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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

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Speaker 2: Ben Stover, individual therapist.

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Speaker 1: Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're all licensed clinical

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professional counselors also known as therapists who practice out of Chicago.

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Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast

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is purely fronted him and purposes and to fulfill our

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love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.

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Speaker 2: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider. I've lost my hand, I

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lost my bride. Johnny has his hand, Johnny has his bride.

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You want me to take my heartbreak and put it

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away and forget what am I forrid monumental justice. That's

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how it opens. That's how we are talking about Moonstruck today,

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which is one of my favorite movies, and we will

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be discussing identity crises and relationships. The movie our share

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is a widowed Italian American woman who falls in love

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with her fiance's hot temper to strange younger brother played

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by Nicholas Cage.

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Speaker 2: I want you to just say that back to yourself

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four times.

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Speaker 1: What hot tempered Italian brother?

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Speaker 2: Hot tempered?

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Speaker 1: It's like my manifest hot tempered to strange younger brother

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played by Nicholas Cage.

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Speaker 2: It's like she's riding my manifest hot tempered. And how

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many times have we seen this situation in our offices?

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Speaker 1: Go someone who is dating the brother of the fance

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every other week at least. I'm filthy with Loretto's So

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where we're going to start where First we're going to

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talk about Cosmo and Rose. Cosmo is SHA's dad and

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Rose is her mom, in case you don't know the

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names by heart like I do. So a part of

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the reason why we're talking about them as a couple

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is because there's a lot of different things that are

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impacting their relationship but also their identities as people. And

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so a part of Cosmo's deal is that he is

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afraid of dying and he is taking that out by

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stepping out on his wife. Stepping out what an old

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school arm. I love that not the idea the.

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Speaker 2: Phrase, and also locking down is spending and being generally

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miserly and different than he has been his whole life. Yes,

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which we only know through the context of his wife. Oh, okay,

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her dialogue.

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Speaker 1: Your rich is Roosevelt, that's what she says.

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Speaker 2: Your father was never cheap. He got cheap when he

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got old. He's trying to take the money with him.

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Speaker 1: He thinks he thinks if he takes his money with him,

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he will die.

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Speaker 2: Really to spend his money, he won't die. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And how miserly he's being about Loretta getting married again, Yes,

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and he refusing to pay for it, even though he

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didn't pay for anything before when she got married, because

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she got married at the courthouse. So we're gonna start

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with Cosmo and Rose because, like you said, Cosmo is

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How old do you think Cosmo is? It's hard to

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tell anybody's age in this movie. Fifty seven that cannot

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be sixty five, shares character. Loretta is thirty eight. Yeah,

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so at least probably in his sixties, yeah, early sixties.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, Yeah, maybe in his sixties.

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Speaker 1: My guess is they were twenty when they had Loretta,

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and she's the only child, right, No, she has she

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has a brother who they had. Remember the mother's side.

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Speaker 2: That's right, she's the only daughter.

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Speaker 1: She's the only daughter. She has a son that she

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had later in life. O. Because she says, I had

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your brother after I was thirty seven. Oh okay, thirty eight.

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Speaker 2: Right, and he's already moved out and doing his thing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, he got married and he has three kids.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, Hannah is gonna be our Moonstruck history orient

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on this episode. Thank you very much. Well, moving back

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to front, she's like a little Wikipedia about this movie, yes,

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which I appreciate. Yes. So, Cosmo is having probably the

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most stereotypical midlife crisis, which we're calling existential our identity crisis.

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What we mean by stereotypical is that he is a

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man in his as we've now established, late fifties, early sixties,

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who is not dealing with entering into the sunset era

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of his life, the twilight of his life, like you guys.

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We're saying he is getting a lot more miserly. He's

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pinching pennies where he wouldn't. I don't know if you'll

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just take anything from the whole plumbing scene if that

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means anything about how he's changed, really trying to get

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money out of these other people, but he is doing

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that thing where he starts to have an affair. We

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don't really know anything about if that's his first affair,

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his only affair, how long the affair has been going on.

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They're pretty casual in a way that makes me feel

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like they've been together for a bit. Wait, him and Mona,

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I don't feel like they've been together for very long.

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So we're starting to with Cosmo and Rose as Cosmo

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is doing the most stereotypical version of an identity crisis,

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a midlife crisis, though it is later on in his

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life in that he is cheating, he's having a full

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blown affair with a lady named Mona.

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Speaker 2: And he's also simultaneously preparing to pay for the wedding

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of his daughter. I think the point of that scene

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you mentioned earlier where he as a successful plumber, he's

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very clearly showing these people that in their apartment they

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have shit, probably lead pipes. Quite typically, they will walk

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people through their choices, unless he's always like this at business,

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where he's going like, look, I only work with copper pipe.

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That's it, because everything else sucks and is dangerous. I'm

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not doing it, but I feel like The point of

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that scene was probably for them to show he is

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going to go ahead and skip the discussion the massage

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of the client to talk them into.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like that's what kind of salesman he

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always was. I think so, yeah, but I could see

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why why like that does make sense too, like why

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he just automatically upscaled them instead of what you said, right.

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Speaker 2: Because I feel like the writers included that for a reason,

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and it could have been for one of two wanted

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to show he was always like that and his wife

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was calling him on a shit that you already have

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a lot of money and we're proving it that this

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is how you have it, yeah, or the other one

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is showing that he's accepting he's going to pay for

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his daughter's saying he's just being a little bit about

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it because he's having an existential crisis. I didn't write it,

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so I don't know, but I feel like that point

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was included for or that scene was included for a

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reason to show something.

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Speaker 1: Well, then he tells his Mona about it. It was

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his way to like, yeah, br it's his brag story

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to Mona, like the woman wanted to be cheap, the

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man who would have what men always know.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm, yes, obviously. However, he's also married to a woman

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who is very much not that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's married to a very sensible, grounded, smart woman. Yes,

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who is clock his tea, as the kids would say,

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pretty swiftly.

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Speaker 2: I mean as someone who's a husband to an Italian

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wife who is very smart and very successful in quite

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a bit like Rose. I don't think you will find

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a great many people of that culture who are not

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similarly in charge of their household. You know, these men

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who are like men are that's what men sound like us.

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That's what men sound like who are dumb. But he knows,

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no doubt, he knows who he married. They've been married

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for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Fifty two years, he knows. Oh well, then if they've

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been married for two years and they can't be in

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their late fifties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good point. They got to be pushing seventy. They

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gotta be, assuming they would have got married to eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, at least yeah, seventy. Well, we have cracked

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the case, y'all. They are in their seventies to have

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an affair in your seventies. But we are very clearly

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seeing with Cosmo that he is well one. He seems

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very moody, but that's hard to tell if that's him

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all the time time thing because it cracked me up

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because he was talking about what a cry baby Johnny

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was bobing. Most dramatic person ever. But he seems very

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irritated all the time, like he's got like a more

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of like a surly put out disposition, and he's always

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talking about death and all that kind of stuff. He's

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definitely at the time in his life where that is

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ever present on his mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's he's in his seventies, since you know our

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Wickahanna over here knows.

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Speaker 1: And how old is his dad nineties probably nineties, probably nineties,

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which he looks like he well he And it makes

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sense too for him because we see him what I

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think is embracing old age and like he's spending time

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with the people who are alive. He's going to the

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to the cemetery with his buddies, and it seems like

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he has a community of people that he's with, and

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I feel like Cosmo doesn't really seem to have that.

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I don't know if we're just not singing that because

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he's being such a prey or not I mean.

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Speaker 2: I think yet again, this is written like a classic Yeah,

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Italian or Greek comedy play. Yeah, we're seeing characters that

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are foils of each other. Yeah, all over the place.

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Not only is the dad hanging out with his buddies

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in a cemetery, he is bringing his five dogs to

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piss on the grapes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: If that doesn't show fuck you death, that's a fair

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point as the symbolism, like fuck this place. It's not

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a place of reverence. It's a place you go when

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you're warm food. We're gonna live. These dogs are alive.

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I'm alive. I don't need to fear this place. He's

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letting his dogs piss on it.

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Speaker 1: They do destroy that cemetery plot that they're standing by

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these dogs. But I will say Cosmo seems to be

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doing that thing that sometimes people will do later in life,

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where they're sort of doing an inventory of their life.

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I don't know, like what has my life meant? You know?

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Like there's the classic line at the end, what does

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he say about his life? It's built on nothing horrible

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thing to say, But he is someone that seems to

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be really judging the life that he's lived and not

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happy with what he's seeing, because think about also the

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dinner scene where Raymond Rose's brothers trying to tell that

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really cute story about the moon, a very romantic, sweet

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story that should increase morale, and it seems to just

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pissed Cosmo off. Yeah, And I don't know if that's

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him doing this inventory of his life. I don't know

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if he does want to be reminded of the past,

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or if he's like, that story is stupid, because my

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life is stupid. I don't know, Like, what do you

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guys think about if it's reminding him of being in

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love with Rose and feeling really close to her and

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like feeling ashamed. That was when he was before they

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were engaged. I think teenagers probably, Yeah, yeah, that was

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when they were really young. So maybe he doesn't want

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to be reminded of that.

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Speaker 2: I think he doesn't want to be reminded of it

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because there's a war of parts happening inside his head,

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and his attached part that's saying that is our wife

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and we love her is globbing onto it, and his

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shame and anger parts are grabbing hold of that and

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going and that's how we got here, you stupid asshole,

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And we're angry and we don't want to think about

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it or talk about that, And is a shame part

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is going and you have tickets to the opera with

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your mistress and you don't deserve to think about that moment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because in that moment, that story, what it's doing

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is telling a story of what a romantic, sweet person

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Cosmo is. Yes, and he can't relate to that right

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now because of what he knows he's doing. And simultaneously,

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I assume why he's doing something like have an affair

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is because he's trying to recapture that feeling that he

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had when he was young.

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Speaker 2: Which he doesn't have with Rose right now and is

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resentful of. However, it's quite clear that he doesn't have

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it right now because he's viewpoint on things is so

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distorted by his own sadness and feeling unfulfilled, even though

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he has everything he ever wanted and needed in more

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than other people, which yet again we see a foil

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to him with the professor character was his name, Perry,

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Parry's a foil to him. Perry has prestige and success.

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He's a professor at NYU.

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Speaker 1: And he's getting to live that bachelor esque life where

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he's just splanking a carousel of nineteen year olds.

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Speaker 2: Well, living in a one bedroom apartment. Yeah, and seeing

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that person who has the prestige that a nineteen year

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old would see, who is able to acknowledge the life

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of a professor is quite often not as glamorous as

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a nineteen year old may think it may be. Yet

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this person's in charge of your life. But they go

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home to live in a one bedroom apartment because they

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don't make any money, whereas the plumber's got a whole house,

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the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a mansion. Yeah. Well, it's a very

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like grass is Green or bullshit, because both Perry and

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Cosmo aren't happy internally. They're doing that thing that we

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all do to a certain extent, which is, oh, that

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person over there has it all figured out. Us is

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trying to do the thing that Perry's doing, which is

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like that free and easy, sexy bachelor life, whereas ironically

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Perry is idealizing the big old house and trying to

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like fuck his wife.

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Speaker 2: Yep, because he doesn't have the life he thought he

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would either. And that's what Ericson was talking about. What

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you're describing is the central conflict of this stage of development,

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which is ego integrity versus despair, and you either arrive

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at a place where you're comfortable with your life and

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what you've achieved and are able to do things that

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make you continue to feel like you, or and adapt

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with the change like the grandfather did. He is adapted

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to the change the phase of life that he's in.

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He knows what's his business and what isn't. He doesn't

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say shit about seeing Rose with Perry. He doesn't say

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a goddamn thing. The whole family. Everybody's airing their shit,

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and he's like, pay for your daughter's wedding. Yeah, that's

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the big confrontation he has to his son, pay for

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your only daughter's wedding. He could have busted Rose out

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right then and there, and he is like, that's not important.

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Speaker 1: Well, so he seems thoughtful overall, even with the pay

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for your daughter's wedding. He seeks out the counsel of

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his friends. Yes, he does too, as a sounding board

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to figure out should I be bothered by this and

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should I say something to him? So, even though we

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see very little of the paternal grandfather, he's seems like

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a very thoughtful person.

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Speaker 2: Yes, he does. He does, and he's but he's accepting

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what is within my value system, what makes me feel

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like me? Who do I consult about this? My friends

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who are of my culture and are in the same

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place as me, So these are the people we should

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be consulting. He maintains within that and is seeing people

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not do so and look lost. So he's going back

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to what is within his ego integrity, where he's seeing

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his son on the opposite side of that in despair.

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Ye not made peace with aging. He has not made

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peace with accepting that. By the time we're in our seventies,

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we should start being able to see the complicated side

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of life. We should start understanding that things are rarely

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black and white, almost never are they black and white,

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and shit happens. Make the choice that's right for you,

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for your family, do the thing that keeps you safe

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and happy. Other stuff, let it go well.

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Speaker 1: I think. Also really good comparison to him is his

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brother in law, Raymond, and how Raymond is someone who's

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I'm assuming about the same age because it's Rose's brother, yep,

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a little younger, and he seems to be getting at

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a satisfactory from the life he's actually living. We see

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him have his own little moment by the end of

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the movie where he's very excited and he's feeling young

305
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and his wife's even saying, you look like you're twenty

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five again in the moonlight, and they get a little

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saucy with each other, which is very cute, Which is

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very cute, and I think he's a great example of

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someone who is looking for the pleasure and the joy

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within the life he's living with the person that he's

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with instead of stepping out to find those things. And

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so he's a good j exposition of like he's not

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doing anything he didn't get, like he'd even the lottery,

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Like there isn't anything that changed in Raymond's life other

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than he got kind of like the romance in him

316
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the moon if you will, and he's like appreciating the

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life that's in front of him, yep, and seeing the

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young person and his wife that he fell in love with,

319
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whereas Cosmo is stuck. Cosmo is unhappy, and he's doing

320
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that thing people do sometimes when they're unhappy, which is

321
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blame everything. But besides looking internally.

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Speaker 2: Where they struggle with that ego integrity versus despare conflict.

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Is that's part of it, right, is they look everywhere

324
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but themselves. But the thing that needs to change is them.

325
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They have to accept that you're different. Now, you're older.

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Now everything is different. Now you didn't get everything you wanted,

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but you got a lot.

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Speaker 1: I mean they're living pretty fucking nice. Yeah, I'd be

329
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curious to ask Cosmo, like, what what are you still

330
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looking for?

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Speaker 2: I got a big ass house in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: They soon have generational well, they're very set.

333
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Speaker 2: I don't know about generational well.

334
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Speaker 1: I don't know about generational as much as it does

335
00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:29,839
seem like everybody works for everybody has their own small business,

336
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is what it really seems like, right, Like Raymond and

337
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Rita have the store, and he is a plumber and

338
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Loretta is an accountant, and they're all kind of working

339
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within each other's businesses.

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Speaker 2: It seems like, yeah, Loretta is their bookiep. This is

341
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recognizing you're seeing people and different sides of this and

342
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how they get into these midlife and late life existential crises,

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points when they fail, these Ericsonian stages. And at this

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point in time as opposed to now, the ages are

345
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probably about right in their sixties plus you start entering

346
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this ego integrity versus despairs, you get to the point

347
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that you realize life is winding down. You don't have

348
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much else you can accomplish because now you're thinking about

349
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the end of your life, and that starts to either

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scare you or you're good with it, And it's going

351
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to scare you at some point until you get good

352
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with it of realizing what you did do and that

353
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it was enough.

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Speaker 1: Which is the existential you know, like the idea of like, ugh,

355
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death is coming for me?

356
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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Existential literally refers to of existence, yes, and

357
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anything that threatens that existence produces fear.

358
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

359
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Speaker 2: Time is the guaranteed thing that will end your existence.

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Speaker 1: And So what I like about this movie in terms

361
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,799
of it just being like a like a play, right,

362
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like an examination of the human condition, if you will,

363
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is that that is like the question that keeps coming in, right,

364
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is why to mention women? Is what Rose keeps asking

365
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because Rose is observing Cosmo acting the way he is,

366
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and she's trying to figure it out but in a

367
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very sensible way where she's asking other men what the fuck?

368
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Basically it comes down to what we're talking about, which

369
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is that they feared death, this idea of like chasing women.

370
00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:18,799
I don't know if it's just they think if they

371
00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:21,720
get that vava voom back in some way, that they'll

372
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live forever, or will it just distract from the death

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that's coming for us all?

374
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Speaker 2: I mean, you know what the answer to that is,

375
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they want to live while they're alive because they recognize

376
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that the time left to do it is expiring, and

377
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they're refusing to face the fact that that time in

378
00:19:38,319 --> 00:19:40,960
your life is over. So they are distracted seeking the

379
00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:44,079
distraction from it because they haven't accepted that you already

380
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did that. Now you're on this phase of life where

381
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you just you sit and appreciate all that you made.

382
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Speaker 1: And I think the problem with someone like Perry and

383
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,319
why they have also their own really hard existential crisis,

384
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,599
is that he has kind of been on a hamster wheel.

385
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He's trying to stay at this age and trying to

386
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,279
go back to a certain age by like dating the

387
00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:06,400
same kind of girl, going to the same restaurant, having

388
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,440
the same fight, has the same response. What does he say?

389
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,960
He says, like, get rid of the evidence. Yep, get

390
00:20:12,039 --> 00:20:14,559
rid of all evidence of her. He says that both

391
00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:17,759
times right, yep, yep, Like he is on a hamster

392
00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:20,119
wheel of his own making, and he's like, why am

393
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,599
I not going anywhere? Why don't I feel any better?

394
00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:24,759
Where I do feel bad for him is that when

395
00:20:24,759 --> 00:20:28,440
he's talking to Rose and he's saying why he he's

396
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,279
pursuing these girls that make him look ridiculous because that's

397
00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:34,640
what he looks like. He doesn't look cool and sexy. No,

398
00:20:34,799 --> 00:20:37,960
sitting across from these girls. Definitely, he looks like a

399
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,640
dumb ass. He looks like their father. Yeah. And also

400
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,920
to have a fight with such a young person publicly, yeah,

401
00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:46,000
is so embarrassing.

402
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,200
Speaker 2: And to have and imature Both mother and daughter say

403
00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:53,599
exactly the same thing about it was to communicate the

404
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,240
universality of that opinion of women seeing how sad of

405
00:20:59,279 --> 00:21:00,920
an existence this man is living.

406
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he can't see outside his own shit because,

407
00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:05,920
like I said, the conversation is with Rose, when she

408
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,920
asks what he likes about these women, he does that

409
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,920
thing that sometimes people do, unfortunately, where instead of describing

410
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,640
something about the person, their personality, character about them, their values,

411
00:21:17,079 --> 00:21:20,640
instead they give themselves away. They tell themselves by only

412
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,240
describing how that person either makes them feel or what

413
00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:26,119
they do for them. Yep, and he's saying it with

414
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,559
no awareness zero of how he sounds.

415
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed, which is allowing Rose to further I guess

416
00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:35,920
she's trying to create empathy.

417
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 1: Rose, He's trying to have a conversation with him, like

418
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,359
she's really trying to like get in there, almost anthropologically

419
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,559
like yeah, right, I agree, and he is just he

420
00:21:46,599 --> 00:21:49,079
doesn't have enough awareness to give her an answer that

421
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:49,599
makes sense.

422
00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 2: I think he gives her the answer she needed.

423
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: Yes from Perry.

424
00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:55,799
Speaker 2: Rose gets the answer from Perry she needed and was

425
00:21:55,799 --> 00:21:59,400
looking for. Parry does not understand what question he was

426
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,079
being asked.

427
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: Well, he obviously doesn't understand anything because at the end

428
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,279
of the walk home he makes a move on her

429
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,519
and he has no awareness of how he looks to her. No,

430
00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:13,039
which is like the more the more she knows about you,

431
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,039
the more you itck her out. Yeah.

432
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 2: Yes, you didn't have a chance at any point, No, never,

433
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:25,160
you were science yes, yes, picking your brain yes. Which

434
00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:28,839
the hilarious part of that is him, being a communications professor,

435
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,079
absolutely cannot clode and he can't.

436
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: Have not have fights that too.

437
00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 2: Well, he also can't detect that nothing in this communication

438
00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:42,799
he's having with her, is in any way sexual, she's

439
00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:44,119
at all studying you?

440
00:22:44,839 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: Yes, Well, he's that kind of guy that if you're

441
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,039
at all friendly to him, he thinks you're like hitting

442
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,359
on him or you're into him. He doesn't understand that

443
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,119
her like being kind and like smiling and inquisitive is

444
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,880
just her treating him like a person. Yes, not wanting to,

445
00:23:00,599 --> 00:23:03,039
but because it's that very like if you are a hammer,

446
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,279
so everything is a nail. He has a very small

447
00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:09,119
window of how he views things that he's putting through

448
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,599
that view, and so he it seems like he only

449
00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:15,079
looks at women in a specific way, Yes, especially young women,

450
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,000
because of his own ego stuff like. I think he

451
00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:19,400
could get there, but it'd have to do a lot

452
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,680
of work on himself. That he's not young either. Yes,

453
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,039
I mean he's certainly looking at women. I think his

454
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,680
behavior in a certain way. I think his behavior towards

455
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,000
her shows it's not just the young ones, but the

456
00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:30,480
young ones.

457
00:23:30,519 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 2: Reinforces the point that he's he's searching for a time

458
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,279
that is lost. He's searching for a version and a feeling.

459
00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:38,240
It's not even about them.

460
00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: No, it's I mean he admits that without realizing he's

461
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:41,839
admitting it.

462
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is sad for him really, because he's

463
00:23:45,839 --> 00:23:49,440
failing ego integrity versus the spirit. This movie is showing

464
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,359
the entire plot of Citizen Kane over and over and

465
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,200
over and over again that no matter what people have

466
00:23:56,519 --> 00:24:01,000
or haven't squared with the thing that they needed most,

467
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,240
they're still going to want that, and their behavior, no

468
00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:05,240
matter what they have, is going to drive them towards that.

469
00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:08,799
And Citizen Kane, he achieved everything, but he still wanted

470
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,599
the feeling he got from riding his sled down a

471
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,440
hill as a kid, and that was the thing that

472
00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:15,640
was lost, and that's the thing he wants on his deathbed.

473
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,880
Perry wants to feel excited about what he's doing again,

474
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:21,559
and he feels like he's in a loop. But he

475
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:23,599
has to stay in that loop to stay where he is,

476
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,640
and he can't accept that this is what you bought

477
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,680
with your career, and you have to accept that baseline

478
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,519
and then grow challenge yourself from here or you will

479
00:24:34,519 --> 00:24:39,000
get stuck. But he doesn't. He stays stuck. Yeah, and

480
00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:42,000
then therefore the thing he most wanted was to grow

481
00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:45,160
his life and he didn't. You know that, Cosmo is

482
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,880
in a similar spot. He just has different things that

483
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,799
he may have wanted, but he seems like there's something

484
00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:55,680
he didn't get from life that now he's trying to

485
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,440
find again, or he feel like he's lost touch with

486
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,440
and he doesn't see a way to get that need

487
00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:03,279
meant in conventional ways, so he starts opening up pathways

488
00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:06,799
to behavior that are outside of what's socially acceptable to

489
00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:10,119
get there. That's what people do. If you are hungry

490
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,519
and you can't get food from working, what are you

491
00:25:12,559 --> 00:25:13,079
going to do?

492
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: Steal?

493
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: That's what you're gonna do. You're gonna you're gonna bag,

494
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,359
You're gonna steal, You're gonna cheat because you.

495
00:25:17,319 --> 00:25:19,039
Speaker 1: Have to eat well. And how I talk about this,

496
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,759
and I'm sure, Hannah, I've heard me say this more

497
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:23,440
than once. Perry is someone that has a hole in them.

498
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:24,920
What I mean by that is he's trying to fill

499
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,240
up something. He's trying to fill himself up. And Cosmo's

500
00:25:28,279 --> 00:25:29,079
doing that right now too.

501
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:29,559
Speaker 2: Yep.

502
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: When I think of this, I think of like an

503
00:25:31,039 --> 00:25:34,480
actual like a space in them. That's why you see,

504
00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:37,640
like you're just saying, like these people that have so

505
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,240
much money and they get all these accolades, and they

506
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,680
make these status they keep going up the ladder, if

507
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,960
you will, in different ways, and yet it's not enough

508
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,519
because there's something internal that they're trying to outsource. If

509
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:52,279
you're listening and you find yourself in one of these

510
00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:55,119
pickles where you're like, oh, I finally got that much

511
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,440
money and I still feel empty or something's missing. If

512
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,160
I got this relationship right, losses, amount of weight or

513
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,759
something that is that you're trying to outsource something that

514
00:26:04,799 --> 00:26:07,519
has to come from within. It's what these two guys

515
00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:10,240
we've talked about so far. That's what they're doing where

516
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,839
it seems like Raymond he doesn't have that he's getting

517
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,359
what he needs from the life that he's in.

518
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,559
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, Raymond is the healthy example. Yeah, for sure,

519
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,640
he is appreciating what he has. He is appreciating him

520
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,279
and his wife both. They are both appreciating that we

521
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,200
are not twenty five anymore. But I still see it

522
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:30,480
in you.

523
00:26:31,599 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we can be playful and we can have

524
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:36,920
fun and we can be silly exactly, and our younger

525
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,599
selves don't die unless we kill them ourselves.

526
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,319
Speaker 2: Correct, we just have to make peace with They can't

527
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:48,000
be on all the time. Anymore because life has grown

528
00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:51,440
beyond that, and people that get stuck in that try

529
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,440
to force themselves into situations that are no longer appropriate

530
00:26:55,519 --> 00:26:58,880
for them and fail to recognize the great cost that

531
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,680
they're putting on themselves and go. Don't know if anybody

532
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,960
saw the wrestler, Nope, it was good.

533
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: It look like a bummer.

534
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 2: Yep, it is a bummer. Yeah, but it's this.

535
00:27:09,319 --> 00:27:10,559
Speaker 1: Oh that's what I assumed.

536
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ricky the Ram is a guy that Mickey Rourke

537
00:27:14,519 --> 00:27:17,079
is playing, and he's a wrestler that's got a heart

538
00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:19,160
condition and they are telling him like, you were going

539
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,680
to die if you don't stop wrestling, but he keeps

540
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,799
wrestling and taking three guesses of what happens at the

541
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,319
end he dies, and where is he when he's when

542
00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:33,960
he dies, Yeah, he's climbing the top, climb the top rope,

543
00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:36,400
jumping off.

544
00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: You know I heard that on that movie. Mickey Worke

545
00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:43,440
kept wanting his character to wear sunglasses, and it got

546
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,960
to the point that the director, Darren Aroski Ernofsky would

547
00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:50,279
have him padded down before every scene because he was

548
00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:54,160
always sneaking sunglasses into his clothes and pulling them out

549
00:27:54,279 --> 00:27:57,000
mid scene. And sucking up the take, and so he

550
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,000
would still sometimes be able to successfully sneak sunglasses into

551
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:02,440
a scene.

552
00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that character is a not so subtle Yeah. The

553
00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:09,359
ridiculousness of that character. He's not letting go of the

554
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,279
fact that you're aging and you have to stop, and

555
00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:15,440
you look ridiculous and you're gonna die. You can have

556
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,400
a happy life if you stop doing this to your heart,

557
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:18,960
and he can't.

558
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,599
Speaker 1: Because what's interesting too about the Cosmo Perry comparison, if

559
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,119
you will, is that Perry's looking like he says, right,

560
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,640
I'm looking for the feeling I get when these girls

561
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,079
look at me like I'm brand new. Right. Yeah, that's

562
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:37,119
also why people will cheat, right, because Cosmo finding Mona,

563
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,519
like that story about the Plumber, is him having someone

564
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:43,200
look at him with bright eyes, looking at him like

565
00:28:43,279 --> 00:28:46,240
he's brand new, like he's shiny. And what's interesting though,

566
00:28:46,319 --> 00:28:48,480
is he's still doing stuff that he could be doing

567
00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:51,000
with Rose, Like when he's taking Mona to the opera,

568
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,880
Rose is just going to the restaurant by yourself. Yeah,

569
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,839
And so it's that interesting thing where he's not married

570
00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:00,400
to someone that doesn't want to do the kind of

571
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,960
things with him because Rose is getting out of the house.

572
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,720
But it's not about that. It's about what he gets

573
00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:07,960
from Mona with the novelty piece.

574
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,559
Speaker 2: Yes, well, don't forget the whole quote that Perry gave

575
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,400
because it wasn't just about how he looked in their eyes.

576
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,200
That was part of it, but the other part went deeper,

577
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:21,279
much deeper than that. It wasn't even about them, which

578
00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:23,839
is where it becomes the saddest parties. He was saying

579
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,920
it made him miss when he was younger and felt

580
00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:31,759
excited about his life and his career. The way the

581
00:29:31,759 --> 00:29:35,000
women look at him makes him feel like how he

582
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,039
was then.

583
00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: That's what I mean. Like, So him being able to

584
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,759
recount these stories to Mona because they're new to her, Yeah,

585
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,279
makes Cosmo feel that young feeling, which is why he's

586
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,519
choosing to do these activities with her when he could

587
00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:50,200
very easily do them with the wife that he has.

588
00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: But his wife knows his stories and isn't impressed when he, Yeah,

589
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,960
sells somebody something above what they need or can afford.

590
00:29:57,559 --> 00:29:59,559
Speaker 1: What do you think about when she confronts him at

591
00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:02,640
the table and everybody is there. I think it's so interesting.

592
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,559
The family is so close and is together all the time,

593
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,519
and it's so interesting that she brings it up in

594
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:12,640
that setting but also says so little.

595
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,119
Speaker 2: I think we should take a break here before we

596
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,119
talk about that, and then we will answer that. So

597
00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:20,160
you're talking about in your question, what do we think

598
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,960
about Rose confronting Cosmo in front of the whole family,

599
00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:29,160
plus this new guy.

600
00:30:28,359 --> 00:30:31,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, which nobody knows anything about, Ronnie.

601
00:30:31,359 --> 00:30:36,359
Speaker 2: Who just is there with his charisma the size of Manhattan. Yeah,

602
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,079
wearing that glove with no explanation, but so traumatic. I think,

603
00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:43,240
so thing one. This is the culture. My wife will

604
00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:47,519
routinely tell stories about how her grandparents would quite often

605
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,480
just show up, just like the brother and sister did.

606
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,599
They just show up at the house. For contexts for listeners,

607
00:30:54,599 --> 00:30:57,599
my wife's father is from Italy, from Italy, not born

608
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,119
in Italy and immigrated, so her grandpa parents also from Italy,

609
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,519
lived in Italy until nineteen fifty, and they would just

610
00:31:05,839 --> 00:31:10,880
show up, which my mother in law hated, hated because

611
00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:15,359
that is not her culture. And his very large Italian family,

612
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,480
people just drop in on each other and just show

613
00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:19,720
up and be in each other's business and be around.

614
00:31:20,279 --> 00:31:24,079
So this is kind of the culture, just being close

615
00:31:24,119 --> 00:31:26,279
as opposed to some of the other cultures in the

616
00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:30,160
americanism that has moved away from collective family culture and

617
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,039
into individualism, and certainly by the eighties, you'd be seeing

618
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,519
the clash of this that exploded in the nineties and

619
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:39,880
two thousand starting because the different generations are going, why

620
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,799
the fuck are you in my life like this? Whereas

621
00:31:43,039 --> 00:31:44,599
as you're seeing in this family they just kind of

622
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,039
accept it. It's just kind of the way it is.

623
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,839
So in my clients that are Italian from and some

624
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,640
of them from New York would look at this and

625
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,000
they would say, yep, is just way it is. So

626
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,400
to us in twenty twenty five, being of the millennial generation,

627
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,680
we look at this and go, the fuck is going

628
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,640
on here? But remembering that this is forty years ago

629
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,799
with people there sure are already forty, meaning they were

630
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:13,839
born in the forties. This looks weird to us, but

631
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,400
it wouldn't be weird to them. But the therapist of

632
00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:20,240
millennial generation to me is going no, no, no, no, no, no,

633
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,480
what are you doing? But they don't seem perturbed at all.

634
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: When we watched this. We watched that scene in my

635
00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:32,920
in a family therapy class, and my professor talked about

636
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,839
how Rose is the matriarch of the family and how

637
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,880
a part of the reason and so it's kind of

638
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:41,880
going in with what you're saying, but that she's the

639
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,720
matriarch of the family and that that's why A part

640
00:32:44,759 --> 00:32:46,680
of why she brings that up in that moment was

641
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,119
also because she is the head of the family and

642
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,279
she has to address it somehow, like she's gonna take

643
00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:51,799
charge of it.

644
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

645
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,119
Speaker 1: Well, also like the setting of it is she's at

646
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,880
the head, yes the table, and she's like commanding. I

647
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:04,039
also wonder if it's because, well, Loretta already knows. I

648
00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:06,319
feel like Loretta would be the one that you'd most

649
00:33:06,359 --> 00:33:10,200
want to protect in that situation, blowing her dad's spot

650
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:12,960
up in front of her. Yeah, but she already told Loretta,

651
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,400
and I think that's part of it. I also wonder

652
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,599
if it's just like what you were saying, Ben, I

653
00:33:18,599 --> 00:33:20,599
think there's a lot of just like openness. But also

654
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,039
when Johnny wants to talk to Loretta in the same

655
00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:25,279
scene by herself and she says, I want my family

656
00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:27,279
around me. So I don't know if there's also that

657
00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:30,640
idea of everything we do together affects each other. In

658
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,880
a more like symbiotic way. And so this is yeah,

659
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,440
like kind of what you're saying too, Hanna of like

660
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,960
it's approaching the system, the whole system. You've got to

661
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,440
get your shit together. What are you doing I'm making

662
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,200
It's almost like she's making like a queen, like she's

663
00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:50,240
making a ruling. Yeah, and she wants witnesses.

664
00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:51,119
Speaker 2: Yeah.

665
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: And also I think it keeps him on best behavior

666
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:54,839
in a way that maybe he wouldn't be if it

667
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,880
was just the two of them. Ye, Like, maybe he

668
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,960
would bullshit, maybe he would get upset. And because it's

669
00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:02,079
happening in a way where he wants to save face,

670
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,200
Kim doing it the way he did it, Like he

671
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,880
could have argued maybe that would be his way of

672
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,480
thinking he's saving face or bullshitted, but the way he

673
00:34:09,519 --> 00:34:13,679
did it was, in my opinion, the most succinct way

674
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,519
to save face is just like not get into it,

675
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:19,360
not say any more details, not pull his own spot up,

676
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:20,719
just like Okay.

677
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, he I mean he made an ass

678
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,840
of himself. He tried it. His fight part showed right up.

679
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had hit the table once, but then he

680
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,079
did say that thing about my life's built on nothing

681
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,920
and that to me, that was really cool. But again,

682
00:34:34,079 --> 00:34:36,320
but again I think he was talking about himself and

683
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,800
not thinking about Rose. That's what I mean. He's like,

684
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,719
what we've been talking about is he's so caught up

685
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,320
in his own ego. Yeah, yeah, that he's not. He

686
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,519
can't even hear how awful that is. That takes my

687
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:50,639
breath away every time I hear it. Because also Olympia

688
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:55,280
Ducocus does such a great job reacting to that where

689
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,960
she got her right there. Yeah, like her tearing up

690
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,679
her taking so such a big offense to that, because

691
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,320
that is a really offensive thing to say to your

692
00:35:05,519 --> 00:35:08,280
wife who you've been with for fifty some years, that

693
00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:11,519
you are talking about her life too, in the life

694
00:35:11,519 --> 00:35:13,880
you've built together and the children you had, one of

695
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,599
them's here at the table, why don't you spit in

696
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:16,000
my face?

697
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 2: Basically, and to God, I mean, they're very Catholic.

698
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,079
Speaker 1: So well, she wants me to go to confession, correct,

699
00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:24,679
which I also feel like that's the penance and that's

700
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,280
her kind of just asking him to do. Also, the

701
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,079
thing we're talking about, which is you need to go

702
00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:32,440
look at yourself in the face, and how they would

703
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,719
look at theirselves in the face as someone who's raised

704
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,039
Catholic myself, is you do go to confession and you

705
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:42,079
have to sit in humility and admit to what you've done.

706
00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:45,320
And as we see in the scene with Loretta in

707
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,079
the confessional, their priest knows who they are, like what

708
00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:51,320
do you look? Says like for sure, Coretta, that they

709
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,280
have that small probably neighborhood parish where everybody goes to

710
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,679
confession all the time, and so everyone knows each other. Ye,

711
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,199
she's not surprised to see your mom. They're necessarily like,

712
00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:04,000
they're not spurtly surprised to chief to each other. Maybe

713
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,119
they're surprise by professional but yeah, and so her saying

714
00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:08,840
I want you to be confessional, and he is that

715
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,880
more like that stronger reaction to that, because what she's

716
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:13,599
saying is you got to You can't. It's not just

717
00:36:13,639 --> 00:36:15,599
gonna be done here at the table. You're not getting

718
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:18,320
off that easy. No, you also have to go have

719
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,960
an ego death basically, yeah, with the priest, and then

720
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,360
you can come back to me and we'll keep it moving. Yeah.

721
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,119
Speaker 2: She said exactly what she needed to in the ways

722
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:30,920
that she needed to. But had she not done that

723
00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:39,320
anthropologic study of talking to that dipshit and realizing that, oh,

724
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,559
people get this lost, she found empathy for him. Yes,

725
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,880
at no point did Rose intend to leave his ass,

726
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,679
but she was thinking about it until she encountered Professor Dickhead.

727
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,320
And when she realized the universality of what men are

728
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,599
struggling with, I think it changed her approach and she

729
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,599
saw the brokenness that this man has that's her husband.

730
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,440
And when she sat and took that punch, that emotional

731
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,280
punch right in the face of him, invalidating her whole

732
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,960
life and everything that she's done to make him happy

733
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:16,719
and say, my life is built on nothing. She does

734
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,599
nothing other than in Italian I love you.

735
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is he should get on his knees and

736
00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:24,679
kiss her little feet. I know why he's the way

737
00:37:24,679 --> 00:37:26,920
he is. Yeah yeah, But I'm just like, oh, that's

738
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,679
the real moment of generosity she gives to him, Because

739
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,679
you're right, Like, she's settled with what her life mm hmm.

740
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,360
She's grounded within herself. Yes, she's not struggling with her ego.

741
00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:41,159
Speaker 2: She is not. She's on ego integrity, which.

742
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: Is also why she's having a hard time understanding his

743
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,760
deal and well, why men cheat?

744
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she's struggling because she's got everything she wanted.

745
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,280
She has her life. She wants to see her daughter

746
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:56,079
married and do well. And she knows that she's struggling

747
00:37:56,119 --> 00:37:58,360
because her husband died and she didn't get to do

748
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,880
the things that she wanted, and she seeing her daughter not,

749
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,719
you know, necessarily pass through her own stages and kind

750
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,119
of reverting back through when she already passed through. Her

751
00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:13,360
daughter should be well into a different phase than seeking

752
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,840
a relationship, supposed to be clear of that already, but

753
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:21,239
her husband died, so she's back and she knows it.

754
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:25,679
But everything else she's watching with appreciation, where she's watching

755
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,360
her husband go look so lost because he wants his

756
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,639
fucking sled. He wants to feel things, to feel alive

757
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:34,480
when he's facing the twilight of his life and not

758
00:38:34,519 --> 00:38:38,480
accepting it, and she's realizing that he's in a crisis.

759
00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:41,119
Speaker 1: It also makes me wonder with Loretta and also maybe

760
00:38:41,199 --> 00:38:44,840
wonder with Rose too, or even like Rita when Raymond's

761
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,159
kind of like flirting with her and all a sudden

762
00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:49,559
she's like stop at we're old, Like she's like, what's

763
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,159
wrong with you? Actually, in the beginning of movie, when

764
00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:54,280
Loretta is kind of going around all the businesses she

765
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,559
book keeps. And there's another couple. They're older. There's a

766
00:38:57,559 --> 00:38:59,840
couple and he tries to with his wife and she's

767
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,480
like stop, sure, stop at year olds. He's like, ah,

768
00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:06,360
come on, and it's cute too, but he is to

769
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:07,920
go to talk her into it. It almost makes me

770
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,360
wonder if I think for women that we are still

771
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,280
to this day to a certain extent. So this idea

772
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,760
of like, you have a shelf life that ends pretty early.

773
00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:23,000
You're only hot sexy furle until you're what thirty thirty five,

774
00:39:23,159 --> 00:39:26,039
maybe if you're extra hot, hitting the wall is actually

775
00:39:26,039 --> 00:39:28,880
the phrase that men still use on the internet about women.

776
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,199
Oh she hit the wall because she's older than like

777
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,800
thirty or whatever, I can get fun And I yes,

778
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,239
And so I wonder too with like women, because Loretta

779
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,159
has also resigned herself at thirty eight to be like

780
00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:42,400
this old spinstery maid even though she's my age. Is

781
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,320
this idea that they die when they're young, this young

782
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,719
version of them. They kind of accept that that version

783
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,559
of you dies young and you can't get it back

784
00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:54,039
because you're on the shelf. You hit the wall. Whatever

785
00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:56,559
we think about women, and so this idea is like

786
00:39:56,599 --> 00:39:59,159
an older woman to try to like get back to that.

787
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,840
Women have a like have a different identity crisis going on,

788
00:40:03,679 --> 00:40:05,320
or not one at all at this older age, because

789
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,719
I think there's more of this idea that we're conditioned

790
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,039
to have as women, of there's no regaining your youth

791
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,599
once you're done, you're done. I don't think it's a

792
00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:13,119
good idea.

793
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 2: It's her whole story, right, that's her story. She's rediscovering

794
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,880
that and proving that's false lore.

795
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well yes, and so I think we'll talk more

796
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,719
about that. But I mean, like with Rose having a

797
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,400
hard time understanding Cosmo and these other men, because I

798
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,400
don't think it's an idea that even crosses an older

799
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,760
woman's mind. I have to get back to this like

800
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,519
a younger version of myself or being seen as a

801
00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:37,119
younger version of myself because as women were never taught

802
00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,400
that's even a possibility, whereas men like you can have

803
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,880
babies till you're dead and all this other stuff. Right,

804
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,800
So I think there's this idea more with men that

805
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,400
you can like recapture a youth or a strength or

806
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,079
the ego or whatever that I don't think women are

807
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,079
conditioned to believe in.

808
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's true.

809
00:40:56,519 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: There's just no recapturing anything. As a woman. You're like, well,

810
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,199
I'm older now and the world treats me different, yep.

811
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,519
Speaker 2: Which is an unfortunate reality. One of the things that's

812
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:09,159
a persistent belief about men that is probably created by

813
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,440
men conveniently for our benefit. But the idea that like

814
00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:15,639
men look better when they get older. Who made that

815
00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:16,159
shit up?

816
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: Like oh, salt and pepper man, Like the fact that

817
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,079
like a man's like a carry grant type as they

818
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:27,159
get older, the way George Clooney was treated until he

819
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,960
got married. Basically, Yeah, and how there's not really a

820
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,840
woman version of that. Definitely not. Even if you say cougar,

821
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,599
that's not said in like a sexy way. Really, it's

822
00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:39,599
usually making fun.

823
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:45,079
Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, no, no, that's no. It can be either.

824
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,679
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you this from the women. Never look

825
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,760
at a woman who's a cougar and they're like, ooh whatever,

826
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,519
use the word cougar. No in a nice.

827
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 2: Way, y'all might not.

828
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,079
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think any woman aspires.

829
00:41:57,639 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: To be a cougar, is what I'm saying. Yeahly not no, Yes.

830
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: The way that I think men peter Pan syndrome.

831
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 2: Shit, yeah, no, no, no, I accept that. But yeah,

832
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,360
on the men's side of that, they're gonna look at

833
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,679
that at least as more potentially positive because perhaps they

834
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,400
can get with a hot older lady who's hot to trot.

835
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:21,679
So never mind what mental space she's in, and that

836
00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:24,199
that might not be coming from a healthy place. Yeah,

837
00:42:24,199 --> 00:42:27,000
And that all those sacrifices that she's making to dye

838
00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:29,760
her hair and appear younger and work out and all

839
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,960
the things she's putting herself through might not be coming

840
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,400
from a healthy place of acceptance. And the surgeries or

841
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,159
whatever else she may have done to appear youthful, if

842
00:42:39,159 --> 00:42:41,199
she's not one of the lucky few who can look

843
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,119
like that later into life, that that's a massive sacrifice.

844
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:49,599
That's you know, there's some shit there. They're they're they're

845
00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:52,519
looking at that as like because they're idiots, going, oh,

846
00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:55,639
look at the older ladies into me, and you just go, oh, buddy.

847
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,519
Speaker 1: I guess I'm just wanting to touch upon how like

848
00:42:57,559 --> 00:43:00,199
the gender dynamics can come into play with this idea yea,

849
00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:04,079
and also how it infiltrates, infiltrates and shows up in

850
00:43:04,119 --> 00:43:08,000
the way that Rose is like, what the fuck, why

851
00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:10,079
is he doing this? Why are you doing that? You

852
00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:15,840
look stupid? Cause even like if I saw a version

853
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,599
of Perry that was a woman with young college age guys,

854
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,599
I would also be like, you look stupid. Of course,

855
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,480
Like there's not really a version of what Perry Indra

856
00:43:26,559 --> 00:43:30,320
Cosmo's doing that. I think other women really like Revere

857
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,559
the way that I think sometimes it seems to me

858
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:37,320
outside looking in that men will kind of like Revere

859
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,519
that of men that do.

860
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 2: That, certainly men of this time, yeah, men of men

861
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,719
of that time, men of now a little bit mixed, yeah, mixed.

862
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: But like I look at that and I think kind

863
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,039
of what Rose is talking about, which is like, what's

864
00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:52,039
going on with you, bro? Like that doesn't look sexy

865
00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:54,920
or impressive to me. You look like someone who's trying

866
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,000
to fill up a hole inside of them.

867
00:43:57,039 --> 00:43:59,559
Speaker 2: Looking at the different standards and the different things that

868
00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:02,480
happened to men and women across ages, and how things

869
00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:07,400
are idolized versus looked at as sad, broken humans trying

870
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,679
to recapture things that they've lost and not accepting where

871
00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:12,320
they are, and then making ridiculous sacrifices to get there,

872
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,239
which happens on both sides, right, all sides.

873
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 1: And how this really hurts men, right, is that it

874
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,440
creates this idea that you can do this.

875
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can recapture Bill. Yeah, like, oh, have you

876
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:28,719
guys seen the Mermaid picture?

877
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: I don't want I don't want to see anything Sunday,

878
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,880
the day of the Lord. I don't want to see that,

879
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,320
not on the day.

880
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,159
Speaker 2: Fuck, I'm gonna show it to you anyway, wait.

881
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:43,119
Speaker 1: Till we go on? Should we take another break here

882
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:43,880
and then be.

883
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 2: Back Yes, but we should probably conclude this Mary Adventures.

884
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you then, Hannah alpha to wrap

885
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,199
it up. What do you take from the final scene

886
00:44:52,599 --> 00:44:55,079
with Rose saying that in front of everyone. I think

887
00:44:55,119 --> 00:45:00,159
that she is using her leverage in the right way,

888
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,519
like the power she has, the power that she has.

889
00:45:03,639 --> 00:45:06,280
I think that she is using that power in that moment.

890
00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:09,119
She doesn't have to say a lot. She just says,

891
00:45:09,159 --> 00:45:11,559
I want you to stop seeing her and go to confession,

892
00:45:11,599 --> 00:45:14,159
And then she says, then go to confession. But I

893
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,719
really feel like it almost feels like she's calling him in.

894
00:45:18,039 --> 00:45:20,000
It does feel like she's calling him in because I

895
00:45:20,039 --> 00:45:23,599
think she's letting him know in some ways, when she

896
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,199
says this, she's also seeing him like I see you,

897
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,920
I see what the fuck you're doing, and it's not okay,

898
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,000
and you have to knock it off. Yeap affairs affect

899
00:45:33,519 --> 00:45:37,679
everyone in the family. Yes, they don't just affect the

900
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,760
two people who are experiencing the betrayal or the one

901
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,400
person who's experiencing the betrayal. So I think in a

902
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,400
lot of ways, it's actually really smart to put it

903
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,440
out in the open like that, in a way where

904
00:45:49,519 --> 00:45:52,679
even though we already know that she already talked to Loretta, Yeah,

905
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,800
and Loretta already kind of new Wells adult exactly, and

906
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,920
everybody's adults, so that's also a different experience as well.

907
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,079
I feel like she is also showing him that you

908
00:46:04,119 --> 00:46:08,199
don't we don't have to you're hiding something, you don't

909
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,320
have to do that, you don't have to act like this,

910
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,880
like you're a part of us. Yeah, you're a part

911
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,960
of this family, and you're And he's really like pushing

912
00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:19,920
himself off by himself even by like she points out

913
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,679
that he's drinking more, he's more grumpy, he's not answering

914
00:46:23,679 --> 00:46:25,719
her questions when she asks him, where have you been

915
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,039
or what's going on? Or how are you feeling? He

916
00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:31,119
doesn't answer any of those questions do any of those things?

917
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,039
So I feel like when she brings it up at

918
00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:37,079
the table and then very like you said, very graciously

919
00:46:37,159 --> 00:46:41,920
and very generously, then says, and I love you, come

920
00:46:42,119 --> 00:46:44,719
back to us. I get it. You did this thing.

921
00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:48,639
I love you. Let's continue to have this happy life

922
00:46:48,679 --> 00:46:53,000
that we have. Yeah, that the thing of like we've

923
00:46:53,159 --> 00:46:55,800
we've made a good life. Let's not fuck it up

924
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,000
in the eleventh hour, right, and look at everyone here.

925
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:02,840
All the is here, This is all that we've built.

926
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,000
These are all of the people. This is what that

927
00:47:06,079 --> 00:47:11,400
love us. Yes, us together, all of us. And you

928
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,719
are married to me. I am the matriarch. You are

929
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:16,400
the patriarch.

930
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 2: But you also need to get your shit together, snap

931
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:24,679
out of this bullshit and wake up because this these

932
00:47:24,679 --> 00:47:28,280
are the stakes. This is what you have to lose.

933
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:29,199
Speaker 1: Yeah.

934
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,079
Speaker 2: Because she was not soul searching and exploring to figure

935
00:47:34,079 --> 00:47:35,800
out what the fuck is wrong with him? She was

936
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,199
soul searching and figuring out am I ready to leave this?

937
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,199
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like, is this a done deal?

938
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:47,559
Speaker 2: She decided no. But had he continued past this point,

939
00:47:48,079 --> 00:47:50,000
I guarantee that would be a different answer.

940
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 1: Very do you know what? You know? What else I

941
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,880
really appreciate about Rose is that she also doesn't try

942
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,960
to look and see what she's done wrong. So many

943
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,280
times when we see a partner cheat in films and

944
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,239
in media, we see that the woman becomes like, what

945
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,199
did I do wrong? Am I not sexy enough? Am

946
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,360
I not young enough? And I'm not? She doesn't think

947
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,480
about any of that shit. She's just like, why does

948
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:11,159
one man need more than one woman? Yeah?

949
00:48:12,559 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 2: Mona.

950
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 1: She doesn't need to know anything about Mona. No, she doesn't.

951
00:48:16,039 --> 00:48:19,960
She's not like, oh, is she younger, prettier, whatever? Mona

952
00:48:20,159 --> 00:48:24,400
is inconsequential, She's just a byproduct of that thing that

953
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:25,320
cause was going through.

954
00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:27,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep.

955
00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:29,679
Speaker 1: Maybe that's when she gets the answer. She can kind

956
00:48:29,679 --> 00:48:31,079
of make peace with herself of like, oh, it has

957
00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:32,039
nothing to do with this girl.

958
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: Actually, yes, other woman, it has nothing to do with me,

959
00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:37,199
It has nothing to do with her. It's because he's

960
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,000
acting like he's a mess, because he is, because he is.

961
00:48:41,039 --> 00:48:45,000
And when she finds that empathy for him, she extends

962
00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:48,000
an olive branch. And then of course a consequence which

963
00:48:48,079 --> 00:48:48,719
good for her.

964
00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: Which is also I think, and you might bring this

965
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:53,239
up later, Hannah, when you have to work with a

966
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,960
couple who has done something like this, there both has

967
00:48:56,039 --> 00:48:58,440
to be a commitment to moving forward with the relationship,

968
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,760
but they're not going to keep punishing each other. Yes,

969
00:49:01,119 --> 00:49:04,920
but also there has to be something that the person

970
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:06,719
who does the wrong thing kind of has to do

971
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,000
to show to the person who's been wronged, going to

972
00:49:09,039 --> 00:49:11,840
like confession and maybe something else too. Yeah, you know,

973
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,320
maybe she's like you got to talk to the priest

974
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,960
once a week. Yeah, is him showing to her I'm

975
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,599
hearing you and I'm going to follow through with being

976
00:49:18,599 --> 00:49:20,280
someone that you can trust.

977
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we should take a break here. Welcome back

978
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:24,800
from our break.

979
00:49:25,639 --> 00:49:27,119
Speaker 1: So now we're going to talk about the star of

980
00:49:27,159 --> 00:49:32,599
the show. Who was this Loretta Loretta aka Share Share

981
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,360
She's incredible. So Loretta is kind of the reverse situation

982
00:49:36,519 --> 00:49:42,280
where she went through a trauma in her early well

983
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,840
thirty right, because she says like, I waited for love,

984
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:47,679
So I waited till I got married, till I was

985
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:53,599
old twenty eight, twenty eight, then she had and then

986
00:49:53,639 --> 00:49:56,400
it got hit by bus. Yeah, And so she's someone

987
00:49:56,519 --> 00:49:59,440
who has actually kind of resigned herself to being old

988
00:49:59,599 --> 00:50:02,199
and what she's kind of given up in a different way.

989
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,639
And I think it really shows in her relationship with Johnny,

990
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:10,800
where it's very platonic. It's not very romantic. No, it's

991
00:50:11,039 --> 00:50:16,320
very practical. It's very I need to get married to somebody.

992
00:50:16,159 --> 00:50:19,039
Speaker 2: And have kids because these are the things that I want,

993
00:50:19,559 --> 00:50:24,599
and I haven't had anybody come knocking. So I guess

994
00:50:24,679 --> 00:50:28,760
I gotta settle for this guy because he's here pretty much.

995
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,559
Speaker 1: Well, it makes you wonder like Loretta obviously, Oh, I

996
00:50:32,599 --> 00:50:35,519
assume she really really loved her husband, Yes, because she

997
00:50:35,639 --> 00:50:38,360
waited until she didn't settle. She waited until she was

998
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,480
in love, and then he fucking died horribly and she'd

999
00:50:43,559 --> 00:50:46,559
move back home and live other parents, And so I

1000
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:50,079
would imagine I'm sure a good chunk of her thirties

1001
00:50:50,559 --> 00:50:54,280
were spent in like full blown grief, trying to get

1002
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:55,599
herself together.

1003
00:50:55,519 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: Like an actual existential crisis that yes, your entire life

1004
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,159
just blew up.

1005
00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:02,079
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1006
00:51:02,199 --> 00:51:06,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything that you thought was going to be was

1007
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,599
taken away in an instant hit by a bus.

1008
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. So by the time she's probably has enough energy

1009
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,920
to like lift her head out of the fog. She

1010
00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:18,679
is like at an age where you are told you're

1011
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,840
like a dinosaur, especially if you're trying to get pregnant.

1012
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,159
Oh yeah, I mean even when even when her mom

1013
00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:26,239
brings up to her, well I had your brother after,

1014
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,679
you know, after I was thirty eight, and even Chaer

1015
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,000
is like, I yeah, but I don't think that's just

1016
00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:33,760
not going to happen. She really doesn't think that she's

1017
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,360
going to be able to have a baby. Yeah, Like

1018
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,679
she thinks it's her life is done in a lot

1019
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,079
of ways which she has not settled with. Clearly, she

1020
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,400
is not okay with that. You know, people reach certain

1021
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,280
ages and don't have kids and are fine with that,

1022
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,000
but she's not. Well, it's because it's something a choice

1023
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,599
that got made for her, yes, instead of a choice

1024
00:51:54,639 --> 00:51:56,000
she made right.

1025
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: Which is different. You know people that choose they don't

1026
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:04,280
want kids and start hitting the point where some doctor

1027
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,800
would very kindly tell them that if they would have kids,

1028
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,320
that it's a geriatric pregnancy at this point, which is

1029
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:11,719
you know.

1030
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: A man came up with that fucking term.

1031
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think anyone.

1032
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: Cheriatric is so crazy for high risk as soon as

1033
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,199
you hit thirty five, you're automatically high risk pregnancy.

1034
00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:24,039
Speaker 2: Yes, well they replaced high risk with geriatric.

1035
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:26,039
Speaker 1: Well they're fucking counts, aren't they?

1036
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 2: Your words? Your words? I am correct, but you know

1037
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,000
you're correct because you know we had our second child

1038
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:41,239
after thirty five and those terms were used. Yeah, and

1039
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,559
they were like, whoa old lady entering Obgyn?

1040
00:52:44,599 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: Clear the way for this thirty six.

1041
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 2: Year old I you know, looking back on I really

1042
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,920
wish Caroline would have gone in like with her hair

1043
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,000
sprayed stark white, with like a babushka on and a

1044
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:01,159
cane walking into the next even a walker to be

1045
00:53:01,199 --> 00:53:03,079
like walking. I could tell them to suck it.

1046
00:53:03,599 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I got a baby.

1047
00:53:06,159 --> 00:53:10,599
Speaker 2: You know, my wife is a spirited Italian woman. This

1048
00:53:10,679 --> 00:53:13,679
is not beyond something she could do. I wish, you know,

1049
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,199
that would have been something we would have been in

1050
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,000
a place to unlock from our personalities, but we were

1051
00:53:18,039 --> 00:53:21,519
not because it was scary. You're automatically a high risk

1052
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:25,639
pregnancy and they can certainly see you next fucking Tuesday. Yeah. Yeah.

1053
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:30,239
So in the eighties, worse, not better, right.

1054
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: Definitely yeah, worse, definitely worse. And as someone hook I said,

1055
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,159
who grew up Catholic, there was many a Catholic family

1056
00:53:37,199 --> 00:53:40,199
in my church growing up, where they were having babies

1057
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,280
well past thirty eight, but not their first kid. Yeah,

1058
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,760
I think that's like the hard part. Interesting is then

1059
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:52,480
these like classic no no contraceptive Catholic families that they

1060
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,960
will have babies up until they're forty, until the woman

1061
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,239
has meta pause pretty much pretty much.

1062
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:57,039
Speaker 2: And.

1063
00:53:58,559 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 1: So it's interesting that though that's usually a common thing,

1064
00:54:03,199 --> 00:54:05,079
that there is still this idea of like, you can't

1065
00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:07,880
start having babies this late.

1066
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,599
Speaker 2: Correct, which is a very different thing because subsequent pregnancies

1067
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,760
are much easier on a body than the first one,

1068
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,119
but also you figure some shit out. But she doesn't

1069
00:54:22,119 --> 00:54:26,800
even know who the father is gonna be because no

1070
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:31,119
men have come a coin, which seems, you know, doubtful.

1071
00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:36,480
It seems more likely she was not open to anyone

1072
00:54:37,039 --> 00:54:39,119
stepping into her life because the love of her life

1073
00:54:39,159 --> 00:54:41,199
got fucking killed horrible.

1074
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 1: Which is how I think Johnny weaseled his way in.

1075
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,280
There was just a friend he's probably was just a

1076
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,440
friend of the restaurant who's always sitting by himself. Yeah,

1077
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,599
Bobo at the beginning, and he's like, oh, we're losing

1078
00:54:51,599 --> 00:54:53,559
a bachelor customer. You hate to see it.

1079
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:58,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this guy is he was there, Yeah,

1080
00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:00,840
and he like said okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1081
00:55:00,679 --> 00:55:04,559
Speaker 1: Because as we can see, and Johnny go ahead, and

1082
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:08,360
Johnny asks only asked Loretta to marry him because his

1083
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,679
mother is dying. The way he proposes to her is obnoxious.

1084
00:55:12,679 --> 00:55:15,519
By the end of the proposal, almost as Batman, he's

1085
00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:19,239
acting like, oh girl, he's acting like she proposed to him.

1086
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 2: Did you just say almost as bad as Batman?

1087
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: The worst proposal in the business.

1088
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,519
Speaker 2: Yes, I would just like to point out that you

1089
00:55:26,559 --> 00:55:27,480
said Batman.

1090
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,679
Speaker 1: Mask of the Fan. Well, we're gonna him mask of

1091
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,199
the Fan. Why do you have to say it? Who's

1092
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,599
the worst proposer? Bruce Wayne doing karate in his backyard

1093
00:55:36,679 --> 00:55:39,639
or garage or whatever. Or Johnny? No, Johnny, it's Johnny

1094
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,000
because it's like because also like Johnny.

1095
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 2: The fun out of here. It's Johnny. You guys don't

1096
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,239
even believe yourselves right now. You're just trying to me

1097
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,320
because you're right, My trolley has been so effective over

1098
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,239
the past seven seasons that you are doing it to yourself.

1099
00:55:53,840 --> 00:56:00,639
Speaker 1: Yes, but yeah, like well one, Loretta is like over

1100
00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:04,079
identifying with being old, absolutely, and the idea of the

1101
00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:07,639
idea of being old, like she's it's not even necessarily

1102
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:10,280
that her hair's going gray and she's not covering it.

1103
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,599
It's also the way that she is, she's styling her hair,

1104
00:56:13,639 --> 00:56:17,400
the way that she's dressing, the way that she's holding herself,

1105
00:56:17,519 --> 00:56:21,880
like she's someone that has let the idea of herself

1106
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:26,440
being like fun and taking care of herself and this

1107
00:56:26,639 --> 00:56:29,880
and this, like just like appreciating her beauty and her

1108
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,760
body and her looks and the canvas that is your body,

1109
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,079
Like she gave it all that up. Maybe that's something too,

1110
00:56:37,199 --> 00:56:39,519
Like when you're in grief the way that she probably was,

1111
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,280
you don't really give a shit about that stuff. And

1112
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,239
then I wonder if like coming out of it, like

1113
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,920
the best she could do is kind of what we

1114
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,639
saw in the beginning. Yeah, Like my hair's pinned back,

1115
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,199
you know, it's it's orderly, Like she looks very much together.

1116
00:56:55,599 --> 00:56:57,639
She also very much looks like if you looked up

1117
00:56:57,679 --> 00:57:02,480
Spinster in the dictionary, old girl's pictures right there, like

1118
00:57:02,639 --> 00:57:05,320
with the hair all back and with her coat done

1119
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,199
all the way up to her fucking chin, and her boots,

1120
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,199
like you don't see any of her skin, yeah, at

1121
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,679
all and so also Johnny is someone who's also very

1122
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:20,000
unthreatening because when you've gone through the trauma she's gone through,

1123
00:57:20,679 --> 00:57:24,800
the idea of like giving your heart away to someone

1124
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:29,719
that you will love that much again is terrifying. So

1125
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,320
also Johnny's a very safe person to be with, kind

1126
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:33,840
of what her mom says, do you love him?

1127
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:34,199
Speaker 2: No?

1128
00:57:34,599 --> 00:57:37,679
Speaker 1: Good? Do you like him? You know? Like that's also

1129
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,119
she's invested in that idea too, because if something happened

1130
00:57:42,119 --> 00:57:46,199
to Johnny, you know, no offense to Johnny, she'd be fine. Yeah,

1131
00:57:46,239 --> 00:57:48,599
and she knows that, Yeah, she knows she's marrying this

1132
00:57:48,719 --> 00:57:52,639
whatever guy, which is also why that shitty proposal is

1133
00:57:52,639 --> 00:57:55,199
good enough for her because he doesn't have a ring,

1134
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,519
he doesn't have jack shit, he doesn't have anything. He

1135
00:57:58,519 --> 00:58:01,199
doesn't have anything. And again, you don't have to do

1136
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,840
like a whole dog and Pony show to tell someone

1137
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:05,760
that you want to marry that ring, but you should

1138
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,280
have a fucking ring. It's like he didn't even think

1139
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,920
about a ring until she brought it up. Yeah, because

1140
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,119
I feel like he found out his mother was dying

1141
00:58:13,159 --> 00:58:14,800
and he just asked her the first chance he goyn,

1142
00:58:15,199 --> 00:58:19,079
I should have dinner on Friday like we always do.

1143
00:58:19,159 --> 00:58:21,920
So I'll just order to shame the champagne extra yeah,

1144
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,079
and then begrudgingly giving her the pinky ring, getting on

1145
00:58:25,079 --> 00:58:26,920
one knee when she say at the end, she goes,

1146
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:31,599
you just have to be there. I'll do everything once again.

1147
00:58:31,679 --> 00:58:33,199
You would think if you just heard the end of

1148
00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:35,880
that conversation, you would think that she came to dinner like, well,

1149
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,760
you please marry me? Yes, please, please, please, please please,

1150
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:42,280
And he was like fine, like as if he didn't

1151
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,239
initiate it and proposed to her.

1152
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think she was expecting that to happen,

1153
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,159
but she was like yeah, okay.

1154
00:58:49,119 --> 00:58:51,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he don't know. He's such a ding dong,

1155
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:56,920
like he is comic relief, Like he is doing clown work.

1156
00:58:55,719 --> 00:58:59,679
He is like the Sircases thing was Danny Ayela.

1157
00:59:00,199 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 2: This guy usually plays mobsters.

1158
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but he's doing good clown work in this.

1159
00:59:06,159 --> 00:59:07,519
When he tugs the top of his hair, he's like,

1160
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,039
what was he saying about the sky not enough, not

1161
00:59:11,159 --> 00:59:12,960
enough bloods getting to my sculpe sometimes.

1162
00:59:13,079 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, he normally plays scary mobsters. Yeah, good fellows and

1163
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,599
like or something along those lines.

1164
00:59:18,599 --> 00:59:21,119
Speaker 1: He plays. He's been into a ton of shit.

1165
00:59:21,239 --> 00:59:25,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, he normally plays like the scary mobster characters.

1166
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: So good in this dumb ass Oh he's so dumb.

1167
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,039
Johnny makes sense for where Lorette is at in the

1168
00:59:31,079 --> 00:59:34,320
beginning of this movie. He's just a whatever. He's a

1169
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,280
placeholder for a milestone in life. Which also I wonder

1170
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,519
with her parents getting older too, if there's a part

1171
00:59:41,559 --> 00:59:44,000
of her that's like, I have to it's still the eighties,

1172
00:59:44,079 --> 00:59:46,760
you know, this idea of a husband is protection too.

1173
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:49,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's still the eighties. Women have

1174
00:59:49,559 --> 00:59:53,199
been able to have credit cards for eight years at

1175
00:59:53,199 --> 00:59:55,280
this point, maybe maybe less.

1176
00:59:55,639 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: But also in this cultural setting, we're talking about where

1177
01:00:00,119 --> 01:00:02,360
you live with your parents. So you get married and

1178
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:04,159
then you live with your husband, and then when your

1179
01:00:04,199 --> 01:00:06,360
husband dies, like in this situation, you move back in

1180
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,000
with your family. So also it's a way for her

1181
01:00:09,039 --> 01:00:10,880
to maybe she feels like, so I can move on

1182
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,320
with my life and have my own home and all

1183
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,320
that kind of stuff too, And she's I don't know,

1184
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:20,400
because John's a little bit them because Rose wants her

1185
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,679
to move in. She's like, why don't you move in

1186
01:00:22,679 --> 01:00:24,320
that She's like, I would love to move in. I

1187
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,480
love the house. I would love to live here. Pop

1188
01:00:26,519 --> 01:00:31,679
don't like Johnny, So that's the because she she would

1189
01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:35,079
be interested in that in living at home still, so

1190
01:00:35,679 --> 01:00:39,440
that makes sense. But I think that also just the

1191
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,679
idea of like generational living is so interesting in general

1192
01:00:42,719 --> 01:00:47,960
and is really cool to see in this film. Yeah.

1193
01:00:48,039 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And when they're talking about selling the house for.

1194
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,239
Speaker 1: Them, which they would get a pretty if they could

1195
01:00:54,239 --> 01:00:57,239
hold onto that property for another thirty years, right, I mean,

1196
01:00:57,239 --> 01:00:59,880
I think that's why they want Leretta to move in, Yeah, yes,

1197
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:01,800
so that she can take the house over when they're gone.

1198
01:01:02,159 --> 01:01:05,519
Speaker 2: But also don't forget the cultural aspect of this, of

1199
01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:08,960
that they want to see their daughter married. They're living

1200
01:01:09,039 --> 01:01:13,480
in a clearly small Italian community, which you know, in

1201
01:01:13,519 --> 01:01:16,960
New York in the eighties would still be a holdover

1202
01:01:17,119 --> 01:01:21,519
from what used to exist because remember, for a long

1203
01:01:21,559 --> 01:01:26,719
time Italians not looked favorably upon in New York, in

1204
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:31,840
particular when they immigrated in mass following the collapse of

1205
01:01:32,079 --> 01:01:36,679
their economy and world in the fifties, because remember they

1206
01:01:36,679 --> 01:01:40,159
were part of the Axis Powers, they were the enemy. Yeah,

1207
01:01:40,639 --> 01:01:46,639
managed to carve out a higher place in society now eventually,

1208
01:01:46,679 --> 01:01:47,599
but then.

1209
01:01:48,159 --> 01:01:51,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, and that's what the Godfather's about exactly.

1210
01:01:51,679 --> 01:01:54,239
Speaker 2: And the godfathers earlier than this, right, Yeah, obviously, but

1211
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:59,280
you know, persona non grata would have been an accurate description.

1212
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:04,719
So these small ethnic communities are all about survival and

1213
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:09,159
they figured out some patterns that work, which is staying

1214
01:02:09,199 --> 01:02:14,800
within their community and growing their families within their community.

1215
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,079
And now that she's not having a husband, they know,

1216
01:02:18,199 --> 01:02:20,639
as they're going to die, and she'll know, the message

1217
01:02:20,679 --> 01:02:24,239
they've been getting since they were kids is find a husband,

1218
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:30,199
get married, have kids, stay within our family, our people. Well,

1219
01:02:30,519 --> 01:02:33,760
she's not able, she's getting old and worried about death.

1220
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,360
She doesn't have a husband. What's going to happen to

1221
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:37,960
her when they die?

1222
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you can tell that she is looking for

1223
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,679
somewhere to put that caretaker role because even when she

1224
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,840
goes to meet Ronnie and she goes to his apartment,

1225
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,039
she immediately starts making him food. In this very this

1226
01:02:52,079 --> 01:02:53,760
is what she does, like even though she's never been

1227
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:58,840
there before. Her role is to know men's needs and

1228
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,159
to fulfill them. Right, you need steak, you need blood.

1229
01:03:03,079 --> 01:03:06,000
She goes right into that, even with the manches and no,

1230
01:03:06,159 --> 01:03:08,920
so you're right in that not only are her parents

1231
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,519
getting older, but then who's she going to keep taking

1232
01:03:11,559 --> 01:03:12,639
care of when they're gone?

1233
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:16,599
Speaker 2: So she needs like a husband in that role? That too, right,

1234
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:20,559
It's it's all of those. Yeah, it's how how do

1235
01:03:20,599 --> 01:03:22,880
I find fulfillment? How do I find protection? How do

1236
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,800
I execute the roles I'm comfortable with? How do I

1237
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,320
get my needs met? Because Johnny or Ronnie, one of

1238
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,719
the two of them is going to meet some needs.

1239
01:03:33,159 --> 01:03:36,079
The other one is dipshit? Who is what did the

1240
01:03:36,159 --> 01:03:37,320
dad call him a big baby?

1241
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:39,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, big baby, which I was laughing at because I

1242
01:03:39,199 --> 01:03:42,480
was like, it's a big baby. Look in the mirror, Cosmo,

1243
01:03:42,639 --> 01:03:44,239
I know that's right, and you'll see a baby looking

1244
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:45,320
back at you exactly.

1245
01:03:45,719 --> 01:03:47,719
Speaker 2: But even he's not as big a baby as Johnny.

1246
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 1: Oh, Johnny is a mama's boy. Obviously. It's like, oh

1247
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,880
my god, cries so hard when his mom is laying

1248
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:56,360
in the bed after he gets off the phone when

1249
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:59,400
he's talking to Loretta right and his and even his

1250
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:03,480
mother is like, Ugh, stop with your crying.

1251
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 2: I'm fine, where's my food?

1252
01:04:08,039 --> 01:04:12,159
Speaker 1: Obviously part of why he's like a huge schmuck is

1253
01:04:12,199 --> 01:04:16,079
that when his mother's no longer dying, he goes back

1254
01:04:16,119 --> 01:04:19,559
on his word with Loretta, well because then he thinks

1255
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:21,960
if he marries Loretta, his mother will die. I think

1256
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,239
that's bullshit. I think he's telling himself. I know there's

1257
01:04:25,239 --> 01:04:27,679
a lot of superstition in this movie, but I think

1258
01:04:27,719 --> 01:04:30,559
that's him just looking for an out. Well. Also, Loretta

1259
01:04:30,599 --> 01:04:32,639
points out that she could still hear her big mouth

1260
01:04:32,679 --> 01:04:35,639
talking about her in the background, So I mean, I

1261
01:04:35,639 --> 01:04:38,000
don't know that they have a great relationship. And then

1262
01:04:38,079 --> 01:04:40,320
Ronnie points out, and so your mother is still running

1263
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:42,400
your life You're forty two years old. Yeah, so they

1264
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:46,199
clearly have a dynamic. Yeah, Johnny and his mother. Yeah,

1265
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,199
because Ronnie's not Italy tending over their dying mother.

1266
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:50,679
Speaker 2: He doesn't know well.

1267
01:04:50,679 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: And when Loretta, when Loretta says, she says, why aren't

1268
01:04:56,039 --> 01:04:58,039
you in Palambro And he says, oh, she doesn't like.

1269
01:04:58,039 --> 01:05:01,719
Speaker 2: Me because he isn't going to be controlled.

1270
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 1: Well also because he is beef with Johnny, and I

1271
01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:07,840
wonder if but but I would also say something I

1272
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,159
just want to touch upon with like the identity crisis

1273
01:05:10,159 --> 01:05:14,119
meaning making grief and all that shit is the superstitious

1274
01:05:14,119 --> 01:05:17,000
stuff that Loretta keeps doing. I have to get married no,

1275
01:05:17,079 --> 01:05:18,840
I have to get married in church. I got married

1276
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,119
in city hall. That's why my husband died. She's still scared,

1277
01:05:22,679 --> 01:05:25,599
she still has that obvious imprint of trauma on her,

1278
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:31,039
and so how she's trying to get control over it

1279
01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:33,000
is all the superstitious stuff, which a lot of people do,

1280
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,519
you know. That's why with the Johnny proposal, she's like, no,

1281
01:05:35,599 --> 01:05:37,800
you got to get done on your knees, you got

1282
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:39,559
to give mirror ring. We got to do it right.

1283
01:05:40,559 --> 01:05:42,400
And like also that everyone else is telling her like

1284
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,960
bad luck, the way everyone's talking about bad luck and

1285
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:49,079
making Loretta sound like it's her fault her husband died.

1286
01:05:49,679 --> 01:05:52,320
I guess I wanted to disvalidate for Loretta that. I

1287
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:54,119
get why she does that, because you want to feel

1288
01:05:54,159 --> 01:05:58,480
like you can be in control of your circumstances. And

1289
01:05:58,559 --> 01:06:01,199
so she doesn't get her again. So she does all

1290
01:06:01,199 --> 01:06:03,000
the superstitiou stuff, or she believes in all of it

1291
01:06:03,039 --> 01:06:06,199
because it lets her believe that my next husband won't die.

1292
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,039
And I don't think that stuff's going to necessarily go

1293
01:06:08,079 --> 01:06:09,960
away once she's with Ronnie. But I'll talk about that

1294
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:12,920
in treatment. Yeah, well, I mean it's not Catholicism. Roman

1295
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:18,320
Catholicism as a whole is a superstitious religion. Oh yeah.

1296
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,960
And the reason why I believe in all this supernatural

1297
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,400
stuff is because I was raised Catholic. You get raised

1298
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,159
to believe in like demons and angels and like all

1299
01:06:27,199 --> 01:06:31,360
this like scary weigi boardy stuff. Yeah, and you're right,

1300
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:35,519
like there's a level of mysticism within Catholicism. Yes, that

1301
01:06:35,639 --> 01:06:37,920
is why I'm so witchy nowadays.

1302
01:06:38,119 --> 01:06:44,559
Speaker 2: Yes. I mean I was raised by Methodists and they

1303
01:06:44,599 --> 01:06:48,800
are quite the opposite. It is so different. I remember

1304
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,719
my boy Scout Troupe was in the basement of the

1305
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,280
Catholic Church and once a year we'd go to the

1306
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:57,079
Catholic Mass, and I remember just being there, going what

1307
01:06:57,119 --> 01:07:01,760
the fuck is going on here? And what do you do?

1308
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:01,920
Speaker 1: Like?

1309
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:05,079
Speaker 2: I stand, you kneel, you need to stand? Like what

1310
01:07:05,119 --> 01:07:06,800
am I supposed to do? Am I at the gym?

1311
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:08,320
Or what are we doing here? I don't understand?

1312
01:07:08,599 --> 01:07:12,639
Speaker 1: Love. Wow. Yeah, the Gothic tradition of Catholicism is like

1313
01:07:12,719 --> 01:07:15,079
the only thing it's really got going for it. I

1314
01:07:15,239 --> 01:07:17,199
just I don't think it has anything going for it.

1315
01:07:17,239 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 2: The amount of superstition deeply ingrained within the Italian culture

1316
01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:25,280
in general, and how that spirals off the religion that

1317
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:27,559
headquartered right in the middle of their country.

1318
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:28,639
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

1319
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:31,119
Speaker 2: It makes sense. And when you see her doing all

1320
01:07:31,119 --> 01:07:34,840
these things, yes, psychologically we see that and go, ah,

1321
01:07:35,119 --> 01:07:37,679
we're trying to get control of things that are so

1322
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:41,840
very out of our control and represent the biggest existential

1323
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,480
fear of death and no longer existing and being on

1324
01:07:45,519 --> 01:07:48,960
the other side of realizing how fragile that existence is

1325
01:07:49,559 --> 01:07:53,960
and how quickly gone. Yeah, the spark of life is gone.

1326
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:58,320
It creates the need to feel in control of that,

1327
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:02,880
and she was so stripped of that that it makes

1328
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:05,320
sense that she would be in that place because that's

1329
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:08,079
what people do. We seek to find meaning and control

1330
01:08:08,159 --> 01:08:10,400
in ways that don't even make sense if it makes

1331
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:11,079
us feel better.

1332
01:08:11,239 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so she gets to experience. Though the change

1333
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:15,480
you see with her, like I said, is kind of

1334
01:08:15,519 --> 01:08:21,800
reverse in that she starts the movie giving up and

1335
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,960
I'm old, and by the end of the movie she's

1336
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:28,079
realizing she's only fucking thirty eight, and that she like

1337
01:08:28,119 --> 01:08:30,600
goes and embraces the fear that she's had. Like she

1338
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:34,760
does that embracing of the uncertainty, which is what you

1339
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,800
have to do also with the essential you have to

1340
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:38,359
figure out what you give a shit about, and then

1341
01:08:38,399 --> 01:08:41,039
you have to be okay with with what you can't control.

1342
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:44,600
Her choosing to be with Ronnie is her doing that? Yeah, Yeah,

1343
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,520
I would say that. And I feel like what's interesting

1344
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:51,760
about her and about Loretta and Ronnie is that I

1345
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,039
think they're both people who have given up in a

1346
01:08:54,159 --> 01:08:59,279
very specific way because of loss, whether it's the hand

1347
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:03,079
or the girl friend or losing her husband, and they

1348
01:09:03,119 --> 01:09:06,359
seem to and because they're both in that same place,

1349
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,359
I think that's why we see them kind of clinging

1350
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:11,560
to each other in such a big way, because they

1351
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:16,560
both feel alive again through a time where they've both

1352
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,319
been struck by grief, and it can be really hard

1353
01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:21,880
to feel joy and to feel good and to feel

1354
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:25,279
pleasure and to want to feel pleasure after experiencing some

1355
01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:28,239
of the losses they both had experienced. Yeah, you're right,

1356
01:09:28,279 --> 01:09:33,560
because Ronnie, as you so gloriously acted out in the

1357
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:37,680
very beginning of this episode, he has not just lost

1358
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:41,960
his fiance. Yes, he lost his hand and that's.

1359
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,600
Speaker 2: A big deal, and his brother and.

1360
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: His brother and his family probably too, so he's been

1361
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,079
stuck as well. You're right. I never e thought of

1362
01:09:50,079 --> 01:09:52,680
it this way. That's a great comparison to make Hannah

1363
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,960
in that Loretta's shut down in this very stereotypically like

1364
01:09:56,039 --> 01:09:59,319
shut down. Yes, like she's made herself small and she's

1365
01:09:59,319 --> 01:10:01,640
made her life and she's made her expectation small and

1366
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:05,520
her hope small. Whereas Ronnie is doing the anger.

1367
01:10:05,199 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 2: Approach yes, which is fuck you, I'm gonna kill myself,

1368
01:10:09,239 --> 01:10:10,880
get the big knife off the wall.

1369
01:10:11,319 --> 01:10:15,600
Speaker 1: No, Ronnie, don't do it. And so he's in deep

1370
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,640
pain and he's doing that thing that I feel like

1371
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,800
I do sometimes aries energy is where he's being very

1372
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:28,159
dramatic people people. If people don't know what it means,

1373
01:10:28,199 --> 01:10:29,600
I should look it up. Just look at up, look

1374
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:34,159
at berries fire signing. Basically understand something I've had to

1375
01:10:34,159 --> 01:10:38,199
work on my own therapy is I don't have to

1376
01:10:38,319 --> 01:10:42,560
be very dramatic for people to understand how deep my

1377
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:43,319
feelings are.

1378
01:10:46,119 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 2: And so especially not with an expressive face like yours,

1379
01:10:49,319 --> 01:10:49,760
thank you.

1380
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 1: And so Ronnie, I feel like he's doing that thing

1381
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:57,079
where he is in such deep pain, Ronnie, that he

1382
01:10:57,399 --> 01:11:00,439
is making these big splashes because there's a part of

1383
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:02,479
him that's like I need everyone to know how much

1384
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:06,159
I'm hurting to hurt people. Hurt people. He's having his

1385
01:11:06,319 --> 01:11:10,840
own contradictory experience inside because in his whole little like

1386
01:11:11,079 --> 01:11:14,960
Shakespearean monologue, he gives what he's introduced into the movie.

1387
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,920
He keeps going on and on of a howe, Johnny's fallow,

1388
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,279
johnnys faut, Johnny's fault, and then he goes, Eh, it's

1389
01:11:20,279 --> 01:11:24,479
nobody's fault. But it is what I like about Ronnie

1390
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,000
is And maybe she found him at a time when

1391
01:11:27,039 --> 01:11:30,680
this was already gonna happen. Somewhere in him is he's starting.

1392
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,319
He does seem like he's capable of flexible thinking in

1393
01:11:33,399 --> 01:11:37,680
there he's torn. There's the old Ronnie and then the

1394
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,600
Ronnie he's been for the past few years. Mmmm.

1395
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:45,279
Speaker 2: But he's not a guy that's sweating in a basement.

1396
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:48,880
I don't think that's who he. The man owns a tux,

1397
01:11:49,199 --> 01:11:50,680
he likes to go to the opera.

1398
01:11:51,159 --> 01:11:55,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, this guy owns the bakery correct, which means he

1399
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,720
doesn't have to shovel the coal. He can pay. He

1400
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:01,079
has people who work for him. He's putting himself through.

1401
01:12:01,119 --> 01:12:05,039
He's putting himself in this uncomfortable and staying and like

1402
01:12:05,119 --> 01:12:09,039
staying in that and that anger, but also in that trauma. Ye,

1403
01:12:09,399 --> 01:12:11,760
like where he got like where his hand got chewed

1404
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,960
off at was at the bakery, Like having to figure

1405
01:12:15,119 --> 01:12:18,079
that every fucking day when you go in and not

1406
01:12:18,119 --> 01:12:21,680
being able to use that hand, like is just punishing

1407
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:26,399
himself over and over and over again. Yeah, yep, And yeah,

1408
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:34,199
he and Loretta are both over identifying with their emotional experience.

1409
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,039
Speaker 2: As people do when they haven't processed it.

1410
01:12:37,319 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so then they meet each other and they

1411
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:43,359
do like just antagonize each other because probably that thing

1412
01:12:43,359 --> 01:12:45,239
where we all know of, like when you meet someone

1413
01:12:45,239 --> 01:12:47,520
and they remind you of you and it pisses you off, Yes.

1414
01:12:48,199 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 2: It happens, but it can also attract you because yeah,

1415
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,960
you see that exact right brand of antagonism to break

1416
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,439
you out of your shit and reawaken the rest of

1417
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:00,520
your soul, your.

1418
01:13:00,399 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 1: Wolf, I mean that whole wolf conversation that they had

1419
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:07,640
where then they had fucked afterwards. I was like, yes,

1420
01:13:08,199 --> 01:13:12,239
this makes sense. You're both you're both revealing different things

1421
01:13:12,239 --> 01:13:14,199
to each other about the other person.

1422
01:13:14,319 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 2: And you can see it and since it.

1423
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 1: And you can see it because you have been in

1424
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,560
a similar place it's almost like they've been waiting for

1425
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:23,000
the right person ask them the right question exactly.

1426
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:29,520
Speaker 2: She told him to take out his revenge on her face.

1427
01:13:30,239 --> 01:13:33,199
Speaker 1: Yes, she did leave nothing but skin and bones. That's

1428
01:13:33,199 --> 01:13:36,680
what she says. I love this fucking movie. I do

1429
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:38,359
know all the dialogue. Well what do you think?

1430
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:41,600
Speaker 2: So you feel like, well, yeah, will you watch it again?

1431
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:46,079
Speaker 1: I almost watch it again today, even though I'd already

1432
01:13:46,079 --> 01:13:49,880
watched it. Yeah, that's kind of like your interpretation of

1433
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:54,119
the You're a wolf, I'm a wolf? Yes. Yeah.

1434
01:13:54,399 --> 01:13:59,000
Speaker 2: Her point was that you knew that you were not okay,

1435
01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:01,520
and that where you were was terrible for you, and

1436
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:04,800
you had to escape, but you couldn't do it in

1437
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,359
a socially acceptable way. So you hurt yourself, shut off

1438
01:14:07,359 --> 01:14:12,079
your hand because you saw yourself in a trap. And

1439
01:14:12,119 --> 01:14:14,039
you're the kind of person that you know like you

1440
01:14:14,039 --> 01:14:15,960
can't say it, but you will. And like she she

1441
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:20,039
saw right through him. She's like her mom. She's like Ahna,

1442
01:14:20,239 --> 01:14:22,239
and no bullshit, don't bullshit me. Yeah.

1443
01:14:22,279 --> 01:14:26,640
Speaker 1: Loretta's very sensible. I mean, she's a bookkeeper, she's doing

1444
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:29,800
everybody else. She also, I think one of the things

1445
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:33,960
I really appreciated about the way that Olimpia Dacoacus played

1446
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:35,880
her part and share a plays they're part of that.

1447
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:37,760
They're both women who know who they are.

1448
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,399
Speaker 2: They don't They and real conversations with each.

1449
01:14:40,239 --> 01:14:42,680
Speaker 1: Other exactly, and they have real conversations and they have

1450
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,560
real conversations with other people. I think you're hitting upon.

1451
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,600
So the whole time I was watching this movie for

1452
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,600
the bajillion time, I was trying to think to myself,

1453
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,319
why does this movie feel so different than my Big

1454
01:14:54,359 --> 01:14:57,000
Fag Greek wedding, which we talked about, even though so

1455
01:14:57,079 --> 01:15:01,039
many of the pieces of it are so similar. Yes,

1456
01:15:01,159 --> 01:15:02,920
the family dynamic, and I think you just hit upon

1457
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,920
a big part of it, which is that Loretta feels

1458
01:15:06,079 --> 01:15:08,840
like her mom's peer as much as you can feel

1459
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:12,119
like a peer given their dynamic, like the traditional mother

1460
01:15:12,199 --> 01:15:17,039
daughter dynamic. Whereas in Big fact Greek wedding, there was

1461
01:15:17,079 --> 01:15:20,319
like the adults and the children. Yes, and even if

1462
01:15:20,359 --> 01:15:23,319
you were like thirty, you were still the child who

1463
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:25,319
just told what to do. Because I'll tell you this,

1464
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:27,359
they might all have an opinion about each other, but

1465
01:15:27,399 --> 01:15:29,399
nobody's really able to tell each other what to do.

1466
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,520
Like Loretta stays out all night if she wants yep,

1467
01:15:33,119 --> 01:15:36,000
and they all she's gonna hear about it for sure.

1468
01:15:36,319 --> 01:15:40,960
But she has autonomy, yes, and that she can tell

1469
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:42,439
I don't want to talk about it. Like with Rita,

1470
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:44,279
Rita go on, what's wrong, what's wrong? And she goes,

1471
01:15:44,319 --> 01:15:46,399
I want to talk about it. And I wrote that

1472
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:48,000
in my notes because like, see this is a class

1473
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:52,880
example where everyone feels like they can push back boundaries wise. Yes,

1474
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:56,039
like Loretta is basically saying, stop it, I'm not going

1475
01:15:56,079 --> 01:15:59,039
to talk about it. Yeah, leave me alone. Yeah, and eventually,

1476
01:15:59,199 --> 01:16:01,039
I mean Rita does have to be told the three times,

1477
01:16:01,039 --> 01:16:03,880
but she relents, and Laura leaves and and Rita didn't

1478
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:06,239
go like call her mom Rose and was like I

1479
01:16:06,319 --> 01:16:09,239
just saw Loretta and she just all wounds up, like

1480
01:16:09,239 --> 01:16:14,600
what's wrong. Yeah, there is this autonomy there and respect, yes,

1481
01:16:15,159 --> 01:16:16,960
that we did not see in my big freang grey

1482
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:25,239
wedding about everyone's importance and power, like even like Roses

1483
01:16:25,279 --> 01:16:29,000
in Cosmo's fucking neck, she's on Cosmo's neck. Yes, she

1484
01:16:29,159 --> 01:16:32,640
is as she should be. And yeah, and so if

1485
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:33,159
you think you're.

1486
01:16:33,079 --> 01:16:35,520
Speaker 2: Going to have a successful marriage with an Italian woman

1487
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:37,319
and she's going to be the neck of your family,

1488
01:16:37,359 --> 01:16:41,079
turning the head, you are making mistakes.

1489
01:16:41,159 --> 01:16:43,319
Speaker 1: I was thinking about that when I was watching it yesterday.

1490
01:16:43,319 --> 01:16:44,479
I was like, wow, I was like, this is a

1491
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:48,239
really good example of it not being like that at all. Yes,

1492
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:50,920
this film and the way that and again just the

1493
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,560
way that they know who they are and they respect

1494
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,920
each other, and there isn't this like fantastical idea of

1495
01:16:58,239 --> 01:17:00,560
a man is going to make all your problems go away,

1496
01:17:01,119 --> 01:17:04,720
even though the even though the idea of having to

1497
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:08,199
be married and having to have children is still very

1498
01:17:08,279 --> 01:17:12,560
much there, they just respect each other so much more.

1499
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:14,760
It makes it so much more palatable. And also that

1500
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:16,319
Loretta can still do what she wants.

1501
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're going to tell you the truth, but you

1502
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:21,039
know they're going to be on your team. Yeah, you

1503
01:17:21,079 --> 01:17:23,159
guys have met my wife and hung out with her.

1504
01:17:23,199 --> 01:17:26,000
You know, do you think that she is any neck

1505
01:17:26,079 --> 01:17:28,359
turning the head of like that I am the head

1506
01:17:28,399 --> 01:17:30,000
of the family and she is a neck turning No,

1507
01:17:30,159 --> 01:17:31,800
definitely not. That's not the case.

1508
01:17:32,079 --> 01:17:32,239
Speaker 1: No.

1509
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:36,520
Speaker 2: We we are equals and decide things together. But also

1510
01:17:37,079 --> 01:17:39,800
if I think I'm going to make any decisions without her,

1511
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:40,920
I got another thing coming.

1512
01:17:41,039 --> 01:17:44,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there's no, that's not greasing the wheel, so

1513
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:46,960
that Cosmo thinks that something's his idea.

1514
01:17:47,159 --> 01:17:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they all know.

1515
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:51,159
Speaker 1: They think of a fuck if that Cosmitics is Ietea

1516
01:17:51,239 --> 01:17:55,119
or not. Cosmo is a part of the council making decisions,

1517
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:58,840
but he's not the king. No, this family, if nothing else,

1518
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:01,239
has a queen. Yeah. And like with Loretta, Yeah, she

1519
01:18:01,319 --> 01:18:03,640
knows who she is. She just got her life her

1520
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:07,600
like light snuffed out. Yeah. Absolutely, and yeah, And probably

1521
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:10,840
part of that too, is because her parents do seem

1522
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:13,239
like they're they're willing to let her be whoever she

1523
01:18:13,319 --> 01:18:16,840
needs to be as a widow. Yes, Like even when

1524
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:19,399
she tells them, I'm getting married to Johnny, They're like, ugh,

1525
01:18:21,039 --> 01:18:23,319
really are you? Like, I think they would have been

1526
01:18:23,359 --> 01:18:25,960
happy for her to like not, I mean, of course

1527
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:28,399
they probably would want her to be fine love, but

1528
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:31,039
I think they also would have been okay with her

1529
01:18:31,159 --> 01:18:34,880
just living with them forever yeah, until they died. Yeah,

1530
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:37,399
And it didn't seem like there was any pressure coming

1531
01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:41,880
from them exactly about like get find another husband, get married.

1532
01:18:42,079 --> 01:18:44,560
They actually seem to be actively discouraged her and almost

1533
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:48,880
too much, like of like, you're doing this again, She's like, oh,

1534
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:49,239
come on.

1535
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,600
Speaker 2: I mean they also are clocking her to use the

1536
01:18:54,600 --> 01:18:56,800
word of the day. They're clocking her behavior and they know.

1537
01:18:57,039 --> 01:19:00,000
My mom asks her at first, I mean it was Hilaire,

1538
01:19:00,079 --> 01:19:01,920
I said. They all said the same thing because also

1539
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:07,680
on point. But the again, do you love him? And

1540
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:11,159
she says no, yeah, and the moms, I mean the

1541
01:19:11,199 --> 01:19:14,359
bomb is dumping her ship early on there and playing

1542
01:19:14,359 --> 01:19:16,600
her hand like good because people that love you will

1543
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:16,960
hurt you.

1544
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's she's in her own feelings about this.

1545
01:19:20,079 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 2: She's sure situation, sure is which because she already knows yeah.

1546
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:28,479
But the the reality there also is that she knows

1547
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:30,199
that her daughter does not love this man.

1548
01:19:31,079 --> 01:19:36,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, she does, and she knows her daughter looks like Share. Yeah.

1549
01:19:36,239 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 2: Even though they played her down, she.

1550
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,319
Speaker 1: Doesn't maybe why, which is maybe why Share got an

1551
01:19:42,319 --> 01:19:45,359
oscar for this movie, because she does a good job

1552
01:19:45,359 --> 01:19:48,279
of holding herself differently, even though my mind is like

1553
01:19:48,319 --> 01:19:50,279
that Share the whole time. When she comes out of

1554
01:19:50,279 --> 01:19:54,359
that beauty slot, I'm like, oh, that's Share, Yeah, which

1555
01:19:54,399 --> 01:19:56,199
puts that lipstick on. When I was younger and I

1556
01:19:56,239 --> 01:19:59,239
watched this movie, I couldn't get over how easily she

1557
01:19:59,279 --> 01:20:02,640
could put her lips stick on without touching it up. Yes,

1558
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:04,840
I've gotten better at it as I've gotten older, getting

1559
01:20:04,840 --> 01:20:07,479
my ten thousand hours great at it. But the sameless thing,

1560
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:09,680
I was like, Wow, that's a woman. Was young, Yes,

1561
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:12,439
that's a woman. She has her presence like even her

1562
01:20:12,479 --> 01:20:14,560
the scene, the classic scene where she's kicking the can

1563
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:18,800
down the street. Yes, she has allowed herself to be

1564
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:22,720
herself fully again and to have hoped, which is very

1565
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:28,359
different than Cosmo or Perry, who are trying to perform youth. Yes.

1566
01:20:29,199 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1567
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:31,640
Speaker 1: And then she comes home and her mom is like,

1568
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:33,960
what's going on with this? She's like, everything's different, Mom,

1569
01:20:34,039 --> 01:20:39,039
everything's different. She just shook off the rest of her

1570
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:43,479
grief on that walk back. I can have something that's different.

1571
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:45,079
Speaker 2: Yeah. That was not a walk of shame, now, was

1572
01:20:45,119 --> 01:20:47,239
it it? Yes, was not great time.

1573
01:20:47,359 --> 01:20:50,960
Speaker 1: But also going to the opera and crying, she let

1574
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:55,359
herself feel, yes fully what she was doing with Ronnie,

1575
01:20:55,520 --> 01:21:00,840
she was opening up her feelings again. She's giving in fighting.

1576
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,000
It's still along the way, slapping in the face a

1577
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:06,399
couple times, a couple times, not out of it. She's

1578
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:10,319
trying to ignore the fact that she's still a vivacious person. Yes,

1579
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:13,359
until she can't anymore. And that's different than I'm trying

1580
01:21:13,359 --> 01:21:15,279
to chase a young version of myself.

1581
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:19,000
Speaker 2: It's the same thing. It's just the foil. I'm trying

1582
01:21:19,079 --> 01:21:21,960
to keep it shut down, Yeah, so that I don't

1583
01:21:22,039 --> 01:21:25,359
get hurt by letting it out, because the last time

1584
01:21:25,399 --> 01:21:29,199
I let myself believe and hope, I got hurt. It's

1585
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:31,760
the way people are. It's not just that we go

1586
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:33,880
out and do the dumb shit to do it. It's

1587
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:36,960
that we protect ourselves from getting hurt because we view

1588
01:21:37,079 --> 01:21:40,520
that as equally as dumb as the dad going out

1589
01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:43,720
chasing the other woman. It's two sides of the same coin.

1590
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,960
People are seeking to meet their needs in the best

1591
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:49,560
ways they have available. They always do.

1592
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:54,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like we're saying, Ronnie is yeah very I'm

1593
01:21:54,319 --> 01:21:57,479
like really impressed with you looking them together like that, Hannah. Yeah,

1594
01:21:57,520 --> 01:21:59,279
I don't know why I didn't see that before, but yeah,

1595
01:21:59,359 --> 01:22:01,159
Ronnie is doing the same thing where he's doing the

1596
01:22:01,199 --> 01:22:04,560
anger thing. Also is a protective thing, yes, because clearly

1597
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:08,960
he is a love sick romantic. Absolutely, he wants to

1598
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:10,840
go to the opera. I want to take two things

1599
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:12,840
I love. I want to take you to the opera.

1600
01:22:13,159 --> 01:22:15,239
Like you said, he owns a tux, he listens to

1601
01:22:15,359 --> 01:22:19,279
music on his record player. He is a romantic who's

1602
01:22:19,319 --> 01:22:22,800
trying to act like he's a angry maniac. Yes, and

1603
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:25,760
that also deters other people from getting close to him.

1604
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:27,479
So it's also another way, like, so, yeah, there are

1605
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:32,159
two people pushing people away with this stereotype of themselves,

1606
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:34,199
and then they find each other and they can't do

1607
01:22:34,239 --> 01:22:34,760
it anymore.

1608
01:22:35,079 --> 01:22:38,800
Speaker 2: Yes, because that woman who is in the store that

1609
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:44,159
he owns is deeply in love with him. Yeah, and

1610
01:22:44,199 --> 01:22:47,920
he likely and I mean she flat says he doesn't

1611
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:48,319
even know.

1612
01:22:48,439 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. She kind of seems like she's in

1613
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:53,600
love with this toxic version of him, the character he's playing,

1614
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:58,159
this troubled bad boy, beast beauty the beast type guy. Sure,

1615
01:22:58,359 --> 01:23:00,560
I don't know if she would like the real version

1616
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:01,840
of him. Yeah.

1617
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:03,640
Speaker 2: He also clearly has been in the gym.

1618
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:05,680
Speaker 1: I mean, he looks good.

1619
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:06,640
Speaker 2: Dude's shredded.

1620
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:09,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I feel like there's something romantic about the

1621
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:11,520
way that he's acting in the beginning of the movie

1622
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:14,039
that if you were a young person, a young girl, teenager,

1623
01:23:14,119 --> 01:23:16,560
young woman, you'd be like, oh my god, he's so torn,

1624
01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:18,439
Like that's that's what she likes. About him right, like

1625
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:21,560
she's like, ah, I love this tormented man, isn't that

1626
01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:25,399
what She's like? Oh? I would never if Kyler ren

1627
01:23:25,479 --> 01:23:28,600
existed in real life. You best believe I would not

1628
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:32,159
be getting involved a grown man who just bashes things

1629
01:23:32,199 --> 01:23:36,399
into the wall like a crazy person. No, no, so

1630
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:38,640
like a real life Ronnie. I'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah,

1631
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:41,880
that's what I mean. It's very romantic in in this

1632
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:43,680
very specific way that's not real life.

1633
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:47,399
Speaker 2: Yes, not real life, No, it's not. But he's Yeah,

1634
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:49,880
he's absolutely doing the same thing that she is, just

1635
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:56,159
in the male centric way, especially younger male way of

1636
01:23:56,199 --> 01:24:00,319
being mad. I'm so angry. Just don't love me because

1637
01:24:00,399 --> 01:24:03,079
I'm gonna kill myself at any second because I just

1638
01:24:03,159 --> 01:24:06,279
can't stand my life anymore. And why can't anybody see that?

1639
01:24:06,359 --> 01:24:09,279
My life is fucking terrible? But really, what everyone wants

1640
01:24:09,279 --> 01:24:11,399
to put on a tux and look pretty and go

1641
01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:12,039
to the opera.

1642
01:24:12,119 --> 01:24:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, because as soon as he's into her, all that

1643
01:24:16,359 --> 01:24:19,439
stuff falls away. He's very chill with her. Yeah, he's

1644
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:22,600
very romantic with her. There's several moments when he could

1645
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:24,640
get wound up with her, and he doesn't really, he

1646
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:26,399
doesn't act like he does in that bakery.

1647
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:32,439
Speaker 2: No, And I think the whole foreshadowing of the scene

1648
01:24:32,479 --> 01:24:36,439
shop truck and the opera right at the beginning is

1649
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:42,000
showing us to remember that with a transformational experience that

1650
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:47,560
transcendentally takes us out of our own experience and allows

1651
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:52,000
us to experience the emotions of characters echoing real human experience,

1652
01:24:52,359 --> 01:24:56,800
we can bypass that shit that keeps you stuck and

1653
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,600
allows you to connect to the real feelings with a

1654
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:03,920
different mechanism of release that allows you to safely confront it,

1655
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:07,359
which is exactly what happened for both of them at

1656
01:25:07,359 --> 01:25:10,079
that opera show, And the movie showed us that that

1657
01:25:10,199 --> 01:25:12,039
was what was going to happen, that it was not

1658
01:25:12,159 --> 01:25:16,479
an accident. We see the grandeur of the opera being

1659
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,279
prepped for and all that it takes to create that

1660
01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:23,800
kind of magical experience where you face that kind of

1661
01:25:24,119 --> 01:25:28,880
beauty and carefully crafted experience to take you away from

1662
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:32,439
your shit and stand in the life of that character,

1663
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:35,279
realizing that every story is a human story.

1664
01:25:35,359 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 1: Well, on that note, should take a break here and

1665
01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:39,520
be back with treatment. Yes, all right, Hannah, do you

1666
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:43,039
want to go first? Charocle first? So I was thinking

1667
01:25:43,079 --> 01:25:49,000
about doing therapy with Cosmo and Rose. I don't know

1668
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:56,239
if they need it. What I will talk about is

1669
01:25:56,279 --> 01:25:58,479
what it's like to help a couple who who is

1670
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:01,560
experience in infidelity. I think maybe I don't know if

1671
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:03,840
it's because of their age, or because of their culture,

1672
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:05,920
or because of whatever, because of the magic of the

1673
01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,960
movie in general, but the way that it's handled at

1674
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:13,079
the table makes me really think that I'm not saying

1675
01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:17,520
they wouldn't benefit from some reconnecting experiences in therapy, having

1676
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:20,119
them do things in session with me, so they could

1677
01:26:20,199 --> 01:26:23,239
kind of be in a different setting and experience each

1678
01:26:23,279 --> 01:26:24,800
other in a little bit different way. I think that

1679
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:26,800
would be helpful, but I don't know that that they

1680
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:30,079
would need to come to me. So what I will

1681
01:26:30,119 --> 01:26:34,199
talk about though, is what needs to happen when a couple.

1682
01:26:34,439 --> 01:26:38,119
When a couple comes to you and somebody has had

1683
01:26:38,119 --> 01:26:41,359
an affair, they are aware that the affair has happened

1684
01:26:41,359 --> 01:26:44,159
both people, and they come in and they want to

1685
01:26:44,199 --> 01:26:46,800
work on their relationship. And so a big part of

1686
01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:53,640
helping both partners is first by allowing the partner who

1687
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:57,039
experienced betrayal to be seen and heard for their thoughts

1688
01:26:57,039 --> 01:27:00,479
and feelings of what they experience. Also for or the

1689
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:03,439
partner who experience betrayal, that they are also able to

1690
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:06,880
ask for anything that they might need to help to

1691
01:27:07,079 --> 01:27:10,800
encourage trust in one way or another. And yes, it

1692
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:12,840
may take time, And I don't mean it's going to

1693
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:15,560
take two weeks. I mean it's going to take some

1694
01:27:16,199 --> 01:27:21,079
fucking time. Yeah, because a trust has been broken, and

1695
01:27:21,399 --> 01:27:25,680
people who are the person who was betrayed, they often

1696
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:30,079
experience PTSD like symptoms when they found out a partner

1697
01:27:30,079 --> 01:27:35,760
has had an affair. They can have nightmares, they can

1698
01:27:35,880 --> 01:27:39,479
have flashbacks even to times in their life where they've

1699
01:27:39,479 --> 01:27:41,760
asked their partner questions about what they were doing or

1700
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:43,760
what was going on and they were lied to. They

1701
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,680
can have all different kinds of experiences that has to

1702
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:51,800
be treated and acknowledged in order for you to get

1703
01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:53,720
to the part where you start to actually work on

1704
01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:54,840
the relationship. I know.

1705
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:58,279
Speaker 2: A fun fact about that exact statement is the EMDR

1706
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:03,640
trauma protocol or when that has happened, requires both people

1707
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:08,079
to be in the room. Oh. When you do, the

1708
01:28:08,199 --> 01:28:11,479
EMDR work to pop the bubble of the emotion that's

1709
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:14,880
been hiding so that the pain can be seen and

1710
01:28:15,119 --> 01:28:17,520
felt by the person that caused it.

1711
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:19,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

1712
01:28:19,199 --> 01:28:22,239
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about some damn Yeah. I have

1713
01:28:22,359 --> 01:28:25,800
not ventured down that path, but I read that shit

1714
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,319
and went, oh, damn yeah, we're gonna bust that right

1715
01:28:29,399 --> 01:28:30,199
open now, aren't we.

1716
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:33,479
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And even if you listen to somebody like Esther

1717
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:37,399
Pirell talk about working with couples, she talks about something

1718
01:28:37,560 --> 01:28:40,199
very similar when she's working with infidelity. A lot of

1719
01:28:40,279 --> 01:28:44,279
times the partner who has stepped out wants there to

1720
01:28:44,359 --> 01:28:47,279
be an end in sight so when their partner will

1721
01:28:47,279 --> 01:28:49,439
trust them again for when things can go back to

1722
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:54,680
quote unquote normal, they're often searching for that, and that

1723
01:28:54,800 --> 01:28:57,079
has to be something that has to be off the table,

1724
01:28:57,520 --> 01:29:00,680
and you have to really experience what is your partner feeling,

1725
01:29:01,039 --> 01:29:02,960
what is your partner looking at? What is your partner

1726
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:06,399
thinking about every fucking day because you've been cheating on

1727
01:29:06,439 --> 01:29:08,560
them for god knows how long, Because no matter if

1728
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:10,680
it's a year or six months, or ten days or

1729
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,640
twelve days, it's the same fucking betrayal, and a partner

1730
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:15,279
will feel like the rug has been pulled out from

1731
01:29:15,359 --> 01:29:18,000
underneath them, and so that really has to be addressed.

1732
01:29:18,279 --> 01:29:22,560
I also would definitely recommend that both people seek individual

1733
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:28,600
counseling as well, because, like we've discussed with Cosmo, he

1734
01:29:29,039 --> 01:29:32,760
is stepping out because of his own shit. Very rarely

1735
01:29:33,399 --> 01:29:36,760
is it because of something that their partner did. Almost

1736
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:40,439
always has something to do with something they've experienced, something

1737
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:43,319
they've gone through, or something they're looking for or trying

1738
01:29:43,359 --> 01:29:46,279
to find because they're not satisfied with some fucking part

1739
01:29:46,319 --> 01:29:51,119
of their life. So after we help the symptoms of

1740
01:29:51,159 --> 01:29:54,880
the partner who has been betrayed decrease, then I can

1741
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:59,840
start doing some very small trust things in session, something

1742
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,560
as simple as I'm going to give you directions and

1743
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:04,600
you the pen and paper, and I want you to

1744
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:07,319
write down what the purseon, what you're hearing the person

1745
01:30:07,359 --> 01:30:10,279
say in terms of like drawing a square or something,

1746
01:30:10,399 --> 01:30:12,880
and that can help them build a little bit of trust,

1747
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:15,039
remember what it's like to have to rely on each

1748
01:30:15,039 --> 01:30:17,359
other in a little bit different way to just start

1749
01:30:17,399 --> 01:30:19,479
to get the ball rolling just a little bit. But

1750
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:22,359
it's a lot of work. And what I can tell you,

1751
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:25,840
people can come out of therapy after having an affair

1752
01:30:26,079 --> 01:30:28,800
and have a much more loving and a much more

1753
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:32,920
connected relationship than they had before. If they're really willing

1754
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,399
to do the work and to take the time that

1755
01:30:35,439 --> 01:30:37,960
it takes to heal because it is possible. And also

1756
01:30:38,039 --> 01:30:40,960
for some other people that's not possible. That's not what

1757
01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:42,800
they want, and they want to leave their partner. That's

1758
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:45,520
okay too, There's nothing wrong with that. All I'm saying

1759
01:30:45,560 --> 01:30:46,960
is that when if you're going to come in and

1760
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:49,000
you're going to do the work, that's the work that

1761
01:30:49,079 --> 01:30:49,720
has to be done.

1762
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:53,960
Speaker 2: Hurt people want to know two things and two things only. Yeah.

1763
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:58,159
Thing one that my pain is understood, full stop, and

1764
01:30:58,199 --> 01:31:01,920
you need to understand it to their satisfaction, not yours.

1765
01:31:02,159 --> 01:31:06,760
Thing two, whatever's hurting them is going to stop. That's it.

1766
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:09,399
It's really simple. But if you think you're going to

1767
01:31:09,399 --> 01:31:13,079
skip through that part one, you will be stuck because

1768
01:31:13,119 --> 01:31:16,720
they will be stuck not able to deactivate their pain,

1769
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:19,159
and they will not trust you. And there is no

1770
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:23,560
back to anything you killed that. Yeah, that is dead.

1771
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:28,800
It must be grieved and buried because you have a

1772
01:31:28,920 --> 01:31:31,840
new reality now where one of you stepped out or

1773
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:36,600
both and violated the trust. Whatever existed before that is gone.

1774
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:38,720
Have you ever forgotten any bad thing that ever happened

1775
01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:42,840
in your life? No, neither of the not real.

1776
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:45,880
Speaker 1: That also brings me to doing couple's therapy with Loretta

1777
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:49,399
and Ronnie, because I'm gonna tell you right now, they

1778
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:54,159
are experiencing when people have an affair. There is excitement,

1779
01:31:55,199 --> 01:32:00,399
there is intrigue. Sometimes there is the mystery part of

1780
01:32:00,399 --> 01:32:03,279
all of it. And they will have to and I'm

1781
01:32:03,279 --> 01:32:04,880
not saying that they'll have a hard time with this,

1782
01:32:05,199 --> 01:32:08,479
but they will need to have some support around building

1783
01:32:08,479 --> 01:32:13,119
a relationship that's based more on how they feel on

1784
01:32:13,159 --> 01:32:16,640
an everyday basis than in these big passionate moments that

1785
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:20,119
they experience all the time. Yeah, because when you've met

1786
01:32:20,319 --> 01:32:22,760
in a relationship where one of you is stepping out

1787
01:32:22,840 --> 01:32:25,760
at another relationship, you have to do some work in

1788
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:28,319
order to build trust to make sure that that's going

1789
01:32:28,399 --> 01:32:32,159
to work for both of you. All right, And that's it. Well,

1790
01:32:32,159 --> 01:32:34,880
since it is behind the scenes, it's twelve forty three

1791
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:36,840
am on a Sunday night, So I'm going to keep

1792
01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:38,920
this very brief in that I would work with Loretta

1793
01:32:39,119 --> 01:32:42,119
just because, like I said earlier, she still has grief

1794
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:47,520
and trauma within her, and so with Ronnie, especially because

1795
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:49,359
she loves him so much. If it continues on the

1796
01:32:49,399 --> 01:32:52,840
trajectory of this, I could imagine that some of her

1797
01:32:53,199 --> 01:32:57,000
superstitious anxiety might come back up and maybe even get

1798
01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:00,000
worse because she loves ron If she keeps loving Ronnie

1799
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:02,199
so much, I think it's going to activate some of

1800
01:33:02,199 --> 01:33:05,520
that for her. And so she's someone that I think

1801
01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:08,680
would need to do some maybe trauma work around that

1802
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:11,159
experience of losing her husband, probably for the first time

1803
01:33:11,279 --> 01:33:13,720
doing that work, because I assume she hasn't done it yet.

1804
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:16,720
She's someone that I might even recommend to do AMDR

1805
01:33:16,960 --> 01:33:19,479
while she's working with me if there are like stuck

1806
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:23,079
points from that time in her life when she lost

1807
01:33:23,119 --> 01:33:25,279
her first husband. And she's someone that we would just

1808
01:33:25,319 --> 01:33:27,199
have to do a lot of work around. How are you.

1809
01:33:27,359 --> 01:33:30,000
It's very basic stuff, trauma and form CBT kind of stuff.

1810
01:33:30,319 --> 01:33:33,159
How are you feeling? Why do you want to do that?

1811
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:35,760
Why are you? I would be worried that she would

1812
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:39,119
cross in a maybe even like OCD territory with a superstition,

1813
01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:41,960
and so she's someone that would just need higher awareness

1814
01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:46,119
of when she's feeling anxious, challenging that anxiety, and having

1815
01:33:46,279 --> 01:33:50,079
replacement coping skills for that anxiety. If she's engaging in

1816
01:33:50,119 --> 01:33:52,760
the superstitious stuff you could argue is reassurance seeking behavior.

1817
01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:54,279
I want to do the Sign of the Cross, I'm

1818
01:33:54,279 --> 01:33:56,880
gonna get married at church. It's all stuff that we

1819
01:33:56,920 --> 01:34:00,920
can do to reassure ourselves, and the problem with it

1820
01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:03,399
is that it doesn't last. So you have to keep

1821
01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:07,920
doing that stuff because the underlying anxiety is not being treated.

1822
01:34:08,239 --> 01:34:10,359
And so she's someone that would just have to really

1823
01:34:10,439 --> 01:34:12,800
get her hands around that in therapy so that she

1824
01:34:12,920 --> 01:34:16,039
doesn't start doing stuff within her relationship with Ronnie that

1825
01:34:16,119 --> 01:34:19,920
actually might impact the relationship or just make her miserable. Still,

1826
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:21,800
I'm not feeling better even though I'm with him. Actually

1827
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:25,000
I'm feeling even worse. I'm feeling really freaked out. Yeah,

1828
01:34:25,039 --> 01:34:26,880
and so she I would think she would need therapy

1829
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:28,880
to work on that freaked out and she's gonna probably

1830
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,399
feel So that's what I would do, Benjamin.

1831
01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:36,520
Speaker 2: I would work with Ronnie as much as I think

1832
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:40,279
Johnny probably needs the most therapy. I also don't think

1833
01:34:40,399 --> 01:34:43,800
I'm the therapist for him, So I would pick Ronnie

1834
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:47,479
because usually the types of cases I do best with

1835
01:34:47,800 --> 01:34:52,279
are the people that have the biggest, darkest things that

1836
01:34:52,319 --> 01:34:56,239
they are keeping from themselves, but they're so desperately wanting

1837
01:34:56,279 --> 01:35:00,319
to release that it doesn't take all that much convincing. More,

1838
01:35:00,399 --> 01:35:04,239
what it takes is some guidance and some normalization of

1839
01:35:04,239 --> 01:35:06,800
that so that out it comes, but in a healthy way.

1840
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:09,279
And I think when I look at Ronnie, he's exactly

1841
01:35:09,319 --> 01:35:11,960
the type of client that I usually do pretty well

1842
01:35:12,039 --> 01:35:15,920
with because you can speak his language. Right now, Johnny's

1843
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:18,119
gonna need quite a bit of time.

1844
01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:21,279
Speaker 1: Johnny doesn't need a therapist. He has his mother.

1845
01:35:23,079 --> 01:35:25,680
Speaker 2: And he may not even do well with a male therapist.

1846
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:28,399
But I think Ronnie, on the other hand, would really

1847
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:34,239
benefit from having someone to help further process the heat

1848
01:35:34,319 --> 01:35:39,000
seeking missile of comments that Loretta dropped on him. That

1849
01:35:39,159 --> 01:35:41,840
cut your bullshit. You did it to yourself because you

1850
01:35:41,840 --> 01:35:43,760
were stuck and you knew it, but you couldn't let

1851
01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:46,760
yourself out in a way that was socially acceptable to you.

1852
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:49,520
Like I said earlier, you had to do something, and

1853
01:35:49,560 --> 01:35:51,479
that was the only way you saw out. It wasn't

1854
01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:53,399
just that one thing. You need it out of your

1855
01:35:53,399 --> 01:35:56,279
family system. You needed out of that bad relationship, and

1856
01:35:56,319 --> 01:35:58,399
you needed something bad to happen to you. Nobody just

1857
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:01,199
leaves you because you damage your hand. It's ridiculous. They

1858
01:36:01,279 --> 01:36:03,720
might leave you because you're a raging ass bag about

1859
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:05,720
it because what you really wanted was to get out

1860
01:36:05,720 --> 01:36:07,319
and you didn't see a sensible way to do it,

1861
01:36:07,359 --> 01:36:09,520
so you hurt yourself. Well that's the kind of heat

1862
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:11,680
seeking missile of a therapist. I am. I might not

1863
01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:14,920
come to you that hard, but I believe that popping

1864
01:36:14,960 --> 01:36:18,720
that bubble of bullshit we keep around ourselves like no,

1865
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:21,119
it was everybody else's fault, like the fuck it was.

1866
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:24,319
I think we sometimes need that, but that to be

1867
01:36:24,399 --> 01:36:27,920
done by a trained clinical professional that knows people don't

1868
01:36:27,920 --> 01:36:30,399
do well when you just pop their bubble with no

1869
01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:33,520
off rahim. If you just go like, stop your bullshit,

1870
01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:35,399
well you're going to meet their fight part real fast,

1871
01:36:36,399 --> 01:36:38,520
or they're going to retreat even harder into their behavior

1872
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:41,359
because fuck you, or they're going to activate even more

1873
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:44,880
need to escape. So I think looking at somebody like

1874
01:36:45,039 --> 01:36:49,159
Ronnie who's going to absolutely not be just okay because

1875
01:36:49,199 --> 01:36:51,319
he got the love of his life, they're going to

1876
01:36:51,399 --> 01:36:56,000
be so many things that he's been hiding from himself

1877
01:36:56,079 --> 01:36:58,960
four years that need to be processed and need to

1878
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:02,319
be done so in a way that simultaneously pops that

1879
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:04,920
bubble and calls him on his shit, while also providing

1880
01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:10,840
him with a safety net that he can process safely, calmly,

1881
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:13,239
and learn to reregulate himself so he doesn't just become

1882
01:37:13,439 --> 01:37:15,640
fucking hulk is what he's going to need. And I

1883
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:19,239
think working with him through whether it's I guess, CPT

1884
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:23,319
cognitive processing kind of model that doesn't necessarily require him

1885
01:37:23,359 --> 01:37:26,039
to talk about all of the things about losing his hand,

1886
01:37:26,079 --> 01:37:30,159
but does require him to reframe the broken mindsets that

1887
01:37:30,239 --> 01:37:33,199
have come from all that he's been through and all

1888
01:37:33,239 --> 01:37:35,960
of this psychological armor he's created around it when the

1889
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:38,159
truth is you were hurt and you need to start

1890
01:37:38,199 --> 01:37:40,479
reframing this idea that you're hurt and will always be

1891
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:43,760
hurt and broken. Or it's something like EMDR that works

1892
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:47,800
with defanging the worst moments of life and helping you

1893
01:37:47,840 --> 01:37:50,640
realize that, yes, they were scary then, but they don't

1894
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:53,199
have to be scary now for you to know what

1895
01:37:53,359 --> 01:37:57,079
to do to survive anything similar in the future. You

1896
01:37:57,119 --> 01:38:01,479
can let go of the hurt because your body already

1897
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:04,000
learned all it needed to. But working with him in

1898
01:38:04,039 --> 01:38:06,560
some kind of trauma informed way to help him through

1899
01:38:06,560 --> 01:38:08,880
that so that he and Florreta can have the life

1900
01:38:08,920 --> 01:38:11,840
that seems to be in front of them, but the

1901
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:15,439
pathway in reality would not be so smooth as well.

1902
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:19,039
You just immediately like took your brother's fiance and had

1903
01:38:19,159 --> 01:38:22,560
sex with her twice while he was gone preparing for

1904
01:38:22,600 --> 01:38:25,399
the death of your mother. Yeah, that's not gonna go great, Johnny.

1905
01:38:25,399 --> 01:38:28,840
Maybe a little bitch, but there's some issues here, So

1906
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:29,720
that's what I would do.

1907
01:38:30,399 --> 01:38:32,720
Speaker 1: All right. Well, let's take our last break carey back

1908
01:38:32,720 --> 01:38:37,239
with final thoughts. Let's called perverse what we just did. Benjamin,

1909
01:38:37,760 --> 01:38:39,079
this is your first time seeing.

1910
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:41,720
Speaker 2: It, at least the whole thing I've seen. I've seen

1911
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:48,319
multiple clips, and funny enough, my father would routinely name

1912
01:38:48,359 --> 01:38:51,119
this as one of his favorite movies. Oh now that's

1913
01:38:51,159 --> 01:38:54,039
probably because Cher does the big glow up and he's

1914
01:38:54,039 --> 01:38:57,600
the way he is. But the movie itself is it's

1915
01:38:57,640 --> 01:38:59,840
really good. It's a it's a really good movie. And

1916
01:39:00,159 --> 01:39:02,159
I know I message you guys right in it. But

1917
01:39:02,479 --> 01:39:04,880
I have a phrase from being married to an Italian

1918
01:39:04,920 --> 01:39:08,199
wife that I joke about is having an Italian wife

1919
01:39:08,279 --> 01:39:10,520
is really good for your head size. And then it

1920
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:12,880
they make sure it doesn't get too big and bad

1921
01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:16,520
for your waist size as they feed you, and they

1922
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:18,000
don't care if that gets too big because it keeps

1923
01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:19,760
you around. Well. I love my wife dearly and for

1924
01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:21,680
all that she is, and the way that she does

1925
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:23,800
keep my head in check is much needed, and it

1926
01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:26,239
is probably why we found each other. Much like these

1927
01:39:26,279 --> 01:39:31,680
two clowns, but they speak a similar language, and you know,

1928
01:39:32,000 --> 01:39:34,880
my wife and I can both keep each other in

1929
01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:38,079
check and say things directly to each other, which we needed,

1930
01:39:38,119 --> 01:39:40,520
and people that were a little more delicate probably wouldn't

1931
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:44,199
survive either of us. And haven't this movie really nails

1932
01:39:44,199 --> 01:39:47,119
some of these cultural things. You know, I've been part

1933
01:39:47,119 --> 01:39:50,199
of an Italian family for what sixteen seventeen years now,

1934
01:39:50,279 --> 01:39:54,600
Like god damn, they just fucking nailed it in many ways.

1935
01:39:55,039 --> 01:39:59,640
But it's also it's a classic script. This movie could

1936
01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:03,600
be put in any time period and fit. Yeah, totally

1937
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:05,840
just changed the setting, changed the clothes. It's still going

1938
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:08,359
to fit. This story will fit, and it's classic. And

1939
01:40:09,039 --> 01:40:11,880
the oscars were well earned and deserved. The only question

1940
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:15,960
I have is where was Nick Cage's because I think

1941
01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:19,359
he probably deserved one for this performance here, not the

1942
01:40:19,399 --> 01:40:23,640
share and Olympiadacacus didn't because they absolutely did their their

1943
01:40:23,640 --> 01:40:27,239
facial acting and transforming and showing the things that weren't

1944
01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:31,279
they were phenomenal. But the movie's great. It's incredibly well done,

1945
01:40:31,279 --> 01:40:33,199
and I like this one. I think it will hold

1946
01:40:33,279 --> 01:40:35,640
up to time much better than my big fact gory

1947
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:37,560
wedding that we did that kind of it's a similar vein,

1948
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:38,920
but I don't think that's going to hold up the

1949
01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:40,760
time as well as this does not even close.

1950
01:40:41,199 --> 01:40:45,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love this movie. I've seen it many times.

1951
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:48,479
After I watched my Big Fact Grey wedding with Hannah

1952
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:53,079
for Arvana's episode, we did a spiritual cleanse by watching

1953
01:40:53,119 --> 01:40:56,560
Moonstruck immediately afterwards, even though we knew we were going

1954
01:40:56,640 --> 01:41:00,560
to be watching it again for this recording right now.

1955
01:41:01,479 --> 01:41:04,399
And so I love Moonstruck. I'll watch a million more times.

1956
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:07,159
It does reaffirm what I said in the Big Fat

1957
01:41:07,199 --> 01:41:09,520
Greek Wedding episode, which is that if you are close

1958
01:41:09,560 --> 01:41:12,720
to your family and it makes you feel good and

1959
01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:16,720
it feels like a part of your support system, then

1960
01:41:17,079 --> 01:41:19,079
I don't care how close you are to your family

1961
01:41:19,199 --> 01:41:21,199
as long as it feels like a positive thing for you.

1962
01:41:21,239 --> 01:41:23,279
And I think this is a good example of They

1963
01:41:23,319 --> 01:41:25,479
are very close to each other. There are up each

1964
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:28,439
other's butts, but it seems to work for all of them,

1965
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:30,560
and it seems to make them all feel good and happy.

1966
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:32,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't see it support it.

1967
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:34,920
Speaker 1: Like at the very end of the movie, she says, Johnny,

1968
01:41:34,920 --> 01:41:36,680
I want my family around me, so I just want

1969
01:41:36,720 --> 01:41:39,399
to make the distinction, Like you know, my favorite big

1970
01:41:39,439 --> 01:41:41,720
fat Greek wedding. It's not the closest of the family

1971
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:44,159
that's the problem. It's the way they treat each other

1972
01:41:44,199 --> 01:41:46,680
as the problem. And this movie is such a good

1973
01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:50,640
juxposition to that one in terms of like, very similar idea,

1974
01:41:51,399 --> 01:41:54,239
but execute it a lot, a lot healthier. Even though

1975
01:41:54,279 --> 01:41:56,039
in a lot of ways you'd say this family's more.

1976
01:41:56,119 --> 01:41:57,600
I don't know this family is real or I think it's.

1977
01:41:57,600 --> 01:41:59,439
What I like about this movie too, is everyone's more real,

1978
01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:02,880
Everyone's more everyone's funny and KOOKI I love how funny

1979
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:04,640
this movie is. It makes me laugh every time I

1980
01:42:04,680 --> 01:42:07,880
watch it. It's got the weirdest lines like this script

1981
01:42:07,920 --> 01:42:10,000
could not work if the actors weren't as good as

1982
01:42:10,039 --> 01:42:12,920
they are, because they do some goofy stuff they'd really do.

1983
01:42:13,319 --> 01:42:15,359
But I love this movie, and I also love Joe

1984
01:42:15,439 --> 01:42:18,560
versus Volcano, which is written by the same person. But yeah,

1985
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:20,680
I love this movie. I watched a million times, and

1986
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:23,039
I take it away. I love this movie. I have

1987
01:42:23,159 --> 01:42:26,479
loved this movie for a really long time. I this

1988
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:28,439
was a movie that I would watch with my siblings.

1989
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:33,000
We loved Nicholas Cage screaming about his hand. We would

1990
01:42:33,199 --> 01:42:37,920
crack up when we watched it. It's a very cozy movie.

1991
01:42:39,039 --> 01:42:43,079
It's really well acted, and it's just really fun to watch.

1992
01:42:43,119 --> 01:42:46,000
Like I just I enjoy it so much, and it

1993
01:42:46,039 --> 01:42:48,039
makes me laugh really hard. And I know all the

1994
01:42:48,079 --> 01:42:50,119
dialogue and I'm sure it's very annoying. I hope all

1995
01:42:50,159 --> 01:42:53,439
of you enjoyed me saying the lines a lot in

1996
01:42:53,479 --> 01:42:56,800
this episode. So yeah, So I love this movie and

1997
01:42:56,880 --> 01:43:00,279
I will definitely watch it one hundred more times. This

1998
01:43:00,279 --> 01:43:02,079
movie feels very warm. There's the thing about like eighties

1999
01:43:02,159 --> 01:43:04,600
nineties movies that had like a warmth to them. Yes,

2000
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:08,840
that I love, and they do feel very cozy. Well,

2001
01:43:09,079 --> 01:43:14,560
even Tim Burton's Batman. I love that Batman. He's very

2002
01:43:14,600 --> 01:43:20,079
drama drama in that movie. Yes, with his turtle rampage.

2003
01:43:20,159 --> 01:43:24,520
You want to get nuts, Let's get nuts? All right? Well,

2004
01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:26,600
on that note, you know, go outside and look at

2005
01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:29,279
the moon, y'all. And you can find us at popcorn

2006
01:43:29,319 --> 01:43:36,600
Psychology on TikTok, Facebook, Instagram threads. You can always email

2007
01:43:36,680 --> 01:43:39,000
us at pop porn psychologygmail dot com. If you want

2008
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:41,039
to support us, the cheapest way that you could do

2009
01:43:41,079 --> 01:43:43,840
that is leaving a review. You can review us where

2010
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:46,279
we listen to podcasts. If you would like to support

2011
01:43:46,319 --> 01:43:48,239
us with a little bit of mood law, you can

2012
01:43:48,279 --> 01:43:54,760
do so by becoming a patreon on Yeah Patreonatron, or

2013
01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:57,119
you can buy some of our merch on tea public.

2014
01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:00,399
You know, everybody go out there and you know, grab

2015
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:01,439
life by the balls.