1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,919 Speaker 1: I did as promised. I wanted to talk about some news. 2 00:00:02,919 --> 00:00:05,000 You know, we mentioned band Camp on the show earlier. 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:05,879 Speaker 2: Band Camp. 4 00:00:05,919 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Two things that come up a lot on the show 5 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,560 band Camp the website of course, bandcamp dot com, and 6 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,519 AI and how AI is affecting how music is made, generated, 7 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:20,039 consumed in the music industry. And band Camp has now 8 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,600 banned AI generated music. They have made it official saying 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,440 that they want musicians to keep making music. And you know, 10 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,559 we've got kind of a point counterpoint on this to 11 00:00:29,559 --> 00:00:33,920 look at. But first, this is from Music Businessworldwide dot com. 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,159 And this just happened, by the way. They just announced 13 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,159 this ban a couple days ago. According to this website 14 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,799 direct tofan platform, band Camp said it will ban artificial 15 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,159 intelligence generated music and audio from its platform, including any 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,039 use of AI tools to impersonate other artists or styles. 17 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,920 The company made the announcement in a post on Wednesday, 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:56,880 January fourteen. 19 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: So this just happened. Like I said a few days ago. 20 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,239 Speaker 1: Quote, something that always strikes us as we put together 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,239 a round up like this is the sheer quantity of 22 00:01:08,359 --> 00:01:12,000 human creativity and passion that artists express on band Camp 23 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,799 every single day. The fact that band Camp is home 24 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,719 to such a vibrant community of real people making incredible 25 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:20,879 music is something we want to protect and maintain unquote. 26 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,120 And by the way, and this came up during our 27 00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:27,519 conversation with Adam steglitic have ever felt in the second hour, 28 00:01:29,599 --> 00:01:31,760 I think what we talked about with Adam, it was 29 00:01:31,799 --> 00:01:33,159 either with Adam or with Grimrock. 30 00:01:33,239 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: No, I think it was with Adam. We were talking 31 00:01:35,239 --> 00:01:36,159 about how band Camp. 32 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I'm such a proponent of 33 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:41,200 it is if you get your music files from band Camp, 34 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,799 You're getting a high quality music file, much higher quality 35 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,040 than say if you're just streaming it on YouTube or 36 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,200 something like that. So just something to be aware of too. 37 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,439 Band Camp is really good that way, it says here again. 38 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,959 According to this article, band Camp said music and audio 39 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,760 that has created quote holly or in substantial part by 40 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,640 AI unquote will no longer be allowed on the platform. 41 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,760 The company will also enforce existing policies against any use 42 00:02:05,799 --> 00:02:10,159 of AI tools to copy other artists or styles. The 43 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,000 company said, quote, we want musicians to keep making music 44 00:02:13,039 --> 00:02:15,919 and for fans have confidence that the music they find 45 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:21,560 on band Camp was created by humans unquote. This has 46 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:23,400 come up several times. Like I said, over the past 47 00:02:23,439 --> 00:02:25,039 couple of years. You know, Jenny and I talk about 48 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:26,960 this all the time on the show, the effect of 49 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,639 AI in the music industry and in the creation of music. 50 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,159 Speaker 2: And there are some tools like. 51 00:02:31,199 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: Pseudo dot com, which we've experimented with live on the show, 52 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,599 that they can make some really realistic sounding, you know, 53 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:41,039 music that sounds like it was made by humans, entirely 54 00:02:41,039 --> 00:02:48,360 by humans. One thing that look, it's any platform has 55 00:02:48,479 --> 00:02:52,439 the right, whether it's band Camp, whether it's YouTube, whomever. 56 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,479 As frustrating as it can be at times, any platform 57 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,000 has a right to police and control what the content is, 58 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:02,560 in this case music, when we talk about band Camp, 59 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:08,000 what the content is it is being uploaded to their platform. However, 60 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:15,599 I really worry with policies like this that because it's 61 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,840 going to happen, it's inevitable. I guess it's an extent 62 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,240 it's impossible to prevent this. So it comes down to 63 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,439 an extent to which it ends up happening. Artists are 64 00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:28,759 going to get caught in the net. And I don't 65 00:03:28,759 --> 00:03:30,840 mean net as an internet, I mean net as in 66 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,479 like a fishing net. Artists are going to get caught 67 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:40,439 in the net where whatever software band Camp is using 68 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,280 to detect AI generated music, there are going to be 69 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:49,639 artists who are flagged by band Camp as being AI generated, 70 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:53,039 who in fact are not AI generated. 71 00:03:53,159 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: It's going to happen. It's unavoidable. Okay. 72 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:02,199 Speaker 1: So I'm not saying that because that's going to happen, 73 00:04:03,879 --> 00:04:06,319 that band Camp should not do this. I'm not saying that. 74 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,960 But what I am expressing is a concern that what 75 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,840 if it happens a lot. Because anybody who's ever created 76 00:04:14,159 --> 00:04:17,959 anything that you've then put on the Internet for mass consumption, 77 00:04:18,319 --> 00:04:22,079 whether it's music, whether it's a podcast, doing a radio 78 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,920 show that you know, in addition to being live on 79 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:30,120 FM radio also streams online. Anybody who's ever created anything 80 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:35,319 knows that sometimes you can get flagged, you can get tagged, 81 00:04:35,399 --> 00:04:41,120 you can get dinged for something by these platforms that 82 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,319 is in fact, uh not correct, and you're getting blamed 83 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,279 for something that you didn't necessarily do you know. Look, 84 00:04:50,319 --> 00:04:55,319 I've been on YouTube for a very long time. You know, 85 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,079 it hasn't happened in a long time, but I have 86 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,079 in the past. More so when I was doing a 87 00:05:02,079 --> 00:05:04,639 lot more political content, I would get I would get 88 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,040 dinged by YouTube for things. So you can't say this, 89 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,720 you can't talk about that. You've got to strike on 90 00:05:09,759 --> 00:05:16,199 your account now because you said this, you repeated this, 91 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:19,360 and this is not accurate. You can't do that, you know. 92 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,680 And most of the time, not to sound like I'm 93 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,959 shirking responsibility, but most of the time it's like, wait 94 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,720 a minute, that's not what I said. They're flagging me 95 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,680 for I was quoting something somebody else said that wasn't 96 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,360 my opinion. Why are they Why am I being penalized 97 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,000 for repeating what somebody else said and making it clear? 98 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,680 But see, you know what happens is right there is 99 00:05:44,759 --> 00:05:50,439 these the bots. They it's all it's AI. See, that's 100 00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:53,120 the thing. They use AI to detect AI. That's what 101 00:05:53,199 --> 00:05:55,480 band camp is going to be doing here. They're going 102 00:05:55,519 --> 00:06:00,000 to use AI to detect when there's AI and AI. 103 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:01,319 Speaker 2: The AI that. 104 00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: They're using to detect whether or not they there's AI 105 00:06:03,959 --> 00:06:08,079 is not going to get it right every time, especially 106 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,360 when because this is a little broad when they say 107 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,879 band camp, okay, band Camp said music and audio that 108 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:25,199 is created holly or in substantial part by AI. Listen 109 00:06:26,959 --> 00:06:31,759 any any recording studio you know that that is modern 110 00:06:33,319 --> 00:06:36,959 is probably you know, probably has software in their computers 111 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:38,560 in that recording. 112 00:06:38,079 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 2: Studio that use AI to fix things, to tweak things. 113 00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so ingrained in everything, and it really 114 00:06:47,759 --> 00:06:50,600 has been with us for you know, some people act like, oh, 115 00:06:50,639 --> 00:06:51,800 AI it's this new thing. 116 00:06:51,879 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: It's not. 117 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: It's just becoming a lot more prevalent with access to 118 00:06:55,959 --> 00:06:58,519 tools like chat ebt and things like this. But AI, 119 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,759 there's always been an element of AI, not always literally, 120 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,319 but for a very long time in everything we do. 121 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,560 I mean, look, even twenty years ago, you could go online, 122 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:18,800 for example, and you could interact with chatbots. Maybe there's 123 00:07:18,839 --> 00:07:23,079 a particular service that you are having a problem with. 124 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,800 Maybe you made a purchase through a website, for example, 125 00:07:26,439 --> 00:07:29,160 and your item never arrived. There's something wrong with it. 126 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,879 So you go to the website and you try to 127 00:07:32,959 --> 00:07:36,680 contact someone to get some help with your purchase, and 128 00:07:37,399 --> 00:07:43,120 you end up talking to someone through a chat box. Right, 129 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,600 You're talking to someone, but the person you're talking to 130 00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:48,439 doesn't seem to be able to help you very much, 131 00:07:48,639 --> 00:07:51,600 or they seem to be really easily confused by what 132 00:07:51,639 --> 00:07:54,439 you're trying to communicate to them. Why, Because it's not 133 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,680 an actual person. It's a chatbot, it's a bot. It's 134 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,279 AI that's been with us for a very long so 135 00:08:02,439 --> 00:08:10,040 it's not new. It's much more prevalent, especially over the 136 00:08:10,079 --> 00:08:12,000 last couple of years. It's much more prevalent than it 137 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,040 was and will continue to be. It seems to be 138 00:08:14,079 --> 00:08:22,759 accelerating and unavoidable, but it's not perfect, and it makes mistakes. 139 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,399 It's almost makes it kind of human in that sense. 140 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,240 Right now, as it becomes more sophisticated, I presume it 141 00:08:31,279 --> 00:08:33,720 will make fewer and fewer mistakes, but it still makes mistakes. 142 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,600 So in other words, again, I say all that to say, 143 00:08:36,639 --> 00:08:38,159 people are going to get caught up in this net. 144 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,399 When I see these platforms saying well, we're going to 145 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,600 ban any use of AI in anything that is uploaded 146 00:08:43,639 --> 00:08:46,240 to our platform, It's like, but how are you going 147 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,480 to accurately detect it? And I know some will say, no, 148 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,039 there's nothing to worry about here. You'd be surprised. I've 149 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,240 had people tell me that, Matt, you'd be very surprised 150 00:08:55,639 --> 00:08:59,840 at how accurate AI can detect when there's AI being used. 151 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,879 I'm a little bit skeptical because again I'm someone who 152 00:09:04,039 --> 00:09:11,240 has seen what happens when AI tells me, for example, 153 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:14,200 that I've done something wrong on YouTube, when I didn't 154 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,720 even do the thing that I'm being accused of by 155 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:19,200 this bot, and good luck trying to talk to a 156 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,159 real person, you know. 157 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:22,159 Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong. 158 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: There's been a couple of instances where I've appealed strikes 159 00:09:25,879 --> 00:09:28,919 on my channel and one. But I've also lost some 160 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,600 too that I shouldn't have lost. But again, it's it 161 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,720 is AI. It's not a human being I'm talking to. 162 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:40,000 So so that's my concern about this. 163 00:09:40,159 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 2: Again. 164 00:09:40,519 --> 00:09:42,879 Speaker 1: Ultimately, they can do whatever they want, it's their platform, 165 00:09:42,919 --> 00:09:45,000 but I worry about people getting caught up in the 166 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,320 net who shouldn't be. It also says here again continuing 167 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,759 with this article, This is from Music Businessworldwide dot com. 168 00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:53,440 It says band Camp said the new policy was driven 169 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,159 by quote the sheer quantity of human creativity and passion 170 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,679 that artists express on band Camp every single day. Users 171 00:10:01,759 --> 00:10:05,080 will be able to report suspected AI generated content through 172 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,320 band Camp's reporting tools. The company says it reserves the 173 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,080 right to remove music based on suspicion of AI generation. 174 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:13,799 The company said it will update the policy as AI 175 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:17,559 technology continues to develop. The announcement comes over four months 176 00:10:17,639 --> 00:10:20,879 since band camp launched a new thirteen dollars a month 177 00:10:21,039 --> 00:10:25,720 subscription service that is human curated. The service gives users 178 00:10:25,759 --> 00:10:31,399 access to monthly recorded selections, listening parties, recommendations, and exclusive 179 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:38,159 artists content. Band Camp general manager Dan Melnick at the 180 00:10:38,159 --> 00:10:41,720 time said, quote, instead of algorithms, fans get human curated 181 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:44,679 picks from some of the best DJs and journalists in 182 00:10:44,759 --> 00:10:49,440 their respective areas, exclusive interviews with artists, and community listening parties. 183 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,480 Vibrant music scenes are made up of dja's journalists, fans, 184 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,960 and artists, and band camp clubs reflect that as always, 185 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,799 artists are paid fairly and at the heart of the experience. 186 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:04,399 Speaker 2: Unquote all right, well, I like that. I like that. 187 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: Founded in two thousand and eight, band camp launched as 188 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,759 a direct to consumer alternative to record labels for artists. 189 00:11:12,039 --> 00:11:14,759 It has since expanded its services to include features such 190 00:11:14,799 --> 00:11:19,200 as ticket live streaming, and vinyl pressing. Artists like Peter 191 00:11:19,279 --> 00:11:23,559 Gabriel and b York have placed their catalogs on the platform. 192 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:25,840 All Right, I don't want to get into the whole 193 00:11:25,919 --> 00:11:30,919 history of band camp, but uh okay, and then it 194 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:33,279 gets into some more details about band Camp. Oh, I'm 195 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,919 skipping down though, because Spotify is mentioned here and I 196 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,879 remember we talked about this on the show too, and 197 00:11:37,919 --> 00:11:40,919 I expressed the same concern when talking about Spotify removing 198 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,480 AI generated music. Some artists are going to get caught 199 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,360 in the net, it says here. Spotify in September said 200 00:11:46,399 --> 00:11:52,080 it removed more than seventy five million spammy tracks from 201 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,120 its platform over the past year. Amid the explosion of 202 00:11:55,279 --> 00:11:59,000 generative AI tools, the streaming giant rolled out new policies 203 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,000 for managing AIG generated content on its service to address that. 204 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,000 In November, French streaming platform Deezer said it receives over 205 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:13,519 fifty thousand fully AI generated tracks daily, or thirty four 206 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,720 percent of all tracks uploaded to its platform each day. 207 00:12:16,879 --> 00:12:22,399 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's nuts. That is wild. Now. So 208 00:12:23,639 --> 00:12:27,879 that's band Camp's position. Now someone has. 209 00:12:27,759 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: Offered a I don't know if rebuke is quite the 210 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:34,000 right word, but there's an artist because you would think 211 00:12:35,399 --> 00:12:38,519 you would think recording artists would be in favor of 212 00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:41,559 what band camp is doing, and probably most are. But 213 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,440 Holly Herndon says band Camp's AI ban is misguided. This 214 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,320 comes from stereogum dot com. This went up just yesterday. 215 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,799 Earlier this week, band Camp issued a blanket ban on 216 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,720 generative AI and deep fake impersonations. The new measure makes 217 00:12:59,759 --> 00:13:02,960 band Camp an exception on the streaming landscape where AI 218 00:13:03,039 --> 00:13:06,000 music is becoming more and more inescapable. Most of the 219 00:13:06,039 --> 00:13:09,440 reactions to this bandcam announcement were positive, but one artist 220 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:15,039 who's not applauding it is Holly Herndon, an experimental artist 221 00:13:15,279 --> 00:13:18,200 who has long messed around with what she sees as 222 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,039 the artistic possibilities of AI technology. Holly Herndon has a 223 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,000 PhD from Stanford's Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics, 224 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,000 and she has made her most recent album, twenty nineteen's 225 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:36,080 Proto with Spawn and AI Baby, curated by Herndon and 226 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:41,240 her partner Matt Dryhurst. A few years ago, Herndon and 227 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:49,200 Dryhurst launched Spawning, a tool that allows artists to choose 228 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,799 whether or not their work will be used to train AI, 229 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:58,240 and that work earned them Austria's first Digital Human Rights Award. Interesting, 230 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,159 I didn't know that was the thing. On Wednesday, in 231 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:06,919 response to Bandcamp's new policy, Herndon tweeted this, putting the 232 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,559 ban in band Camp. It is a wicked problem, so 233 00:14:10,639 --> 00:14:13,440 I understand what they are trying to do. I'm sure 234 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:17,159 the human moderators won't be banning artists exploring AI. Rather, 235 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,039 I hope, will just be looking to filter out sound spam. 236 00:14:21,679 --> 00:14:27,919 The gray area will only get larger m HM. After 237 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,519 a negative response to that tweet, Herndon elaborated with a thread. 238 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,879 She said this, I understand why band camp is taking 239 00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:41,600 this measure, but it's a tourniquet. The human AI binary 240 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:44,240 is not going to hold and will become a matter 241 00:14:44,279 --> 00:14:47,840 of superficial optics. I already have more authorship in my 242 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,279 models than most pop stars do in their songs. People 243 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,679 will already be using models to generate songs they then 244 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:59,679 put a human filter on. Artists will integrate generated passages 245 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,080 into they orchestrate, and will soon train their own models. 246 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:06,919 Another protection might be to flag accounts it posts on 247 00:15:07,279 --> 00:15:12,600 an inhuman amount of content, but that too may seem retrograde. 248 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,799 We live with infinite media now. I encourage platforms to 249 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,159 be more curated, but enforcing a hard human AI binary 250 00:15:21,759 --> 00:15:24,080 is not the right way to address this long term. 251 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,120 If an expert uses AI to help them write an article, 252 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,279 they otherwise would not have the time to complete it 253 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,360 will not be of less substance than a non expert 254 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,039 with time on their hands writing something by hand. A 255 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,720 practice or reputation of thought and work developed over time 256 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:45,120 is the best filter. The contemporary demand for twenty four 257 00:15:45,159 --> 00:15:54,840 to seven content from people is the problem. So that's 258 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,840 that's basically her argument. So she's concerned. She has some 259 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:01,240 of the same concerns you, I mean from a little 260 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,879 bit of a you know, from a different perspective. 261 00:16:02,919 --> 00:16:03,879 Speaker 2: But but. 262 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think the tooth based is probably 263 00:16:09,399 --> 00:16:12,600 pretty far out of the tube at this point. As 264 00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:17,559 I like to say, Now, there's another element to this though, 265 00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:20,200 and this is this is the part that people don't 266 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,559 talk about very much. But this came up on the 267 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:28,399 show not long ago. These streaming platforms because of the 268 00:16:28,519 --> 00:16:32,559 rise of AI generated music and and how easy it 269 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:34,399 is to make it, and and it is a form 270 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,480 of spam. I think Holly Herndon referred to it as 271 00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:39,200 sound spam when you just if you just make a 272 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,320 whole bunch of AI tracks and just upload them all 273 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,480 at once to Spotify and bandcamp, YouTube and wherever else, 274 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,240 it does cause a problem. Uh, in terms of storage 275 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,440 because you know, we like to think of you know, 276 00:16:52,519 --> 00:16:57,600 it's just data. It's not it's not something, uh you 277 00:16:57,639 --> 00:16:59,559 know that you can touch or feel or it's or 278 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,159 hold it. It's data is Therefore, there's just a It 279 00:17:03,159 --> 00:17:05,519 doesn't take up any actual room anywhere. You just have 280 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,599 this infinite amount of storage space to put data. But 281 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:09,480 that's not true. 282 00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:11,079 Speaker 2: You have to. 283 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,319 Speaker 1: You do have to create the physical mechanisms with which 284 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,480 to store that data, and you do have to make 285 00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:19,559 more of those if you more and more data you 286 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,759 have to store. So if you think about this, I 287 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:27,240 don't know the numbers offhand how many different song files 288 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:30,599 are on band Camp and Spotify, and obviously it's in 289 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,119 the millions, perhaps in the billions, I don't know. But 290 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,640 if if that's all been ratcheted up exponentially because of 291 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,240 the rise and the ease with which you can create 292 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,559 AI generated music, then that's a problem. So of course 293 00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:48,720 they have to find ways to filter this stuff out. 294 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,680 And then I found this. This is on Music Businessworldwide 295 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,359 dot com And this just went up a couple of 296 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:56,880 days ago. 297 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: Music streaming. 298 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: Music streaming platform now host a quarter of a billion tracks. 299 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: Where does it end? 300 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: And uh, this is Uh, this is short, but it 301 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,119 just kind of gives us an idea of the scope 302 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,880 of the concern here, So it says here there were 303 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,640 two hundred and fifty three million music tracks sitting on 304 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,920 audio streaming services at the close of twenty twenty five 305 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,680 yep over a quarter of a million. According to new 306 00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:35,960 data from Lumini's new annual report, that was that was 307 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:41,799 up only thirty seven point nine million tracks, an average 308 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:48,279 of one hundred and six thousand uploads per day. Most 309 00:18:48,279 --> 00:18:52,680 of this music was far from popular. Almost half of 310 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,680 the two hundred and fifty three million files hosted by 311 00:18:56,759 --> 00:19:01,519 audio platforms received fewer than ten streams last year, Almost 312 00:19:01,559 --> 00:19:05,039 three quarters of it received fewer than one hundred annual streams, 313 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,160 and nearly nine tenths of it received fewer than one 314 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,880 thousand annual streams. We're obviously a long long way from 315 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,559 Apple's promise to deliver one thousand songs. 316 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 2: In your pocket with the iPod. 317 00:19:16,279 --> 00:19:21,759 Speaker 1: Yes, as AI generated music proliferates, are we now just 318 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:25,000 a few short years from the likes of Spotify hosting 319 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:30,319 quote one billion songs in your pocket. And wouldn't such 320 00:19:30,319 --> 00:19:34,160 a tidal wave of content inevitably swamp digital services while 321 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,599 hurting artists, songwriters and the perceived value of music amongst consumers. 322 00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 2: This is all. 323 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: These are all legitimate concerns. In my opinion, I don't 324 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,000 know what the answer is. By the way, off, I'm 325 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,039 not here to offer solutions because I have no idea 326 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,079 what the answer is to this. But these are legitimate concerns. 327 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,279 Universal Music Group CEO and chairman Sir Lucian Grange certainly 328 00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:59,839 thinks so, and he's keen to stop it from happening. 329 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,680 Last week, Grange delivered a stark warning about AI generated 330 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,960 content overwhelming streaming platforms. In his twenty twenty six New 331 00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:12,880 Year's Address. He wrote, quote, validating business models that failed 332 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,960 to respect artists' work and creativity and promote the exponential 333 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,359 growth of AI slop on streaming platforms is a grave 334 00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:24,200 disservice to artists', songwriters and all of us who work 335 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,440 in music unquote, this warning was not theoretical. Last year 336 00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:33,920 Spotify removed think think about these numbers. Last year, Spotify 337 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,200 removed over seventy five million spammy tracks from its platform, 338 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,359 while rival Deezer reported receiving fifty thousand fully AI generated 339 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,480 tracks per day, accounting for thirty four percent. 340 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,079 Speaker 2: Of all daily uploads. 341 00:20:54,039 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: So think about that. So on any given day, deezer, 342 00:20:58,079 --> 00:21:01,839 what's being uploaded? A third of it a third is 343 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,960 AI generated tracks. Yet despite this aggressive purging of content, 344 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,640 the total amount of music and the global audio streaming 345 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,839 ecosystem continued to soar. In twenty twenty five. Discussion around 346 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,599 tracks that attract fewer than one thousand streams per year is, 347 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,680 of course particularly relevant. Here illuminates new numbers help illustrate why, 348 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,799 with UMG's encouragement, audio streaming services moved toward artist centric 349 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,440 style payment models a couple of years ago, and why 350 00:21:31,519 --> 00:21:35,440 these models are now increasingly being stress tested by AI. 351 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: In early twenty twenty. 352 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: Four, Spotify introduced a threshold requiring tracks to attract at 353 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,799 least one thousand plays in a twelve month period to 354 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,039 qualify for royalty payouts, which a lot of people were 355 00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:48,440 mad about. 356 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,039 Speaker 2: They were critical of I get it though at. 357 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: The time Spotify said ninety nine point five percent of 358 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,839 streams on its platform went to tracks exceeding the one 359 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,599 thousand annual streams threshold. 360 00:21:58,799 --> 00:21:59,519 Speaker 2: Under its new. 361 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: Policy, it's said each of those tracks would earn more 362 00:22:01,839 --> 00:22:05,160 with payouts previously going to sub one thousand stream tracks 363 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,319 redirected back into the royalty pool. Deezer's artist centric model, 364 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,599 launched in partnership with you Universal and Warner, achieved a 365 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,440 similar aim, providing a double boost in royalties to artists 366 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,400 with a minimum of one thousand streams per month and 367 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:19,799 five hundred unique listeners. 368 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 2: This goes on. 369 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: There's a lot of numbers here, and we don't have 370 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,559 time to get into all of it, but the article 371 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,599 isn't that long, so if you want to check it out, 372 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,599 Music Businessworldwide dot com, which is a great website for 373 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,319 music news if you're interested in the industry and so forth. 374 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,039 But we are rapidly running out of time, so I 375 00:22:39,079 --> 00:22:42,160 think we will close with that