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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen responds to the comments that Jonathan Naylor made.

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Naylor of MMDVM made about removing the M seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>project from the list of DV modes that MMDVM will

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<v Speaker 1>now offer and support. M seventeen Foundation responded, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to read through that today. I said a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of things in that M seventeen video, and I had

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of comments and feedback. Really appreciate you guys

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<v Speaker 1>who are YouTube channel members who I shared the video

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<v Speaker 1>with early. I shared the video with about twenty four

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<v Speaker 1>hours before I made it go live, and you guys

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<v Speaker 1>had some really good feedback on that, which I do appreciate.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, even if you didn't agree with me, I

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<v Speaker 1>do appreciate the feedback. I had mentioned in that video

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<v Speaker 1>something about not liking open source. It was a specific

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<v Speaker 1>topic I was talking about. So I'm gonna explain a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit more about open source here later in this video.

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<v Speaker 1>So stay tuned really quick, because I'm not against open source.

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<v Speaker 1>I just had some comments about it, and a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of you made some really good points and I want

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<v Speaker 1>to address as well. So this Amateur Radio Daily is

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<v Speaker 1>what I subscribe to. This website right here is what

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<v Speaker 1>I subscribe to, and this is why I got this

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<v Speaker 1>feed first. But then a few of you shared this

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<v Speaker 1>rebuttal with me, and I think that this is very

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<v Speaker 1>good information put out by the M seventeen Foundation. Rebuttical

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<v Speaker 1>rebuttal to Jonathan Taylor G four k LX statements regarding

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen. So, first of all, I want to say

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<v Speaker 1>very I want to make it very clear that I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just reporting the news here, I'm adding commentary to it. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>I have always thought the M seventeen project was a

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<v Speaker 1>good project. I've always liked MMDVM, Okay, So I don't

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<v Speaker 1>have any thing against these groups. The old joke goes,

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<v Speaker 1>if you have three Ham radio operators in a city

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<v Speaker 1>living together in the same city, you're going to have

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<v Speaker 1>two different Ham radio clubs in that same city. And

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<v Speaker 1>that is to say that we we tend to like

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<v Speaker 1>to argue. As Ham radio operators, we tend to like

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<v Speaker 1>to argue. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. Just argue

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<v Speaker 1>like an adult, and you know it's okay. Difference of

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<v Speaker 1>opinion is a good thing. So I was just offering speculation,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was offering feedback comments to the article put

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<v Speaker 1>out by Jonathan Naylor, and I'm going to do the

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<v Speaker 1>same thing on this article right here. Another article that

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<v Speaker 1>was shared with me is this one from zero Retries

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<v Speaker 1>zero retries dot org. Now I'm not familiar with with

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<v Speaker 1>this website at all. This is an editor is Steve

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<v Speaker 1>strow N eight G and J and I don't personally

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<v Speaker 1>know this person. But he writes MMDVM verses seventeen and

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<v Speaker 1>he says disclaimer, I'm a big fan of both G

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<v Speaker 1>four klex and SP five WWP and the background information,

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<v Speaker 1>his synopsis, how we got to this point, this kind

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<v Speaker 1>of thing. So he gives a lot of commentary and

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<v Speaker 1>opinion pieces on this topic, just like I am doing. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm really trying not to I'm trying not to take size.

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<v Speaker 1>I had a couple of comments on the original video,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm trying to take side. Let's see what Let's

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<v Speaker 1>see what M venteen Foundation has to say. Here we go.

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<v Speaker 1>On July twelfth, in the Open DV Forum, Jonathan Naylor

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<v Speaker 1>announced the support for M seventeen had been removed from

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<v Speaker 1>the Multi Mode Digital Voice Modem MMDVM package. Thus, when

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<v Speaker 1>this change went into effect, it was a sudden, and

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<v Speaker 1>it was sudden and none announced. Because many MMDVM units

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<v Speaker 1>automatically update with Naylor's updates to MMDVM to automatically patch

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<v Speaker 1>security issues and bugs. Yeah, most of them just update automatically.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't have to click a button or anything. They

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<v Speaker 1>just kind of do it. Naylor's removal of M seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>broke the functionality of MMDVM hotspots and modems such as

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<v Speaker 1>used in repeaters to operate M seventeen. While the M

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen Foundation respects Naylor's decision to make changes to MMDVM,

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<v Speaker 1>which is completely separate project from M seventeen, in this post,

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<v Speaker 1>Naylor made a number of personal, highly opinionated statements directed

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<v Speaker 1>to M seventeen, its principles and technology choices. What follows

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<v Speaker 1>is the M seventeen Foundation's formal response to Naylor's posts.

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<v Speaker 1>Naylor's points I should say by seventeen Foundation board member

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<v Speaker 1>Watjscheck Kasmarski sp five WWP, I really do apologize. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure I said your name wrong. No disrespect meant okay.

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<v Speaker 1>And it goes through these points here, and it does

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<v Speaker 1>a counterpoint for several things that Jonathan Naylor said. Here

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<v Speaker 1>is the one of them that I cut this first topic.

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<v Speaker 1>Here is a counterpoint on the grant from ARDC, and

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<v Speaker 1>this was one of the points that I talked about

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<v Speaker 1>in my first video. So M seventeen's response says, we

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<v Speaker 1>in fact received two grants. Links to those those grants,

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<v Speaker 1>both grant budgets were accepted. AIRDC received reports at the

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<v Speaker 1>end of each grant period. Additionally, in twenty twenty three

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<v Speaker 1>to twenty twenty four, Kasmarski also submitted monthly reports to

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<v Speaker 1>AIRDC and d ARC as. The second grant was issued

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<v Speaker 1>by DARC cqdl g mbH for the salary of Kazmarski.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no reason for AIRDC to analyze our spending again

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<v Speaker 1>as they have already done so good. Okay, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>Like I said about AARDC in the first video, they

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<v Speaker 1>offer grants to nonprofit organizations. They will not offer me

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<v Speaker 1>a grant because I'm a for profit organization, which is

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<v Speaker 1>totally fine, completely fine. So if anyone ever claimed to

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<v Speaker 1>be a nonprofit and then tried to start to sell

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<v Speaker 1>their item, or their ideas, or their concept or the

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<v Speaker 1>hardware for profit, then there would be some probably some

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<v Speaker 1>legal some legal ramvocations behind that, but that does not

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<v Speaker 1>appear to be what's happened here. So again, I'm just

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<v Speaker 1>reading this article at face value. I read Jonathan Naylor's

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<v Speaker 1>article at face value, and I'm gonna read today's article

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<v Speaker 1>at face value as well. Naylor points out the new

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen Foundation isn't much better. A number of the

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<v Speaker 1>star warts were excluded from it when it was formed.

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<v Speaker 1>Rather more sadly, the M seventeen Foundation made no mention

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<v Speaker 1>of a number of people organizations that helped them get

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<v Speaker 1>to where they are now. Okay, and I pointed that

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<v Speaker 1>point out in the first in the first video, we

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<v Speaker 1>never removed M seventeen's response. We never removed any credit

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<v Speaker 1>or comment or or commit history from the GitHub, effectively

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<v Speaker 1>making no mention of a number of people that helped him.

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<v Speaker 1>Kesmarski again apologies for the pronunciation, publicly stated that in

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<v Speaker 1>his opinion, the M seventeen hardware offered by CSI is

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<v Speaker 1>slightly overpriced and might not be purchased by many CSI

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<v Speaker 1>Connects Systems who makes the CS seven thy M seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>radio one of the It was the first actual radio

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<v Speaker 1>to transmit M seventeen over RF, and to my knowledge

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<v Speaker 1>it's still the only one doing M seventeen. Today, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>see CSI offers solid, sturdy radios with bulletproof RF circuitry.

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<v Speaker 1>Kesmarski kept saying that too every time someone asked him,

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<v Speaker 1>but this was somehow overlooked by Naylor. M seventeen Foundation

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<v Speaker 1>advertises CSI's M seventeen products pro bono at every hamfare

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<v Speaker 1>or club, meaning we attend. Heard rumors about seventeen looking

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<v Speaker 1>for charging for commercial entities royalty to include their equipment

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<v Speaker 1>and use their logo. I made a comment on that

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<v Speaker 1>that I had heard that rumor like two months ago,

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<v Speaker 1>two months before the recording of that first video, but

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<v Speaker 1>I never said anything about it because there's just a rumor.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't like to participate in rumors if I don't

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<v Speaker 1>have to. But now we've got some written documentation, and

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<v Speaker 1>he even says. Naylor even says, I have heard rumors

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<v Speaker 1>that the M seventeen Foundation is looking at charging M

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<v Speaker 1>Seventeen's response, in our opinion, using gossip is a very

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<v Speaker 1>low rhetoric figure. I agree with that statement. Let us

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<v Speaker 1>focus on facts instead. M seventeen Foundation never required and

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<v Speaker 1>will not require any commercial entity to pay royalties for

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<v Speaker 1>any form of M seventeen protocol use. The use of

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<v Speaker 1>the M seventeen logo will be free for non commercial use.

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<v Speaker 1>We are still figuring out details behind licensing. The logo

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<v Speaker 1>is being registered under Kasmarski's name as a physical person,

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<v Speaker 1>simply verifiable through a WIPO search. All ip rights will

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<v Speaker 1>be transferred to M seventeen Foundation once the process is complete.

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<v Speaker 1>China and US are two pending jurisdictions. The registration is

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<v Speaker 1>a preventative measure mitigating unauthorized use of the logo. M

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen Foundation doesn't believe that registering the M seventeen logo

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<v Speaker 1>breaks any open source philosophy rules. See this Linux Foundation entry.

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<v Speaker 1>In the case, a piece of text is protected, not

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<v Speaker 1>the image. So I had made a statement about not

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<v Speaker 1>liking open source and talking about how open source I've

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<v Speaker 1>known some open source projects to fail, and several of

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<v Speaker 1>you came along and said, well, Linux is an open

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<v Speaker 1>source project and it's running strong, which of course is correct.

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<v Speaker 1>That's an accurate statement. Okay, what I meant by that,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't dislike open source. I just see it as

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<v Speaker 1>something that has a greater potential of failure in many cases,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe not in every case, but in many cases because

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<v Speaker 1>there's no financial backing behind it, people work the developer

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<v Speaker 1>And what I said in the first video was the

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<v Speaker 1>developers work to release leaset this product. Whatever the product is,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it has to do with ham radio or not.

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<v Speaker 1>The developers of an open source project worked very hard

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<v Speaker 1>to release a product and often do not get recognized

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<v Speaker 1>to the greatest potential. It's often a thankless job, just

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<v Speaker 1>like a repeater being a repeater owner is often a

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<v Speaker 1>thankless job to develop this product, and people just complain

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<v Speaker 1>about it. So a lot of so. And I've seen

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<v Speaker 1>firsthand several open source projects that fall flat on their

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<v Speaker 1>face and go nowhere after a couple of years because

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<v Speaker 1>the developers are just sick of working so much, not

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<v Speaker 1>getting any recognition, not getting any thank you, and not

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<v Speaker 1>making money at it. Linux obviously is not does not

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<v Speaker 1>fall into that category of what I just described. But

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<v Speaker 1>let me ask you this, here's a serious question. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>do you use Linux because it's free or do you

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<v Speaker 1>use Linux because it's the most kick ass operating system

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<v Speaker 1>known to man at this point in time. If they

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<v Speaker 1>started charging for Linux tomorrow, would you buy it? I would?

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<v Speaker 1>I would by Linux to more, I bought Windows. I've

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<v Speaker 1>never used a Mac well long time ago. I bought

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<v Speaker 1>a Mac that had the macOS on it, and it

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<v Speaker 1>was pre macOS ten, a long time ago. I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>like it. I don't think Linux being free is why

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<v Speaker 1>Linux is so popular. I think Linux being free is

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<v Speaker 1>great because it is open source. But I think Linux

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<v Speaker 1>just being a freaking awesome operating system is why it's

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<v Speaker 1>so popular. If it sucked, if it didn't do what

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<v Speaker 1>half of what it was supposed to, if it was

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<v Speaker 1>very cumbersome and hard to use, which is not. There's

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<v Speaker 1>a learning curve to it, obviously, but it's not very cumbersome.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not hard to use once you understand it. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think it would be nearly as popular even if

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<v Speaker 1>it was free. So it's Linux popular and running most

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<v Speaker 1>of the Internet. Is that because it's free or is

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<v Speaker 1>that because it's just works so well? Naylor goes on

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<v Speaker 1>to say, secondly, technical when started M seventeen was proudly

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<v Speaker 1>created by people who said that they brought fresh thinking

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<v Speaker 1>to the digital voice. I would say that it was

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<v Speaker 1>characterized more as a combination of arrogance and stupidity. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>these are his words, the fact that none of them

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<v Speaker 1>have ever operated a digital mode, let alone studied the

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<v Speaker 1>DV mode was seen as a positive, and M seventeen's response,

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<v Speaker 1>ad Personum Kazmarski studied TETRA, DMR and NXDN and he

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<v Speaker 1>repeats that in basically every interview given along with the

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<v Speaker 1>ac ELP voice codec back in twenty eighteen, right off

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<v Speaker 1>the bat, false statement. Okay, so they're refuting that statement. Okay, okay, good.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the key members designed it like a packet

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<v Speaker 1>radio system, where each block of packet of information needed

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<v Speaker 1>is needed to be received perfectly. In other words, no

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<v Speaker 1>forward air correction. M seventeen's response, This is incorrect. In

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen uses forward air correction schemes similar to those one

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<v Speaker 1>seen in other modes. It would almost have to really

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<v Speaker 1>as a digital voice mode, it would almost have to.

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<v Speaker 1>So he goes on to say a lot more stuff here,

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<v Speaker 1>and they break this down very well. They break down

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Naylor's statement, and they reply and refute most of it. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>say right here, Naylor is incorrect. I thought this response

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<v Speaker 1>was very good. Naylor says, an no orphaned vocoder. It

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't sound very good. Either ambient and it's all his

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<v Speaker 1>forms consider are sound considerably better. M. Seventeen's response is,

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<v Speaker 1>we regard it doesn't sound very good either, end quote

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<v Speaker 1>as Naylor's personal opinion, and thus won't discuss. That's taking

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<v Speaker 1>the high road. I respect that, Okay. I get a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people saying, well, DMR sounds so much better

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<v Speaker 1>than fusion, or fusion sounds so much better than DMR,

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<v Speaker 1>or P twenty five sounds better than everything. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>matter of your opinion, because guess what DMR is. Also

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<v Speaker 1>See if people call System fusion C FOURFL, and it is,

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<v Speaker 1>it's four level FSK four level frequency shift keying modulation

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<v Speaker 1>over FM. It is C four FM, But so is DMR.

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<v Speaker 1>DMR is also C four FM. Fusion makes a better

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<v Speaker 1>radio than a lot of the Chinese vendors, not all

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<v Speaker 1>of them, but a lot of the Chinese vendors. So

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes of the quality of signal is just simply because

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking on a fusion radio on System Fusion. But effectively,

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<v Speaker 1>if you listen to all of these modes P twenty

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<v Speaker 1>five phase one even, but P twenty five phase two

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<v Speaker 1>certainly P twenty five Phase two, DMR or system fusion.

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<v Speaker 1>They're almost all exactly the same as far as modulation

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<v Speaker 1>and codec goes. Differences can vary in manufacture of radios, Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>but the mode itself sounds almost exactly the same to me. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>You may not agree, and that's okay, and that's what

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<v Speaker 1>they're saying here as well. Now, if you are using

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<v Speaker 1>system fusion or DMR or even M seventeen, if you're

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<v Speaker 1>interested in checking out a net for any of these modes,

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<v Speaker 1>I highly recommend ham dot Live. Check out ham dot

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<v Speaker 1>Live on their website. You can run a net and

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<v Speaker 1>watch nets being run for free on this web based

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<v Speaker 1>logging platform that works on all systems. Yes, it will

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<v Speaker 1>work on Mac. Yes it will work on Unix because

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<v Speaker 1>it's all web based. Check out ham dot live. You

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<v Speaker 1>can watch other people check in, you can see who's

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<v Speaker 1>waiting in line check in, you can check in yourself.

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<v Speaker 1>You can follow along with any net where the net

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<v Speaker 1>control operator uses ham dot live to log and keep

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<v Speaker 1>track of the net. Ham dot Live is the sponsor

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<v Speaker 1>of today's video. They've been a sponsor of this series

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<v Speaker 1>for several months now. I really thank Sean. Check out

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<v Speaker 1>the video interview I did with him A few months back,

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<v Speaker 1>and thank you ham dot live for supporting the channel.

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<v Speaker 1>Another aspect here is Naylor says the wrong type of

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<v Speaker 1>fec Ford error correction applied badly and M seventeen's response

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<v Speaker 1>this technical point needs some more detail. Assuming nahmor means

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<v Speaker 1>the convolutional encoder used in seventeen, there are two approaches

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<v Speaker 1>if it comes to use zero filled and tail biting.

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen uses the former, as it makes sure that

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<v Speaker 1>the end of the trellis always ends at a known state.

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<v Speaker 1>Tail biting offers better coding rates for short blocks of data,

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<v Speaker 1>but our encoder payloads are two hundred and seventy bits,

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<v Speaker 1>he said. Naylor says it shouldn't really be a problem

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<v Speaker 1>since SM seventeen has said that my software isn't important.

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<v Speaker 1>Seventeen response, please provide substantive references to this statement my

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<v Speaker 1>software isn't important? Where? When? And who? So? In other words,

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<v Speaker 1>to me that says that M seventeen is saying, we

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<v Speaker 1>never said that. Provide proof that we said that where

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<v Speaker 1>is it? And then one more time they kind this

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<v Speaker 1>is the last one. This is the last statement. Naylor

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<v Speaker 1>says there is a need for an open source DV

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<v Speaker 1>mode However, M seventeen is not that mode. M seventeen's

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<v Speaker 1>response is that's Naylor's opinion, and thus we have no comment.

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<v Speaker 1>The conclusion reads as as the above information reflects. M

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen Foundation considers most of Naylor's administrative and technical criticisms invalid.

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<v Speaker 1>Naylor is, of course entitled to his own opinions, technical

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<v Speaker 1>and otherwise, but most of his comments regarding M seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>our opinions, not many statements of fact, And again that's

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<v Speaker 1>the opinion of the M seventeen Foundation. So you got

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<v Speaker 1>three Hams living in the town, and you're gonna have

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<v Speaker 1>two Ham radio clubs. I don't know what, you know what,

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<v Speaker 1>there's probably something that happened that we don't know about.

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<v Speaker 1>What made What makes Jonathan Naylor so anti M seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden, He doesn't really say, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>he kind of gives details. He gives, in my opinion,

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<v Speaker 1>is his stuff that is like, why did you wait

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<v Speaker 1>till now? If all of this is what you're saying

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<v Speaker 1>is true, why did you wait till now? Two years

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<v Speaker 1>into the pro two three years however long it's been

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<v Speaker 1>into the project to say, nobody don't want to include

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<v Speaker 1>that anymore. But there's more to the story than we're

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<v Speaker 1>being told here, which is okay, you know, it may

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<v Speaker 1>not be our business, it may not be my business. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just commenting on an article I found, But I

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<v Speaker 1>would like to know do you guys tend to I

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<v Speaker 1>think the reading through the comments of the first video,

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<v Speaker 1>I think most of you probably tended to side with

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<v Speaker 1>them seventeen on this, not to side with MMDVM. So

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<v Speaker 1>what do you think? Are you siding with MMDVM or

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<v Speaker 1>are you siding with them seventeen? Because if M seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>has followed all of the stipulations from the grant they

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<v Speaker 1>got from AARDC, which it seems like they have, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're still in good standing with THEIRDC, and they're still

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<v Speaker 1>following through on their promises to make a digital voice

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<v Speaker 1>CODEC open source with Kodek two, seems to me like

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<v Speaker 1>they are doing exactly what they should be doing. So

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<v Speaker 1>why the turmoil? What caused all this? I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>If you know, put a comment in the video below.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for watching today.