Speaker 1: Welcome to the program. It is a great honor and privilege.
Speaker 1: You get a man I've known for a long time,
Speaker 1: ran into him in a ton of industry events, but
Speaker 1: got to know a little better over the last weekend
Speaker 1: mister whitetail himself, Larry Wazoom, And this guy has really
Speaker 1: had an incredible impact on the whitetail world in terms
Speaker 1: of inspiring people to take up the hunting and conservation
Speaker 1: of whitetail wild lands and just really helped a lot
Speaker 1: of people, including myself, have a better understanding of the
Speaker 1: majestic game animals. So welcome to the program, Larry.
Speaker 2: Chester, Thank you so very much. I'm not sure I
Speaker 2: can live up to that introduction after that, hold me
Speaker 2: twenty bucks, you got it? I think I owe you more.
Speaker 3: Well, Larry.
Speaker 1: Over the weekend we were talking about like whitetail subspecies,
Speaker 1: and I think for the most part, most hunters in
Speaker 1: America just think of the whitetail just being a whitetail.
Speaker 1: But that is a species. But there are many subspecies
Speaker 1: of white tail. Can you kind of explain what a
Speaker 1: subspecies is?
Speaker 2: The subspecies is essentially the same species that's learned how
Speaker 2: to adapt to certain parameters, certain weather conditions, certain climate conditions,
Speaker 2: if you will, and different types of habitat. Here in Texas,
Speaker 2: we're so very blessed to have a great variety of habitat,
Speaker 2: from the piney woods of East Texas to the Real
Speaker 2: Grand Plains, to the coastal plains, to the central part
Speaker 2: of the state of Texas hill country, even out in
Speaker 2: the far western part of the state and the mountain
Speaker 2: country and then up in the Panattle in North Texas,
Speaker 2: and a lot of those areas are different, and basically
Speaker 2: some of those areas do have different subspecies of white
Speaker 2: tail deer here in Texas. Of course, there are a
Speaker 2: lot of different subspecies. I think. I think someone said
Speaker 2: they're like thirty one subspecies of whitetail deer scattered across
Speaker 2: in North America, and I think we've got probably about
Speaker 2: four or five of those for certain here in Texas.
Speaker 2: But it's just simply an animal that in a regional
Speaker 2: area adapts to those circumstances that it has to live with.
Speaker 2: It creates a subspecies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and that's a great way to explain that,
Speaker 1: you know, because it is a white tail. You know,
Speaker 1: a whitetail from New York can breed with one in Mexico,
Speaker 1: but there are definitely, you know, morphological differences, slight differences
Speaker 1: because of diet, habitat and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: And what really got.
Speaker 1: Me going down this trail, Larry was just looking at
Speaker 1: a map a long time ago, and it had whitetail
Speaker 1: subspecies distribution and it had the Carmen Mountains white tail
Speaker 1: on it in Texas, and it described it as being
Speaker 1: the second smallest subspecies of whitetail, next to the key deer,
Speaker 1: which is a little bitty guy that's a federally in
Speaker 1: endangered species only lives in the southern half of the
Speaker 1: Florida Keys.
Speaker 3: And when I.
Speaker 1: Was talking to you, you got to go hunt these
Speaker 1: farm in Mountain white t tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about that animal and their habitat.
Speaker 2: Basically, there exist in the far western part of Texas
Speaker 2: above the elevation of forty five hundred feet. Now, there's
Speaker 2: some areas that claim they have Carmen Nins's white tail,
Speaker 2: but actually they're the Texas Nins's subspecies. The animal is
Speaker 2: relatively small, as you mentioned, I would almost in a
Speaker 2: lot of instances kind of argue whether they're the smallest
Speaker 2: pretending particularly in certain areas of Texas and New Mexico,
Speaker 2: and they exist primarily in that Big Bend area and
Speaker 2: then down into Mexico. And they were named after the
Speaker 2: Carmen Mountain area down in Mexico's where the subspecies name
Speaker 2: came from. Excuse me, They are the ones that I've hunted,
Speaker 2: and I was very fortunate the first time I got
Speaker 2: a chance to hunt them was back in nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: seventy one down in the Kannati Mountains and was able
Speaker 2: to take a little buck little in terms of antlers.
Speaker 2: He was a pretty good sized for corn. He was
Speaker 2: a six year old deer and intact that deer play
Speaker 2: might have weighed sixty to sixty five pounds in that
Speaker 2: area too. Throughout that western part of the state, they're
Speaker 2: also known as fantails, and the reading they're coffee tails
Speaker 2: is because their tail is actually bigger than the regular
Speaker 2: white tail deer if you will, that we have as
Speaker 2: primary the Texas subspecies, And when it puts that tail
Speaker 2: up and runs away from me, it really looks like
Speaker 2: one of the old time sailing ships of your you know,
Speaker 2: huge flag, And so they're really a truly unique animal.
Speaker 2: Their antlers tend to of course be smaller because of
Speaker 2: the body size being smaller. But again they're found primarily
Speaker 2: in those areas above forty five hundred feet of elevation,
Speaker 2: and I know that over the years there have been
Speaker 2: some people that have claimed there around Del Rio and
Speaker 2: some of those areas that those are Carmens's white tail,
Speaker 2: but they're not. They're not truly the true true Carmens
Speaker 2: species that found in the western part of the state
Speaker 2: and down and make.
Speaker 1: That is uh, that's really cool to be able to,
Speaker 1: you know, think about that because a lot of people
Speaker 1: listening and go, hold on, you got forty five hundred
Speaker 1: ft elevation in Texas.
Speaker 3: Yes, we do. Yes, we actually have higher places than that.
Speaker 1: Yes, in the Davis Mountains, Guadaloupe's and places like that,
Speaker 1: and so that is a that's a really interesting thing
Speaker 1: to think about, that little difference in that area that
Speaker 1: really a lot of people will never even see because
Speaker 1: of the remote nature.
Speaker 2: You know, you're exactly right. And what's interesting about some
Speaker 2: of those areas, particularly like down in the Shinnats, which
Speaker 2: is a mountain range that's right along the Rio Grande
Speaker 2: kind of northwest, probably of the Big Ben National Park.
Speaker 2: In that particular area, at the very highest of those hills,
Speaker 2: mountains whatever you want to call them, they're actually mountain
Speaker 2: because they are well above forty five hundred feet, you'll
Speaker 2: find a little carmenencous white tail species there. Then you'll
Speaker 2: find the mule deer just down below, and then you
Speaker 2: get down in the flats, and also down in the flats,
Speaker 2: you'll there you'll find the Texas subspecies. So in some
Speaker 2: of those areas of West Texas, we actually have two subspecies,
Speaker 2: the white tail deer and the desert mule. Here the
Speaker 2: kruk Ie subspecies all found on the same mountain range,
Speaker 2: starting at the top of the Carmenensis and you kind
Speaker 2: of run into the Texas white tails and a lot
Speaker 2: of times the mute there. They're restricted kind of to
Speaker 2: the flats and also the foothill those mountains.
Speaker 1: Wow, what biodiversity, you know? It is The green world
Speaker 1: likes to talk about biodiversity, but I think a lot
Speaker 1: of times we hunters are the ones who celebrated the
Speaker 1: most by being enamored by my Lord. Is a small
Speaker 1: area here with two subspecies of whitetail and mule deer
Speaker 1: how cool is that.
Speaker 2: It really is where I got familiar or when I
Speaker 2: first learned about the Carmen Mountain white tails as many
Speaker 2: years ago, back in the probably in the nineteen late
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties nineteen six there is an outdoor writer named
Speaker 2: Byron Dalrymple who was originally from Michigan. He was a musician,
Speaker 2: among other things, and he moved to Texas and every
Speaker 2: year he would go out to the area between Alpine
Speaker 2: and Marfa and hunt on what was then a huge
Speaker 2: ranch called the Cattle Gauge. And of course he would
Speaker 2: write about the adventures of that hunt in phases of
Speaker 2: outdoor Life, primarily with other places as well too, and
Speaker 2: he would talk about the little fantails that existed at
Speaker 2: the very tops of those mountains, and then our regular
Speaker 2: white tail O Texas subspecies, but also the desert mutlitary
Speaker 2: that really has kind of got me interested, what got
Speaker 2: me interested in it. And then as a wildypologist, on
Speaker 2: that first hunt, I was able to take my first carmenensus.
Speaker 2: And again one thing I noticed is their tales were
Speaker 2: so much longer. I've heard it said, although I can't
Speaker 2: prove it scientifically that they actually have one more vertebrate
Speaker 2: in their tail, and that's what causes that extension of
Speaker 2: that tale.
Speaker 3: Very well, that's true or not.
Speaker 2: I don't know. There's been some work done in the past.
Speaker 2: I think I made you aware of two monographs that
Speaker 2: were done. One was done down in the Big Ben
Speaker 2: National Park itself, and then the other one was done
Speaker 2: by two professors, Professor Craftsman and doctor Ernie Abels, because
Speaker 2: doctor Abels was one of my professors at Texas A
Speaker 2: and M while I was there going to school for
Speaker 2: wildlife management. And I remember sitting and talking with him
Speaker 2: after I saw those stories and asking him about it,
Speaker 2: and I think that was one of the things that
Speaker 2: kind of created the interest of trying for him to
Speaker 2: try to do more work out there.
Speaker 1: Oh that's great stuff, and learn more about these great animals.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: That's kind of like other than you know, the Grand
Speaker 1: Slam or the finas, you know, the pursuit of the
Speaker 1: North American Wild cheap Carmen Mountain to.
Speaker 3: Be like way up on my list of fun and.
Speaker 1: Stuff now And maybe if you get that, I get
Speaker 1: a skull them out and then get the tail mounted
Speaker 1: out on its own on a plaque or something.
Speaker 3: You know that'd be very Texas right there.
Speaker 2: But it would be I'll tell you because their tails
Speaker 2: of the mentioner huge, their skulls because of their overall
Speaker 2: body size. If you put a Carmen Ensa's skull and
Speaker 2: I wish I still had mine mine, someone somewhere got
Speaker 2: lost in a move or two, particularly back when we
Speaker 2: were doing a bunch of stuff with we had Low
Speaker 2: s Cotta the doors hunting headquarters there in Paris. All
Speaker 2: I had it there for a while. But if you
Speaker 2: were taking Carmen Mountain white tail skull and put it
Speaker 2: next to a South Texas white tail, and I'm talking
Speaker 2: about an animal that will probably field dress one seventy
Speaker 2: ar better. The difference in those skulls is it would
Speaker 2: probably be about two thirds smaller or a third again larger,
Speaker 2: depending on what you know, your perspective, kind of thing,
Speaker 2: which one you're looking at. But their sculpts are quite
Speaker 2: small compared to even our Texas hill country.
Speaker 1: Well, we come back on More Outdoors. We'll talk more
Speaker 1: with Larry Wai Zoom. Welcome back to More Outdoors on
Speaker 1: News Talk five sixty KLVI. This is Chester Moore continuing
Speaker 1: our conversation about whitetail subspecies with Larry Wizooon. Very interesting
Speaker 1: stuff and what got me on this trailer talking with
Speaker 1: you about smaller whitetail was something that happened to me
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and my uncle, Jackie Moore,
Speaker 1: the late Jackie Moore, would tell me several times. I
Speaker 1: remember being hunting on my first hill country deer hunt
Speaker 1: because I lived and I still live in Orange County,
Speaker 1: and I didn't see a deer till I was twelve
Speaker 1: and went to the hill country there word of hardly
Speaker 1: any deer here locally, and I was with my dad
Speaker 1: and my uncle. This one evening, I was hunting my
Speaker 1: uncle and kind of walking out on the main road
Speaker 1: of the ranch, the Winkle Ranch and Old Daily's Atlanta
Speaker 1: out toward the stand. My uncle told me that when
Speaker 1: they hunted in San Saba, they he saw this little
Speaker 1: buck a couple of times that was like he said,
Speaker 1: it was like the size of like a you know,
Speaker 1: a labrador dog hype maybe you're a little smaller and
Speaker 1: had a full eight point rack. Just really stuck with me. Well,
Speaker 1: my uncle passed about thirteen fourteen years ago. At his funeral,
Speaker 1: we're talking about hunting and I said, hey, Dad, did
Speaker 1: Uncle Jackie ever tell you about that deer on the
Speaker 1: San sabage, because oh, I was on the same lease,
Speaker 1: and I saw some of those deer too, and I
Speaker 1: saw when I told you this story, you kind of
Speaker 1: lighting up. And you have an experience from back in
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies of a small deer also in San
Speaker 1: Saba County.
Speaker 2: I do years ago I started to at a wildife
Speaker 2: a dis ease specialists working under contract with the Texas
Speaker 2: Parks and Wilife Department and the Department of in Air Pathology,
Speaker 2: and we were out in San Sabin also in Atlantoak County,
Speaker 2: collecting deer for a variety of purposes, among other lazies,
Speaker 2: nutrition and trying to get general help on some of
Speaker 2: those deer and try to get some baseline information as
Speaker 2: far as blood and all those other kind of good
Speaker 2: things that we were doing at the time. And I
Speaker 2: ended up shooting a deer, a buck standing by himself.
Speaker 2: I noticed he was kind of small standing there and
Speaker 2: shot him. And then when I walked up to him,
Speaker 2: that's when I realized that this dear, it was about
Speaker 2: the size as you mentioned, like a Collie dog or
Speaker 2: a retriever and full body size, he would have not
Speaker 2: weighed fifty maybe somewhere between fifty and sixty pounds. Back
Speaker 2: then I used to picking up a lot of fifty pounds,
Speaker 2: and this one felt no heavier at all than that one.
Speaker 2: We ended up taking all kinds of tissues from him,
Speaker 2: and it was a regular white tail deer. But he
Speaker 2: was just one of those deer that for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: maybe a dwarf version of one, or for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: greatly reduced size. The one too where he reminded me
Speaker 2: very much later when I was able to take or
Speaker 2: not that much later, when I took my first carmon
Speaker 2: Mountain whitetail in size, they were pretty darn similar.
Speaker 1: That's intriguing, Like I've heard this story in my whole life,
Speaker 1: and you know, my dad saw him, my uncle Sam.
Speaker 1: And then when I did a little write up on
Speaker 1: this for Texas Fishing Games, someone emailed me from Saba
Speaker 1: that's been seeing one the last three years and so
Speaker 1: in sin Saba County.
Speaker 3: So from a.
Speaker 1: Biologist perspective, is it possible that it could be some
Speaker 1: that have like some kind of a dwarfism or something
Speaker 1: that gets passed on in the little pockets.
Speaker 2: You know, it certainly could be because you look at
Speaker 2: the white tailed are and we're talking about subspecies as
Speaker 2: well too. A lot of times it is somewhat of
Speaker 2: an isolated area, but sometimes two. You know, strange things
Speaker 2: happen in nature, and even like within humans, there is
Speaker 2: that opportunity with the right connection of genes coming together,
Speaker 2: chromosomes coming together, and all that kind of stuff where
Speaker 2: people don't grow to the normal height of others, and
Speaker 2: so I suspect it's something very similar to that. I
Speaker 2: don't really think it's a subspecies.
Speaker 3: I think just.
Speaker 2: Maybe in an area. You know, in breeding can do,
Speaker 2: or very intensive line breeding can do all kinds of things.
Speaker 2: Going back to looking at looking at some of the
Speaker 2: dog the different breeds of dogs, you know there'll be
Speaker 2: a three to and you've got a miniature one, and
Speaker 2: you've got and if you get the right combinations, you
Speaker 2: know you can reproduce those. And same thing like with
Speaker 2: with looking at Herford cattle and Angus cattle years ago,
Speaker 2: and they were very intensively you know, lane breeding. All
Speaker 2: of a sudden they started having dwarf not only dwarf calves,
Speaker 2: but that never really grew. So I suspect something along
Speaker 2: those lines gonna happen. You know, those populations way back
Speaker 2: when we're market hunting for the market quite a bit
Speaker 2: and people lived off of venison. I mean that didn't
Speaker 2: have anything else. You know, there's take a deer SA
Speaker 2: could have reduced that population to a relatively small number.
Speaker 2: And because of that, there may have been some very
Speaker 2: intensive of inbreeding or line breeding if you will, could
Speaker 2: have produced that and could produce that kind of deer.
Speaker 3: No, it's interesting stuff. I just made my day.
Speaker 1: It's like, all of a sudden, like a mystery if
Speaker 1: my whole life has been verified. So that's the kind
Speaker 1: of thing I live for as a journalist of all
Speaker 1: things wildlife, fishing and hunting.
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, cool story.
Speaker 1: But you know, going along with this idea of subspecies,
Speaker 1: I live here on the Texas Gulf Coast. I live
Speaker 1: in Orange County here and not directly on the coast,
Speaker 1: but Sabine Lake, our northernmost bay system, is here, and
Speaker 1: I'm only forty minutes from the Gulf itself, and the
Speaker 1: subspecies that here is the Avery Island whitetail. And these
Speaker 1: guys go up through like maybe up in a Newton
Speaker 1: Jasper County down to Matagorda all the way across toward
Speaker 1: Avery Island in Louisiana over toward like the a Chapelaya Basin.
Speaker 1: And have you ever had any experience hunting whitetail along
Speaker 1: that part of the coast.
Speaker 2: I have kind of on the on the lower end
Speaker 2: of that. I've taken several deer in that area. And
Speaker 2: one of the things that I want to ask you
Speaker 2: about when is the when does the breeding season occur
Speaker 2: in your area?
Speaker 1: All right, that is a great question because it's early,
Speaker 1: so there are deer right along the coastal area and
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of deer like done in Jefferson
Speaker 1: County on the coast on that little pocket, it's just
Speaker 1: so marshy. There's some and those suckers will rut like
Speaker 1: in September, the middle of September.
Speaker 2: Yes, sir, there is an area on the on the
Speaker 2: lower end of that Avery Alven whitetail there where we've
Speaker 2: seen bucks chasing does at the third week in August. Wow,
Speaker 2: you know me. And that's one of the readings I
Speaker 2: ask you went there because that particular subspecies generally has
Speaker 2: a tendency to rut it's probably the earliest rut that
Speaker 2: we have in Texas of our Texas deer. Yeah, interesting
Speaker 2: about the reading the ruta. The reading season occurs when
Speaker 2: it does is so that two hundred and thirty days
Speaker 2: later massa manus. Those funds are born at the most
Speaker 2: opportune time as far as nutrition is concerned. So you know,
Speaker 2: if you go back probably to eons, go to maybe
Speaker 2: as long until we introduced agriculture into that area, those
Speaker 2: funds were being born at a certain time. And there
Speaker 2: were two parameters that came into play with peak fawning
Speaker 2: times in Texas, one of course being the ideal time
Speaker 2: for nutrition. The second thing was is because the number
Speaker 2: of screwworm flies that we used to have many many
Speaker 2: years ago, if those funds, regardless where they were in Texas,
Speaker 2: were not born pretty much in about a two week period,
Speaker 2: the chances of their survival was extremely low because just
Speaker 2: about time that naval cord was about to fall off,
Speaker 2: the screw worm fly would lay eggs and that pupas
Speaker 2: that developed, would essentially just eat that animal from inside out.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until back in the late nineteen sixties
Speaker 2: that they kind of more or less eradicated or I
Speaker 2: guess they did eradicate the screw and fly here in Texas,
Speaker 2: and so that started making a few different changes. But
Speaker 2: again going back to that Avery Allen white tail, they
Speaker 2: were born, they had bringing through the occurred, it did,
Speaker 2: so they were born at the most opportunity time. But
Speaker 2: also I'm sure coming into play was a screwing worm
Speaker 2: situation that we had back until about the middle nineteen sixties.
Speaker 3: Very interesting.
Speaker 1: And the reason I said, like around September fifteenth because
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I encountered on this about
Speaker 1: this early what I was teal hunting, and it was
Speaker 1: toward the middle of teal season. I'm looking out there
Speaker 1: south of Winnie, Texas, Yes, and like we're in the
Speaker 1: blind and there's a buck chasing a dough Like, whoa
Speaker 1: hold on, man, PayPal, you're a little bit early, aren't you.
Speaker 1: But I looked around I saw that, you know, along
Speaker 1: the Texas coast had some of the earliest ruts in America,
Speaker 1: which is and that's really interesting about like that prime
Speaker 1: time for you know, having the fawns and fawn survival
Speaker 1: in that window, so really interesting stuff. And a lot
Speaker 1: of these little bucks down here in this region, like
Speaker 1: I've seen more in the last couple of years over
Speaker 1: on the Louisiana side, and they have real baskety type racks,
Speaker 1: like little baskety type thick ant but real baskety type racks.
Speaker 1: But they really live in some dense like those shineer areas,
Speaker 1: like they're covered that they do have in those areas
Speaker 1: is really dense cover, so it makes sense kind of
Speaker 1: have a little baskety rack to get through that.
Speaker 2: You're exactly right, and to a great extent, I think
Speaker 2: that somewhat can is what you mentioned there. The type
Speaker 2: of habitat and type of terrain and type of vegetation
Speaker 2: they live in. That's, to me is one of the
Speaker 2: great reasons why you do have those type type racks
Speaker 2: as opposed to with because if you had a bucket,
Speaker 2: you know, on one of those deer there and he's
Speaker 2: trying to run through what he has to run through,
Speaker 2: and he's got a twenty inch spread, that probably wouldn't
Speaker 2: go very well. Yeah, this way, those those antlers are
Speaker 2: about here with maybe a little bit outside at the
Speaker 2: greatest outside of the ears, so there's always it's like
Speaker 2: he's got he's got a measure there that he can
Speaker 2: run through kind of thing, you knowing that he's not
Speaker 2: going to get hung up.
Speaker 1: So come back on More those will talk more white
Speaker 1: Tails with Larry bai Zoom Welcome back to More Outdoors
Speaker 1: on News Talk five sixty klv I. Such an honor
Speaker 1: and privilege of Larry Wyzoom on the program, one of
Speaker 1: the most widely known respected deer experts on the planet,
Speaker 1: talking everything from whitetail subspecies that is unusual white tails,
Speaker 1: and this part of the conversation was one of my
Speaker 1: absolute favorites talking with Larry Wyzoom.
Speaker 2: I suspect Mother Nature has selected over the years for
Speaker 2: those kind of racks as opposed to anything with any
Speaker 2: great amount.
Speaker 3: Of whip neat neat animals.
Speaker 1: Now we have the course the Texas whitetail, which is
Speaker 1: very widely distributed, and if I'm correct, that would dip
Speaker 1: down into South Texas and go up through the Edwards
Speaker 1: Plateau and all the way up toward North Tech.
Speaker 2: Different food conditions, so body sizes are going to be
Speaker 2: a little bit different, even coloration is going to be
Speaker 2: a little bit different from some instrums. But then you
Speaker 2: also go back and you look at the fact that
Speaker 2: back in the nineteen fifties sixties, there were a tremendous
Speaker 2: number of deer mood sure, oh my gosh, out of
Speaker 2: Arandas National Park area, the King Ranch Area and other
Speaker 2: parks that were scattered then or reintroduced to different parts
Speaker 2: of Texas. So you know, now we probably have a
Speaker 2: have a Texas deer that that's kind of a combination
Speaker 2: of a bunch of subspecies.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Probably, So I don't know if any of those, like
Speaker 1: you know, Ransas deer could survive because of that, because
Speaker 1: they know what it's like in the marsh. But if
Speaker 1: you took the vice versa and put one of those
Speaker 1: Kansas deer down in our marsh in twenty four hours,
Speaker 1: they'd be suck dry of blood. They wouldn't They wouldn't
Speaker 1: know how to hang down there.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, uh, you know, you talk about adaptations. You know,
Speaker 1: if you took them out of the Arandas refuse, that's
Speaker 1: a tough deer that can hang with stuff. Like going
Speaker 1: to the hill country is like a break for them.
Speaker 1: Thank you, we got out of the marsh, you know, thanks.
Speaker 2: They were finally dry.
Speaker 1: Exactly, But you mentioned all but you know, all that
Speaker 1: different terrain we mentioned biodiversity with the habitat even with
Speaker 1: them like the Edwards Plateau. You take around Lanto and
Speaker 1: you got that kind of rolling you know, hills and
Speaker 1: the beautiful like limestone streams. Then you go out to
Speaker 1: the southwestern tier I love around Barksdale and camp Wood
Speaker 1: and you got pretty high you know, hills and peaks,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of difference in that area of
Speaker 1: different adaptations on these animals. But on a free range
Speaker 1: white tail in the hill coruntry, Larry, what do you
Speaker 1: think would be like the average hoof weight of a
Speaker 1: buck and a dough.
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, going back and again, it depends so
Speaker 2: much for the so much management going on. I'm done
Speaker 2: backer good management in terms of food. But me the
Speaker 2: average more or less Texas Hill country deer mike on
Speaker 2: the hoof on a on a buck the one thirty
Speaker 2: five to you know, probably maybe a little bit more,
Speaker 2: a little bit less in some areas. Generally a deer
Speaker 2: like that's gonna field dress one hundred to one hundred and
Speaker 2: five hundred and ten pounds even figured about thirty pounds,
Speaker 2: so maybe a little bit bigger the doze. I would
Speaker 2: say probably most of the doze in that area will
Speaker 2: probably weigh somewhere between sixty and seventy pounds on the hoof.
Speaker 1: And I tell you what, when you go down into
Speaker 1: South Texas, it doesn't take long for some of those
Speaker 1: deer to get quite a bit larger.
Speaker 2: You're exactly right. You know, that was around around long time,
Speaker 2: going backward when years ago we had the web county
Speaker 2: check stations when we were trying to determine what was
Speaker 2: going on, and there were times back there that a
Speaker 2: lot of those bucks that we weighed, they probably would
Speaker 2: have field dressed one twenty five to one thirty one
Speaker 2: thirty five. So we're talking about you know, on the
Speaker 2: hoof when maybe one fifty to one sixty one seventy
Speaker 2: maybe at the most. And yet if you look at
Speaker 2: what's happened today since we've reduced the population somewhat, you know,
Speaker 2: shot more dose, given some of these bucks too opportunity
Speaker 2: to grow a little bit, get some age on them,
Speaker 2: it's not uncommon to for us to take an animal
Speaker 2: that will field dress buck mature buck that's one seventy
Speaker 2: five to one.
Speaker 3: Eighty or better.
Speaker 2: Wow. What's interesting about all this is there's a natural
Speaker 2: rule called Bergman's rule that within any species starting south
Speaker 2: and going north, the farther north you go, the larger
Speaker 2: the bodies are. And that simply has to do with
Speaker 2: being able to get rid of heat or to retain warmth,
Speaker 2: you know, as you go farther north. And of course
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons you have the you get
Speaker 2: it into Canada, and in some of those areas it's
Speaker 2: you know, you shot a buckets weighs less than two
Speaker 2: hundred pounds field dressed. You know, they go, oh, you
Speaker 2: shot a baby kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, with Alberta in place like that.
Speaker 2: Yes, sure, exactly. But again here in Texas, with the
Speaker 2: management that we've done, going back and looking at the
Speaker 2: deer herd maybe from the nineteen seventies to as a
Speaker 2: whole across the state of Texas, we've put a lot
Speaker 2: of pounds on the end of visual animals over the
Speaker 2: years simply because of the fact of the nutrition available
Speaker 2: to them. And a lot of these places now back
Speaker 2: well back then, a lot of the we had the
Speaker 2: sheep and goat all over the central part of the
Speaker 2: state of Texas, and they were competing with the white
Speaker 2: tail there and when they did away with the sheep
Speaker 2: and woolair, mohair and sentive. A few years ago, a
Speaker 2: lot of those folks that were previously sheep and goat
Speaker 2: ranchers went back to running cattle, and so all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, there was a whole lot more food available.
Speaker 2: And so we've really kind of increased the overall size
Speaker 2: just in the last several years, just through good management
Speaker 2: and making nutrition available on a daily basis throughout the year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a great point, because that lifts that
Speaker 1: management that hunters and hunter conservationists and ranchers put on
Speaker 1: the ground not only lifts the health of the white tail,
Speaker 1: but every other critter out there as well.
Speaker 2: You know, you're exactly right, And that's the point that's
Speaker 2: so very often just simply overlooked that I've been involved
Speaker 2: with management programs for everything from desert big horn sheep.
Speaker 2: I know you're doing a bunch of things with desert
Speaker 2: big horns now and with mew deer and whitetails, turkeys, quail,
Speaker 2: you know, all the different game species. But one of
Speaker 2: the things that I was able to do over the years,
Speaker 2: particularly years ago, is when I got called in to
Speaker 2: make recommendations, I would do a baseline on what vegetation
Speaker 2: was on that property and potentially what animals I could
Speaker 2: find there, and then we set up a good management
Speaker 2: program that dealt with everything from the ground on up,
Speaker 2: including the livestock operation, including the hunting operation, habitat improvements,
Speaker 2: and all those kinds of things. And as we try
Speaker 2: to improve the habitat to create a healthy herd of
Speaker 2: white tailed deer or flock of turkeys or coves of
Speaker 2: quail or whatever, one of the things that we found
Speaker 2: is that we greatly increase the diversity of the plant
Speaker 2: that we're there. And in process of that, oh, guess what,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, now we start having all kinds
Speaker 2: of little bu ugs and grasshoppers and more ground more songbirds.
Speaker 2: As a lot of times, when we set up these
Speaker 2: management programs for quote unquote targeted game species, they'll benefit
Speaker 2: a little habitat benefits tremendously and as a result, all
Speaker 2: the other wildlife that's there. And that concludes if you
Speaker 2: want to include all the little grounds in inks and
Speaker 2: linards and snakes and frogs and toads, and you know,
Speaker 2: you ground squirrelds, and you name the species or even
Speaker 2: you know, some of the almost microscopic things that live
Speaker 2: in the soil. Because we've increased it, everything does better.
Speaker 2: And so it's one of the main reasons to me
Speaker 2: that that hunting is so very important. I made a
Speaker 2: statement not too long ago that conservation promotes life. Preservation
Speaker 2: kills when you try to preserve something, you're trying to
Speaker 2: preserve generally, well, let's preserve the real Grand Prairie. You know,
Speaker 2: if we do that, we're going to have a limited
Speaker 2: number of species plant and animal. Now, if we conserve,
Speaker 2: which means the wise use of you know, we're going
Speaker 2: to create some diversity. And when we do that again,
Speaker 2: there'll be more different species of plants there and more wildlife.
Speaker 2: And that includes everything from insects to merge to reptiles,
Speaker 2: to amphibians to fish, you know, the terrestrial of the
Speaker 2: wildlife kind of thing.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of people like we have marsh
Speaker 1: fires here are controlled burning in this part of the
Speaker 1: world is a marsh fire. Everyone's used to it, but
Speaker 1: most people don't know what that's about. You know, someone
Speaker 1: who waterfowl hunts, you know, when they when they clear
Speaker 1: that underbush and those exotic invasive exotics and things, and
Speaker 1: you get this wonderful wintering opportunities for all the wildlife
Speaker 1: out there when those waterfowl migrate down here are native
Speaker 1: model ducks and things like that. And I was doing
Speaker 1: some turkey hunting about five years ago and up in
Speaker 1: East Texas and Sabbin National Forests, and they regularly do
Speaker 1: control burns to manage for turkeys. The only area, Larry,
Speaker 1: I've ever seen red cock heated woodpeckers which are federally
Speaker 1: endangered species, or on stands of timber controlled burns for
Speaker 1: East Eastern turkeys.
Speaker 2: It's amazing how that works. I've seen the same thing.
Speaker 2: I may have seen some of them, but it was
Speaker 2: right on the edge of yep. Yeah, I mean they
Speaker 2: may not been in the exact burn, but they were
Speaker 2: not two hundred yards off the burned area kind of
Speaker 2: thing exactly right. Fire. You know, Texas evolved with fire,
Speaker 2: and when you get right back down to it, and
Speaker 2: a lot of the areas that previously now are covered
Speaker 2: with brush and all that kind of thing, and Texas
Speaker 2: we're basically grasslands. Well, the indigenous people they if lightning
Speaker 2: didn't strike and burn down the old grass that was there,
Speaker 2: they found a way to create their own fires, Well,
Speaker 2: that only put nutrients back into the soul kind of thing.
Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll wrap up our conversation with
Speaker 1: mister whitetail Larry Wyzoom. Welcome back to More Outdoors on
Speaker 1: News Talk five sixty k l v I catched the
Speaker 1: podcast of this program at KLVI dot com or on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app continding our conversation with Larry Wayzoom.
Speaker 2: But it also then created new fresh growth, and those
Speaker 2: buffalo herds and you know and other animal pronghorn, antelope,
Speaker 2: whatever with they would come to those areas, and so
Speaker 2: they kind of used that fire to kind of, you
Speaker 2: look at it in a different kind of way. They
Speaker 2: used it to create food plots for the animals that
Speaker 2: they needed to survive.
Speaker 3: I just lost you, Yeah, I got you there. Okay.
Speaker 1: So that makes you know, that makes perfect sense, and
Speaker 1: it's great. You know that fire is a natural part
Speaker 1: of the ecosystem. But that just goes back to, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I became someone interested in wildlife conservation because
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with wildlife from birth, and I grew
Speaker 1: up hunting and fishing, and I have a little stream
Speaker 1: by my household, would call it the gully, and there
Speaker 1: was a factory that would dump dies into the bayou,
Speaker 1: and I was told I remember going fishing there one time,
Speaker 1: was a kid, and the water was like you've heard
Speaker 1: of black water. No, I mean it was like the
Speaker 1: pits of.
Speaker 3: Hell, black like, and it was.
Speaker 1: Purple one time, and I knew that I couldn't need
Speaker 1: a fish that don't ever you can fish down there,
Speaker 1: but don't ever bring a fish on to clean from there.
Speaker 1: And then I learned, you know, in deer hunting and
Speaker 1: things like that. I remember going out to go deer
Speaker 1: hunting and my dad teaching me the principles of like, Okay,
Speaker 1: at the time, there weren't a lot of deer any sections,
Speaker 1: so you weren't harvesting as many doughs, you know. And
Speaker 1: then we went to the hill country, it was like, no,
Speaker 1: we got dough tags here. Back in they do tagged
Speaker 1: the landowner would give you because I need to control it.
Speaker 1: So I understood through the hunting and fishing thing that wow,
Speaker 1: if we do the right thing and use the space wisely,
Speaker 1: wildlife benefits.
Speaker 3: So it was because of hunting and fishing that I
Speaker 3: wanted to get into conservation.
Speaker 2: To me, the true conservationists out there are the hunters
Speaker 2: and the fishermen. You know, not only in terms of
Speaker 2: what they actually do in terms of the physical doing,
Speaker 2: but also, as you well know, in terms of the
Speaker 2: financing of conservations. Hunters and fishermen pay for conservation primarily
Speaker 2: through well, on the hunting side, through the Pittman Robertson Act,
Speaker 2: which I think was established in nineteen thirty seven, and
Speaker 2: then the Dingle Johnson covers the fish You're right, that
Speaker 2: covers the fishing side of thing. I think was just
Speaker 2: a few years after that. So that's how conservation is
Speaker 2: really paid for. It is through the sale of sporting
Speaker 2: equipment and then of course through the licening of hunters
Speaker 2: and fishermen.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you have a long standing association with a great
Speaker 1: conservation center group hunter conservation group.
Speaker 3: The Dallas Safari Club.
Speaker 1: Can you tell them a little bit about some of
Speaker 1: the things that the Dallas Safari Club, because I know
Speaker 1: they've done things with everything from supporting desert big Horn
Speaker 1: conservation in West Texas to anti.
Speaker 3: Poaching patrols in Africa.
Speaker 1: Can you give me a little bit about maybe some
Speaker 1: of the things dallasa Fari Club has done to help conservation.
Speaker 2: DSc was established back in about nineteen eighty two, and
Speaker 2: I was very fortunate to have been involved in some
Speaker 2: form of fascists in nineteen eighty seven. It is a
Speaker 2: conservation organizations whose three legs are conservation, education and hunter advocacy,
Speaker 2: and they've been involved in so many different programs, and
Speaker 2: of course in recent times we've had the DSc Foundation,
Speaker 2: which is kind of the granting arm of DSc. Prior
Speaker 2: to that, DSc would provide grants, but once we established
Speaker 2: the DSc Foundation, it became more important, if you will,
Speaker 2: in some ways of being able to provide moneies to
Speaker 2: different projects, not only here in North America, but as
Speaker 2: across the entire world world. If you will, dollars that
Speaker 2: are issued by d SC and by DSc Foundation, those
Speaker 2: projects are extremely vetted to determine to make certain that
Speaker 2: those dollars actually go to what they're supposed to do,
Speaker 2: rather than in somebody's pockets, as is so often the
Speaker 2: case with some of the other if you will, anti
Speaker 2: hunting groups and the things that the d s C
Speaker 2: has done. In d s C Foundation, we've funded projects
Speaker 2: as you mentioned with Desert Big Horn Sheep and help
Speaker 2: them provide water in certain areas we've dealt with the
Speaker 2: desert with the Mutier Foundation and helping them creating quarters,
Speaker 2: even in terms of purchasing land in We've funded numerous
Speaker 2: projects as well in Africa dealing with leopards, trying to
Speaker 2: determine what the real status of the leopards are. Same
Speaker 2: thing with oh my gosh, with elephants, with different species, rhinos,
Speaker 2: those kinds of things. We've We've had projects going on
Speaker 2: and Europe that dealt with UH UH things such as
Speaker 2: road deer, vallader and red stags. There's projects in Asia
Speaker 2: that have been supported in terms of UH some of
Speaker 2: the work there with the Dark Galley Sheep and UH,
Speaker 2: the UH, the IBEX and things like that. But here
Speaker 2: in North America too we have done so very much
Speaker 2: with like the Rocky Elk Rocky Rocky Mount Elk Foundation
Speaker 2: UH with some of the guides and outputters associations that
Speaker 2: are involved in in UH OH in different research projects
Speaker 2: with species within their own province if you will earn
Speaker 2: their own state. And we've provided old dollars for UH
Speaker 2: all supporting the education of different groups such as that
Speaker 2: we do here in Texas. We provided money to the
Speaker 2: Texas Brigades, which is done well here in Texas, So
Speaker 2: it's a continually ongoing thing. You know. To me, there's
Speaker 2: all kinds of great conservation organizations, but I've had an
Speaker 2: opportunity to work with all of them, and to me,
Speaker 2: there's none that equals DSc or the DSc Foundation. They
Speaker 2: do so many different things for which they never get
Speaker 2: credited for. Other organizations will go we did so, so,
Speaker 2: we did so and so, and yeah, maybe you showed
Speaker 2: up for a hearing, but you weren't the one who
Speaker 2: actually got the work done kind of thing. But with DSc,
Speaker 2: it's not about the recognition. It's about getting the work
Speaker 2: done and making sure that you know there's going to
Speaker 2: be wildlife and wilelife opportunities in the future, not just
Speaker 2: right now. And I'll also say that it's kyleed Dallas
Speaker 2: Safari Club. Well, Safari is nothing more than a Swahili
Speaker 2: term for an adventure or walk about. And you do
Speaker 2: not have to be a Safari hunter. If you will
Speaker 2: somebody that goes to Africa to be a member. A
Speaker 2: matter of fact of our membership, I say there's a
Speaker 2: relatively small portion of people who actually go on Safari
Speaker 2: if you will, they have all kinds going fari quite often.
Speaker 2: My next safari is for black bear up in Alberta,
Speaker 2: after which my safari will be for stright bashed Texaman
Speaker 2: and shortly after that a safari in Northeast Texas for bluegills.
Speaker 3: I love it bluegill safari. I'm down.
Speaker 1: I'm leaving after I interview you for a bluegill safari
Speaker 1: in Orange County with my fly.
Speaker 2: Rod so and that's right, and I'll bring that up.
Speaker 2: I love it being being Dallasafari Club members Rick Lambert,
Speaker 2: who happens to be the dad of Miranda Lambert and
Speaker 2: the entertainer, and Jim Zumbo who people know for many
Speaker 2: years from years about or Lafe. Three of us. Every
Speaker 2: opportuney we get together, we try to go on on
Speaker 2: anything I'm to do with hunting at fishing, and knowing
Speaker 2: that mister zumbo favorite species in all the world is
Speaker 2: blue gill. I found a very good bluegill pond and uh,
Speaker 2: he's rather good at fishing, he's really good at at
Speaker 2: but he's also one of these guys who realizes that
Speaker 2: we have got to maintain a certain population within a pond,
Speaker 2: and so we got to take a lot of fish out,
Speaker 2: so he likes to fish those places where we have
Speaker 2: to remove with much of fish because his term for
Speaker 2: catching release is catching release and hot butter kind of things.
Speaker 1: I dig it sometimes looks sometimes like I tell people
Speaker 1: when I go crappie fish.
Speaker 3: Crappy is my favorite thing to catch.
Speaker 1: And I tell people, look conservation, all the wise use
Speaker 1: of a resource. And I'm going to use every legal
Speaker 1: size crappie that I catch today to feed my family.
Speaker 3: I'm just letting you know that part.
Speaker 2: So absolutely getting back to DSc. I'm not sure when
Speaker 2: when this will ara, but June the twenty second, we
Speaker 2: have our I think this will be the fourth annual
Speaker 2: DSc Foundation Gala being held at the Sheridan Hotel there
Speaker 2: in Dallas. We've got it's basically a fundraiser and an
Speaker 2: opportunity to bring people together. We've got some of the
Speaker 2: finest hunts from all over the world, finance fishing trips
Speaker 2: and those can you don't have to be present a
Speaker 2: bed on them. With with the new on hunting online
Speaker 2: auction things, you know you can be anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2: If you can't attend, we'd love for you to have
Speaker 2: a look at what we have available and to be
Speaker 2: a bitter there. And you know, if you want to
Speaker 2: learn more about what's going on there with the foundation,
Speaker 2: they can go to www dot d s C F
Speaker 2: dot O r G and learn more about the things
Speaker 2: that d s C does both here in North America
Speaker 2: and abroad and how d s C truly is important
Speaker 2: for the conservation of all widlife species here in North
Speaker 2: America across the world. They can go to their website
Speaker 2: as well, which is www dot b I G G
Speaker 2: A m E dot O r G SO Big Game
Speaker 2: dot org.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the program. Great interview with Larry Wazoom.
Speaker 1: Follow me at Higher Calling dot net or my new
Speaker 1: blog at Gulf Great Whites dot com at d chestermorn Instagram,
Speaker 1: God bless and have a great outdoors weekend.