WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:05.919
<v Speaker 1>Hello from an Echoe hotel in Amsterdam.

2
00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:11.560
<v Speaker 2>Hello, Every every day is a new adventure with you.

3
00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:13.519
<v Speaker 2>Where are we going to be, what's going to happen?

4
00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right, that's right. So you know, I'm taking

5
00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:23.399
<v Speaker 1>advantage of the fact that my boyfriend is an internationally

6
00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:28.679
<v Speaker 1>renowned trainer of sex educators, and sometimes they let him

7
00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:31.719
<v Speaker 1>go to Amsterdam, and then I say I could go

8
00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:36.399
<v Speaker 1>to Amsterdam, and then suddenly I'm recording in an Echoe hotel.

9
00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:37.960
<v Speaker 3>Room, and that's what happens.

10
00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:43.679
<v Speaker 1>That's just how it be. Sometimes I did for work,

11
00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:45.240
<v Speaker 1>just have to record a podcast.

12
00:00:45.479 --> 00:00:47.920
<v Speaker 3>Okay, like I listen.

13
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:51.960
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, I'm stuck on you said trainer, and you said

14
00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:55.880
<v Speaker 2>trainer of sex education people. It's really like like you

15
00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:58.439
<v Speaker 2>thought you gonna be like trainer of sex and so

16
00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:01.600
<v Speaker 2>it's just him like watching people be like, no, you.

17
00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:02.920
<v Speaker 1>You'll you can't do that.

18
00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:11.079
<v Speaker 2>Time, Martha, No, pretty much grind, grind, you look like

19
00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:16.599
<v Speaker 2>you're breaking his dick off. Woman anyway, Sorry, he's actually

20
00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:19.120
<v Speaker 2>he's actually doing real good things instead of the dumb

21
00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:20.920
<v Speaker 2>shit in my head. Go ahead, you know.

22
00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:22.599
<v Speaker 1>But on the other hand, if anyone wants to hire

23
00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:24.560
<v Speaker 1>him to do that, we could use the cash, so

24
00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:25.239
<v Speaker 1>I'll be fine.

25
00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:33.359
<v Speaker 2>Your technique is fucking awful. So I haven't even started yet.

26
00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:33.920
<v Speaker 2>Shut off.

27
00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.840
<v Speaker 1>Look I need to do but this is like I

28
00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:42.159
<v Speaker 1>need to call in to myself about the echoey situation

29
00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:48.239
<v Speaker 1>here because I'm gonna I'm gonna level with you, dear listeners,

30
00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:51.200
<v Speaker 1>who I love more than life itself. I understand this

31
00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.680
<v Speaker 1>hotel room is echoe okay for work, I just had

32
00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:56.879
<v Speaker 1>to do a podcast and in order to do it,

33
00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:02.560
<v Speaker 1>I made a blanket for it in order to like baffle,

34
00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:04.680
<v Speaker 1>and so I was in there for an hour and

35
00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:08.360
<v Speaker 1>fifteen minutes. But I can't I can't get the blanket

36
00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:11.000
<v Speaker 1>for it to not like have the blanket come down

37
00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:14.360
<v Speaker 1>on my head and it gave me a neck ache

38
00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:17.719
<v Speaker 1>because I just have like this big duvet slash comforter

39
00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.199
<v Speaker 1>or whatever you don know if you're Australian. And I

40
00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:22.080
<v Speaker 1>was just on my head the whole time and it

41
00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:23.759
<v Speaker 1>gave me an eckache and I was like, I can't

42
00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:24.000
<v Speaker 1>do it.

43
00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:25.199
<v Speaker 3>I can't do it a second time.

44
00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:28.639
<v Speaker 1>And you know what, the good listeners O were not

45
00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:31.759
<v Speaker 1>so different, deserve better. But also I'd like to see

46
00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:34.280
<v Speaker 1>you build a better blanket for it.

47
00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:37.319
<v Speaker 2>In a hotel room. Impossible.

48
00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:39.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's very difficult.

49
00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:43.080
<v Speaker 2>No, that one's yeah, that's gonna be tough. You can't

50
00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.960
<v Speaker 2>move the furniture very much. You don't have the necessary

51
00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:50.800
<v Speaker 2>sticks or chairs you need, yeah, to prop it up. Look,

52
00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't know jack shit about architecture, but I can

53
00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:55.840
<v Speaker 2>build you a mean ass for it out of some

54
00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:58.280
<v Speaker 2>blankets if you give me, like, you know, a couple

55
00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:00.240
<v Speaker 2>of chairs, and you know, you.

56
00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:02.199
<v Speaker 1>Know what I kind of need is like a lighter blanket,

57
00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:04.159
<v Speaker 1>because even with the lighter blanket it would work. But

58
00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.439
<v Speaker 1>it's just like with the heavy one.

59
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:11.039
<v Speaker 2>I got that heavy with like rated for old people,

60
00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:15.360
<v Speaker 2>and you're just like your flop sweating like in in

61
00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:19.240
<v Speaker 2>the Middle Ages. You look like you're in a sweat

62
00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:20.479
<v Speaker 2>lodge man.

63
00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:23.400
<v Speaker 1>And it's like and it's like full continental European hours

64
00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:25.479
<v Speaker 1>out here. There's no top sheet, you know. So it's

65
00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:27.919
<v Speaker 1>just like there's just this really heavy blanket.

66
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:29.120
<v Speaker 3>That's all I've got to work with.

67
00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:32.800
<v Speaker 2>I have seen an image of it, and folks, it is.

68
00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:40.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like it was whimsical the first time the second

69
00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:43.280
<v Speaker 1>time and like, you know, I already I think deserve

70
00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.080
<v Speaker 1>a pat on the back for not drinking beer. During

71
00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:49.479
<v Speaker 1>this podcast, so like you can see you can see

72
00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.199
<v Speaker 1>like the limits, Like I've got some professionality going. It's

73
00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:55.199
<v Speaker 1>just kind of like where is that? Where are the

74
00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:59.520
<v Speaker 1>limits thereof goes Yeah.

75
00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:05.199
<v Speaker 2>Yep, oh man, and blanket for that's tremendous. I've seen

76
00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:09.360
<v Speaker 2>a picture of it, folks.

77
00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:08.520
<v Speaker 3>You know.

78
00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I it looks like if you are a fan of

79
00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:21.120
<v Speaker 2>the Alien movies and Prometheus, the the ship thing that

80
00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.959
<v Speaker 2>the engineers sit in, you know, the first one you

81
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:28.839
<v Speaker 2>see is the big ship and you know, uh, he's

82
00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:31.079
<v Speaker 2>just he's just laying He's just sitting there. He's got

83
00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:36.120
<v Speaker 2>like the elephant mouth looking thing. And then in Prometheus

84
00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:38.759
<v Speaker 2>they kind of flesh it out more and that's kind

85
00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:41.879
<v Speaker 2>of what it looks like, like like sitting there and

86
00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:48.920
<v Speaker 2>just leaned back. Oh god, yeah, that's those hotel blankets

87
00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:52.639
<v Speaker 2>are rated for old people. That Yeah, you're just like, yeah,

88
00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:54.600
<v Speaker 2>it's like sweating your ass off.

89
00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:57.079
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's Amsterdam, so there isn't really air con

90
00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.560
<v Speaker 1>and I mean it's it's actually you know, the weather

91
00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:02.199
<v Speaker 1>itself is pretty nice, but you know, if you're going

92
00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:04.199
<v Speaker 1>to sit in a blanket for it, you'd probably want

93
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:08.720
<v Speaker 1>some kind of cooling thing anyway, like the point is,

94
00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:11.000
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of things.

95
00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.360
<v Speaker 3>I'll do for medieval history, but there's a there's a limit.

96
00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:19.000
<v Speaker 2>It's it's fine. It's not echoing on this, uh what

97
00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.000
<v Speaker 2>you might call it is really good about zoom is

98
00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.439
<v Speaker 2>usually pretty good about isolating it. And I'll fix it

99
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.399
<v Speaker 2>in posts if I have to. But yeah, it's fine,

100
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:31.839
<v Speaker 2>they're fine. Everything is fine.

101
00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:35.360
<v Speaker 1>It occurs to me it's so apt and appropriate to

102
00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:38.759
<v Speaker 1>be doing the kink episode. Well whilst an answerdawn.

103
00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Though, yeah, also a.

104
00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Ranting and like you know, side by side sickness has

105
00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:49.399
<v Speaker 1>really enabled something beautiful to come together.

106
00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:52.480
<v Speaker 2>So that's great, that's right. Ye, well then yeah, let's

107
00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:54.720
<v Speaker 2>uh let's use that as a segue.

108
00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:55.839
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmmm.

109
00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome back to We're Not So Different, a

110
00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:37.040
<v Speaker 2>podcast about how I've always been idiots. My name is

111
00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.399
<v Speaker 2>Luke and I am not in a blanket for it

112
00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:44.600
<v Speaker 2>an Amsterdam, and as always I am joined by doctor

113
00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Eleanor Yannage who was in one until very recently. Folks,

114
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:54.079
<v Speaker 2>it is not safe for work time here on the podcast.

115
00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.920
<v Speaker 2>But first we have patron questions. A question for Pearl

116
00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:03.399
<v Speaker 2>River Flow, how is medieval heckling done? Slash handled? Did

117
00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:06.120
<v Speaker 2>people boo bards who weren't good if someone came to

118
00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:08.160
<v Speaker 2>town to do a recital and it sucked, did they

119
00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:12.199
<v Speaker 2>really throw tomatoes? Well, not tomatoes, but you know whatever

120
00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.319
<v Speaker 2>they would have had. I know they did that stuff

121
00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.279
<v Speaker 2>during Shakespeare's time, but I feel like anyone, if anyone

122
00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:20.360
<v Speaker 2>is going to mention getting booed out of town, it

123
00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:22.680
<v Speaker 2>would be the guys writing and performing this stuff.

124
00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:28.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean for real, we do know that medieval

125
00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:33.000
<v Speaker 1>people think about performance as much more audience involved.

126
00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:33.560
<v Speaker 3>We could just.

127
00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Say that, you know, there's a lot more yelling he's

128
00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:40.839
<v Speaker 1>behind you and things of this nature. And that's partially

129
00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:44.720
<v Speaker 1>because the way that they do performance is a lot

130
00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:49.680
<v Speaker 1>more like and it could happen to you, right because

131
00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:49.879
<v Speaker 1>like that.

132
00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:53.319
<v Speaker 2>But also, I mean performance is in such a new

133
00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:57.639
<v Speaker 2>is in such a protean form compared to what we

134
00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:01.759
<v Speaker 2>think of now. You know, like, of course you're gonna

135
00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:04.600
<v Speaker 2>like that. That's how little kids are about TV now,

136
00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:08.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not like it literally is they're like these behind you, Dora,

137
00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:11.480
<v Speaker 2>these behind you know, like they do that ship you

138
00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:13.680
<v Speaker 2>know in the TV. Asked you a question, You're like yeah,

139
00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:21.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, like yeah, it's Yeahdian that's prodian art criticism, kidding.

140
00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:25.319
<v Speaker 1>One for the elder millennial cloud, you know, like screaming

141
00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:27.759
<v Speaker 1>real loud when they say the secret word on pee

142
00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:29.360
<v Speaker 1>Wee's Playhouse there.

143
00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.800
<v Speaker 2>You go out, I say Dora because it's the one

144
00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:34.200
<v Speaker 2>I remember from my kid, you know, from my kid

145
00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:37.919
<v Speaker 2>doing it, you know a few times. But yeah, yeah,

146
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:42.360
<v Speaker 2>pee Wee, Yeah, definitely Peewee's. You know, definitely screaming at

147
00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:46.799
<v Speaker 2>the animaniacs like, oh no, yeah, Peter Lourie is behind you, Like,

148
00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:49.159
<v Speaker 2>how do I know who Peter Laurie? Doesn't matter, just

149
00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:51.960
<v Speaker 2>he's right there. Whack oh, get the fuck out of

150
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.279
<v Speaker 2>the way, dude. Yeah.

151
00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like so they got a lot more. They're very

152
00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:59.879
<v Speaker 1>much encouraged to think of themselves as part of performances.

153
00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:01.799
<v Speaker 1>And indeed, a lot of the time, if you see

154
00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:04.039
<v Speaker 1>a performance, most of the time, it's not going to

155
00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:04.440
<v Speaker 1>be by.

156
00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:05.759
<v Speaker 3>Professionals, it's going to be by people.

157
00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:06.039
<v Speaker 2>You know.

158
00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.840
<v Speaker 1>It's like John's doing the mystery play this year. Yeah,

159
00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:11.440
<v Speaker 1>and that kind of a thing.

160
00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:12.120
<v Speaker 2>That's awesome.

161
00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:14.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they're gonna be a lot more like you

162
00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:17.559
<v Speaker 1>fuck it, suck John or whatever you know, to people

163
00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:23.000
<v Speaker 1>when you have like the finer and more high falutant

164
00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.440
<v Speaker 1>troops that then kind of like becomes more of a thing.

165
00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:26.159
<v Speaker 1>But still like.

166
00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.720
<v Speaker 3>These are all, as general a rule of.

167
00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.399
<v Speaker 1>Thumb, more emotive, so you know, they would kind of

168
00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:34.320
<v Speaker 1>like boo or yell or things like that, but they're

169
00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:38.320
<v Speaker 1>they're also I guess when they're booming it a lot

170
00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:39.799
<v Speaker 1>of times it tends to be more kind of like

171
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:42.679
<v Speaker 1>with the performance a lot more like they're expected to

172
00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:45.879
<v Speaker 1>do so, and we kind of like hear less about

173
00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.039
<v Speaker 1>them doing it in response to a bad performance. Now

174
00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:50.200
<v Speaker 1>we one of the reasons we know more about it

175
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.559
<v Speaker 1>from for example, Shakespeare's like by the early modern period,

176
00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:55.840
<v Speaker 1>you've moved more into this idea of like the art

177
00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:02.679
<v Speaker 1>tour as a performer, like actor as a career, and

178
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:05.759
<v Speaker 1>a play is a professional thing that you're going to see,

179
00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:08.879
<v Speaker 1>right whereas you know, for medieval people it's a lot

180
00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:11.840
<v Speaker 1>less professional. I mean, there are there are professional actors,

181
00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:13.919
<v Speaker 1>for sure, but you're not going to see them. They're

182
00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:16.720
<v Speaker 1>going to be at court, Yeah, they're going to be

183
00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:18.639
<v Speaker 1>at places like that. So you know, it's a lot

184
00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:22.919
<v Speaker 1>less common for ordinary people to have access to that stuff,

185
00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:26.200
<v Speaker 1>so we hear more about it. In the early modern

186
00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:31.120
<v Speaker 1>period because you have still that sensibility that plays are

187
00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:34.039
<v Speaker 1>interactive and that they're here for you and they're being

188
00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:39.320
<v Speaker 1>done for you, as well as the idea that these

189
00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.600
<v Speaker 1>are now people who you've paid good money to be

190
00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.679
<v Speaker 1>entertained and it's just like you know, the local mystery plays,

191
00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:47.399
<v Speaker 1>like no one's paid for this, so like you're not

192
00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:49.360
<v Speaker 1>You're not going to do people because that would that

193
00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:51.120
<v Speaker 1>would be ridiculous. I mean, even if you're a really

194
00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:54.559
<v Speaker 1>good troubadour or something and you're going around performing, you

195
00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.919
<v Speaker 1>pay them afterward. So if you don't like it, you

196
00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:00.759
<v Speaker 1>just don't pay or you wander off. And so I

197
00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:02.799
<v Speaker 1>think that there's also this kind of like barrier in

198
00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:07.279
<v Speaker 1>terms of like how payment works that really changes how

199
00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:08.279
<v Speaker 1>people see about things.

200
00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:13.200
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, yeah, I when did did they throw fruits

201
00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:15.799
<v Speaker 2>and vegetables? I really hope they did and that wasn't

202
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:17.000
<v Speaker 2>an early modern thing.

203
00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:19.360
<v Speaker 3>I'm yeah, they probably did.

204
00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:20.720
<v Speaker 1>You know, we do know that a lot of fruits

205
00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:22.559
<v Speaker 1>and vegetables get thrown at people who are in the

206
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:23.720
<v Speaker 1>stocks first.

207
00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Ah okay, okay, I like it. I like it.

208
00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:30.480
<v Speaker 1>I imagine that it probably spills over into that we

209
00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:34.279
<v Speaker 1>have fewer documents talking about it. But I am just

210
00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.639
<v Speaker 1>assuming that it happens, and that I know that it happens.

211
00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:39.919
<v Speaker 2>If they threw them at people in the stocks and

212
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.000
<v Speaker 2>they booed people who did this and like you know,

213
00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.720
<v Speaker 2>complained about the stuff, I can't imagine that it didn't

214
00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:48.120
<v Speaker 2>come to that at one point, because I mean that is,

215
00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, like when you don't have other words for

216
00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.519
<v Speaker 2>criticism other and boo is not loud or strong enough,

217
00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:57.679
<v Speaker 2>You're like, hey, what's this? Oh hey, this thing goes

218
00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:00.440
<v Speaker 2>splat and fucks up your clothes, you know, or you know,

219
00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:05.120
<v Speaker 2>hurts whatever, you know, And I'm thinking about tomatoes.

220
00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:08.320
<v Speaker 1>But they just didn't have fucking to me like a

221
00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:10.960
<v Speaker 1>lot more throwing like horse maneure o.

222
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:14.840
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, yeah, yeah.

223
00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:21.279
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well yeah proflow. Thank you for the question. Next

224
00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:24.080
<v Speaker 2>we got one from dog God, which is something I

225
00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.519
<v Speaker 2>have wondered about before too. How did medieval Christians feel

226
00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:31.960
<v Speaker 2>about burying the dead with valuable or sentimental objects? Did

227
00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:34.840
<v Speaker 2>the idea of bodily resurrection extend to the clothes they

228
00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:38.320
<v Speaker 2>were wearing or the items on their person? If not,

229
00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:41.279
<v Speaker 2>did they do it anyway? So like so you know,

230
00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:45.240
<v Speaker 2>like objects going into the grave with them, did they

231
00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:45.559
<v Speaker 2>do that.

232
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:51.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so grave objects absolutely do go in with people.

233
00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.399
<v Speaker 1>We tend to see it more in the earlier medieval period.

234
00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.080
<v Speaker 1>But by that I mean like objects, like a monopoly

235
00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:01.519
<v Speaker 1>of objects, And there's been some really great archaeological studies

236
00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:04.679
<v Speaker 1>about this where we think that perhaps in the earlier

237
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.679
<v Speaker 1>medieval period, and by this I mean, like I'm kind

238
00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:08.759
<v Speaker 1>of talking more about like the eighth century ninth century,

239
00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:14.039
<v Speaker 1>grave goods, even in Christian burials are usually super present

240
00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:19.080
<v Speaker 1>and oftentimes include weapons, and so we think that there

241
00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:23.639
<v Speaker 1>may have been more of a perception of the journey

242
00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:27.279
<v Speaker 1>to heaven or purgatory or hell or wherever it is

243
00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:31.519
<v Speaker 1>you're going as being dangerous and something that one needs

244
00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:32.360
<v Speaker 1>to have been armed for.

245
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.440
<v Speaker 3>And this is especially true of Northern Europe.

246
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, places that are a little bit different, you know,

247
00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:40.879
<v Speaker 1>like less so in the Italian lands, more.

248
00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:41.799
<v Speaker 3>So in Northern Europe.

249
00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:44.639
<v Speaker 1>So you know, you put like staves in with people,

250
00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.159
<v Speaker 1>and oftentimes you do see jewelry, you know, like people's

251
00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:53.360
<v Speaker 1>favorite jewelry, crosses, super super common things of this nature.

252
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.559
<v Speaker 1>So personal objects such as this are very common to

253
00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:01.159
<v Speaker 1>find in graves. And I think with that it's a

254
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:05.000
<v Speaker 1>little just sentimental a lot of the time. You know,

255
00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.679
<v Speaker 1>like grandma's earrings, we're going to put those on her,

256
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:11.159
<v Speaker 1>you know. And certainly we see a lot of crosses,

257
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:14.519
<v Speaker 1>just so many crosses on people, and that probably is

258
00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.720
<v Speaker 1>also could like consider to be like epipatraychal, you know,

259
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:21.360
<v Speaker 1>something that is going to ward off stuff, you know,

260
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:27.480
<v Speaker 1>in in the afterlife. It will continue through the medieval

261
00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:29.320
<v Speaker 1>period of just kind of like bearing people with their

262
00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:34.159
<v Speaker 1>nice things, like you know there but personal objects that

263
00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:37.000
<v Speaker 1>one would wear on the person later in the medieval

264
00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.639
<v Speaker 1>period and less like oh this was her cup as

265
00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:44.159
<v Speaker 1>you see earlier in the medieval period. So there does

266
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:48.080
<v Speaker 1>seem to be more of an idea and understanding that

267
00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.279
<v Speaker 1>you're going to go to some spiritual place. I mean,

268
00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:52.919
<v Speaker 1>you're not gonna need all of that, but like maybe

269
00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.000
<v Speaker 1>you know a cross would be good or you know,

270
00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:59.360
<v Speaker 1>no one could bear to where Granddad's ring anyway, so

271
00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:00.360
<v Speaker 1>we're gonna bear with.

272
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, I think the teaching that I the

273
00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:09.559
<v Speaker 2>biblical teaching that I understand both at least a modern

274
00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Catholic and Protestant is you know that when you die,

275
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:21.080
<v Speaker 2>you are like, you know, a healthy version of yourself

276
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.559
<v Speaker 2>and you go to heaven either you look like maybe

277
00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:25.399
<v Speaker 2>what you did when you passed away or like the

278
00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.720
<v Speaker 2>best version of yourself during your life. But you basically

279
00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:32.000
<v Speaker 2>get like a holy arraignment of some kind like a robe,

280
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:35.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, like you know, basically because they can't imagine

281
00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.000
<v Speaker 2>any everyone being naked, so you're you know, your clothes

282
00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.639
<v Speaker 2>something like that. But then you know you don't take

283
00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:45.279
<v Speaker 2>any you don't take anything with you, you know, because

284
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.559
<v Speaker 2>Jesus is like, you know, he's like very clear on

285
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.799
<v Speaker 2>like you should give this away. You can't take it

286
00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.279
<v Speaker 2>with you, And people are like, huh, that's interesting. Cool anyway,

287
00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:57.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, throw my expensive gold ring in the grave

288
00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.000
<v Speaker 2>with me, don't sell it to feed the family.

289
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:01.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I guess.

290
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:03.399
<v Speaker 1>Also, like a big thing that you tend to see

291
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:06.080
<v Speaker 1>in the medieval period as well, like and why you

292
00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.679
<v Speaker 1>see like fewer you know, richly buried things or whatever,

293
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:11.039
<v Speaker 1>is that there's also like a real.

294
00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:12.759
<v Speaker 3>Understanding that like, yeah, you might go to hell.

295
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:15.159
<v Speaker 1>So like even rich people will be like, can you

296
00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.600
<v Speaker 1>dress me up like a monk, you know, like.

297
00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Tonster me, And they're like what tonsure me? Now?

298
00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.120
<v Speaker 3>Like Emperor Frederick the second is buried as a month.

299
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.559
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, yeah, I remember ye, like famous ones who

300
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:32.039
<v Speaker 2>are like, uh no, tonster me and they're like, no,

301
00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.440
<v Speaker 2>like to do it? Yeah, but what do you You're

302
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.960
<v Speaker 2>not a do it? Yeah? Are you going to trick God?

303
00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Shut up?

304
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:44.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah exactly, and they're like, well, I don't know shit,

305
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:45.720
<v Speaker 3>maybe right, And then so.

306
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:53.759
<v Speaker 1>Clearly there is an idea that there can be some

307
00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:59.200
<v Speaker 1>problems based on what you're buried with, or that how

308
00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:01.559
<v Speaker 1>you were buried is going to have some kind of

309
00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:05.240
<v Speaker 1>resonance whoever's judging on the other side. But you know,

310
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:07.759
<v Speaker 1>for medieval people, there is much more of an understanding

311
00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:10.960
<v Speaker 1>that rich people are evil, so they are, especially from

312
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.720
<v Speaker 1>the High Medieval period onward, they're gonna resist that in

313
00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:18.039
<v Speaker 1>a way that you don't see now, you know.

314
00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:26.200
<v Speaker 2>Yep, yeah, well that you know that that does clear

315
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.400
<v Speaker 2>it up. Even though it's still cool to be buried

316
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:32.920
<v Speaker 2>with the sword, regardless of what happened, you know, regardless

317
00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:34.480
<v Speaker 2>of what's going on in the next life. It's cool

318
00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:37.680
<v Speaker 2>to sword, Like I just want to be buried with

319
00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.160
<v Speaker 2>like random stuff that will confuse people like like some

320
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.440
<v Speaker 2>future like historian like that, like my body is preserved somehow,

321
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:46.759
<v Speaker 2>and they're like, oh my god, he was buried with

322
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.680
<v Speaker 2>a spoon, which meant he must have loved the soup.

323
00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:54.519
<v Speaker 2>Maybe they worshiped soup.

324
00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:57.000
<v Speaker 3>You know, and like I worship soup to be fair.

325
00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah yeah, uh dog god, thank you for the question. Uh.

326
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:04.920
<v Speaker 2>If you want to ask us questions like the ease,

327
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:09.079
<v Speaker 2>please do subscribe to the Patreon at Patreon dot com

328
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.039
<v Speaker 2>at slash w n Pod five bucks a month. We

329
00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.440
<v Speaker 2>just passed six hundred patrons. That's awesome. You guys are awesome.

330
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.519
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for subscribing. Everyone else, subscribe to It'll be fun,

331
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:19.240
<v Speaker 2>all right.

332
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:24.240
<v Speaker 3>Also, seven hundred subscribers will build the for it again.

333
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:27.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, we'll rebuild the blanket for it in a

334
00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:31.880
<v Speaker 2>hotel room in Amsterdam and do a live Oh my god,

335
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:34.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm just probably it's seven hundred.

336
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.839
<v Speaker 1>Local fly to Amsterdam. We'll build a blanket.

337
00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:42.279
<v Speaker 2>For it, do a lot and do a live episode.

338
00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:46.240
<v Speaker 2>There's right, yep, uh yeah, Patreon dot com slash w

339
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:51.440
<v Speaker 2>Nasty Pod. Uh, there's almost ninety bonus episodes. All other episodes.

340
00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:56.400
<v Speaker 1>Patreon has a goal like it blank and for.

341
00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:59.119
<v Speaker 3>Podcastank it for it live show.

342
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and if you haven't checked it out yet, check

343
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.400
<v Speaker 2>out our series Welcome to the Crusades. The first Crusade

344
00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:10.519
<v Speaker 2>with the American Prestige Guys UK and go to Welcome

345
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:15.000
<v Speaker 2>to the Crusades dot com to get it for ten dollars. Patrons,

346
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.720
<v Speaker 2>check out your emails and stuff for a code to

347
00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:23.279
<v Speaker 2>get twenty percent off. Anyway, all right, real quick, just

348
00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:25.480
<v Speaker 2>a warning, folks, You're about to have a frank discussion

349
00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:28.279
<v Speaker 2>about people engaging in BDSM in the pre modern world

350
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:31.400
<v Speaker 2>and the sexual anerotic practices surrounding it, with some jokes

351
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.920
<v Speaker 2>thrown in as is our wont it's going to be

352
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:36.400
<v Speaker 2>very not safe for work. Now. There is nothing wrong

353
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.839
<v Speaker 2>with talking about sex and joking about it or anything

354
00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:42.359
<v Speaker 2>like that. However, this is just a warning so that

355
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.039
<v Speaker 2>you know going in that it might be a bad

356
00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.000
<v Speaker 2>idea to listen to this rendy coworkers or your boss,

357
00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:50.960
<v Speaker 2>or a young impressional child or just anyone. You might

358
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.079
<v Speaker 2>not want to hear this sort of thing, so maybe

359
00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:54.680
<v Speaker 2>save it for later listening if you're in one of

360
00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.720
<v Speaker 2>those situations, or hey, go right ahead and listen. Now.

361
00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.440
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing wrong with talking about sex, you know, and

362
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.079
<v Speaker 2>just you know, don't blame us if your ten year

363
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.519
<v Speaker 2>old starts asking about the ancient Etruscan BDSM tomb slash

364
00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:09.640
<v Speaker 2>cum dungeon. Thanks.

365
00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:14.640
<v Speaker 1>I can't say Tom come com dungeon.

366
00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:19.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah he could. I just did that. It just

367
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:21.799
<v Speaker 3>doesn't work as well.

368
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:27.440
<v Speaker 2>The dungeon come to him. Yep uh. In nineteen sixty,

369
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:32.880
<v Speaker 2>an Italian man named Carlo Lerici was excavating a site

370
00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.400
<v Speaker 2>near Tarquinia, a small town and large ruin that sits

371
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.920
<v Speaker 2>along the western coast of the boot of Italy, when

372
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.640
<v Speaker 2>he made a fascinating discovery. Now this is nothing new.

373
00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:44.480
<v Speaker 2>You can hardly throw a spade in the dirt on

374
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:48.480
<v Speaker 2>the Peninsula without hitting an ancient Roman pottery shard or road.

375
00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:51.960
<v Speaker 2>They famously can't dig underground in Rome without finding new

376
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:55.119
<v Speaker 2>pieces of history to excavate, so they just don't do it.

377
00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.640
<v Speaker 2>Yet this discovery in Tarquinia was different. It wasn't from

378
00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:02.920
<v Speaker 2>the Room Imperial era and likely dates back to within

379
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.759
<v Speaker 2>two decades of the founding of the Roman Republic circa

380
00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:09.599
<v Speaker 2>five o nine BCE. However, this place wasn't even Roman.

381
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:13.160
<v Speaker 2>It actually belonged to the Etruscans, a classical confederation of

382
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.799
<v Speaker 2>city states that directly or indirectly held land stretching from

383
00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:20.119
<v Speaker 2>Mantua in the north to Campania in the south from

384
00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.680
<v Speaker 2>seven to fifty to around four to fifty. The Etruscans

385
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:26.640
<v Speaker 2>are a well attested civilization, with troves of their art,

386
00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:31.279
<v Speaker 2>tools and buildings surviving, but only tiny fragments of their riding,

387
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.599
<v Speaker 2>which means we typically define them by what the Romans

388
00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:38.160
<v Speaker 2>and Greeks said about them, and since Atruria was one

389
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.599
<v Speaker 2>of the Roman Republic's earliest victims in terms of territorial conquest,

390
00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:45.599
<v Speaker 2>it was slandered thusly, as the losing side often is.

391
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Even so, archaeological rimnants that shed more light on their

392
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.440
<v Speaker 2>thoughts and ideas have survived into modern times, especially huge

393
00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:58.519
<v Speaker 2>burial complexes known as necropolee or cities of the Dead.

394
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Interesting part of one of these necropolis was discovered by

395
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Carlo l Rici in nineteen sixty. It was a small

396
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.160
<v Speaker 2>tomb composed of a single chamber the size of a

397
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.440
<v Speaker 2>small house or a large studio apartment in the wider

398
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Montrosi Necropolis outside Tarquinia. The presence of such tomb is

399
00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:23.079
<v Speaker 2>not uncommon in Montrosi. That is the point of the place,

400
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:25.839
<v Speaker 2>after all, it's what's intide the tomb that stands out

401
00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:29.480
<v Speaker 2>and lends it a name. Now known as the Tomb

402
00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:32.720
<v Speaker 2>of the Whipping. The structure was at once a work

403
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.720
<v Speaker 2>of art imbued with ritual significance, meant to ward off

404
00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:39.480
<v Speaker 2>evil spirits, a liminal space with false doors leading to

405
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:44.000
<v Speaker 2>an underworld, and undeniable proof that people have been engaging

406
00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:47.319
<v Speaker 2>in BDSM for a very long time. How could we

407
00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:49.640
<v Speaker 2>possibly know this about a tomb built by a civilization

408
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.279
<v Speaker 2>in which very little writing survives, and that was forgotten

409
00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.880
<v Speaker 2>about and buried for more than a thousand years. Well,

410
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:01.119
<v Speaker 2>you see, the Etruscans healthily left us an unmistakable clue, namely,

411
00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:03.880
<v Speaker 2>a giant mural depicting two men and a woman in

412
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.720
<v Speaker 2>a threesome in what we might call an Eiffel Tower

413
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.039
<v Speaker 2>style scenario. A beardless man is fucking the woman from

414
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.440
<v Speaker 2>behind while holding a whip, whilst she is simultaneously philating

415
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.680
<v Speaker 2>a bearded man who appears to be spanking her back.

416
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:21.519
<v Speaker 2>This is flanked by a false wall that contains a

417
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.960
<v Speaker 2>secret door leading out another image of two people, likely

418
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.599
<v Speaker 2>engaging in intercourse the millennia of wear and tear have

419
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.519
<v Speaker 2>left it questionable. Is also flanked by a false door.

420
00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:33.359
<v Speaker 2>The rest of the Tomb of the Whipping contains murals

421
00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:38.200
<v Speaker 2>of new musicians, dancers, and and boxers. We don't exactly

422
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:41.319
<v Speaker 2>know the context for this vivid portrayal of BDSM, as

423
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:44.799
<v Speaker 2>it has been implied that such sexually explicit images serve

424
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:50.960
<v Speaker 2>apotropaic purposes, apotrophic purposes of warding off demons and evil spirits,

425
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:54.200
<v Speaker 2>and may have been ritualistic in nature, or just a

426
00:23:54.279 --> 00:23:57.000
<v Speaker 2>nice mural of three people engage against some fun kink.

427
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:58.799
<v Speaker 2>But we do know for a fact that you don't

428
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.599
<v Speaker 2>make a mural like this portraying these acts unless these

429
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:07.160
<v Speaker 2>acts are commonly understood within your society. You know that's

430
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.960
<v Speaker 2>not how people really do that. So don't let anyone

431
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:12.920
<v Speaker 2>anywhere tell you that BDSM in such forms of kink

432
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:16.839
<v Speaker 2>are modern or postmodern phenomena. We've been doming and subbing

433
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:19.880
<v Speaker 2>for far, far longer than that. So today we're going

434
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:22.720
<v Speaker 2>to talk about BDSM in antiquity in the Middle Ages.

435
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Why it's nothing new, And you know what this tells

436
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:29.000
<v Speaker 2>us about ourselves. Eleanor before we go any further. You

437
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.200
<v Speaker 2>are a historian of sex, and quite a good one

438
00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:35.559
<v Speaker 2>at that. Can you please explain what we're talking about

439
00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:38.640
<v Speaker 2>when we say BDSM. We all no doubt have ideas

440
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:42.240
<v Speaker 2>in our heads, but you know, what practices are we

441
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:45.279
<v Speaker 2>talking about here? And how far are you know? How

442
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.000
<v Speaker 2>far are we going with this? Yeah?

443
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:50.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean good question, because you know there's BDSM and

444
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:55.319
<v Speaker 1>then there's kink more generally, and BDSM obviously sits within

445
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:58.359
<v Speaker 1>the window kink, but it's not all kink because I

446
00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:00.680
<v Speaker 1>don't know, like your kink could to be like giving

447
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:03.720
<v Speaker 1>someone a nice foot massage and that's not very bdsny.

448
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:09.319
<v Speaker 1>So you know BDSM specifically stansor of bondage discipline and

449
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:17.000
<v Speaker 1>sado masochism, So it involves more explicitly giving and receiving

450
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:26.200
<v Speaker 1>painful things, oftentimes tying people up, and ideas about power play,

451
00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:29.839
<v Speaker 1>so you know, moving around with the idea of like

452
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:33.759
<v Speaker 1>who who is up, who is down? Who has the

453
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.440
<v Speaker 1>power in this particular situation.

454
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:39.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, So there's a lot of stuff that.

455
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:41.680
<v Speaker 1>You can do within that. You know, it could just

456
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:46.039
<v Speaker 1>be like something like you know, dressing up and you know,

457
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:50.759
<v Speaker 1>playing games, you know, with with like calling people varying names,

458
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:53.559
<v Speaker 1>or you know, you could be like flogging people, you

459
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:55.960
<v Speaker 1>know and doing serious stuff like that. But it's a

460
00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:59.400
<v Speaker 1>pretty wide umbrella. But it's just as a general rule

461
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:02.920
<v Speaker 1>of what we mean is that there's power play involved,

462
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:05.759
<v Speaker 1>there might be pain involved, and there might be being

463
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:06.839
<v Speaker 1>tied up involved.

464
00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:14.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I uh so, you know, speaking from like a

465
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.920
<v Speaker 2>clinical perspective, you know, a lot of people might find

466
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:21.200
<v Speaker 2>this might not be for them, and it might even

467
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:23.559
<v Speaker 2>kind of scare them or freak them out. I personally

468
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:28.039
<v Speaker 2>am not a fan of u you know, uh, violent

469
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:32.440
<v Speaker 2>or aggressive acts like this, you know, from a sexual perspective,

470
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:35.519
<v Speaker 2>But a lot of people are you know, consenting adults

471
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:37.359
<v Speaker 2>who are perfectly fine with this stuff. So, like, from

472
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:41.640
<v Speaker 2>a clinical perspective, is is this like a sexual deviance?

473
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Because people because you know, we really don't think of

474
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:49.359
<v Speaker 2>like violence and sex going together like this often. So like,

475
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:51.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, can you clear that up for people who

476
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:52.519
<v Speaker 2>might be a little squeamish about it?

477
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:53.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

478
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean I think that there is a tendency, you know,

479
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.720
<v Speaker 1>especially because you know, this is where consent comes in.

480
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:01.440
<v Speaker 1>Oh no, my boyfriend is going to listen to this,

481
00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:02.759
<v Speaker 1>and I'm going to get consent wrong.

482
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:05.519
<v Speaker 3>It's gonna be Yeah.

483
00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:09.640
<v Speaker 1>But so you know that the magical thing in every

484
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:13.400
<v Speaker 1>single human interaction, like whether that be sexual or whether

485
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.279
<v Speaker 1>it be ordering a pizza to quote by a boyfriend's

486
00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:22.640
<v Speaker 1>excellent book Can We talk about consent? Is is? Consent

487
00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:25.200
<v Speaker 1>is this thing about getting along in terms of going

488
00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 1>along with what the other person wants. And that isn't

489
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.000
<v Speaker 1>just saying yes.

490
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:30.640
<v Speaker 3>Or no out loud with our mouths.

491
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.720
<v Speaker 1>It's about tuning into that other person, reading situations very carefully,

492
00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:39.960
<v Speaker 1>and going with things. You know. So for example, you know,

493
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:42.480
<v Speaker 1>with ordering a pizza, you might just be like, Okay, look,

494
00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:44.359
<v Speaker 1>here are some things that I definitely do not want

495
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:47.200
<v Speaker 1>to do or cannot do, Like if you're allergic to something,

496
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:48.880
<v Speaker 1>you'll be like, hey, would love to eat a pizza,

497
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:51.880
<v Speaker 1>but cannot eat X thing on my pizza, right, and

498
00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:54.359
<v Speaker 1>then people would have to do it within those confines.

499
00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Same thing can be true of sex, right, So people

500
00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:03.720
<v Speaker 1>who are interested in doing stuff like BDSM have to

501
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.240
<v Speaker 1>get way better at the consent thing, right. Like that's

502
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:09.960
<v Speaker 1>because since it is more advanced in terms of the

503
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 1>fact that like people can get really.

504
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.319
<v Speaker 3>Hurt and you have to be very very careful.

505
00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:17.200
<v Speaker 1>It means that you also have to get incredibly good

506
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:21.000
<v Speaker 1>at negotiating what things are going to be done and

507
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.279
<v Speaker 1>also in terms of how things go forward. And indeed,

508
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:28.000
<v Speaker 1>often people who are doing things within the king community

509
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:31.359
<v Speaker 1>are a little bit better with that than the average individual.

510
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:35.359
<v Speaker 1>And also within that, I think that what a lot

511
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.599
<v Speaker 1>of people who are into BDS actually say is that

512
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:44.319
<v Speaker 1>oftentimes you know, the bottom if that's the term that

513
00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:49.319
<v Speaker 1>you want to use, or the s the sub Ultimately,

514
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:53.240
<v Speaker 1>those are the people who the power lies with a

515
00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:55.079
<v Speaker 1>lot of the time, because they're the ones who are saying,

516
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:56.359
<v Speaker 1>this is kind of like what we're going to do

517
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:57.920
<v Speaker 1>and where it's going to go, and like I draw

518
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:00.519
<v Speaker 1>the line at where we stop, kind of like a

519
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:04.960
<v Speaker 1>wink wink, nudge nudge, like oh, I'm so helpless. Yeah

520
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:08.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, well but really you're the one who's like, no, yes,

521
00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:11.039
<v Speaker 1>blah blah blah. It is what people would say. But yeah,

522
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:13.640
<v Speaker 1>I think that it is important to point out that

523
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:17.039
<v Speaker 1>when you do things that are physically painful, you have

524
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:23.799
<v Speaker 1>a burden of care to be incredibly careful with people

525
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:24.920
<v Speaker 1>and to be good.

526
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:25.960
<v Speaker 3>At checking in with others.

527
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:34.200
<v Speaker 1>So you know, that is what underpins practices of BDSM

528
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:38.920
<v Speaker 1>these days. You know, I can say less obviously from

529
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:42.559
<v Speaker 1>a historical context, because we don't have so many BDSM

530
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:48.759
<v Speaker 1>manuals from the past unfortunately, But yeah, it is ultimately

531
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.720
<v Speaker 1>a performance, right again, like something that that everyone is

532
00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.839
<v Speaker 1>agreeing to do. So that's what is important to keep

533
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.400
<v Speaker 1>an eye on. And instead of thinking that that just

534
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.799
<v Speaker 1>means anything goes, indeed, it doesn't mean anything goes. And

535
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:06.559
<v Speaker 1>oftentimes people who are BDSM practitioners have to be much much, much,

536
00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:10.599
<v Speaker 1>much much more careful than anyone else otherwise would.

537
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:16.519
<v Speaker 2>Be Yeah, yeah, so that is uh, you know, that's

538
00:30:16.599 --> 00:30:19.680
<v Speaker 2>just the more modern context for what BDSM is and

539
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:24.240
<v Speaker 2>what we're talking about. So as longtime listeners will know,

540
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:27.119
<v Speaker 2>both Eleanor and I subscribe to the idea that there's

541
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:31.039
<v Speaker 2>really nothing new under the sexual sun, as it were,

542
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:33.759
<v Speaker 2>and even though we can't always see direct evidence of it,

543
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:38.359
<v Speaker 2>humans have been engaging in similar sexual acts basically since

544
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:40.720
<v Speaker 2>humans have been around. Or to put it more bluntly,

545
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:43.559
<v Speaker 2>people didn't invent just being tied up for sexual purposes

546
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:49.839
<v Speaker 2>in like nineteen sixty five. So who is it that

547
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:53.880
<v Speaker 2>thinks BDSM hasn't existed for a long time? And what

548
00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:59.200
<v Speaker 2>is the reasoning behind this idea? Like why does it matter?

549
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:00.119
<v Speaker 1>So?

550
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, people love them. I guess that people like.

551
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:05.480
<v Speaker 1>To pretend that sex in general was invented in the

552
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:10.359
<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixties, right, Like, and you know there's a part

553
00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:12.880
<v Speaker 1>of this, which is that it squicks people out to

554
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:14.839
<v Speaker 1>think about the fact that like their parents were banging,

555
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:17.599
<v Speaker 1>or that their grandparents were banging, or any of those

556
00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:21.960
<v Speaker 1>other things. But there is a very political thing behind that, Like,

557
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:27.839
<v Speaker 1>especially with stuff like kink, there is also this desire

558
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:33.680
<v Speaker 1>I think, to think about sexual practices other than married,

559
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:43.480
<v Speaker 1>monogamous penis and vagina sex as something new or something outrageous, right,

560
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:46.039
<v Speaker 1>which I think is so hilarious because it's like, congratulations

561
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:48.920
<v Speaker 1>the church one, I guess, like, you know, like they

562
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.559
<v Speaker 1>really did a number on everyone and that's what managed

563
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:58.480
<v Speaker 1>to happen. But acknowledging that people do things sexually for

564
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:02.200
<v Speaker 1>purposes other than procreate then throws open the doors to

565
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:07.640
<v Speaker 1>admitting that, like people who can't procreate or don't procreate.

566
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:08.079
<v Speaker 3>Get to have sex.

567
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:10.960
<v Speaker 1>So you know, there's like a knock on effect for

568
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.960
<v Speaker 1>all of our queer friends. You know, there are a

569
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.400
<v Speaker 1>knock on effects for the way that we think about

570
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:20.960
<v Speaker 1>sexuality generally. And you know, we are in a very

571
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:25.759
<v Speaker 1>perilous place at the moment in terms of sexual freedom

572
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:29.839
<v Speaker 1>and sexual abilities. We're seeing a massive crackdown like you know,

573
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:34.359
<v Speaker 1>in the UK, we have seen like this new Online

574
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:36.759
<v Speaker 1>Safety Act comes in which means that like you have

575
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:41.759
<v Speaker 1>to give idea to access anything that the government has

576
00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:45.839
<v Speaker 1>decided is like sexually explicit, and that can just be

577
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:50.279
<v Speaker 1>like a queer information in addition to like hardcore pornography, right,

578
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.160
<v Speaker 1>And so that that's the thing is that it's like

579
00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:55.759
<v Speaker 1>it tips you over into these spaces that people think

580
00:32:55.839 --> 00:32:59.240
<v Speaker 1>are too much, and there is invested interest into thinking

581
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:02.880
<v Speaker 1>that queer things or overtly sexual things, these things that

582
00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:06.440
<v Speaker 1>exist for no other purpose than having a good time,

583
00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:08.640
<v Speaker 1>like which is kind of like what's going on with

584
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:13.319
<v Speaker 1>kink that's new and somehow decadent, Like it's a it's

585
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:18.000
<v Speaker 1>a form of like modern decadence that we must uproot.

586
00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:19.000
<v Speaker 3>In order to move forward.

587
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.839
<v Speaker 1>And it's very important to talk about the fact that

588
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:24.960
<v Speaker 1>it always existed in order to show that like you

589
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:28.359
<v Speaker 1>need to calm down and people are just gonna shag

590
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:32.960
<v Speaker 1>you probably can't. It doesn't matter what draconian measures you

591
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:34.480
<v Speaker 1>bring in do attempt to crack down on it.

592
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:35.839
<v Speaker 3>People are still going to keep doing it.

593
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:37.720
<v Speaker 1>Like there's nothing that you can do about that, you know.

594
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:47.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this seems quite often to be a like I guess,

595
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:53.759
<v Speaker 2>like a a rad a radical feminist like quote unquote

596
00:33:53.839 --> 00:34:00.319
<v Speaker 2>radical feminist critique of patriarchy that like all that all

597
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:05.559
<v Speaker 2>at all or almost all sex with men is wrapped

598
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:09.280
<v Speaker 2>up in the patriarchy and it, you know, and there

599
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:12.719
<v Speaker 2>are these issues and all this stuff, but it always

600
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:16.440
<v Speaker 2>just smacks of like puritanism to me. That I mean, like,

601
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:20.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm not denying the patriarchy exists, nor am I denying

602
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:26.000
<v Speaker 2>that it has incredible undue influence on personal and sexual

603
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:32.559
<v Speaker 2>lives of people, but like it doesn't seem feminists to me,

604
00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:34.840
<v Speaker 2>to my understanding of feminism.

605
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, that's just another way of telling women

606
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:38.320
<v Speaker 1>what to do.

607
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:41.400
<v Speaker 2>But like go off, you know, like I mean, yeah,

608
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.039
<v Speaker 2>like I thought. The idea is that like, you know,

609
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:49.000
<v Speaker 2>adult I mean any women, but especially adult women, can

610
00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:53.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, make decisions for themselves, and you know, we

611
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:55.960
<v Speaker 2>can respect those. They may be dumb decisions, they may

612
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.199
<v Speaker 2>be smart decisions. They may be better decisions that we

613
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:01.119
<v Speaker 2>would make, but you know, or worse or whatever, but

614
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:04.559
<v Speaker 2>they are you know, decisions. They have agency and if

615
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:09.639
<v Speaker 2>you have you know, if you have agency, then you

616
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:16.159
<v Speaker 2>know you should have the If if you have agency,

617
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:20.039
<v Speaker 2>as feminism, Like the definition of feminism demands you believe

618
00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:23.480
<v Speaker 2>women have that. Then you can't just uh, you know,

619
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:26.119
<v Speaker 2>you can't take that agency away when it comes to

620
00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:28.920
<v Speaker 2>things like this. People do things you may not like,

621
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.960
<v Speaker 2>you may be uncomfortable with with their agency.

622
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:32.159
<v Speaker 1>You know.

623
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:35.480
<v Speaker 2>It's just it's the thing about like, you know, a

624
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of age gaps, Like, yeah, there are some that

625
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.320
<v Speaker 2>I find really weird when it's you know, like a

626
00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:42.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, people in their late forties dating like you know,

627
00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.719
<v Speaker 2>a twenty one year old. I would personally find that weird.

628
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:50.679
<v Speaker 2>But you know, like people make people make their own

629
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:54.079
<v Speaker 2>like you know, yeah, when you're an adult, you have agents,

630
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:56.079
<v Speaker 2>like you're supposed to have agency, and I don't. That

631
00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:58.599
<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean that it is an influence by things. But

632
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:02.480
<v Speaker 2>like every decision every in May, it's fine. Yeah, and

633
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:06.599
<v Speaker 2>the liberal liberal feminism is not good in my opinion.

634
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:10.559
<v Speaker 1>As a man, we need we need to be able

635
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:12.760
<v Speaker 1>to hold space for people to make decisions that we

636
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:13.639
<v Speaker 1>do not agree with.

637
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:14.920
<v Speaker 3>That's the thing.

638
00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:19.519
<v Speaker 1>And you know, anything less than that, uh, you know,

639
00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:21.639
<v Speaker 1>like wow, Now, to be fair, like I'm not talking

640
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:23.960
<v Speaker 1>about Nazis because they're not people. They're not allowed to

641
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:26.239
<v Speaker 1>do things that I don't agree with. But you know,

642
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.880
<v Speaker 1>you can do some things that I would not be

643
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:33.079
<v Speaker 1>my choice sexually and you're still allowed to do it.

644
00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:36.360
<v Speaker 1>That's all, you know, I think that it is Also

645
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:39.679
<v Speaker 1>there is something very specifically about sex that people think

646
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:41.880
<v Speaker 1>that if it's happening, it means they have to do it.

647
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:45.159
<v Speaker 1>And it's like, babe, it's not about you, right, you know,

648
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:46.039
<v Speaker 1>like you don't have.

649
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.039
<v Speaker 2>To eat, You aren't you are doing half the things.

650
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:53.639
<v Speaker 2>You aren't doing one one fifth of one percent of

651
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.239
<v Speaker 2>the things that everyone is doing. No one is. That's

652
00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:58.800
<v Speaker 2>not how some of us have to get to sleep,

653
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:00.960
<v Speaker 2>you know. So what there is a wide and vast

654
00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:07.280
<v Speaker 2>range of of of fine and normal consensual sexual practices

655
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.679
<v Speaker 2>that range from just being like, you know, completely ace

656
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.519
<v Speaker 2>to you know, like shout out to our friends, shout

657
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:19.960
<v Speaker 2>out to to like orgies, to being in a poly

658
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:24.119
<v Speaker 2>being in poly relationships, to like, you know, all the

659
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, just everything. And it's like these are all

660
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:32.480
<v Speaker 2>different like relationship arrangements and sexual you know, kinks or

661
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 2>fetishes or enjoyments or whatever you want to call them.

662
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:40.800
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, you're not, like I'm not gay. Gay people

663
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:44.239
<v Speaker 2>have sex all the time. That's good for them, but

664
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:47.239
<v Speaker 2>like its like I just don't like.

665
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:48.960
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't have anything to do with us.

666
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.840
<v Speaker 2>It's not my business unless they want to, unless they

667
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:57.159
<v Speaker 2>make it my business for like I guess, like you know,

668
00:37:57.519 --> 00:38:00.400
<v Speaker 2>public health reasons. I can't even think, you know, like

669
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:06.400
<v Speaker 2>unless it unless it was non consensual or something like that.

670
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.719
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't need It's not my bus. It's not anyone

671
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:10.559
<v Speaker 2>else's business unless you want to share it with him.

672
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:12.719
<v Speaker 2>And if you and your friends share and you talk

673
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:14.960
<v Speaker 2>about sex all the time, that's great, but it's still

674
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:17.519
<v Speaker 2>like but it's no but you know, it's no one

675
00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:19.480
<v Speaker 2>who doesn't want to know or you don't want to know.

676
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:22.760
<v Speaker 2>It's not any of their business anyway. Yeah, all right,

677
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:26.000
<v Speaker 2>enough of that ship. Let's talk about historical BDSM. So,

678
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:29.519
<v Speaker 2>like briefly, the in the ancient world, we do have

679
00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:34.880
<v Speaker 2>UH surviving examples of it. They you can go to

680
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:43.039
<v Speaker 2>uh the Oxford translations of of UH. It's called the

681
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:47.360
<v Speaker 2>Electronic text Corpus of Sumerian Literature, and you can look

682
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:50.800
<v Speaker 2>up the hymn to Innana and UH you can see

683
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:56.480
<v Speaker 2>that UH. Not only did they talk about b BDSMU

684
00:38:56.679 --> 00:39:01.000
<v Speaker 2>style practices, these were ritualistic had a a nature both

685
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:06.800
<v Speaker 2>for like the public good and uh for interacting with

686
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:09.440
<v Speaker 2>the god, the goddess in Honna there, you know, talking

687
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:12.920
<v Speaker 2>about there's a mesh net that she lets down. There's

688
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:17.159
<v Speaker 2>punishment and moaning, but you have to you have to

689
00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:20.159
<v Speaker 2>enter into it, uh you know, in in in good

690
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:22.480
<v Speaker 2>humor and in good faith. If you don't, you're doing

691
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:26.719
<v Speaker 2>it wrong. It has parts of it has been quoted

692
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:30.239
<v Speaker 2>as saying, uh imbube with pain and ecstasy, bringing about

693
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:35.360
<v Speaker 2>initiation and journeys of altered states of consciousness, punishment, moaning, ecstasy,

694
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:39.360
<v Speaker 2>lament and song participants exhausting themselves in weeping in grief.

695
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:45.800
<v Speaker 2>So that is BDSM apparently of a sexual or apparent yes,

696
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:50.599
<v Speaker 2>of a sexual but also ritualistic and uh religious way,

697
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:55.960
<v Speaker 2>which wasn't all that unheard of because uh, there were

698
00:39:56.079 --> 00:40:01.480
<v Speaker 2>uh you know, ritual ritual flagellations in ancient Greece. They

699
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:04.760
<v Speaker 2>had those two. That wasn't something that that the Midi

700
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.280
<v Speaker 2>that medieval people just came up with on their own. Uh.

701
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:13.679
<v Speaker 2>There's the Etruscan Tomb of the whipping we discussed, you know,

702
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:19.320
<v Speaker 2>there there's a pulius there. There. There's a lot of

703
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:26.000
<v Speaker 2>ways that people are inducted into the mysteries and the Kamasutra. Basically, folks,

704
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.679
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of the stuff, Yeah, a lot of

705
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:34.519
<v Speaker 2>the stuff that survives in writing to us, and you know,

706
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:37.559
<v Speaker 2>it would be very difficult for you know, these are

707
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:41.519
<v Speaker 2>like six, five, six, seven, eight examples of just what

708
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:45.400
<v Speaker 2>survived to us, like it if it survived to us

709
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.440
<v Speaker 2>from that long ago, from we're talking all the way

710
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:51.920
<v Speaker 2>back in like four thousand BCE like up to you know,

711
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:55.519
<v Speaker 2>like through the ancient Greeks and Romans, like you know,

712
00:40:56.039 --> 00:40:59.599
<v Speaker 2>it's it's a it's a widespread practice that people knew about.

713
00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:00.519
<v Speaker 3>It's this is.

714
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:04.360
<v Speaker 1>One of the first things you know that people were like, yeah,

715
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:05.360
<v Speaker 1>let's write that down.

716
00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:09.119
<v Speaker 2>At some point someone was like, hey, it feels I

717
00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:11.440
<v Speaker 2>get it. I get man, I get a fucking boner

718
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:15.119
<v Speaker 2>whenever whenever I stub my toe, what oh my god,

719
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:17.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, and you're just like, what the hell, And yeah,

720
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.079
<v Speaker 2>it's that that realization the first person to ask to

721
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.880
<v Speaker 2>be hit at, you know, like the freedom that that

722
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.320
<v Speaker 2>had to like give them to like speak that into

723
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:28.400
<v Speaker 2>the world. And they were like and somebody finally agreed

724
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:32.199
<v Speaker 2>and they were like, yes, yep, that's.

725
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:35.679
<v Speaker 1>Like but yeah, cuniform, baby, Like, we need to get

726
00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:37.960
<v Speaker 1>the ship down. Everybody needs to know about our freaky

727
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:39.639
<v Speaker 1>little flogging and net party.

728
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:43.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, take your stylus and press it into that

729
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:46.760
<v Speaker 2>wet clay and then get back on the fucking net.

730
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:52.239
<v Speaker 2>Let's go. Yeah. Now, we are ostensibly a show about

731
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:56.679
<v Speaker 2>the Middle Ages, so yeah, we're gonna spend the rest

732
00:41:56.719 --> 00:42:00.559
<v Speaker 2>of the time talking about medieval attestations of this. But

733
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:07.360
<v Speaker 2>before we do, eleanor I have you know, I'm not

734
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.840
<v Speaker 2>saying that everyone who enjoyed BDSM at the time was

735
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:13.800
<v Speaker 2>into it solely because of this, but I do have

736
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:18.519
<v Speaker 2>difficulties separating the two because, you know, how do we

737
00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:26.719
<v Speaker 2>talk about BDSM in within the contours of a heavily enforced, superstructural,

738
00:42:26.840 --> 00:42:31.360
<v Speaker 2>patriarchal religion that does directly teach women to be submissive

739
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:35.320
<v Speaker 2>to men? Like there, it seems like there is some

740
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.320
<v Speaker 2>undue influence in that regard.

741
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.519
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, absolutely, and so and we certainly see, you know,

742
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:48.760
<v Speaker 1>in particularized works where it seems that people are really

743
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:53.360
<v Speaker 1>enjoying themselves, you know, like this being used as a

744
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:59.159
<v Speaker 1>way still of reinforcing particularized gender dynamics. However, what I

745
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:02.079
<v Speaker 1>would say is that we also have lots of medieval

746
00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:06.199
<v Speaker 1>stuff for example, that shows us for that there are

747
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:08.239
<v Speaker 1>people who are doing it who are of the same sex,

748
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.159
<v Speaker 1>so you know, men who are monks.

749
00:43:11.320 --> 00:43:12.280
<v Speaker 3>I'm talking about monks.

750
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:16.400
<v Speaker 1>It's monks, monks, right, It's monks who are flogging each

751
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:18.000
<v Speaker 1>other and seem to be having a really nice time

752
00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:22.239
<v Speaker 1>about it. And we also see a lot of jedder

753
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:26.880
<v Speaker 1>versions or like with the same thing, so women being

754
00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:31.159
<v Speaker 1>the ones doing the flogging to men. So yes, like

755
00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:35.719
<v Speaker 1>sometimes there are instances in which where this is just

756
00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:38.559
<v Speaker 1>seems like, oh yeah, well, what we're doing is an

757
00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:47.559
<v Speaker 1>incredibly extreme form of cultivating relationships with women as dominated.

758
00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:50.320
<v Speaker 1>But we also have lots of evidence for women as

759
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:53.079
<v Speaker 1>dominate tours. And I mean, indeed, I think that when

760
00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:57.400
<v Speaker 1>we look at things like courtly loved literature, that's what

761
00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:02.639
<v Speaker 1>that is. You know, it doesn't necessarily need to be

762
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:06.360
<v Speaker 1>about physical violence. You know, it could also be about

763
00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:10.400
<v Speaker 1>like forms of control and who is able to control

764
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:13.760
<v Speaker 1>varying relationships, you know, and we do tend to see

765
00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:18.360
<v Speaker 1>in these areas women actually having a lot more control

766
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:20.400
<v Speaker 1>than one would otherwise think.

767
00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:25.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, well, I mean that is you know, that

768
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:29.079
<v Speaker 2>is good and I mean I think, you know, you

769
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:34.880
<v Speaker 2>can't discount just you know, the general feelings that people

770
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.199
<v Speaker 2>have about you know, have for these things, and that

771
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:41.840
<v Speaker 2>they they you know that they wouldn't have had them regardless,

772
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:43.679
<v Speaker 2>because I mean it seems like people have been having

773
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:46.119
<v Speaker 2>them for a very long time. But you know, there

774
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:49.800
<v Speaker 2>is just something about that as their no doubt, would

775
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.719
<v Speaker 2>have been for the ancient Sumerians who would have lived

776
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:57.239
<v Speaker 2>under a similar patriarchy. I mean, this one is differently

777
00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:00.679
<v Speaker 2>would have been differently enforced and differently felt because Ananos

778
00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:04.039
<v Speaker 2>a female goddess. But you know it's uh, no doubt

779
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:09.760
<v Speaker 2>those those societal strictures were playing onto this to some degree. Yeah.

780
00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:15.559
<v Speaker 2>So so yeah, that brings us to folks, We are

781
00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:18.920
<v Speaker 2>back with a friend of the show, one mister Peter Abbalard,

782
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:27.199
<v Speaker 2>and he got muse slash underage girlfriend, slash willing considual

783
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:32.639
<v Speaker 2>partner Eloise eleanor what what were these two crazy kids

784
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:33.079
<v Speaker 2>up to?

785
00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:36.400
<v Speaker 3>And you know, God, they fucked so much.

786
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:41.239
<v Speaker 1>That so much sex Ablard and Eloise, like you know, notably,

787
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:44.000
<v Speaker 1>but as part of it. One of the things that

788
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.719
<v Speaker 1>they had going on, right is it especially when they

789
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:48.320
<v Speaker 1>were having sex because That's the thing is like the

790
00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:51.960
<v Speaker 1>relationship is really front loaded with the sex, right, It's

791
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:55.719
<v Speaker 1>like Alard becomes her teacher. Now, I mean talk about

792
00:45:55.800 --> 00:46:00.760
<v Speaker 1>problematic edge gap relationships, yes, talk about relationships that I

793
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:05.599
<v Speaker 1>would argue in our context are one hundred percent like

794
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:10.280
<v Speaker 1>not appropriate. I will say it every day. I don't

795
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:12.599
<v Speaker 1>care how they're old they are. Don't shag your students,

796
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:15.159
<v Speaker 1>you know, shout out to everyone.

797
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:16.400
<v Speaker 3>Else who teaches at university level.

798
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Don't do that.

799
00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Please, don't get yourself put in charge of a student

800
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:22.199
<v Speaker 2>so you can shag them. Yeah, I wish.

801
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:24.320
<v Speaker 1>I just really think you should do that, which is

802
00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:26.599
<v Speaker 1>what Abilard does. And so like you know, Abilard is

803
00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:28.159
<v Speaker 1>a bad man, Like I want.

804
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:28.679
<v Speaker 3>To make that clear.

805
00:46:29.559 --> 00:46:31.960
<v Speaker 1>But they are shagging all the time. But they're not

806
00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:35.320
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be shagging obviously because they're unmarried and Abillard

807
00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:38.159
<v Speaker 1>is a member of the clergy, so he's not supposed

808
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:40.239
<v Speaker 1>to be shagging because you know, everyone who teaches that

809
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:42.119
<v Speaker 1>university has to be members.

810
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:42.320
<v Speaker 2>Of the clergy.

811
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:45.639
<v Speaker 1>So one of the things they do to cover up

812
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:49.400
<v Speaker 1>the fact that they're shagging is Abilard will like hit

813
00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:55.800
<v Speaker 1>Eloise in front of other people all the time. Unfortunately,

814
00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:59.000
<v Speaker 1>a thing that is true about the medieval period is

815
00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:00.880
<v Speaker 1>there's rather a lot of hate think people as part

816
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:07.519
<v Speaker 1>of the pedacultural experience. There's a lot more beating involved

817
00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:10.079
<v Speaker 1>with the schoolroom.

818
00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:12.199
<v Speaker 3>I mean, like it's weird. Ask your parents about it.

819
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:16.079
<v Speaker 1>They used to get beat a lot, very strange.

820
00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a lot of like there's a lot bound

821
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:28.000
<v Speaker 2>up in spanking and whipping of children and just yeah,

822
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:33.360
<v Speaker 2>it's yeah, yeah there. I am not I am not

823
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:39.559
<v Speaker 2>in any way well versed enough in these things to

824
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:42.320
<v Speaker 2>go into that, but I mean there's a lot there.

825
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:45.719
<v Speaker 2>And if you've ever been around culture that like tries

826
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:49.800
<v Speaker 2>to reinforce spanking and stuff like that, it's pretty clear

827
00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:51.360
<v Speaker 2>how fucking weird and creepy it is.

828
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:56.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean, and basically that's just like out there, right,

829
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:59.840
<v Speaker 1>So it isn't weird that able Art would be hitting Eloise.

830
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:03.119
<v Speaker 1>But what they're specifically attempting to do is mask the

831
00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:05.519
<v Speaker 1>fact that they're having a sexual relationship by doing this

832
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:07.320
<v Speaker 1>in front of other people, because it's like, oh, well,

833
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.920
<v Speaker 1>this way, it will seem like Abilard thinks Alouise is

834
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:14.599
<v Speaker 1>an idiot and therefore wouldn't want to shag her at

835
00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Eloise and Abialard both talk about this and there they

836
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:23.400
<v Speaker 1>talk about the blows being as tender as any kisses,

837
00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:26.679
<v Speaker 1>as sweet as any kisses. Like for them, they're they're

838
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:29.159
<v Speaker 1>like also getting off on it. They're like getting off

839
00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:33.639
<v Speaker 1>on the fact that they're having this this really charged

840
00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:39.119
<v Speaker 1>and violent back and forth in front of other people.

841
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:41.880
<v Speaker 1>And so there's there is also kind of like a

842
00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.360
<v Speaker 1>display element to this, you know, like a little bit

843
00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:48.039
<v Speaker 1>of posturing that's happening, and you know this will all

844
00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:50.840
<v Speaker 1>come to a head eventually with Abilard get his dick

845
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:53.920
<v Speaker 1>and balls cut off. So I mean, actually I don't

846
00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:57.559
<v Speaker 1>know about his balls, but his dick, which will you know,

847
00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:01.360
<v Speaker 1>invert this in an interesting way. But know, Eloise for

848
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:05.000
<v Speaker 1>years talks about how horny she still is for able

849
00:49:05.079 --> 00:49:07.360
<v Speaker 1>art and how much she loved that shit and how

850
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:09.159
<v Speaker 1>it's great, and Albard is like, I don't have a

851
00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:10.159
<v Speaker 1>dick and balls anymore.

852
00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:12.199
<v Speaker 3>Stop talking to me like this.

853
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:17.960
<v Speaker 2>I cannot talk about this anymore. And she's like, no,

854
00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:19.480
<v Speaker 2>do you remember like that time?

855
00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:22.599
<v Speaker 3>And he's like, I swear to God, stop it.

856
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:26.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, I have a phantom dick, woman, do you

857
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:29.480
<v Speaker 2>understand what a phantom pain is? Now? What about a

858
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:32.800
<v Speaker 2>phantom erection, a phantom boner, no.

859
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:37.000
<v Speaker 1>The phantom blue balls, Oh no, phantom fasso cones.

860
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.519
<v Speaker 2>I do not feel bad for Abelard. He was a

861
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:43.800
<v Speaker 2>piece of shit. However, Jesus fucking christ Man never just

862
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:47.159
<v Speaker 2>killed like just kill someone like, ah, just kill him

863
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:50.119
<v Speaker 2>like they're like at that point you are doing that's

864
00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:53.199
<v Speaker 2>a torture fetish like period like that, that's what that is.

865
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:55.519
<v Speaker 2>You were just I mean, and the and they would

866
00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:58.599
<v Speaker 2>have been like, yeah, so what but yeah still fuck off.

867
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:05.239
<v Speaker 2>Uh yeah, that is uh Abelard and Eloise, you know, which, uh,

868
00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:07.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think we can see that there was

869
00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:11.679
<v Speaker 2>a heavy religious aspect to this. There was a very

870
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:17.119
<v Speaker 2>uh creepy aspect to these relationships, as there were with

871
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:23.320
<v Speaker 2>many uh with many many relationships even today and and

872
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:26.039
<v Speaker 2>even worse in the past in a lot of ways.

873
00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:32.760
<v Speaker 2>But also that uh you know, they were both really

874
00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:36.800
<v Speaker 2>into this until one of them couldn't be anymore and

875
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:40.320
<v Speaker 2>was very sad about it, which you know, I feel

876
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:43.679
<v Speaker 2>for him in that one respect anyway. Yeah, speaking of

877
00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:49.920
<v Speaker 2>uh male monks who really just you know, got in

878
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:55.039
<v Speaker 2>so much trouble and had to be disciplined so so often. Uh,

879
00:50:55.199 --> 00:51:01.320
<v Speaker 2>Guibert of Nogant, who was actually a contemporary and uh

880
00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:05.440
<v Speaker 2>student of one hilde Guard of being another friend of

881
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:08.440
<v Speaker 2>the show, but eleanor uh not, we're not talking about

882
00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Hildy today. What what did our good friend Guibert do?

883
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Uh? So Homeboys? So he's a Benedictine monk, right, And

884
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:18.800
<v Speaker 1>also like this is an interesting one where you can

885
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:22.039
<v Speaker 1>go hmmm, because he had like an interesting relationship with.

886
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:23.199
<v Speaker 3>His mother as well.

887
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Like he was like, we'll just say, you know, I

888
00:51:25.719 --> 00:51:28.039
<v Speaker 1>don't like to pathologize kink. I think that people can

889
00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:29.280
<v Speaker 1>just be a kinky.

890
00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:30.079
<v Speaker 3>Because they want to.

891
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:33.480
<v Speaker 1>But you know, like he just have like a super

892
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:38.719
<v Speaker 1>kind of overbearing mom that he writes about all the time.

893
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Uh. And and like it's just like he's like Skinner

894
00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:49.159
<v Speaker 2>in uh he's looking out the and and Psycho he's

895
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:51.440
<v Speaker 2>looking out the window and he's looking up at the

896
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:53.480
<v Speaker 2>house and he's like, no, mother, I won't wear that

897
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:56.119
<v Speaker 2>sailor suit again. What are you talking about? No? And

898
00:51:56.119 --> 00:51:58.039
<v Speaker 2>all the other monks are like Jesus fucking Christ.

899
00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So like she does this like a number on Homeboy,

900
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:06.840
<v Speaker 1>and like he's kind of like isolated and he gets

901
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:10.159
<v Speaker 1>he gets like a private tutor from her, and the

902
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:16.199
<v Speaker 1>tutor beats him a lot, okay, and you'd be like, Okay,

903
00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:18.360
<v Speaker 1>that's bad. But let me tell you what homeboy writes

904
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:23.280
<v Speaker 1>about it. So direct quote, however oppressive he was, my

905
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:25.760
<v Speaker 1>master made it clear to me in all kinds of

906
00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:28.039
<v Speaker 1>different ways that he loved me no less than he

907
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:31.880
<v Speaker 1>loved himself. As for me, though I was somewhat clumsy

908
00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:34.760
<v Speaker 1>and shy for my age, okay, like Bella from fucking

909
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:41.039
<v Speaker 1>like Twilight, I had such a liking for him, stripped

910
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:43.239
<v Speaker 1>as my poor little skin may have been by his

911
00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:47.119
<v Speaker 1>many whiplashes, that I obeyed him, not out of fear,

912
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:50.280
<v Speaker 1>as would generally be the case in relationships like these,

913
00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:54.440
<v Speaker 1>but I have some curious feeling of love which overwhelmed

914
00:52:54.440 --> 00:52:57.519
<v Speaker 1>my whole being and made me forget all his harshness.

915
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:06.679
<v Speaker 2>Buddy dog Alfoy, I'm not pathologizing anything, and I don't

916
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:10.679
<v Speaker 2>like to read into like every monk was gay, every ab,

917
00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:13.840
<v Speaker 2>every nun was gay. No, they weren't. They weren't all gay.

918
00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:17.559
<v Speaker 2>Like a lot of them had extremely sincere religious beliefs.

919
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:19.599
<v Speaker 2>A lot of them were just like, I have to

920
00:53:19.639 --> 00:53:21.960
<v Speaker 2>be here otherwise they're going to drag me back or

921
00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:24.760
<v Speaker 2>my dad will kill me or whatever. But I mean,

922
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:28.519
<v Speaker 2>like when they're right in this shit, come on, like,

923
00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:31.880
<v Speaker 2>just oh on on that that is that is one

924
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:34.519
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent of a sexual nature. Nature that it's one

925
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:40.360
<v Speaker 2>a person not only justifying like the abuse, the actual

926
00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:43.360
<v Speaker 2>abuse that they suffered, but justifying the fact that they

927
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:46.400
<v Speaker 2>get off on it, which I mean it was not

928
00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:49.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't I'm not saying that's wrong. I don't think

929
00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:52.400
<v Speaker 2>that's wrong. It we Bear clearly was a kid when

930
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.400
<v Speaker 2>this was happening to him. But at the same time,

931
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:57.480
<v Speaker 2>like it's very clear that he was like, oh my god,

932
00:53:57.559 --> 00:54:00.840
<v Speaker 2>this is so awesome. I like, please, I'm such a

933
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:01.559
<v Speaker 2>naughty boy.

934
00:54:02.119 --> 00:54:05.480
<v Speaker 1>And you know, he needs you to know about it, right,

935
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:08.199
<v Speaker 1>Like this is his little autobiography. He's telling you his

936
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:11.239
<v Speaker 1>memoir and he's like, think you gotta understand about me?

937
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:13.480
<v Speaker 3>Is I loved getting beaten by my tutor.

938
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:17.920
<v Speaker 1>It's like, okay, dude, Like, you know, leaving a lasting

939
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:20.159
<v Speaker 1>record of your life and this is the thing that

940
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:21.440
<v Speaker 1>you really want people to know.

941
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Fine, fine, Like you're not that you studied with one

942
00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:30.360
<v Speaker 2>of the greatest geniuses who ever lived, one of the

943
00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:35.960
<v Speaker 2>true few true polymeats in the history of the world, Hildegard,

944
00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:39.519
<v Speaker 2>not that you experienced ecstatic visions that people believed you

945
00:54:39.559 --> 00:54:41.760
<v Speaker 2>were one of the few men who just really got

946
00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:44.639
<v Speaker 2>to get away with this stuff, like in the way

947
00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:49.760
<v Speaker 2>that women did. And Nope, it's this guy was beating

948
00:54:49.800 --> 00:54:52.199
<v Speaker 2>me with one hand while I was receiving the beating

949
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:57.440
<v Speaker 2>also with one hand, like like every yeah he's being

950
00:54:57.519 --> 00:54:59.119
<v Speaker 2>jerked off on while he's jerked like it.

951
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:01.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he's loving it. He's loving life.

952
00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:03.719
<v Speaker 4>And you know, good for him, you know, and I

953
00:55:04.239 --> 00:55:07.760
<v Speaker 4>must respect it. I've got to respect I got you know,

954
00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:11.920
<v Speaker 4>I got no, I got no you know, no shame

955
00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:14.639
<v Speaker 4>in that, dude. But like, it really is funny that

956
00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:17.039
<v Speaker 4>you were just like yeah that you know that one,

957
00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:19.599
<v Speaker 4>Like Okay, that's that's.

958
00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:23.199
<v Speaker 2>What we're that's what posterity is gonna remember. Cool. And

959
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:27.280
<v Speaker 2>then I mean, you know, there are famous tales that

960
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:30.039
<v Speaker 2>would have been pop culture for them, they were just

961
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:34.000
<v Speaker 2>passed to us as like myth and legend. Now, but uh,

962
00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:37.519
<v Speaker 2>Saint Sebastian famously of the getting shot with a bunch

963
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:41.239
<v Speaker 2>of a tweak getting shot with so so many arrows

964
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:46.000
<v Speaker 2>and being so so almost naked, and then uh Saint Barbara,

965
00:55:46.239 --> 00:55:49.800
<v Speaker 2>who uh you know, she of the having breast removed

966
00:55:49.840 --> 00:55:51.679
<v Speaker 2>and then growing back as a miracle.

967
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:54.159
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, so like you got a bunch of this, right,

968
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:57.239
<v Speaker 1>So we I love to talk about Saint Sebastian with

969
00:55:57.280 --> 00:55:59.639
<v Speaker 1>us because it's like one of the few, like kind

970
00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:00.159
<v Speaker 1>of over.

971
00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:01.599
<v Speaker 3>Queer spaces, right.

972
00:56:01.639 --> 00:56:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Like, so we come to these readings of religious art

973
00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:10.599
<v Speaker 1>in particular ways, right, because the thing of it is

974
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:12.960
<v Speaker 1>you might look at these and be like, Jesus, this

975
00:56:13.000 --> 00:56:16.320
<v Speaker 1>seems incredibly horny. Maybe I'm just being a modern person,

976
00:56:16.400 --> 00:56:18.360
<v Speaker 1>but like you need to calm down, because everyone is

977
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:19.320
<v Speaker 1>always horny, right.

978
00:56:19.639 --> 00:56:19.840
<v Speaker 3>I know.

979
00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:22.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm always talking about that particular quote that we have

980
00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:24.800
<v Speaker 1>from that guy in the sixteenth century who is a

981
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:28.800
<v Speaker 1>convert to Protestantism, and he's like, yeah, I like Protestantism

982
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:31.719
<v Speaker 1>because I was always so horny and turned on whenever

983
00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:35.199
<v Speaker 1>I looked at statues of the Virgin Mary in church. Yeah,

984
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:36.920
<v Speaker 1>and it always just so you know, like it was

985
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:38.920
<v Speaker 1>really unholy of me because I was like so busy

986
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:41.400
<v Speaker 1>getting horny for it. So we we know from their

987
00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:44.800
<v Speaker 1>own mouths that this stuff turns then on. So when

988
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:50.480
<v Speaker 1>you see pictures of Saint Sebastian tied to pull full

989
00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:54.440
<v Speaker 1>of arrows being like, h like you and you're like

990
00:56:54.440 --> 00:56:57.079
<v Speaker 1>that seems pretty horny. Yeah it is. So there's this

991
00:56:57.239 --> 00:56:58.840
<v Speaker 1>really great uh Saint Barbara.

992
00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:01.719
<v Speaker 3>I mean, like the the St. Sebastian wants are mirrored,

993
00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:02.599
<v Speaker 3>they're everywhere.

994
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:06.480
<v Speaker 1>But there's like this like fourteenth century Saint Barbara alter

995
00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:10.679
<v Speaker 1>that was made by this guy, Master Franca, and it's

996
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:13.719
<v Speaker 1>in the National Museum at Finland now and Sat Barbara

997
00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:17.719
<v Speaker 1>is just like tied up to this pole and like

998
00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:20.920
<v Speaker 1>titties are out and also like armpit height. You know,

999
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:23.119
<v Speaker 1>she's got the pot belly, she's got it all right,

1000
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:26.840
<v Speaker 1>and she's just like how hum well, everyone just starts

1001
00:57:26.880 --> 00:57:30.920
<v Speaker 1>like getting ready to cut her titties off right like

1002
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:32.559
<v Speaker 1>while everyone's like beating her.

1003
00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:37.239
<v Speaker 3>And she's just got this completely placid expression.

1004
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:39.559
<v Speaker 2>And it's ah, this is so nice.

1005
00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:43.159
<v Speaker 1>Finally, finally, right. And we see this also really similarly,

1006
00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:46.440
<v Speaker 1>especially with the Saint Agatha of Sicily. I paid good

1007
00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:49.400
<v Speaker 1>money for a picture of Saint Agatha of Sicily in

1008
00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:52.800
<v Speaker 1>my book getting this done to her. So she's another

1009
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:56.920
<v Speaker 1>one where her titties get cut off. Don't worry, Saint

1010
00:57:56.960 --> 00:57:58.199
<v Speaker 1>Peter shows up and they grow back.

1011
00:57:58.199 --> 00:58:00.400
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't I wouldn't wory no oh no, no, I just

1012
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:03.599
<v Speaker 2>I was the way the way I paid good money

1013
00:58:03.639 --> 00:58:06.280
<v Speaker 2>for that, and it was like you were an art collector.

1014
00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:09.000
<v Speaker 2>You're like, all right, so I'll take them, I'll take that,

1015
00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:11.159
<v Speaker 2>and go I'll take this, and then that one of

1016
00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:15.199
<v Speaker 2>the titties being cut off, please delivered directly to my months. Sorry,

1017
00:58:15.239 --> 00:58:15.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, I mean.

1018
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:18.880
<v Speaker 1>One hundred percent like this is what people are like

1019
00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:20.760
<v Speaker 1>asking though, like you know the people who are like,

1020
00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:22.840
<v Speaker 1>oh yes, and then I'll have a Saint Barbara, right,

1021
00:58:22.840 --> 00:58:25.280
<v Speaker 1>It's like it's illicit pornography, right, It's.

1022
00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:27.119
<v Speaker 2>Like, yeah, oh yes, it's an.

1023
00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Excuse at the very least to look at a picture

1024
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:32.480
<v Speaker 1>of a beautiful woman with her titty out, you know,

1025
00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:34.519
<v Speaker 1>and then no one can get mad at you. And

1026
00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:38.719
<v Speaker 1>then above that, it's an excuse to look at beautiful

1027
00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:42.119
<v Speaker 1>women with their titties out who are also experiencing pain,

1028
00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:46.960
<v Speaker 1>we're experiencing violence. But both Saint Barbara and Saint Agatha

1029
00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:49.960
<v Speaker 1>in these situations are just like oh ho hum right

1030
00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:50.920
<v Speaker 1>and now okay.

1031
00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, oh oh oh bother.

1032
00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:57.079
<v Speaker 1>Like one of the reasons that they are they have

1033
00:58:57.159 --> 00:58:59.400
<v Speaker 1>these placid expressions is that they're they're willing to suffer

1034
00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:01.519
<v Speaker 1>for Jesus, right, you know, like obviously they' they're willing

1035
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:04.599
<v Speaker 1>to suffer further space or they're getting off on it

1036
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:08.280
<v Speaker 1>because they're having an ecstatic Yay, Yeah, it's happening. I'm

1037
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.639
<v Speaker 1>finally dying for Jesus like I always wanted to. But

1038
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:17.159
<v Speaker 1>we are almost certainly being invited to take this sexually,

1039
00:59:18.039 --> 00:59:21.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, to think about ourselves as the tortures, or indeed,

1040
00:59:21.079 --> 00:59:24.519
<v Speaker 1>think about ourselves as the saint, like put ourselves in

1041
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:29.079
<v Speaker 1>their shoes and experience this ecstasy.

1042
00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:31.360
<v Speaker 3>As a result of violence and pain, right.

1043
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:36.719
<v Speaker 1>You know, because we are being told to understand that

1044
00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:38.639
<v Speaker 1>that is what is happening, one way or another. Now

1045
00:59:38.679 --> 00:59:41.360
<v Speaker 1>you're not supposed to sexualize it, but you know, these

1046
00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:44.280
<v Speaker 1>people are getting off on pictures of the Virgin Mary.

1047
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:52.159
<v Speaker 2>So I'm afraid they were drawing the vagina wounds of Christ.

1048
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:55.599
<v Speaker 2>Like there is no way to read that other than

1049
00:59:55.880 --> 01:00:01.440
<v Speaker 2>people sublimating their own sexual desires at these images, at

1050
01:00:01.480 --> 01:00:04.039
<v Speaker 2>these images of what is supposed to be to them,

1051
01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:07.400
<v Speaker 2>the perfect man and he's buff and he looks great,

1052
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:11.079
<v Speaker 2>and you know he's just rippling muscles up on the cross,

1053
01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:14.400
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, there's no way that those two things

1054
01:00:14.519 --> 01:00:18.039
<v Speaker 2>are not coming together. And what these people are doing

1055
01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:23.800
<v Speaker 2>is drawing a form of pornography that is acceptable for

1056
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.599
<v Speaker 2>like that that is like that is acceptable for them

1057
01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:29.360
<v Speaker 2>to do at the time because it is a form

1058
01:00:29.400 --> 01:00:34.440
<v Speaker 2>of religious acceptable religious expression and fervance.

1059
01:00:36.199 --> 01:00:38.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah exactly, And you can read it how you want.

1060
01:00:38.679 --> 01:00:41.280
<v Speaker 1>That's that is the point of audiences, and that's what

1061
01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:44.239
<v Speaker 1>gives it plausible deniability, and that's why these images were

1062
01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:45.800
<v Speaker 1>able to be made, right.

1063
01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly. Yeah, Yeah, it's uh, folks, Uh, you know,

1064
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:54.719
<v Speaker 2>it's a rich tapestry. We got a couple of more things,

1065
01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:59.039
<v Speaker 2>uh before Well, we've got one that that elare really

1066
01:00:59.079 --> 01:01:00.679
<v Speaker 2>wants to get to. We'll say it for a last

1067
01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:03.719
<v Speaker 2>So let's talk a little bit about you know, the

1068
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:07.599
<v Speaker 2>Bediism and the so called chivalric tradition. So, I mean

1069
01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:12.719
<v Speaker 2>there is stuff here. There is love service, there is

1070
01:01:12.800 --> 01:01:17.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, doing these acts of selflessness, sometimes public humiliation

1071
01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:22.559
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you know, things like that. How how are these

1072
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:25.719
<v Speaker 2>how do you medievals see these two things as as

1073
01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:27.719
<v Speaker 2>tied together in any way or do?

1074
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:31.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, certainly we do. And I mean one of

1075
01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:33.960
<v Speaker 1>the big ways of looking at this is you know,

1076
01:01:34.039 --> 01:01:37.199
<v Speaker 1>again I'm always going on about dan More. I know

1077
01:01:37.239 --> 01:01:38.760
<v Speaker 1>you're all tired of hearing it, but I'm going to

1078
01:01:38.800 --> 01:01:42.599
<v Speaker 1>do it anyway. You know. One of the big things

1079
01:01:42.599 --> 01:01:46.880
<v Speaker 1>that they talk about, specifically in Courtly Loved tropes is

1080
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:50.480
<v Speaker 1>this idea of suffering and suffering is being innate to

1081
01:01:51.079 --> 01:01:56.199
<v Speaker 1>love and as indeed being necessary for love. And more particularly,

1082
01:01:56.239 --> 01:01:58.840
<v Speaker 1>it talks about the suffering that men need to experience

1083
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:02.519
<v Speaker 1>in order to experience love. And to an extent, what

1084
01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:05.159
<v Speaker 1>that is about is kind of like proving to a

1085
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:08.880
<v Speaker 1>woman that she should put herself into a situation where

1086
01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:15.599
<v Speaker 1>she kind of faces appropriate appropriation or you know, damaging

1087
01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:19.760
<v Speaker 1>her own reputation, which can be very dangerous for married women. Right,

1088
01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:22.559
<v Speaker 1>So you need to prove to women that you're willing

1089
01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:28.079
<v Speaker 1>to to, you know, go through it in order to

1090
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:32.119
<v Speaker 1>win somebody's love. Right. And so we see this then

1091
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:35.639
<v Speaker 1>play out all the time in varying ways, but we

1092
01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:39.280
<v Speaker 1>see it, for example, in our theory Ona, right, and

1093
01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:44.559
<v Speaker 1>this comes up in particularly in particularly this comes up

1094
01:02:44.599 --> 01:02:46.159
<v Speaker 1>in particular in the Night of the.

1095
01:02:46.159 --> 01:02:49.440
<v Speaker 3>Cart which is the first.

1096
01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:53.079
<v Speaker 1>Story if memory serves, where in Lancelot and Guenevere become

1097
01:02:53.159 --> 01:02:58.880
<v Speaker 1>lovers and the entire thing Hinges repeatedly on Lancelot's humiliation.

1098
01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:02.880
<v Speaker 1>There's not anything physical. It's not about you know, him

1099
01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:06.239
<v Speaker 1>being like beaten by Gwenevere or whipped by Gwenevere or anything.

1100
01:03:06.440 --> 01:03:13.559
<v Speaker 1>But it's about the one hundred percent flat out humiliation

1101
01:03:13.760 --> 01:03:16.880
<v Speaker 1>he's willing to go through for her. So, for example,

1102
01:03:16.920 --> 01:03:18.960
<v Speaker 1>it's called a night of the cart because you know, basically,

1103
01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:23.480
<v Speaker 1>Guenevere gets kidnapped and then this dwarf is like, I

1104
01:03:23.559 --> 01:03:25.280
<v Speaker 1>know where she is and i'll take you to her,

1105
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:28.280
<v Speaker 1>but you have to ride in this cart. And you're

1106
01:03:28.320 --> 01:03:31.280
<v Speaker 1>supposed to understand that that's bad, right, It's bad that

1107
01:03:31.719 --> 01:03:33.599
<v Speaker 1>someone should ride in a cart, because if you're a knight,

1108
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:36.320
<v Speaker 1>you don't ride in a cart. Knights ride on a horse.

1109
01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:41.280
<v Speaker 1>And indeed, when the dwarf says all this, GWayne is

1110
01:03:41.320 --> 01:03:43.440
<v Speaker 1>there with Lancelot, and Gwen is like, I'm not gonna

1111
01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:46.679
<v Speaker 1>ride no fucking cart, right.

1112
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:50.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm here for plot. I'm here to confirm the plot.

1113
01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:54.360
<v Speaker 1>So we understand that Lancelot is hot for Guenevere because

1114
01:03:54.400 --> 01:03:56.559
<v Speaker 1>he's willing to ride in the cart, right, He's willing

1115
01:03:56.599 --> 01:03:58.920
<v Speaker 1>to be shamed in order.

1116
01:03:58.719 --> 01:04:01.199
<v Speaker 3>To experience her love. And you know, like blah, blah.

1117
01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:03.880
<v Speaker 1>Blah, go through it, lots of tests, walk over a

1118
01:04:03.920 --> 01:04:07.840
<v Speaker 1>bridge of swords, things like that, right, and then like

1119
01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:10.079
<v Speaker 1>at the end, he's supposed to come back and fight

1120
01:04:10.119 --> 01:04:12.159
<v Speaker 1>a duel in a year, because that's what you do

1121
01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:14.719
<v Speaker 1>in our theory. Ona and Gueneverea goes, if you really

1122
01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:19.559
<v Speaker 1>love me, you'll lose the duel, which would be like humiliating, right,

1123
01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:22.559
<v Speaker 1>And then he's like, okay, girl, for you, I will like,

1124
01:04:22.599 --> 01:04:25.800
<v Speaker 1>I'll absolutely throw this fight. I'm willing to be humiliated

1125
01:04:25.840 --> 01:04:28.000
<v Speaker 1>in front of all my homies. But then halfway through

1126
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:30.079
<v Speaker 1>she decides that like she's done with that shit and

1127
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:31.039
<v Speaker 1>is like, oh, actually beat.

1128
01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:32.719
<v Speaker 3>Him up anyway. And then he like wins with ease.

1129
01:04:33.559 --> 01:04:37.280
<v Speaker 1>So and this is kind of one of this itself

1130
01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:41.599
<v Speaker 1>is a way of talking about courtly love as a

1131
01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:44.480
<v Speaker 1>trope and courtly love relationships because in order to win

1132
01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:48.760
<v Speaker 1>the ultimate victory, right, you have to submit yourself to

1133
01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:51.679
<v Speaker 1>the woman in question. So you submit yourself to the woman,

1134
01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:54.159
<v Speaker 1>You submit yourself to the degradation, you submit yourself to

1135
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:57.840
<v Speaker 1>the humiliation. And by those means, you know, as we

1136
01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:00.519
<v Speaker 1>were talking about earlier, like by being a hot light sub,

1137
01:05:01.079 --> 01:05:06.320
<v Speaker 1>you actually have the power and the relationship because you're winning.

1138
01:05:06.320 --> 01:05:07.960
<v Speaker 3>At the end of the day, you get this relationship

1139
01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:08.800
<v Speaker 3>with guenever.

1140
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:13.079
<v Speaker 1>And you see this come up over and over and

1141
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:17.440
<v Speaker 1>over in courtly love literature. This this willingness to subjugate

1142
01:05:17.480 --> 01:05:22.039
<v Speaker 1>with itself, this willingness to be humiliated in public. And

1143
01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:23.960
<v Speaker 1>then that is how you know you have a really

1144
01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:27.000
<v Speaker 1>good relationship, right.

1145
01:05:27.519 --> 01:05:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmmm hmm, yeah, yeah, there's you know, there's no

1146
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:39.559
<v Speaker 2>no way to read that other than you know, do this,

1147
01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:44.639
<v Speaker 2>do this for me now, and yeah, and embarrass yourself

1148
01:05:44.679 --> 01:05:48.360
<v Speaker 2>in front of your friends. And he's like, yes, ma'am, yeah,

1149
01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:50.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I guess any any time.

1150
01:05:51.039 --> 01:05:53.079
<v Speaker 1>We could also like do I guess in here a

1151
01:05:53.079 --> 01:05:57.239
<v Speaker 1>shout out to like the Aristotle pony play thing too,

1152
01:05:58.079 --> 01:06:01.079
<v Speaker 1>which is important. So it's like there is it's very popular.

1153
01:06:01.840 --> 01:06:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1154
01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:07.280
<v Speaker 1>There's a very popular medieval story, you know, because like

1155
01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Aristotle's on the books as being Alexander the greats Tutor.

1156
01:06:11.800 --> 01:06:16.480
<v Speaker 1>Medieval people love this, so they they like to h

1157
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:19.239
<v Speaker 1>they like very particularly to write about this time when

1158
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:21.440
<v Speaker 1>he must have been in his service, and there's the

1159
01:06:21.480 --> 01:06:26.480
<v Speaker 1>story that goes that like, uh, while this happens, like

1160
01:06:26.920 --> 01:06:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Aristotle is trying to like tell Alexander the Great like

1161
01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:35.840
<v Speaker 1>don't be too in love with your white Phyllis, uh,

1162
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:39.840
<v Speaker 1>which had no problem, and he's like, you know, because

1163
01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:42.119
<v Speaker 1>you know if you get too into sex, then you

1164
01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:43.880
<v Speaker 1>know that would be bad and you'll just be thinking

1165
01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:48.199
<v Speaker 1>about that all the time. Right. So anyway, uh, Phillis

1166
01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:50.199
<v Speaker 1>gets pissed off and she's like, Okay, well you know

1167
01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:53.039
<v Speaker 1>what is I'm gonna do. I'm gonna make Aristotle horny

1168
01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:55.599
<v Speaker 1>for me, and that's going to teach him an important

1169
01:06:55.679 --> 01:07:02.320
<v Speaker 1>lesson question mark. Anyway, so like eventually he's like a

1170
01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:04.920
<v Speaker 1>down bad. He definitely wants to get with Phyllis, and

1171
01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Phyllis is like, yeah, okay to do the basement, like

1172
01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:12.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, I needed to do, uh, the the courtly

1173
01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:15.960
<v Speaker 1>love ritual wherein you debase yourself for me. So like

1174
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:18.559
<v Speaker 1>basically she's like a come to me wearing like a

1175
01:07:18.559 --> 01:07:24.480
<v Speaker 1>little saddle and a harness and carry me around like

1176
01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:26.239
<v Speaker 1>like a horse, and then I know I'll know that

1177
01:07:26.320 --> 01:07:28.599
<v Speaker 1>you're serious. And Aristotle's like yes, ma'am.

1178
01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:29.360
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1179
01:07:29.400 --> 01:07:32.760
<v Speaker 1>And anyway, so here's Phyllis riding Aristotle down the hall

1180
01:07:32.960 --> 01:07:35.679
<v Speaker 1>like a pony with the little whip and then they

1181
01:07:35.800 --> 01:07:39.360
<v Speaker 1>run into Alexander the Great, and Alexander the Great is like.

1182
01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:50.519
<v Speaker 2>Question, is is this part of the is this part

1183
01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:54.760
<v Speaker 2>of the nose sex thing? And he's like fuck, He's like,

1184
01:07:56.360 --> 01:07:58.000
<v Speaker 2>fuck your boyfriend and leave me alone.

1185
01:07:58.639 --> 01:08:01.960
<v Speaker 1>So but basically, like what happens here is that in

1186
01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:06.760
<v Speaker 1>the story, Aristotle goes yeah, because you know, actually, this

1187
01:08:06.920 --> 01:08:09.719
<v Speaker 1>proves I'm right, Because if even an old dude like

1188
01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:12.519
<v Speaker 1>me who knows better can get this horny for your

1189
01:08:12.559 --> 01:08:15.679
<v Speaker 1>wife that he's doing pony play in the hallway, wouldn't

1190
01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:18.880
<v Speaker 1>a hot young things such as you be even more

1191
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:22.079
<v Speaker 1>likely to get too carried away and end up doing

1192
01:08:22.119 --> 01:08:24.920
<v Speaker 1>pony play. And then we all learn an important lesson.

1193
01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Right, which is that Alexander can watch you doing pony

1194
01:08:28.720 --> 01:08:31.399
<v Speaker 2>play with his wife and not care for some reason.

1195
01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:36.199
<v Speaker 2>Who's to say why though? Who's to say? Yeah?

1196
01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:38.880
<v Speaker 1>Yep, all right?

1197
01:08:39.159 --> 01:08:43.000
<v Speaker 2>And last, but not least, I think Eleanor's favorite thing here,

1198
01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:50.359
<v Speaker 2>maybe we have a hell fresco in the city of Bologna.

1199
01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:52.479
<v Speaker 2>I believe it is from about the year fourteen to

1200
01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:58.960
<v Speaker 2>ten by who we got Giovanni da the fuck I can't.

1201
01:08:59.039 --> 01:09:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Giovanni, Yeah, it is by Giovanna de Modina.

1202
01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:05.000
<v Speaker 2>There yeah, okay.

1203
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:08.479
<v Speaker 1>So I got a blog about this over on my website.

1204
01:09:08.760 --> 01:09:10.399
<v Speaker 1>And the reason I have a blog about this is

1205
01:09:10.399 --> 01:09:13.760
<v Speaker 1>because I got so fucking angry because, uh, we were

1206
01:09:13.840 --> 01:09:15.920
<v Speaker 1>in Bologna and I was trying to see this hell

1207
01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:20.439
<v Speaker 1>fresco and your girls a good person who listens when

1208
01:09:20.520 --> 01:09:23.359
<v Speaker 1>churches ask you not to take pictures, right. So one

1209
01:09:23.399 --> 01:09:26.079
<v Speaker 1>of the ways that the Basilica in Bologna is making

1210
01:09:26.119 --> 01:09:28.720
<v Speaker 1>money is by charging admission to go see this really

1211
01:09:28.760 --> 01:09:30.640
<v Speaker 1>good hell fresco. Now it's technically called the Chapel of

1212
01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:32.520
<v Speaker 1>the Magei because they're like, would you like to see

1213
01:09:32.520 --> 01:09:34.640
<v Speaker 1>the paintings of the Madge? And I'm like, I'll no, bitch,

1214
01:09:34.640 --> 01:09:35.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't.

1215
01:09:34.880 --> 01:09:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Want to see the I want to see hell. Everyone.

1216
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:41.840
<v Speaker 2>They have two lines, everyone here for the hell painting

1217
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:44.119
<v Speaker 2>and everyone here for everything else, and one of them

1218
01:09:44.159 --> 01:09:44.560
<v Speaker 2>is empty.

1219
01:09:45.279 --> 01:09:47.279
<v Speaker 1>So you need to pay money to go in to

1220
01:09:47.319 --> 01:09:49.359
<v Speaker 1>go see this thing, and you're not supposed to take

1221
01:09:49.399 --> 01:09:51.199
<v Speaker 1>pictures of it, and you know that's fine.

1222
01:09:51.199 --> 01:09:52.760
<v Speaker 3>I'll go stare at it for twenty minutes. I don't

1223
01:09:52.760 --> 01:09:53.359
<v Speaker 3>really give a shit.

1224
01:09:54.279 --> 01:09:55.439
<v Speaker 1>And then when we were there, I was like, you

1225
01:09:55.439 --> 01:09:59.000
<v Speaker 1>know what, fine, Like, obviously they're selling little pamphlets of it. Well,

1226
01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:01.039
<v Speaker 1>just buy the little pamphlet in order to get the picture.

1227
01:10:01.479 --> 01:10:03.600
<v Speaker 1>But the thing is there are all kinds of sins

1228
01:10:03.640 --> 01:10:05.479
<v Speaker 1>that are being portrayed in this hell fresco. You get

1229
01:10:05.600 --> 01:10:08.199
<v Speaker 1>venial sins or worldly sins. Especially at the top there's

1230
01:10:08.239 --> 01:10:10.239
<v Speaker 1>kind of like pictures of heretics things like that. And

1231
01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:13.199
<v Speaker 1>what you got to understand about this fresco as well,

1232
01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:18.159
<v Speaker 1>is that, like you can pick out the people who

1233
01:10:18.199 --> 01:10:20.359
<v Speaker 1>are in it, Like the people looking at this would

1234
01:10:20.399 --> 01:10:23.439
<v Speaker 1>be like, oh yeah, like there's our cardinal and stuff

1235
01:10:23.479 --> 01:10:25.600
<v Speaker 1>like that, right, But down the bottom are the seven

1236
01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:28.039
<v Speaker 1>Deadly sins, and the seven deadly sins like get you

1237
01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:31.319
<v Speaker 1>further into hell. And down in the bottom right corner

1238
01:10:31.399 --> 01:10:38.199
<v Speaker 1>more particularly, there are the lustful and the lustful stuff

1239
01:10:38.319 --> 01:10:42.560
<v Speaker 1>is so incredibly horny that even if you buy the

1240
01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:46.159
<v Speaker 1>fucking pamphlet, the Catholic Church are like, I'm sorry, you're not. Nope,

1241
01:10:46.920 --> 01:10:49.800
<v Speaker 1>you know what what part? No, Like they've got zoomed

1242
01:10:49.800 --> 01:10:53.720
<v Speaker 1>in bits of like every other bit of like every

1243
01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:56.680
<v Speaker 1>other sin. Right, They're like, oh yeah, here's like the

1244
01:10:56.720 --> 01:11:01.159
<v Speaker 1>guys who are the uh, the gloss and they're getting

1245
01:11:01.199 --> 01:11:03.000
<v Speaker 1>their eyes gouged out while you eat a chicken, which

1246
01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:05.079
<v Speaker 1>is very funny. I like that a lot, but it's

1247
01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:09.840
<v Speaker 1>like the lustful stuff is so incredibly over the top

1248
01:11:10.039 --> 01:11:12.079
<v Speaker 1>horny that they won't let you.

1249
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:12.880
<v Speaker 3>See pictures of it.

1250
01:11:13.720 --> 01:11:17.680
<v Speaker 1>And so it's like you get, you know, the really

1251
01:11:17.680 --> 01:11:22.159
<v Speaker 1>calm and stuff where it's like, you know, the sodomites

1252
01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:24.479
<v Speaker 1>who are being spit roasted and looking at each other.

1253
01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:29.520
<v Speaker 1>But in particular, there's this woman with the lustful and

1254
01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:33.399
<v Speaker 1>she's like breaking the fourth wall. She's looking directly at you.

1255
01:11:33.520 --> 01:11:35.760
<v Speaker 1>This is like a life sized painting of a woman

1256
01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:40.000
<v Speaker 1>and she is got these snakes coiled around her that

1257
01:11:40.039 --> 01:11:42.399
<v Speaker 1>are barbed that all the lustful do. And it's like, oh, yeah,

1258
01:11:42.439 --> 01:11:45.239
<v Speaker 1>you see you like being tied up? Well, how about

1259
01:11:45.239 --> 01:11:50.520
<v Speaker 1>in hell? And she's being choked by a demon and

1260
01:11:50.600 --> 01:11:55.159
<v Speaker 1>she's looking directly at you, and she's just like, I

1261
01:11:55.239 --> 01:11:56.199
<v Speaker 1>love this shit.

1262
01:11:57.319 --> 01:12:00.399
<v Speaker 2>It is so fun. I'm so happy to be here.

1263
01:12:00.520 --> 01:12:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

1264
01:12:01.680 --> 01:12:04.800
<v Speaker 1>Like I mean, she's literally smiling, she's just beaming from

1265
01:12:04.840 --> 01:12:06.880
<v Speaker 1>ear to ear and just looking at you being like,

1266
01:12:07.159 --> 01:12:12.079
<v Speaker 1>hell yeah, brother, love choking play. And it is like

1267
01:12:12.680 --> 01:12:19.439
<v Speaker 1>intensely overwhelmingly, like shockingly fucking horny, to the point that

1268
01:12:19.479 --> 01:12:21.520
<v Speaker 1>like you were just you were not allowed to buy

1269
01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:24.239
<v Speaker 1>a picture of this. But I did buy a picture

1270
01:12:24.279 --> 01:12:27.600
<v Speaker 1>of this, right. I spent twenty five I spent twenty

1271
01:12:27.600 --> 01:12:31.880
<v Speaker 1>five quid. I went to find a hi res image

1272
01:12:32.039 --> 01:12:35.119
<v Speaker 1>of this. Uh, and indeed it is. It's now like

1273
01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:37.800
<v Speaker 1>my background on my laptop. I'm looking at it right

1274
01:12:37.840 --> 01:12:41.520
<v Speaker 1>now in order to like look at it and write

1275
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:43.399
<v Speaker 1>about it. But you know, it's and it's not just her.

1276
01:12:43.439 --> 01:12:46.560
<v Speaker 1>There's like one horny chick who's kind of like down

1277
01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:48.600
<v Speaker 1>like being as she's sort of like tied up by

1278
01:12:48.680 --> 01:12:51.159
<v Speaker 1>the spiny snakes, and she's looking over her shoulder like

1279
01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:54.119
<v Speaker 1>ooh at like one of the demons, like oh yeah,

1280
01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:56.319
<v Speaker 1>you like that shit. There's like all these people kind

1281
01:12:56.319 --> 01:12:58.760
<v Speaker 1>of like getting poked in the bum and they're.

1282
01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:01.880
<v Speaker 2>All like one of these guys is literally being spit roasted,

1283
01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and he is he's first of all, wearing glasses. Second

1284
01:13:05.520 --> 01:13:08.199
<v Speaker 2>of all, he's so happy about this, and third of

1285
01:13:08.239 --> 01:13:11.640
<v Speaker 2>all is staring like a demon or perhaps another like

1286
01:13:11.760 --> 01:13:14.520
<v Speaker 2>human who's being tortured in the face and they're just like, ah,

1287
01:13:14.600 --> 01:13:17.720
<v Speaker 2>this is fucking great. I love this shit.

1288
01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:20.039
<v Speaker 1>And it's just so funny because it's like all the

1289
01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:22.359
<v Speaker 1>other tortures are just kind of like what much more like,

1290
01:13:22.399 --> 01:13:24.880
<v Speaker 1>oh yeah, these people seem to be being tortured, lustful,

1291
01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:28.319
<v Speaker 1>are having the time of their deaths. They absolutely love

1292
01:13:28.479 --> 01:13:31.199
<v Speaker 1>so happy, they are just so horny about it, and

1293
01:13:31.239 --> 01:13:34.000
<v Speaker 1>like all of it is just BDSM right. They're not

1294
01:13:34.079 --> 01:13:39.279
<v Speaker 1>showing as suffering, They're showing as being absolutely ecstatic. And

1295
01:13:39.359 --> 01:13:43.359
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how you relate to this in any

1296
01:13:43.399 --> 01:13:46.199
<v Speaker 1>way other than this is like mad horny stuff. And

1297
01:13:46.439 --> 01:13:48.560
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, but the church agrees with me, and that's

1298
01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:50.000
<v Speaker 1>why they won't let you have a picture of it.

1299
01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:52.960
<v Speaker 1>The church is like, I know what you're doing. You're

1300
01:13:53.000 --> 01:13:54.920
<v Speaker 1>looking at these people who are being like mad horny,

1301
01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:55.720
<v Speaker 1>and I'm like, yes.

1302
01:13:55.560 --> 01:13:55.880
<v Speaker 3>I am.

1303
01:13:56.239 --> 01:13:59.760
<v Speaker 1>But when I do it, I am oracle. Okay, it's

1304
01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:04.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm doing it for I'm I'm actually doing this for

1305
01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:05.119
<v Speaker 1>the culture.

1306
01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:08.760
<v Speaker 3>So respect this is this is art.

1307
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:15.399
<v Speaker 2>This is art criticism, damn it. Oh my god. Uh, folks,

1308
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:20.039
<v Speaker 2>that is a lot about b d S. M antiquity

1309
01:14:20.319 --> 01:14:23.479
<v Speaker 2>in the Middle Ages and even today. Uh. But we

1310
01:14:23.600 --> 01:14:26.359
<v Speaker 2>hope you learned a lot, because uh there's a lot

1311
01:14:26.359 --> 01:14:32.039
<v Speaker 2>there and it is uh it is fun to uh

1312
01:14:32.079 --> 01:14:34.520
<v Speaker 2>to try and impact all this because you know, we

1313
01:14:34.600 --> 01:14:38.640
<v Speaker 2>know that people have been enjoying BDSM for a very

1314
01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:45.680
<v Speaker 2>long time. And uh, you know, sometimes anana just lets

1315
01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:48.560
<v Speaker 2>down her fishing net and you gotta climb into it

1316
01:14:48.720 --> 01:14:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and uh get ritually fucked Otherwise, Uh, you know, the

1317
01:14:53.960 --> 01:14:58.000
<v Speaker 2>last the priests of Mardook are gonna be real fucking

1318
01:14:58.079 --> 01:15:00.720
<v Speaker 2>pissed about this. You you guys better get in here

1319
01:15:00.760 --> 01:15:03.159
<v Speaker 2>and be happy about it, or we're all going to

1320
01:15:03.199 --> 01:15:04.680
<v Speaker 2>be in trouble and there's not going to be any

1321
01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:07.560
<v Speaker 2>good crops this year. So get in the net. God

1322
01:15:07.680 --> 01:15:11.760
<v Speaker 2>damn it, folks, the DSM has been around for a

1323
01:15:11.760 --> 01:15:15.359
<v Speaker 2>long time. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Regardless of

1324
01:15:15.439 --> 01:15:20.840
<v Speaker 2>if you are a participant or not much with everything else,

1325
01:15:21.279 --> 01:15:23.520
<v Speaker 2>you shouldn't solely care about it because of how it

1326
01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:26.479
<v Speaker 2>will affect you. But if people cut this out of

1327
01:15:26.840 --> 01:15:29.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, culture and pop culture and everything like that,

1328
01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:33.439
<v Speaker 2>you know they're going to be cutting a lot of

1329
01:15:33.479 --> 01:15:36.119
<v Speaker 2>other stuff too, and eventually they'll get to something you

1330
01:15:36.159 --> 01:15:41.600
<v Speaker 2>do actually care about, and yeah, that is not you know,

1331
01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:44.039
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't be selfish about it. But if you need a

1332
01:15:44.039 --> 01:15:47.199
<v Speaker 2>bigger reason other than it's bad to do that, there

1333
01:15:47.239 --> 01:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>you go. Because eventually they're going to get to the

1334
01:15:48.960 --> 01:15:52.199
<v Speaker 2>point where they're like, yeah, you can't, you have to

1335
01:15:52.399 --> 01:15:55.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, only missionary and you're like, fuck, god.

1336
01:15:55.720 --> 01:15:58.560
<v Speaker 3>Damn it, that's right.

1337
01:15:59.199 --> 01:16:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah anyway, Yeah, that's that's what we got for today, folks. Please,

1338
01:16:06.760 --> 01:16:10.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, thank you for listening, Thank you for checking

1339
01:16:10.079 --> 01:16:12.399
<v Speaker 2>us out. Please subscribe to the Patreon if you're interested,

1340
01:16:12.920 --> 01:16:17.399
<v Speaker 2>check out our series on the Crusades. Yeah, eleanor what

1341
01:16:17.439 --> 01:16:20.640
<v Speaker 2>else you got in the meantime other than your.

1342
01:16:24.199 --> 01:16:28.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what do I have going on? Yeah, I've once

1343
01:16:28.159 --> 01:16:32.840
<v Speaker 1>a gotten done a bunch of other people's podcasts, so

1344
01:16:32.920 --> 01:16:37.000
<v Speaker 1>those will be coming up. Look for me soon, I think,

1345
01:16:37.199 --> 01:16:41.439
<v Speaker 1>not yet on Cancel Me daddy. Uh so that that's

1346
01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:45.000
<v Speaker 1>that's coming up, But I mean, for now, you can

1347
01:16:45.279 --> 01:16:49.279
<v Speaker 1>obviously check out Welcome to the Crusades. Obviously check out

1348
01:16:49.319 --> 01:16:51.399
<v Speaker 1>my book The Once in Future Sex, especially if you

1349
01:16:51.439 --> 01:16:52.680
<v Speaker 1>want to see some of these horny.

1350
01:16:52.399 --> 01:16:53.640
<v Speaker 3>Pictures we were just talking about.

1351
01:16:53.920 --> 01:16:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Ye got him, we got him in there. But yeah,

1352
01:16:56.920 --> 01:16:59.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm on the socials at Going Medieval. Yeah

1353
01:17:00.159 --> 01:17:01.640
<v Speaker 1>you know I'm around in the area.

1354
01:17:02.479 --> 01:17:09.039
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah, that's all right, folks. You can find me

1355
01:17:09.720 --> 01:17:14.000
<v Speaker 2>normal places. You can find me at Luca's Amazing on

1356
01:17:14.079 --> 01:17:16.319
<v Speaker 2>the socials and you can find my I'll show people's

1357
01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:18.479
<v Speaker 2>story of the Old Republic. If you want to hear

1358
01:17:18.479 --> 01:17:22.239
<v Speaker 2>me talk about Star Wars, but yeah, thank you very

1359
01:17:22.319 --> 01:17:24.119
<v Speaker 2>much for listening, and we'll see you next time.

1360
01:17:24.840 --> 01:17:26.439
<v Speaker 1>Bye.

1361
01:17:25.159 --> 01:17:25.279
<v Speaker 3>By