Speaker 1: Welcome to the Great Detectives of Old Time Radio from Boise, Idaho.
This is your host, Adam Graham. In a moment, we're
going to bring you this week's episode of Dragnet. But
first I do want to encourage you, if you're enjoying
the podcast, to please follow us using your favorite podcast software.
I also want to let you know to today's program
is brought you part by the financial support of our listeners.
You can support the show on a one time basis
by melan it or donation to Adam Graham piel Box
one five nine one three. That's peel Box one five
nine thirteen, Boise, Idaho eight three seven one five. And
I want to thank Ron and Nancy and Carolyn for
sending along donations that way. And you can also become
one of our ongoing Patreon supporters for as little as
two dollars per month by going to Patreon dot Great
Detectives dot net. Now from February twenty second, nineteen fifty one,
here is the Big Couple.
Speaker 2: Ladies and Gentlemen. Crime Prevention Week, now being observed nationally,
is designed for one purpose to emphasize that crime is
your personal enemy, costs money and lives. It weakens the
moral and physical strength of your community. Show your respect
for the law by cooperating with your police officer fifty
two weeks a year. Join the fight to stamp out
crime the ally of treason.
Speaker 3: The story you are about to hear is true, only
the names have been changed to protect the innocent. You're
a detective sergeant. You're assigned to Bunco Detail. A husband
and wife confidence team has shifted operations to your city.
Their criminal record dates back seventeen years. Their masters in
the art of swindling your job.
Speaker 4: Get them.
Speaker 5: Drag Met the documented drama of an actual crime. While
the next thirty minutes, in cooperation with the Los Angeles
Police Department, you will travel step by step on the
side of the law through an actual case transcribed from
official police files, from beginning to end, from crime to punishment.
Dragnet is the story of your police force in action.
Speaker 2: It was Monday, April twentieth. It was windy in Los Angeles.
We were working the day Watch out of Bunco Detail.
My partner's Ben Ramero. The boss is Captain McCauley. My
name is Friday. We're on the way out from the
office and was ten thirty five am when we got
to the Holy Gospel Tabernacle.
Speaker 6: Pastor's house. Look at that palm dray. Yeah, winds storm
shore didn't do it any good. I was really born
last night. Woked me up a couple of times, and
not me. I slept like a baby. What'd you say?
The name here was Olsen. Yeah you got it right here, reverend,
and rules doesn't seem to be anybody at home. I
don't try it again when we sit on the phone,
and neither be here at the church. Where's that just
driving the corner faces on the south Spring. Not a
very wealthy looking neighborhood. There must be the church up there. Mm.
Sure couldn't stand the code of pain. Grounds are well kept?
Anything nice flower beds other than giant pansies. Tried some
in the backyard last year. Too bad. What do you
mean giant snails? Sliced him right off with the roots.
Speaker 4: I guess that must be him up at the front
of better close the door.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, come on, uh excuse me, sir.
Speaker 8: Oh didn't see you? You the Reverend Olson?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 8: Can I help him?
Speaker 2: My name's Friday, Reverend. I talked to you on the phone. Oh, yes, sergeant,
And this is my partner, Sergeant Romero. How do you
do sergeant Mao, that's Romero ravernd Oh excuse me, Romero.
Didn't expect you so soon. A little busy here fixing
the pulpit. It happened last Sunday. What's that really? I
guess I got carried away with my sermon. Quite a commotion. Oh,
leaned forward in the pulpit.
Speaker 9: This whole section here just splintered and broke right off,
ruined my whole sermon. Well, I can finish this up later.
Have it share their offices very much? Yeah, well, there
it is. Sergeants, their names, descriptions, and missus Tom Herbert
that's the name they used.
Speaker 8: Anyway.
Speaker 4: Would you mind briefing this and then how it happened? Reverend?
When did you first meet this couple?
Speaker 9: It came to us a little over a month ago.
They didn't have any reason to be suspicious. Mister Herbert
showed me some fine rapperence says, I didn't think it
was necessary to check them.
Speaker 8: What kind of approach did they used?
Speaker 4: Could you do it well?
Speaker 9: The first visit, Missus Herbert did most of the talking.
She told me she and her husband wanted to write
a history of our church. It was supposed to be
part of an historical book on all the churches in
the county.
Speaker 4: Naturally, I felt a little flattered about it.
Speaker 2: Did this mister and missus Herbert make any demands for
money or to write about your church?
Speaker 4: I mean, oh no, no, there was no money involved
at first.
Speaker 8: They said.
Speaker 9: All I wanted was our cooperation and doing some of
the research work, you know, looking up dates.
Speaker 8: Names, things like that. I see.
Speaker 9: It seemed very sincere. Both of them didn't drink smoked.
They worked very hard during research and writing. I don't
know why they had to change. Would have been nice
having history written about our church, Yes, sir.
Speaker 4: Why did they first bring up the idea of money.
Speaker 9: Well, mister Herbert gave me one day and showed me
this letter. It was supposed to be from the people
who were going to publish the history of our church.
Letters said, well, because of certain business reasons, the whole
thing was off.
Speaker 4: They could and published the book. Mister Herbert acted very sorry.
Did he leave that letter with your reverend.
Speaker 9: No, he took it with him. I felt badly about
the whole thing. They're doing all that work and then
the book not being published.
Speaker 6: Did the Herberts brought the idea of you and the
church putting up the money to print the book?
Speaker 9: Well, no, not exactly, but I guess they gave me
the idea.
Speaker 8: How do you mean?
Speaker 9: They suggested that I talk it over the church board,
so I did. We all agreed it to be ashamed
to give up the idea of the book after so
much work had gone into it.
Speaker 4: Is that when you agreed to finance the.
Speaker 8: Book, well, the board and I did.
Speaker 4: Yes, It's all my fault, though I helped to persuade
them the money came out of church funds? Is that?
Speaker 9: As a matter of fact, it didn't. We only have
a small operating fund. So you can see where small
church congregation isn't wealthy.
Speaker 6: And where did money come from?
Speaker 9: Well, for one thing, the ladies of the Altar Society
put on a Sunday afternoon Ham dinner.
Speaker 8: It made some money, and then the.
Speaker 9: Herbert suggested we helped sell advertising to pay part of
the cost, so we did that too.
Speaker 8: It still wasn't enough.
Speaker 4: Well, exactly how much did you turn over to the Herbits?
Speaker 9: Eight hundred and four dollars and sixty one cents I
had to borrow three hundred and fifty from the bank
to make it. It all had to be paid back
people who paid for their advertising too. It all had
to come out of our pockets. A terrible thing. Yes,
it's terrible. I don't know what I'm going to do. Hey,
that's congregation for it. Their offerings have always been so generous,
and they're not wealthy, Ei, They're just working people.
Speaker 4: When was the last time that you heard from this
mister miss Herbert Rever?
Speaker 9: Week ago? I guess yes, it was last Monday. I
got anxious and called them at their hotel. It's on
South Grand I can give you the address. They told
me when the books would be ready, and said it
would be on Tuesday.
Speaker 8: It's the last I heard them.
Speaker 2: No forwarding address, no other place that you think we
might find them.
Speaker 9: No, I'm sorry, just don't have any idea. So hard
to believe anyone would do such a thing to us.
Speaker 6: Yes, see, when if we could have the address of
their hotel.
Speaker 8: Yes, sir, come with me, I have it over the house.
Speaker 4: Did did mister and missus Herbert have a car? Do
you know, Reverend?
Speaker 9: I don't think so. If they did, I never saw it.
You know what I'm going to tell the congregation. Eight
hundred dollars. It's a lot of money to our people. Yes,
tell me, sergeant. I don't mean to be uncharitable. But
mister and missus Herbert, they have a criminal record. Have
they done this sort of thing before?
Speaker 2: Well, their descriptions seem to fit a couple that we've
been looking for. They've been working the churches in this
area on and off for a couple.
Speaker 4: Of years now. I can't understand why they do such
a thing.
Speaker 8: It's almost like robbing at poor box.
Speaker 4: Yes, so they've done that too.
Speaker 2: Eleven fifteen am we went back to the city Hall
and pulled the package on the suspects, mister and missus
Tom Herbert.
Speaker 10: They were a.
Speaker 2: Veteran man and wife confidence team who'd worked the Los
Angeles area and other large cities around the country. There
especialty seemed to be swindling churches and clergymen over.
Speaker 4: A period of seventeen years.
Speaker 2: They piled up a long record involving frauds and various
bunco games, but they'd only been brought to trial once
the case had been dismissed for lack of sufficient evidence.
Eleven thirty five am. We took mug shots of mister
and missus Herbert out to the Reverend.
Speaker 4: Olsen and he identified them.
Speaker 2: We checked the hotel on South Grand where they'd been
staying no leeds. We got out a local broadcast and
an APV on them. Together with the sheriff's office, we
sent a special bulletin about the Herberts to the pastors
of the different churches in the city and county. From
the list of names on the Marmi sheet, we began
checking out all the known friends.
Speaker 4: And relatives of the suspects.
Speaker 2: One of them was a Clyde Harris, proprietor of a
physical culture school out in the Wiltshire district. One pm Tuesday,
we drove out to talk to him. Which way, Jill,
right down the street the blue and whints signed Oh yeah.
Speaker 6: Venus School of Physical Culture. I can make you and
all American girl. Clyde Harris manager looks like the office here,
you know we're supposed to meet him in the gym
that's next door.
Speaker 11: Oh yeah here, no glad, No yeahs.
Speaker 4: Back this way.
Speaker 10: I guess.
Speaker 12: All right, now, what are you going to see? All
together with me?
Speaker 4: Lean cow.
Speaker 12: Who now ex.
Speaker 6: Now, well, please clean cool, it's awesome.
Speaker 12: Whoa down?
Speaker 10: Why?
Speaker 12: Who down too?
Speaker 6: Then? Then down?
Speaker 4: Hold in a minute now, I'm sorry, this is Tollison.
Speaker 12: You're doing it wrong. Your pelvis is all out of position.
Speaker 4: Excuse me, you're Clyde Harris.
Speaker 8: Yes, did you want something?
Speaker 4: Police officers but to Harris like talk to you?
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, sir?
Speaker 6: Could you hold on half a minute?
Speaker 4: Chuirg Alady Francis, would you take over.
Speaker 12: Here for a few minutes. I have to talk to
these gentlemen ladies.
Speaker 6: Francis is going to count for you for a while.
Speaker 12: You go right ahead with a lesson. I'll be back
in a few minutes.
Speaker 6: Back here, officers won't take too long with you, nose
just a few minutes. Sorry to interrupt your last It's
all right. I just don't want to have the ladies
thinking uneglected. And they paid good money for these exercises. Yeah,
here we are. I had a cherry thank you. You
said something about Tom Herbert on the phone, sergeant.
Speaker 12: What's it all about?
Speaker 4: Well, we understand that you're a friend of the Herbert's.
Mister Harris.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I knew Tom and Dorris a couple of years back.
I haven't seen much of them lately. When was the
last time is oone seen? Must be two three months? Anyway,
anything wrong?
Speaker 8: Well?
Speaker 4: Do you know where we could locate them?
Speaker 8: I don't know for sure.
Speaker 6: Last time I saw him they were at a hotel
downtown in South Grand I think you know South Grand
writing your people.
Speaker 4: We have no idea where they moved for the left there. No,
I didn't even know they've moved.
Speaker 6: They haven't phoned or contacted you all in the last
month or so. No, not a word and none in
the jam Again, are they.
Speaker 4: We'd like to talk to him? That's Would you know
of any of their favorite spots around town? Eating drinking places?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 6: I don't think I could say. They got around quite
a bit. You checked with some of their other friends
around town and Pattens and Thompson's Mike run Yam what
was that last one? Mike Runyan very good friend of
the Herberts Ben No, I don't recall the name.
Speaker 4: But how could we get in touch with this run in?
Mister Harris, He's.
Speaker 6: Got a phone. Come out in the office. We'll call
him if you like, Thank you very much. I'll get
Mike on the line for you. To introduced you.
Speaker 2: Would you mind talking to them, Harris, don't tell them
it's for us. Just ask if he knows where the
Herberts are, would mine?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 8: All right, no answer?
Speaker 6: Maybe hello, Mike fight Harris, Mike, Yeah, how are you fine?
Speaker 8: Fine? Yeah?
Speaker 6: A long time is am?
Speaker 8: Mike?
Speaker 6: You any idea where Tom Endras Herbert are?
Speaker 8: Is right?
Speaker 4: How about that?
Speaker 12: How you doing?
Speaker 6: No, that's okay, it's not important. Sure, I think, Mike,
make it soon, eh, right y? Yeah, No, he doesn't
know where the Herbert's is staying. Saw him a week
ago out in Hollywood, though, says they're doing fine.
Speaker 8: How do you mean?
Speaker 6: Ran into him outside that big church on Hollywood Boulevard.
They told Mike all about it. They really got religion,
that's so.
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 6: They're even writing a book about the church.
Speaker 2: We called back Mike Runyon, the friend of the suspect,
and he gave us the location of the church where
he'd seen mister and missus Herbert. Ben and I drove
out there and talked to the pastor, Reverend John Kenworth.
Speaker 4: We showed him the Herbert's mugshots and he identified them.
They were going under the.
Speaker 2: Name of Williams and supposedly they were writing a book
about the history of the church. To cover publishing expenses
and research, more than one thousand dollars from Perry's contributions
had been placed in a separate account at a local bank.
Reverend Kenworth told us that it was a special the
count and the Herberts had access to it.
Speaker 4: Ben got on the phone, called the bank.
Speaker 8: How's that?
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, sir, uh huh, yeah, all right, thank you.
Were they saying the two of them were in the
bank yesterday. They didn't draw out everything. How much do
they leave? Three dollars?
Speaker 2: Ben and I checked with the teller at the bank
and showed him mugshots of mister and missus Herbert. He
identified them as the couple who'd withdrawn the church funds.
We went to the hotel address the suspects.
Speaker 4: Had given to Reverend Kenworth.
Speaker 2: They checked out two days before the search went on.
Two weeks passed, we ran out of leeds, no further
reports on the couple. A month went by Tuesday, May
twenty third, we got an APB from San Francisco and
a couple answering the Herbert's description. They were still working
at Church Angle. During the next six weeks, we got
reports on them from Washington, Oregon, Nevada, and northern California.
In Sacramento, they apparently changed their mo for the first time.
They started selling phony health insurance policies. They promised everything,
and they had a lot of takers. One of the
big selling points was a clause which promised full protection.
Speaker 4: If anybody in the family should come down with polio.
Speaker 2: From Sacramento, they headed south to Oakland and then to Fresno.
On July tenth, the complaints started to come in and
we knew the Herberts had moved into Los Angeles with
their health insurance racket. One of the first victims was
a Carl Fogerty. He lived out in the West Lake area.
Speaker 4: There's a policy they gave me. Sorry, he picks health insurance.
Not worth the paper it's printed on.
Speaker 6: When did they sell you this, mister foger Do you
remember three weeks ago?
Speaker 13: I guess never would have known it was phony if
my boy hadn't come.
Speaker 4: Down with polio.
Speaker 8: How's he getting along?
Speaker 4: It's a too good right leg. He's got it bad.
Speaker 13: There's not as if we don't have enough grief.
Speaker 4: We got to lose out on this bum insurance. You
matter if I take a look at that policy, sir, Oh,
go ahead.
Speaker 6: Here we are, Yeah, the same outfit, Joe, Apex Health Insurance,
same pony address.
Speaker 4: Would you remember the man who sold you this? Do
you think I think I would?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I wonder if you'd mind looking through these pictures, mister Fogerty,
not at all. Just look at them carefully if you will.
Speaker 13: Yeah, this one, that's him.
Speaker 4: I remember who's he?
Speaker 6: His name's Herbert. When he came in to sell you
this policy, was he alone?
Speaker 13: Yeah, he was, and a real good sales to it.
How much did you pay for the insurance? Let me see?
Speaker 6: Forty three dollars and some odd sense.
Speaker 13: I remember that cause I cashed him a war bond
and I took five dollars out of the rent money.
Speaker 4: Outside of this policy here, you have no other papers
that the man might have given.
Speaker 13: You, No nothing but this business card here he gave
me that you see here, the same name Apex Health Insurance.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, thank you very much, mister Fogerty. We hope
you little.
Speaker 6: Boy out of it all right, Yes, thanks, Well, here's
our cards. There's anything we can do, give us a call. Sure, okay,
but timely checked the office.
Speaker 10: Huh I think?
Speaker 4: So do you have a phone here, mister Fogerty, Oh yeah,
so I did, straight back in the hall there help
you O. Thank you very much?
Speaker 14: Two five seven two yeah, that's right. Yeah, Fred Joe
Friday the name for us in the book m west
seven Yeah, okay, right, thanks Fred?
Speaker 8: Anything doing? And what's pretty good?
Speaker 4: Office?
Speaker 2: Got a call from a printing shop out on West seventh.
The manager's got an order. Reason, not too sure about.
How do you mean it's for a batch of letterhead
stationary business cards?
Speaker 4: Yeah, for who Apex Health Insurance.
Speaker 5: You are listening to Dragnet will the step by step
solution to Tonight's authentic case history.
Speaker 2: Wednesday, July tenth, four pm, Ben and I drove back
downtown to the printing shop on West seventh Street and
talked with the manager.
Speaker 4: He told us that the order for stationary and business.
Speaker 2: Cards for the Apex Health Insurance company had been placed
two days before. He said he becomes suspicious after reading
a story in one of the newspapers about the polio
insurance fraud. He also said that the customer who had
ordered this stuff was a woman. She told him that
she would call and pick up the order on Friday.
We showed the manager a handful of mugshots. He could
give us only a partial identification of Missus Herbert's picture.
We called the office, told them we were going on
steakhout and arranged for a relief. Ben and I spent
the rest of Wednesday and all day Thursday and Friday
in the rear of the print shop where we could
keep an eye on everyone entering their place. Friday six pm,
no sign of the Herberts. Not a trace.
Speaker 4: Saturday the same, no sign of either one of them.
Speaker 2: Monday, more waiting. The suspects stayed away. Tuesday three point
thirty pm. I went out the rear door, went down
the street and got some cigarettes, and then I headed
back for the print shop.
Speaker 6: Man, keep your coat on, Joe. Just call the office
for a relief.
Speaker 4: Why what's doing?
Speaker 6: I applied Harris, friend of the Herberts, guy who runs
the physical culture school.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what about him?
Speaker 6: He called the office one to talk to us.
Speaker 8: I phoned him out there at the gym.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: He told me he was out drinking last night and
he met Missus Herbert at a bar.
Speaker 4: She was alone.
Speaker 6: Did tell you where to find her the Greenwood Apartments
six o three.
Speaker 4: When the relief men arrived.
Speaker 2: Then and I left and drove across town to the
Greenwood Apartments on Taylor Street was a three story frame
buildings set back from the sidewalk, behind the sloping lawn,
lined with a box hedge.
Speaker 4: We checked the name was on the mealboxes. The name TJ.
Speaker 6: Bronson was listed for apartment six o three. We rang,
but there was no answer. To try to manage, you know, yeah,
it's a nice place. Insurance racket must be paying.
Speaker 4: Off on him.
Speaker 12: Here we go, Yeah, I help you.
Speaker 4: Yes, so you're the manager.
Speaker 6: Here, that's right, that's my name.
Speaker 12: Can I help you?
Speaker 8: Police officers, mister thatcher.
Speaker 6: We're trying to locate the people in six oh three.
Speaker 15: Oh, that crazy woman tried to blow up the place
last night.
Speaker 4: Why what do you mean, missus Bronson?
Speaker 15: She came in drunk about two am, no sense at all.
About three am, the folks in six oh one call
me and they said the small gas. I went up
there and found her in the kitchen at I'd like
a light gas stove turned on, going full blass crazy.
Speaker 4: Where's her husband? Couldn't say?
Speaker 15: Chasing around again, I think hadn't been home in a week.
Lucky I got to that, I guess before sawing a
little match.
Speaker 6: You said it happened about three this morning.
Speaker 4: That's right, it's a crazy woman. She'll be all right, though.
Where's she now?
Speaker 8: Do you know? Yeah?
Speaker 4: County Hospital, four twenty five pm.
Speaker 2: Ben and I got in touch with the office and
arranged for a stake out at the Herbert's apartment. We
called homicide and checked on the attempts suicide report. They
informed us that the woman had been taken to the
Cycle Award County Hospital. We went over to the hospital,
checked at the main desk and identified ourselves. The nurse
on duty had us shown to the ward where the suspect,
Doris Herbert, was confined. She was a half way attractive
woman in her late forties, short, bleached blonde hair, dark
eyes with deep circles under them. She turned and looked
up as we stopped beside her bed.
Speaker 6: Excuse me you, Doris Herbert's your name, Doris Herbert?
Speaker 16: Who you want?
Speaker 4: Police officers would like to talk to you for a minute.
Speaker 17: I knew you'd be around. I don't care, ma'am. I'm
sick of it. I'm sick of the whole rotten thing.
I knew you'd come.
Speaker 4: We just have a few questions, ma'am. It won't take long.
Speaker 16: Go ahead, I don't care. Did you find him yet?
Speaker 4: You mean your husband?
Speaker 16: Not my husband, not anymore?
Speaker 17: Him and that cheap girl behind my back sneaking around
twenty years would been happy?
Speaker 16: And he throws me away.
Speaker 6: Where's your husband?
Speaker 8: Now?
Speaker 16: Is with her? I've been with her awake. He doesn't
even care. I'm here twenty years ago.
Speaker 6: He cared.
Speaker 16: I found him, taught him something. I told him everything.
He knows this.
Speaker 4: Girl that your husband's with. Where does she stay to?
You know?
Speaker 10: Yeah?
Speaker 17: An apartment. It's on Franklin, around the corner of Franklin
and Laurel.
Speaker 16: You were close, weren't you. You knew it was us.
Speaker 8: What's this girl's name?
Speaker 16: Mary Daily? I saw her with him? Tell me something? Yeah,
you know it was us, Tom and me the insurance.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we knew it was you.
Speaker 16: I didn't like it wasn't a clean game. Tom's idea.
He made money, but I didn't like it. It wasn't clean.
Speaker 4: All right, missus Herbert, We'll talk to you later.
Speaker 16: Oh not me.
Speaker 17: I'm gonna die I'm gonna die and forget all about it.
Let's be sure and get him, won't you.
Speaker 16: Tom. I told him everything he knows. Get him.
Speaker 6: You're sure about the adress.
Speaker 16: Yeah, I'm sure. Temmy Sonny, Why do you have to
do it to me? Showing me away, lying, taking that
cheap girl? Why do you do it to me?
Speaker 4: Well, you ought to have an idea. You taught him
everything he knows.
Speaker 2: Before we left the hospital, we made arrangements to have
Doris Herbert transferred to the prison. Ward five PM, we
drove out to the apartment house at Franklin and Laurel
and checked with a landlady. She told us that Tom
Herbert's girlfriend, Marie Daily, had checked out of her apartment
the day before.
Speaker 4: She said the Daily Girl had a middle aged man
with her.
Speaker 2: We showed the landlady Herbert's mugshot and she identified him
as that man. She had no forwarding address on her,
but she did remember the name of the express truck
that called.
Speaker 4: To pick up the Daily Girl's baggage. We checked with
the express company and found that the trunks had been
taken to the Lockheed Air terminal. We started calling the airlines.
Speaker 2: Six thirty pm We finally got a report that a
man answering Tom Herbert's description at book passage for two
on a flight to Mexico City.
Speaker 4: The plane was scheduled to leave at eight thirty five.
Speaker 2: That night, Ben and I drove out to the airport
and went on steakeout eight fifteen pm.
Speaker 4: We waited eight twenty No sign of them. United airlineres
mainliners fly at six forty nine from Denver and intermediate cities.
Speaker 6: They're getting a little late. Huh yeah until twenty four.
Speaker 4: They're cutting it.
Speaker 8: Clothes going in the bar.
Speaker 4: Joe take a love. Yeah, that's them.
Speaker 10: Let's go.
Speaker 6: Not hard to spot. What's the matter with a girl?
Speaker 4: Looks pretty jerky? Hi, come on, reveen Water.
Speaker 8: I'm ready.
Speaker 12: How what you want?
Speaker 4: Yeah, haven't got much time. We don't want to miss
that plane. You Tom Herbert? Yes, what is it? Police
officers like, talk to you downtown just a minute. This
must be some kind of mistake.
Speaker 6: No mistake, Herbert, We talked to your wife.
Speaker 4: Let's go where they want.
Speaker 8: Nothing. It's a mistake.
Speaker 6: Now, look, officers, I don't know what this is all about,
but we have to get a plane the.
Speaker 4: Eight thirty five. I can't go downtown with you.
Speaker 10: Can we talk it over here.
Speaker 4: I'm sure we can straighten this out. Your wife copped out, Herbert.
Now let's make it easy.
Speaker 8: Huh.
Speaker 6: Come on, lady, what's he talking about?
Speaker 16: Tom? Or wife?
Speaker 11: What's he mean?
Speaker 4: I told you it's a mistake.
Speaker 8: Not be reasonable.
Speaker 4: Ah, sir. All we want to do is take a trip.
We've been planning on this. New clothes, new luggage. Here's
your head.
Speaker 6: Of course, outside's a mistake.
Speaker 8: You can't do this.
Speaker 4: We planned on it. We've been waiting a long time
for this. Yes or so we Well, let's go.
Speaker 3: The story you have just heard was true, only the
names were changed to protect the innocent.
Speaker 5: On October twenty eighth, trial was held in Superior Court,
Department eighty eight, City and County of Los Angeles, State
of California.
Speaker 10: In a moment the results of that trial, mister.
Speaker 5: And missus Tom Herbert were tried and convicted on several
counts of grand theft. They are now confined in the
state penitentiary for all the term prescribed by law. Grand
theft is punishable by confinement for not less than one
nor more than ten years. You have just heard dragnet
a series of authentic cases from official files. Technical advice
comes from the Office of Chief of Police W. H. Parker,
Los Angeles Police.
Speaker 6: David Hardy ENCOUNTERSPY solves an exciting case.
Speaker 1: Next on NBC, Welcome Back, a solid Bunco episode with
two rackets, and I think you'll find both rackets around
in one form or another today. The health insurance scam
is particularly salient. The fear of polio in those days
was huge repairents and essentially they played into that as
an opportunity to relieve that fear false hope, and you'll
see the exact same thing in so many scams today. Also,
this series continues to capture so many elements of life
in the nineteen fifties due to realism, such as the
sound of an exercise class, which is definitely a little
less sensitive than today. I can't imagine calling someone out
by name and telling them they're doing something wrong in
front of the fall class. It'd be more like, you know,
coming over subtly and saying, you know, this is what
you want to do, but not in that day, and
then of course you had the airport. Compare that to
the somewhat half hearted attempt at creating the sound of
an airport from mister Chameleon we heard a few months back. Well,
now we turn to listener comments and feedback, and we
start with this letter from Ron and Nancy and they write,
thanks Adam, keep these coming. Our daughter is an author,
so we understand and appreciate the time and effort you
put in on research. Well, thank you so much. And
then we have a comment from YouTube regarding the big
cast and a listener writes, there, I love the episodes
with small cast like this one very intense. I definitely
agree on that. And then I also have an email
on the same episode. Caleb writes, my deepest contolances to
you and your family, especially your wife on the passing
of your father in law. I will say a prayer
for all of you. Well, thank you so much. I
really do appreciate that, Caleb, and again all the kind
words we've received, and he goes on to write I
was listening to the Dragonet episode with the serial killer
and it was superb. I kept waiting for Friday Romero
to conclude that the suspect was actually just making a
false confession of some sort and was floored when it
turned out he was just so non about murdering so
many people. I really enjoyed the format of this episode
where the crime has been solved and it was really
just the interrogation and hearing from the suspect. Given the
fact that this suspect was convicted and executed for committee
multiple murders, I wasn't sure if this would be the
type of case where it would be easier or feasible
to link the episode to the real life crime. I
know there wasn't court TV, the Internet or true crime
podcast when these episodes aired, but I'm guessing that for
the really serious crimes, it would be able to figure
out the actual case upon which this was based. By comparison,
when the Dragonet episode is about a series of burglaries
or something similar, I'm assuming such a task would be impossible. Again,
my condolence is on your loss and thank you for
all of the fantastic work that you do. From Caleb
and Pennsylvania, well thanks so much. Once again, Caleb and
I did look into this. I couldn't find anything and
I and as I was thinking about it, I think
I know why, and watching the TV episode makes it clear.
At the end, they said he was convicted of murdering
the first degree. They did not say how many counts
he was convicted of, and I suspect that, based on
what we heard and saw in the episode, that Ross
was only convicted of one count, And in many ways,
it comes down to something that was discussed a few
months back regarding that concept of corpus delectime, which is
often misused, as you know, kind of a throwaway joke line,
almost with the assumption that the lack of a body
somehow prevents a murder charge. When corpus delecti isn't about
the body of the victim. It's about the body of
the crime. In essence, when we get to the point
of asking is their corpus delecti, we're asking is there
evidence that a crime actually happened with that last killing?
Even before Friday and Romero confronted him, that element was
pretty well established. There was evidence that a crime had happened,
because you had the paperwork on the sale of the car,
which was in Ross's handwriting, with him having forged the
dead man's signature. That right there proved Ross guilty of
theft and forgery and was indictivecative of other things. But then,
of course you then had the letter to the wife,
which is very hard to explain away because the letter
indicated that ross knew a bit about her husband's affairs
enough to try to attempt to write to her, and
it also indicated that ross knew that her husband would
be unable to write to her. I mean, honestly, on
what they had collected, he could have been taken to
trial and probably would have been convicted ninety percent chance.
But they did want the location of the body, which
confirmed Ross's story of how he killed him. But what
about the other cases? Is there a corpus DELECTI a
body of a crime? No? Not really. Now, in his
confession he named one other victim. In real life, he
might have named more. But does the fact that some
men went missing and Boss admitted to killing them in
that you've got evidence that there's a crime. No, not really.
Men disappear for whatever reason all the time, and there
are many hazards, both man made and otherwise, along the
highways of California, as well as some men who just
decide they want to disappear. And that someone confesses to
having killed someone doesn't itself prove a crime, because there
are many people who will say I killed someone and
in many cases they didn't. In fact, in some cases
of missing persons, people have kept stepped forward to say
I killed this person, and then the person turns up. Now,
certainly Ross could have provided details on at least some
of the cases where the police could find evidence of
his crime, but why would he? And in some cases
he might have totally forgotten details, given how many he'd
done and how calmon place and calmly he viewed the crime,
except for those that stood out in his memory. And
I think that I believe that he did kill a
lot of people from a point of view of having
watched the performances. And certainly cases at this point that
came into dragnet were ones where police officers shared a
case that they thought would be worth dragnet covering. And
certainly you can imagine that the police officer who's admitted
this believe that this person really did commit these murders.
And it certainly matches with a lot of the very cold,
nonchalant talk we've heard from some serial killers and goes
against the sort of media stereotype of the somewhat maniacal
character who is a serial killer. But actual evidence for
the rest of the crimes just didn't exist, and the prosecutor,
truth be told, didn't need you can only execute a
man once, and we don't know when this was, and
there may even have been a mandatory death penalty, and
you actually I was looking at the pages for US
serial killers, the Wikipedia entry on it, and there are
multiple serial killers who have a number of killings that
they committed and are known, but there are also a
lot that are unconfirmed. So this isn't uncommon. And this
was of course in the age before there came to
be this big focus on a true crime, although certainly
there was interest and sensational cases, and an enterprising reporter
might have gotten an article in the fourth or fifth
page of the newspaper about it based on the confession
of multiple killings, if that was something that the prosecutor
discussed or highlighted at all. But in terms of what
went to trial and what he was charged with, it
was a case of one guy killing another guy on
the highway over a small amount of money. This is
a case where I could imagine it being covered, and
there might be some article somebody finds from that era,
which really could probably be any time between the nineteen
twenties and the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 8: But if it.
Speaker 1: Wasn't properly researched, it definitely seems like something that could
also have been overlooked, particularly depending on what else might
have been going on in the news. But thanks so
much for the question. Now it's time to thank our
Patreon supporter of the day, and I want to go
ahead and thank Gary. Gary has been one of our
Patreon supporters since August twenty sixteen, currently supporting the podcast
at the Shawmus level of four dollars or more per month.
Thanks so much for your support, Gary, and that'll actually
do it for today. If you're enjoying the podcast, please
all of us using your favorite podcast software and be
sure to rate and review the podcast wherever you download
it from. We'll be back next Saturday with another episode
of Dragnet, but join us back here on Monday for
the Adventures of the Folk and Where.
Speaker 10: Hello Brooks.
Speaker 18: My name is Mike Wearing. I wonder if you could
spare me a few minutes. I'm sorry, I got no
I'm playing dots. This won't take much time. Hey bartender,
we have a couple of pints.
Speaker 5: Here I go.
Speaker 18: You want to sit at this table in all right?
You've got your blooming I hear, take a look at
my credentials. You ain't a blooming copper. No, not exactly,
but Colonel Logan suggested I talk to you.
Speaker 10: Well, I do nothing.
Speaker 6: If somebody's pinched something, well, it wasn't me.
Speaker 5: I'm sure it wasn't.
Speaker 18: I was just wondering if you ever saw anyone in
the Colonel's office after hours?
Speaker 4: Oh, like, oh.
Speaker 18: For example, like any of the men or missus Draper,
the Colonel secretary, and I mean.
Speaker 10: The spies work.
Speaker 18: What makes you ask that I go to cinema as
see now those hello's work.
Speaker 6: If I thought there was someynky panky going on there is,
what do you know?
Speaker 10: My question is what do you know?
Speaker 1: I hope you'll be with us then in the meantime,
send your comments to Box thirteen at Great Detectives dot net,
follow us on Twitter at Radio Detectives, and check us
out on Instagram, Instagram, dot com, slash Great Detectives From Boise, Idaho.
This is your host, Adam Graham signing off.