Speaker 1: Hello from an Echoe hotel in Amsterdam.
Speaker 2: Hello, Every every day is a new adventure with you.
Speaker 2: Where are we going to be, what's going to happen?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that's right. So you know, I'm taking
Speaker 1: advantage of the fact that my boyfriend is an internationally
Speaker 1: renowned trainer of sex educators, and sometimes they let him
Speaker 1: go to Amsterdam, and then I say I could go
Speaker 1: to Amsterdam, and then suddenly I'm recording in an Echoe hotel.
Speaker 3: Room, and that's what happens.
Speaker 1: That's just how it be. Sometimes I did for work,
Speaker 1: just have to record a podcast.
Speaker 3: Okay, like I listen.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm stuck on you said trainer, and you said
Speaker 2: trainer of sex education people. It's really like like you
Speaker 2: thought you gonna be like trainer of sex and so
Speaker 2: it's just him like watching people be like, no, you.
Speaker 1: You'll you can't do that.
Speaker 2: Time, Martha, No, pretty much grind, grind, you look like
Speaker 2: you're breaking his dick off. Woman anyway, Sorry, he's actually
Speaker 2: he's actually doing real good things instead of the dumb
Speaker 2: shit in my head. Go ahead, you know.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, if anyone wants to hire
Speaker 1: him to do that, we could use the cash, so
Speaker 1: I'll be fine.
Speaker 2: Your technique is fucking awful. So I haven't even started yet.
Speaker 2: Shut off.
Speaker 1: Look I need to do but this is like I
Speaker 1: need to call in to myself about the echoey situation
Speaker 1: here because I'm gonna I'm gonna level with you, dear listeners,
Speaker 1: who I love more than life itself. I understand this
Speaker 1: hotel room is echoe okay for work, I just had
Speaker 1: to do a podcast and in order to do it,
Speaker 1: I made a blanket for it in order to like baffle,
Speaker 1: and so I was in there for an hour and
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. But I can't I can't get the blanket
Speaker 1: for it to not like have the blanket come down
Speaker 1: on my head and it gave me a neck ache
Speaker 1: because I just have like this big duvet slash comforter
Speaker 1: or whatever you don know if you're Australian. And I
Speaker 1: was just on my head the whole time and it
Speaker 1: gave me an eckache and I was like, I can't
Speaker 1: do it.
Speaker 3: I can't do it a second time.
Speaker 1: And you know what, the good listeners O were not
Speaker 1: so different, deserve better. But also I'd like to see
Speaker 1: you build a better blanket for it.
Speaker 2: In a hotel room. Impossible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very difficult.
Speaker 2: No, that one's yeah, that's gonna be tough. You can't
Speaker 2: move the furniture very much. You don't have the necessary
Speaker 2: sticks or chairs you need, yeah, to prop it up. Look,
Speaker 2: I don't know jack shit about architecture, but I can
Speaker 2: build you a mean ass for it out of some
Speaker 2: blankets if you give me, like, you know, a couple
Speaker 2: of chairs, and you know, you.
Speaker 1: Know what I kind of need is like a lighter blanket,
Speaker 1: because even with the lighter blanket it would work. But
Speaker 1: it's just like with the heavy one.
Speaker 2: I got that heavy with like rated for old people,
Speaker 2: and you're just like your flop sweating like in in
Speaker 2: the Middle Ages. You look like you're in a sweat
Speaker 2: lodge man.
Speaker 1: And it's like and it's like full continental European hours
Speaker 1: out here. There's no top sheet, you know. So it's
Speaker 1: just like there's just this really heavy blanket.
Speaker 3: That's all I've got to work with.
Speaker 2: I have seen an image of it, and folks, it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it was whimsical the first time the second
Speaker 1: time and like, you know, I already I think deserve
Speaker 1: a pat on the back for not drinking beer. During
Speaker 1: this podcast, so like you can see you can see
Speaker 1: like the limits, Like I've got some professionality going. It's
Speaker 1: just kind of like where is that? Where are the
Speaker 1: limits thereof goes Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yep, oh man, and blanket for that's tremendous. I've seen
Speaker 2: a picture of it, folks.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I it looks like if you are a fan of
Speaker 2: the Alien movies and Prometheus, the the ship thing that
Speaker 2: the engineers sit in, you know, the first one you
Speaker 2: see is the big ship and you know, uh, he's
Speaker 2: just he's just laying He's just sitting there. He's got
Speaker 2: like the elephant mouth looking thing. And then in Prometheus
Speaker 2: they kind of flesh it out more and that's kind
Speaker 2: of what it looks like, like like sitting there and
Speaker 2: just leaned back. Oh god, yeah, that's those hotel blankets
Speaker 2: are rated for old people. That Yeah, you're just like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like sweating your ass off.
Speaker 1: You know, it's Amsterdam, so there isn't really air con
Speaker 1: and I mean it's it's actually you know, the weather
Speaker 1: itself is pretty nice, but you know, if you're going
Speaker 1: to sit in a blanket for it, you'd probably want
Speaker 1: some kind of cooling thing anyway, like the point is,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things.
Speaker 3: I'll do for medieval history, but there's a there's a limit.
Speaker 2: It's it's fine. It's not echoing on this, uh what
Speaker 2: you might call it is really good about zoom is
Speaker 2: usually pretty good about isolating it. And I'll fix it
Speaker 2: in posts if I have to. But yeah, it's fine,
Speaker 2: they're fine. Everything is fine.
Speaker 1: It occurs to me it's so apt and appropriate to
Speaker 1: be doing the kink episode. Well whilst an answerdawn.
Speaker 2: Though, yeah, also a.
Speaker 1: Ranting and like you know, side by side sickness has
Speaker 1: really enabled something beautiful to come together.
Speaker 2: So that's great, that's right. Ye, well then yeah, let's
Speaker 2: uh let's use that as a segue.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to We're Not So Different, a
Speaker 2: podcast about how I've always been idiots. My name is
Speaker 2: Luke and I am not in a blanket for it
Speaker 2: an Amsterdam, and as always I am joined by doctor
Speaker 2: Eleanor Yannage who was in one until very recently. Folks,
Speaker 2: it is not safe for work time here on the podcast.
Speaker 2: But first we have patron questions. A question for Pearl
Speaker 2: River Flow, how is medieval heckling done? Slash handled? Did
Speaker 2: people boo bards who weren't good if someone came to
Speaker 2: town to do a recital and it sucked, did they
Speaker 2: really throw tomatoes? Well, not tomatoes, but you know whatever
Speaker 2: they would have had. I know they did that stuff
Speaker 2: during Shakespeare's time, but I feel like anyone, if anyone
Speaker 2: is going to mention getting booed out of town, it
Speaker 2: would be the guys writing and performing this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean for real, we do know that medieval
Speaker 1: people think about performance as much more audience involved.
Speaker 3: We could just.
Speaker 1: Say that, you know, there's a lot more yelling he's
Speaker 1: behind you and things of this nature. And that's partially
Speaker 1: because the way that they do performance is a lot
Speaker 1: more like and it could happen to you, right because
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: But also, I mean performance is in such a new
Speaker 2: is in such a protean form compared to what we
Speaker 2: think of now. You know, like, of course you're gonna
Speaker 2: like that. That's how little kids are about TV now,
Speaker 2: I'm not like it literally is they're like these behind you, Dora,
Speaker 2: these behind you know, like they do that ship you
Speaker 2: know in the TV. Asked you a question, You're like yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, like yeah, it's Yeahdian that's prodian art criticism, kidding.
Speaker 1: One for the elder millennial cloud, you know, like screaming
Speaker 1: real loud when they say the secret word on pee
Speaker 1: Wee's Playhouse there.
Speaker 2: You go out, I say Dora because it's the one
Speaker 2: I remember from my kid, you know, from my kid
Speaker 2: doing it, you know a few times. But yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: pee Wee, Yeah, definitely Peewee's. You know, definitely screaming at
Speaker 2: the animaniacs like, oh no, yeah, Peter Lourie is behind you, Like,
Speaker 2: how do I know who Peter Laurie? Doesn't matter, just
Speaker 2: he's right there. Whack oh, get the fuck out of
Speaker 2: the way, dude. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like so they got a lot more. They're very
Speaker 1: much encouraged to think of themselves as part of performances.
Speaker 1: And indeed, a lot of the time, if you see
Speaker 1: a performance, most of the time, it's not going to
Speaker 1: be by.
Speaker 3: Professionals, it's going to be by people.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like John's doing the mystery play this year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that kind of a thing.
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're gonna be a lot more like you
Speaker 1: fuck it, suck John or whatever you know, to people
Speaker 1: when you have like the finer and more high falutant
Speaker 1: troops that then kind of like becomes more of a thing.
Speaker 1: But still like.
Speaker 3: These are all, as general a rule of.
Speaker 1: Thumb, more emotive, so you know, they would kind of
Speaker 1: like boo or yell or things like that, but they're
Speaker 1: they're also I guess when they're booming it a lot
Speaker 1: of times it tends to be more kind of like
Speaker 1: with the performance a lot more like they're expected to
Speaker 1: do so, and we kind of like hear less about
Speaker 1: them doing it in response to a bad performance. Now
Speaker 1: we one of the reasons we know more about it
Speaker 1: from for example, Shakespeare's like by the early modern period,
Speaker 1: you've moved more into this idea of like the art
Speaker 1: tour as a performer, like actor as a career, and
Speaker 1: a play is a professional thing that you're going to see,
Speaker 1: right whereas you know, for medieval people it's a lot
Speaker 1: less professional. I mean, there are there are professional actors,
Speaker 1: for sure, but you're not going to see them. They're
Speaker 1: going to be at court, Yeah, they're going to be
Speaker 1: at places like that. So you know, it's a lot
Speaker 1: less common for ordinary people to have access to that stuff,
Speaker 1: so we hear more about it. In the early modern
Speaker 1: period because you have still that sensibility that plays are
Speaker 1: interactive and that they're here for you and they're being
Speaker 1: done for you, as well as the idea that these
Speaker 1: are now people who you've paid good money to be
Speaker 1: entertained and it's just like you know, the local mystery plays,
Speaker 1: like no one's paid for this, so like you're not
Speaker 1: You're not going to do people because that would that
Speaker 1: would be ridiculous. I mean, even if you're a really
Speaker 1: good troubadour or something and you're going around performing, you
Speaker 1: pay them afterward. So if you don't like it, you
Speaker 1: just don't pay or you wander off. And so I
Speaker 1: think that there's also this kind of like barrier in
Speaker 1: terms of like how payment works that really changes how
Speaker 1: people see about things.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I when did did they throw fruits
Speaker 2: and vegetables? I really hope they did and that wasn't
Speaker 2: an early modern thing.
Speaker 3: I'm yeah, they probably did.
Speaker 1: You know, we do know that a lot of fruits
Speaker 1: and vegetables get thrown at people who are in the
Speaker 1: stocks first.
Speaker 2: Ah okay, okay, I like it. I like it.
Speaker 1: I imagine that it probably spills over into that we
Speaker 1: have fewer documents talking about it. But I am just
Speaker 1: assuming that it happens, and that I know that it happens.
Speaker 2: If they threw them at people in the stocks and
Speaker 2: they booed people who did this and like you know,
Speaker 2: complained about the stuff, I can't imagine that it didn't
Speaker 2: come to that at one point, because I mean that is,
Speaker 2: you know, like when you don't have other words for
Speaker 2: criticism other and boo is not loud or strong enough,
Speaker 2: You're like, hey, what's this? Oh hey, this thing goes
Speaker 2: splat and fucks up your clothes, you know, or you know,
Speaker 2: hurts whatever, you know, And I'm thinking about tomatoes.
Speaker 1: But they just didn't have fucking to me like a
Speaker 1: lot more throwing like horse maneure o.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay, well yeah proflow. Thank you for the question. Next
Speaker 2: we got one from dog God, which is something I
Speaker 2: have wondered about before too. How did medieval Christians feel
Speaker 2: about burying the dead with valuable or sentimental objects? Did
Speaker 2: the idea of bodily resurrection extend to the clothes they
Speaker 2: were wearing or the items on their person? If not,
Speaker 2: did they do it anyway? So like so you know,
Speaker 2: like objects going into the grave with them, did they
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so grave objects absolutely do go in with people.
Speaker 1: We tend to see it more in the earlier medieval period.
Speaker 1: But by that I mean like objects, like a monopoly
Speaker 1: of objects, And there's been some really great archaeological studies
Speaker 1: about this where we think that perhaps in the earlier
Speaker 1: medieval period, and by this I mean, like I'm kind
Speaker 1: of talking more about like the eighth century ninth century,
Speaker 1: grave goods, even in Christian burials are usually super present
Speaker 1: and oftentimes include weapons, and so we think that there
Speaker 1: may have been more of a perception of the journey
Speaker 1: to heaven or purgatory or hell or wherever it is
Speaker 1: you're going as being dangerous and something that one needs
Speaker 1: to have been armed for.
Speaker 3: And this is especially true of Northern Europe.
Speaker 1: You know, places that are a little bit different, you know,
Speaker 1: like less so in the Italian lands, more.
Speaker 3: So in Northern Europe.
Speaker 1: So you know, you put like staves in with people,
Speaker 1: and oftentimes you do see jewelry, you know, like people's
Speaker 1: favorite jewelry, crosses, super super common things of this nature.
Speaker 1: So personal objects such as this are very common to
Speaker 1: find in graves. And I think with that it's a
Speaker 1: little just sentimental a lot of the time. You know,
Speaker 1: like grandma's earrings, we're going to put those on her,
Speaker 1: you know. And certainly we see a lot of crosses,
Speaker 1: just so many crosses on people, and that probably is
Speaker 1: also could like consider to be like epipatraychal, you know,
Speaker 1: something that is going to ward off stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: in in the afterlife. It will continue through the medieval
Speaker 1: period of just kind of like bearing people with their
Speaker 1: nice things, like you know there but personal objects that
Speaker 1: one would wear on the person later in the medieval
Speaker 1: period and less like oh this was her cup as
Speaker 1: you see earlier in the medieval period. So there does
Speaker 1: seem to be more of an idea and understanding that
Speaker 1: you're going to go to some spiritual place. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna need all of that, but like maybe
Speaker 1: you know a cross would be good or you know,
Speaker 1: no one could bear to where Granddad's ring anyway, so
Speaker 1: we're gonna bear with.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think the teaching that I the
Speaker 2: biblical teaching that I understand both at least a modern
Speaker 2: Catholic and Protestant is you know that when you die,
Speaker 2: you are like, you know, a healthy version of yourself
Speaker 2: and you go to heaven either you look like maybe
Speaker 2: what you did when you passed away or like the
Speaker 2: best version of yourself during your life. But you basically
Speaker 2: get like a holy arraignment of some kind like a robe,
Speaker 2: you know, like you know, basically because they can't imagine
Speaker 2: any everyone being naked, so you're you know, your clothes
Speaker 2: something like that. But then you know you don't take
Speaker 2: any you don't take anything with you, you know, because
Speaker 2: Jesus is like, you know, he's like very clear on
Speaker 2: like you should give this away. You can't take it
Speaker 2: with you, And people are like, huh, that's interesting. Cool anyway,
Speaker 2: you know, throw my expensive gold ring in the grave
Speaker 2: with me, don't sell it to feed the family.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1: Also, like a big thing that you tend to see
Speaker 1: in the medieval period as well, like and why you
Speaker 1: see like fewer you know, richly buried things or whatever,
Speaker 1: is that there's also like a real.
Speaker 3: Understanding that like, yeah, you might go to hell.
Speaker 1: So like even rich people will be like, can you
Speaker 1: dress me up like a monk, you know, like.
Speaker 2: Tonster me, And they're like what tonsure me? Now?
Speaker 3: Like Emperor Frederick the second is buried as a month.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I remember ye, like famous ones who
Speaker 2: are like, uh no, tonster me and they're like, no,
Speaker 2: like to do it? Yeah, but what do you You're
Speaker 2: not a do it? Yeah? Are you going to trick God?
Speaker 2: Shut up?
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, and they're like, well, I don't know shit,
Speaker 3: maybe right, And then so.
Speaker 1: Clearly there is an idea that there can be some
Speaker 1: problems based on what you're buried with, or that how
Speaker 1: you were buried is going to have some kind of
Speaker 1: resonance whoever's judging on the other side. But you know,
Speaker 1: for medieval people, there is much more of an understanding
Speaker 1: that rich people are evil, so they are, especially from
Speaker 1: the High Medieval period onward, they're gonna resist that in
Speaker 1: a way that you don't see now, you know.
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, well that you know that that does clear
Speaker 2: it up. Even though it's still cool to be buried
Speaker 2: with the sword, regardless of what happened, you know, regardless
Speaker 2: of what's going on in the next life. It's cool
Speaker 2: to sword, Like I just want to be buried with
Speaker 2: like random stuff that will confuse people like like some
Speaker 2: future like historian like that, like my body is preserved somehow,
Speaker 2: and they're like, oh my god, he was buried with
Speaker 2: a spoon, which meant he must have loved the soup.
Speaker 2: Maybe they worshiped soup.
Speaker 3: You know, and like I worship soup to be fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah, uh dog god, thank you for the question. Uh.
Speaker 2: If you want to ask us questions like the ease,
Speaker 2: please do subscribe to the Patreon at Patreon dot com
Speaker 2: at slash w n Pod five bucks a month. We
Speaker 2: just passed six hundred patrons. That's awesome. You guys are awesome.
Speaker 2: Thanks for subscribing. Everyone else, subscribe to It'll be fun,
Speaker 2: all right.
Speaker 3: Also, seven hundred subscribers will build the for it again.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we'll rebuild the blanket for it in a
Speaker 2: hotel room in Amsterdam and do a live Oh my god,
Speaker 2: I'm just probably it's seven hundred.
Speaker 1: Local fly to Amsterdam. We'll build a blanket.
Speaker 2: For it, do a lot and do a live episode.
Speaker 2: There's right, yep, uh yeah, Patreon dot com slash w
Speaker 2: Nasty Pod. Uh, there's almost ninety bonus episodes. All other episodes.
Speaker 1: Patreon has a goal like it blank and for.
Speaker 3: Podcastank it for it live show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you haven't checked it out yet, check
Speaker 2: out our series Welcome to the Crusades. The first Crusade
Speaker 2: with the American Prestige Guys UK and go to Welcome
Speaker 2: to the Crusades dot com to get it for ten dollars. Patrons,
Speaker 2: check out your emails and stuff for a code to
Speaker 2: get twenty percent off. Anyway, all right, real quick, just
Speaker 2: a warning, folks, You're about to have a frank discussion
Speaker 2: about people engaging in BDSM in the pre modern world
Speaker 2: and the sexual anerotic practices surrounding it, with some jokes
Speaker 2: thrown in as is our wont it's going to be
Speaker 2: very not safe for work. Now. There is nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with talking about sex and joking about it or anything
Speaker 2: like that. However, this is just a warning so that
Speaker 2: you know going in that it might be a bad
Speaker 2: idea to listen to this rendy coworkers or your boss,
Speaker 2: or a young impressional child or just anyone. You might
Speaker 2: not want to hear this sort of thing, so maybe
Speaker 2: save it for later listening if you're in one of
Speaker 2: those situations, or hey, go right ahead and listen. Now.
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with talking about sex, you know, and
Speaker 2: just you know, don't blame us if your ten year
Speaker 2: old starts asking about the ancient Etruscan BDSM tomb slash
Speaker 2: cum dungeon. Thanks.
Speaker 1: I can't say Tom come com dungeon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah he could. I just did that. It just
Speaker 3: doesn't work as well.
Speaker 2: The dungeon come to him. Yep uh. In nineteen sixty,
Speaker 2: an Italian man named Carlo Lerici was excavating a site
Speaker 2: near Tarquinia, a small town and large ruin that sits
Speaker 2: along the western coast of the boot of Italy, when
Speaker 2: he made a fascinating discovery. Now this is nothing new.
Speaker 2: You can hardly throw a spade in the dirt on
Speaker 2: the Peninsula without hitting an ancient Roman pottery shard or road.
Speaker 2: They famously can't dig underground in Rome without finding new
Speaker 2: pieces of history to excavate, so they just don't do it.
Speaker 2: Yet this discovery in Tarquinia was different. It wasn't from
Speaker 2: the Room Imperial era and likely dates back to within
Speaker 2: two decades of the founding of the Roman Republic circa
Speaker 2: five o nine BCE. However, this place wasn't even Roman.
Speaker 2: It actually belonged to the Etruscans, a classical confederation of
Speaker 2: city states that directly or indirectly held land stretching from
Speaker 2: Mantua in the north to Campania in the south from
Speaker 2: seven to fifty to around four to fifty. The Etruscans
Speaker 2: are a well attested civilization, with troves of their art,
Speaker 2: tools and buildings surviving, but only tiny fragments of their riding,
Speaker 2: which means we typically define them by what the Romans
Speaker 2: and Greeks said about them, and since Atruria was one
Speaker 2: of the Roman Republic's earliest victims in terms of territorial conquest,
Speaker 2: it was slandered thusly, as the losing side often is.
Speaker 2: Even so, archaeological rimnants that shed more light on their
Speaker 2: thoughts and ideas have survived into modern times, especially huge
Speaker 2: burial complexes known as necropolee or cities of the Dead.
Speaker 2: Interesting part of one of these necropolis was discovered by
Speaker 2: Carlo l Rici in nineteen sixty. It was a small
Speaker 2: tomb composed of a single chamber the size of a
Speaker 2: small house or a large studio apartment in the wider
Speaker 2: Montrosi Necropolis outside Tarquinia. The presence of such tomb is
Speaker 2: not uncommon in Montrosi. That is the point of the place,
Speaker 2: after all, it's what's intide the tomb that stands out
Speaker 2: and lends it a name. Now known as the Tomb
Speaker 2: of the Whipping. The structure was at once a work
Speaker 2: of art imbued with ritual significance, meant to ward off
Speaker 2: evil spirits, a liminal space with false doors leading to
Speaker 2: an underworld, and undeniable proof that people have been engaging
Speaker 2: in BDSM for a very long time. How could we
Speaker 2: possibly know this about a tomb built by a civilization
Speaker 2: in which very little writing survives, and that was forgotten
Speaker 2: about and buried for more than a thousand years. Well,
Speaker 2: you see, the Etruscans healthily left us an unmistakable clue, namely,
Speaker 2: a giant mural depicting two men and a woman in
Speaker 2: a threesome in what we might call an Eiffel Tower
Speaker 2: style scenario. A beardless man is fucking the woman from
Speaker 2: behind while holding a whip, whilst she is simultaneously philating
Speaker 2: a bearded man who appears to be spanking her back.
Speaker 2: This is flanked by a false wall that contains a
Speaker 2: secret door leading out another image of two people, likely
Speaker 2: engaging in intercourse the millennia of wear and tear have
Speaker 2: left it questionable. Is also flanked by a false door.
Speaker 2: The rest of the Tomb of the Whipping contains murals
Speaker 2: of new musicians, dancers, and and boxers. We don't exactly
Speaker 2: know the context for this vivid portrayal of BDSM, as
Speaker 2: it has been implied that such sexually explicit images serve
Speaker 2: apotropaic purposes, apotrophic purposes of warding off demons and evil spirits,
Speaker 2: and may have been ritualistic in nature, or just a
Speaker 2: nice mural of three people engage against some fun kink.
Speaker 2: But we do know for a fact that you don't
Speaker 2: make a mural like this portraying these acts unless these
Speaker 2: acts are commonly understood within your society. You know that's
Speaker 2: not how people really do that. So don't let anyone
Speaker 2: anywhere tell you that BDSM in such forms of kink
Speaker 2: are modern or postmodern phenomena. We've been doming and subbing
Speaker 2: for far, far longer than that. So today we're going
Speaker 2: to talk about BDSM in antiquity in the Middle Ages.
Speaker 2: Why it's nothing new, And you know what this tells
Speaker 2: us about ourselves. Eleanor before we go any further. You
Speaker 2: are a historian of sex, and quite a good one
Speaker 2: at that. Can you please explain what we're talking about
Speaker 2: when we say BDSM. We all no doubt have ideas
Speaker 2: in our heads, but you know, what practices are we
Speaker 2: talking about here? And how far are you know? How
Speaker 2: far are we going with this? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean good question, because you know there's BDSM and
Speaker 1: then there's kink more generally, and BDSM obviously sits within
Speaker 1: the window kink, but it's not all kink because I
Speaker 1: don't know, like your kink could to be like giving
Speaker 1: someone a nice foot massage and that's not very bdsny.
Speaker 1: So you know BDSM specifically stansor of bondage discipline and
Speaker 1: sado masochism, So it involves more explicitly giving and receiving
Speaker 1: painful things, oftentimes tying people up, and ideas about power play,
Speaker 1: so you know, moving around with the idea of like
Speaker 1: who who is up, who is down? Who has the
Speaker 1: power in this particular situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So there's a lot of stuff that.
Speaker 1: You can do within that. You know, it could just
Speaker 1: be like something like you know, dressing up and you know,
Speaker 1: playing games, you know, with with like calling people varying names,
Speaker 1: or you know, you could be like flogging people, you
Speaker 1: know and doing serious stuff like that. But it's a
Speaker 1: pretty wide umbrella. But it's just as a general rule
Speaker 1: of what we mean is that there's power play involved,
Speaker 1: there might be pain involved, and there might be being
Speaker 1: tied up involved.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I uh so, you know, speaking from like a
Speaker 2: clinical perspective, you know, a lot of people might find
Speaker 2: this might not be for them, and it might even
Speaker 2: kind of scare them or freak them out. I personally
Speaker 2: am not a fan of u you know, uh, violent
Speaker 2: or aggressive acts like this, you know, from a sexual perspective,
Speaker 2: But a lot of people are you know, consenting adults
Speaker 2: who are perfectly fine with this stuff. So, like, from
Speaker 2: a clinical perspective, is is this like a sexual deviance?
Speaker 2: Because people because you know, we really don't think of
Speaker 2: like violence and sex going together like this often. So like,
Speaker 2: you know, can you clear that up for people who
Speaker 2: might be a little squeamish about it?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean I think that there is a tendency, you know,
Speaker 1: especially because you know, this is where consent comes in.
Speaker 1: Oh no, my boyfriend is going to listen to this,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to get consent wrong.
Speaker 3: It's gonna be Yeah.
Speaker 1: But so you know that the magical thing in every
Speaker 1: single human interaction, like whether that be sexual or whether
Speaker 1: it be ordering a pizza to quote by a boyfriend's
Speaker 1: excellent book Can We talk about consent? Is is? Consent
Speaker 1: is this thing about getting along in terms of going
Speaker 1: along with what the other person wants. And that isn't
Speaker 1: just saying yes.
Speaker 3: Or no out loud with our mouths.
Speaker 1: It's about tuning into that other person, reading situations very carefully,
Speaker 1: and going with things. You know. So for example, you know,
Speaker 1: with ordering a pizza, you might just be like, Okay, look,
Speaker 1: here are some things that I definitely do not want
Speaker 1: to do or cannot do, Like if you're allergic to something,
Speaker 1: you'll be like, hey, would love to eat a pizza,
Speaker 1: but cannot eat X thing on my pizza, right, and
Speaker 1: then people would have to do it within those confines.
Speaker 1: Same thing can be true of sex, right, So people
Speaker 1: who are interested in doing stuff like BDSM have to
Speaker 1: get way better at the consent thing, right. Like that's
Speaker 1: because since it is more advanced in terms of the
Speaker 1: fact that like people can get really.
Speaker 3: Hurt and you have to be very very careful.
Speaker 1: It means that you also have to get incredibly good
Speaker 1: at negotiating what things are going to be done and
Speaker 1: also in terms of how things go forward. And indeed,
Speaker 1: often people who are doing things within the king community
Speaker 1: are a little bit better with that than the average individual.
Speaker 1: And also within that, I think that what a lot
Speaker 1: of people who are into BDS actually say is that
Speaker 1: oftentimes you know, the bottom if that's the term that
Speaker 1: you want to use, or the s the sub Ultimately,
Speaker 1: those are the people who the power lies with a
Speaker 1: lot of the time, because they're the ones who are saying,
Speaker 1: this is kind of like what we're going to do
Speaker 1: and where it's going to go, and like I draw
Speaker 1: the line at where we stop, kind of like a
Speaker 1: wink wink, nudge nudge, like oh, I'm so helpless. Yeah
Speaker 1: you know, well but really you're the one who's like, no, yes,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. It is what people would say. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that it is important to point out that
Speaker 1: when you do things that are physically painful, you have
Speaker 1: a burden of care to be incredibly careful with people
Speaker 1: and to be good.
Speaker 3: At checking in with others.
Speaker 1: So you know, that is what underpins practices of BDSM
Speaker 1: these days. You know, I can say less obviously from
Speaker 1: a historical context, because we don't have so many BDSM
Speaker 1: manuals from the past unfortunately, But yeah, it is ultimately
Speaker 1: a performance, right again, like something that that everyone is
Speaker 1: agreeing to do. So that's what is important to keep
Speaker 1: an eye on. And instead of thinking that that just
Speaker 1: means anything goes, indeed, it doesn't mean anything goes. And
Speaker 1: oftentimes people who are BDSM practitioners have to be much much, much,
Speaker 1: much much more careful than anyone else otherwise would.
Speaker 2: Be Yeah, yeah, so that is uh, you know, that's
Speaker 2: just the more modern context for what BDSM is and
Speaker 2: what we're talking about. So as longtime listeners will know,
Speaker 2: both Eleanor and I subscribe to the idea that there's
Speaker 2: really nothing new under the sexual sun, as it were,
Speaker 2: and even though we can't always see direct evidence of it,
Speaker 2: humans have been engaging in similar sexual acts basically since
Speaker 2: humans have been around. Or to put it more bluntly,
Speaker 2: people didn't invent just being tied up for sexual purposes
Speaker 2: in like nineteen sixty five. So who is it that
Speaker 2: thinks BDSM hasn't existed for a long time? And what
Speaker 2: is the reasoning behind this idea? Like why does it matter?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 3: Yeah, people love them. I guess that people like.
Speaker 1: To pretend that sex in general was invented in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, right, Like, and you know there's a part
Speaker 1: of this, which is that it squicks people out to
Speaker 1: think about the fact that like their parents were banging,
Speaker 1: or that their grandparents were banging, or any of those
Speaker 1: other things. But there is a very political thing behind that, Like,
Speaker 1: especially with stuff like kink, there is also this desire
Speaker 1: I think, to think about sexual practices other than married,
Speaker 1: monogamous penis and vagina sex as something new or something outrageous, right,
Speaker 1: which I think is so hilarious because it's like, congratulations
Speaker 1: the church one, I guess, like, you know, like they
Speaker 1: really did a number on everyone and that's what managed
Speaker 1: to happen. But acknowledging that people do things sexually for
Speaker 1: purposes other than procreate then throws open the doors to
Speaker 1: admitting that, like people who can't procreate or don't procreate.
Speaker 3: Get to have sex.
Speaker 1: So you know, there's like a knock on effect for
Speaker 1: all of our queer friends. You know, there are a
Speaker 1: knock on effects for the way that we think about
Speaker 1: sexuality generally. And you know, we are in a very
Speaker 1: perilous place at the moment in terms of sexual freedom
Speaker 1: and sexual abilities. We're seeing a massive crackdown like you know,
Speaker 1: in the UK, we have seen like this new Online
Speaker 1: Safety Act comes in which means that like you have
Speaker 1: to give idea to access anything that the government has
Speaker 1: decided is like sexually explicit, and that can just be
Speaker 1: like a queer information in addition to like hardcore pornography, right,
Speaker 1: And so that that's the thing is that it's like
Speaker 1: it tips you over into these spaces that people think
Speaker 1: are too much, and there is invested interest into thinking
Speaker 1: that queer things or overtly sexual things, these things that
Speaker 1: exist for no other purpose than having a good time,
Speaker 1: like which is kind of like what's going on with
Speaker 1: kink that's new and somehow decadent, Like it's a it's
Speaker 1: a form of like modern decadence that we must uproot.
Speaker 3: In order to move forward.
Speaker 1: And it's very important to talk about the fact that
Speaker 1: it always existed in order to show that like you
Speaker 1: need to calm down and people are just gonna shag
Speaker 1: you probably can't. It doesn't matter what draconian measures you
Speaker 1: bring in do attempt to crack down on it.
Speaker 3: People are still going to keep doing it.
Speaker 1: Like there's nothing that you can do about that, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this seems quite often to be a like I guess,
Speaker 2: like a a rad a radical feminist like quote unquote
Speaker 2: radical feminist critique of patriarchy that like all that all
Speaker 2: at all or almost all sex with men is wrapped
Speaker 2: up in the patriarchy and it, you know, and there
Speaker 2: are these issues and all this stuff, but it always
Speaker 2: just smacks of like puritanism to me. That I mean, like,
Speaker 2: I'm not denying the patriarchy exists, nor am I denying
Speaker 2: that it has incredible undue influence on personal and sexual
Speaker 2: lives of people, but like it doesn't seem feminists to me,
Speaker 2: to my understanding of feminism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, that's just another way of telling women
Speaker 1: what to do.
Speaker 2: But like go off, you know, like I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: like I thought. The idea is that like, you know,
Speaker 2: adult I mean any women, but especially adult women, can
Speaker 2: you know, make decisions for themselves, and you know, we
Speaker 2: can respect those. They may be dumb decisions, they may
Speaker 2: be smart decisions. They may be better decisions that we
Speaker 2: would make, but you know, or worse or whatever, but
Speaker 2: they are you know, decisions. They have agency and if
Speaker 2: you have you know, if you have agency, then you
Speaker 2: know you should have the If if you have agency,
Speaker 2: as feminism, Like the definition of feminism demands you believe
Speaker 2: women have that. Then you can't just uh, you know,
Speaker 2: you can't take that agency away when it comes to
Speaker 2: things like this. People do things you may not like,
Speaker 2: you may be uncomfortable with with their agency.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's just it's the thing about like, you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of age gaps, Like, yeah, there are some that
Speaker 2: I find really weird when it's you know, like a
Speaker 2: you know, people in their late forties dating like you know,
Speaker 2: a twenty one year old. I would personally find that weird.
Speaker 2: But you know, like people make people make their own
Speaker 2: like you know, yeah, when you're an adult, you have agents,
Speaker 2: like you're supposed to have agency, and I don't. That
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that it is an influence by things. But
Speaker 2: like every decision every in May, it's fine. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: the liberal liberal feminism is not good in my opinion.
Speaker 1: As a man, we need we need to be able
Speaker 1: to hold space for people to make decisions that we
Speaker 1: do not agree with.
Speaker 3: That's the thing.
Speaker 1: And you know, anything less than that, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: like wow, Now, to be fair, like I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about Nazis because they're not people. They're not allowed to
Speaker 1: do things that I don't agree with. But you know,
Speaker 1: you can do some things that I would not be
Speaker 1: my choice sexually and you're still allowed to do it.
Speaker 1: That's all, you know, I think that it is Also
Speaker 1: there is something very specifically about sex that people think
Speaker 1: that if it's happening, it means they have to do it.
Speaker 1: And it's like, babe, it's not about you, right, you know,
Speaker 1: like you don't have.
Speaker 2: To eat, You aren't you are doing half the things.
Speaker 2: You aren't doing one one fifth of one percent of
Speaker 2: the things that everyone is doing. No one is. That's
Speaker 2: not how some of us have to get to sleep,
Speaker 2: you know. So what there is a wide and vast
Speaker 2: range of of of fine and normal consensual sexual practices
Speaker 2: that range from just being like, you know, completely ace
Speaker 2: to you know, like shout out to our friends, shout
Speaker 2: out to to like orgies, to being in a poly
Speaker 2: being in poly relationships, to like, you know, all the
Speaker 2: you know, just everything. And it's like these are all
Speaker 2: different like relationship arrangements and sexual you know, kinks or
Speaker 2: fetishes or enjoyments or whatever you want to call them.
Speaker 2: And yeah, you're not, like I'm not gay. Gay people
Speaker 2: have sex all the time. That's good for them, but
Speaker 2: like its like I just don't like.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have anything to do with us.
Speaker 2: It's not my business unless they want to, unless they
Speaker 2: make it my business for like I guess, like you know,
Speaker 2: public health reasons. I can't even think, you know, like
Speaker 2: unless it unless it was non consensual or something like that.
Speaker 2: It doesn't need It's not my bus. It's not anyone
Speaker 2: else's business unless you want to share it with him.
Speaker 2: And if you and your friends share and you talk
Speaker 2: about sex all the time, that's great, but it's still
Speaker 2: like but it's no but you know, it's no one
Speaker 2: who doesn't want to know or you don't want to know.
Speaker 2: It's not any of their business anyway. Yeah, all right,
Speaker 2: enough of that ship. Let's talk about historical BDSM. So,
Speaker 2: like briefly, the in the ancient world, we do have
Speaker 2: UH surviving examples of it. They you can go to
Speaker 2: uh the Oxford translations of of UH. It's called the
Speaker 2: Electronic text Corpus of Sumerian Literature, and you can look
Speaker 2: up the hymn to Innana and UH you can see
Speaker 2: that UH. Not only did they talk about b BDSMU
Speaker 2: style practices, these were ritualistic had a a nature both
Speaker 2: for like the public good and uh for interacting with
Speaker 2: the god, the goddess in Honna there, you know, talking
Speaker 2: about there's a mesh net that she lets down. There's
Speaker 2: punishment and moaning, but you have to you have to
Speaker 2: enter into it, uh you know, in in in good
Speaker 2: humor and in good faith. If you don't, you're doing
Speaker 2: it wrong. It has parts of it has been quoted
Speaker 2: as saying, uh imbube with pain and ecstasy, bringing about
Speaker 2: initiation and journeys of altered states of consciousness, punishment, moaning, ecstasy,
Speaker 2: lament and song participants exhausting themselves in weeping in grief.
Speaker 2: So that is BDSM apparently of a sexual or apparent yes,
Speaker 2: of a sexual but also ritualistic and uh religious way,
Speaker 2: which wasn't all that unheard of because uh, there were
Speaker 2: uh you know, ritual ritual flagellations in ancient Greece. They
Speaker 2: had those two. That wasn't something that that the Midi
Speaker 2: that medieval people just came up with on their own. Uh.
Speaker 2: There's the Etruscan Tomb of the whipping we discussed, you know,
Speaker 2: there there's a pulius there. There. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: ways that people are inducted into the mysteries and the Kamasutra. Basically, folks,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of the stuff, Yeah, a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff that survives in writing to us, and you know,
Speaker 2: it would be very difficult for you know, these are
Speaker 2: like six, five, six, seven, eight examples of just what
Speaker 2: survived to us, like it if it survived to us
Speaker 2: from that long ago, from we're talking all the way
Speaker 2: back in like four thousand BCE like up to you know,
Speaker 2: like through the ancient Greeks and Romans, like you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's a it's a widespread practice that people knew about.
Speaker 3: It's this is.
Speaker 1: One of the first things you know that people were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's write that down.
Speaker 2: At some point someone was like, hey, it feels I
Speaker 2: get it. I get man, I get a fucking boner
Speaker 2: whenever whenever I stub my toe, what oh my god,
Speaker 2: you know, and you're just like, what the hell, And yeah,
Speaker 2: it's that that realization the first person to ask to
Speaker 2: be hit at, you know, like the freedom that that
Speaker 2: had to like give them to like speak that into
Speaker 2: the world. And they were like and somebody finally agreed
Speaker 2: and they were like, yes, yep, that's.
Speaker 1: Like but yeah, cuniform, baby, Like, we need to get
Speaker 1: the ship down. Everybody needs to know about our freaky
Speaker 1: little flogging and net party.
Speaker 2: You know, take your stylus and press it into that
Speaker 2: wet clay and then get back on the fucking net.
Speaker 2: Let's go. Yeah. Now, we are ostensibly a show about
Speaker 2: the Middle Ages, so yeah, we're gonna spend the rest
Speaker 2: of the time talking about medieval attestations of this. But
Speaker 2: before we do, eleanor I have you know, I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that everyone who enjoyed BDSM at the time was
Speaker 2: into it solely because of this, but I do have
Speaker 2: difficulties separating the two because, you know, how do we
Speaker 2: talk about BDSM in within the contours of a heavily enforced, superstructural,
Speaker 2: patriarchal religion that does directly teach women to be submissive
Speaker 2: to men? Like there, it seems like there is some
Speaker 2: undue influence in that regard.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, and so and we certainly see, you know,
Speaker 1: in particularized works where it seems that people are really
Speaker 1: enjoying themselves, you know, like this being used as a
Speaker 1: way still of reinforcing particularized gender dynamics. However, what I
Speaker 1: would say is that we also have lots of medieval
Speaker 1: stuff for example, that shows us for that there are
Speaker 1: people who are doing it who are of the same sex,
Speaker 1: so you know, men who are monks.
Speaker 3: I'm talking about monks.
Speaker 1: It's monks, monks, right, It's monks who are flogging each
Speaker 1: other and seem to be having a really nice time
Speaker 1: about it. And we also see a lot of jedder
Speaker 1: versions or like with the same thing, so women being
Speaker 1: the ones doing the flogging to men. So yes, like
Speaker 1: sometimes there are instances in which where this is just
Speaker 1: seems like, oh yeah, well, what we're doing is an
Speaker 1: incredibly extreme form of cultivating relationships with women as dominated.
Speaker 1: But we also have lots of evidence for women as
Speaker 1: dominate tours. And I mean, indeed, I think that when
Speaker 1: we look at things like courtly loved literature, that's what
Speaker 1: that is. You know, it doesn't necessarily need to be
Speaker 1: about physical violence. You know, it could also be about
Speaker 1: like forms of control and who is able to control
Speaker 1: varying relationships, you know, and we do tend to see
Speaker 1: in these areas women actually having a lot more control
Speaker 1: than one would otherwise think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean that is you know, that
Speaker 2: is good and I mean I think, you know, you
Speaker 2: can't discount just you know, the general feelings that people
Speaker 2: have about you know, have for these things, and that
Speaker 2: they they you know that they wouldn't have had them regardless,
Speaker 2: because I mean it seems like people have been having
Speaker 2: them for a very long time. But you know, there
Speaker 2: is just something about that as their no doubt, would
Speaker 2: have been for the ancient Sumerians who would have lived
Speaker 2: under a similar patriarchy. I mean, this one is differently
Speaker 2: would have been differently enforced and differently felt because Ananos
Speaker 2: a female goddess. But you know it's uh, no doubt
Speaker 2: those those societal strictures were playing onto this to some degree. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So so yeah, that brings us to folks, We are
Speaker 2: back with a friend of the show, one mister Peter Abbalard,
Speaker 2: and he got muse slash underage girlfriend, slash willing considual
Speaker 2: partner Eloise eleanor what what were these two crazy kids
Speaker 2: up to?
Speaker 3: And you know, God, they fucked so much.
Speaker 1: That so much sex Ablard and Eloise, like you know, notably,
Speaker 1: but as part of it. One of the things that
Speaker 1: they had going on, right is it especially when they
Speaker 1: were having sex because That's the thing is like the
Speaker 1: relationship is really front loaded with the sex, right, It's
Speaker 1: like Alard becomes her teacher. Now, I mean talk about
Speaker 1: problematic edge gap relationships, yes, talk about relationships that I
Speaker 1: would argue in our context are one hundred percent like
Speaker 1: not appropriate. I will say it every day. I don't
Speaker 1: care how they're old they are. Don't shag your students,
Speaker 1: you know, shout out to everyone.
Speaker 3: Else who teaches at university level.
Speaker 1: Don't do that.
Speaker 2: Please, don't get yourself put in charge of a student
Speaker 2: so you can shag them. Yeah, I wish.
Speaker 1: I just really think you should do that, which is
Speaker 1: what Abilard does. And so like you know, Abilard is
Speaker 1: a bad man, Like I want.
Speaker 3: To make that clear.
Speaker 1: But they are shagging all the time. But they're not
Speaker 1: supposed to be shagging obviously because they're unmarried and Abillard
Speaker 1: is a member of the clergy, so he's not supposed
Speaker 1: to be shagging because you know, everyone who teaches that
Speaker 1: university has to be members.
Speaker 2: Of the clergy.
Speaker 1: So one of the things they do to cover up
Speaker 1: the fact that they're shagging is Abilard will like hit
Speaker 1: Eloise in front of other people all the time. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: a thing that is true about the medieval period is
Speaker 1: there's rather a lot of hate think people as part
Speaker 1: of the pedacultural experience. There's a lot more beating involved
Speaker 1: with the schoolroom.
Speaker 3: I mean, like it's weird. Ask your parents about it.
Speaker 1: They used to get beat a lot, very strange.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of like there's a lot bound
Speaker 2: up in spanking and whipping of children and just yeah,
Speaker 2: it's yeah, yeah there. I am not I am not
Speaker 2: in any way well versed enough in these things to
Speaker 2: go into that, but I mean there's a lot there.
Speaker 2: And if you've ever been around culture that like tries
Speaker 2: to reinforce spanking and stuff like that, it's pretty clear
Speaker 2: how fucking weird and creepy it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and basically that's just like out there, right,
Speaker 1: So it isn't weird that able Art would be hitting Eloise.
Speaker 1: But what they're specifically attempting to do is mask the
Speaker 1: fact that they're having a sexual relationship by doing this
Speaker 1: in front of other people, because it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: this way, it will seem like Abilard thinks Alouise is
Speaker 1: an idiot and therefore wouldn't want to shag her at
Speaker 1: Eloise and Abialard both talk about this and there they
Speaker 1: talk about the blows being as tender as any kisses,
Speaker 1: as sweet as any kisses. Like for them, they're they're
Speaker 1: like also getting off on it. They're like getting off
Speaker 1: on the fact that they're having this this really charged
Speaker 1: and violent back and forth in front of other people.
Speaker 1: And so there's there is also kind of like a
Speaker 1: display element to this, you know, like a little bit
Speaker 1: of posturing that's happening, and you know this will all
Speaker 1: come to a head eventually with Abilard get his dick
Speaker 1: and balls cut off. So I mean, actually I don't
Speaker 1: know about his balls, but his dick, which will you know,
Speaker 1: invert this in an interesting way. But know, Eloise for
Speaker 1: years talks about how horny she still is for able
Speaker 1: art and how much she loved that shit and how
Speaker 1: it's great, and Albard is like, I don't have a
Speaker 1: dick and balls anymore.
Speaker 3: Stop talking to me like this.
Speaker 2: I cannot talk about this anymore. And she's like, no,
Speaker 2: do you remember like that time?
Speaker 3: And he's like, I swear to God, stop it.
Speaker 2: You know, I have a phantom dick, woman, do you
Speaker 2: understand what a phantom pain is? Now? What about a
Speaker 2: phantom erection, a phantom boner, no.
Speaker 1: The phantom blue balls, Oh no, phantom fasso cones.
Speaker 2: I do not feel bad for Abelard. He was a
Speaker 2: piece of shit. However, Jesus fucking christ Man never just
Speaker 2: killed like just kill someone like, ah, just kill him
Speaker 2: like they're like at that point you are doing that's
Speaker 2: a torture fetish like period like that, that's what that is.
Speaker 2: You were just I mean, and the and they would
Speaker 2: have been like, yeah, so what but yeah still fuck off.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, that is uh Abelard and Eloise, you know, which, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I think we can see that there was
Speaker 2: a heavy religious aspect to this. There was a very
Speaker 2: uh creepy aspect to these relationships, as there were with
Speaker 2: many uh with many many relationships even today and and
Speaker 2: even worse in the past in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: But also that uh you know, they were both really
Speaker 2: into this until one of them couldn't be anymore and
Speaker 2: was very sad about it, which you know, I feel
Speaker 2: for him in that one respect anyway. Yeah, speaking of
Speaker 2: uh male monks who really just you know, got in
Speaker 2: so much trouble and had to be disciplined so so often. Uh,
Speaker 2: Guibert of Nogant, who was actually a contemporary and uh
Speaker 2: student of one hilde Guard of being another friend of
Speaker 2: the show, but eleanor uh not, we're not talking about
Speaker 2: Hildy today. What what did our good friend Guibert do?
Speaker 1: Uh? So Homeboys? So he's a Benedictine monk, right, And
Speaker 1: also like this is an interesting one where you can
Speaker 1: go hmmm, because he had like an interesting relationship with.
Speaker 3: His mother as well.
Speaker 1: Like he was like, we'll just say, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't like to pathologize kink. I think that people can
Speaker 1: just be a kinky.
Speaker 3: Because they want to.
Speaker 1: But you know, like he just have like a super
Speaker 1: kind of overbearing mom that he writes about all the time.
Speaker 2: Uh. And and like it's just like he's like Skinner
Speaker 2: in uh he's looking out the and and Psycho he's
Speaker 2: looking out the window and he's looking up at the
Speaker 2: house and he's like, no, mother, I won't wear that
Speaker 2: sailor suit again. What are you talking about? No? And
Speaker 2: all the other monks are like Jesus fucking Christ.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So like she does this like a number on Homeboy,
Speaker 1: and like he's kind of like isolated and he gets
Speaker 1: he gets like a private tutor from her, and the
Speaker 1: tutor beats him a lot, okay, and you'd be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's bad. But let me tell you what homeboy writes
Speaker 1: about it. So direct quote, however oppressive he was, my
Speaker 1: master made it clear to me in all kinds of
Speaker 1: different ways that he loved me no less than he
Speaker 1: loved himself. As for me, though I was somewhat clumsy
Speaker 1: and shy for my age, okay, like Bella from fucking
Speaker 1: like Twilight, I had such a liking for him, stripped
Speaker 1: as my poor little skin may have been by his
Speaker 1: many whiplashes, that I obeyed him, not out of fear,
Speaker 1: as would generally be the case in relationships like these,
Speaker 1: but I have some curious feeling of love which overwhelmed
Speaker 1: my whole being and made me forget all his harshness.
Speaker 2: Buddy dog Alfoy, I'm not pathologizing anything, and I don't
Speaker 2: like to read into like every monk was gay, every ab,
Speaker 2: every nun was gay. No, they weren't. They weren't all gay.
Speaker 2: Like a lot of them had extremely sincere religious beliefs.
Speaker 2: A lot of them were just like, I have to
Speaker 2: be here otherwise they're going to drag me back or
Speaker 2: my dad will kill me or whatever. But I mean,
Speaker 2: like when they're right in this shit, come on, like,
Speaker 2: just oh on on that that is that is one
Speaker 2: hundred percent of a sexual nature. Nature that it's one
Speaker 2: a person not only justifying like the abuse, the actual
Speaker 2: abuse that they suffered, but justifying the fact that they
Speaker 2: get off on it, which I mean it was not
Speaker 2: I don't I'm not saying that's wrong. I don't think
Speaker 2: that's wrong. It we Bear clearly was a kid when
Speaker 2: this was happening to him. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: like it's very clear that he was like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: this is so awesome. I like, please, I'm such a
Speaker 2: naughty boy.
Speaker 1: And you know, he needs you to know about it, right,
Speaker 1: Like this is his little autobiography. He's telling you his
Speaker 1: memoir and he's like, think you gotta understand about me?
Speaker 3: Is I loved getting beaten by my tutor.
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, dude, Like, you know, leaving a lasting
Speaker 1: record of your life and this is the thing that
Speaker 1: you really want people to know.
Speaker 2: Fine, fine, Like you're not that you studied with one
Speaker 2: of the greatest geniuses who ever lived, one of the
Speaker 2: true few true polymeats in the history of the world, Hildegard,
Speaker 2: not that you experienced ecstatic visions that people believed you
Speaker 2: were one of the few men who just really got
Speaker 2: to get away with this stuff, like in the way
Speaker 2: that women did. And Nope, it's this guy was beating
Speaker 2: me with one hand while I was receiving the beating
Speaker 2: also with one hand, like like every yeah he's being
Speaker 2: jerked off on while he's jerked like it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's loving it. He's loving life.
Speaker 4: And you know, good for him, you know, and I
Speaker 4: must respect it. I've got to respect I got you know,
Speaker 4: I got no, I got no you know, no shame
Speaker 4: in that, dude. But like, it really is funny that
Speaker 4: you were just like yeah that you know that one,
Speaker 4: Like Okay, that's that's.
Speaker 2: What we're that's what posterity is gonna remember. Cool. And
Speaker 2: then I mean, you know, there are famous tales that
Speaker 2: would have been pop culture for them, they were just
Speaker 2: passed to us as like myth and legend. Now, but uh,
Speaker 2: Saint Sebastian famously of the getting shot with a bunch
Speaker 2: of a tweak getting shot with so so many arrows
Speaker 2: and being so so almost naked, and then uh Saint Barbara,
Speaker 2: who uh you know, she of the having breast removed
Speaker 2: and then growing back as a miracle.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, so like you got a bunch of this, right,
Speaker 1: So we I love to talk about Saint Sebastian with
Speaker 1: us because it's like one of the few, like kind
Speaker 1: of over.
Speaker 3: Queer spaces, right.
Speaker 1: Like, so we come to these readings of religious art
Speaker 1: in particular ways, right, because the thing of it is
Speaker 1: you might look at these and be like, Jesus, this
Speaker 1: seems incredibly horny. Maybe I'm just being a modern person,
Speaker 1: but like you need to calm down, because everyone is
Speaker 1: always horny, right.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: I'm always talking about that particular quote that we have
Speaker 1: from that guy in the sixteenth century who is a
Speaker 1: convert to Protestantism, and he's like, yeah, I like Protestantism
Speaker 1: because I was always so horny and turned on whenever
Speaker 1: I looked at statues of the Virgin Mary in church. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it always just so you know, like it was
Speaker 1: really unholy of me because I was like so busy
Speaker 1: getting horny for it. So we we know from their
Speaker 1: own mouths that this stuff turns then on. So when
Speaker 1: you see pictures of Saint Sebastian tied to pull full
Speaker 1: of arrows being like, h like you and you're like
Speaker 1: that seems pretty horny. Yeah it is. So there's this
Speaker 1: really great uh Saint Barbara.
Speaker 3: I mean, like the the St. Sebastian wants are mirrored,
Speaker 3: they're everywhere.
Speaker 1: But there's like this like fourteenth century Saint Barbara alter
Speaker 1: that was made by this guy, Master Franca, and it's
Speaker 1: in the National Museum at Finland now and Sat Barbara
Speaker 1: is just like tied up to this pole and like
Speaker 1: titties are out and also like armpit height. You know,
Speaker 1: she's got the pot belly, she's got it all right,
Speaker 1: and she's just like how hum well, everyone just starts
Speaker 1: like getting ready to cut her titties off right like
Speaker 1: while everyone's like beating her.
Speaker 3: And she's just got this completely placid expression.
Speaker 2: And it's ah, this is so nice.
Speaker 1: Finally, finally, right. And we see this also really similarly,
Speaker 1: especially with the Saint Agatha of Sicily. I paid good
Speaker 1: money for a picture of Saint Agatha of Sicily in
Speaker 1: my book getting this done to her. So she's another
Speaker 1: one where her titties get cut off. Don't worry, Saint
Speaker 1: Peter shows up and they grow back.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't I wouldn't wory no oh no, no, I just
Speaker 2: I was the way the way I paid good money
Speaker 2: for that, and it was like you were an art collector.
Speaker 2: You're like, all right, so I'll take them, I'll take that,
Speaker 2: and go I'll take this, and then that one of
Speaker 2: the titties being cut off, please delivered directly to my months. Sorry,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent like this is what people are like
Speaker 1: asking though, like you know the people who are like,
Speaker 1: oh yes, and then I'll have a Saint Barbara, right,
Speaker 1: It's like it's illicit pornography, right, It's.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, oh yes, it's an.
Speaker 1: Excuse at the very least to look at a picture
Speaker 1: of a beautiful woman with her titty out, you know,
Speaker 1: and then no one can get mad at you. And
Speaker 1: then above that, it's an excuse to look at beautiful
Speaker 1: women with their titties out who are also experiencing pain,
Speaker 1: we're experiencing violence. But both Saint Barbara and Saint Agatha
Speaker 1: in these situations are just like oh ho hum right
Speaker 1: and now okay.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, oh oh oh bother.
Speaker 1: Like one of the reasons that they are they have
Speaker 1: these placid expressions is that they're they're willing to suffer
Speaker 1: for Jesus, right, you know, like obviously they' they're willing
Speaker 1: to suffer further space or they're getting off on it
Speaker 1: because they're having an ecstatic Yay, Yeah, it's happening. I'm
Speaker 1: finally dying for Jesus like I always wanted to. But
Speaker 1: we are almost certainly being invited to take this sexually,
Speaker 1: you know, to think about ourselves as the tortures, or indeed,
Speaker 1: think about ourselves as the saint, like put ourselves in
Speaker 1: their shoes and experience this ecstasy.
Speaker 3: As a result of violence and pain, right.
Speaker 1: You know, because we are being told to understand that
Speaker 1: that is what is happening, one way or another. Now
Speaker 1: you're not supposed to sexualize it, but you know, these
Speaker 1: people are getting off on pictures of the Virgin Mary.
Speaker 2: So I'm afraid they were drawing the vagina wounds of Christ.
Speaker 2: Like there is no way to read that other than
Speaker 2: people sublimating their own sexual desires at these images, at
Speaker 2: these images of what is supposed to be to them,
Speaker 2: the perfect man and he's buff and he looks great,
Speaker 2: and you know he's just rippling muscles up on the cross,
Speaker 2: and you're like, there's no way that those two things
Speaker 2: are not coming together. And what these people are doing
Speaker 2: is drawing a form of pornography that is acceptable for
Speaker 2: like that that is like that is acceptable for them
Speaker 2: to do at the time because it is a form
Speaker 2: of religious acceptable religious expression and fervance.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, And you can read it how you want.
Speaker 1: That's that is the point of audiences, and that's what
Speaker 1: gives it plausible deniability, and that's why these images were
Speaker 1: able to be made, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. Yeah, Yeah, it's uh, folks, Uh, you know,
Speaker 2: it's a rich tapestry. We got a couple of more things,
Speaker 2: uh before Well, we've got one that that elare really
Speaker 2: wants to get to. We'll say it for a last
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about you know, the
Speaker 2: Bediism and the so called chivalric tradition. So, I mean
Speaker 2: there is stuff here. There is love service, there is
Speaker 2: you know, doing these acts of selflessness, sometimes public humiliation
Speaker 2: sometimes you know, things like that. How how are these
Speaker 2: how do you medievals see these two things as as
Speaker 2: tied together in any way or do?
Speaker 1: I mean, certainly we do. And I mean one of
Speaker 1: the big ways of looking at this is you know,
Speaker 1: again I'm always going on about dan More. I know
Speaker 1: you're all tired of hearing it, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: do it anyway. You know. One of the big things
Speaker 1: that they talk about, specifically in Courtly Loved tropes is
Speaker 1: this idea of suffering and suffering is being innate to
Speaker 1: love and as indeed being necessary for love. And more particularly,
Speaker 1: it talks about the suffering that men need to experience
Speaker 1: in order to experience love. And to an extent, what
Speaker 1: that is about is kind of like proving to a
Speaker 1: woman that she should put herself into a situation where
Speaker 1: she kind of faces appropriate appropriation or you know, damaging
Speaker 1: her own reputation, which can be very dangerous for married women. Right,
Speaker 1: So you need to prove to women that you're willing
Speaker 1: to to, you know, go through it in order to
Speaker 1: win somebody's love. Right. And so we see this then
Speaker 1: play out all the time in varying ways, but we
Speaker 1: see it, for example, in our theory Ona, right, and
Speaker 1: this comes up in particularly in particularly this comes up
Speaker 1: in particular in the Night of the.
Speaker 3: Cart which is the first.
Speaker 1: Story if memory serves, where in Lancelot and Guenevere become
Speaker 1: lovers and the entire thing Hinges repeatedly on Lancelot's humiliation.
Speaker 1: There's not anything physical. It's not about you know, him
Speaker 1: being like beaten by Gwenevere or whipped by Gwenevere or anything.
Speaker 1: But it's about the one hundred percent flat out humiliation
Speaker 1: he's willing to go through for her. So, for example,
Speaker 1: it's called a night of the cart because you know, basically,
Speaker 1: Guenevere gets kidnapped and then this dwarf is like, I
Speaker 1: know where she is and i'll take you to her,
Speaker 1: but you have to ride in this cart. And you're
Speaker 1: supposed to understand that that's bad, right, It's bad that
Speaker 1: someone should ride in a cart, because if you're a knight,
Speaker 1: you don't ride in a cart. Knights ride on a horse.
Speaker 1: And indeed, when the dwarf says all this, GWayne is
Speaker 1: there with Lancelot, and Gwen is like, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: ride no fucking cart, right.
Speaker 2: I'm here for plot. I'm here to confirm the plot.
Speaker 1: So we understand that Lancelot is hot for Guenevere because
Speaker 1: he's willing to ride in the cart, right, He's willing
Speaker 1: to be shamed in order.
Speaker 3: To experience her love. And you know, like blah, blah.
Speaker 1: Blah, go through it, lots of tests, walk over a
Speaker 1: bridge of swords, things like that, right, and then like
Speaker 1: at the end, he's supposed to come back and fight
Speaker 1: a duel in a year, because that's what you do
Speaker 1: in our theory. Ona and Gueneverea goes, if you really
Speaker 1: love me, you'll lose the duel, which would be like humiliating, right,
Speaker 1: And then he's like, okay, girl, for you, I will like,
Speaker 1: I'll absolutely throw this fight. I'm willing to be humiliated
Speaker 1: in front of all my homies. But then halfway through
Speaker 1: she decides that like she's done with that shit and
Speaker 1: is like, oh, actually beat.
Speaker 3: Him up anyway. And then he like wins with ease.
Speaker 1: So and this is kind of one of this itself
Speaker 1: is a way of talking about courtly love as a
Speaker 1: trope and courtly love relationships because in order to win
Speaker 1: the ultimate victory, right, you have to submit yourself to
Speaker 1: the woman in question. So you submit yourself to the woman,
Speaker 1: You submit yourself to the degradation, you submit yourself to
Speaker 1: the humiliation. And by those means, you know, as we
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, like by being a hot light sub,
Speaker 1: you actually have the power and the relationship because you're winning.
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, you get this relationship
Speaker 3: with guenever.
Speaker 1: And you see this come up over and over and
Speaker 1: over in courtly love literature. This this willingness to subjugate
Speaker 1: with itself, this willingness to be humiliated in public. And
Speaker 1: then that is how you know you have a really
Speaker 1: good relationship, right.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm hmm, yeah, yeah, there's you know, there's no
Speaker 2: no way to read that other than you know, do this,
Speaker 2: do this for me now, and yeah, and embarrass yourself
Speaker 2: in front of your friends. And he's like, yes, ma'am, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess any any time.
Speaker 1: We could also like do I guess in here a
Speaker 1: shout out to like the Aristotle pony play thing too,
Speaker 1: which is important. So it's like there is it's very popular.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: There's a very popular medieval story, you know, because like
Speaker 1: Aristotle's on the books as being Alexander the greats Tutor.
Speaker 1: Medieval people love this, so they they like to h
Speaker 1: they like very particularly to write about this time when
Speaker 1: he must have been in his service, and there's the
Speaker 1: story that goes that like, uh, while this happens, like
Speaker 1: Aristotle is trying to like tell Alexander the Great like
Speaker 1: don't be too in love with your white Phyllis, uh,
Speaker 1: which had no problem, and he's like, you know, because
Speaker 1: you know if you get too into sex, then you
Speaker 1: know that would be bad and you'll just be thinking
Speaker 1: about that all the time. Right. So anyway, uh, Phillis
Speaker 1: gets pissed off and she's like, Okay, well you know
Speaker 1: what is I'm gonna do. I'm gonna make Aristotle horny
Speaker 1: for me, and that's going to teach him an important
Speaker 1: lesson question mark. Anyway, so like eventually he's like a
Speaker 1: down bad. He definitely wants to get with Phyllis, and
Speaker 1: Phyllis is like, yeah, okay to do the basement, like
Speaker 1: you know, I needed to do, uh, the the courtly
Speaker 1: love ritual wherein you debase yourself for me. So like
Speaker 1: basically she's like a come to me wearing like a
Speaker 1: little saddle and a harness and carry me around like
Speaker 1: like a horse, and then I know I'll know that
Speaker 1: you're serious. And Aristotle's like yes, ma'am.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: And anyway, so here's Phyllis riding Aristotle down the hall
Speaker 1: like a pony with the little whip and then they
Speaker 1: run into Alexander the Great, and Alexander the Great is like.
Speaker 2: Question, is is this part of the is this part
Speaker 2: of the nose sex thing? And he's like fuck, He's like,
Speaker 2: fuck your boyfriend and leave me alone.
Speaker 1: So but basically, like what happens here is that in
Speaker 1: the story, Aristotle goes yeah, because you know, actually, this
Speaker 1: proves I'm right, Because if even an old dude like
Speaker 1: me who knows better can get this horny for your
Speaker 1: wife that he's doing pony play in the hallway, wouldn't
Speaker 1: a hot young things such as you be even more
Speaker 1: likely to get too carried away and end up doing
Speaker 1: pony play. And then we all learn an important lesson.
Speaker 2: Right, which is that Alexander can watch you doing pony
Speaker 2: play with his wife and not care for some reason.
Speaker 2: Who's to say why though? Who's to say? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yep, all right?
Speaker 2: And last, but not least, I think Eleanor's favorite thing here,
Speaker 2: maybe we have a hell fresco in the city of Bologna.
Speaker 2: I believe it is from about the year fourteen to
Speaker 2: ten by who we got Giovanni da the fuck I can't.
Speaker 1: Giovanni, Yeah, it is by Giovanna de Modina.
Speaker 2: There yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: So I got a blog about this over on my website.
Speaker 1: And the reason I have a blog about this is
Speaker 1: because I got so fucking angry because, uh, we were
Speaker 1: in Bologna and I was trying to see this hell
Speaker 1: fresco and your girls a good person who listens when
Speaker 1: churches ask you not to take pictures, right. So one
Speaker 1: of the ways that the Basilica in Bologna is making
Speaker 1: money is by charging admission to go see this really
Speaker 1: good hell fresco. Now it's technically called the Chapel of
Speaker 1: the Magei because they're like, would you like to see
Speaker 1: the paintings of the Madge? And I'm like, I'll no, bitch,
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: Want to see the I want to see hell. Everyone.
Speaker 2: They have two lines, everyone here for the hell painting
Speaker 2: and everyone here for everything else, and one of them
Speaker 2: is empty.
Speaker 1: So you need to pay money to go in to
Speaker 1: go see this thing, and you're not supposed to take
Speaker 1: pictures of it, and you know that's fine.
Speaker 3: I'll go stare at it for twenty minutes. I don't
Speaker 3: really give a shit.
Speaker 1: And then when we were there, I was like, you
Speaker 1: know what, fine, Like, obviously they're selling little pamphlets of it. Well,
Speaker 1: just buy the little pamphlet in order to get the picture.
Speaker 1: But the thing is there are all kinds of sins
Speaker 1: that are being portrayed in this hell fresco. You get
Speaker 1: venial sins or worldly sins. Especially at the top there's
Speaker 1: kind of like pictures of heretics things like that. And
Speaker 1: what you got to understand about this fresco as well,
Speaker 1: is that, like you can pick out the people who
Speaker 1: are in it, Like the people looking at this would
Speaker 1: be like, oh yeah, like there's our cardinal and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, right, But down the bottom are the seven
Speaker 1: Deadly sins, and the seven deadly sins like get you
Speaker 1: further into hell. And down in the bottom right corner
Speaker 1: more particularly, there are the lustful and the lustful stuff
Speaker 1: is so incredibly horny that even if you buy the
Speaker 1: fucking pamphlet, the Catholic Church are like, I'm sorry, you're not. Nope,
Speaker 1: you know what what part? No, Like they've got zoomed
Speaker 1: in bits of like every other bit of like every
Speaker 1: other sin. Right, They're like, oh yeah, here's like the
Speaker 1: guys who are the uh, the gloss and they're getting
Speaker 1: their eyes gouged out while you eat a chicken, which
Speaker 1: is very funny. I like that a lot, but it's
Speaker 1: like the lustful stuff is so incredibly over the top
Speaker 1: horny that they won't let you.
Speaker 3: See pictures of it.
Speaker 1: And so it's like you get, you know, the really
Speaker 1: calm and stuff where it's like, you know, the sodomites
Speaker 1: who are being spit roasted and looking at each other.
Speaker 1: But in particular, there's this woman with the lustful and
Speaker 1: she's like breaking the fourth wall. She's looking directly at you.
Speaker 1: This is like a life sized painting of a woman
Speaker 1: and she is got these snakes coiled around her that
Speaker 1: are barbed that all the lustful do. And it's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you see you like being tied up? Well, how about
Speaker 1: in hell? And she's being choked by a demon and
Speaker 1: she's looking directly at you, and she's just like, I
Speaker 1: love this shit.
Speaker 2: It is so fun. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Like I mean, she's literally smiling, she's just beaming from
Speaker 1: ear to ear and just looking at you being like,
Speaker 1: hell yeah, brother, love choking play. And it is like
Speaker 1: intensely overwhelmingly, like shockingly fucking horny, to the point that
Speaker 1: like you were just you were not allowed to buy
Speaker 1: a picture of this. But I did buy a picture
Speaker 1: of this, right. I spent twenty five I spent twenty
Speaker 1: five quid. I went to find a hi res image
Speaker 1: of this. Uh, and indeed it is. It's now like
Speaker 1: my background on my laptop. I'm looking at it right
Speaker 1: now in order to like look at it and write
Speaker 1: about it. But you know, it's and it's not just her.
Speaker 1: There's like one horny chick who's kind of like down
Speaker 1: like being as she's sort of like tied up by
Speaker 1: the spiny snakes, and she's looking over her shoulder like
Speaker 1: ooh at like one of the demons, like oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you like that shit. There's like all these people kind
Speaker 1: of like getting poked in the bum and they're.
Speaker 2: All like one of these guys is literally being spit roasted,
Speaker 2: and he is he's first of all, wearing glasses. Second
Speaker 2: of all, he's so happy about this, and third of
Speaker 2: all is staring like a demon or perhaps another like
Speaker 2: human who's being tortured in the face and they're just like, ah,
Speaker 2: this is fucking great. I love this shit.
Speaker 1: And it's just so funny because it's like all the
Speaker 1: other tortures are just kind of like what much more like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, these people seem to be being tortured, lustful,
Speaker 1: are having the time of their deaths. They absolutely love
Speaker 1: so happy, they are just so horny about it, and
Speaker 1: like all of it is just BDSM right. They're not
Speaker 1: showing as suffering, They're showing as being absolutely ecstatic. And
Speaker 1: I don't know how you relate to this in any
Speaker 1: way other than this is like mad horny stuff. And
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but the church agrees with me, and that's
Speaker 1: why they won't let you have a picture of it.
Speaker 1: The church is like, I know what you're doing. You're
Speaker 1: looking at these people who are being like mad horny,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yes.
Speaker 3: I am.
Speaker 1: But when I do it, I am oracle. Okay, it's
Speaker 1: I'm doing it for I'm I'm actually doing this for
Speaker 1: the culture.
Speaker 3: So respect this is this is art.
Speaker 2: This is art criticism, damn it. Oh my god. Uh, folks,
Speaker 2: that is a lot about b d S. M antiquity
Speaker 2: in the Middle Ages and even today. Uh. But we
Speaker 2: hope you learned a lot, because uh there's a lot
Speaker 2: there and it is uh it is fun to uh
Speaker 2: to try and impact all this because you know, we
Speaker 2: know that people have been enjoying BDSM for a very
Speaker 2: long time. And uh, you know, sometimes anana just lets
Speaker 2: down her fishing net and you gotta climb into it
Speaker 2: and uh get ritually fucked Otherwise, Uh, you know, the
Speaker 2: last the priests of Mardook are gonna be real fucking
Speaker 2: pissed about this. You you guys better get in here
Speaker 2: and be happy about it, or we're all going to
Speaker 2: be in trouble and there's not going to be any
Speaker 2: good crops this year. So get in the net. God
Speaker 2: damn it, folks, the DSM has been around for a
Speaker 2: long time. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Regardless of
Speaker 2: if you are a participant or not much with everything else,
Speaker 2: you shouldn't solely care about it because of how it
Speaker 2: will affect you. But if people cut this out of
Speaker 2: you know, culture and pop culture and everything like that,
Speaker 2: you know they're going to be cutting a lot of
Speaker 2: other stuff too, and eventually they'll get to something you
Speaker 2: do actually care about, and yeah, that is not you know,
Speaker 2: shouldn't be selfish about it. But if you need a
Speaker 2: bigger reason other than it's bad to do that, there
Speaker 2: you go. Because eventually they're going to get to the
Speaker 2: point where they're like, yeah, you can't, you have to
Speaker 2: you know, only missionary and you're like, fuck, god.
Speaker 3: Damn it, that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah anyway, Yeah, that's that's what we got for today, folks. Please,
Speaker 2: you know, thank you for listening, Thank you for checking
Speaker 2: us out. Please subscribe to the Patreon if you're interested,
Speaker 2: check out our series on the Crusades. Yeah, eleanor what
Speaker 2: else you got in the meantime other than your.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do I have going on? Yeah, I've once
Speaker 1: a gotten done a bunch of other people's podcasts, so
Speaker 1: those will be coming up. Look for me soon, I think,
Speaker 1: not yet on Cancel Me daddy. Uh so that that's
Speaker 1: that's coming up, But I mean, for now, you can
Speaker 1: obviously check out Welcome to the Crusades. Obviously check out
Speaker 1: my book The Once in Future Sex, especially if you
Speaker 1: want to see some of these horny.
Speaker 3: Pictures we were just talking about.
Speaker 1: Ye got him, we got him in there. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm on the socials at Going Medieval. Yeah
Speaker 1: you know I'm around in the area.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, that's all right, folks. You can find me
Speaker 2: normal places. You can find me at Luca's Amazing on
Speaker 2: the socials and you can find my I'll show people's
Speaker 2: story of the Old Republic. If you want to hear
Speaker 2: me talk about Star Wars, but yeah, thank you very
Speaker 2: much for listening, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Bye.
Speaker 3: By