Speaker 1: All right, joining us now.
Speaker 2: We're honored to have a pastor Chuck Baldwin of Liberty
Speaker 2: Fellowship in Montana. You can find the website at Libertyfellowship,
Speaker 2: mt from Montana dot com. Also Chuck Baldwin Live dot com.
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3: Sir David's quickly with you. Thank you.
Speaker 2: It's been a long time since we've talked. Because of
Speaker 2: timing and scheduling and things like that, you're only able
Speaker 2: to do interviews in the afternoon. I wasn't able to
Speaker 2: do that at Info Wars.
Speaker 1: But we're able to do that here.
Speaker 2: So I want to get you back on with what
Speaker 2: is happening now. You've got a book that you're selling
Speaker 2: at your website. We'll get into that a little bit.
Speaker 2: But last time I interviewed you, we talked about another
Speaker 2: book that you and your son had done, Romans thirteen,
Speaker 2: and it seems like people did not understand Romans thirteen
Speaker 2: or I don't think that we would have gone through
Speaker 2: what we went through in twenty twenty with lockdown churches
Speaker 2: and all the rest of stuff. I remember when we talked,
Speaker 2: you know, the standard line was you do whatever the
Speaker 2: government says unless they start infringing on your religious freedom
Speaker 2: and said the time, I don't believe that they're going
Speaker 2: to stand up for their religious freedom if they take
Speaker 2: that tact. And of course we saw when the lockdown
Speaker 2: happened under Trump that they didn't tell us a little
Speaker 2: bit about your opinion about what happened with that and
Speaker 2: the aftermath of it.
Speaker 3: Well, I think what we saw was exactly the open
Speaker 3: demonstration of what you and I had discussed. Yeah, that
Speaker 3: is that the Walton took the case of Romans thirteen,
Speaker 3: and you alluded to the book that my attorney's son
Speaker 3: and I wrote, Romans thirteen is true meaning of submission,
Speaker 3: And we took all of the verses in well not all,
Speaker 3: but the vast majority of the verses in both Testaments
Speaker 3: Old and Knew to show that nowhere does God command
Speaker 3: his people to submit to evil authority, and that doctrine
Speaker 3: of submission to civil authority, per the first couple of
Speaker 3: verses of Roman Stepter thirteen, has made sheepy servants of
Speaker 3: the state out of what should have been and once
Speaker 3: were courageous, bold men of God, unafraid to speak truth
Speaker 3: to power and to resist the attempts of those in authority.
Speaker 3: To make slaves out of God's people. We are servants
Speaker 3: to only one and that's Jesus Christ. So I think
Speaker 3: that the doctrine, the false doctrine of Romans thirteen, as
Speaker 3: it has been taught the not a part of the
Speaker 3: twentieth century and in the twenty first century, has produced
Speaker 3: exactly everything that we saw a demonstrated during the Covid tyranny.
Speaker 3: And I think the evidence of that still continues today.
Speaker 3: But you know, before, you know, it was always about
Speaker 3: something that they consider to be non biblical. You know,
Speaker 3: if you are talking about abortion, if you are talking
Speaker 3: about the intrusion of our Fourth Amendment liberties and invasion
Speaker 3: of our privacy and the Second Amendment and all of
Speaker 3: these these issues constitutional issues, these Romans thirteen preachers in
Speaker 3: Christians would say, well, you know, God's called me to
Speaker 3: preach the Gospel, and I'm not going to preach that.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to get involved in all these quote
Speaker 3: unquote political things. And when you know, when they tell
Speaker 3: me I can't preach the Gospel, then then I'll show
Speaker 3: you know, some resistance. And they would they would pu
Speaker 3: who any attempt to stand for basic fundamental God given
Speaker 3: liberties and they use Must thirteen as a cop out. Well,
Speaker 3: then COVID came along and guess what they said. You
Speaker 3: can't meet in your church services, you can't preach, you
Speaker 3: can't assemble, you can't observe your Resurrection Day services, observe
Speaker 3: the birth of Christ. I mean all these are now,
Speaker 3: these are not constitutional issues. These are you know, basic
Speaker 3: fundamental biblical issues. And pastors just rolled over shut the churches,
Speaker 3: didn't have have, you know, their meetings, They shut down
Speaker 3: their operations entirely, and they proved that they are truly
Speaker 3: nothing more than slaves of the state. So I think
Speaker 3: that was a great wake up call to the condition
Speaker 3: of the church.
Speaker 2: I agree, and a big part of that is that
Speaker 2: they want to at all costs avoid any kind of
Speaker 2: political controversy.
Speaker 1: You don't do that.
Speaker 2: And I appreciate that you speak to what people are
Speaker 2: living in their daily life and you say, this is
Speaker 2: how we think the biblical principles apply here. And I
Speaker 2: think that is something that sadly missing in most of
Speaker 2: the church. And we had a lot of people. There
Speaker 2: were a few churches that never closed, and I interviewed
Speaker 2: some of those pastors. There were some churches that closed
Speaker 2: for a while then just kind of came to their
Speaker 2: senses or whatever and reopened up, and some of them
Speaker 2: talked about the fact that they got it wrong, that
Speaker 2: they interpreted that wrong, and they would never do it again.
Speaker 2: But there were some very big churches that did not
Speaker 2: go back, even though they opened up, and even though
Speaker 2: they had fights, they never went back and corrected their
Speaker 2: commentaries or their statements on their website or what they
Speaker 2: told people about Romans thirteen. And I think that's very important. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, we can all make mistakes. We can all
Speaker 2: make mistakes, but we need to be public about it.
Speaker 2: The way I look at it, a lot of people
Speaker 2: who shut down for four or five months and then
Speaker 2: opened up and then got into big fights with the
Speaker 2: government over it, they just kind of ignored what had
Speaker 2: happened those first four or five months.
Speaker 1: I think that's kind.
Speaker 2: Of like a pastor who's been caught an adulterous affair
Speaker 2: just kind of say, well, let's forget about that, will
Speaker 2: move on.
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, it's hard for I don't know why,
Speaker 3: but it's we've reached a point in our in our
Speaker 3: history were I don't know, somehow it's a sign of
Speaker 3: weakness or something if you acknowledge that you were wrong
Speaker 3: and what you taught from the pulpit. I mean, I've
Speaker 3: reme into this with the designers issue and big, big time.
Speaker 3: That's you know. But you know, for example, there was
Speaker 3: John MacArthur who recently passed away, a pastor of a
Speaker 3: large church in southern California, well known writer and broadcaster.
Speaker 3: He was a man that four decades throughout his career,
Speaker 3: he would impune pastors around the country who would resist
Speaker 3: governmental usurpation of their power to intrude upon the freedom
Speaker 3: of speech and the freedom of religion, and go forth
Speaker 3: on even the freedom of assembly in certain cases, and
Speaker 3: he would castigate them as being disobedient to Romans thirteen.
Speaker 3: And he was one of the most foremost advocates of
Speaker 3: the false doctumne of Romans thirteen in the country, and
Speaker 3: because of his influence, he impacted a lot of fellow pastors.
Speaker 3: Then when COVID hit and his church was hit personally
Speaker 3: there in California, you know how California was about everything,
Speaker 3: and so he actually reversed his position on that issue,
Speaker 3: and he challenged the authority of the state of California
Speaker 3: to close his church, and so forth, and he actually
Speaker 3: was willing to go to court to fight it. So
Speaker 3: I admire him for doing that. But Bill, to your point,
Speaker 3: he never one time during all that period of contest
Speaker 3: between him and the State of California, he never one
Speaker 3: time public had got up and said, you know, I
Speaker 3: was wrong in the past. You know, all these other
Speaker 3: issues that men of God, you know, we're fighting a
Speaker 3: long time before I fought this issue. You know, they
Speaker 3: were fighting issues of freedom and faith for a long time,
Speaker 3: and some of them were paying a very heavy price,
Speaker 3: were resisting, and he never took their side. He always
Speaker 3: condemned them for violating when I was thirteen. Now he's
Speaker 3: doing the same thing, and he's resisting the you know
Speaker 3: the I.
Speaker 1: Remember when that happened.
Speaker 2: He shut down from what was at March till about
Speaker 2: in July or whatever, and then they opened up. I
Speaker 2: think really the final straw when they said all right,
Speaker 2: all right, you can get together, but you can't sing.
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, we're done with this nonsense. But like
Speaker 2: you said, he didn't go back and change his commentaries
Speaker 2: or anything. And a year later you had Todd Friel,
Speaker 2: who was also fairly well known on YouTube and other
Speaker 2: places and very connected to MacArthur. As they were getting
Speaker 2: ready to roll out the vaccine mandates in September, he
Speaker 2: said in August again, you know the Romans thirteen line,
Speaker 2: and he said, and look, John MacArthur says this, this
Speaker 2: is this, And I played the clip and I said, yeah,
Speaker 2: but that's not what John McArthur has been doing for
Speaker 2: the last year. Maybe you need to take a look
Speaker 2: at the difference between what he said in his former
Speaker 2: commentaries and what he's actually doing today. And I thought
Speaker 2: that was what cod Friel said. I call him pinwheel
Speaker 2: freel because he said, if government tells you wear pinwheels
Speaker 2: on your head, you wear pinwheels on your head. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: but you don't have to become a pincushion for a
Speaker 2: poisonous kool aid injection.
Speaker 1: That's the insanity of all this stuff.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think when I look at it, let
Speaker 2: me get your take on this, I look at it
Speaker 2: as from in a political sphere. When they become when
Speaker 2: they're installed in their office, government employees swear to pull
Speaker 2: the Constitution and so their authority comes from the Constitution
Speaker 2: and it comes from their fealty to it. And if
Speaker 2: they are in rebellion to the Constitution, they don't have
Speaker 2: any authority. And I see Romas thirteen in the same
Speaker 2: way that you know Romas thirteen. He talks about authority
Speaker 2: coming from God. He's established these governments. Well, how do
Speaker 2: we know if it's a legitimate government. Well, we can
Speaker 2: take a look at what they're doing. And if what
Speaker 2: they're doing is in a rebellion to God, then they
Speaker 2: don't have authority. It's just like if they were rebelling
Speaker 2: against the Constitution.
Speaker 1: What do you think I think I mean?
Speaker 3: In our book, we make that, we make that very
Speaker 3: clear that Romans thirteen was not giving a blank check
Speaker 3: to civil authority to run roughshod over the God given
Speaker 3: liberties of the people. In fact, that that same passage
Speaker 3: in Romans chapter thirteen that talks in the early verses
Speaker 3: about submitted to the higher power. And you keep reading
Speaker 3: and they always stop at verse two, but reading it
Speaker 3: like for example of verse three, for rulers. Civil rulers
Speaker 3: are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 3: Well, so then be afraid the power do that which
Speaker 3: is good. That's out praise are the same for he
Speaker 3: is the verse verse four, he is the minister of
Speaker 3: God to be for good. So at the same time
Speaker 3: that Roman's thirteen tells us to admit to government, it's
Speaker 3: telling government that government has the responsibility to be good, righteous,
Speaker 3: and just in their implementation of law. And if they
Speaker 3: are not good, righteous and just in their implication of law,
Speaker 3: there is no implication in the duty of the Christian
Speaker 3: to submit to that evil. I mean, so that's like saying, Okay,
Speaker 3: you know, if the government commands you to do such
Speaker 3: and such, which is obviously evil, unjust, immoral, et cetera,
Speaker 3: you have no moral authority to submit to that. In fact,
Speaker 3: you have a moral authority to resist that.
Speaker 1: I agree.
Speaker 3: Well, that's a part of the entire passage. So yes,
Speaker 3: it's a twofold. You know, it's a responsibility on government
Speaker 3: to be good and righteous adjust and when government is good,
Speaker 3: righteous and just, and you should have the support of
Speaker 3: the people. But when government is not good, righteous and just,
Speaker 3: it should not have supported the people. So that is
Speaker 3: clearly defined in Roman Scepter thirteen as well, because I
Speaker 3: just choose to skip over those verses.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I absolutely agree. Well, we're talking about civil government.
Speaker 2: We just had the eightieth anniversary of Hiroshima. I'm curious
Speaker 2: to get your take on this and if you think
Speaker 2: that fits in and what I look we talk about
Speaker 2: frequently is a just war theory, which was something that's
Speaker 2: been put out by many Christians trying to restrain the
Speaker 2: evil of war as much as possible, and trying to
Speaker 2: restrain the way that it's conducted and the conditions under
Speaker 2: which it has fought.
Speaker 1: How do you view Hiroshima.
Speaker 3: All. I think it was one of the greatest greatest
Speaker 3: tragedies in US history. I think it's it is an
Speaker 3: everlasting blight on the reputation of a nation that was
Speaker 3: supposed to be the city on the hill, the nation
Speaker 3: that at the standard of good government, honesty in government,
Speaker 3: righteousness and government, a protector of humanity, a protector of life,
Speaker 3: a protector of freedom, all everything that America was stolid on,
Speaker 3: you know, the goodness of government and the righteousness and
Speaker 3: the accountability of government to we the people. And they
Speaker 3: were straight on government by the constitution and the rule
Speaker 3: of law over the will of man, and all these
Speaker 3: principles upon which America was founded. When we dropped those
Speaker 3: bombs on Nagasaki and Niroshima, atomic bombs by the way
Speaker 3: we're the only nation in the history of the world
Speaker 3: that was ever used in the Yes, what a reputation.
Speaker 2: And on a civilian target as well, And that's the
Speaker 2: key thing, isn't it the civilians and they're not a
Speaker 2: civilian target?
Speaker 1: And I think that's the key thing. Isn't it the.
Speaker 2: Fact that and that was that was really kind of
Speaker 2: a hallmark, a turning point, I think in World War
Speaker 2: Two of attacking civilians and both sides did it. There
Speaker 2: was a bombing of London, then they retaliated with Dresden
Speaker 2: and Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and it's really heinous. It's something
Speaker 2: that I think Western civilization kind of went straight down
Speaker 2: the tubes with that.
Speaker 1: We haven't recovered since then.
Speaker 3: No, In fact, I think we're still seeing it being
Speaker 3: played out today in the genocide.
Speaker 1: And gossp Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: And the way that the American government is supporting the
Speaker 3: want and slaughter, genocide, identic cleansing, all of the above
Speaker 3: committed by Israel with America's total support. We're supplying the weapons,
Speaker 3: the bombs, the missiles, the munitions, with the intelligence you know,
Speaker 3: CIA and Masada working hand in hand to implement all
Speaker 3: this all this atrocity, and you know, all that I
Speaker 3: think is just a continuation of what happened at the
Speaker 3: end of World War Two. With the dropping of those
Speaker 3: two upcoming bombs, we lost. It did more than then
Speaker 3: just kill undreds of thousands of innocent civilian Japanese People's
Speaker 3: hear the conscience of the American government.
Speaker 1: That's a good way where.
Speaker 3: The American government felt like, well, we have we have
Speaker 3: the right. We are morally superior to anyone else in
Speaker 3: the world. We can define goodness and righteousness as we
Speaker 3: want to. We are the exceptional nation and we have
Speaker 3: the power to do it, and so we can do
Speaker 3: anything we want. And so we are seeing that today
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five, which is just a continuation of
Speaker 3: the false war doctrum, the unjust war doctrine of the
Speaker 3: end of World War two.
Speaker 2: I absolutely I agree. Yeah many times the excuses made
Speaker 2: by Depentagon on others that well, that allowed us in
Speaker 2: the war early. But if they had used that against
Speaker 2: military forces, I think it would have had the same effect.
Speaker 2: The key thing is that the targeting of civilians, which
Speaker 2: is what we're seeing in God now, and the idea
Speaker 2: that we don't start wars now we start wars preemptively,
Speaker 2: and that was in the beginning of World War Two.
Speaker 2: That was something that was a day of infamy when
Speaker 2: the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. Now, of course we know
Speaker 2: that FDR stood down and invited that in many different ways. Nevertheless,
Speaker 2: for them to initiate war that has still been everybody
Speaker 2: understands that. You know, there's always an argument as to
Speaker 2: who began the war. We see that argument playing out
Speaker 2: between Israel and Gaza. We said, argument playing out between
Speaker 2: Russia and Ukraine. So everybody understands that that is unjust.
Speaker 2: And what I'm concerned about when I look at what's
Speaker 2: happening with Israel and with much of this other stuff
Speaker 2: that Christians are cheering, is that even atheists and Pagans
Speaker 2: understand instinctively the right and wrong about starting wars, the
Speaker 2: right and wrong about targeting civilians and sustaining this when
Speaker 2: there's no threat to you. And it is really amazing
Speaker 2: to me to see Christians who are sharing this.
Speaker 1: Type of thing.
Speaker 2: But of course that is coming out of well, I
Speaker 2: think is a bad theology. And you've got a book
Speaker 2: that addresses that, the incredible Schofield and his book I
Speaker 2: think you have on your website tells a little bit
Speaker 2: about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is the most thoroughly documented and fully researched
Speaker 3: biography of Cyrus Schofield ever written. And when you were
Speaker 3: talking about what you just said that the whole emphasus
Speaker 3: behind that is build Field. Futurism also called dispensationalism, also
Speaker 3: called person Zionism, and it was started not by Scholfield,
Speaker 3: but by a man named John Darby, who was a
Speaker 3: generation in front of Billfield, but they overlapped in the
Speaker 3: latter years of Darby's life and a Darby disciple, by
Speaker 3: the way, the idea of a rapture by a pre
Speaker 3: second coming resurrection of Christian people, that concept was never
Speaker 3: taught in church history from the time of Jesus all
Speaker 3: the way up until the mid eighteen hundreds. Yes, so
Speaker 3: for over eighteen hundred years there was never a doctrine
Speaker 3: called the rapture or dispensationalism or futurism, we'll call what
Speaker 3: you will.
Speaker 1: And yet now that is pretty much taken over. That's
Speaker 1: pretty much taken over in terms of American Christianity.
Speaker 3: Has oh yeah, absolutely dominant. Yeah, But the history of
Speaker 3: it is there was a Prophecy conference in Glasgow, Gotland,
Speaker 3: and I think the year was eighteen thirty and there
Speaker 3: was a a woman who self identified trans channeler Margaret
Speaker 3: mc donald I believe was a name, and she spoke
Speaker 3: in this conference and you know, this whole trans channeling stuff,
Speaker 3: that's that's the mind, and she went into a trance
Speaker 3: on stage and she started to babble forth this two
Speaker 3: stage return of Christ, with the book called Rapture being
Speaker 3: stage number one. And that was that was the first
Speaker 3: time that I can find in my research where in
Speaker 3: church history that doctrine was taught. And it wasn't really
Speaker 3: even taught. It wasn't a pastor getting up and expounding
Speaker 3: the scriptures. It was this demonic trans channeler that went
Speaker 3: into a trance and you know, said that this is
Speaker 3: what she was shown by the spirit and all this
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. So the whole beginning of the Rapture
Speaker 3: was demonic in my view. Well, anyway, it was picked
Speaker 3: up by the founder of the Plymouth brother by the
Speaker 3: name of John Darby. He became the champion of this doctrine.
Speaker 3: He had a man that disciples of B. S. Scholfield,
Speaker 3: who was young at the time and Schofield was a
Speaker 3: con man. He was a fraud. He was a thief.
Speaker 3: He spent six months in jail for a fraud. He
Speaker 3: was a deserter of his family. He walked out on
Speaker 3: his wife. And now we're talking. You know, this is
Speaker 3: the mid eighteen hundreds. There was no social security, there
Speaker 3: was no welfare, there were no benefits. I mean he
Speaker 3: just left his two little girls and his wife. He
Speaker 3: you know, gave himself a lawyer title. He never went
Speaker 3: to law school. He never he was never a lawyer,
Speaker 3: but he put a law degree behind his name and
Speaker 3: he started working in law after his so called conversion
Speaker 3: and he got onto his religious kick. He gave himself
Speaker 3: a theological degree that he never earned. He never went
Speaker 3: to college. But you know, if you if you look
Speaker 3: at the Schoolfield Bible, I'll say virus I Scholfield d
Speaker 3: d Well. That's just the degree that he gave himself.
Speaker 3: I mean, this man was a fraud's fraud. He was
Speaker 3: the conman's comman. I mean he's you know, he would
Speaker 3: have made P. T. Barnum jealous. Yeah, this and this
Speaker 3: is the guy that founded what we now know is
Speaker 3: Christmas is over Schoolfield futurisms, and the thing that the
Speaker 3: genius of it, the thing that made it. Sufficely say,
Speaker 3: why how did this sweep the country and become vogue,
Speaker 3: you know, and seminaries and Bible colleges and churches all
Speaker 3: across the United States. The genius of it was. I
Speaker 3: got to explain this to you just a minute to
Speaker 3: help you understand how this became so popular. It didn't
Speaker 3: become popular because of the doctrine. It didn't become popular
Speaker 3: because of what was being said in the Bible until
Speaker 3: the Thomas Schofield Bible dollars. You go back into the
Speaker 3: post Reformation days like Adam Clark and Ala Barnes and
Speaker 3: Matthew Henry and John Gill and all these James and
Speaker 3: Fosset and Brown, you name it. All these commentators. Whenever
Speaker 3: they would study the Scripture, they would they would write
Speaker 3: their commentaries in a separate book. They would not put
Speaker 3: their words on the same page as the words of God,
Speaker 3: because they had such a holy reverence for the words
Speaker 3: of God that they felt it would be sacrilege for
Speaker 3: them to put their words their commentaries in the same
Speaker 3: page as the scripture. Well, therefore they would write their
Speaker 3: books in a separate and a complete, separate volume. So
Speaker 3: if you wanted to read the Matthew Henard commentaries, for example,
Speaker 3: the classic foremost commentary of all the time, you would
Speaker 3: have to have your open Bible on one side of
Speaker 3: the desk and then your open Matthew Henry commentary on
Speaker 3: the other side of the desk and look back and forth.
Speaker 3: And that's how you had to study and learn. So
Speaker 3: what Schopfield did He ignored that and he put his
Speaker 3: comments on the same page as the Bible, so whenever
Speaker 3: you open the Bible, you had the scripture versus and
Speaker 3: his commentary on the same page. Well, this was a
Speaker 3: breakthrough in that it was such a convenience for people.
Speaker 3: You didn't have to carry two books around, you know,
Speaker 3: to look back and forth. You could just open the
Speaker 3: Bible and you had the commentary and the Bible on
Speaker 3: the same page. So it was a marketing tool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we see that today.
Speaker 2: I walk into a Bible store and they've got a
Speaker 2: different They got a Bible for different professions let's say, right,
Speaker 2: you know, or for men or for women or whatever,
Speaker 2: and they dress up the cover and they'll have stuff
Speaker 2: in there about the profession or this or that, and
Speaker 2: they'll try to tie it into whatever section of the Bible.
Speaker 1: Then, but it's all about marketing, all.
Speaker 3: Right, right, And then all got that from Skillfield. He's
Speaker 3: the one that started that. And that's and that's why
Speaker 3: a big name is so popular. Wasn't because of what
Speaker 3: he wrote. It was because of the marketing tool in
Speaker 3: the way that the book was published, and of course
Speaker 3: it was financed by Oxford Press. Oxford Press was owned
Speaker 3: by Zionists. The Zionist agenda was promoted in Scholfield. Bullfield
Speaker 3: was an uneducated man. He never finished any kind of
Speaker 3: formal education. He was intelligent, he was articulate. He knew
Speaker 3: how to talk, he knew how to read, he did
Speaker 3: teach himself and all that kind of thing, but he
Speaker 3: did not know theology in any state man or form.
Speaker 3: The only thing he knew was what he was taught
Speaker 3: by by Darby, and he simply regurgitated Darbyism, which became
Speaker 3: school Filism. During the time of Darby, he was a
Speaker 3: contemporary of the great preacher, maybe the greatest Baptist pressure
Speaker 3: revolve time, Charlesbury, London, Zeland. And whenever he started hearing
Speaker 3: the doctrines of Darby and this split resurrection theory of
Speaker 3: a pre second coming rapture and prid built some of
Speaker 3: the artribulation and all that stuff. Chryls Spurgeon publicly refudiated. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Darby is. And he warned the church if they, you know,
Speaker 3: if they followed this, it was going to lead the disaster.
Speaker 3: But when Skolf came along and published his Bible, that
Speaker 3: sealed the deal. And then the seminaries and the Bible
Speaker 3: colleges started picking it up, and then the passengers started
Speaker 3: picking it up. And today eighty percent of evangelicals buy
Speaker 3: into Christian Zionism. It's a monster.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And you know when you look at this,
Speaker 2: Christ told us that the way we'll know false teachers
Speaker 2: and false doctrine is by their fruit. And I would
Speaker 2: say the fruit has been really, really bad of this.
Speaker 2: And that's one of the things I've told people. I said, look,
Speaker 2: you know, everybody's got their complicated eschatology charts and everything.
Speaker 2: It's like, let's just take a look at what you're
Speaker 2: the result of what this teaching is getting you to do.
Speaker 2: It's getting you to cheer the starvation and murder of children,
Speaker 2: and maybe you should go back and take a second look,
Speaker 2: because your eschatology should not be trumping the obvious principles
Speaker 2: are laid out in the in the Bible.
Speaker 3: For us, the legacy of cis Cofield is the genocide
Speaker 3: in Gossip. Yeah, the slaughter everything that is happening in
Speaker 3: the America. Support for it. And let's say so, let's
Speaker 3: let's be real. I mean, there's a lot of reasons
Speaker 3: why America is supporting this genocide and gossip. They support
Speaker 3: anything as Reel does. And of course we all know
Speaker 3: about the Israel lobby a PAC and you know dozens
Speaker 3: of other lobby groups representing Israel are are literally buying
Speaker 3: the US Congress. Yes, members of both parties. I mean
Speaker 3: the starting that that stranglehold is starting to crack a
Speaker 3: little bit because of the utter grotesqueness of the slaughter
Speaker 3: of the innocence in Gaza.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think it was becoming.
Speaker 2: I think that along with the appearents of Ted kruz
Speaker 2: On with Tucker crass And I've got a lot of
Speaker 2: issues with Tucker Crasson, but he kind of laid that
Speaker 2: out there, just like, what can you explain that? Can
Speaker 2: you defend that? And of course he couldn't yeah.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people saw that and
Speaker 2: start scratching their head and say, wait a minute, maybe
Speaker 2: there's something really wrong here, and there is there is
Speaker 2: something really wrong that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that wasn't That wasn't an interview interview, David, that
Speaker 3: was a snuff film. Uh. I mean, uh, Tucker just
Speaker 3: just slaughtered Uh. Senator cruns. Maybe it look like the
Speaker 3: idiot that he is. But you know, aside from the
Speaker 3: stranglehold of the APAC lobby on Congress in the White House,
Speaker 3: which is massive, I'm not diminishing that at all. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's it's it's ungodly the way our Congress is being
Speaker 3: bought by a foreign government, the Israel lobby. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's it's it's unconstitutional, it's illegal, it's a moral it's
Speaker 3: an American it's it's it's it's everything bad in the world.
Speaker 3: You know, that's happening through APACK and the Israel lobby.
Speaker 2: Remember when Trump said is used to own Congress, and
Speaker 2: he said, rightfully, so.
Speaker 3: They do wres that Congress. But but but the reason
Speaker 3: that that's able to be successful, this is my point,
Speaker 3: is that that couldn't work if the evangelical churches of
Speaker 3: the country were not supporting it.
Speaker 1: I agree, because they're.
Speaker 3: Providing the moral and spiritual cover for this. You know,
Speaker 3: if the great notable preachers of the day, the ones
Speaker 3: who have the giant platforms and are speaking to hundreds
Speaker 3: of thousands of people and have the ear of so
Speaker 3: many folks in our country, if they would stand up
Speaker 3: and preach the truth about Israel, about the New Covenant,
Speaker 3: about you know, what is right and wrong in the
Speaker 3: eyes of God under the New Covenant, and the truth
Speaker 3: about biblical Israel, expose the Christian Zionism for the falsehood
Speaker 3: that it is, and really speak truth to power, they
Speaker 3: would be able to negate the power of the Israel lobby,
Speaker 3: and they have the power to change the course of
Speaker 3: the country. I'm talking about the Pulpits of America, the pastors.
Speaker 3: This has always been the case, I agree, But because
Speaker 3: they're providing cover morally and spiritually for what Israel is doing,
Speaker 3: there's no incentive for anyone to change course.
Speaker 1: You know, for the longest time, I really.
Speaker 3: Put the blame for this at the feet of the Pulpits.
Speaker 1: I agree.
Speaker 2: For the longest time I've looked at these a lot
Speaker 2: of these churches very left wing churches that'll have their
Speaker 2: rainbow celebrations, you know, where it's basically a worship service
Speaker 2: for LGBT. And I look at that and it's like,
Speaker 2: you know that is you know what is the matter
Speaker 2: with these people? And the people on the right, well
Speaker 2: look at that and just shake their head and say,
Speaker 2: you know they have they're not worshiping Christ, They're worshiping
Speaker 2: something else that is against Christ. And yet the conservatives
Speaker 2: do the same thing. We got a lot of churches,
Speaker 2: Cage's Church, who is just basically a worship service for
Speaker 2: a political entity, a foreign government Israel, and I see
Speaker 2: that as being an exact correlation to what's happening with
Speaker 2: the progressive leftist churches and what they're doing with LGBT
Speaker 2: or with CRT or whatever, you know, DEI that type
Speaker 2: of thing. They have their leftist ideology and they worship it.
Speaker 2: And the right is doing that as well. And as
Speaker 2: people are trying to speak against abortion, against child mutilation
Speaker 2: and these other things, we've got people who are looking
Speaker 2: at the vast majority of Christians who are applauding what's
Speaker 2: going on in Israel because of their eschatology, and they're
Speaker 2: shaking their heads and saying, you know, you say that
Speaker 2: you stand for innocent life, but you don't stand for
Speaker 2: innocent life at all, and so it's a reproach. It's
Speaker 2: a hypocrisy that has seen I've seen Caitlin Johnstone, many
Speaker 2: people who are not Christians just shaking their heads and saying,
Speaker 2: you Christians, what's the matter with you? And I look
Speaker 2: at it and I think, what a approach it is
Speaker 2: to the body of Christ, what a approach it is
Speaker 2: to the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for them
Speaker 2: to do this kind of stuff, and everybody sees it.
Speaker 2: I've seen one essay after another from people who opposed
Speaker 2: this war and saying, what's the matter with these Christians?
Speaker 2: It reminds me of what happened in Corinth where Paul
Speaker 2: was saying, you Christians, in this church, you are embracing
Speaker 2: sexual practices that even the Pagans don't embrace. And that's
Speaker 2: basically what I see happening here. They've got a moral
Speaker 2: sense of what a justified war is that Christians have
Speaker 2: surrendered because of their eschatology or whatever reasons.
Speaker 3: No, you're exactly right. I have several videos that are
Speaker 3: making the grounds on social media. A lot of people
Speaker 3: have picked up these videos and are reposting them, and
Speaker 3: some of them are reaching hundreds of thousands and even
Speaker 3: millions of people. And I'm making that very point. I'm
Speaker 3: saying that what's happening in evangelicalism today is that the
Speaker 3: pastors who are promoting Christian Zionism and their unreserved sport
Speaker 3: for this godless state of Israel is driving people away
Speaker 3: from the Gospel. Absolutely, we're supposed to be preaching the gospel,
Speaker 3: reaching people for Christ with the gospel, showing people the
Speaker 3: love of Christ, showing people the grace of God, showing
Speaker 3: people that what Jesus did on the cross, you know,
Speaker 3: has brought us together as wanting in one body in
Speaker 3: Christ is neither juno gentle or body free. We're all
Speaker 3: want in Christ. Everyone is equal at the Cross. And
Speaker 3: yet the doctrine of Christian Zionism is separating people into
Speaker 3: cast systems, and it's separating people away from the Gospel
Speaker 3: of Christ. And what you're saying is it's making people
Speaker 3: sick to their stomachs when they see the way that
Speaker 3: Christians Ey's pastors are supporting the awful, awful atrocities that
Speaker 3: are going on every minute of the day over there,
Speaker 3: and they're seeing the videos of it now on social media,
Speaker 3: when we're seeing it every day in front of our
Speaker 3: very eyes live time, you know, and we are seeing it,
Speaker 3: and they're looking at the churches and they're hearing what
Speaker 3: they're saying, and they're saying to themselves the best Christianity,
Speaker 3: I don't want it. And a statistical fact that there
Speaker 3: are more people leaving Evanozelical churches today than any time
Speaker 3: in our nation's history. And that started in the year
Speaker 3: two thousand with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when
Speaker 3: when Bush launched all that. It started then, but now
Speaker 3: then it's it's come to a tsunami. Yes, it's a
Speaker 3: tsunami of people that are leaving churches and it's driving
Speaker 3: people away from the Gospel. So it's more here at
Speaker 3: stake than just that's right, the secular, more here than
Speaker 3: just the political.
Speaker 1: And it's not just.
Speaker 3: It's also impacting the spiritual I agree. IBr and fabric
Speaker 3: of America.
Speaker 1: I agree.
Speaker 2: And it's not just the people on the outside. This
Speaker 2: is something that's been a problem within the church as well.
Speaker 2: People become so attached to the rapture and the prophecies
Speaker 2: and all the rest of the stuff that they'll break
Speaker 2: fellowship with you as a Christian if you disagree with
Speaker 2: them on this, and it's become the most important thing
Speaker 2: to them, and you have to say, but wait a minute.
Speaker 2: The most important thing is the Lord Jesus Christ. He said,
Speaker 2: you search the scriptures, you think you have eternal life
Speaker 2: in them, but they testify of me. That should be
Speaker 2: your hermeneutic. That should be the view that you approach
Speaker 2: the text with. What does this tell me about Christ?
Speaker 2: And especially even revelation. It's the revelation of the Lord
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. It's not you know, what's going to happen
Speaker 2: to Israel.
Speaker 1: But that's the way it's read.
Speaker 2: You know, it's amazing for me, but it's a real problem.
Speaker 2: That's why i'd like to I'm gonna have to get
Speaker 2: your book, the incredible Schofield and his book, and that's
Speaker 2: available at your websites.
Speaker 1: And I know that you had to go.
Speaker 2: I think we've gone over the amount of time that
Speaker 2: you'd allotted here, so I'll wrap this up pretty quickly again.
Speaker 2: People can find Libertyfellowship mt dot com. That's where you
Speaker 2: can find the book. That's where you can find Pastor
Speaker 2: Baldwin and also on Chuck Baldwinlive dot com. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much for joining us. Always interesting and important to
Speaker 2: talk to you. Thank you so much, sir, Thank you
Speaker 2: David very much.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Well, that's it for today's show. Thank you for joining us,
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Speaker 1: We may have a good day.
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