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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone, and welcome to Seafood Matters. Thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>joining us again. My guest today is Jack Robertson. When

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<v Speaker 1>people talk about the development of square mesh panels in

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<v Speaker 1>the fishing industry, Jack Robertson's name is never far from

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation. So I am absolutely thrilled to welcome Jack

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<v Speaker 1>to Seafood Matters. It's means so much to me, genuinely,

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<v Speaker 1>Hi Jack, thank you for coming on.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh lovely, Jim Lovely, that's a fantastic introduction and it's

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<v Speaker 2>great to talk to you. We haven't actually talked for

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<v Speaker 2>many a long year, and we should have been. But yes,

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<v Speaker 2>I certainly had good fun with, say, the square mesh development,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was a wonderful time that I had in

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<v Speaker 2>the Marine lab in Aberdeen, developing the whole idea and

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<v Speaker 2>doing the experiments on it, and then eventually getting it

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<v Speaker 2>introduced to legislation to help the fishing industry.

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<v Speaker 1>I was never on board during the trials, but still

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<v Speaker 1>felt part of it as I believed in it, mainly

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<v Speaker 1>because I had the utmost respect for you. I'm the

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<v Speaker 1>fisherman you worked with.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jim, listen, you've said it. My initial experiment started

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<v Speaker 2>on the research vessels, but I quickly needed to get

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<v Speaker 2>into going on board with the commercial fishermen, because not

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<v Speaker 2>only could they produce more fish, but I could also

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<v Speaker 2>show them what was going on with the underwater cameras,

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<v Speaker 2>with the square mession, with their own nets, and every

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<v Speaker 2>one of the skippers, and I sailed with many, many

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<v Speaker 2>many skippers. To a man, they were all brilliant, absolutely brilliant,

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<v Speaker 2>welcomed me on board. We had a fabulous time, worked

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<v Speaker 2>very hard, Jim, because it was twenty four to seven,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a commercial trip. We just fished with them

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<v Speaker 2>as they would fish normally, and we just changed the

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<v Speaker 2>court ends as required to satisfy the experiment. We measured

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<v Speaker 2>the fish as they were working up the fish, and

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<v Speaker 2>they could have been nicer, could have been better, every single.

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<v Speaker 1>One of them. It was brilliant, fantastic, Jack. When you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned that the research vessels, there's a guy I've done

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<v Speaker 1>some recordings with, but I would class them as a

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<v Speaker 1>friend as well. He's an officially scientist in Iceland, Chap

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<v Speaker 1>Young Christiansen. Now when your men, it just comes to

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<v Speaker 1>my mind when you mentioned the research vessels, because I

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<v Speaker 1>mean John's and his eighties now obviously long time retired.

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<v Speaker 1>That like yourself, he had a real passion and an

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<v Speaker 1>interest in what he did. And his view about the

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<v Speaker 1>research vessels he reckoned that the way he put it,

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<v Speaker 1>he says they were started building nice new research vessels

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<v Speaker 1>because they didn't want to be going out to see

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<v Speaker 1>on dirty trawlers. That he reckoned that was the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>mistake they made because what it actually what actually, what

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<v Speaker 1>it actually did, was it to fishermen and scientists apart.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jim, you've said it all, and it was the

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<v Speaker 2>best thing I did. Was started going away with say,

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<v Speaker 2>the fishermen, not I'm not speaking against the research vessels

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<v Speaker 2>because actually the first square mesh experiment was undertaken on

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<v Speaker 2>a research vessel, the small gold Seeker, and then the Klipeia.

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<v Speaker 2>I did a few trips of square mesh on that

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<v Speaker 2>and the skippers and the crew of the research vessels

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<v Speaker 2>were all ex fishermen and they they were fascinated by

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<v Speaker 2>the square mesh and they helped me enormously. Were they

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<v Speaker 2>were fabulous and in what they did in the development

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<v Speaker 2>of this square mesh. But they were restricted, Jim, by

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<v Speaker 2>the civil service requirement for almost a nine to five

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<v Speaker 2>on on the vessels, so you had to stop to

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<v Speaker 2>give them their the rest and so forth. And that

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<v Speaker 2>was the system we worked to on the research vessels

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<v Speaker 2>and there was no changing that. But what I needed

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<v Speaker 2>was volume volume of fish, particularly lots of small fish,

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<v Speaker 2>to see them escaping. And that's why I moved on

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<v Speaker 2>to the the commercial vessels. And and it was certainly

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<v Speaker 2>the best thing that I could have done for the

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<v Speaker 2>development of the experiments and the idea.

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<v Speaker 1>And what was the atmosphere in the industry, Like then Zark.

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<v Speaker 2>The atmosphere was I this is the late nineteen seventies

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<v Speaker 2>early nineteen eighties, and they were going through quite a

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<v Speaker 2>good period. The fish stocks were large, and the atmosphere

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<v Speaker 2>was actually quite good gym. It was a positive atmosphere.

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<v Speaker 2>There were new boats being built, there was quite a

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<v Speaker 2>bit of money in the industry. But things were beginning

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<v Speaker 2>to happen in that stock assessments were suggesting the need

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<v Speaker 2>for quotas. Quotas were being introduced, which the industry obviously

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<v Speaker 2>were a bit concerned about. And then quotas were were

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<v Speaker 2>reduced gradually and so forth, So gradually the atmosphere changed

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<v Speaker 2>to one of tremendous optimism with lots of fish catching

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<v Speaker 2>potential and opportunities to fewer opportunities, And that's why they

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<v Speaker 2>became interested in the whole idea of saving juvenile fish,

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<v Speaker 2>which is what the Squaremish was all about. I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to save the juveniles to pump back into the fish stocks,

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<v Speaker 2>to enhance the fish stocks for the fishing industry. That

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<v Speaker 2>was my burning ambition all the time. It was to

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<v Speaker 2>help the industry. And when they saw that come along,

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<v Speaker 2>they became very interested, actually, And there was a great

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<v Speaker 2>atmosphere of optimism developed through the nineteen eighties as I

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<v Speaker 2>went on board more and more of the commercial boats

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<v Speaker 2>and met more skippers, and more skippers talked about it,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was certainly a tremendous feeling of optimism that

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps something could be done to bring the stocks back

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit, because by the late nineteen eighties, the

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<v Speaker 2>hardock stocks in particular had to decreased markedly, so opportunities

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<v Speaker 2>for the industry were becoming rather more difficult. And of course,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we were unfortunately still in the EU and

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<v Speaker 2>the EUS dictating what we had to do in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of catch limits and so forth, and boats had to

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<v Speaker 2>be taken out and then gradually there was a pall

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<v Speaker 2>came over the industry of real unhappiness. Jim, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know whether you would agree with me that it was

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<v Speaker 2>a period of a bit of unhappiness about the way

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<v Speaker 2>things were going.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I remember back when you were doing the trials. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>you explained how and showed I'm sure I saw some

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<v Speaker 1>of the videos how it wasn't just a case of

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<v Speaker 1>square mesh panels. More fish would get out. I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>right and saying when they were trying to get out

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<v Speaker 1>of the diamond net they lost a lot of scales

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<v Speaker 1>picking up infections, and so there was much better for

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<v Speaker 1>the fish when they escape of even the small fish

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<v Speaker 1>escaping escape from us square mesh rather than a diamond Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's correct.

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<v Speaker 2>My colleagues John Maine and Graham Sangster, who by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>developed the separator troll, which is another great story about

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<v Speaker 2>the development of that. But they were concerned about the

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<v Speaker 2>survival of juvenile fish escaping from diamond mesh. That's what

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<v Speaker 2>they started on. And then I asked them to look

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<v Speaker 2>at the square mesh as well, and their results showed

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<v Speaker 2>that survival rates from the square mesh were improved for sure,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can understand why, just as you described it, Gim,

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<v Speaker 2>the diamond meshes are tight closed and a juvenile fish

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<v Speaker 2>trying to escape out through wriggling away like crazy, and

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<v Speaker 2>you can see the scales flying off them in clouds

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<v Speaker 2>of scales in some cases, and yet coming out of

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<v Speaker 2>the square mesh. It was both pop out straight out

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<v Speaker 2>through the square, hardly touching the sides, hardly touching the

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<v Speaker 2>mesh at all, and no evidence of clouds of scales

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<v Speaker 2>running down the length of the cod end. And of

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<v Speaker 2>course we were filming all this with a remote control

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<v Speaker 2>television vehicle which was controlled from the surface, so it

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<v Speaker 2>was flying alongside the court ends and observing all the

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<v Speaker 2>experimental cod ends that I used, and it was quite fascinating.

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<v Speaker 2>The thing that started me off was I began diving

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle nineteen seventies, began diving with John and

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<v Speaker 2>Graham on troll gear, so they were looking at design

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<v Speaker 2>improvements to design of troll nets, etc. That was the

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<v Speaker 2>remit at the time in the lab, or at least

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<v Speaker 2>in the gear section of the lab, and that diving

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<v Speaker 2>really taught me a lot about net design. It also

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<v Speaker 2>taught me a lot about how many juvenile fish were

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<v Speaker 2>being destroyed. Now, in discussions with a colleague in the

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<v Speaker 2>lab Stand German, he told me in the late nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>seventies that's something in the region of seventy percent of

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<v Speaker 2>what was captured in the North Sea of harrick and whiting.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about here, seventy percent of what was caught

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<v Speaker 2>was discarded over the side as dead juvenile fish. So

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<v Speaker 2>this was babies that didn't get a chance to spawn.

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<v Speaker 2>This was babies who were not feeding other fish species,

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<v Speaker 2>because the ecosystem requires lots of different species around and

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<v Speaker 2>they feed on each other, and that's important. Caught in

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<v Speaker 2>the southern North Sea on sand deals sand eals were

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<v Speaker 2>fished out. Where did the cod go? They disappeared out

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<v Speaker 2>of the Dogger Bank Doga bank. Cord fishery was one

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<v Speaker 2>of the biggest in the world. It's no longer, it

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<v Speaker 2>hasn't been for thirty forty fifty years because of the

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<v Speaker 2>sandal fishery. So their food was taken from them. So

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<v Speaker 2>these juvenile haddick and whiting, which could have been potentially

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<v Speaker 2>food for cord and for haddock themselves, for adult haddock

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<v Speaker 2>and adult whiting and so forth, it wasn't available to them.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was a huge waste, huge waste, and it

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<v Speaker 2>had to stop. But the way that the government wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to stop it was by increasing the diamond mash size,

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<v Speaker 2>but that didn't work. You were still getting discards. If

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<v Speaker 2>you increased from seventy eighty to ninety two hundred mil,

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<v Speaker 2>there were still discards, maybe not as many as there

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<v Speaker 2>had been before, but nonetheless way too many to accept.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, really interesting, but Jimmy it was.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course the diving on the next with John

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<v Speaker 2>and Graham showed all that to me, and I thought,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got to do something about this. I really have to,

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<v Speaker 2>and you dead, well, yeah, I mean it's something simple

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<v Speaker 2>like turning diamond mesh onto the square. But actually there

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<v Speaker 2>was something I did before that. I had to look

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<v Speaker 2>at hexagonal mesh six six sided mesh, which is when

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<v Speaker 2>you turn it a certain way, you can end up

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<v Speaker 2>with a rectangle. And I thought, oh, now a rectangle

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be good because it'll let more juvenile

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<v Speaker 2>fish out, but it'll let the flatfish out as well.

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<v Speaker 2>And I had a look at that and that was

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<v Speaker 2>really good. But then I thought, m hexagonal mesh no,

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<v Speaker 2>too expensive and not very practical. For mending and so forth.

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<v Speaker 2>So it had to be What I wanted to develop

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<v Speaker 2>was something, and I think you'll agree with me, Jim.

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<v Speaker 2>It had to be practical, and it had to be

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<v Speaker 2>acceptable to the industry. So I moved on to the

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<v Speaker 2>square mesh and began trials, many many hundreds of trials,

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<v Speaker 2>many many hundreds of toes over different horsepower vessels, say nets,

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<v Speaker 2>troll nets, big and small vessels with full square mesh cottage.

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<v Speaker 2>Now get that, Jim, it's full square mesh cottage. And

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<v Speaker 2>I did. I did that, and the results were unbelievable. However, however,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a potential problem in that if the square

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<v Speaker 2>mesh was too big, you would lose too many marketable fish,

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<v Speaker 2>and I didn't want that. The industry can't cope with

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<v Speaker 2>any conservation device which on a whul By Hall basis

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<v Speaker 2>restricts the amount of adult fish that they can capture.

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<v Speaker 2>In other words, if the adult fish was escaping, what's

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<v Speaker 2>the point in spending money and fuel and towing for

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<v Speaker 2>hours and hours an end if you're getting you know,

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<v Speaker 2>ten boxes as opposed to of adult fish, as oppos

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<v Speaker 2>to thirty or forty or fifty boxes.

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<v Speaker 1>Of adult fish.

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<v Speaker 2>But at the same but at the same time let

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<v Speaker 2>the juvenile fish escape, so that that became that became

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<v Speaker 2>an issue which I had to look at very very carefully.

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<v Speaker 2>And actually the best size for whitefish trolls of square

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<v Speaker 2>mesh was eighty millimeters, which with which compared roughly to

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<v Speaker 2>about one hundred millimeter diamond, but it didn't compare in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of the release of juvenile fish. The square eighty

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<v Speaker 2>still reduced more juvenile hrdrican whiting, so you can see that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it was a long it was a long

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<v Speaker 2>process of experimentation to find to find a mesh size

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<v Speaker 2>that was acceptable to the industry and by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>getting the industry to accept it as well. But but

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<v Speaker 2>that was helped enormously by these fabulous skippers that I

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<v Speaker 2>went away with on on on their their boats and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just dropping and I love to name drop

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to square mesh. I mean Tom Harks,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he he was, he was, he was on

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<v Speaker 2>board excuse the pun for square mesh, you know. And

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<v Speaker 2>and I was away with I was away with John

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<v Speaker 2>Smith on the heather Sprigue. He was another great supporter

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<v Speaker 2>of the square mesh and and and I could go

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<v Speaker 2>on and on about it, you know, in terms of names.

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<v Speaker 2>But people are sure that supported the square mesh were

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<v Speaker 2>were very helpful in persuading the industry, in getting the

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<v Speaker 2>idea cross, in showing results in discussing it. The likes

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<v Speaker 2>of John Ashworth was sometime. Do you remember John Ashworth? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>he was. He was very vocal in support of the industry.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything that that man did was totally in support of

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<v Speaker 2>the industry.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I remember that. But then it's interesting, Jacket

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<v Speaker 1>You've mentioned Tom hark Is, because it was just the

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<v Speaker 1>very person I was going to mention just now because

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<v Speaker 1>I remember your trials. Obviously, I did a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>business with Tom and all that Orkney boats, and I

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00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:43.160
<v Speaker 1>remember Tom saying and just exactly what you were saying

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<v Speaker 1>with it, but it was eighty mullimeter and he was

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<v Speaker 1>I think the trials were ninety on the Diamond and

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<v Speaker 1>he reckoned not on the square, sorry, And he was

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<v Speaker 1>concerned that there were letting just everything that you said,

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00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:07.440
<v Speaker 1>mature fish escape and it wasn't going to work. But

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<v Speaker 1>I'm right in saying that, which I thought was crazy

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<v Speaker 1>at the time, that they weren't allowed to come down

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<v Speaker 1>because from ninety because because of the regulations on mesh size,

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00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:34.119
<v Speaker 1>and they wouldn't they wouldn't budge on the fact that

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00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:39.680
<v Speaker 1>square mesh was much greater. As you said there, eighty

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00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:45.559
<v Speaker 1>was the equivalent to one hundred and probably ninety what

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00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.200
<v Speaker 1>would be equivalent to maybe one hundred and ten or

253
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:51.680
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and twenty, But they wouldn't let them take

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<v Speaker 1>it down. Is that right? Am I remembering that correctly?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. It's a complicated issue, but essense,

256
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.720
<v Speaker 2>you're right. I mean, we're talking about the civil servants

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<v Speaker 2>in head Office. They had control of the introduction of legislation,

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00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:09.359
<v Speaker 2>so we were, you know, the scientists in the marine lab.

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<v Speaker 2>We're merely putting our data to them and they decided

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<v Speaker 2>from there, so any recommendations that we made would not

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00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:19.720
<v Speaker 2>necessarily been taken.

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<v Speaker 1>Up by them.

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00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:23.720
<v Speaker 2>But I do recall a conversation with one civil servant

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00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.599
<v Speaker 2>who said, when I put to him that the eighty

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00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.240
<v Speaker 2>millimeter would be the best for the fishing industry in

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00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:36.519
<v Speaker 2>terms of retaining marketable fish but still allowing a much

267
00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.880
<v Speaker 2>higher escape rate of the juvenile fish than nineteen one

268
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:45.240
<v Speaker 2>hundred mili diamond. And he said, no, we can't let

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00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:49.759
<v Speaker 2>them go down to eighty because they might cheat. Now

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<v Speaker 2>I found that a fascinating statement, and I mean it

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<v Speaker 2>actually demonstrates a lack of understanding of a civil servants

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00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:02.480
<v Speaker 2>sitting at a desk in Edinburgh compared to us out

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00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.640
<v Speaker 2>there on the fishing boats with the fisherman doing the stuff.

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00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.599
<v Speaker 2>And I asked him. I asked him, I said, what

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<v Speaker 2>do you mean precisely by they would cheat with it? Oh? Well,

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00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:23.599
<v Speaker 2>can't they close the meshus up and restrict the And

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<v Speaker 2>I said, well, okay, they could perhaps snotter you know

278
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.279
<v Speaker 2>what I mean by snortering accordagem just tying a rope

279
00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:36.799
<v Speaker 2>rounded and closing the meshes up. And I said, well, okay,

280
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.880
<v Speaker 2>you know a fisherman could do that. But then why

281
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:46.400
<v Speaker 2>would he do that if the idea of eighty millimeter

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00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:51.119
<v Speaker 2>or even ninety milimeters square mesh is sold to the industry.

283
00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:54.200
<v Speaker 2>And he looked at me and he said, you know

284
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.119
<v Speaker 2>what do you mean? I said, well, look, we've got

285
00:20:56.160 --> 00:21:01.279
<v Speaker 2>to undertake a teaching process of of getting across the

286
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:05.079
<v Speaker 2>idea to the industry and showing them the data, showing

287
00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:10.960
<v Speaker 2>them the video film and persuading them to use the

288
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.759
<v Speaker 2>square mesh in the manner that it was meant to

289
00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.119
<v Speaker 2>be used. And I said, and this is the telling factor.

290
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:23.240
<v Speaker 2>I said, Look, even even if thirty percent of the

291
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:27.480
<v Speaker 2>fishing industry were to cheat with the square mesh caught end,

292
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:33.279
<v Speaker 2>you would still with the remaining seventy percent, be something

293
00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.039
<v Speaker 2>in the region of sixty to seventy percent better off

294
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:43.440
<v Speaker 2>in terms of the destruction of juvenile fish in reducing

295
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:47.000
<v Speaker 2>the destruction of juvenile fish. And he looked at me,

296
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.200
<v Speaker 2>he said, is that right? And I said, well, you know,

297
00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:52.480
<v Speaker 2>as far as one can one can calculate. And of

298
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:56.319
<v Speaker 2>course these calculations are very difficult to make, Jim, you know,

299
00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:01.920
<v Speaker 2>it's stock assessment work and so on. Is open to

300
00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:06.000
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of questions. But basically that was the argument

301
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:09.480
<v Speaker 2>that even if some of them did snorter their the

302
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:15.480
<v Speaker 2>squaremish caught in, there would still be a benefit in

303
00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.400
<v Speaker 2>terms of increasing the spawning stock biomass by allowing the

304
00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:24.000
<v Speaker 2>juvenile fish to escape. Well, okay, so this argument goes

305
00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:26.400
<v Speaker 2>on for years and years and years, and I'm talking.

306
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:34.519
<v Speaker 2>My first filming of square mesh happened in September nineteen

307
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:42.359
<v Speaker 2>eighty one, and from there it took ten years to

308
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:49.880
<v Speaker 2>get the square mesh panel into legislation, and interestingly, Jim,

309
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:55.039
<v Speaker 2>the panel for prontrolls when it was introduced in nineteen

310
00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:02.039
<v Speaker 2>ninety one was eighty millimeters. The panel for whitefish trolls

311
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:09.000
<v Speaker 2>was ninety millimeters. So you know, the acceptance of eighteen

312
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:15.039
<v Speaker 2>milimeter was okay eventually, but only for the prontrol that

313
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:19.880
<v Speaker 2>that ten year period. GYM was extremely frustrating because within

314
00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:27.680
<v Speaker 2>about four years five years of nineteen eighty one, I

315
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:32.599
<v Speaker 2>had gathered a huge amount of data on squaremesh cought ents,

316
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.960
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted and felt that it would be the

317
00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:39.000
<v Speaker 2>best for the industry to introduce squaremish cought ens at

318
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:42.519
<v Speaker 2>eighty millimeters. And I wish that had happened, I really do,

319
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:48.720
<v Speaker 2>But there was no persuading the civil servants who controlled

320
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:54.240
<v Speaker 2>the legislation. No matter how well we put across our

321
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:58.880
<v Speaker 2>argument or data, etc. There was no way it was

322
00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:05.640
<v Speaker 2>going to happen. So from about nineteen eighty six we

323
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.680
<v Speaker 2>began thinking, how are we going to get round this?

324
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.359
<v Speaker 2>How are we going to get square mesh in? Because

325
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:14.359
<v Speaker 2>we were totally convinced that square mesh was going to

326
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:18.480
<v Speaker 2>be good for certainly for hardick and waiting stocks, how

327
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:21.359
<v Speaker 2>we're going to do it, and the square mesh panel

328
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.960
<v Speaker 2>on the top side of the cord end was mooted.

329
00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:30.839
<v Speaker 2>Now I'll tell you a little story here, and it's

330
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.599
<v Speaker 2>a funny story in a way because I to this

331
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.680
<v Speaker 2>day I still have a laugh with Ken Arkley. Do

332
00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:41.480
<v Speaker 2>you remember Ken Arkley from the Seafish Industry Authority? Now,

333
00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Ken Ken was yeah, yeah, SFI. Ken was a very

334
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:52.519
<v Speaker 2>practical down to earth lad and I was having discussions

335
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.039
<v Speaker 2>with him about, you know, what to do in terms

336
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:59.240
<v Speaker 2>of oh well, he said, let's let's have a look

337
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:06.400
<v Speaker 2>at a panel, and I said okay, and I invited

338
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:08.680
<v Speaker 2>them up on one of the trips and we did

339
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.240
<v Speaker 2>some work on the panel, different positions in the cord end,

340
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:15.119
<v Speaker 2>and it was great. And the panel on the top

341
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:19.000
<v Speaker 2>side of the cord end works so well because it

342
00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:24.319
<v Speaker 2>depends on the behavior of the huddeken whiting, which always

343
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:28.640
<v Speaker 2>rise up as they're running down the extension, or at

344
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:34.319
<v Speaker 2>least swimming backwards as it were, or swimming to keep

345
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:36.720
<v Speaker 2>up with the net, but the nets overtaking them as

346
00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:41.000
<v Speaker 2>they exhausts, so gradually they're dropping down the extension. They

347
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.200
<v Speaker 2>come into the cod end and immediately they're pushing upwards

348
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.640
<v Speaker 2>as they had been pushing upwards against the diamond mesh

349
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.440
<v Speaker 2>but couldn't get out, and they were upwards. So this

350
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:56.839
<v Speaker 2>behavior was incredible. They were always going upwards, so the

351
00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:02.559
<v Speaker 2>panel on the top side was just ideal. Now, this

352
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:07.640
<v Speaker 2>behavior of Hardig and Whiting rising up was first discovered

353
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:13.680
<v Speaker 2>by John Mayne and Graham Sangster when they started working

354
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:17.680
<v Speaker 2>on their separator troll. Well actually before they started working

355
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:22.599
<v Speaker 2>on the separator troll, they were filming fish behavior in

356
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:27.480
<v Speaker 2>the mouth of the troll and they discovered that Haddig

357
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:31.440
<v Speaker 2>and whiting when they exhausted and they couldn't keep up

358
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:35.039
<v Speaker 2>swimming with the net with the troll as it was

359
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:40.720
<v Speaker 2>trundling over the seabed, they would always rise up. Unbelievable,

360
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and John and Graham said, wow, this is incredible. They

361
00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:47.720
<v Speaker 2>rise up, the whiting rise up, not to such a

362
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:51.279
<v Speaker 2>high level, but all the had all the flatfish were

363
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:54.279
<v Speaker 2>staying low, as you would imagine flatfish would always do,

364
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:58.279
<v Speaker 2>and cod were staying low as well. So they came

365
00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:03.119
<v Speaker 2>up with a brilliant idea. Let's try a horizontal separator

366
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:07.799
<v Speaker 2>panel along the full length of the net from the

367
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.119
<v Speaker 2>from the mouth of the net just above the foot

368
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:14.079
<v Speaker 2>rope right back into the court ends and have a

369
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.839
<v Speaker 2>cought end on top and a cought end down below.

370
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:21.440
<v Speaker 2>And lo and behold, the top cought end caught all

371
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.319
<v Speaker 2>the hurdigan waiting. The lower cot end caught all the

372
00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:30.599
<v Speaker 2>flatfish and the cord. So that's that's why, that's why

373
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:34.640
<v Speaker 2>the panel worked in my mind, because I knew that

374
00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:38.000
<v Speaker 2>behavior from John and Graham, and I knew they were

375
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.279
<v Speaker 2>going to push out on the top side. But but

376
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:44.759
<v Speaker 2>but my real problem was I wanted juvenile cod to

377
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:51.160
<v Speaker 2>escape as well. Cod do not rise up. They always

378
00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:55.799
<v Speaker 2>they always tend to go down. And I knew from

379
00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:59.720
<v Speaker 2>the filming of my square mesh cought end, the full

380
00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:02.799
<v Speaker 2>cod end with the square mesh on the full circumference,

381
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:08.799
<v Speaker 2>I had film of juvenile cod escaping from the lower part.

382
00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:13.279
<v Speaker 2>Now you can understand, Jim, that's why, that's why I

383
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:17.480
<v Speaker 2>wanted to use the full square mesh cod end square

384
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:21.119
<v Speaker 2>mesh on the circumference, because it would deal with the cod,

385
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:24.960
<v Speaker 2>the juvenile cod, and it would going down, and it

386
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:30.240
<v Speaker 2>would deal with the haddache juvenile haddigan waiting going up. Okay,

387
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:34.359
<v Speaker 2>So the next problem, the next problem that the industry

388
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:38.039
<v Speaker 2>quite rightly raised was what about the flatfish? If you're

389
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:44.680
<v Speaker 2>using a full square mesh codent, are they going to escape? Well,

390
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:47.759
<v Speaker 2>the simple answer was that tiny flatfish do escape from

391
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:55.079
<v Speaker 2>square mesh eighteen ninety mili, but the regulation minimum size

392
00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:00.680
<v Speaker 2>and below doesn't necessarily do so. So to solve that problem,

393
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.799
<v Speaker 2>we put a short length of diamond mesh on the

394
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:07.240
<v Speaker 2>back end of the full square mesh cod ent and

395
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:11.640
<v Speaker 2>that solved the problem. So cod juvenile cord were going

396
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.920
<v Speaker 2>out down below in the square mesh, hurrigon whiting were

397
00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:18.519
<v Speaker 2>going out the top. The flat undersized flatfish were going

398
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.039
<v Speaker 2>out with the diamond mesh at the back end. And

399
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:27.720
<v Speaker 2>it couldn't have been better, But would would the legislators

400
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:33.400
<v Speaker 2>except that no. Now, part of the reason was, of course,

401
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:39.960
<v Speaker 2>that the industry were concerned about the full square mesh

402
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.519
<v Speaker 2>cord end on the round. They wondered about the strength.

403
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.400
<v Speaker 2>So I did a lot of its strength experiments, and

404
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:51.279
<v Speaker 2>I use different type of netting. I used not Japanese

405
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:55.079
<v Speaker 2>knutless netting and so forth, and we felt that we

406
00:29:55.160 --> 00:30:01.599
<v Speaker 2>had resolved all their questions about the strength, but it

407
00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:10.559
<v Speaker 2>didn't really gather traction. However, However, the squamish idea did

408
00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:14.559
<v Speaker 2>gather traction with the industry and certainly the squaremish panel

409
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:22.160
<v Speaker 2>was acceptable to them. Uh. And then the whole sort

410
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.680
<v Speaker 2>of political process of by the industry to to actually

411
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:32.079
<v Speaker 2>get it introduced was was undertaken. And I met I

412
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:35.519
<v Speaker 2>met some great guys you know who represented the industry.

413
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:38.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you remember Willy Hay very well,

414
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Willie Willy willy Hay was he was extremely interested in

415
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.160
<v Speaker 2>the squamish and we had a meeting well, in fact,

416
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:52.960
<v Speaker 2>willy Hay invited Ken Arkley and myself down to Edinburgh

417
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:57.400
<v Speaker 2>along with other representatives from Willy Hay was the president

418
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:01.880
<v Speaker 2>of the s FF at the time and and uh

419
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:07.000
<v Speaker 2>and and Tom Hay was at that time president or

420
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:11.200
<v Speaker 2>chairman of of the s w f p A. He

421
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:17.880
<v Speaker 2>later moved on and created f A L the Fisherman's Association. Yeah,

422
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.440
<v Speaker 2>but but Tom Tom was there representing the s w

423
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:23.599
<v Speaker 2>f p A, and he was he was in favor

424
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:29.160
<v Speaker 2>of it because because their skippers had fed through the associations,

425
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:33.599
<v Speaker 2>their their interest and and in many cases their delight

426
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.519
<v Speaker 2>in the idea of the square mesh panel and reducing

427
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:42.920
<v Speaker 2>the the juvenile Hurricane Whiting and and Willie Hay, I

428
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:46.559
<v Speaker 2>mean Willie I had. I had seen Willie at some

429
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.920
<v Speaker 2>meetings that had occurred in the lab and and and

430
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:54.160
<v Speaker 2>and I thought, oh, dere being invited down to Edinburgh

431
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:55.880
<v Speaker 2>by Willie Hay is probably going to tell me off

432
00:31:55.920 --> 00:32:00.160
<v Speaker 2>about the square mesh because I've seen him up, I'd

433
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.160
<v Speaker 2>seen him operate at some other meetings, and by haven't

434
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:05.839
<v Speaker 2>seen he wouldn't hold back with the scientists, you know,

435
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:09.720
<v Speaker 2>he would give them hell. But you know what he

436
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:12.640
<v Speaker 2>could he couldn't have been nicer. So we were in

437
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:14.720
<v Speaker 2>a hood. I can't even remember which hotel. It was,

438
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.079
<v Speaker 2>the meeting room in the hotel, and it was it

439
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:22.839
<v Speaker 2>was laid out with the tables, and he met he

440
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:26.559
<v Speaker 2>met Ken and I at the door of the hotel.

441
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:28.759
<v Speaker 2>And I'll never forget He's come in. Lads. She says,

442
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:32.680
<v Speaker 2>you must be starving. I've set up I've set you

443
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:36.680
<v Speaker 2>up for a plate of fish and chips. So we

444
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:41.480
<v Speaker 2>sat we sat down with all these industry leaders around us,

445
00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:48.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, including the likes of John Thompson, including you

446
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:51.519
<v Speaker 2>know John Smith. He was he was in the s

447
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:55.960
<v Speaker 2>w f P A one one of the office bearers

448
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:59.680
<v Speaker 2>et cetera, and some names I can't even remember now,

449
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:01.400
<v Speaker 2>but there were a lot of them, and they were

450
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:05.680
<v Speaker 2>just questioning Ken and I about the whole business, and

451
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:07.759
<v Speaker 2>we just we just laid it out as I'm laying

452
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:10.440
<v Speaker 2>it out to you, about the squaremish, the full squaremish

453
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:14.240
<v Speaker 2>caught end, they caught in with the diamond piece on

454
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:21.599
<v Speaker 2>the end, the squamish panels, uh and so on, and

455
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.960
<v Speaker 2>they were very much in favor of it. And I believe,

456
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.240
<v Speaker 2>although there's a lot going on in the background with

457
00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:32.480
<v Speaker 2>many other people, including John Ashworth who was pushing for

458
00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:37.079
<v Speaker 2>it in Math, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in

459
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:43.440
<v Speaker 2>in in England, that I believe that that was a

460
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:51.359
<v Speaker 2>turning point that meeting where they they accepted that certainly

461
00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:54.440
<v Speaker 2>to help the industry and to minimize the destruction of

462
00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:01.000
<v Speaker 2>the juvenile fish, that the squaremish panel was worth seeing

463
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:05.400
<v Speaker 2>or putting into legislation, and they then went to the

464
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:11.599
<v Speaker 2>legislators and persuaded them to introduce it. And of course

465
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:16.599
<v Speaker 2>the first introduction was in nineteen ninety one, as I said,

466
00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:19.880
<v Speaker 2>and believe it or not, Jim, of course you'll be

467
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.920
<v Speaker 2>well aware square mesh has been in legislation continuously since

468
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:30.280
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety one in the UK fishery at various sizes

469
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:35.880
<v Speaker 2>and configurations, etc. It's been in European legislation since the

470
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:39.199
<v Speaker 2>early nineteen nineties because they took it on board after

471
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:44.719
<v Speaker 2>we introduced it in the UK, and it's been in Iceland,

472
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.000
<v Speaker 2>it's been in Canada, it's been in America, it's been

473
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:52.880
<v Speaker 2>in Norway, it's been in a wide range of countries

474
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:57.039
<v Speaker 2>in the Northern Hemisphere, including in the Southern Hemisphere. Australia's

475
00:34:57.079 --> 00:35:01.440
<v Speaker 2>big and square mesh as well. So it it really,

476
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:09.280
<v Speaker 2>it really did start something. But Jim, but now here's me.

477
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:12.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm a young scientist and I come up with this

478
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.119
<v Speaker 2>square mesh idea. Let's open the mass shop. And I

479
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:18.519
<v Speaker 2>come up with this idea and I think, oh, this

480
00:35:18.679 --> 00:35:24.960
<v Speaker 2>is fabulous. I'm the first one. I'm the inventor, and

481
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:29.239
<v Speaker 2>I thought, oh wow, this is something big, and I

482
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:32.559
<v Speaker 2>was I was very proud of myself having invented it. Anyway,

483
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:36.039
<v Speaker 2>after the first trial that I had with it, I thought,

484
00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:38.480
<v Speaker 2>do you know what I need to get into this

485
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:41.800
<v Speaker 2>selectivity of cought ins more than I had done up

486
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:43.960
<v Speaker 2>till that time, Because up till that time in the

487
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:48.039
<v Speaker 2>Marine Lab Gym. I was looking at fishing gear design.

488
00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:52.039
<v Speaker 2>That's what I was employed for, to improve fishing gear design,

489
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:56.079
<v Speaker 2>and that's all I've been doing. I hadn't developed into selectivity,

490
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:58.440
<v Speaker 2>so I needed to get a background on what had

491
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.320
<v Speaker 2>been done in selectivity. And along to the librarian in

492
00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:04.280
<v Speaker 2>the lab, John Byrne. And in those days, of course,

493
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:07.000
<v Speaker 2>we didn't have the Internet. He couldn't email, he couldn't

494
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:11.000
<v Speaker 2>He had to phone around all of the libraries in

495
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:16.880
<v Speaker 2>the UK, in Europe and across the world to ask them.

496
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:22.519
<v Speaker 2>My question to him, which was has square mesh ever

497
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:26.760
<v Speaker 2>been used before? I was hoping it hadn't because I

498
00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:31.000
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be the inventor. But it had. It had

499
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:37.039
<v Speaker 2>because John came back with And this is where the

500
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:43.199
<v Speaker 2>history just fascinates me about the whole thing. Apparently a fellow,

501
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:47.800
<v Speaker 2>a Dutchman by the name of Guelder, first child square

502
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.280
<v Speaker 2>mesh panel. It was a panel in a in a

503
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:56.159
<v Speaker 2>in a four panel caught end which was held open

504
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:02.559
<v Speaker 2>by a frame. He tried square mesh in nineteen twenty eight.

505
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:09.039
<v Speaker 2>Would you imagine nineteen twenty eight. It was incredible. And

506
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:15.880
<v Speaker 2>John went even further back a fishery scientist in England,

507
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.039
<v Speaker 2>an Englishman in eighteen ninety five, had you used square

508
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.800
<v Speaker 2>mesh as well? So that was me blown out of

509
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the water. I hadn't invented it after all, But Jim

510
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:33.559
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't disappointed because the more that I got into

511
00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:37.599
<v Speaker 2>the whole selectivity issue and looked at the history of it, well,

512
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:41.559
<v Speaker 2>there was Holt in eighteen ninety five, Guilder in nineteen

513
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:45.480
<v Speaker 2>twenty eight. In the early nineteen hundreds there was a

514
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.840
<v Speaker 2>rash of scientists Danish, Dutch and so forth who were

515
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.119
<v Speaker 2>concerned about the destruction of juvenile fish, and they started

516
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:58.480
<v Speaker 2>playing around with different designs of troll which they called

517
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:03.239
<v Speaker 2>savings trolls. They were saving the juvenile fish, saving the babyfish.

518
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.800
<v Speaker 2>But none of them, none of them took off in

519
00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:11.920
<v Speaker 2>the legislation, and it needs to go into legislation because fishermen.

520
00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:15.920
<v Speaker 2>Although in recent times I understand there have been some

521
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:19.760
<v Speaker 2>fishermen who've wanted to trial their own designs and have

522
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:26.480
<v Speaker 2>been refused by by the ministries to use them legally,

523
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:29.920
<v Speaker 2>when in fact they've been shown to be much better

524
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.440
<v Speaker 2>than what we've got at the moment. However, that's another story.

525
00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:37.079
<v Speaker 2>But none of the early devices were ever introduced into

526
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:41.280
<v Speaker 2>legislation because at that time there was no legislation. There

527
00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:45.519
<v Speaker 2>was no minimum size mesh size. That didn't occur until

528
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:50.639
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty three in the UK fishery when a mesh

529
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:56.000
<v Speaker 2>size of roughly roughly seventy seventy five millimeters was introduced

530
00:38:56.039 --> 00:39:01.920
<v Speaker 2>to the troll fishery for the first time. Solation built

531
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:08.920
<v Speaker 2>around the world into legislation from the nineteen thirties up

532
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:12.840
<v Speaker 2>to the nineteen eighties where I was trying to introduce

533
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:17.039
<v Speaker 2>the square mesh. So the history of the whole thing

534
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:26.519
<v Speaker 2>was fascinating, and the history also included the then director

535
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:29.559
<v Speaker 2>of the Marine Lab, Basil Parish. Now you might remember

536
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Basil Parish. He was a great director of the Marine

537
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:37.639
<v Speaker 2>Lab and he was very much in favor of the

538
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:42.920
<v Speaker 2>square mesh. And when I came back from my first

539
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.400
<v Speaker 2>trial on the Gold Seeker with the video film and

540
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:53.719
<v Speaker 2>the data showing the juveniles escaping, he saw the film

541
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:57.559
<v Speaker 2>and it was in September, and he said, what do

542
00:39:57.639 --> 00:39:59.400
<v Speaker 2>you want to do with this, Jack? And I said, well,

543
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:03.239
<v Speaker 2>obviously we've got to do some experiments on it. I said,

544
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:05.000
<v Speaker 2>well absolutely, he said, but what do you want to

545
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:08.280
<v Speaker 2>do immediately, because he was so keen to get something

546
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:12.719
<v Speaker 2>done immediately in terms of more fish data to prove

547
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:16.400
<v Speaker 2>whether it was better or not. And I said, well,

548
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:21.440
<v Speaker 2>I can't get any any funding because the annual funding

549
00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:25.440
<v Speaker 2>had been allocated. And he said, don't worry about that.

550
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.280
<v Speaker 2>He said, how much do you need to charter a

551
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:30.960
<v Speaker 2>fishing vessel and go off and do some experiments. So

552
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:34.280
<v Speaker 2>within a month and made me returning from that trip,

553
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:40.239
<v Speaker 2>Basil Parish had found funding and I had chartered a vessel,

554
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:46.119
<v Speaker 2>the Harvest Reaper, out of the Fraserburg with James May

555
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:52.559
<v Speaker 2>the skipper, and James was brilliant, absolutely brilliant, and we

556
00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:56.440
<v Speaker 2>got some very good data which showed to Basil that

557
00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:00.480
<v Speaker 2>the square was certainly performing better than the the Diamond

558
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:05.239
<v Speaker 2>mesh in certain circumstances. And from there it blossomed. From

559
00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:09.159
<v Speaker 2>there I couldn't. I was never refused any funding that

560
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:13.400
<v Speaker 2>I requested for, you know, chartering boats, going away with

561
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:21.519
<v Speaker 2>the fishermen, et cetera, which was absolutely phenomenal. Now, one

562
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:27.800
<v Speaker 2>interesting thing, Jim Listen, that trip with James May was staggering,

563
00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:33.960
<v Speaker 2>not only because of what they saw, they were staggered

564
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.559
<v Speaker 2>by what they saw both from the video film and

565
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:41.880
<v Speaker 2>from the data that I produced. But I was staggered

566
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.679
<v Speaker 2>because James said to me one day, and it was

567
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:48.800
<v Speaker 2>about the second day of the trials, he says, you

568
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:54.719
<v Speaker 2>know something, Jack, I'm comparing the diamond mesh fish with

569
00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:59.199
<v Speaker 2>the square mesh caught fish, and I'm seeing a better

570
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:04.000
<v Speaker 2>quality in the square mesh fish. And we looked at

571
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:08.800
<v Speaker 2>it closely and it was true. Visually we could see

572
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:12.159
<v Speaker 2>that there was a better quality. Now why was that, well,

573
00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:15.840
<v Speaker 2>of course James explained it. He said, because there's debris

574
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:19.440
<v Speaker 2>escaping out of the square mesh, you know, the kind

575
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:24.000
<v Speaker 2>of the sort of debris that you pick off the

576
00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:29.360
<v Speaker 2>seabedstones and shells and bit pieces, which when it grinds

577
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.760
<v Speaker 2>around at the end of the cought end with the

578
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:37.519
<v Speaker 2>fish accumulated, it's rubbing against the fish. They're losing scales.

579
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:41.440
<v Speaker 2>They're not as good quality as the square mesh. And

580
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:44.000
<v Speaker 2>do you know what James did, He said to me,

581
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:47.039
<v Speaker 2>He said, do you know what, it's well worth keeping

582
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:51.760
<v Speaker 2>those two groups of fish separate on the market, because

583
00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:54.039
<v Speaker 2>we landed on the market at the end of the

584
00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:59.800
<v Speaker 2>week and lo and behold the square Now nobody knew no,

585
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:03.320
<v Speaker 2>but he knew and nobody had been forewarned that the

586
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:09.480
<v Speaker 2>two fish had been separated. Lo and behold, the square

587
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:15.519
<v Speaker 2>mesh fish was picking up about two to three pounds

588
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:20.639
<v Speaker 2>of box more than the diamond mesh caught fish. Now

589
00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:23.480
<v Speaker 2>we asked to buy, I asked the buyers. I asked

590
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:25.719
<v Speaker 2>the buyers afterwards, why did you buy that fish? And

591
00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:27.840
<v Speaker 2>he said, well, look, he said, the quality is better

592
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:30.639
<v Speaker 2>on them. I can see that. He said, I'd still

593
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:34.519
<v Speaker 2>buy the other fish. And then we told them that

594
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:38.760
<v Speaker 2>the difference was diamond and square. So that was an

595
00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:40.199
<v Speaker 2>amazing finding.

596
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:45.360
<v Speaker 1>That that's one way to get a fisherman's heart.

597
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, I'll tell you. I'll tell you the other

598
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:53.599
<v Speaker 2>way to get this heart. My biggest selling point, apart

599
00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:56.599
<v Speaker 2>from the fact that it shaved juvenile fish with the

600
00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:00.880
<v Speaker 2>full square mesh caught end, was that there was less

601
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:05.519
<v Speaker 2>sorting on deck because you didn't have the debris and

602
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:06.239
<v Speaker 2>you didn't have.

603
00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:10.119
<v Speaker 1>That would be an improvement on quality.

604
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:13.440
<v Speaker 2>As well, and that's an improvement on quality. But they

605
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:18.400
<v Speaker 2>had less work on deck. So every hall with the

606
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:22.199
<v Speaker 2>Harvard Streeber boys, they kept saying they were cheering by

607
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:24.039
<v Speaker 2>the end of the trips when they saw the squaremish

608
00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:26.119
<v Speaker 2>caught in coming up. Oh, we don't have much sorting.

609
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:28.960
<v Speaker 2>But they were still getting they were still getting the

610
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:34.239
<v Speaker 2>equivalent marketable marketable adult fish as they had got with

611
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:37.400
<v Speaker 2>the diamond mesh. So there were lots of selling points

612
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:39.800
<v Speaker 2>early on. And as time went on, of course, and

613
00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:45.679
<v Speaker 2>more and more skippers and crew got to learn about

614
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:48.519
<v Speaker 2>the square mesh, then they began to realize that there

615
00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:49.760
<v Speaker 2>were huge advantages.

616
00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:52.960
<v Speaker 1>But when you say that, Jock, is it not sad

617
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:58.119
<v Speaker 1>when you go back, so the vibes you were getting

618
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:01.480
<v Speaker 1>when they might sheet of.

619
00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Fat, it's very sad and.

620
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Well.

621
00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:10.719
<v Speaker 2>And you know, to pick up on your point about

622
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:21.280
<v Speaker 2>your Icelandic Johann the Icelandic scientists, Christensen and him saying,

623
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.599
<v Speaker 2>you know that they wanted research vessels because they were

624
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:29.599
<v Speaker 2>nice and clean and cozy and everything was nice, and

625
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:31.880
<v Speaker 2>they didn't want to go away in commercial boats because

626
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:35.639
<v Speaker 2>it was smelly and dirty. I had exactly the same

627
00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:40.239
<v Speaker 2>experience with a senior scientist in the marine lab in

628
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:45.480
<v Speaker 2>the early days of the square meshed when I mooted

629
00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:49.920
<v Speaker 2>that I start charting now. To put it to you, Jim,

630
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.360
<v Speaker 2>the charting hadn't taken place to any great extent in

631
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:55.360
<v Speaker 2>the marine lab, and they were kind of against it.

632
00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:59.039
<v Speaker 2>They wanted the research vessels to be used for the experiments.

633
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:02.599
<v Speaker 2>But I I persuaded them that I was going to

634
00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:06.159
<v Speaker 2>get greater quantities of fish. I could work twenty four

635
00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:08.239
<v Speaker 2>to seven on the commercial boats. And one of the

636
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:11.480
<v Speaker 2>senior scientists said to me one day, he said, he said,

637
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:13.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't understand why you want to go in commercial

638
00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:18.440
<v Speaker 2>boats chat because they're dirty, smelly fishermen now, And I

639
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:21.360
<v Speaker 2>said to it, I actually chastised him for that. I said,

640
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:26.880
<v Speaker 2>you mustn't speak that way. We're in a sense representing

641
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:31.880
<v Speaker 2>we're working for the industry, and that should be at

642
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:36.599
<v Speaker 2>the forefront of every scientist's thinking, that you're there for

643
00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:40.440
<v Speaker 2>the industry. Whatever aspect of work you're doing, whether it's

644
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:45.519
<v Speaker 2>stock assessment, environmental issues, whether it's selectivity work, you should

645
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:50.400
<v Speaker 2>always be mindful that you're working for the industry. And

646
00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:52.480
<v Speaker 2>he was taken aback by that. He was taken aback.

647
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.519
<v Speaker 2>He never ever said anything against the charters after that.

648
00:46:57.039 --> 00:47:00.599
<v Speaker 1>He didn't see himself as working for the industry.

649
00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:04.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, whether it was that Jim or not, I don't know,

650
00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:07.480
<v Speaker 2>but I was I was. I was really horrified by it,

651
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:13.920
<v Speaker 2>because well, listen, it was you know. And I think

652
00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:16.480
<v Speaker 2>to the other extent is that I think a lot

653
00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:18.440
<v Speaker 2>of scientists in those days, I don't know what it's

654
00:47:18.519 --> 00:47:20.280
<v Speaker 2>like these days. I've been away from it for a

655
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:23.280
<v Speaker 2>long long time, Jim, But those days, a lot of

656
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:27.159
<v Speaker 2>the scientists thought that the industry were perhaps, you know,

657
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:32.079
<v Speaker 2>not very intelligent. And nothing could be further from the truth.

658
00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:36.199
<v Speaker 2>The most intelligent people I have ever met on Earth

659
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:40.079
<v Speaker 2>are some of the fishermen that I went away with. Well,

660
00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:42.199
<v Speaker 2>in fact, all of the fishermen, I would say, I mean,

661
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:46.320
<v Speaker 2>look at Andrew Bremner on the boy Andrew and his father,

662
00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Norri I chartered. I chartered them a few times and

663
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:57.960
<v Speaker 2>couldn't have been better. And Norrie putting across understanding immediately

664
00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:01.159
<v Speaker 2>the the you know, the whole concept of guaremation and

665
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.400
<v Speaker 2>the need for it and pushing for it. And there

666
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:07.000
<v Speaker 2>was there was Andrew and and and John Gary A

667
00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:11.199
<v Speaker 2>Cup and Shetland. I mean, what a clever, clever man.

668
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:16.760
<v Speaker 2>And Sunbeam exactly yeah, and and and of course we

669
00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:20.480
<v Speaker 2>go back to Tom Harkas. I mean, my word, look

670
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:24.039
<v Speaker 2>at the man, how he developed I was on both

671
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:26.719
<v Speaker 2>his boats, by the way, the Orkney Reaver, which was

672
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:32.639
<v Speaker 2>a fantastic seaboat, but the Kila, I love the Kila.

673
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I've never been on a fishing boat quite like it

674
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:41.920
<v Speaker 2>in seakeeping qualities and oh man alive. It was just

675
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:44.800
<v Speaker 2>a superb, superb vessel.

676
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:52.400
<v Speaker 1>I love your passion and I think it's absolutely brilliant

677
00:48:52.599 --> 00:49:01.880
<v Speaker 1>the way you're giving recognition the guys commercial fishing boats.

678
00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:07.199
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, skippers that you worked, oh yeah for them,

679
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.559
<v Speaker 1>and they worked for the Marine Lab.

680
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:13.320
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah they were they were working for the lab,

681
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.679
<v Speaker 2>and and and they they enjoyed every minute of it.

682
00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:21.039
<v Speaker 2>I enjoyed every minute of it. But I mean, you know, Jim,

683
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:23.199
<v Speaker 2>I always said at the time, and I and I

684
00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:24.920
<v Speaker 2>still say it, and I'll say it to anyone who

685
00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:28.239
<v Speaker 2>wants to listen to me until they're bored silly, because

686
00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:29.760
<v Speaker 2>you know what I'm like when I get stuck on

687
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:30.480
<v Speaker 2>square mesh.

688
00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:35.599
<v Speaker 1>But I would say with that, you'll talk, and you'll

689
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:41.000
<v Speaker 1>talk until they're bold board silly, you said, but you

690
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:41.880
<v Speaker 1>won't stop then.

691
00:49:45.039 --> 00:49:47.800
<v Speaker 2>But but the thing was that the thing was Jim,

692
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:50.880
<v Speaker 2>that to me, all of the skippers, including a lot

693
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:52.960
<v Speaker 2>of people, are sure, including one or two in the

694
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:58.280
<v Speaker 2>Marine lab as well are the unsung heroes of the

695
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:02.800
<v Speaker 2>square Mesh story. Because the square mesh story was so

696
00:50:03.159 --> 00:50:08.559
<v Speaker 2>far away from anything that the industry had had ever

697
00:50:08.679 --> 00:50:13.880
<v Speaker 2>experienced that it must have been so difficult for them

698
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:16.079
<v Speaker 2>to accept in a lot of a lot of cases.

699
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:19.639
<v Speaker 2>And I mean, I'm spinning your story here of what

700
00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:23.920
<v Speaker 2>I saw in the industry, which was their acceptance was brilliant.

701
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:27.960
<v Speaker 1>What I could say to you, obviously, when you're talking

702
00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:30.480
<v Speaker 1>you get back to the eighties. I was much younger.

703
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:35.039
<v Speaker 1>I was involved to degree, not the same as the

704
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:39.440
<v Speaker 1>fisherman because I wasn't actively on the boat hands on

705
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:46.320
<v Speaker 1>that I was talking to you when you would commend

706
00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:49.079
<v Speaker 1>when the boat would we be come in into land

707
00:50:49.159 --> 00:50:52.559
<v Speaker 1>and be talking to the fisherman. And I can remember

708
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:56.599
<v Speaker 1>I just thought it was so exciting what it was

709
00:50:56.639 --> 00:51:00.960
<v Speaker 1>going to do for the future. So I know exactly

710
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:04.960
<v Speaker 1>what you're all what you're saying there, Jack, I know exactly.

711
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:08.320
<v Speaker 1>I can remember it clearly now.

712
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Jim, I don't want to embarrass You've given me. You've

713
00:51:11.960 --> 00:51:15.679
<v Speaker 2>given me the ideal opportunity to say that you you

714
00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:20.719
<v Speaker 2>are one of the unsung heroes. All those discussions that

715
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:22.639
<v Speaker 2>we had, I didn't know who I was talking to

716
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:26.519
<v Speaker 2>when when we were landing with the boats, except that

717
00:51:26.599 --> 00:51:29.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, you were buying from from the boats, the

718
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:31.440
<v Speaker 2>fish from the boats. And of course you know me,

719
00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:34.960
<v Speaker 2>I'll talk to anyone in the on the pier, anyone

720
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:37.079
<v Speaker 2>that comes up to me. In fact, I'll even grab

721
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:39.119
<v Speaker 2>people and start talking to them when they don't want

722
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:44.320
<v Speaker 2>to talk. And you, you, you listened, and I could

723
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:47.800
<v Speaker 2>see the excitement in your eyes. But Jim, I saw

724
00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:50.760
<v Speaker 2>that excitement in so many other people's eyes. And you

725
00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:54.719
<v Speaker 2>went on and you chatted about that to every fisherman

726
00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:57.400
<v Speaker 2>that you encounter. I know for a fact, because fishermen

727
00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:00.280
<v Speaker 2>would feed back to me, always speaking to Jim Kwi

728
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:02.039
<v Speaker 2>and he was telling me about the skirmish, tell me

729
00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:04.840
<v Speaker 2>something about it, and Jim was Shane, it's a great idea.

730
00:52:04.840 --> 00:52:07.559
<v Speaker 2>And Jim, you were all over the place. You were.

731
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:12.079
<v Speaker 2>You were definitely one of the unsung heroes that that

732
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:17.239
<v Speaker 2>that pushed it into into legislation eventually. But no, I

733
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:24.519
<v Speaker 2>mean a lot of people, a lot of people were involved. Uh.

734
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:29.719
<v Speaker 1>And but as well as that, Jack, I appreciate it,

735
00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:32.519
<v Speaker 1>and I thank you for that really kind words. I

736
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:37.079
<v Speaker 1>didn't see myself as that, but good back a wee

737
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:41.880
<v Speaker 1>bit one of the other points you made earlier, and

738
00:52:42.519 --> 00:52:46.519
<v Speaker 1>I really do respect the way that you speak so

739
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:51.599
<v Speaker 1>fondly and highly of the fisherman you had connections with

740
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:55.920
<v Speaker 1>on my goodness worth plenty that I'll go back. I

741
00:52:55.960 --> 00:53:00.639
<v Speaker 1>remember we were still in the EU midterm review, That's

742
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:03.880
<v Speaker 1>what it was, a midterm review the common Fisheries policy

743
00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:09.199
<v Speaker 1>in Shetland. I went up for it. I was we

744
00:53:09.199 --> 00:53:12.440
<v Speaker 1>were Tom and myself for coming back. We were in

745
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:16.840
<v Speaker 1>Sambra airport waiting for her plane and who was sitting

746
00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:23.519
<v Speaker 1>on the airport waiting for their plane? And honestly that

747
00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:26.760
<v Speaker 1>live with me to the rest of my days. The

748
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:32.079
<v Speaker 1>foresight and the knowledge and intelligence. Who was at three

749
00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:38.840
<v Speaker 1>guys everyone you mentioned, So I know and appreciate what

750
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:43.559
<v Speaker 1>you're saying and who you're talking about, Willly Hay, Tom

751
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:46.039
<v Speaker 1>Hay and Johnny Thompson.

752
00:53:47.039 --> 00:53:51.559
<v Speaker 2>Johnny Thompson. Yes, yes, three unsung heroes.

753
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh absolutely totally. And what I just come away from

754
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:05.639
<v Speaker 1>we were just buzzing so fool What foresaid? What foresaid?

755
00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:12.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, I'm big characters, Oh, huge characters, and

756
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:15.920
<v Speaker 2>you know every one of them should have been knighted.

757
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:20.760
<v Speaker 2>I firmly believe that that what they did for the industry,

758
00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:25.039
<v Speaker 2>and I sincerely wish and hope that the industry knew

759
00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:26.639
<v Speaker 2>it at the time, and I'm quite sure that a

760
00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:31.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of the industry did knew just what they sacrificed

761
00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:36.800
<v Speaker 2>for the industry and pushed for the industry. They were

762
00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:41.039
<v Speaker 2>all great, great men. And John Thompson, I'm glad you

763
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:46.039
<v Speaker 2>mentioned him because the Saint Kilda, the Saint Kilda, Oh

764
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:47.920
<v Speaker 2>what a beautiful boat.

765
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:52.239
<v Speaker 1>Wouldn't boat. And I remember one time they commend to

766
00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:54.400
<v Speaker 1>land in lochand that I was. I was buying a

767
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:56.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of fish at the time. At that time that

768
00:54:57.079 --> 00:55:02.360
<v Speaker 1>would be before that, that would be well before the eighties.

769
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:07.519
<v Speaker 1>That would be either late sixties or into the seventies.

770
00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:13.960
<v Speaker 1>And I was buying fish on and John came in

771
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:18.599
<v Speaker 1>to land. He had his fish on the market. Now

772
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:23.480
<v Speaker 1>there was a customer in Edinburgh, give me an order.

773
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:27.599
<v Speaker 1>He wanted fish, told me about the quality, the size,

774
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:30.679
<v Speaker 1>and I thought, well, I can't go wrong, I don't.

775
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:33.960
<v Speaker 1>I think it was before the St Kilda as well.

776
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:37.760
<v Speaker 1>I think it would be the Horizon. So I bought

777
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:43.079
<v Speaker 1>the fish the customer wanted from. It was Johnny's Thompson's

778
00:55:43.239 --> 00:55:46.599
<v Speaker 1>fish because I knew the quality, knew the exactly what

779
00:55:46.719 --> 00:55:50.400
<v Speaker 1>he wanted. So customer got the fish. He was happy.

780
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:53.519
<v Speaker 1>I was happy. And that was on the Thursday.

781
00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:54.159
<v Speaker 2>And you know that.

782
00:55:54.440 --> 00:55:58.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you remember at that time that guy's landed.

783
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.719
<v Speaker 1>There were fished out. They would land on the Thursday night,

784
00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:07.559
<v Speaker 1>go home, and then start again on the Sunday night.

785
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:13.320
<v Speaker 1>And I was back up on the Tuesday and Johnny

786
00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:17.320
<v Speaker 1>was in again to land and he came up. He

787
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:20.760
<v Speaker 1>came up to me and he says, how did you

788
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:24.880
<v Speaker 1>get on with my fish last week? And I says,

789
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:28.079
<v Speaker 1>I got on fine with it, Johnny. I had an

790
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:32.000
<v Speaker 1>order from a customer. He wanted them, so I got

791
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:37.920
<v Speaker 1>them at he's happy with them. So I don't know,

792
00:56:38.199 --> 00:56:44.440
<v Speaker 1>you're what you're getting at? I says, all good, you know,

793
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:48.320
<v Speaker 1>and he's lossy accent. Oh, he says, I'm fine. Pleased

794
00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:51.679
<v Speaker 1>to hear that, Jem. He says, I was a wee

795
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:54.079
<v Speaker 1>bit worried you paid too much for them.

796
00:56:56.599 --> 00:57:01.280
<v Speaker 2>It's amazing. When when did you ever hear but when

797
00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:04.760
<v Speaker 2>you ever hear a fishermen? Well that was that was

798
00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:07.280
<v Speaker 2>That was the man, that was.

799
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:11.440
<v Speaker 1>The because because on the market. George McKay it was

800
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:15.840
<v Speaker 1>you could say, mister Lochan where he owned the Lochander

801
00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:20.639
<v Speaker 1>fish selling company, and there was buyers coming up from Aberdeen.

802
00:57:20.840 --> 00:57:24.599
<v Speaker 1>Was was still operating a support buyers coming up from

803
00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:30.519
<v Speaker 1>Bucky Aberdeen all over. And of course here's me, young lad,

804
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:33.559
<v Speaker 1>bidding on the fish. Of course what do they do,

805
00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:39.480
<v Speaker 1>push me up, making me, force me to pay more

806
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:43.239
<v Speaker 1>pay And Johnny, when you think of it now, Jack,

807
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Johnny had he at the foresight that he could see

808
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:52.239
<v Speaker 1>it's new, young I wasn't buying a lot of that

809
00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:56.639
<v Speaker 1>size of headaches at the time, and here was him saying, well,

810
00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:58.320
<v Speaker 1>this could be the future.

811
00:57:59.079 --> 00:57:59.719
<v Speaker 2>And he was.

812
00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Rather than think it's more money for me, he thought, well,

813
00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:10.239
<v Speaker 1>I hope it doesn't damage in a way that he's

814
00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:13.559
<v Speaker 1>not he doesn't come in buying in the future.

815
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:16.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was very thoughtful that way.

816
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:19.079
<v Speaker 1>John That's that's the measure of the mind he was.

817
00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:22.039
<v Speaker 2>He was also the most patient skipper I think I've

818
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:24.960
<v Speaker 2>ever come across I did. I did a couple of

819
00:58:24.960 --> 00:58:28.960
<v Speaker 2>trips with him. One trip I was filming the Shane

820
00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:31.719
<v Speaker 2>Net now is Shane Net to film with the RCTV

821
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:36.119
<v Speaker 2>them remote control television vehicle is very, very difficult, and

822
00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:39.159
<v Speaker 2>it took us three weeks to get some good film

823
00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:43.480
<v Speaker 2>of juvenile fish escaping from the cot end. And I'll

824
00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:49.199
<v Speaker 2>forever be in John Thompson's dead for the patients that

825
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:52.960
<v Speaker 2>he displayed during that three weeks until we got the film.

826
00:58:53.199 --> 00:58:58.039
<v Speaker 2>When we got the film, he celebrated it far and wide.

827
00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:02.440
<v Speaker 2>He plastered that video anywhere and everywhere he could send

828
00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:07.480
<v Speaker 2>it because he was so enthused by the square mesh.

829
00:59:07.559 --> 00:59:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can't believe that.

830
00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:13.719
<v Speaker 2>Great. Great, I'll tell you. I'm sorry take up your

831
00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:17.880
<v Speaker 2>time here, but listen another funny story, Johnny. When we

832
00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:21.280
<v Speaker 2>were on that trip. You know how the rescue helicopters

833
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:24.360
<v Speaker 2>very often come over a fishing boat and ask permission

834
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:29.519
<v Speaker 2>to do some practice landings aboard. And that happened to us,

835
00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:33.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, regularly. Anyway, the Wessex I think it was

836
00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:35.519
<v Speaker 2>a Wessex helicopter at the time, I'm sure it was.

837
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:40.280
<v Speaker 2>It came over us and the radio comes on, skipper,

838
00:59:40.360 --> 00:59:43.360
<v Speaker 2>can we could we do a practice and John John

839
00:59:43.400 --> 00:59:45.559
<v Speaker 2>turns to me and he says, you okay for this, Jack,

840
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:48.039
<v Speaker 2>you know it's your charter. I said absolutely, I said no,

841
00:59:48.119 --> 00:59:51.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm in full encouragement of, you know, practicing for the

842
00:59:51.800 --> 00:59:57.519
<v Speaker 2>rescue services. Anyway, the winchman comes down onto the deck,

843
00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:01.800
<v Speaker 2>he releases and I get chatting to him. Well what

844
01:00:01.960 --> 01:00:04.400
<v Speaker 2>was I chatting to him about? Square Mesh? Of course,

845
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Jim and telling him, telling him, telling him what we

846
01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:10.760
<v Speaker 2>are doing. And I could see him glaze over gradually,

847
01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:15.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, and he started he started signaling, is his

848
01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:18.719
<v Speaker 2>pilot to come in and lift him off? And I

849
01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:21.039
<v Speaker 2>said to him, I said, just before he lifted off,

850
01:00:21.039 --> 01:00:25.440
<v Speaker 2>I said, look, you wouldn't mind taking the camera. I

851
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:28.719
<v Speaker 2>had a video camera on board and I was videoing

852
01:00:28.840 --> 01:00:31.199
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing, you know, And that's what I did.

853
01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:35.599
<v Speaker 2>I made videos of each trip and distributed it around. Anyway,

854
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:38.239
<v Speaker 2>I said to him, wouldn't mind taking the camera up

855
01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:42.119
<v Speaker 2>and filming us? Oh? He's just no bother at all.

856
01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:43.840
<v Speaker 2>He says, would you like to come up yourself and

857
01:00:43.880 --> 01:00:46.280
<v Speaker 2>do the filming yourself? I said, no, I better not

858
01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:48.639
<v Speaker 2>leave the vessel. It might not go down too well

859
01:00:48.639 --> 01:00:52.480
<v Speaker 2>in Edinburgh with the civil servants. If if Jack Robertson

860
01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:56.960
<v Speaker 2>was known to have flown off in a Wessex helicopter. Anyway,

861
01:00:56.840 --> 01:01:01.239
<v Speaker 2>the wenchman takes the camera and he does a brilliant

862
01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:04.159
<v Speaker 2>movie and he comes back down hands it over And

863
01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:09.880
<v Speaker 2>what a wonderful, wonderful video we made of that trip,

864
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:12.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, including the underwater video of the Square Mesh.

865
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:16.480
<v Speaker 2>And Johnny Thompson of course was delighted to get aerial

866
01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:19.719
<v Speaker 2>film of the shint Kilda as well, so he's very

867
01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:22.320
<v Speaker 2>proud to get that video at the end of the

868
01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:24.480
<v Speaker 2>day from us.

869
01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:29.320
<v Speaker 1>And fantastic Jack. If I could, maybe I wouldn't say

870
01:01:29.320 --> 01:01:33.480
<v Speaker 1>steal your thunder a bit, but maybe give you one

871
01:01:33.519 --> 01:01:37.760
<v Speaker 1>that you weren't aware of. Oh what's that? You know,

872
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:44.559
<v Speaker 1>when you're going on about your history lessons, you can

873
01:01:44.679 --> 01:01:51.360
<v Speaker 1>back the nineteen early nineteen nineteen twenty something. Yeah, yeah,

874
01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:53.400
<v Speaker 1>and then you go back to the eatings.

875
01:01:53.480 --> 01:01:56.960
<v Speaker 2>You said eighteen ninety three. I think it was eighteen

876
01:01:57.840 --> 01:01:59.079
<v Speaker 2>eighteen ninety five.

877
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:03.119
<v Speaker 1>I want to steal your thunder, but I'm going to

878
01:02:03.159 --> 01:02:10.760
<v Speaker 1>be looking at a paper when we finish our conversation. Yeah,

879
01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:14.599
<v Speaker 1>I think I'm going to send you on from the

880
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:22.119
<v Speaker 1>thirteen hundreds. Oh and it was it was talked in

881
01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:26.719
<v Speaker 1>parliament and sent to the King for approval, the then

882
01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:28.039
<v Speaker 1>king for approval.

883
01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh, Jim, this is great history.

884
01:02:30.039 --> 01:02:34.480
<v Speaker 1>Go on, go on, tell me, tell me not just

885
01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:37.639
<v Speaker 1>about immature fishing fish escaping.

886
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:41.119
<v Speaker 2>Amateur fish escaping. Ah, right, even in those days, even

887
01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:45.679
<v Speaker 2>in those days, it's always been the concern. I'm delighted.

888
01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:48.960
<v Speaker 2>I want to see that paper for sure. Oh, Jim,

889
01:02:49.239 --> 01:02:52.960
<v Speaker 2>that's that's wonderful. Well, do you know, Jim. And going

890
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:57.719
<v Speaker 2>from that thirteenth century issue, going from then to the future,

891
01:02:59.199 --> 01:03:02.519
<v Speaker 2>there's the young's coming through in the industry. Now. Their

892
01:03:02.679 --> 01:03:07.639
<v Speaker 2>future depends on letting juvenile fish escape from the from

893
01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:10.960
<v Speaker 2>the gear. They've got to look after their their future,

894
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:18.360
<v Speaker 2>and they've got to embrace selectivity in the in the nets.

895
01:03:19.519 --> 01:03:23.800
<v Speaker 1>To take that one. If I could just maybe ask

896
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:29.920
<v Speaker 1>the question what was happening in fisheries that made selectivity important?

897
01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh, without a doubt, it was the destruction of the

898
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:35.400
<v Speaker 2>juvenile fish.

899
01:03:35.480 --> 01:03:35.679
<v Speaker 1>Gim.

900
01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:40.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, skippers were showing me videos, uh and move

901
01:03:40.360 --> 01:03:44.360
<v Speaker 2>movie films, you know, the old sinny h stuff of

902
01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:48.400
<v Speaker 2>halls that they would have, and they would dump the

903
01:03:48.480 --> 01:03:53.000
<v Speaker 2>juvenile fish and that fish would lie on the surface dead. Okay,

904
01:03:53.079 --> 01:03:55.440
<v Speaker 2>the goals were getting them. It was entering the ecosystem,

905
01:03:55.480 --> 01:03:57.599
<v Speaker 2>but it wasn't doing any good for the fishing industry,

906
01:03:57.840 --> 01:04:03.440
<v Speaker 2>and those fishermen were coming to me and telling me

907
01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:09.719
<v Speaker 2>that long before, long before I started the selectivity work

908
01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:12.920
<v Speaker 2>in the mid nineteen seventies, when I was on the

909
01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:17.079
<v Speaker 2>research vessels, which, as I told you earlier, were crewed

910
01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:23.639
<v Speaker 2>by ex fishermen, inevitably I would ask about the history

911
01:04:23.719 --> 01:04:28.079
<v Speaker 2>of fishing, of their experiences, of the boats that they had,

912
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:30.800
<v Speaker 2>where they fished, and all the rest of it. And

913
01:04:31.239 --> 01:04:35.599
<v Speaker 2>every one of them started to tell me about the destruction,

914
01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:39.760
<v Speaker 2>and it was foremost in their mind, Gym foremost in

915
01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:42.239
<v Speaker 2>their mind, and they would take me to their houses

916
01:04:42.280 --> 01:04:47.159
<v Speaker 2>and show me the siny eight and I was flabbergasted

917
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:52.440
<v Speaker 2>because I had no real notion of that up to

918
01:04:52.519 --> 01:04:56.079
<v Speaker 2>that point. But then, as I said to you earlier,

919
01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I started diving with John and Graham, and I saw

920
01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:03.480
<v Speaker 2>the capture of the juvenile fish in the nets. So

921
01:05:03.599 --> 01:05:07.519
<v Speaker 2>I was linking those videos from the fishermen to what

922
01:05:07.599 --> 01:05:11.960
<v Speaker 2>I was saying, and that's what moved me into this

923
01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:20.679
<v Speaker 2>whole area of selectivity, because I thought we have to

924
01:05:20.119 --> 01:05:24.679
<v Speaker 2>we must do something to save the juvenile fish, and

925
01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:28.679
<v Speaker 2>that was my driving force. In fact, I became very blinkered. Jim.

926
01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:34.360
<v Speaker 2>It has to be said about selectivity in general now

927
01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:38.239
<v Speaker 2>and square mesh in particular, as you know. But it

928
01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:43.239
<v Speaker 2>wasn't just the square mesh I discovered. And this I

929
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:46.679
<v Speaker 2>can claim fame for without a shadow of a doubt,

930
01:05:47.679 --> 01:05:54.440
<v Speaker 2>that the selectivity of long extension pieces in troll mates

931
01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:59.800
<v Speaker 2>is very poor and if you shorten the extension piece up,

932
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:02.480
<v Speaker 2>you're beginning to open the meshes up a little bit.

933
01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:04.400
<v Speaker 2>It's what they do with the design of the troll

934
01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:08.800
<v Speaker 2>et cetera, et cetera. And the escape of juveniles was

935
01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:12.599
<v Speaker 2>a bit better. Now, that was a non starter. I

936
01:06:12.639 --> 01:06:15.280
<v Speaker 2>could never introduce that to the fishery because the fishermen

937
01:06:15.440 --> 01:06:20.159
<v Speaker 2>need the long extension to get from the nets are

938
01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:23.320
<v Speaker 2>taken over the stern of the boat and the cod

939
01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:26.800
<v Speaker 2>end is taken up for it always on the starboard

940
01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:31.400
<v Speaker 2>side to the fishhold, and they had to have that

941
01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:37.800
<v Speaker 2>long extension to get round. So although that discovery was

942
01:06:37.840 --> 01:06:42.679
<v Speaker 2>extremely interesting in terms of selectivity and improving selectivity, the

943
01:06:42.719 --> 01:06:47.599
<v Speaker 2>one that did work and is in legislation now is

944
01:06:48.719 --> 01:06:55.920
<v Speaker 2>the reduced meshes on the circumference of the cordent. And

945
01:06:56.079 --> 01:06:58.559
<v Speaker 2>that was an experiment that I set up in the

946
01:06:58.760 --> 01:07:01.360
<v Speaker 2>again in the early night in eighties in tandem with

947
01:07:01.400 --> 01:07:03.800
<v Speaker 2>all the squirmish stuff that I was doing. So what

948
01:07:03.840 --> 01:07:07.360
<v Speaker 2>the fishermen were doing was they were using a large

949
01:07:07.480 --> 01:07:11.760
<v Speaker 2>number of meshes on the round on the circumforts of

950
01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:15.360
<v Speaker 2>the content, and that would close the meshes up tight.

951
01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:19.440
<v Speaker 2>And I asked fishermen why they were doing that, and

952
01:07:19.480 --> 01:07:24.440
<v Speaker 2>they said, well, it's catching me more fish. I said, okay,

953
01:07:24.800 --> 01:07:29.000
<v Speaker 2>but it's is it catching you more marketable fish? Well,

954
01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:33.079
<v Speaker 2>not really marketable, but it's catching more juveniles. And I said,

955
01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:35.559
<v Speaker 2>but why would you want to catch the juveniles because

956
01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:40.079
<v Speaker 2>they said, it proves to us that the net the

957
01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:46.440
<v Speaker 2>troll is fishing correctly. Now think on that a moment, Jim,

958
01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:53.280
<v Speaker 2>Is that not astonishing? They had the conception, that I

959
01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:56.159
<v Speaker 2>suppose in their minds rightly, that because they were catching

960
01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:59.000
<v Speaker 2>the juveniles as well as the adults, then the net

961
01:07:59.320 --> 01:08:01.480
<v Speaker 2>was on the botto, the foot rope was tight on

962
01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:04.800
<v Speaker 2>the bottom, it was capturing what it needed to capture.

963
01:08:05.000 --> 01:08:08.400
<v Speaker 2>Nothing was getting out and away from the front of

964
01:08:08.440 --> 01:08:10.760
<v Speaker 2>the troll that they were pulling everything in and it

965
01:08:10.800 --> 01:08:15.360
<v Speaker 2>was getting down into the content. And I said, well,

966
01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:19.479
<v Speaker 2>but then you know these are under the minimum landing

967
01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:23.560
<v Speaker 2>size juvenile fish. You're dumping them so it's a complete

968
01:08:23.560 --> 01:08:27.000
<v Speaker 2>and utter way, And they said yes. And I spoke

969
01:08:27.079 --> 01:08:32.279
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of skippers who used that explanation, and

970
01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:35.560
<v Speaker 2>that was in the nineteen seventies. I never ever heard

971
01:08:36.359 --> 01:08:39.399
<v Speaker 2>a skippers or any fishermen say that in the nineteen

972
01:08:39.399 --> 01:08:44.359
<v Speaker 2>eighties or early nineteen nineties, because I believe that it

973
01:08:44.479 --> 01:08:49.720
<v Speaker 2>was the film videos that John Mayne and Graham Sangster

974
01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:55.880
<v Speaker 2>and I were producing on the various experiments that we

975
01:08:55.880 --> 01:08:59.960
<v Speaker 2>were doing, which was showing the fishermen that they did

976
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:03.079
<v Speaker 2>need to capture the juvenile fish to show them that

977
01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:04.039
<v Speaker 2>the net was fishing.

978
01:09:04.479 --> 01:09:08.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and there was. Because I was going to ask you,

979
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:13.119
<v Speaker 1>why were a juvenile such a concern because we're traditional

980
01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:14.119
<v Speaker 1>nets failing.

981
01:09:15.159 --> 01:09:24.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, now, it was of the time, gym. They weren't

982
01:09:24.319 --> 01:09:28.359
<v Speaker 2>failing because the mesh, the minimum mesh size was what

983
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:32.920
<v Speaker 2>it was, which was seventy and eighty seventy in the

984
01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:37.960
<v Speaker 2>pron trolls and eighty in the whitefish trolls. It was

985
01:09:38.039 --> 01:09:43.159
<v Speaker 2>of the time. And I suppose esoterically you can say,

986
01:09:43.199 --> 01:09:47.439
<v Speaker 2>yes they were failing, failing the juvenile fish and retaining them, yes,

987
01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:52.560
<v Speaker 2>but they weren't failing the fishermen in a sense because

988
01:09:53.119 --> 01:09:56.159
<v Speaker 2>they had no conception until they saw the video film

989
01:09:56.199 --> 01:09:58.039
<v Speaker 2>of the nets. They had no conception of really what

990
01:09:58.159 --> 01:09:59.399
<v Speaker 2>was going on down there.

991
01:09:59.399 --> 01:10:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Although yeah, well I could I say maybe stly slightly.

992
01:10:06.039 --> 01:10:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Did personman already understand before science stepped you say.

993
01:10:12.840 --> 01:10:16.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. The industry understood

994
01:10:16.720 --> 01:10:20.159
<v Speaker 2>absolutely before before before the industry And listen, if I

995
01:10:20.159 --> 01:10:23.439
<v Speaker 2>can just go back, because I think something I said

996
01:10:23.479 --> 01:10:26.239
<v Speaker 2>a few moments ago was was was not quite right.

997
01:10:26.359 --> 01:10:29.880
<v Speaker 2>I said something like, you know, the fisherman had no

998
01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:33.319
<v Speaker 2>conception of what was going on on the seabeds. Their

999
01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:36.960
<v Speaker 2>net was was being towed over the ground. That's not true. Actually,

1000
01:10:37.479 --> 01:10:40.520
<v Speaker 2>the fisherman knew an awful lot of what was going

1001
01:10:40.560 --> 01:10:46.880
<v Speaker 2>on by telltale signs, damage to natch, wearing tear and

1002
01:10:47.079 --> 01:10:51.800
<v Speaker 2>chain on on the wing ends, wearing tear on the

1003
01:10:52.119 --> 01:10:56.520
<v Speaker 2>foot rope and so on, meshed fish through certain sections

1004
01:10:56.560 --> 01:10:59.279
<v Speaker 2>of the of the troll. You know what, you know

1005
01:10:59.319 --> 01:11:03.039
<v Speaker 2>what I'm talking about. It was telltale signs that were

1006
01:11:03.199 --> 01:11:08.880
<v Speaker 2>demonstrating to fishermen that something wasn't quite right, one of

1007
01:11:08.880 --> 01:11:13.199
<v Speaker 2>which was the amount of juvenile fish that were capturing

1008
01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:18.319
<v Speaker 2>and also the meshed juvenile fish that were meshed in

1009
01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:22.920
<v Speaker 2>the extension pieces in particular, So that was the fish

1010
01:11:23.000 --> 01:11:26.520
<v Speaker 2>that got pinched by the netting as they were trying

1011
01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:31.279
<v Speaker 2>to escape but couldn't, and that came to the surface,

1012
01:11:31.720 --> 01:11:35.600
<v Speaker 2>and the fishermen saw that. So the industry were, without doubt,

1013
01:11:36.680 --> 01:11:41.479
<v Speaker 2>way ahead of the scientists in understanding. I suppose that

1014
01:11:41.640 --> 01:11:45.760
<v Speaker 2>the damage that was being done by the capture of

1015
01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:50.960
<v Speaker 2>juvenile fish in particular, and the damage that that was

1016
01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:56.720
<v Speaker 2>subsequently doing to the stalk sizes I see.

1017
01:11:56.840 --> 01:11:59.880
<v Speaker 1>I know it made seem as if it's a repetition,

1018
01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:04.479
<v Speaker 1>and you've already spoken about, but it's not. With the

1019
01:12:04.520 --> 01:12:11.239
<v Speaker 1>square mesh. Where do you did the square mesh? Forget

1020
01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:15.840
<v Speaker 1>we're talking now thirteen hundred, eighteen hundred and nineteen hundred,

1021
01:12:16.039 --> 01:12:19.479
<v Speaker 1>forget all that history, but with yourself, where did the

1022
01:12:19.520 --> 01:12:21.960
<v Speaker 1>square mesh idea come from?

1023
01:12:23.159 --> 01:12:28.960
<v Speaker 2>It? It came, do you mean? For me? For me,

1024
01:12:30.439 --> 01:12:35.479
<v Speaker 2>without any doubt, it just came with the amount of

1025
01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:42.239
<v Speaker 2>thinking that I was doing during my earlier years in

1026
01:12:42.319 --> 01:12:47.800
<v Speaker 2>the lab about the design of trolls. So my remit

1027
01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:51.960
<v Speaker 2>was to improve troll design, to make it more economical,

1028
01:12:52.039 --> 01:12:55.479
<v Speaker 2>to make it more efficient for the fishing fishermen. And

1029
01:12:55.560 --> 01:12:58.239
<v Speaker 2>it was just the thinking that I was doing about

1030
01:12:58.239 --> 01:13:01.199
<v Speaker 2>the opening of meshes, or the lack of opening in

1031
01:13:01.239 --> 01:13:04.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot of cases, and the retention of juvenile fish,

1032
01:13:04.840 --> 01:13:08.039
<v Speaker 2>and thinking how can I open up the mesh, and

1033
01:13:08.159 --> 01:13:11.680
<v Speaker 2>just fiddling about with little bits of netting at home,

1034
01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:14.359
<v Speaker 2>in the marine lab, in my office, all over the

1035
01:13:14.359 --> 01:13:17.239
<v Speaker 2>bloody place. I mean, people in the family were sick

1036
01:13:17.319 --> 01:13:23.199
<v Speaker 2>of me fiddling about with bitsinet because I was determined

1037
01:13:23.560 --> 01:13:28.119
<v Speaker 2>how do I do this? And just turning diamond mesh

1038
01:13:28.560 --> 01:13:32.520
<v Speaker 2>on the square How simple could that be? And as

1039
01:13:32.520 --> 01:13:35.640
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned earlier, looking at hexagonal mesh as well, but

1040
01:13:35.720 --> 01:13:39.479
<v Speaker 2>that was a non starter because of the complication of

1041
01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:45.960
<v Speaker 2>repairing it. But it started with me. Now it's interesting

1042
01:13:46.039 --> 01:13:51.159
<v Speaker 2>because and again this is working against my desire to

1043
01:13:51.199 --> 01:13:54.720
<v Speaker 2>have discovered square metch, which I didn't. But the first

1044
01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:58.920
<v Speaker 2>trip that I had in a gold Seeker, James Calder,

1045
01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:03.520
<v Speaker 2>a Bucky fisherman ex fisherman who was skipper of the

1046
01:14:03.560 --> 01:14:08.039
<v Speaker 2>gold Seeker and the crew watched the video. As I

1047
01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:12.479
<v Speaker 2>was flying the RCTV, I would control it to fly

1048
01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:15.840
<v Speaker 2>around the cod end and the first time that they

1049
01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:21.479
<v Speaker 2>saw the squaremish cought end, they were flabbergasted and James

1050
01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:26.239
<v Speaker 2>immediately almost immediately said to me. He said, Jack, that's

1051
01:14:26.319 --> 01:14:30.560
<v Speaker 2>something that must go into legislation to let more juvenile

1052
01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:33.640
<v Speaker 2>fish escape. And we got talking about it afterwards, and

1053
01:14:33.840 --> 01:14:38.479
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of discussion, and James described to

1054
01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:43.039
<v Speaker 2>me that square mesh had been used before, and I thought, oh, no,

1055
01:14:43.720 --> 01:14:47.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm blown out of the water. Haven't discovered squaremish. And

1056
01:14:47.399 --> 01:14:51.760
<v Speaker 2>what it was was he himself had actually used squaremish

1057
01:14:51.800 --> 01:14:54.720
<v Speaker 2>behind the foot rope of the troll where they were

1058
01:14:54.760 --> 01:14:59.479
<v Speaker 2>fishing over shell ground or stony ground. The shells and

1059
01:14:59.520 --> 01:15:03.640
<v Speaker 2>the stone would drop through the very large square meshes

1060
01:15:03.640 --> 01:15:06.720
<v Speaker 2>that they would use, and it would just be one

1061
01:15:06.840 --> 01:15:10.680
<v Speaker 2>or two or three rows, and then the diamond mesh

1062
01:15:10.680 --> 01:15:13.680
<v Speaker 2>would be attached to the back end of that, so

1063
01:15:13.760 --> 01:15:18.039
<v Speaker 2>the stones and the shells would come over the foot rope,

1064
01:15:18.359 --> 01:15:22.079
<v Speaker 2>fall through the square mesh and not be caught in

1065
01:15:22.119 --> 01:15:27.600
<v Speaker 2>the net obviously, because of course they knew that if

1066
01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:29.600
<v Speaker 2>the stones and shellfish got back to the court entend,

1067
01:15:29.640 --> 01:15:34.199
<v Speaker 2>it would destroy their catch. It would completely destroy the

1068
01:15:34.279 --> 01:15:38.319
<v Speaker 2>quality of the fish and the nephrops, the prawns that

1069
01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:41.239
<v Speaker 2>they were fishing. So there you go. He told me that,

1070
01:15:41.479 --> 01:15:44.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, square mesh had been used in another application

1071
01:15:44.119 --> 01:15:47.880
<v Speaker 2>which was brilliant, and it adds to the whole history

1072
01:15:47.079 --> 01:15:50.359
<v Speaker 2>of the Squaremish story.

1073
01:15:50.840 --> 01:15:54.680
<v Speaker 1>And obviously lots of what you're saying, it all makes

1074
01:15:54.720 --> 01:15:59.239
<v Speaker 1>practical sense. Why did it make scientific sense?

1075
01:16:00.199 --> 01:16:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, it made shine of sense because the now I

1076
01:16:07.960 --> 01:16:10.680
<v Speaker 2>need to get a little bit technical here and try

1077
01:16:10.720 --> 01:16:16.640
<v Speaker 2>and describe graphs. Each each time we towed the content,

1078
01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:20.199
<v Speaker 2>we would capture the juvenile fish that came out of

1079
01:16:20.199 --> 01:16:23.920
<v Speaker 2>the content, so we knew what had escaped and what

1080
01:16:24.079 --> 01:16:26.960
<v Speaker 2>had been retained in the content, and we could build

1081
01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:34.640
<v Speaker 2>a graph which displayed fish length, you know, starting at zero, five, ten, fifteen,

1082
01:16:34.760 --> 01:16:39.159
<v Speaker 2>twenty centimeters, thirty centimeters and so on on the bottom

1083
01:16:39.199 --> 01:16:41.960
<v Speaker 2>of the graph, and then on the on the vertical

1084
01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:46.760
<v Speaker 2>axis of the graph, you would have the proportion retained.

1085
01:16:47.680 --> 01:16:50.600
<v Speaker 2>So that was simply comparing what it has had escaped

1086
01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:54.399
<v Speaker 2>at each size of fish against what it'd been retained

1087
01:16:54.560 --> 01:16:59.960
<v Speaker 2>in the content. So you built a picture of retain

1088
01:17:00.439 --> 01:17:07.520
<v Speaker 2>against escapes. And that graph usually pretty much always followed

1089
01:17:07.600 --> 01:17:13.920
<v Speaker 2>an esh shaped curve, what's called an ogive in the trades.

1090
01:17:13.960 --> 01:17:17.199
<v Speaker 2>So it was an ish shaped curve, so that when

1091
01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:20.920
<v Speaker 2>you got up to say forty centimeters, it would be

1092
01:17:21.119 --> 01:17:27.359
<v Speaker 2>at one hundred percent retention of forty centimeter fish, whereas

1093
01:17:27.359 --> 01:17:30.279
<v Speaker 2>if you went down to the juvenile fish size, let's

1094
01:17:30.319 --> 01:17:36.960
<v Speaker 2>say fifteen centimeters, you would be further down the ogive

1095
01:17:37.319 --> 01:17:43.000
<v Speaker 2>curve to a position that would suggest at fifteen centimeters

1096
01:17:43.680 --> 01:17:53.079
<v Speaker 2>you had retained twenty percent of the juveniles and eighty

1097
01:17:53.159 --> 01:17:57.960
<v Speaker 2>percent of them had escaped. Now, for a diamond mesh,

1098
01:17:58.039 --> 01:18:02.399
<v Speaker 2>cod end of the sizes that I was experimenting with,

1099
01:18:03.119 --> 01:18:08.239
<v Speaker 2>the ogive was very flat, usually very flat, so that

1100
01:18:08.439 --> 01:18:16.359
<v Speaker 2>even at the juvenile fish sizes of you know, ten, eleven, twelve, thirty, forty, fifteen, sixteen,

1101
01:18:16.359 --> 01:18:23.640
<v Speaker 2>seventeen centimeters, the retained percentage could be as high as

1102
01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:31.079
<v Speaker 2>thirty forty fifty percent. Still, now here's the croux. When

1103
01:18:31.760 --> 01:18:38.079
<v Speaker 2>we used the square mesh. Firstly, the ogive was always steeper.

1104
01:18:39.279 --> 01:18:45.479
<v Speaker 2>In other words, the cutoff between retaining juveniles and retaining

1105
01:18:46.279 --> 01:18:52.079
<v Speaker 2>marketable species gave a much steeper ogive, so that you

1106
01:18:52.159 --> 01:18:56.520
<v Speaker 2>found when you went down to fifteen centimeter size of

1107
01:18:56.760 --> 01:19:02.199
<v Speaker 2>Haddacker whiting, let's say, there was zero retention of that

1108
01:19:02.319 --> 01:19:05.880
<v Speaker 2>size of fish, meaning all the juveniles of that side

1109
01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:13.439
<v Speaker 2>size had escaped from the cotted. Now, because because the

1110
01:19:14.159 --> 01:19:20.760
<v Speaker 2>ogive was much steeper, and because there was more of

1111
01:19:20.800 --> 01:19:28.159
<v Speaker 2>a discernible cutoff between retained juveniles or shall I say,

1112
01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:34.720
<v Speaker 2>escaped juveniles, as opposed to retained marketable fish, you were

1113
01:19:34.840 --> 01:19:42.319
<v Speaker 2>ending up with more marketable fish at the equivalent size

1114
01:19:42.880 --> 01:19:46.319
<v Speaker 2>of square mesh compared to diamond mesh. So for an

1115
01:19:46.359 --> 01:19:50.640
<v Speaker 2>eighty milimeter square mesh, which was equivalent roughly to a

1116
01:19:50.720 --> 01:19:55.399
<v Speaker 2>ninety milimeter diamond mesh, sometimes a bit more actually, but

1117
01:19:55.520 --> 01:19:59.880
<v Speaker 2>the od jive, the ogive for the diamond mesh would

1118
01:19:59.880 --> 01:20:04.479
<v Speaker 2>be very shallow, and the ogive for the square mesh

1119
01:20:04.920 --> 01:20:10.800
<v Speaker 2>would be quite steep, So the cutoff could be manipulated

1120
01:20:10.840 --> 01:20:14.239
<v Speaker 2>in a way with the mesh size to give you

1121
01:20:14.399 --> 01:20:20.079
<v Speaker 2>a cutoff point for the minimum size of fish that

1122
01:20:20.239 --> 01:20:23.760
<v Speaker 2>was required by law to be retained. And at that

1123
01:20:23.880 --> 01:20:26.319
<v Speaker 2>time for haddock it was, as I recall, it was

1124
01:20:26.359 --> 01:20:32.000
<v Speaker 2>twenty seven centimeters. So for the eighty millimeter square I

1125
01:20:32.159 --> 01:20:38.079
<v Speaker 2>was getting pretty near most of the juvenile escaping out

1126
01:20:38.119 --> 01:20:42.720
<v Speaker 2>of the square mesh. But because it was a steeper ogive,

1127
01:20:42.920 --> 01:20:46.760
<v Speaker 2>I was getting more more marketable fish. And that was

1128
01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:48.039
<v Speaker 2>the incredible thing about it.

1129
01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:52.960
<v Speaker 1>The other incredible thing that I would ask you, Jacket,

1130
01:20:53.399 --> 01:20:58.119
<v Speaker 1>why was it controversial? This made common sense.

1131
01:20:58.800 --> 01:21:04.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, well okay, I of course

1132
01:21:04.279 --> 01:21:07.039
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't call it controversial because I don't think anything

1133
01:21:07.079 --> 01:21:15.479
<v Speaker 2>that is designed to improve conservation controversial. In my mind,

1134
01:21:15.479 --> 01:21:20.840
<v Speaker 2>it's not controversial, but it was controversial. Yeah, But to

1135
01:21:20.960 --> 01:21:23.880
<v Speaker 2>many people it was controversial. And I used to say

1136
01:21:23.880 --> 01:21:26.560
<v Speaker 2>to them, why is it controversial? Do you not want

1137
01:21:26.600 --> 01:21:30.720
<v Speaker 2>to improve the escape of juvenile fish? They would answer yes,

1138
01:21:30.800 --> 01:21:33.199
<v Speaker 2>of course we do. And I said, well, you know

1139
01:21:33.720 --> 01:21:34.760
<v Speaker 2>why is it controversial?

1140
01:21:34.760 --> 01:21:34.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh?

1141
01:21:34.920 --> 01:21:37.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's because it's so different. And I say, well,

1142
01:21:38.039 --> 01:21:43.000
<v Speaker 2>if the fishing industry accept it, then it's not controversial.

1143
01:21:44.479 --> 01:21:48.199
<v Speaker 2>Have you spoken to any fishermen that are against it

1144
01:21:48.279 --> 01:21:53.159
<v Speaker 2>completely and utterly? No, I haven't. Well I hadn't either,

1145
01:21:53.319 --> 01:21:55.600
<v Speaker 2>because most of the fishermen that I spoke to who

1146
01:21:55.680 --> 01:21:58.479
<v Speaker 2>I showed the movie to, the underwater video showed the

1147
01:21:58.560 --> 01:22:01.960
<v Speaker 2>data to convinced all the skippers that I went away

1148
01:22:01.960 --> 01:22:04.800
<v Speaker 2>in the commercial charters with, every single one of them,

1149
01:22:04.880 --> 01:22:07.960
<v Speaker 2>were convinced totally that it worked and that it showed

1150
01:22:08.000 --> 01:22:11.279
<v Speaker 2>the attributes that I'm discussing in terms of retaining more

1151
01:22:11.319 --> 01:22:15.520
<v Speaker 2>marketable at certain sizes, letting much more juvenile, many more

1152
01:22:15.640 --> 01:22:20.880
<v Speaker 2>juveniles escape, et cetera, et cetera. So I could to

1153
01:22:20.920 --> 01:22:26.239
<v Speaker 2>this day, I cannot understand why people thought it to

1154
01:22:26.279 --> 01:22:31.640
<v Speaker 2>be controversial. In fact, many many of those people thought

1155
01:22:31.680 --> 01:22:39.359
<v Speaker 2>it's so controversial that they tried to stop it going

1156
01:22:39.359 --> 01:22:45.039
<v Speaker 2>into legislation. Now I'm talking about, you know, the odd

1157
01:22:46.520 --> 01:22:52.560
<v Speaker 2>scientist and the odd civil servant. Now, the fishing industry

1158
01:22:52.600 --> 01:22:55.359
<v Speaker 2>came into play, and I've described meetings I had with

1159
01:22:55.399 --> 01:22:57.199
<v Speaker 2>Willie Hay and all the rest of it. When they

1160
01:22:57.199 --> 01:23:00.800
<v Speaker 2>went back to the civil servants, they said, well, you know,

1161
01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:03.720
<v Speaker 2>we want the square mesh. And the civil servants said, yes,

1162
01:23:03.760 --> 01:23:07.920
<v Speaker 2>but you know, aren't their problems of strength and so

1163
01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:10.159
<v Speaker 2>on and so forth. Yes, but that's all been solved

1164
01:23:10.239 --> 01:23:14.079
<v Speaker 2>by the Marine Lab. The Marine lap has done strength tests.

1165
01:23:14.199 --> 01:23:20.279
<v Speaker 2>They've devised means of necessarily strengthening up the salvages of

1166
01:23:20.319 --> 01:23:25.199
<v Speaker 2>the square mesh, running ropes along the mesh to ensure

1167
01:23:25.239 --> 01:23:28.479
<v Speaker 2>that it was strong enough to lift caught ins of

1168
01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:31.439
<v Speaker 2>fish aboard, et cetera, et cetera. So that's all been solved.

1169
01:23:31.439 --> 01:23:34.640
<v Speaker 2>So why why is it still controversial in your mind?

1170
01:23:35.119 --> 01:23:43.199
<v Speaker 2>And gradually the fishing industry itself persuaded the legislators to

1171
01:23:45.319 --> 01:23:49.319
<v Speaker 2>accept that the industry itself didn't find it controversial that

1172
01:23:49.359 --> 01:23:52.760
<v Speaker 2>they were quite happy with it because they could see

1173
01:23:52.920 --> 01:23:56.199
<v Speaker 2>they could see the benefit of its introduction in terms

1174
01:23:56.239 --> 01:24:01.279
<v Speaker 2>of letting more juveniles escape, letting the babies, the baby's escape,

1175
01:24:02.159 --> 01:24:04.039
<v Speaker 2>and it became the mantra.

1176
01:24:04.840 --> 01:24:08.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and if I could ask you, Joe for a moment,

1177
01:24:08.960 --> 01:24:14.439
<v Speaker 1>to take your scientist start off and just give us

1178
01:24:15.880 --> 01:24:23.039
<v Speaker 1>our listeners are insane because obviously, as a scientists, you're

1179
01:24:23.079 --> 01:24:28.920
<v Speaker 1>going on what we described earlier, dirty fishing, smelly fishing boats.

1180
01:24:29.239 --> 01:24:34.079
<v Speaker 1>What was your experiences like going to see any of

1181
01:24:34.079 --> 01:24:37.560
<v Speaker 1>the practical problems when you were there, if there were

1182
01:24:37.640 --> 01:24:46.600
<v Speaker 1>gear failures, bad weather, you must have some memories that well.

1183
01:24:46.239 --> 01:24:49.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, absolutely, there are a lot of memories. I mean,

1184
01:24:49.560 --> 01:24:52.640
<v Speaker 2>the predominant memory for me has always been just how good,

1185
01:24:53.439 --> 01:24:56.760
<v Speaker 2>how nice the fishermen were, the skippers and their crews were,

1186
01:24:57.479 --> 01:25:01.079
<v Speaker 2>and also how how nice the boats were. The boats

1187
01:25:01.079 --> 01:25:03.800
<v Speaker 2>weren't smelly, dirty, The boats were some of the finest,

1188
01:25:03.800 --> 01:25:07.880
<v Speaker 2>cleanest vessels I've ever been on. Because fishermen are proud

1189
01:25:07.960 --> 01:25:10.680
<v Speaker 2>of their ships, they're proud of their vessels, they're proud

1190
01:25:10.680 --> 01:25:14.279
<v Speaker 2>of what they do, and that showed through an abundance

1191
01:25:14.359 --> 01:25:17.720
<v Speaker 2>to me in every single boat that I went on. However,

1192
01:25:18.199 --> 01:25:23.720
<v Speaker 2>there were some funny incidences, and one of which I

1193
01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:28.399
<v Speaker 2>to this day dispute completely and utterly. However, with tongue

1194
01:25:28.439 --> 01:25:31.479
<v Speaker 2>in cheek, I have to add and Tom, I think

1195
01:25:31.560 --> 01:25:37.000
<v Speaker 2>one of one of your other guests, Tom from what

1196
01:25:37.479 --> 01:25:43.840
<v Speaker 2>you called catch Cam, his Tom Rossiter. He relates this

1197
01:25:43.960 --> 01:25:48.399
<v Speaker 2>story because he was told it by James May. Jim May,

1198
01:25:48.760 --> 01:25:53.159
<v Speaker 2>the skipper of Harvest Reaper. Well, Jim, as you know,

1199
01:25:53.359 --> 01:25:56.439
<v Speaker 2>was the first boat that I went away on and

1200
01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:02.720
<v Speaker 2>and we did a fantastic trip. That was a great trip,

1201
01:26:02.760 --> 01:26:06.239
<v Speaker 2>and I went on many trips with Jim May. However,

1202
01:26:06.920 --> 01:26:09.319
<v Speaker 2>on one of the trips I had a lot of

1203
01:26:09.760 --> 01:26:14.199
<v Speaker 2>changing of cod ends and extension pieces, because not only

1204
01:26:14.359 --> 01:26:16.079
<v Speaker 2>was I looking at the square mesh, but I was

1205
01:26:16.119 --> 01:26:19.640
<v Speaker 2>looking at the idea of long and short extensions and

1206
01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:25.199
<v Speaker 2>full cought ends and squaremish cought ends and so on.

1207
01:26:26.039 --> 01:26:29.920
<v Speaker 2>And Jim and I, I mean I always got involved

1208
01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:33.159
<v Speaker 2>in the practical side of changing the gear over whinning

1209
01:26:33.319 --> 01:26:37.720
<v Speaker 2>if I could. And with Jim, he enjoyed working on

1210
01:26:37.800 --> 01:26:40.159
<v Speaker 2>the deck with me. So while the crew were sorting

1211
01:26:40.239 --> 01:26:44.199
<v Speaker 2>the catch, Jim and I would change the cod end

1212
01:26:44.720 --> 01:26:46.439
<v Speaker 2>or the extension piece or whatever.

1213
01:26:46.520 --> 01:26:46.880
<v Speaker 1>It was.

1214
01:26:47.159 --> 01:26:49.640
<v Speaker 2>So Jim and I are chatting away and having a

1215
01:26:49.720 --> 01:26:52.920
<v Speaker 2>grand old time. It's a lovely day off Fraser Bragh

1216
01:26:53.560 --> 01:26:56.720
<v Speaker 2>and the sun was shining, and we do our job

1217
01:26:57.319 --> 01:27:03.960
<v Speaker 2>of attaching a new a different extension to the extension

1218
01:27:04.960 --> 01:27:08.600
<v Speaker 2>of the troll that was about to be shot again

1219
01:27:08.720 --> 01:27:13.760
<v Speaker 2>once the crew had sorted the fish out, so the

1220
01:27:13.920 --> 01:27:16.520
<v Speaker 2>net is shot away, so the core end goes over

1221
01:27:16.680 --> 01:27:23.640
<v Speaker 2>first Jim and then the extension and nothing behind it.

1222
01:27:24.079 --> 01:27:27.279
<v Speaker 2>We hadn't attached the extension to the troll. We did

1223
01:27:27.319 --> 01:27:30.880
<v Speaker 2>attach the we did. We had attacked we'd attached the

1224
01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:36.039
<v Speaker 2>extension to another piece of extension that was lying on

1225
01:27:36.159 --> 01:27:41.720
<v Speaker 2>the deck. So James May shouts from the wheelhouse. He said,

1226
01:27:42.439 --> 01:27:46.079
<v Speaker 2>Jack Robertson, you haven attached it in the right place.

1227
01:27:46.840 --> 01:27:50.439
<v Speaker 2>I said, no, no, it's your fault. Anyway, long story short,

1228
01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:52.880
<v Speaker 2>we've always had a laugh over the years about it,

1229
01:27:53.039 --> 01:27:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Jim and the and and Jim related that to Tom

1230
01:27:57.079 --> 01:28:00.399
<v Speaker 2>Rossiter some years.

1231
01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:03.319
<v Speaker 1>Did you ever did you ever get it back? Yeah?

1232
01:28:03.479 --> 01:28:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Of course, yeah, we did, of course, because you know

1233
01:28:06.079 --> 01:28:08.279
<v Speaker 2>it was it was poly ethylene, so it was floaty

1234
01:28:08.880 --> 01:28:11.439
<v Speaker 2>and we just turned around and picked it up. But

1235
01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:14.399
<v Speaker 2>there was James and I James and I the experiment,

1236
01:28:15.119 --> 01:28:17.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, it was, it was. It was not helped

1237
01:28:18.000 --> 01:28:20.880
<v Speaker 2>by not attaching it correctly. And I I can't I

1238
01:28:20.960 --> 01:28:23.600
<v Speaker 2>can't tell you need a few pints in a pub

1239
01:28:23.760 --> 01:28:27.439
<v Speaker 2>or you know, to really appreciate the funny side of

1240
01:28:27.520 --> 01:28:29.560
<v Speaker 2>that story. I can't really tell it.

1241
01:28:30.119 --> 01:28:32.720
<v Speaker 1>That would be a cracker, that story.

1242
01:28:33.439 --> 01:28:36.880
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, but you know that that that was great. But

1243
01:28:37.399 --> 01:28:40.319
<v Speaker 2>there were there were lots of stories with with all

1244
01:28:40.439 --> 01:28:43.960
<v Speaker 2>the guys, really, but the overriding.

1245
01:28:47.199 --> 01:28:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Have been a few suspectious of you.

1246
01:28:51.319 --> 01:28:57.600
<v Speaker 2>Well I suppose I suppose there were. But I'll tell

1247
01:28:57.600 --> 01:29:02.479
<v Speaker 2>you what, Jim, I I had a neat way of

1248
01:29:04.279 --> 01:29:08.319
<v Speaker 2>dealing with that. And the neat way, well, there's suspicionly

1249
01:29:08.680 --> 01:29:11.680
<v Speaker 2>high falutin scientists. I wasn't a high faluting scientist at all.

1250
01:29:11.760 --> 01:29:15.239
<v Speaker 2>I was just a practical man that was just interested

1251
01:29:15.279 --> 01:29:18.399
<v Speaker 2>in helping the industry out, you know. And they were

1252
01:29:18.439 --> 01:29:22.840
<v Speaker 2>all flabbergasted when I went down to the deck if

1253
01:29:22.880 --> 01:29:26.039
<v Speaker 2>there was any damage to the net. I did it

1254
01:29:26.119 --> 01:29:28.439
<v Speaker 2>in the early days, but not in the latter days

1255
01:29:29.039 --> 01:29:31.760
<v Speaker 2>on the bigger boats like the Kila and so forth.

1256
01:29:31.840 --> 01:29:35.239
<v Speaker 2>But when I was on the likes of the Harvest

1257
01:29:35.319 --> 01:29:39.039
<v Speaker 2>Reaper and a few other boats, smaller boats in the

1258
01:29:39.159 --> 01:29:42.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of sixty five foot class like the Idle Voice

1259
01:29:42.920 --> 01:29:47.159
<v Speaker 2>from Fraserberg as well. I used to help out if

1260
01:29:47.199 --> 01:29:49.520
<v Speaker 2>the crew were sorting the fish. For me, I would

1261
01:29:49.560 --> 01:29:51.199
<v Speaker 2>help out with a bit of repair if there was

1262
01:29:51.239 --> 01:29:54.720
<v Speaker 2>any damage to the net. Now I learned to repair nets.

1263
01:29:54.800 --> 01:30:01.720
<v Speaker 2>Would you believe that the Fishermen's Traller School in Aberdeen

1264
01:30:02.680 --> 01:30:08.880
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy two and Alec Duffy was the ex

1265
01:30:10.079 --> 01:30:14.640
<v Speaker 2>Aberdeen skipper who ran that school, and he ran fabulous

1266
01:30:14.760 --> 01:30:20.359
<v Speaker 2>courses for young fishermen starting out in their careers. For

1267
01:30:21.479 --> 01:30:24.319
<v Speaker 2>there are various courses, you know, a week or three

1268
01:30:24.359 --> 01:30:28.039
<v Speaker 2>weeks or sometimes a month, et cetera. Net mending and

1269
01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:31.000
<v Speaker 2>navigation and all that kind of stuff you know for

1270
01:30:31.159 --> 01:30:35.119
<v Speaker 2>the apprentice fishermen. And when I joined the lab, the

1271
01:30:35.199 --> 01:30:37.600
<v Speaker 2>first thing that I asked the then leader of the

1272
01:30:38.159 --> 01:30:41.079
<v Speaker 2>fish capture group, John Foster, I said, look, I'd like

1273
01:30:41.199 --> 01:30:44.960
<v Speaker 2>to I'd like to learn how to mend. He said

1274
01:30:44.960 --> 01:30:46.840
<v Speaker 2>why would you want to do that, Jack, and said, well,

1275
01:30:47.239 --> 01:30:49.680
<v Speaker 2>you know our businesses nets, we need to know them

1276
01:30:49.720 --> 01:30:52.880
<v Speaker 2>inside out. So I went on a course to learn

1277
01:30:53.279 --> 01:30:57.000
<v Speaker 2>how to mend and I used that on the fishing

1278
01:30:57.039 --> 01:30:58.880
<v Speaker 2>boats in the early days. You know, I'd go down

1279
01:30:58.960 --> 01:31:01.079
<v Speaker 2>the day and the guys would say, did look at me?

1280
01:31:01.159 --> 01:31:04.159
<v Speaker 2>In amazement? Where are the earth did you learn how

1281
01:31:04.199 --> 01:31:07.920
<v Speaker 2>to mean? I said, well, I went to fisherman's supprentice school.

1282
01:31:08.760 --> 01:31:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Gee was And I think that opened their eyes. It really,

1283
01:31:13.239 --> 01:31:15.319
<v Speaker 2>it really did, Jim, because I was just down there

1284
01:31:15.439 --> 01:31:18.520
<v Speaker 2>with some doing it with them, and I think there

1285
01:31:18.560 --> 01:31:22.560
<v Speaker 2>were obviously they were impressed, but they were also I

1286
01:31:22.640 --> 01:31:26.239
<v Speaker 2>think they were just pleased. Well one of us, you're

1287
01:31:26.319 --> 01:31:30.159
<v Speaker 2>one of us, Yeah exactly. Yeah, yeah you're not. You're

1288
01:31:30.199 --> 01:31:32.960
<v Speaker 2>not above USh, You're you're you're down on the deck

1289
01:31:33.039 --> 01:31:34.039
<v Speaker 2>getting dirty with us.

1290
01:31:34.800 --> 01:31:38.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, that's brilliant. Well done you as well. There

1291
01:31:38.479 --> 01:31:40.720
<v Speaker 1>must have been some There must have been in your

1292
01:31:40.840 --> 01:31:43.880
<v Speaker 1>time as well. There must have been some real personalities

1293
01:31:43.960 --> 01:31:46.000
<v Speaker 1>on board. We real characters.

1294
01:31:46.680 --> 01:31:51.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh, there were there were, And well there's some stories

1295
01:31:51.079 --> 01:31:53.720
<v Speaker 2>I can't relate here, Jim, unfortunately.

1296
01:31:56.199 --> 01:31:58.720
<v Speaker 1>Some very unless you're back in the pub.

1297
01:31:59.640 --> 01:32:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah it would would. Yeah, we'd have to be

1298
01:32:01.880 --> 01:32:05.239
<v Speaker 2>in the pub for those with with no recording devices.

1299
01:32:06.720 --> 01:32:10.680
<v Speaker 2>But yes, I I I can't relate them. But yeah,

1300
01:32:10.720 --> 01:32:13.760
<v Speaker 2>there were there were tremendous characters. Every one of them

1301
01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:17.760
<v Speaker 2>were characters in their own way, and some of them

1302
01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:20.399
<v Speaker 2>have gone on to great things. I mean, you know,

1303
01:32:20.520 --> 01:32:23.960
<v Speaker 2>and with Tom Tom Harkas, his nephew was on board,

1304
01:32:24.039 --> 01:32:27.439
<v Speaker 2>Ian Harkas that you know very well, and and Lee

1305
01:32:27.560 --> 01:32:30.560
<v Speaker 2>Grot they went off and got bought their own boat.

1306
01:32:30.600 --> 01:32:34.399
<v Speaker 2>They all skier. And that's that's the thing that I

1307
01:32:34.640 --> 01:32:38.039
<v Speaker 2>observed a lot. And I was so delighted in a

1308
01:32:38.079 --> 01:32:41.840
<v Speaker 2>way to see that that crewman skippers would bring crewman

1309
01:32:41.920 --> 01:32:44.359
<v Speaker 2>on and encourage them to go off and get their

1310
01:32:44.359 --> 01:32:48.119
<v Speaker 2>own boats, et cetera. And Ian and and Lee went

1311
01:32:48.239 --> 01:32:50.880
<v Speaker 2>on and made great success of the all skier. Lee

1312
01:32:50.960 --> 01:32:57.319
<v Speaker 2>eventually took his his deep sea captain's ticket, didn't he.

1313
01:32:57.479 --> 01:33:03.800
<v Speaker 2>And I understand he's now up in Orkney. Yeah right, okay,

1314
01:33:03.920 --> 01:33:06.479
<v Speaker 2>so all skippering up there. So yeah, and.

1315
01:33:08.960 --> 01:33:10.960
<v Speaker 1>He's got a really fantastic job.

1316
01:33:11.880 --> 01:33:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Oh but and think about Tom's sons as well, I

1317
01:33:16.359 --> 01:33:20.520
<v Speaker 2>mean Peter. I understand that Peter's still fishing and still

1318
01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:21.319
<v Speaker 2>doing great things.

1319
01:33:21.800 --> 01:33:25.560
<v Speaker 1>They've built the boat Jack. They've got a boat they

1320
01:33:25.600 --> 01:33:29.039
<v Speaker 1>call it the West of Fiord, but if you go

1321
01:33:29.239 --> 01:33:33.159
<v Speaker 1>the West Fiord, but if they built it was built

1322
01:33:33.199 --> 01:33:37.359
<v Speaker 1>in Denmark. If you break that down really basically, and

1323
01:33:37.439 --> 01:33:40.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you'll remember that day as we Tom himself

1324
01:33:41.239 --> 01:33:45.039
<v Speaker 1>west refiord an hour speak would be the Westry first.

1325
01:33:45.560 --> 01:33:49.359
<v Speaker 2>The Westry first, Yeah yeah, yeah, oh yeah. And names

1326
01:33:49.399 --> 01:33:51.479
<v Speaker 2>of boats are so important to them and that that

1327
01:33:51.680 --> 01:33:53.159
<v Speaker 2>family and to Tom.

1328
01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:57.359
<v Speaker 1>And listen, I'll tell you sorry, I'll just before all

1329
01:33:57.399 --> 01:34:00.359
<v Speaker 1>I was going to say on that one, Jack is

1330
01:34:01.119 --> 01:34:04.800
<v Speaker 1>when you when I think, I mean to Tom, Tom

1331
01:34:04.920 --> 01:34:08.119
<v Speaker 1>as we all know him, I would put him in

1332
01:34:09.119 --> 01:34:12.079
<v Speaker 1>top list as far as one of my closest friends,

1333
01:34:12.680 --> 01:34:17.039
<v Speaker 1>go back a long long time with them. But and

1334
01:34:17.159 --> 01:34:19.640
<v Speaker 1>this is what I often think back in the days

1335
01:34:20.159 --> 01:34:24.199
<v Speaker 1>when you were involved in the Square mesh and that's yeah,

1336
01:34:24.600 --> 01:34:28.640
<v Speaker 1>that was a Yes, he was a successful fisherman, but

1337
01:34:28.800 --> 01:34:31.760
<v Speaker 1>he had vision and he had for the future. And

1338
01:34:31.880 --> 01:34:35.960
<v Speaker 1>when you think of it, you ask a question. Yes,

1339
01:34:36.560 --> 01:34:42.840
<v Speaker 1>both Paul Peter is on board. But their son, so

1340
01:34:43.319 --> 01:34:48.039
<v Speaker 1>you could say Tom and Liz's grandsons they're on boarded

1341
01:34:48.119 --> 01:34:52.800
<v Speaker 1>as well. So when they hear the other dreaded word,

1342
01:34:53.359 --> 01:34:57.239
<v Speaker 1>he committed to the fishing like sustainability and looking at

1343
01:34:57.279 --> 01:35:01.520
<v Speaker 1>the future. That's why they're looking the future. I want

1344
01:35:01.640 --> 01:35:06.560
<v Speaker 1>it to be sustainable, Jack, and I give you ten

1345
01:35:06.800 --> 01:35:11.960
<v Speaker 1>the No. Twenty out of ten because you recognize that

1346
01:35:12.239 --> 01:35:15.079
<v Speaker 1>and what they're doing. But it's not just to make

1347
01:35:15.199 --> 01:35:19.039
<v Speaker 1>more money. Their sons and grandsons are coming through.

1348
01:35:19.159 --> 01:35:21.960
<v Speaker 2>Now, that's why I did it. And you know, all

1349
01:35:22.119 --> 01:35:26.439
<v Speaker 2>the fishing communities around Scotland, Bucky and Fezerberund, peter Head

1350
01:35:26.479 --> 01:35:30.560
<v Speaker 2>and so forth have been decimated, losty Mouth, decimated. Orkney's

1351
01:35:30.600 --> 01:35:33.960
<v Speaker 2>standing firm and they're standing firm because of the type

1352
01:35:34.000 --> 01:35:37.720
<v Speaker 2>of skipper that Tom harkass is and his sons, and

1353
01:35:38.720 --> 01:35:43.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm amazed and and Ian Harkis as well. You know,

1354
01:35:43.520 --> 01:35:46.319
<v Speaker 2>good luck to them. Keep going, keep pushing, keep doing it.

1355
01:35:46.520 --> 01:35:55.840
<v Speaker 2>But you've got to really unfold around selectivity of the

1356
01:35:55.920 --> 01:36:01.399
<v Speaker 2>fishing gear. But but the legislator have got to stop

1357
01:36:01.600 --> 01:36:05.760
<v Speaker 2>doing this continual increasing of square mesh size and the

1358
01:36:05.880 --> 01:36:10.039
<v Speaker 2>fishing industry losing marketable fish as a consequence. The industry

1359
01:36:10.079 --> 01:36:15.600
<v Speaker 2>have got to fight harder against the legislators to get

1360
01:36:15.680 --> 01:36:21.000
<v Speaker 2>their point across that yes, they want conservation and they

1361
01:36:21.079 --> 01:36:24.119
<v Speaker 2>want the juvenile fish to escape, but they must retain

1362
01:36:25.159 --> 01:36:27.800
<v Speaker 2>all of the marketable fish that enter the troll on

1363
01:36:27.840 --> 01:36:32.079
<v Speaker 2>a Halby Hall basis, because if they don't, they're going

1364
01:36:32.159 --> 01:36:34.960
<v Speaker 2>to have to end up doing more halls, more time

1365
01:36:35.000 --> 01:36:39.640
<v Speaker 2>at sea, more fuel consumption and so on. It's a

1366
01:36:39.680 --> 01:36:44.159
<v Speaker 2>fisious circle, but it's got to happen. Jim, if I may,

1367
01:36:44.680 --> 01:36:48.079
<v Speaker 2>can I just go back to the west of Jord.

1368
01:36:48.239 --> 01:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>You know the meaning of the name. And I was

1369
01:36:51.000 --> 01:36:55.239
<v Speaker 2>delighted when I asked Tom Harkas the first time that

1370
01:36:55.319 --> 01:36:58.800
<v Speaker 2>I was away on the Kila where the name came from.

1371
01:37:00.079 --> 01:37:05.640
<v Speaker 2>He said that it was the Norwegian for a female

1372
01:37:05.920 --> 01:37:11.680
<v Speaker 2>cod and I thought, that is a fantastic name for

1373
01:37:11.800 --> 01:37:17.000
<v Speaker 2>a boat. Unbelievably good named for a boat. I very

1374
01:37:17.119 --> 01:37:19.760
<v Speaker 2>nearly I got a yacht many years ago, which I

1375
01:37:19.880 --> 01:37:23.479
<v Speaker 2>no longer have, but I very nearly called it Kila

1376
01:37:24.199 --> 01:37:27.439
<v Speaker 2>because I was so impressed by that name. But I didn't.

1377
01:37:27.479 --> 01:37:30.000
<v Speaker 2>I named it after the dog instead, Finn.

1378
01:37:34.920 --> 01:37:35.680
<v Speaker 1>But there you go.

1379
01:37:36.159 --> 01:37:39.119
<v Speaker 2>But oh, Jim, uh, you know, the industry have got

1380
01:37:39.159 --> 01:37:43.520
<v Speaker 2>to fight hard because they're they're being inundated by closed

1381
01:37:43.560 --> 01:37:48.039
<v Speaker 2>areas and so on and quatas and it just becomes

1382
01:37:48.199 --> 01:37:52.239
<v Speaker 2>mind boggling. I had. I had a quick look the

1383
01:37:52.359 --> 01:37:58.760
<v Speaker 2>other day at Scotland's future catching policy Selectivity Proposals Consultation

1384
01:37:59.039 --> 01:38:04.560
<v Speaker 2>from the Government twenty twenty six, which actually closed in

1385
01:38:05.640 --> 01:38:10.760
<v Speaker 2>just the consultation closed just recently, and I was I

1386
01:38:10.960 --> 01:38:16.119
<v Speaker 2>was flabbergasted, but also delighted to see that there is

1387
01:38:16.199 --> 01:38:20.880
<v Speaker 2>a proposal from the government that the full square mesh

1388
01:38:21.159 --> 01:38:25.760
<v Speaker 2>cort end be introduced into certain fisheries. So that was

1389
01:38:25.840 --> 01:38:29.600
<v Speaker 2>what I started off with, the full cot end with

1390
01:38:29.800 --> 01:38:33.079
<v Speaker 2>square meshes all the way around the court end, which

1391
01:38:33.159 --> 01:38:37.640
<v Speaker 2>is by far the best for release in juvenile had

1392
01:38:37.680 --> 01:38:42.640
<v Speaker 2>it cought and waiting, isn't Isn't that a credible incredible

1393
01:38:42.720 --> 01:38:45.199
<v Speaker 2>how things go around?

1394
01:38:46.319 --> 01:38:48.640
<v Speaker 1>It is? It is, And I'm not trying to make

1395
01:38:48.680 --> 01:38:54.640
<v Speaker 1>it turn that negative. But when you say about just

1396
01:38:54.760 --> 01:38:57.560
<v Speaker 1>say we were to say about how things are done now,

1397
01:38:58.880 --> 01:39:05.119
<v Speaker 1>I'll reiterate conversation for fairness to the guy will not

1398
01:39:05.399 --> 01:39:09.640
<v Speaker 1>mention his name, but I'm on scrubs their pier. A

1399
01:39:09.800 --> 01:39:14.239
<v Speaker 1>good friend of mine, Skipper, is on the key with me,

1400
01:39:15.800 --> 01:39:19.439
<v Speaker 1>just been landing his fish, and he had a letter

1401
01:39:19.640 --> 01:39:25.560
<v Speaker 1>in his hand, and this letter was from the Department

1402
01:39:25.720 --> 01:39:32.000
<v Speaker 1>mean directory with his basically the dos and don'ts, what

1403
01:39:32.239 --> 01:39:36.479
<v Speaker 1>he had to do, regulations and all he had that

1404
01:39:36.640 --> 01:39:39.720
<v Speaker 1>here to and he says to me, Jim, he says,

1405
01:39:40.239 --> 01:39:45.399
<v Speaker 1>I'm reading this letter and it's clearly shows me that

1406
01:39:45.600 --> 01:39:49.520
<v Speaker 1>this was done by somebody that has never been in

1407
01:39:49.600 --> 01:39:51.079
<v Speaker 1>a fishing boat in their lives.

1408
01:39:51.880 --> 01:39:56.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's it's it's the same now

1409
01:39:56.279 --> 01:39:59.159
<v Speaker 2>as it was in my time. It was the lab.

1410
01:39:59.279 --> 01:40:05.159
<v Speaker 2>And that's that's why words fail me, actually, that it

1411
01:40:05.319 --> 01:40:08.760
<v Speaker 2>just carries on. I think one of the big problems

1412
01:40:08.960 --> 01:40:13.279
<v Speaker 2>is always that the scientists are potentially not very good

1413
01:40:13.520 --> 01:40:19.760
<v Speaker 2>at making their argument with the civil servants sitting behind

1414
01:40:20.079 --> 01:40:23.840
<v Speaker 2>the desk. I might be wrong in that, and certainly

1415
01:40:23.880 --> 01:40:25.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the scientists would take issue with that

1416
01:40:26.439 --> 01:40:30.439
<v Speaker 2>with me, But I found with all my selectivity work,

1417
01:40:30.720 --> 01:40:34.720
<v Speaker 2>you had to you really had to get a hold

1418
01:40:34.800 --> 01:40:39.039
<v Speaker 2>of them and set them down and show them the video,

1419
01:40:39.439 --> 01:40:42.800
<v Speaker 2>show them the data, talk it through, talk about the

1420
01:40:42.880 --> 01:40:47.760
<v Speaker 2>practical side of it, because they really have no conception

1421
01:40:48.159 --> 01:40:52.800
<v Speaker 2>at all, no conception. But it's worrying to hear that

1422
01:40:52.920 --> 01:40:56.680
<v Speaker 2>it's the same as it always was. But I would

1423
01:40:56.760 --> 01:41:00.119
<v Speaker 2>just reiterate to the fishing industry spend more time with

1424
01:41:00.600 --> 01:41:03.880
<v Speaker 2>the legislators. I mean, they're spending time with the scientific

1425
01:41:03.920 --> 01:41:08.680
<v Speaker 2>community and science and industry partnerships and all the rest

1426
01:41:08.720 --> 01:41:10.319
<v Speaker 2>of it, and that's all to the good, but you

1427
01:41:10.399 --> 01:41:11.920
<v Speaker 2>need to go further than that, you need to you

1428
01:41:12.000 --> 01:41:14.479
<v Speaker 2>need to shit the desks in Edinburgh, sit in the

1429
01:41:14.520 --> 01:41:19.439
<v Speaker 2>civil servants desks and talk to them a lot, a lot.

1430
01:41:20.239 --> 01:41:25.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, But unfortunately it seems to be becoming the way

1431
01:41:25.279 --> 01:41:28.800
<v Speaker 1>and all industries now and all walks of life. It

1432
01:41:29.000 --> 01:41:32.880
<v Speaker 1>just seems that people sitting on desks and they're just

1433
01:41:33.359 --> 01:41:36.800
<v Speaker 1>all the legislation and anybody and everybody.

1434
01:41:37.640 --> 01:41:42.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

1435
01:41:43.800 --> 01:41:49.319
<v Speaker 1>Almost now summed up would use it? Did square mesh

1436
01:41:50.079 --> 01:41:55.880
<v Speaker 1>help save fist stocks? What lesson still matters today?

1437
01:41:56.520 --> 01:42:00.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, definitely it saved the hurrican waiting because if you're Amber,

1438
01:42:00.279 --> 01:42:05.720
<v Speaker 2>in the early nineties nineteen nineties, the hurrican whiting stocks

1439
01:42:05.720 --> 01:42:09.560
<v Speaker 2>had been going down quite markedly and there was real

1440
01:42:09.640 --> 01:42:12.119
<v Speaker 2>concern in the industry. And if you look at the

1441
01:42:12.319 --> 01:42:16.000
<v Speaker 2>spawning stock biomass for the ten years following the introduction

1442
01:42:16.359 --> 01:42:21.119
<v Speaker 2>of square mesh, the spawning stock biomasses of hardock in

1443
01:42:21.199 --> 01:42:26.439
<v Speaker 2>particular and whiting as well started to rise very markedly.

1444
01:42:28.680 --> 01:42:31.560
<v Speaker 2>It's not entirely as clear nowadays as it might have

1445
01:42:31.640 --> 01:42:37.560
<v Speaker 2>been then, but definitely it helped hurrican whiting. It's all

1446
01:42:37.560 --> 01:42:38.640
<v Speaker 2>about the hurrican whiting.

1447
01:42:39.359 --> 01:42:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Do you think the fishing industry receives enough recognition for

1448
01:42:44.279 --> 01:42:49.119
<v Speaker 1>the conservation work it has contributed to over the years.

1449
01:42:49.720 --> 01:42:57.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh probably not. Actually, I think that there wasn't enough

1450
01:42:57.159 --> 01:43:01.880
<v Speaker 2>recognition given to anyone gym, to the fishing industry, or

1451
01:43:02.000 --> 01:43:07.800
<v Speaker 2>to scientists, although I think I was reading this. No,

1452
01:43:10.600 --> 01:43:13.640
<v Speaker 2>it's a very difficult question that I mean, in a sense,

1453
01:43:14.279 --> 01:43:17.000
<v Speaker 2>we don't want recognition. All we want is to save

1454
01:43:17.079 --> 01:43:20.520
<v Speaker 2>the babyfish and to increase the stock sizes, and that

1455
01:43:20.680 --> 01:43:24.279
<v Speaker 2>was my driving force all the time, and it was

1456
01:43:24.359 --> 01:43:27.239
<v Speaker 2>with the skippers as well. But no, I think that

1457
01:43:27.399 --> 01:43:31.640
<v Speaker 2>there was never an occasion at any meetings with the

1458
01:43:31.920 --> 01:43:36.840
<v Speaker 2>senior scientists and the fishing industry where the senior scientists

1459
01:43:36.880 --> 01:43:40.119
<v Speaker 2>would congratulate the industry for what they had done in

1460
01:43:40.199 --> 01:43:44.800
<v Speaker 2>the introduction of the squirmish panel or even taking part

1461
01:43:44.920 --> 01:43:48.119
<v Speaker 2>in the trials that they did. I mean, I recognized

1462
01:43:48.159 --> 01:43:53.680
<v Speaker 2>the skippers and I gave them the thanks that they

1463
01:43:53.800 --> 01:44:00.479
<v Speaker 2>deserved all the time. But no, they just didn't receive

1464
01:44:00.680 --> 01:44:04.720
<v Speaker 2>the recognition, either in the press or or or or

1465
01:44:04.800 --> 01:44:11.479
<v Speaker 2>anywhere else. There are many of those skippers who who

1466
01:44:11.560 --> 01:44:15.960
<v Speaker 2>should have been recognized for going above and beyond in

1467
01:44:16.039 --> 01:44:20.359
<v Speaker 2>the introduction of the square mesh that we were never

1468
01:44:21.039 --> 01:44:25.319
<v Speaker 2>were never recognized. I'm not sure where you're coming from, Jim.

1469
01:44:25.399 --> 01:44:29.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, are you suggesting that they should have been

1470
01:44:29.159 --> 01:44:35.800
<v Speaker 2>given civil recognition you know, a war? No, not that, no, no, no, no, no, no,

1471
01:44:36.479 --> 01:44:39.119
<v Speaker 2>just just the fact that they had they had taken

1472
01:44:39.239 --> 01:44:42.880
<v Speaker 2>part and done it all. I think I think all

1473
01:44:42.960 --> 01:44:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the recognition. They're all recognized in all of the scientific

1474
01:44:47.039 --> 01:44:52.439
<v Speaker 2>papers that I produced, and indeed that other people have produced.

1475
01:44:54.359 --> 01:44:56.960
<v Speaker 2>But but you know, that doesn't go to a wide audience.

1476
01:44:58.960 --> 01:45:02.600
<v Speaker 2>And in the Earth early days, sometimes the fishing news

1477
01:45:02.640 --> 01:45:06.159
<v Speaker 2>would pick up on some of the trials that were done,

1478
01:45:06.520 --> 01:45:10.920
<v Speaker 2>and you know, the story would be told of what

1479
01:45:11.319 --> 01:45:13.840
<v Speaker 2>happened on the trial, and the skipper would be interviewed

1480
01:45:13.880 --> 01:45:15.960
<v Speaker 2>and give some comments. I suppose in a sense that

1481
01:45:16.079 --> 01:45:19.079
<v Speaker 2>was recognition of the fact that they were involved and

1482
01:45:19.960 --> 01:45:23.039
<v Speaker 2>so on. But no, I don't think anyone got enough

1483
01:45:23.159 --> 01:45:27.079
<v Speaker 2>recognition for what they did. It was it's it was

1484
01:45:27.159 --> 01:45:33.039
<v Speaker 2>a huge, huge thing of huge historical significance, the introduction

1485
01:45:33.199 --> 01:45:38.119
<v Speaker 2>of the square mesh and for that matter, the limiting

1486
01:45:38.359 --> 01:45:41.119
<v Speaker 2>of the number of messures on the cod end round

1487
01:45:41.880 --> 01:45:42.319
<v Speaker 2>as well.

1488
01:45:43.079 --> 01:45:45.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and do you think what the dameser the losing

1489
01:45:45.399 --> 01:45:48.079
<v Speaker 1>cooperation between science and the industry.

1490
01:45:48.880 --> 01:45:52.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, Jim, do you know, I think I'm so

1491
01:45:52.239 --> 01:45:57.039
<v Speaker 2>far removed from it nowadays that I can't really comment

1492
01:45:57.199 --> 01:46:01.000
<v Speaker 2>on that to any great depth, other other than saying

1493
01:46:01.119 --> 01:46:06.600
<v Speaker 2>that it appears to me that there is still cooperation

1494
01:46:07.800 --> 01:46:10.560
<v Speaker 2>between the industry. Just reading I picked up in the

1495
01:46:10.600 --> 01:46:13.560
<v Speaker 2>Fishing News just recently, I took a subscription out. I

1496
01:46:13.640 --> 01:46:15.840
<v Speaker 2>haven't had one for many a long year, and I

1497
01:46:16.600 --> 01:46:18.880
<v Speaker 2>got interested enough, and what I'm reading in the in

1498
01:46:18.960 --> 01:46:24.239
<v Speaker 2>the Fishing News suggests that there is still cooperation. But

1499
01:46:24.840 --> 01:46:30.039
<v Speaker 2>my fear is that as more of the scientific community

1500
01:46:30.520 --> 01:46:35.760
<v Speaker 2>is reduced by the government, which it apparently seems to

1501
01:46:35.840 --> 01:46:39.840
<v Speaker 2>be doing in the likes of the Marine Lab in Aberdeen.

1502
01:46:40.439 --> 01:46:48.279
<v Speaker 2>As they're reducing, there'll be perhaps less opportunity to get

1503
01:46:48.319 --> 01:46:53.079
<v Speaker 2>involved with and cooperate with the between the industry and scientists.

1504
01:46:53.159 --> 01:46:57.239
<v Speaker 2>But I'm sorry, Jen, I find'gult be in answering that, really,

1505
01:46:57.800 --> 01:46:58.520
<v Speaker 2>I feel enough.

1506
01:46:58.760 --> 01:47:01.359
<v Speaker 1>I'll tell you a quote it has given me in

1507
01:47:01.479 --> 01:47:05.880
<v Speaker 1>a podcast and by a guy I'm sure I'm almost

1508
01:47:06.079 --> 01:47:09.640
<v Speaker 1>positive you know very well you would have I'm sure

1509
01:47:09.720 --> 01:47:12.680
<v Speaker 1>you'd even even work in the lab with him. And

1510
01:47:13.159 --> 01:47:18.319
<v Speaker 1>what he reckoned was the biggest mistake made was putting

1511
01:47:18.399 --> 01:47:25.880
<v Speaker 1>a value on quota and license. Yes, yes, And he said,

1512
01:47:26.079 --> 01:47:32.039
<v Speaker 1>and his view was it was the end almost to

1513
01:47:33.760 --> 01:47:37.239
<v Speaker 1>the stage where he was at. Probably, well certainly I

1514
01:47:37.479 --> 01:47:43.359
<v Speaker 1>was at. We've all been at. Was young guys ambition

1515
01:47:43.800 --> 01:47:48.039
<v Speaker 1>was to be a fisherman and then to be skipper

1516
01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:52.039
<v Speaker 1>and eventually to have their own boat. And they said

1517
01:47:52.600 --> 01:47:56.319
<v Speaker 1>putting a value monetary value on the quota and the

1518
01:47:56.439 --> 01:48:02.720
<v Speaker 1>lycis that is now impossible. Unlets it's a fan or

1519
01:48:03.039 --> 01:48:08.479
<v Speaker 1>family of an owner, a fishing boat owner, that is impossible.

1520
01:48:09.479 --> 01:48:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Well you know that said that?

1521
01:48:12.399 --> 01:48:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Who is that?

1522
01:48:13.600 --> 01:48:14.279
<v Speaker 1>Dave McKay.

1523
01:48:18.119 --> 01:48:23.159
<v Speaker 2>Sorry Ian McKay, Oh, sorry, Dave mckaye, I'm miss misheard that,

1524
01:48:23.319 --> 01:48:26.720
<v Speaker 2>Dave McKay. Dave McKay is absolutely correct. Dave comes from

1525
01:48:27.159 --> 01:48:30.680
<v Speaker 2>a fishing family background as well. And and and Dave,

1526
01:48:30.800 --> 01:48:34.039
<v Speaker 2>Dave would have been horrified as I was with with

1527
01:48:34.279 --> 01:48:38.760
<v Speaker 2>the the putting a price on the quota. I always

1528
01:48:38.840 --> 01:48:42.399
<v Speaker 2>remember speaking to a skipper that I hadn't seen for

1529
01:48:42.840 --> 01:48:45.880
<v Speaker 2>quite a long time, how are you getting on and

1530
01:48:45.920 --> 01:48:48.600
<v Speaker 2>how's the fishing going? And he said, he says, I

1531
01:48:48.680 --> 01:48:51.039
<v Speaker 2>don't really know. Jack, He said, I'm not fishing. Oh,

1532
01:48:51.079 --> 01:48:53.560
<v Speaker 2>I said, why why aren't you fishing? Have you retired

1533
01:48:53.720 --> 01:48:55.640
<v Speaker 2>or come out of it or whatever. No, no, he said,

1534
01:48:56.039 --> 01:49:00.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm a slipper. Skipper. Now you know what that means, Jim.

1535
01:49:00.960 --> 01:49:04.039
<v Speaker 2>He's sitting in the house with his slippers on, and

1536
01:49:04.159 --> 01:49:08.119
<v Speaker 2>he's rented out his quota to other fishermen. So he's

1537
01:49:08.119 --> 01:49:12.399
<v Speaker 2>sitting at home, not fishing, not doing anything other than

1538
01:49:12.760 --> 01:49:16.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, taking cruises around the world. And it's wrong.

1539
01:49:17.039 --> 01:49:21.880
<v Speaker 2>It's wrong that somebody should hold quota in that manner

1540
01:49:22.279 --> 01:49:27.319
<v Speaker 2>that can be sold at very high cost to fishermen

1541
01:49:27.399 --> 01:49:29.880
<v Speaker 2>that are trying to get into the industry. It's wrong

1542
01:49:30.399 --> 01:49:31.840
<v Speaker 2>and it needs to stop.

1543
01:49:33.039 --> 01:49:33.960
<v Speaker 1>One hundred percent.

1544
01:49:34.720 --> 01:49:39.439
<v Speaker 3>And to the point where I was talking to a

1545
01:49:39.600 --> 01:49:46.760
<v Speaker 3>guy Irish and he was saying there he said, obviously

1546
01:49:46.880 --> 01:49:50.199
<v Speaker 3>they are still it was Southern Ireland, not Northern Ireland,

1547
01:49:50.640 --> 01:49:55.560
<v Speaker 3>and obviously they're still in the EU. And the way

1548
01:49:55.600 --> 01:49:58.439
<v Speaker 3>he described it, they were, you know, it was to

1549
01:49:58.520 --> 01:50:03.319
<v Speaker 3>do with the deathimation, the mark quote and how they've

1550
01:50:03.399 --> 01:50:06.880
<v Speaker 3>been treated by it. But he says, it's not come

1551
01:50:07.000 --> 01:50:12.840
<v Speaker 3>from Brussels, it's come from Dutch billionaires. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1552
01:50:13.520 --> 01:50:14.640
<v Speaker 3>that's who's got the powet.

1553
01:50:15.239 --> 01:50:19.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, I don't know any of the insine outs.

1554
01:50:19.359 --> 01:50:22.039
<v Speaker 2>But was it not the case a few years ago

1555
01:50:22.239 --> 01:50:25.039
<v Speaker 2>that there was a court case that was trying to

1556
01:50:25.960 --> 01:50:32.199
<v Speaker 2>stop this quota selling. I don't know anyway, it needs,

1557
01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:36.479
<v Speaker 2>it needs the government to to actually resolve it and

1558
01:50:36.600 --> 01:50:40.479
<v Speaker 2>take the quarta back for the fishermen rather than these people.

1559
01:50:41.920 --> 01:50:44.399
<v Speaker 2>It's it's shocking. It's absolutely shocking.

1560
01:50:44.560 --> 01:50:48.720
<v Speaker 1>It is it is. I Finally, when history looks back

1561
01:50:49.000 --> 01:50:53.439
<v Speaker 1>at square based panel development, what do you hope people

1562
01:50:53.720 --> 01:50:57.479
<v Speaker 1>understand about the work that was done in Aberdeen?

1563
01:50:58.359 --> 01:51:02.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, I just hope they see that for the period

1564
01:51:02.960 --> 01:51:06.119
<v Speaker 2>there was a need for a change in the way

1565
01:51:06.199 --> 01:51:10.800
<v Speaker 2>that we look at selectivity and a desperate need to

1566
01:51:11.359 --> 01:51:15.239
<v Speaker 2>save the juvenile fish as there had been for one

1567
01:51:15.319 --> 01:51:18.920
<v Speaker 2>hundred years before. Back to Holt in eighteen ninety five,

1568
01:51:19.119 --> 01:51:22.720
<v Speaker 2>back to Gelder in nineteen twenty eight, and so on.

1569
01:51:22.920 --> 01:51:25.520
<v Speaker 2>It just went. It was going on and on and on,

1570
01:51:26.520 --> 01:51:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and something needed to change. And I hope people might

1571
01:51:30.039 --> 01:51:33.439
<v Speaker 2>look back and say, well, wow, you know that was

1572
01:51:33.479 --> 01:51:38.000
<v Speaker 2>a big change and it was a good change and

1573
01:51:38.319 --> 01:51:41.920
<v Speaker 2>it helped. And let's hope that now the fishing industry

1574
01:51:41.960 --> 01:51:47.920
<v Speaker 2>into the future grasp it. The whole notion of making

1575
01:51:48.039 --> 01:51:52.319
<v Speaker 2>gears more selective, as long as they're practical, as long

1576
01:51:52.399 --> 01:51:57.000
<v Speaker 2>as as long as they can be handled well on

1577
01:51:57.079 --> 01:52:01.600
<v Speaker 2>the fishing boat, and use them to their benefit, use

1578
01:52:01.680 --> 01:52:05.680
<v Speaker 2>them to the benefit of the fishing industry, because you know,

1579
01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:10.000
<v Speaker 2>I go back to the old thing, that the point

1580
01:52:10.039 --> 01:52:12.159
<v Speaker 2>that I made in the early nineteen eighties. It's a

1581
01:52:12.239 --> 01:52:16.199
<v Speaker 2>food industry, it's fresh food, it's a food industry. We

1582
01:52:17.880 --> 01:52:20.800
<v Speaker 2>can't keep destroying juvenile fish the way that we've been

1583
01:52:20.880 --> 01:52:25.159
<v Speaker 2>doing over the years. We've got to let them grow

1584
01:52:26.039 --> 01:52:33.000
<v Speaker 2>to spawn and produce bigger stocks to keep the industry going.

1585
01:52:33.399 --> 01:52:37.680
<v Speaker 2>Jobs in the industry are very important as well. Jimmy Way,

1586
01:52:37.760 --> 01:52:42.000
<v Speaker 2>you remember Scotland. I don't know how many boats were

1587
01:52:42.039 --> 01:52:46.239
<v Speaker 2>around the ports in Scotland, but it's nothing like it

1588
01:52:46.399 --> 01:52:46.760
<v Speaker 2>used to be.

1589
01:52:48.279 --> 01:52:53.279
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, we'll just go ruin the buddy first, Jack, I

1590
01:52:53.359 --> 01:52:59.399
<v Speaker 1>mean there's hardly a boat and Bucky, you got Lossy Mouth,

1591
01:53:00.039 --> 01:53:05.279
<v Speaker 1>no boats and lots as a marina, Burghead, little little bit.

1592
01:53:05.720 --> 01:53:09.760
<v Speaker 1>Then you come round Helmsville, the village I'm from, there's

1593
01:53:09.840 --> 01:53:17.880
<v Speaker 1>no whitefish boats, lives, there no boats. There's one WUK

1594
01:53:18.119 --> 01:53:23.600
<v Speaker 1>registered whitefish boat now Jack and that's the boy Andrew Woow.

1595
01:53:24.439 --> 01:53:28.520
<v Speaker 1>When you think when you think my younger days, they

1596
01:53:28.520 --> 01:53:30.479
<v Speaker 1>would have been thirty or forty.

1597
01:53:31.079 --> 01:53:33.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd have.

1598
01:53:33.439 --> 01:53:35.560
<v Speaker 1>To see them all the way around. It's really sad.

1599
01:53:36.880 --> 01:53:40.239
<v Speaker 2>It's sad. But you know, I suppose you've got to

1600
01:53:40.319 --> 01:53:44.000
<v Speaker 2>get somebody on your your podcast, the people with the

1601
01:53:44.119 --> 01:53:47.720
<v Speaker 2>power who can change all that, you know, the administrators

1602
01:53:47.880 --> 01:53:51.760
<v Speaker 2>or the government officials, or the or the MP's, and

1603
01:53:53.079 --> 01:53:57.319
<v Speaker 2>get a plan to bring all that back. But well,

1604
01:53:58.680 --> 01:54:00.720
<v Speaker 2>oh dear, we can end up crying here.

1605
01:54:00.840 --> 01:54:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Jim, what would you going back from that? What would

1606
01:54:10.960 --> 01:54:14.359
<v Speaker 1>you like younger fishermen and scientists to understand.

1607
01:54:16.960 --> 01:54:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Just work for each other, and in particular the scientific community.

1608
01:54:22.000 --> 01:54:28.359
<v Speaker 2>Get the mindset that you are working to for the industry,

1609
01:54:28.520 --> 01:54:31.960
<v Speaker 2>to make it better, to improve fish stocks, to get

1610
01:54:32.119 --> 01:54:37.000
<v Speaker 2>more fish in the sea by using more selective gears.

1611
01:54:37.520 --> 01:54:40.720
<v Speaker 2>Forget about all the closed areas and the quotes and

1612
01:54:40.840 --> 01:54:46.000
<v Speaker 2>so forth. Just get into selectivity in a big way

1613
01:54:46.960 --> 01:54:50.600
<v Speaker 2>going forward. I would say that to young fishermen in particular,

1614
01:54:51.119 --> 01:54:57.119
<v Speaker 2>because youngsters these days can visualize better gear design and

1615
01:54:57.439 --> 01:55:02.680
<v Speaker 2>so forth, and just just do however difficult it seems,

1616
01:55:03.319 --> 01:55:06.880
<v Speaker 2>there's always a way with selectivity and fishing gear to

1617
01:55:07.039 --> 01:55:11.600
<v Speaker 2>make it manageable. And handleable on the vessel, and that's

1618
01:55:11.720 --> 01:55:14.159
<v Speaker 2>what you need, and that's what the scientists need to

1619
01:55:14.319 --> 01:55:19.680
<v Speaker 2>understand to give you. And I don't know, Jim, I

1620
01:55:20.319 --> 01:55:26.800
<v Speaker 2>get very uptight about the need for much more cooperation

1621
01:55:27.560 --> 01:55:30.840
<v Speaker 2>between the two. We had fantastic cooperation in the nineteen

1622
01:55:30.920 --> 01:55:37.520
<v Speaker 2>eighties up to the introduction of the Squirmish panel, and

1623
01:55:37.880 --> 01:55:38.800
<v Speaker 2>that was a very good time.

1624
01:55:39.319 --> 01:55:39.720
<v Speaker 1>What it's like.

1625
01:55:40.079 --> 01:55:41.800
<v Speaker 2>Bear in mind, Jim, that I left the Lab in

1626
01:55:41.920 --> 01:55:44.760
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety five. Since when I've not been involved with

1627
01:55:45.000 --> 01:55:53.000
<v Speaker 2>industry at all. So from nineteen nineteen eighty one to date,

1628
01:55:53.800 --> 01:55:58.399
<v Speaker 2>it's forty five years ago that I started experimenting with

1629
01:55:58.520 --> 01:56:00.880
<v Speaker 2>the square mesh. It's unbelieved able to think on it

1630
01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:01.279
<v Speaker 2>that way.

1631
01:56:02.079 --> 01:56:06.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, we'll have a celebration for its fiftieth anniversary.

1632
01:56:07.399 --> 01:56:11.119
<v Speaker 2>Let's do might need to have one earlier than that.

1633
01:56:14.960 --> 01:56:16.520
<v Speaker 1>We'll get Tom Harks along.

1634
01:56:18.439 --> 01:56:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, We've got all the skippers along. That'll be

1635
01:56:21.000 --> 01:56:21.399
<v Speaker 2>some sh.

1636
01:56:24.359 --> 01:56:29.680
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, have you online presence we're going to listeners fully Yeah.

1637
01:56:30.600 --> 01:56:35.479
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, I'm not on social media or or anything. No, well,

1638
01:56:35.600 --> 01:56:37.920
<v Speaker 2>actually that's not true. I'm on Facebook, but it's just

1639
01:56:38.520 --> 01:56:43.479
<v Speaker 2>family and close friends, so I know I don't have

1640
01:56:43.600 --> 01:56:47.439
<v Speaker 2>any any means of being contacted.

1641
01:56:48.119 --> 01:56:51.920
<v Speaker 1>I would say, that's giving you a happy, live well answer.

1642
01:56:53.319 --> 01:56:56.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm just going to fold up. But I would honestly

1643
01:56:56.199 --> 01:56:59.680
<v Speaker 1>like to thank you. My goodness, Jack, You're going to

1644
01:56:59.800 --> 01:57:02.800
<v Speaker 1>good down in history. I have no question of that.

1645
01:57:03.039 --> 01:57:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much.

1646
01:57:04.720 --> 01:57:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I hope it's in a good way.

1647
01:57:07.640 --> 01:57:09.840
<v Speaker 1>It's in a very positive way.

1648
01:57:09.920 --> 01:57:13.560
<v Speaker 2>It's well, thanks, Jim. I do appreciate you know. I

1649
01:57:13.640 --> 01:57:17.760
<v Speaker 2>love to talk about square mesh selectivity and saving the babies.

1650
01:57:17.800 --> 01:57:20.279
<v Speaker 2>That's what it's all about. Thank you ever so much.

1651
01:57:21.239 --> 01:57:23.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure it was your words to me on the

1652
01:57:23.680 --> 01:57:30.319
<v Speaker 1>pier one night back in the eighties. Survive and thrive, Yes,

1653
01:57:31.239 --> 01:57:32.359
<v Speaker 1>survive and thrive.