as part of
Speaker 2: Titan Shrinking. What's your takeaway.
Speaker 4: It was? I think it was really important to do
Speaker 4: that because there's so much happened in an incredible I
Speaker 4: didn't realize either, Like I knew about all the stories,
Speaker 4: but until I started researching the book, I didn't realize
Speaker 4: just how close together a lot of that stuff was.
Speaker 4: You kind of had the WBF launching on TV, and
Speaker 4: you had WrestleMania, and then in between that you had
Speaker 4: all of this stuff going on all of this scandal.
Speaker 4: There was sex scandals, numerous sex scandals as it was,
Speaker 4: you know, the storoid scandals. And then there was Hulk
Speaker 4: Cohen's cocaine scandal, which was all over the UK tabloid papers.
Speaker 4: I don't know if it made it to the US.
Speaker 2: Really, can you tell? Can you make a quick detour
Speaker 2: and tell us about that one?
Speaker 4: It was? It was basically a story that Whole Cogan
Speaker 4: was a coke addict and he'd been caught, you know,
Speaker 4: taking cocaine with some some high rolling party or something
Speaker 4: I think it was. And you know, it was just
Speaker 4: one of those things that we asked them. I think
Speaker 4: it was a Harvey about Harvey Goldsmith about it or
Speaker 4: one of the PR guys about it, like, you know,
Speaker 4: we're worried about that, like the table, because the British
Speaker 4: tabloids back certainly back then and the Tories for anything,
Speaker 4: they love to destroy heroes. And it was like, right, well,
Speaker 4: let's go after this Americans and wrestling now we don't
Speaker 4: like this, so we're going to go for them. And
Speaker 4: and it was like Whole Cogan cocaine shame and all
Speaker 4: this kind of thing, and and they were like wrestling
Speaker 4: was so big that no one cared. Nobody cared. Most
Speaker 4: of the audience was kids. They didn't read the papers.
Speaker 4: The adults didn't seem to be overly bothered. They just
Speaker 4: sort of celebrity scandal gossip and just dismissed it and
Speaker 4: it and it kind of blew away, Like ironically, it
Speaker 4: blew away. It just disappeared, and it was it was
Speaker 4: just one of many. But that's that's kind of the point.
Speaker 4: There was just so many that it was almost like
Speaker 4: this deluge of press and it's like it's this story
Speaker 4: about this and this, and these lawsuits here and there,
Speaker 4: and you know, it's like, man, there's just so much.
Speaker 4: And I think for for most people, most fans and
Speaker 4: most followers of wrestling, it's very difficult to have a
Speaker 4: coherent timeline of what happened during that period because, like
Speaker 4: I say, it was condensed into like a month or two,
Speaker 4: it was really close together. It was like Vince was
Speaker 4: sort of fighting fires every single day. You know. It
Speaker 4: was you'd go from Arsenio Hall who, then you'd have
Speaker 4: the rumble, and then you'd have Sid trying to leave
Speaker 4: but then to stay, and then you know, the I
Speaker 4: think it was a drug busting. I think it was
Speaker 4: certain Leuis.
Speaker 2: Saint Louis, Yeah, it was, yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the drug was said jack Lands are kind of
Speaker 4: been made aware. I think it was, and you know,
Speaker 4: there was a there was a bunch of stuff like that,
Speaker 4: and it was it's important, I think, to get a
Speaker 4: coherent timeline for this and make it make sense and
Speaker 4: make it clear. And as I was revisiting it, I
Speaker 4: realized that quite incredibly, I think no one cared about
Speaker 4: the sex scandal outside of the sort of shock TV
Speaker 4: shows you know you Donna Hugh and Geraldo Rivera I
Speaker 4: think were too, and no one else cared. No one
Speaker 4: else cared. It was just no there was one more.
Speaker 4: There was one more that Vince was on with with
Speaker 4: Bruno as well, but Larry King, Larry King, that's right, yeah,
Speaker 4: Larry King. And outside of that, like, no one really
Speaker 4: picked up on it, and the FEDS didn't care at all.
Speaker 4: And the reason that's and that's in the book what's
Speaker 4: really highlighted. And there was some really work, great work
Speaker 4: done on this by Dave Bixon span So i'ven cover
Speaker 4: some of this stuff, but what really struck me was
Speaker 4: they went after mel Phillips, the FEDS, but not to
Speaker 4: arrest him and put him in jail, which is what
Speaker 4: they should have done. There's no doubt about it that
Speaker 4: he was guilty. They've got video evidence the FBI of
Speaker 4: mel Phillips being guilty, but they dismissed it as it's
Speaker 4: not enough evidence. Like this, this footage of you know,
Speaker 4: this grown man tickling a kid's feet and wrestling with him.
Speaker 4: It's like and various other you know, very questionable and
Speaker 4: obviously sexual things that were going on. They dismissed it
Speaker 4: as not enough evidence. And the reason for that is
Speaker 4: they were trying to build a case against Vince. They
Speaker 4: absolutely wanted to nail somebody, and Vince was the man
Speaker 4: that they were going to nail, and they went to
Speaker 4: mel Phillips to try and get him to testify against
Speaker 4: the WF and Vince because they wanted someone on the
Speaker 4: WWF side, as they saw it, like on the wrestling side,
Speaker 4: to be on their side to go against the WF.
Speaker 4: And they they knew that WF were paying everybody's lawyers,
Speaker 4: like all of the talent, and that they'd already been
Speaker 4: you know, they'd already been made to be on side
Speaker 4: of the degree and that included people who weren't there anymore,
Speaker 4: like you, like you, Rick Rude, and guys like that.
Speaker 4: You know. It was they wanted somebody who could go
Speaker 4: against that, because they knew the wrestling fraternity would, even
Speaker 4: if they were at odds with each other, would stick
Speaker 4: together against this. And Mel Phillips was going to be
Speaker 4: almost one of their smoking guns. They were going to
Speaker 4: try and get him to testify and agree with what
Speaker 4: they were saying about Vince and corroborate it. And they
Speaker 4: went to visit him and he wasn't there, and then
Speaker 4: they just left it. They didn't bother going back. They said,
Speaker 4: he's not a priority. You know, we've got no interest
Speaker 4: in pursuing him unless you can have used his leverage
Speaker 4: against Vincent, because it's collapsed. So the entire investigation into
Speaker 4: Phillips collapsed and the child sex abuse allegations were completely abandoned.
Speaker 4: And I think it's a disgrace, really, and it's a
Speaker 4: real failure of the legal system that that was the case,
Speaker 4: This obsession with let's take down Vince, you know, which,
Speaker 4: you know, you guys money, taxpayer money, right and maybe
Speaker 4: not you guys at the time, but you know, yeah,
Speaker 4: for sure, cost people money and because of this obsession
Speaker 4: with we've passed this new law, let's nail somebody, and
Speaker 4: they failed because they completely misread the room. And yeah,
Speaker 4: it was and you guys know a lot about obviously
Speaker 4: the trial itself, but I think it's it's pretty bad.
Speaker 4: It's pretty bad what used to what went on back then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's to bring it back to hul Cogan, you know,
Speaker 2: because we're looking so closely at his whole life and times,
Speaker 2: I mean, having already covered this whole saga. You know,
Speaker 2: it's so telling to me that when Hulk was due
Speaker 2: to testify in George of Horrian's trial, which of course
Speaker 2: came three years before Vince's, that the media was excited.
Speaker 2: They were covering this thing as a story of national interest,
Speaker 2: that hul Cogan is going to testify in this doctor
Speaker 2: steroid trial. And when Jerry McDevitt got Hogan out of testifying,
Speaker 2: you couldn't unless you lived in Pennsylvania, where the trial
Speaker 2: took place, You're not gonna find coverage.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: I mean, there were a couple of national networks that
Speaker 2: did cover him being convicted, but the fact that Piper
Speaker 2: was was testifying didn't matter. Anybody the fact that Warrior
Speaker 2: Warrior was in the ninety four to one, but the
Speaker 2: fact that Billy Graham took the stand this big of
Speaker 2: a star as he was all those years. No one
Speaker 2: cared Martel Blair, the others who came up. It was James.
Speaker 2: It was about Hulk Cogan. That's I mean, just as
Speaker 2: much as they wanted Vince, they wanted the star power
Speaker 2: of Hulk Hogan to justify it is newsworthy and worth
Speaker 2: investing resources and covering.
Speaker 4: Hulk Hogan's the draw and Hull Cogan gets the eyes.
Speaker 4: It's just like wrestling the car rooms. Just like wrestling,
Speaker 4: you know, you want the draw to get the media
Speaker 4: and the eyeballs on it and then tell the world
Speaker 4: about it. And if it's just you know, fed's go
Speaker 4: after owner of wrestling promotion. Who cares? You know, at
Speaker 4: that time, people wouldn't have really bad an eyeland. It's like,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, restless taking stereos of course. Yeah. Like it's
Speaker 4: Hull Cogan though, and it's like the superhero and he's
Speaker 4: larger than life and he's genuinely mainstream a popical strike
Speaker 4: on it. When he's involved, people take notice. It's like,
Speaker 4: oh man, this guy is he's been lying to everyone
Speaker 4: and and then all of a sudden. People do love
Speaker 4: a good bandwagon jump, you know, it's and they love
Speaker 4: to tear someone down when they when they reach a peak.
Speaker 4: So Hogan was a was a perfect candidate for that.
Speaker 4: But but obviously Hogan hadn't done anything in terms of
Speaker 4: you know, legality. He just he just took them, you know.
Speaker 4: But Vince they thought was distributing them, or they were
Speaker 4: trying to prove obviously that he was distributing them and such.
Speaker 4: So it was it was difficult to pin anything on Hulk.
Speaker 4: I think he was just kind of used really, But
Speaker 4: obviously he kind of got out of it, didn't he
Speaker 4: having to testify because of and Piper was furious about that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: there's a Horient trial. Yeah. Pipe was furious about that one.
Speaker 4: Because this is in the book as well. And this
Speaker 4: was something I uncovered when I was researching this that
Speaker 4: I didn't realize was Piper was always described in anything
Speaker 4: like cart transcripts and things that I'd read as like
Speaker 4: almost incoherent and almost as if he was drunk right
Speaker 4: when he was in the Zaharian trial. The reason for
Speaker 4: that is I don't know if you guys have heard
Speaker 4: this one. But the reason for that is, yeah, wrestled
Speaker 4: Undertaker on a house show and he intentionally when when
Speaker 4: Taker did the tombstone on him, I think he was
Speaker 4: on the outside and lowered himself so his head legitimately
Speaker 4: smashed into the concrete. Hogan did the same thing.
Speaker 2: Man, the Undertaker was putting people's head through the mat
Speaker 2: without intending to all through nanty one.
Speaker 4: Well, Hogan's was a little bit further away, I would suggest,
Speaker 4: but yeah, Pie, Piper legitimately had got himself knocked silly,
Speaker 4: give himself a concussion so he could be coherent. It's like, man,
Speaker 4: just cafe bit, you know, don't do that. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it was. It was. And Pipe's furious. He's like, well,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm as big a star as Hogan. Well,
Speaker 4: I mean you're not, but you know, I guess what
Speaker 4: you're saying, you know. And he was curious that he's
Speaker 4: he had to go on this trial and Hogan go
Speaker 4: out of it, And yeah, I mean it's uh, it's something,
Speaker 4: isn't it what you can do when you've got a
Speaker 4: powerful layet.
Speaker 2: Does that sound like Piper? Do you jp?
Speaker 3: It sounds I mean listen the guy like the guy
Speaker 3: would compare himself to the Hull cogin and listen, there's
Speaker 3: no doubt about it, you know, in eighty five eighty
Speaker 3: forty five he is he is easily on par with
Speaker 3: Hull Cogan as being the equivalent bad guy. But come on, dude,
Speaker 3: after that, you're nothing compared to Hogan. I'm sorry, You're done.
Speaker 3: You can't. You cannot, you cannot, you cannot possibly possibly
Speaker 3: compare yourself. There's nobody except for Steve Austin and the
Speaker 3: Rock who can compare themselves to Hull Cogan. It's just
Speaker 3: not possible. It's ridiculous. Sorry, Roddy, go fuck yourself.
Speaker 2: It's pretty amazing that that Roddy you know, would have
Speaker 2: ex WWF to exert the legal resources to come up with,
Speaker 2: you know, a reason. Of course, the reason is under seal,
Speaker 2: never to be revealed again, that they convinced the judge
Speaker 2: that Hulk Cogan would be harmed more than he would
Speaker 2: help the prosecution's case if he testified. Yet Piper could
Speaker 2: have made the same exact argument on the differences, they
Speaker 2: didn't have the WWF's homepaid attorney to make that argument
Speaker 2: on his behalf which is so incredible because Hulk's the
Speaker 2: one who turns around and goes to w CW and
Speaker 2: leaves Vincent the lurch in his trial, and by the
Speaker 2: time Vince's trout comes along, Piper's working for them. In
Speaker 2: the ninety four King of the Ring main event. That's
Speaker 2: rest iron.
Speaker 4: It's the whole situation as part of the New Generation,
Speaker 4: no doubt. Well, yeah, quite the New Generation may invent
Speaker 4: that one, wasn't it. It was the responsibility really for
Speaker 4: Hogan being dragged into that was was the Harian's lawyer.
Speaker 4: So there's this really flamboyant lawyer, you know. He was
Speaker 4: like a three piece suit and cowboy boots kind of guy,
Speaker 4: you know, and he was he was very much like
Speaker 4: a wrestling Carnie promoter. This he's called William Costopolis, and
Speaker 4: he loved Spotlight. He loved the spotlight. He thought he
Speaker 4: was on Ali mc biale or something, you know, when
Speaker 4: he was in and he was so he would just
Speaker 4: kind of downplays the orions role and just be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: every one of the wf's using them rather on the
Speaker 4: mother don't participate obviously, referring to the steroids. And that
Speaker 4: was when the reporters pounced in like USA Today ran
Speaker 4: a front page, so like Hulk book from a bottle,
Speaker 4: I think it was. And and that's when Jerry McDevitt
Speaker 4: got on the phone, this the federal judge in the case,
Speaker 4: which is William Judge William Caldwell, and was just like,
Speaker 4: look like the government just wanted there for media attention,
Speaker 4: Like it's going to really hurt his career, it's going
Speaker 4: to be injurious to his career. And Jerry McDevitt has
Speaker 4: a lot of sway, I think it's safe to say,
Speaker 4: especially right, and he obviously got his way and Hogan
Speaker 4: was excused, and I know Phil Mushnick was furious about it.
Speaker 4: I think he says on the on the Vin Stuck
Speaker 4: as well, but he was furious at the time. And
Speaker 4: it was just like, well, why how do you get
Speaker 4: dismissed from testifying? It might hurt you tell the truth.
Speaker 4: It's like, well, he raises an interest in a probably
Speaker 4: good point, probably good point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he said that in the Dark Side episode as
Speaker 2: well about the trial, And yeah, I think that one
Speaker 2: comes down to, as far as I can discern, that
Speaker 2: they were able to convince the judge that anything haul
Speaker 2: Cogan's going to get there and tell you about Zihorian.
Speaker 2: You already have established as as a point of fact,
Speaker 2: and so at that point all you're doing is is
Speaker 2: kind of carding him out, knowing that you can already
Speaker 2: make all the points his testimony would make. It's not
Speaker 2: like he was unique in his association with George and
Speaker 2: Horian among wrestlers. And there's probably some other things. I mean,
Speaker 2: there's clearly there was clearly indications and a lot of
Speaker 2: the filings and stuff we looked at and the contemporaneous
Speaker 2: reporting that they also made some kind of case that
Speaker 2: forcing Halt to talk about his doctor patient relationship with
Speaker 2: George and the Horian would reveal some things medically about
Speaker 2: hul Cogan that would be something that would be an
Speaker 2: jurious to him for the public to know.
Speaker 4: So who knows what that is.
Speaker 3: But I've had my mind maybe maybe maybe because it
Speaker 3: might have exposed that the size of Terry blays Penis
Speaker 3: and hul Cogan's were actually the same size.
Speaker 2: It did come up in a court of law in
Speaker 2: the future.
Speaker 4: You're right about that.
Speaker 2: Really, it did become a question of a lot at
Speaker 2: some point. So James just tell us Hogan. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is such a weird time for him. But you
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in the book talking about
Speaker 2: how he became the star as well on the salad
Speaker 2: days for him coming going through it systematically like this,
Speaker 2: But your anything surprised you to conclude about Hogan that
Speaker 2: you didn't really appreciate on the front end.
Speaker 4: I think it's really surprising how just how much his
Speaker 4: relationship with Vince collapsed after a senior hall that really
Speaker 4: really it's been very injurious to his career. That was,
Speaker 4: you know, and and obviously people are aware of it
Speaker 4: and what he said, and I don't think they're aware
Speaker 4: of what Vince's stunts, and that was, which was very
Speaker 4: much like don't don't say anything, like don't don't deny it,
Speaker 4: like it's going to be obvious. They're going to see
Speaker 4: through that if you have to. He didn't want him
Speaker 4: to do it at all, obviously, But Horgan was very
Speaker 4: I think it's fair to say, ego centric. And Horgan
Speaker 4: knew that his name was getting dragged through the mud,
Speaker 4: and unlike Vince, he wasn't willing to just let it
Speaker 4: slide off. And and kind of hope it goes away.
Speaker 4: At first he wanted to defend himself, and I get that,
Speaker 4: but there's a way to defend yourself and there's a
Speaker 4: way not to defend yourself. And what Hogan did was
Speaker 4: obviously not the way to defend yourself and it was
Speaker 4: a foolish move, and I know obviously Vince was furious.
Speaker 4: And then it immediately stirred the horness nest because everybody
Speaker 4: then who had a vendeta against Vince so against Hogan,
Speaker 4: you know, your Brunos and Billy Grahames and such, were like, Nope,
Speaker 4: we're not standing for this. Yeah, this guy's a liar
Speaker 4: and we're not. It's And for whatever reason, they decided
Speaker 4: that that was the the thing to take him down with,
Speaker 4: and they did, you know, and and Vince and Hogan
Speaker 4: really drifted apart, and I think there was this What
Speaker 4: was really interesting was there was this a roast for Vince.
Speaker 4: I think it was his birthday. It was sort of
Speaker 4: a combination of his birthday and a celebration of how
Speaker 4: long he'd been in the business, which Linda had organized
Speaker 4: secretly for him, and he had a load of guests
Speaker 4: speakers there, including some people who had left and including
Speaker 4: Jesse Ventura who was suing him at the time, and
Speaker 4: even he had enough respect for Vince to see him,
Speaker 4: you know, to see businesses business and go, no, I'll
Speaker 4: be there. And Jesse was there, like I've got the
Speaker 4: invitation actually and without the list of all the speakers
Speaker 4: on and who's going to be there, and Hogan was
Speaker 4: one of them. And like I said, Jesse was there.
Speaker 4: And there's other people, some guys who weren't in WF
Speaker 4: at the time, some comedians things like that as well.
Speaker 4: And Hogan went to the event, but he didn't get
Speaker 4: up and speak and give his you know, glowing abute
Speaker 4: or you know, whatever it was supposed to be. And
Speaker 4: then mean Jane was wandering around with the microphone just
Speaker 4: kind of getting comments from from other people or the
Speaker 4: wrestlers who were there, and he went to Hogan, and
Speaker 4: Hogan just waved him away, wouldn't they anything. It's like
Speaker 4: he's the guy who's been with Vince for the last
Speaker 4: you know, eight years, and they've made millions together, they've
Speaker 4: conquered the world together, they've they've gone global together, and
Speaker 4: they were Vince and Hogan like Hogan was Vince's number
Speaker 4: two really really in many ways, you know, it was
Speaker 4: it was a partnership. One couldn't have existed without the
Speaker 4: other that were symbiotic. And then you have this sort
Speaker 4: of complete collapse of this relationship of you know, this
Speaker 4: power couple, I guess, and they just really weren't working
Speaker 4: well together at that point. We're barely speaking and and
Speaker 4: I think Vince knew that Hogan was a lightning rod
Speaker 4: for controversy. He needs to he couldn't rely on him anymore.
Speaker 4: I think that's what Assenia Hall had proven to him,
Speaker 4: that he can't trust Hogan, and that's why, you know,
Speaker 4: they did the Survivor series switch and they kind of
Speaker 4: devaluing him a little bit by having him get beat
Speaker 4: a little bit more. And then the Rumble thing the
Speaker 4: way that was booked, which it's actually the reason SID
Speaker 4: tried to quit at Royal Rumble ninety two, so, which
Speaker 4: is such a ridiculous and very SID story. But the
Speaker 4: whole Hogan elimination thing and the way it played out
Speaker 4: and Hogan then complaining backstage about it and crying about
Speaker 4: and kicking off with you know, bout the way it's
Speaker 4: been booked was obviously some political you know, to and
Speaker 4: and thrown between Vince and Hogan. It was a power
Speaker 4: play between the two of them, and Sid just saw
Speaker 4: it and was like, I'm not getting involved in this
Speaker 4: ship like I'm He's like, thanks Vince, by m out
Speaker 4: of here, like this is I don't I'm not being involved.
Speaker 4: This is ridiculous. And I don't know why it bothered
Speaker 4: him so much. But obviously he's working with Hogan, I guess,
Speaker 4: so he's he just want to be part of some game,
Speaker 4: and Vince convinced it must stay, you know, through through
Speaker 4: to the WrestleMania and then the European Tour. But and
Speaker 4: then it fell apart as it did. But yeah, it's
Speaker 4: quite interesting that there was all these games going on,
Speaker 4: and you know, but even despite that, Vince still wouldn't
Speaker 4: let Rick Flair beat Hogan because he didn't see it
Speaker 4: as Flair beat in Hogan. He saw it as Rick
Speaker 4: Flair and w c W beating the WF. So because
Speaker 4: he's a contradiction, isn't he Vince. He's so he's it's
Speaker 4: all this crazy stuff going on in Vince's head and
Speaker 4: he doesn't He's like, oh, maybe I will go with Hogan. No,
Speaker 4: actually I hate Hogan. And then we'll do this interview
Speaker 4: that the two of them did, and there's some really
Speaker 4: interesting stuff in there where Hogan talks as Terry bowlea
Speaker 4: very briefly in there, and and Vince kind of forces
Speaker 4: him into retirement, which Hogan was like, oh, it's news
Speaker 4: to me, you know.
Speaker 2: Thank you for the memories, thank you for the inspiration,
Speaker 2: and thank you for whole comania.
Speaker 4: We all remember it. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Terry had to say wrapping up with James Dixon again
Speaker 2: that the book is Titan Shrinking, part of his Titan
Speaker 2: series that you want to check out Boss anything else
Speaker 2: for James.
Speaker 3: No, I just I love, you know, we know so
Speaker 3: much about this this time period, and I love just
Speaker 3: learning these these some little details that I just I
Speaker 3: don't think if we talked about it, it was so
Speaker 3: many years ago, but just kind of even talking about
Speaker 3: the relationship just kind of disintegrating, like there's just some
Speaker 3: some details in there that, uh, again I don't I
Speaker 3: don't think I knew, or if I knew, I'd forgotten
Speaker 3: by now. And so it was a nice reminder. So
Speaker 3: I think that's just absolutely phenomenal. Though those little those
Speaker 3: little tibets of information to me are are everything, and
Speaker 3: they just paint such a better picture of the whole story.
Speaker 4: So well done, Thank you man. I mean that's for
Speaker 4: me with these books, like you say, I love this
Speaker 4: information is out there in some form or of the
Speaker 4: it's about bringing it together and trying to make it
Speaker 4: coherent and trying to make a nice amen tie. You
Speaker 4: know how about that. It's it's a tricky right. You
Speaker 4: guys know this as well as as well as any
Speaker 4: And it's about letting people be able to understand what
Speaker 4: happened and making sense of all the legal talk and
Speaker 4: all the you know, the drug talk and all the
Speaker 4: scandals and newspaper reports and things like that. And and
Speaker 4: for me, it's very much about the minutia. You know,
Speaker 4: everyone knows the big overall story, but what's what's the
Speaker 4: small details, the little things that fill in the blanks
Speaker 4: of the things that don't make sense from what's already
Speaker 4: out there, like the reason Sid left, and there's a
Speaker 4: lot of I won't go into it, but there's a
Speaker 4: lot of different stories. Sid's version, the WF version, and
Speaker 4: the Meltter's version. And then when you sort of piece
Speaker 4: it all together and look at logically and figure out
Speaker 4: as a proper timeline. You you actually see what really
Speaker 4: happened and go, ah, that's what happened. And then you
Speaker 4: speak to a few people and fill in the blanks
Speaker 4: on things and and they're for me, the important part.
Speaker 4: So my favorite part of the book. And again I
Speaker 4: won't go into too which did I don't ruin it,
Speaker 4: but the nails and Vince story is probably the most
Speaker 4: fun I had right in the book, as you can imagine,
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's quite a fun story and story anyway,
Speaker 4: and there's so much, so much bullshit out there about
Speaker 4: that story. That everybody was there, you know, everybody was there,
Speaker 4: like Woodstock, everybody, and they all saw it. They were
Speaker 4: all in the room, right, Oh yeah, I was the
Speaker 4: one in the room who pulled nails off? Is that
Speaker 4: that you weren't You weren't even booked on the show,
Speaker 4: you know, So, Jim Brunzell, what you're talking about? You know? Whoever?
Speaker 4: You know, I might be just burying poor Gym there.
Speaker 4: But you know, there's a bunch of people who claim
Speaker 4: they were there, who weren't there, and some people who were,
Speaker 4: and some people have different perspectives or they've told it
Speaker 4: so many times that they remember it as that, but
Speaker 4: it's not what happened. And I talked to so many
Speaker 4: people and and read and watched so much stuff about
Speaker 4: that to finally piece it together. And then when it
Speaker 4: all came together, its suddenly all of it made sense,
Speaker 4: like from step to step to start to finish, and
Speaker 4: it's like that's the real satisfaction of writing these books
Speaker 4: is being able to finally sort of unearth these little
Speaker 4: things that the little tiny snippets that make it go
Speaker 4: from well, okay, all right, I get it now, I
Speaker 4: get what's going on here. And that's what I'm hoping
Speaker 4: to do because, like I said, there's a million shoots,
Speaker 4: and you know, we've got you know, podcasts like you
Speaker 4: guys who go into so much stuff, and there's you know,
Speaker 4: wrestler podcasts now and we documentaries and you know, live
Speaker 4: toos and everything, books and everything. But it's about piecing
Speaker 4: all that stuff together and making it, you know, one
Speaker 4: coherent story that people can follow. So that's that's the
Speaker 4: fun part of it.
Speaker 2: Doing the work. It's TLF approved, Ladies and Gentlemen, Titan Shrinking.
Speaker 2: Check that out and the rest of the Titan series.
Speaker 2: Friend of the show, Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 2: James appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you guys. Been an absolute pleasure anytime