WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:07.599 With Laurent's segal end from London and Gerard read from Berlin. 2 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:09.880 This is redefining energy. 3 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:16.359 Today. On redefending energy, we're gonna talk about resilience and 4 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:20.519 jab you have demonstrated resilience when you went a few 5 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:22.280 days ago in Davos. 6 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:27.199 Yeah, resilience is about recovering Laarn and it takes your 7 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:31.480 time to recover from Davos because it is the craziest circus, 8 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:34.960 certainly in Europe anyway, because what you've got is obviously 9 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:37.759 global leaders from across the world meeting, and then you've 10 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:40.479 got global business leaders, and then you just got a 11 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:43.399 whole pile of hangers on. Obviously, I think there was 12 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:45.520 people there who thought I was a billionaire because they 13 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:47.320 were going up to me and asking if I would 14 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:50.240 like to set up a foundation in Lichtenstein. And I do, 15 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:54.840 But that's all the side of ends. It is crazy, 16 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:55.119 you know. 17 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.119 Crazy, crazy crazy. So what did you do there? 18 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:00.320 Obviously what I did was I took part at in 19 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:05.599 various different breakfast debates and attended quite a lot of 20 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:08.640 events and that paper. That's what I did. And what 21 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:11.040 do I take out of it? Well, I suppose we 22 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:14.439 used to talk about energy dominance in the United States perspective. 23 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:17.640 I think I just call it American dominance now because 24 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:21.920 the whole main street in Davos, which is called a promenade, 25 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:24.879 it was just full of US tech businesses. What I 26 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:28.439 came back with was just the sense of, I suppose 27 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:30.799 the strength of technology in the United States. I think 28 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.000 that was the big thing. And obviously the US government 29 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.599 took over a church. Yeah, the church is usually the 30 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:38.680 highest place in a village or a town, so that 31 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:39.680 tells you something, you know. 32 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:45.959 So no, it was interesting in particular meeting well. 33 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:48.319 I think really the most interesting thing was not really 34 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.760 in the energy space. It was just in the AI space. 35 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:54.920 It's just so much changing there. Because of the speed 36 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:58.040 of change there, it's even more difficult to predict what's 37 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.079 going to happen from an energy perspective. The words we're 38 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:05.159 moving beyond large language models to what they call world models, 39 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.800 which probably require even more energy usage empower usage. And 40 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:14.319 then also then just the usage cases for AI are 41 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:18.240 just expanding. And again it's just even the experts themselves 42 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:21.759 finding it very difficult to predict. So anyway, very exciting 43 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:24.080 and actually, by the way, there was beyond all seriousness 44 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:27.479 there was an awful lot of talk about resilience as well, 45 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.280 which in other words, resilience in and around the wider 46 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:36.080 energy system. There was obviously talk about cybersecurity, physical security, 47 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.479 the grid and really do we have enough energy? That's 48 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:41.120 the other thing. Certainly, I'd say from the United States 49 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:43.719 point of view, there's a scramble there to get energy. 50 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:46.680 The grid is not in a good situation. And then 51 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.039 from a European perspective, it is definitely just making sure 52 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:53.639 that there is something that happens to your power system 53 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:57.120 that you can recover really quickly. And that's sort of 54 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.639 what resilience is, and I suppose that's what we're going 55 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:01.080 to talk about on this podcast. 56 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:06.400 Yeah, so we have invited Ronnie Furen, the founder of 57 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:11.159 Militia NMG. It's one of your friends who probably describe 58 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:12.039 a bit what he does. 59 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:14.840 Ronnie is an expert in the whole energy space and 60 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.080 has done a whole pile of stuff in and around 61 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:21.000 generation grid, you name it. Based in Norway, knows that 62 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:23.120 space very well and I thought it'd be good just 63 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:25.800 to have someone come out up from a Nordic point 64 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:27.879 of view. And the reason for that is because the 65 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.240 Nordics as we look at them, I've sort of already electrified. 66 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:35.240 They've electrified heat, They've electrified a lot of industry, and 67 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:39.039 someone like Norway will be a leading electric EVA is 68 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:40.120 exactly exactly. 69 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:42.520 Yeah, and they're very close to the Russians. 70 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:44.120 And they're very close to Russians. 71 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:50.919 Now for our listeners, this is a super hyper geeky interview. 72 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.240 Absolutely, yeah, sometimes you have to have them. Let's bring 73 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:56.759 him on the show. Ronnie. Great to have you on 74 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:57.120 the show. 75 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:59.639 Thank you and really looking forward to me part of 76 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:00.000 the show. 77 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:03.719 Ronnie. I'm going to start a quote with somebody Jard 78 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:06.479 and I we admire and came on the show a 79 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:10.039 few years ago. It's Doug Houseman and du Gasman said 80 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:16.199 on the difference between reliability and resiliency. Reliability is how 81 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.800 well you keep the light on. Resiliency is how fast 82 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.920 you get them back on after an outage. Is that 83 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:24.680 the definition that you would share? 84 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:29.800 Yes, absolutely, that's summons up quite well. We tend to 85 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.560 mix those two words, so yeah, I think that's a 86 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:35.040 good way of putting it. That's what you can understand 87 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:38.079 the difference, because that's the daily work of ad so 88 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:41.639 or a grid operator trying to establish one out of 89 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:42.319 those two. 90 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:44.959 And I'm glad Laurent started with that actually because it 91 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:47.319 leads on to them. What you're talking about is when 92 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:51.879 something goes wrong, how quickly can we sort the situation out? 93 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:54.600 And I think that's really what we want to talk about, 94 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:56.720 because I think earlier in the year what we saw 95 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.959 was this attack on part of West Polin grid where 96 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.199 ultimately there was a power cable that was burned through 97 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.079 and suddenly it took them five days to get it 98 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:07.040 back on. But that doesn't sound to me to be 99 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:07.839 very resilient. 100 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.240 Yeah, we have seen that many times in a way 101 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:14.120 where I work. If it also just be a tree, 102 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:17.800 it could be snow creating trouble and a tree accidentally 103 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.279 hits a power line and then the same thing happened. 104 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:22.720 So this is part of our daily job trying to 105 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:26.160 solve these issues and try to be as resilient as possible. 106 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:28.879 I think we live in a world today where we 107 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:32.199 can't do it out electricity. It's just we're so dependent 108 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:35.399 on it that again, the resilience you're talking about, seeing 109 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:37.720 snow falling on a tree or you know, sys on 110 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:41.160 a line, or the line falling over resilience then is 111 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:43.839 you have to get there quickly and get it up again. 112 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:45.959 There's a question I'm asking as a great prosers, So 113 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:50.120 how could you really preventing or seeing the risks instead 114 00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:52.120 of dealing with the risks so that you don't have 115 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:54.759 to go and go into resilience mode and go out 116 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:56.879 and repair and all that type of stuff. Would you 117 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:58.600 look at your industry and say, we do a good job, 118 00:05:58.680 --> 00:05:59.639 do you do bad job? 119 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.399 First of all, I would say there are as many 120 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:05.160 answers that there are companies to the company that I 121 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:08.879 represent fifty or so and they do an amazing job. 122 00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:12.000 But you have to remember that a resilient grid, that's 123 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:15.720 a digital grid, and it's a secure grid in many layers, 124 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:19.160 and it's getting more and more decentralized. That challenge the 125 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:22.079 operators and the company itself to handle, and it is 126 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:25.519 getting more and more intelligent as well. And then you 127 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.000 get the integration part. You need to see the integration 128 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.519 with the customers and the partners that we have and 129 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:34.839 the tech providers that we have. But also you need 130 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:37.759 to be flexible and dynamic, and you need to be automated. 131 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:40.720 You also need to be real time data. And then 132 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.199 you also need to be autonomous in the future. So 133 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.920 just imagine all those buzzwords into answering the question are 134 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.360 we resilient in upper or not? So it comes down 135 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:51.000 to we need to be much more resilient than we 136 00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:53.480 are today. It comes down to we need to add 137 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.240 more layers and your types of tools that we didn't 138 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.800 have ten years back or five years back, but even 139 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:00.519 last year. 140 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.199 Can we build on that? Because you used all those 141 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:06.759 buzzwords and that's all very twenty first century. But if 142 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.000 I look at the twentieth century and the grid that 143 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.000 was built, then I don't believe that your grid operator 144 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.120 is actually applying these technologies today. And I'm going to 145 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:18.079 just use the example of that Berlin grid, But if 146 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:19.720 I could go and take the German grid as a whole, 147 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:23.079 there ain't any smart meters there so you can see 148 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:25.360 what's going on in the distribution grids. If you don't 149 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:28.680 see what's going on, how can you build a resilient 150 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:31.040 system with all those beautiful buzzwords you talked about. 151 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:34.800 Oh, I totally agree, And that's why it's buzzberds because 152 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:37.800 most of the companies don't have all those tools. So 153 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:40.800 someone probably don't even have any of those tools, and 154 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.839 I didn't even mention AI because AI is part of 155 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:46.920 every single part of those toolbox. What it can say 156 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:49.959 is that when I talk to about these buzzwords, that's 157 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.600 the future that they need to put into degree operators. 158 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:56.560 But you also where the typical is see now that 159 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:01.040 they've been working inside and operations center, working with fantastic colleagues, 160 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:03.720 there are so many reasons why, even though they have 161 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.120 heard about the persberous years, there are many barriers that 162 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:09.920 they need to handle. They can be how they invest 163 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.079 in them, how they start using them. There could be 164 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:17.600 regulatory frameworks that are keeping them moving slower. So there 165 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.040 are so many reasons why, and it all comes down 166 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.439 to having a strategy where you have decided how resilient 167 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.759 do you want to be according to the realistic budget 168 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.279 that you have, but also how can you try to 169 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.559 turn it around to create resiliency within the future technology 170 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:40.039 because every single layer needs hands in its minds in 171 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.720 these resources, so you have to prioritize those quickly to 172 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.440 address basically all of them. At the same time, if 173 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.039 you don't go into the discussion about how you told 174 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:53.519 this in general, you might lose out on some key point. 175 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:57.320 So I totally agree. There are many operators that are 176 00:08:57.399 --> 00:08:58.320 lacking a lot of data. 177 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.720 So you look about tools, you talk about metadurgyes, and 178 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:07.399 you talk about operators. First of all, are operators discussing 179 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:12.120 one with another and can exchanging best practices or not really? 180 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:15.320 And you talk about tools, I mean what tools? 181 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:19.720 Of course, the operators are talking together, but have remembered 182 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.840 that the gift is going really fast. You often see 183 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:26.480 you have a key group of operators that are actually 184 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.519 working on operating desk, and then they are the brains 185 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:33.879 and hands trying to navigate whatever meets them every single 186 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:38.000 day twenty four seven. They need even more information that 187 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:41.200 they can get from their systems because the greed is 188 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:44.519 moving so quickly into the new world that if they 189 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:47.679 don't have quick tools that can help them analyze the 190 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:52.200 situation or help them making decisions or even predict what's 191 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:56.039 going to happen, you end up running around asking questions 192 00:09:56.120 --> 00:09:59.960 to your colleagues inside operation center, outside operating oeration center 193 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.320 her and that is where the future grids more about 194 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:07.080 having information, giving you the correct day information at the 195 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.759 correct time to help them do a lot of good decisions, 196 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.440 but also doing decisions without manpower that could be done 197 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:17.519 by artificial intelligence or knowledge rule based sessions. 198 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:19.639 Like if I look at Norway and I look at 199 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.279 the Norwich in general, I sort of say, you've already 200 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:26.039 electrified your societies, right, You heat with electricity, A lot 201 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:29.919 of your industry is electricity based, and obviously you're very 202 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:32.600 trom digital. And the reason I'm saying that is because 203 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:35.919 the rest of your electrifying our energy systems. So there's 204 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:37.879 probably a lot that we could learn from you. So 205 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:39.440 what do you think we can learn from you? 206 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.919 Besides being an advisor for a So I also work 207 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:46.679 with one of Norway's largest business areas. I have four 208 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:49.840 hundred business buildings, tens of house of people, so I've 209 00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:52.039 been most of my time, I've actually been sitting on 210 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:54.960 the other side of the desk helping customers, households and 211 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:59.399 businesses doing energy efficiency and or kinds of investment now 212 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:01.480 and I both sites and one of the things that 213 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:04.360 we really and would do more of that. But you 214 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:08.240 also can learn from Europe is how these smart meters 215 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:12.759 actually also started the enablement of getting customers and grid 216 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:17.600 cooperating closer together, being more integrating. Now certainly they can 217 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.799 care more data in between each other, so you can 218 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.399 make better and more efficient decisions. But you also have 219 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:27.559 to remember that these smart meters that you typically have 220 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:31.360 today are not as fast as would like. That's typically 221 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:34.879 data also that we can summon up historical data. We 222 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:39.000 need even more submeters connected to the grid. And one 223 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:43.799 very specific example with Norway is the electric vehicle fleet. 224 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:46.480 As you know, we have a huge amount of evs 225 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:49.799 being sold, more than ninety five percent last year at 226 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:53.440 TV on one point two were petrol and diesel together, 227 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:57.080 and that was a big concern many years back, you know, 228 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:01.279 how could we even tackle all those evs around the grid. 229 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:04.919 But over a few years we realized that smart charging 230 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:09.879 infrastructure actually moved most of the stress that we were 231 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:13.039 actually and not looking forward to get. So the price 232 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:17.120 points were basically telling the smart chargers and the smart 233 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.200 meters that don't charge when you plug in. So the 234 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.679 system solved those heaks that were we were afraid of 235 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:27.840 by moving most of the charging unite without doing anything 236 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:31.200 from the greed. Basically, they're just the market solved itself, 237 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.799 and many of that was because of smart meters and 238 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:37.399 then smart submeters on the charging infrastructures and we see 239 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:39.879 that on other components as well, So I would say 240 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:44.080 smart submitters and giving data, but also smart meters or 241 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.080 other infrastructure that I can also collect data from the 242 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:51.240 grid for example when you need flexibility or you need help, 243 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:54.399 so then you actually can respond in millisecond That would 244 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:56.000 definitely help. That we've done a lot of that in 245 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:56.360 a way. 246 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:58.480 Can I follow open that? Because I think it's very 247 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.080 important to hear this because if I understand, what you've 248 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.679 done is you don't have a centralized approach where you 249 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.399 go and switch on and off the charging. What actually 250 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:10.279 happens is you're incentivizing the customer or maybe even the 251 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:15.000 retail electricity provider to provide taras to the customer so 252 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:17.679 that this is done automatic. Am I right when I 253 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:20.480 say that? And it's so because you just enlarge on that. 254 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:23.639 So you have different price points that you could use butuse. 255 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:27.519 You have the spot price itself and the cost of energy, 256 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.200 and you have your plan. They are typically high afternoon 257 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:34.360 or in the morning, and the smart charging infrastructure are 258 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.440 directly connected often to the price point, so that means 259 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:40.000 that they don't want to charge when it's expensive because 260 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.080 it makes no sense for the customer which by doing that, 261 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.240 you're basically moving the charging times away from the peak 262 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.919 hours because they are represented in the price points. On 263 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.480 top of that, the grid operators have created an API 264 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.080 where you have the different layers of tariffs, so how 265 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:00.759 much power they want to take out that specific hour, 266 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.080 and you can also add that on top, so it says, 267 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.759 even though it's cheap, don't go beyond this limit because 268 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.000 then you will get higher grid fees. So that is 269 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:13.559 not dynamic at a moment. Hopefully it will be in 270 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.960 the future, but now it's layers of tariffs and that 271 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:19.279 is also digital, so you can add that on top. 272 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:22.159 See and when I've done that, the customer really don't 273 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:26.320 think about the charging or enership price anemorely a smart 274 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.320 system at home or your charger, busy handles all that 275 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:31.759 kind of signals. And the same thing happened when the 276 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.440 grid sense of flexibility, which can ask kill a lot 277 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.799 of capacity or make a lot of capacity at one 278 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.360 specific in overdoor area in the grid, and then the 279 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:44.240 system will automatically then give that to us if they 280 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:45.960 are part of that flexibility market. 281 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.120 So what you're really saying is digitalization is a critical 282 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.960 part of this new I know you said this earlier on, 283 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:53.960 but that's really what you're saying, and that's a very 284 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.279 practical example of her. Right. 285 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:59.600 Absolutely, you talked about the operator not having these insights 286 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:03.000 or the vision of what's really going on, and that's 287 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.120 the whole point. Do you need information? It needs to 288 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:08.120 be digitaled. You need to give the operators insight, not 289 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:10.840 just with the customer. Of course their own equipment as well. 290 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:14.559 So there's a lot of sensors getting out their cameras, 291 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:19.559 monitoring temperatures, tons of information now being sent into operator 292 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.600 which helped them to maneuver whatever goes on. 293 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.320 Can I ask if we talk about the transmission and 294 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.440 the distribution group, right, TRANSMISSI gives obviously long distance and 295 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:32.039 distribution grid the last mile. Right, What we see across 296 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:34.519 most of Europe and the Western world is that we're 297 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:37.080 very very good at the transmission level, and we're very 298 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.639 good at seeing what's going on there and making sure 299 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:42.320 the frequency stays and balance and all that type of stuff. 300 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.080 But I don't see that the distribution grid, And what 301 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:48.120 I'm hearing from you is that actually Norway really is 302 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.240 doing good job. Maybe just talk about the distribution transmission 303 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.679 and how they work. Together and how you also see 304 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:55.799 that there in the future. 305 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:58.879 Often we also talk about three layers. We also talked 306 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.679 about the low the lowest one as well. That's also 307 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:06.559 could be really hard to manage. The transmission part is 308 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:10.360 important for us, especially in the area where I'm helping 309 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.039 at the moment. That's actually very interconnectors also comes into 310 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:17.519 Norway South, part of Norway's the d SO needs to 311 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.440 work really really close with the TSO or the dot 312 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:25.159 net in Norway because you have hundreds of megawa is 313 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:27.200 coming in from Europe and at the same time you 314 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.600 have hundreds of megawads locally produced from higher power plants 315 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.440 in our area, and at the same time you have 316 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:37.120 data centers or industries within it. And then you have 317 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.200 to push it towards the next region, towards us Law 318 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:43.559 or other parts of Norway. So we are helping are 319 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:47.240 in between basically Europe and Norway at the same time, 320 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.519 and then we have our own problems that in our regions. 321 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:55.000 So there's actually right now going on project where we're 322 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.320 trying to look into the regulatory issues where the d SO, 323 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:02.799 the Distribusion Network actually getting more insight and more mandate 324 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:07.039 to even better operate in between this landscape because normally 325 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.000 we had to rely totally on that part. But now 326 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:13.759 I'm even even further into the big lines because just 327 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:16.839 imagine shifting those amount of power from one hour on 328 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.200 second to another. So yeah, it's troubling, but also it's 329 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.799 easier where we here to manage many lays at the 330 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:24.279 same time. 331 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:29.400 We talk about interconnector and sometimes they are a bit controversial, 332 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:33.079 like they're going to increase prices or not. But overall, 333 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:37.160 and that's our opinion here the increased residiency and we've 334 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.480 seen them to restop the blackout in Spain. They were 335 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:44.680 really critical last year. So what's your your inter connectors 336 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.640 and should we be more interconnected? That's a very good question, 337 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.759 especially for the Innuisians at the moment. You're totally right, 338 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.839 the interconnectors are not very popular in Norway at the moment, 339 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.240 depending of course who you ask. 340 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.200 When the enershire prices went skyrocking few years back, the 341 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:07.640 ordinary Norwisian were basically woke up. We taught electricity as 342 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:11.480 cheap or even close to free, even though it wasn't. 343 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.799 It was super cheap, even though we are fully electric, 344 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.440 especially on heating and also vehicles. We didn't see the 345 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:22.759 problem with price points, and suddenly we got ten times 346 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:26.359 or even twenty forty times higher prices three years back, 347 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:30.200 and that's where everyone's starting to realize that electricity is 348 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.839 something that we might not have as much as we 349 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.880 were used to. We're used to exporting energy, not importing energy. 350 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:41.480 So there having a lot of controversy around it, and 351 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:44.680 it ended up with the government in all Way basically 352 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.599 splitting one year back in January February last year, and 353 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:50.759 they were election year last year as well, so they 354 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:54.480 basically created what they called the Norwegian Price, which is 355 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:58.359 a flat price on all parts of Norway political set price. 356 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:01.759 It's actually lower than the ACH so it's a no 357 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:05.599 brainer for households, not businesses, but households to jump into 358 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.599 that agreement. And that was just for the politicians to 359 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:13.000 try to stuff that discussion on interconnectors and energy price 360 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:16.359 points because on an energy perspective, of course we need 361 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:20.359 the interconnectors. We have too much production at the moment, 362 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:22.880 you know, we need to share them with Swin, we 363 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.960 need to share them to Denmark, UK and EU. We 364 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.559 want to help on the transition to the zero of 365 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:32.000 low emissions, but at the same time, we can't forget 366 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:35.000 that we also need to change our own industries and 367 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:38.880 data centers also is now clean to play where the 368 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:42.319 many data centers want to move to Norway because it 369 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.839 is cheaper than many other European countries and it's also 370 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.359 a green hydro. So there is a huge concern both 371 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:52.880 on the consumption of energy and Norway, but also the 372 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:57.839 energy price is being moved over to especially the southern 373 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.839 part of Norway. You can see on the prices last 374 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:04.240 year and see that the South path of Norway were 375 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:06.680 much higher than the rest of part of the Norway. 376 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.720 So it's a huge different in offense south of norwegn 377 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:14.200 prize points and of course interconnectors DESI is huge reason 378 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.519 to that. So yeah, it's a very controversial discussion and 379 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.680 the politicians don't really dare to decide what to do with. 380 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.640 For example, have a couple of connectors to Denmark that 381 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.200 need to be renewed and they haven't really decided yet 382 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.160 if they should because they know this is a political 383 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.720 mindfield basically to discuss what to do with the cables. 384 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:39.359 Something that the Norwegian politician must have missed is the 385 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.119 following when the cable with Scotland was put together. The 386 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:47.519 plan was to export surplus hydro, but then the following 387 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:50.400 into a twenty two other draught, so in fact you 388 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:54.960 had to import. Now in order to import, GB had 389 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.079 to run more gas plans. And where does the gas 390 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:03.440 come from? Equinor Okay, the gas was expensive because Equino 391 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.440 was charging a maximum and that's the year where they 392 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.599 made more money than Saudi Aramco, but they didn't really 393 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:13.759 publicize it. So the Brits came to see the Norwegian 394 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.599 and said, look, you want a cheaper power. You one 395 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.960 hundred percent government owned. Why don't you talk to your 396 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.799 colleague on the other side of the street, which one 397 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.960 hundred percent government owned. So they reduced the price of 398 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:28.200 the gas, so we can reduce the price of power 399 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:31.839 and guess the lets say so read the regulation blah 400 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:33.920 blah blah blah blah. So you're going to pay top 401 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:38.079