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Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 1: Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Bck. Every week,
Speaker 1: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host,
Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 7: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zufanski, for the
Speaker 7: program True Murder. The most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 7: History and the authors that have written about them. In
Speaker 7: this collection of thirteen diverse and compelling narratives, writers, among
Speaker 7: them criminals, law enforcement officers, and victims, elevate their personal
Speaker 7: stories of crime into high powered literature. The book also
Speaker 7: includes an interview with Eric Larsen, author of The Devil
Speaker 7: in the White City. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 7: evening is called True Crime Real Stories of Abduction, Addiction, Obsession, murder, grave, robbing,
Speaker 7: and Moore with editor Lee Gutkind. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 7: and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Lee Gutkind, Hi,
Speaker 7: how are you fine? Thank you Congratulations on a very
Speaker 7: very different and very very fascinating and interesting book, and
Speaker 7: congratulations on this fine book True Crimes you're welcome. What
Speaker 7: I wanted to ask is, because this book is so
Speaker 7: different and so unique, that's why I take the effort
Speaker 7: to distinguish it. And so maybe you can tell us,
Speaker 7: as an editor, who you've assembled, what kind of writers? Again,
Speaker 7: I just mentioned it briefly in the introduction, but tell
Speaker 7: us about the assembled writers. What kind of writers, because
Speaker 7: we alluded to that some are criminal summer police officers.
Speaker 7: Tell us about the collection of writers and what was
Speaker 7: the criteria to pick these writers. Tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit about the process of picking the writers that were
Speaker 7: included in this true crime book.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm glad you asked that, because this is kind
Speaker 6: of different in many respects. And what we did, and
Speaker 6: what I did as editor was send out literally advertise,
Speaker 6: send out an announcement all across the world literally for
Speaker 6: people who had true crime stories, real interesting human true
Speaker 6: crime stories that they would like to tell. And I
Speaker 6: asked them, requested that they send essays to me. Send
Speaker 6: these essays to me, and we would select We did
Speaker 6: not commission any of these. We would select them all
Speaker 6: from kind of the big pile, the slush pile of
Speaker 6: manuscripts that we received. And we received over two hundred
Speaker 6: essays from literally all over the world, mostly the United States,
Speaker 6: and they came from people who write this is true,
Speaker 6: but also people who, as you said, very real They're
Speaker 6: not just writers, but very realistic backgrounds. So we have, indeed,
Speaker 6: we have two pieces from police officers. We have pieces
Speaker 6: from criminals who who have been or are continually in jail.
Speaker 6: And we have pieces from journalists who decided to dig
Speaker 6: deep into crimes that were committed horrific crimes in one case,
Speaker 6: the massacre in Arizona in which Gabby Giffords was almost killed,
Speaker 6: in another case a lynching that went all the way
Speaker 6: back to Florida in the nineteen thirties. So we have
Speaker 6: a real different.
Speaker 7: Collection of people, right, So that's very interesting how that
Speaker 7: process was of assembling authors, which is again, like you say,
Speaker 7: very unique in itself. Usually that the authors are approached
Speaker 7: and there was a much different approach with this. Now
Speaker 7: we did talk about that you asked for essays, So
Speaker 7: true crime books are not that usually that format that
Speaker 7: style essay. So tell us why you felt that this
Speaker 7: essay style would be more effective in this true crime collection,
Speaker 7: and yeah, why did you choose this style and why
Speaker 7: do you in what way did you think was going
Speaker 7: to be more effective to tell the stories?
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, sometimes using the word essay is kind of
Speaker 6: a it's kind of a mistake in many ways, because
Speaker 6: the book says real life stories of abduction, addiction, obsession, murder,
Speaker 6: grave robbing, more, And that's what they are. We call
Speaker 6: them essays because they're all in the in what people
Speaker 6: call these days creative nonfiction format, a creative nonfiction presentation.
Speaker 6: And that only and so that only means I'll give
Speaker 6: you two answers to that. That only means that creative
Speaker 6: nonfiction is not only just a story, but it's a
Speaker 6: story in which you learn something about either the people
Speaker 6: involved or the subject, the crimes committed, and perhaps even
Speaker 6: the psychology behind the crimes. So creative nonfiction, that's two words.
Speaker 6: The creative part is is the story part, and the
Speaker 6: nonfiction is the information part. And so that's one aspect.
Speaker 6: And the other aspect is that I believe that these
Speaker 6: pieces are a cut of above from a literary standpoint,
Speaker 6: the more traditional true crime pieces that most people see
Speaker 6: and expect. It goes beyond that. We really wanted excellent
Speaker 6: not just exciting stories, but excellent literary writing and so
Speaker 6: we can refer to them as essays, but they're not
Speaker 6: the traditional this is what I had the Region high
Speaker 6: school essay. They're literally packed with story and packed with
Speaker 6: information at the same time.
Speaker 7: Yes, and this other The idea too, is that as editor,
Speaker 7: what was your role in terms of it Was it
Speaker 7: a traditional role, but what was the role in terms
Speaker 7: of the content itself? And what was your role otherwise
Speaker 7: other than managing that content and editing that content to
Speaker 7: fit this what your plan was for the book? But
Speaker 7: tell us about your role as editor and what that entails.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, the book starts with my introduction, my
Speaker 6: editor's note, which is a long introduction, and it talks
Speaker 6: about a murder that I didn't witness but I was
Speaker 6: close to in high school. And it turns out that
Speaker 6: and something and it's a murder. It's a crime that
Speaker 6: I have never forgotten since high school. And it turns
Speaker 6: out that two very nice young men from I went
Speaker 6: to high school with and graduated high school with. There
Speaker 6: was a small mom and pop grocery store in the
Speaker 6: neighborhood and it was run by seemingly people who hardly
Speaker 6: had a dime. It was a dusty store. It was
Speaker 6: a dirty store. They had very little items to sell.
Speaker 6: But the rumor, you know how these rumors go on
Speaker 6: when in high school, was that they were so dirty
Speaker 6: and so dusty and so old that they were a
Speaker 6: fortune in their store. And the rumor went on and on.
Speaker 6: And these two young men in their late teens, right
Speaker 6: after high school, one day cooked up the idea that
Speaker 6: they wanted to rob the store. And they walked in
Speaker 6: and one of them had a gun from his father's gun,
Speaker 6: and the gun was loaded, and they went in there
Speaker 6: and the old people simply didn't have a dime. They
Speaker 6: were old, and they were poor, and they had no money.
Speaker 6: And one of the of my friends shot them both
Speaker 6: and killed them. And I hunt and these were very
Speaker 6: nice young men and they had never been in any
Speaker 6: serious trouble before. Now it occurred to me what motivated
Speaker 6: these people, to these kids, to commit this absolutely unnecessary,
Speaker 6: ridiculous crime. They ended up with less than twenty dollars.
Speaker 6: And the whole thing made me think about about the
Speaker 6: kind of the essays. And you're asking you this the
Speaker 6: kind of essays I wanted, the kind of stories I
Speaker 6: wanted to publish so real that you know, from the
Speaker 6: time I heard that story until even now as I
Speaker 6: talk to you, I realize that when people are in
Speaker 6: those authentic, scary, suddenly frightening situations, they could do anything.
Speaker 6: Those boys didn't walk into that store only just to kill.
Speaker 6: They went in there because they wanted some money, and
Speaker 6: the circumstances presented itself. God knows what happened in that store,
Speaker 6: but they killed the two old people. And it occurred
Speaker 6: to me that committing these crimes, committing these awful crimes
Speaker 6: so often happened to people who have no business even
Speaker 6: thinking about crime and never ever purposely commit these horrific crimes.
Speaker 6: It's the circumstance that makes you do things that you
Speaker 6: forever regret. And and all of us we're also close
Speaker 6: to making those awful decisions about that ruin our lives
Speaker 6: and ruin the lives of other people. And so when
Speaker 6: I looked at these, all of these two hundred stories
Speaker 6: that true stories that I that I received, I wanted
Speaker 6: to find as many true to life tales that I
Speaker 6: could honest ordinary everyday people, not just not criminals, but
Speaker 6: everyday people who kind of went crazy, who kind of
Speaker 6: lost control at the moment when they could have walked
Speaker 6: away and done nothing, because I think that that that
Speaker 6: these crimes, that that murder, robbery, many spontaneous crimes, are
Speaker 6: decided in a second, in a nanosecond, and it could
Speaker 6: happen to us, to you, to meet, to anyone making
Speaker 6: the wrong decision the wrong time, And so that's kind
Speaker 6: of what I was looking for in many of these stories.
Speaker 7: What I just found interesting in the introduction, most interesting
Speaker 7: and unique was that you said you hopefully I'm not paraphrasing,
Speaker 7: but it basically said that you had an empathy for
Speaker 7: you had an understanding of what it might be to
Speaker 7: be vulnerable enough or be in a position to be
Speaker 7: a victim. But you also seem to be very understanding
Speaker 7: that you very well could have been a perpetrator as well.
Speaker 7: That's very interesting admission. Now, the story that you included
Speaker 7: in here about the lynching of Claude Neil is something
Speaker 7: I had no idea about, and I think it warrants
Speaker 7: that we really use this as a really great example
Speaker 7: of the writing and the kind of stories that are
Speaker 7: included in here. Not that they're all like at this
Speaker 7: level of depravity, of course they couldn't, but this is
Speaker 7: a fact fascinating story, and this incredible story. So why
Speaker 7: don't we talk a little bit about the lynching of
Speaker 7: Claude Neil? And sure, talk about Greenwood and talk about
Speaker 7: the circumstances of a young girl named Lola that was
Speaker 7: pick us back and tell us a little bit about
Speaker 7: Claude Neil and the circumstances that led to this shameful
Speaker 7: chapter in American history.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, there were from the late nineteen eighties
Speaker 6: until the nineteen thirties over five thousand. Can you imagine
Speaker 6: five thousand lynchings of black people in the United States
Speaker 6: over that very short period. And Claude Neil was maybe
Speaker 6: one of the most horrific. He was a young farmhand
Speaker 6: twenty one years old, and he allegedly confessed to raping
Speaker 6: a uh and and killing a white farm girl who
Speaker 6: lived on the farm in which he was working. And
Speaker 6: and I say allegedly because he was he was the
Speaker 6: first suspect that the sheriff and his men went after.
Speaker 6: And uh he and and he allegedly confessed and signed
Speaker 6: a confession with an ex with an ex And so
Speaker 6: who's ex that with an X? So whose ex was that?
Speaker 6: What he knows? But suddenly the town, the area uh
Speaker 6: in Florida went the people went berserk, they went crazy,
Speaker 6: and they they they wanted Claude Neil's blood. They wanted
Speaker 6: to lynch him and to hang him, and to give
Speaker 6: the sheriff his due. Uh. The sheriff wasn't particularly pleased
Speaker 6: with having to deal with Claude Neil, but the sheriff
Speaker 6: decided to protect Neil. Took him out snacking and literally
Speaker 6: out of town and into a neighboring town and a
Speaker 6: neighboring jail, and tried to protect him. But the townspeople
Speaker 6: were just crazy, and they went after Claude. They went
Speaker 6: after Claude Neil, and they captured him. They dragged him
Speaker 6: into the woods, they beat him, they cut off his
Speaker 6: fingers and his toes, and then they hung him in
Speaker 6: front of a large crowd, lots of people. There were
Speaker 6: six people who actually did the deed. And evidently I
Speaker 6: had not seen the photo, but evidently this photo was
Speaker 6: sold unmasks for fifty dollars of anyone who wanted it,
Speaker 6: of Claude Neil hanging from a noose from a tree,
Speaker 6: missing his toes and his fingers and blood, you know,
Speaker 6: reeking pouring out of him. It was an awful, and
Speaker 6: nobody ever knew whether Claude Neil really did this or
Speaker 6: didn't do it, But afterwards things didn't end. Okay.
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Speaker 6: Even at the lynching, everyone who was every black person
Speaker 6: in that area was in danger of just revenge and
Speaker 6: anger by the white folks around, and especially anyone related
Speaker 6: to the Neo family at all. And interestingly enough, right
Speaker 6: the six people who who went after who killed Claude
Speaker 6: Neil also went after a woman, a pregnant woman and
Speaker 6: a little girl who was only three or four years old,
Speaker 6: and the woman was injured so much that her baby,
Speaker 6: the baby she was pregnant with, died. But the book
Speaker 6: opens Sorry, the story opens up introducing the a eighty
Speaker 6: year old character who happened to have been the thirty
Speaker 6: the three year old girl who was huddled beside her
Speaker 6: mother at that point, and for all these years, the
Speaker 6: girl lived in fear and also wanted to find out who,
Speaker 6: I mean, who the six people were, and wanted to
Speaker 6: bring them to justice. And her sixty seven year old
Speaker 6: nephew had dedicated a good deal of his life to
Speaker 6: trying to persuade the FBI and other authorities to come
Speaker 6: back into this area in Florida and rescue them and
Speaker 6: investigate and find out what actually happened. And so it
Speaker 6: starts at that point introducing this woman, this eighty year
Speaker 6: old woman, takes us all the way back through the
Speaker 6: awful crime and the rampage that followed against all of
Speaker 6: the Neil family, and finally it ends up with in
Speaker 6: the end with the FBI finally agreed to come back
Speaker 6: and reinvestigate it.
Speaker 7: And there's another family member, Orlando Williams, that young cousin
Speaker 7: of Ali May, which takes on the mental and perseveres with.
Speaker 6: This case, doesn't he right? Right?
Speaker 7: It's now now there's a different story where they are
Speaker 7: in Greenwood, Florida. Though with this and that you said
Speaker 7: there was people from eleven states. There was invitations to
Speaker 7: the lynching women kids. It was it was amazing, amazing. Yes,
Speaker 7: My point is that that this shocked a lot of people,
Speaker 7: not in this area. In this area, this lynching seemed
Speaker 7: to be well, just pretty normal. But again you said,
Speaker 7: how many lynchings they had in in the US in
Speaker 7: a short period of years. But what how did the
Speaker 7: New York Times depict this? And how did they what
Speaker 7: was the story? How did the story? Was it conveyed
Speaker 7: there in the New York Times?
Speaker 6: I can't remember? Was it? It was conveyed generally as
Speaker 6: as as as a terrible crime. Sure, and UH and
Speaker 6: and it it's it connected to the presidency and the
Speaker 6: the NAACP began to to campaign to have UH to
Speaker 6: launch a much more serious investigation. It made national news
Speaker 6: for a long time, but it did not make a
Speaker 6: great deal of an impact in changing things or in
Speaker 6: finding who who the six men were and bringing them
Speaker 6: to justice.
Speaker 7: Yes, amazing now that you said the FBI finally gets
Speaker 7: in on the investigation. Of course, that's still an ongoing investigation,
Speaker 7: isn't it.
Speaker 6: It's still an ongoing investigation. The six men are all dead,
Speaker 6: and you know, it's the funniest thing. It's just so
Speaker 6: curious and interesting. The six men are dead. There are
Speaker 6: many people, however, who were related to the six men
Speaker 6: who are alive, and many people who allegedly, according to
Speaker 6: the author and according to the other characters, still know
Speaker 6: a lot of the details of what actually happened to
Speaker 6: Claude Neil and who actually did it. And to this
Speaker 6: day we're talking about so long ago, people are still
Speaker 6: afraid to talk, still do not discuss in any great
Speaker 6: detail what actually what they know about what what happened.
Speaker 7: But the Ku Klux Klan seems to be involved in this.
Speaker 6: Well, I think, yes, I think that it was a
Speaker 6: it was a big clan event, and and the six
Speaker 6: men were were certainly clan members, and they were certainly hooded,
Speaker 6: and and and it was certainly and they were the
Speaker 6: Klan was a major force in what happened to Klude.
Speaker 7: And why did you want to include this story? For obvious,
Speaker 7: it's a very very interesting story in it. And obviously
Speaker 7: you were reporting on the Times and reporting on yes,
Speaker 7: you know this this the separate views on you know
Speaker 7: the same thing. You know, you got a little place
Speaker 7: in Greenwood where everybody's standing around and anticipating a lynching.
Speaker 7: In New York Times, people are agast and horror. What
Speaker 7: overall would you like to summarizes Why you would include
Speaker 7: this particular story. What would you trying to illustrate with
Speaker 7: this more than anything else.
Speaker 6: Well, for one thing, it was horrific, and and it
Speaker 6: kind of this is these are thirteen stories, and so
Speaker 6: I wanted to give different pictures of different kinds of
Speaker 6: crime that that ha been in that and that that
Speaker 6: that work committed. And so this was really quite interesting
Speaker 6: and it was the one piece that brought me back,
Speaker 6: that allowed me to provide a historical perspective. But also
Speaker 6: again the theme I explained to you before that to
Speaker 6: me was so important. Yes, the six people were were
Speaker 6: the perpetrators, but as you pointed out, it became an event.
Speaker 6: So many people became involved, people who probably wouldn't have
Speaker 6: necessarily even considered being one of those six events. But
Speaker 6: if six men, but the events begin to to cause
Speaker 6: its own momentum and bring people who are normally people
Speaker 6: who who wouldn't necessarily commit crimes of such violence come
Speaker 6: and watch and be a part of it, and even
Speaker 6: make it into kind of a pageant. This is this
Speaker 6: is not the kind of behavior that probably most people
Speaker 6: have had ever experienced before and so again it was
Speaker 6: this touching of of of people outside of the spectrum
Speaker 6: the crime or the moment brought them in and and
Speaker 6: made them perpetrators, made them part of it. I thought
Speaker 6: that was really quite interesting and and you know, and
Speaker 6: it's just amazing. This was written by a reporter for
Speaker 6: the Saint Petersburg Times with Phanta time by Times Ben Montgomery,
Speaker 6: and it goes to show people say these days also
Speaker 6: that newspaper work is dying, and newspapers are dying, and
Speaker 6: long stories everything is dumb down. But here we have
Speaker 6: a story that's almost ten thousand words, that it's being
Speaker 6: told by all kinds of different points of viewing perspectives.
Speaker 6: And he was able to dig deeply and talk to
Speaker 6: lots of folks and kind of recreate all of the
Speaker 6: events behind the scene that so many people have forgotten.
Speaker 7: Absolutely. And the thing is the creative nonfiction that you're
Speaker 7: talking about too. Less people not understand. There's nothing dialogue
Speaker 7: created or composite characters or anything like that. It's just
Speaker 7: like the very best true crime is written with a
Speaker 7: lot of creative nonfiction devices as well.
Speaker 6: Well. So again, go ahead, the best piece of true crime,
Speaker 6: the literary true crime. The great model, of course, is
Speaker 6: in Cold Blood by Truman Campodi. No one has ever
Speaker 6: said even so they people have questioned his research, no
Speaker 6: one has really questioned the information that he provided. The
Speaker 6: creative part was the fact that he was able to
Speaker 6: take this and structurally and turn it into a riveting
Speaker 6: murder story from beginning to end. And he was able
Speaker 6: to interview people deeply enough so that and he conducted
Speaker 6: four hundred interviews over a period of a half dozen years,
Speaker 6: so he was able to recreate validly and vividly exactly
Speaker 6: what occurred in the events leading up to the crime,
Speaker 6: during the crime, and the events after the crime, and
Speaker 6: so and that's what creative nonfiction writers do. We we
Speaker 6: researched intensely for long periods of time so that our
Speaker 6: facts remain accurate, but so that we can really and
Speaker 6: stories that are incredibly vivid and filled with the tales
Speaker 6: and filled with nuances that that newspaper reporters who report
Speaker 6: crime often don't have the time to do. There there's
Speaker 6: there's another long story uh in this book about the
Speaker 6: uh Gabby Giffords uh murder or or attempted murder as well.
Speaker 6: And it's also written by a uh By, a reporter
Speaker 6: for the Arizona Republic. And this is even longer than
Speaker 6: than than the story that then Montgomery put together. And
Speaker 6: he uh traces back from the beginning of the robo calls,
Speaker 6: when Gabby Gifford was giving a speech and was calling
Speaker 6: people together. He Sean Kinnon traces back from the beginning
Speaker 6: many of the people who received robot calls, robo calls
Speaker 6: inviting them to this shopping area where she would be
Speaker 6: giving a talk. And he interviews these people and talks
Speaker 6: about how they got the call, why they decided to
Speaker 6: go to the shopping center, and what happened to them
Speaker 6: when the bullets started to pop and when the people
Speaker 6: started to fall. And not only does he talk about
Speaker 6: many of the people, give us a really inside look
Speaker 6: at many of the people who just came to hear
Speaker 6: her talk because they admired her. But we learn about
Speaker 6: the shooter early on, actually twenty four hours before the
Speaker 6: event occurs. And we learn where he goes, where he
Speaker 6: tries to buy ammunition for his gun, how he got
Speaker 6: his gun, who he talked to, how he prepared himself.
Speaker 6: Sean put this story together brilliantly with incredible detail. And
Speaker 6: then afterwards, after the shooting occurs, he's stuck with the story.
Speaker 6: Interviewed the two surgeons from the time they got the
Speaker 6: phone call, even before they got the phone call that
Speaker 6: that that they had work to do in the emergency department,
Speaker 6: and follows them far beyond the day that they had
Speaker 6: to do the surgery. So so what we do is
Speaker 6: we do, like Truman Capodi, we researched the heck out
Speaker 6: of what we're doing so that we can tell stories
Speaker 6: that are so vivid and so powerful and create characters
Speaker 6: that are so real that our readers are not going
Speaker 6: to be able We hope put the stories down until
Speaker 6: they're over.
Speaker 7: Why is the gifferent story? Obviously it's a congress woman,
Speaker 7: But it story doesn't end after this article either, because
Speaker 7: after this article there is another dimension to this story
Speaker 7: as well, in terms of gun to control proposed legislation
Speaker 7: after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting.
Speaker 6: So there's a part of me, yes, that's true.
Speaker 7: So maybe for international audience, because we do have a
Speaker 7: big audience in Australia, England and abroad, let's put it
Speaker 7: that way, places like Canada as well. Maybe tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit about just give us an outline of
Speaker 7: the Gifford's story itself and some of the Again you said,
Speaker 7: we cover it from every single angle. Just give us
Speaker 7: a little bit of an overview and why you've felt Again,
Speaker 7: this story is important on for very many reasons. But
Speaker 7: tell us why. This is also a great American story
Speaker 7: and it demonstrates a lot of things just via the
Speaker 7: story itself, it represents a lot of things.
Speaker 6: Well, it's it's it's This collection shows how how the
Speaker 6: most innocent people can can be hurt ruined by crime,
Speaker 6: by murder especially, and the most prominent as well. Nobody
Speaker 6: is immune to people to to terrible things happening to them.
Speaker 6: And in this particular case, Gabrielle Giffords was a congress person,
Speaker 6: a running for her third term, and she was a Democrat,
Speaker 6: but she was a conservative Democrat and actually a former Republican,
Speaker 6: and she was pretty popular. She was quite popular in
Speaker 6: her area around Tucson, New Mexico. And she was married
Speaker 6: to an astronaut. So, I mean, there's no other more American,
Speaker 6: more respected, yeah, all American person than an astronaut to
Speaker 6: the United States, and so and so they were, you know,
Speaker 6: it was like a perfect couple and she had quite
Speaker 6: a career, and she was very articulate, and she was attractive,
Speaker 6: and she was young and and uh uh. Jared Blackner,
Speaker 6: a young man who was who suffered from mental illness,
Speaker 6: was somewhat obsessed by her and decided that he was
Speaker 6: going to not only do away with himself but kill
Speaker 6: her at the same time.
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Speaker 6: I'm and he plotted it out and brought his glock
Speaker 6: to the scene and began shooting and shot uh, Gabby Giffords,
Speaker 6: and also shot a number of other people, as I
Speaker 6: said to you before. So that's that's the story that's
Speaker 6: being told. But it's really an interesting toy story, as
Speaker 6: you've just pointed out what happens next, because the Gabrielle
Speaker 6: Gabrielle Giffords has become one of the people most significant
Speaker 6: in fighting across the United States for gun legislation, gun
Speaker 6: control legislation, and I mean, we have very very lenient,
Speaker 6: very lax rules about guns in the United States. They're
Speaker 6: easy to purchase, you don't have to wait a lot
Speaker 6: of you will. They're easy to purchase, and sometimes you
Speaker 6: don't have to wait to even get your license. You
Speaker 6: can buy guns on the spot. You can buy bullets,
Speaker 6: and frankly, if you want to go kill someone in
Speaker 6: an hour after you buy the gun, you can certainly
Speaker 6: get away. You can certainly try to do that here.
Speaker 6: And so for years the Republicans, the Democrats, conservatives and liberals,
Speaker 6: people from the Western States many respects versus the people
Speaker 6: from the Eastern States have been fighting over gun legislation.
Speaker 6: And the other thing that that's kind of resting here,
Speaker 6: and the other dimension is that mister Lockner had serious
Speaker 6: emotional problems. And the fight in the United States right now,
Speaker 6: well or at least the conversation and the debate, has
Speaker 6: to do with whether we should be uh checking to
Speaker 6: see if people have experienced mental problems, mental health problems
Speaker 6: prior to selling them the guns, and you know, kind
Speaker 6: of looking into the records so that those are the
Speaker 6: issues that have taken that have that have been sparked.
Speaker 6: These are issues that aren't knew, but they were really
Speaker 6: sparked by Gaby Giffords who slowly, by the ways, heroically
Speaker 6: slowly but surely the covering and we probably none of
Speaker 6: us will probably be surprised if she decides to run
Speaker 6: for office at some point, not in the non too
Speaker 6: distant future.
Speaker 7: Right, amazing story. Now tell us about some of the
Speaker 7: other stories. Another one that was I thought was interesting
Speaker 7: is a grave robber about and you call it a
Speaker 7: love story. Tell us a little bit about that story,
Speaker 7: give us a little overview.
Speaker 6: Well, it's actually it's it's a story of a woman
Speaker 6: who falls in love with a man who and and
Speaker 6: the man teaches her how to make money and while
Speaker 6: they travel by by literally robbing the graves of people
Speaker 6: in Peru or at the same time allowing some of
Speaker 6: the people to to to buying artifacts from some of
Speaker 6: the people in villages that she visits. It's it's not
Speaker 6: as uh, it's it's kind of an interesting story because
Speaker 6: because it has more to do with with with love
Speaker 6: and less than it does with with with murder and
Speaker 6: and and mayhem. But it's a it's a different kind
Speaker 6: of story. And again, you have an innocent person, a
Speaker 6: woman from an upper class, middle class family who just
Speaker 6: decides to have some fun and uh and travel and
Speaker 6: see the world and uh, and she gets herself involved
Speaker 6: in a very difficult uh.
Speaker 7: Situation and and tell us more about the love aspect
Speaker 7: of this.
Speaker 6: Well, she has an affair with with with the man
Speaker 6: who introduced her to this, and then they don't see
Speaker 6: each other anymore. It's just kind of like a one
Speaker 6: time passionate and quick incident that that that kind of
Speaker 6: changes her life in many very in a significant way.
Speaker 6: And again it's one of those incidents.
Speaker 10: That that that that could have been rather easily avoided
Speaker 10: and really makes an impact far beyond what one ever expects.
Speaker 6: And this a story that I would like to mention
Speaker 6: in the same regard is is it's called The Biophone,
Speaker 6: and it's written by an author named David McGlenn, and
Speaker 6: it really shows how one crime, one crime, in this case,
Speaker 6: an awful crime, can infect an entire town and neighborhood,
Speaker 6: a city can be reverberations of a crime. An awful
Speaker 6: crime can can spread farm ride and ruling people literally
Speaker 6: ruling people, and ruined the lives of people who were
Speaker 6: only tangentially involved. So this is about a young man
Speaker 6: named Jeremy who the writer David McGlenn, is one of
Speaker 6: Jeremy's very good friends, and and the the somehow and
Speaker 6: for some reason, a uh people burst into his house
Speaker 6: and Jeremy is killed, and Jeremy's brother is killed and
Speaker 6: Jeremy's father is killed, and it's evidently a some sort
Speaker 6: of planned murder. And you would think for the typical
Speaker 6: kind of story that this would turn into a police procedural,
Speaker 6: and and we would find out how they investigate and
Speaker 6: how they find the perpetrators of the crime. But that
Speaker 6: doesn't occur. What we begin to learn is what happens
Speaker 6: to the people who were friends with Jeremy after the crime.
Speaker 6: So the crime is committed, the father and the two
Speaker 6: boys are killed, but then there was kind of a backlash.
Speaker 6: Jeremy was part of the swim team, so too is
Speaker 6: the narrator David, and the entire swimming team kinds to
Speaker 6: seems to kind of lose their energy, and they're they're
Speaker 6: caring about winning or losing or participating, and and and
Speaker 6: kind of falls apart, and and you know, kind of
Speaker 6: disbands the whole high school swim team that Jeremy and
Speaker 6: David and all these other guys were so very much
Speaker 6: a part of. And the captain of the swim team,
Speaker 6: the Star, he literally he locks himself in his car
Speaker 6: and and and he won't come out for for for
Speaker 6: a long for hours, for days. And another member of
Speaker 6: the swim team wrecked. Wrecked, drove around with his Honda
Speaker 6: car crazily. He wrecked it a couple of times. One
Speaker 6: time he had his girl in the car and she
Speaker 6: was smashed through the window, and uh the captain of
Speaker 6: the swim team, a guy named chray Trey Smith, suddenly
Speaker 6: becomes a skinhead, and and and and joined the gang.
Speaker 6: There they all kind of fall apart with with the
Speaker 6: shock and the violence of the assassination of Jeremy, his brother,
Speaker 6: and his dad. And this is the way the story
Speaker 6: goes again, focusing on the innocent people, not necessarily the
Speaker 6: guilty people. We don't then the story ever know who
Speaker 6: killed the three people or why they were killed, but
Speaker 6: we do know that that the narrator finally decides that
Speaker 6: he just can't live in this town. He's a kid still,
Speaker 6: and he can't live in this town anymore. And and
Speaker 6: he was once a rather liberal fellow, didn't quite wasn't
Speaker 6: in any way religious. But but what happened to him
Speaker 6: was he he left his friends. All these friends were
Speaker 6: kind of falling apart, and and he left town and
Speaker 6: his father and joined his father. His parents were divorced.
Speaker 6: He had always lived with his mom, but in this
Speaker 6: case he joined his father and kind of started listening
Speaker 6: to Rush Limbaugh and became a uh yeah, and became
Speaker 6: an avowed follower of churt Ristianity and he just he
Speaker 6: found that was a way out of the torment and
Speaker 6: the suffering of the impact of this murder that took
Speaker 6: place in his neighborhood. So again I've said this before,
Speaker 6: but it really has to do with to me, it
Speaker 6: has to do with the impact of the people who
Speaker 6: commit these crimes or the impact of the people who
Speaker 6: suffer from them after other people commit.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think this Leviathan was a really good example
Speaker 7: of there's a lot of true crime books do cover
Speaker 7: the victims, they have access to the victims families and friends. Yes,
Speaker 7: this was more of a psychological sort of understanding of
Speaker 7: what these people were going through, and not like any
Speaker 7: kind of profound conclusions, but just the sheer impact, the
Speaker 7: weirdness that this crime seemed to deflect off, all of
Speaker 7: the personalities that we're very very close. So it was
Speaker 7: it was almost like family of the victims, so right,
Speaker 7: and so it was felt within that swim team and
Speaker 7: the close friendships and these people really had a dramatic
Speaker 7: effects from this unsolved murder here.
Speaker 6: So I wonder, I mean, as I know this collection
Speaker 6: was these stories were collected a year ago, and you know,
Speaker 6: and so often, you know, one wishes that sure when
Speaker 6: they're true and they're not made up. They're absolutely positively true,
Speaker 6: real people, real names, and you know, and it's it
Speaker 6: kind of makes you the the stories live with you
Speaker 6: in your mind and in your head for long periods
Speaker 6: of time afterwards, because they're real people. You don't usually
Speaker 6: wonder about about what happens in the future to fictional characters,
Speaker 6: but you sure wonder about Yeah, right, you're exactly right,
Speaker 6: So so you know, it would be interesting to go
Speaker 6: back and and and find out what's happened to those
Speaker 6: guys now two years later.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 7: Now for for this book, have any of the authors
Speaker 7: themselves done any promotion being featured in the book themselves
Speaker 7: or or is there any anything like that? Are you
Speaker 7: the person that's doing the interviews speaking on behalf because
Speaker 7: you put this together and you're the editor and to
Speaker 7: the organizer of this or are these people.
Speaker 6: Uh I've been doing when people ask for our marketing
Speaker 6: person in fact books, I'm one person that people ask for.
Speaker 6: But yes, almost all of the writers have been doing
Speaker 6: some promotion and are available for other people. If you
Speaker 6: ever want to talk to some of the authors collective here,
Speaker 6: I'm sure they'd be be excited to do that with you.
Speaker 7: Well, No, what I'm saying is that a lot of
Speaker 7: these stories are gesu from you know, accomplished journalists working
Speaker 7: at different various you know, newspapers, and so these people
Speaker 7: also are are continuous some of these stories or have again,
Speaker 7: you know, ten thousand words is being very involved with
Speaker 7: the subject, which, like you say, is kind of unusual
Speaker 7: for newspapers especially, it's not the trend.
Speaker 6: Let's put it that way, right. I think I think
Speaker 6: some of them are in fact continuing on. There's uh,
Speaker 6: there's a story called The Addict by Lazy Johnson, and
Speaker 6: essentially Lazy is stocked and eventually lured in event kidnapped
Speaker 6: by a former lover, tied up, threatened, kept in isolation
Speaker 6: for a longest, longist period of time. She eventually escapes,
Speaker 6: but but but lived a terrible a terrible a moment
Speaker 6: or or experience with with this former lover of hers,
Speaker 6: and she escaped, the police chased him until he left
Speaker 6: the country. But Lacey has now written and published a
Speaker 6: memoir of the entire not just the event. It's called Trespasses,
Speaker 6: and it was published last year, and she it was
Speaker 6: not only just the just She wrote about just the
Speaker 6: event of being captured and kidnapped and kept in isolation
Speaker 6: for this story. But now it's it's kind of it's
Speaker 6: turned into a book, and that I gather is doing
Speaker 6: very well, so great.
Speaker 7: Now, why did you include that story, that personal story
Speaker 7: of the kidnapping?
Speaker 6: What was it?
Speaker 7: I mean, obviously it's an interesting story, but was there
Speaker 7: something that you there was there some access to information
Speaker 7: that you had again to put a very unique spin
Speaker 7: on it, so it it gave it a different You
Speaker 7: had a different perspective for that story.
Speaker 6: Again, this moment was doing nothing but working as an editor,
Speaker 6: and at one point the cashier at at kmart and
Speaker 6: and she was taken by surprise, just like so many
Speaker 6: of us could be, for all kinds of different reasons.
Speaker 6: And and and lord, she knew this man was stalking her.
Speaker 6: He was a former lover, and she should have known better.
Speaker 6: But when he lured her into a basement. But but
Speaker 6: again it's it's to me, it's so real. It's so
Speaker 6: much like something that could have happened to to to me,
Speaker 6: to you, to somebody else. But so and and also
Speaker 6: about all these stories, as I said to you, is
Speaker 6: when I meant they were literary I mean they were,
Speaker 6: they're really written incredibly well. These uh Lacy for example,
Speaker 6: has a PhD and creative writing and uh so, and
Speaker 6: she's now at work on a on another memoir. So
Speaker 6: she has a lot of experience. She studied writing for
Speaker 6: for eight years. She's read uh uh deeply into the
Speaker 6: whole world of literature, and and I think that she
Speaker 6: and she's published significantly in many different places and so
Speaker 6: and so it's a it's a high quality look at
Speaker 6: a dirty rotten crown.
Speaker 7: Now you've also included which would we appeal to a
Speaker 7: lot of true crime people. We can't get enough of
Speaker 7: this guy and some of the subject matter that he's
Speaker 7: especially known for Eric Larson. So for those people again
Speaker 7: that don't quite know who Eric Larsen is in the
Speaker 7: Devil in the White City, tell us is briefly what
Speaker 7: that book is subject, who the subject of that book is,
Speaker 7: and tell us a little bit about the interview with
Speaker 7: Eric Larson.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, Devil in White City. I noted this week,
Speaker 6: how by the way, that its tenth anniversary edition, ten
Speaker 6: years after publication, has been published, and it's kind of
Speaker 6: on a certain level an exploration of in the eighteen
Speaker 6: ninety three Columbian Exposition in Chicago. And the book also
Speaker 6: tells an interesting tale of a guy, a hotel owner
Speaker 6: named h ah Holmes, who is a serial killer, and
Speaker 6: he he kind of lured attendees of the Chicago Fair
Speaker 6: who were obviously unsuspecting to a hotel that he built.
Speaker 6: And the hotel was equipped with all kinds of strange
Speaker 6: and and kind of scary stuff like an acid that
Speaker 6: a diffection table, even a crematorium. And it's a true story,
Speaker 6: completely true story, vivid and accurate, and and Larson was
Speaker 6: a finalist for he won an Edgar Award, but he
Speaker 6: was a finalist for the National Book Award, which is
Speaker 6: a really big deal as well. Since that time, he's
Speaker 6: written many of these true crime, deeply historical books. I
Speaker 6: enjoyed in the Garden of Beasts, which was I believe
Speaker 6: his last book, and it's about the mostly about the
Speaker 6: daughter of the US ambassador to Hitler's Germany in the
Speaker 6: nineteen thirties, and she was a rather frisky person and
Speaker 6: she had affairs with a number of German officers and
Speaker 6: and kind of ran around in around Berlin during the
Speaker 6: periods of the thirties, while lots of terrible things were
Speaker 6: happening in the country and beyond. So that's that's his
Speaker 6: latest books. A fascinating book and the interview I talked
Speaker 6: to you before about how hard creative nonfiction writers work
Speaker 6: to make sure that you that they get the facts
Speaker 6: and they make sure that it's incredibly accurate and Larsen
Speaker 6: I was astounded, pleased and astounded to find out that
Speaker 6: Larsen is an incredibly serious researcher. It's like to him,
Speaker 6: the whole pile of research is a big mystery that
Speaker 6: he has to go through. And one of the first
Speaker 6: things he does, as he describes in this interview, he
Speaker 6: goes to the Library of Congress and he plants himself there.
Speaker 6: He camps there, and he goes through the through tons,
Speaker 6: you know, cartons and cartons of notes and transcripts, just
Speaker 6: as the very beginning of his research to any of
Speaker 6: his books, and spends as much time as he needs
Speaker 6: to spend doing that before he goes into the second
Speaker 6: stages of research.
Speaker 7: And what else did do? What else did you get
Speaker 7: from him in terms of commonality, in terms of the
Speaker 7: way you might approach editing and collecting and research. Was
Speaker 7: there any commonalities or what did you learn from this interview?
Speaker 7: Did you didn't know? And what did you sort of
Speaker 7: gain affirmation saying, jeez, that's right in line with what
Speaker 7: I try to do.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, he does all this research and he
Speaker 6: meticulously collects it, but he's looking all the time for
Speaker 6: the storylines. So, as I said to you earlier, the
Speaker 6: idea of creative nonfiction is to tell a story and
Speaker 6: communicate in for interesting information. So the first thing you
Speaker 6: kind of tried to do, and this is what Larson does.
Speaker 6: He digs up the really fascinating information and that's terrific,
Speaker 6: and he kind of catalogs that information, but then he
Speaker 6: looks for storylines, waste what stories that will enable him
Speaker 6: to tell his readers about the information. And then when
Speaker 6: he finds out who the characters are in the story
Speaker 6: and where the stories took place, his next step is
Speaker 6: to research the characters, find out who they are, what
Speaker 6: they look like, their habits, their friends, their mode of dress.
Speaker 6: And then he goes and visits I remember, he writes
Speaker 6: a lot about history, recreates history, and so he goes
Speaker 6: and visits the sights that his stories take place, and
Speaker 6: he slowly but surely pieces together a suspenseful, often chronological
Speaker 6: narrative to tell a story. In his vivid ants and
Speaker 6: mysterious ways, he can to keep his readers riveted. And
Speaker 6: this is what creative nonfiction writers do. But he makes
Speaker 6: it even much more difficult. Well, he makes it much more.
Speaker 6: He takes a much more challenging situation because he's doing history.
Speaker 6: Historians for years have been writing historical fiction. But now
Speaker 6: someone like like like Larson has demonstrated that you can write.
Speaker 6: You don't have to be there watching anyone, you don't
Speaker 6: have to interview anyone. Really, you just have to research
Speaker 6: the heck out of something and be patient and look
Speaker 6: for the stories that history and documentation will tell you.
Speaker 6: And so and he has certain rules like like in
Speaker 6: Larson's work and also in Compoe's work, he'll tell you
Speaker 6: what it is, even though even though he he has
Speaker 6: never talked to his characters, he will tell you. This
Speaker 6: is the other thing creative nonfiction writers do. If you
Speaker 6: reach significant if you research significantly enough and deeply enough,
Speaker 6: he'll tell you what the what the characters are thinking.
Speaker 6: He'll tell you what the characters might have said or
Speaker 6: did say based upon transcripts and other documentation. It's really
Speaker 6: question of how much patience you have, how much determination
Speaker 6: you have, how deeply you are willing to go in
Speaker 6: order to flesh out to dig up every kind of
Speaker 6: morsel of information available to you.
Speaker 7: And Eric Larson has been very successful with Devil in
Speaker 7: the White City especially. That's probably the main reason why
Speaker 7: it's the tenth anniversary is being celebrated so much. There's
Speaker 7: now books ten twenty thirty years old that now are
Speaker 7: become the new legion of true crime classics. And that
Speaker 7: book has been around four years and people know of
Speaker 7: it and now it is just official for those that
Speaker 7: have not heard of the story, have not read his work,
Speaker 7: it's a certified true crime classics. So employing those techniques
Speaker 7: has worked very well for him.
Speaker 6: Certainly, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 7: Now some of the maybe you could just tell us
Speaker 7: all the writers that are have been included in in
Speaker 7: the book true crime and uh, maybe we just spoke
Speaker 7: of a couple, but tell us about all of the
Speaker 7: people that are involved and in this fine book.
Speaker 6: Well, as I mentioned, there are a couple of of
Speaker 6: police officers and and one is Vance Boyles, who is
Speaker 6: a detective and the story he writes is it's called Regret.
Speaker 6: And again a very interesting story. It's a story of
Speaker 6: an alleged rape. A woman calls and and reports it's
Speaker 6: the fact that that she was raped, and he vance boils.
Speaker 6: A detective gets the case and he interviews her and
Speaker 6: he begins to to suspect that perhaps she's not telling
Speaker 6: the truth, and so he tries to contact He in fact,
Speaker 6: contents contacts uh the young man who she is accusing,
Speaker 6: and the young man becomes very nervous. The whole idea
Speaker 6: of this woman accusing him of doing something that he
Speaker 6: didn't do makes it and then getting a phone call
Speaker 6: from police officer makes him nervous, and he begins and
Speaker 6: he backs away from talking from with vance Boils and
Speaker 6: gets an attorney and refuses to be cooperative. And all
Speaker 6: vance Boyles wants. The detective wants to do is to
Speaker 6: just talk to n because he's convinced that the girl
Speaker 6: is not telling the truth. But he needs to have
Speaker 6: a statement, a direct conversation with this young man before
Speaker 6: he files his more official reports, and he knows that
Speaker 6: once he files the official report, the young man's going
Speaker 6: to get into big trouble. But the young man gets
Speaker 6: an attorney. The attorney advises him to not speak to
Speaker 6: the police officer. And Vance is a very nice, as
Speaker 6: I said, easygoing, cooperative man, and all he wanted to
Speaker 6: do was was kind of go through the numbers and
Speaker 6: talk to the young man. And the young man refused,
Speaker 6: and unfortunately he did not receive judge justice. He went
Speaker 6: to jail. He was tried and convicted and went to jail.
Speaker 6: And so Vance Boyles is uh. Also, I should say
Speaker 6: also to you that I mentioned to you that Lacy
Speaker 6: Johnson was a was a person who studied writing. There
Speaker 6: are four or five people in this book who who
Speaker 6: have literally gotten degrees in creative writing, and Vance Boyles
Speaker 6: is one of them. Is along with Lacey and Stephen Church,
Speaker 6: who who's part of this book writing a lot about
Speaker 6: Mike the savagery of Mike Tyson teaches creative writing in California.
Speaker 6: And David Dyke in the Death of a Family is
Speaker 6: actually the sun a really wonderful writer and the son
Speaker 6: of the you know, one of the most famous American
Speaker 6: writers of all time, John Updike. Right, So this is
Speaker 6: a really terrific collection.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And when did this book colloquially.
Speaker 6: It came out about four or five months.
Speaker 7: Ago, four or five months ago, right, And I guess
Speaker 7: you've been doing a fair amount of interviews for this
Speaker 7: book as.
Speaker 6: Well, been doing interviews talking about the book, talking about
Speaker 6: about about the themes in the book, and the fact
Speaker 6: that that that these are absolutely superior pieces of literature
Speaker 6: in addition to being great crime stories.
Speaker 7: Absolutely. Now, if people are interested, is it this is
Speaker 7: published by in Fact Books?
Speaker 6: Is it?
Speaker 7: Where's the best place they get? Obviously everybody knows you
Speaker 7: at Barnes and the Amazon dot com and then Canada
Speaker 7: chapters and but is there any benefit of going to
Speaker 7: in Fact to get the book itself or to your website?
Speaker 7: What do you recommend and tell us a little bit.
Speaker 6: About I think the best thing to do is to
Speaker 6: go to the bookstores, your independent bookstore or Barnes and
Speaker 6: Noble or order from Amazon. If you want any of
Speaker 6: the writers or me the editor to literally autograph the
Speaker 6: book for you, and you can go to the in
Speaker 6: Fact Books website right and order from order from Impact
Speaker 6: directly and just you know, write a note or give
Speaker 6: them a call and say that you'd like me or
Speaker 6: any either writers to autograph it and we'll make sure
Speaker 6: that that happens.
Speaker 7: Well, that's great, Yeah, lots of times websites now offer
Speaker 7: something personal like that, so that if somebody really wants
Speaker 7: something like that, you're surely not going to get it
Speaker 7: from Amazon. So that would be a nice addition to
Speaker 7: somebody it's really really interested in the book and once
Speaker 7: that collector's editions, as so many people do. I know
Speaker 7: that's been it's been very good talking to Lee about
Speaker 7: this true crime Well.
Speaker 6: Thank you, nice to talk with you. Thanks for asking
Speaker 6: me to speak about the book.
Speaker 7: Well that You're very welcome. It's been my pleasure. It's
Speaker 7: people been listening to true crime real stories of abduction, addiction, obsession, murder,
Speaker 7: grave robbing, and more with editor Lee Guttkind. Well, thank
Speaker 7: you very much for this interview and hope to hear
Speaker 7: from you again real soon. Lee, thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Thank you, have a good bye bye YouTube.
Speaker 7: Thank you Today.
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