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No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by law 23 00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:00.200 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for detail. 24 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:02.960 Loop Tadian. 25 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:15.439 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 26 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:18.560 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 27 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:26.200 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Bck. Every week, 28 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.200 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 29 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:34.280 killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:37.120 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.519 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zufanski, for the 32 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:53.680 program True Murder. The most shocking killers in true crime 33 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:57.519 History and the authors that have written about them. In 34 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:02.439 this collection of thirteen diverse and compelling narratives, writers, among 35 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:07.359 them criminals, law enforcement officers, and victims, elevate their personal 36 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:11.159 stories of crime into high powered literature. The book also 37 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:14.080 includes an interview with Eric Larsen, author of The Devil 38 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:16.960 in the White City. The book that we're featuring this 39 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:24.759 evening is called True Crime Real Stories of Abduction, Addiction, Obsession, murder, grave, robbing, 40 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:30.639 and Moore with editor Lee Gutkind. Welcome to the program, 41 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:35.159 and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Lee Gutkind, Hi, 42 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:41.120 how are you fine? Thank you Congratulations on a very 43 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:45.759 very different and very very fascinating and interesting book, and 44 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:53.479 congratulations on this fine book True Crimes you're welcome. What 45 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:56.000 I wanted to ask is, because this book is so 46 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:58.599 different and so unique, that's why I take the effort 47 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:02.280 to distinguish it. And so maybe you can tell us, 48 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:07.879 as an editor, who you've assembled, what kind of writers? Again, 49 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:12.280 I just mentioned it briefly in the introduction, but tell 50 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:14.960 us about the assembled writers. What kind of writers, because 51 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.639 we alluded to that some are criminal summer police officers. 52 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:22.439 Tell us about the collection of writers and what was 53 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:24.680 the criteria to pick these writers. Tell us a little 54 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.080 bit about the process of picking the writers that were 55 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:29.280 included in this true crime book. 56 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.719 Well, I'm glad you asked that, because this is kind 57 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:38.800 of different in many respects. And what we did, and 58 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:43.400 what I did as editor was send out literally advertise, 59 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:48.400 send out an announcement all across the world literally for 60 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:55.960 people who had true crime stories, real interesting human true 61 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:59.840 crime stories that they would like to tell. And I 62 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.199 asked them, requested that they send essays to me. Send 63 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:06.280 these essays to me, and we would select We did 64 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.120 not commission any of these. We would select them all 65 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:11.840 from kind of the big pile, the slush pile of 66 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:16.600 manuscripts that we received. And we received over two hundred 67 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.240 essays from literally all over the world, mostly the United States, 68 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.680 and they came from people who write this is true, 69 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:28.120 but also people who, as you said, very real They're 70 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:35.199 not just writers, but very realistic backgrounds. So we have, indeed, 71 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:39.600 we have two pieces from police officers. We have pieces 72 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:44.639 from criminals who who have been or are continually in jail. 73 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:49.519 And we have pieces from journalists who decided to dig 74 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:55.000 deep into crimes that were committed horrific crimes in one case, 75 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:04.560 the massacre in Arizona in which Gabby Giffords was almost killed, 76 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:08.279 in another case a lynching that went all the way 77 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.240 back to Florida in the nineteen thirties. So we have 78 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:14.360 a real different. 79 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:19.319 Collection of people, right, So that's very interesting how that 80 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.000 process was of assembling authors, which is again, like you say, 81 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:27.399 very unique in itself. Usually that the authors are approached 82 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:30.199 and there was a much different approach with this. Now 83 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:34.720 we did talk about that you asked for essays, So 84 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:38.720 true crime books are not that usually that format that 85 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.879 style essay. So tell us why you felt that this 86 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:47.199 essay style would be more effective in this true crime collection, 87 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:52.120 and yeah, why did you choose this style and why 88 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.120 do you in what way did you think was going 89 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:56.319 to be more effective to tell the stories? 90 00:05:56.360 --> 00:06:01.399 Well, yeah, sometimes using the word essay is kind of 91 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:04.439 a it's kind of a mistake in many ways, because 92 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:09.079 the book says real life stories of abduction, addiction, obsession, murder, 93 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.199 grave robbing, more, And that's what they are. We call 94 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:15.399 them essays because they're all in the in what people 95 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:21.000 call these days creative nonfiction format, a creative nonfiction presentation. 96 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:24.360 And that only and so that only means I'll give 97 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:27.480 you two answers to that. That only means that creative 98 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:31.560 nonfiction is not only just a story, but it's a 99 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.439 story in which you learn something about either the people 100 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:40.680 involved or the subject, the crimes committed, and perhaps even 101 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:45.560 the psychology behind the crimes. So creative nonfiction, that's two words. 102 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:49.199 The creative part is is the story part, and the 103 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:53.959 nonfiction is the information part. And so that's one aspect. 104 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:58.120 And the other aspect is that I believe that these 105 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:02.319 pieces are a cut of above from a literary standpoint, 106 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.959 the more traditional true crime pieces that most people see 107 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:13.079 and expect. It goes beyond that. We really wanted excellent 108 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:17.560 not just exciting stories, but excellent literary writing and so 109 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.959 we can refer to them as essays, but they're not 110 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:23.759 the traditional this is what I had the Region high 111 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:28.000 school essay. They're literally packed with story and packed with 112 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:29.519 information at the same time. 113 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:39.040 Yes, and this other The idea too, is that as editor, 114 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.560 what was your role in terms of it Was it 115 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.199 a traditional role, but what was the role in terms 116 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:50.839 of the content itself? And what was your role otherwise 117 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:54.600 other than managing that content and editing that content to 118 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.199 fit this what your plan was for the book? But 119 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:02.800 tell us about your role as editor and what that entails. 120 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:07.639 Well, you know, the book starts with my introduction, my 121 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:12.120 editor's note, which is a long introduction, and it talks 122 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:17.160 about a murder that I didn't witness but I was 123 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:19.759 close to in high school. And it turns out that 124 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:23.000 and something and it's a murder. It's a crime that 125 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:26.439 I have never forgotten since high school. And it turns 126 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:29.600 out that two very nice young men from I went 127 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:34.519 to high school with and graduated high school with. There 128 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:37.759 was a small mom and pop grocery store in the 129 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:43.440 neighborhood and it was run by seemingly people who hardly 130 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.879 had a dime. It was a dusty store. It was 131 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:50.320 a dirty store. They had very little items to sell. 132 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:52.919 But the rumor, you know how these rumors go on 133 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:56.600 when in high school, was that they were so dirty 134 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.480 and so dusty and so old that they were a 135 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:04.399 fortune in their store. And the rumor went on and on. 136 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.759 And these two young men in their late teens, right 137 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.279 after high school, one day cooked up the idea that 138 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:16.120 they wanted to rob the store. And they walked in 139 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.000 and one of them had a gun from his father's gun, 140 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.360 and the gun was loaded, and they went in there 141 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:25.960 and the old people simply didn't have a dime. They 142 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:28.519 were old, and they were poor, and they had no money. 143 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:33.360 And one of the of my friends shot them both 144 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:37.639 and killed them. And I hunt and these were very 145 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:40.320 nice young men and they had never been in any 146 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:45.039 serious trouble before. Now it occurred to me what motivated 147 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:52.039 these people, to these kids, to commit this absolutely unnecessary, 148 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:55.320 ridiculous crime. They ended up with less than twenty dollars. 149 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:58.679 And the whole thing made me think about about the 150 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:01.360 kind of the essays. And you're asking you this the 151 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:04.440 kind of essays I wanted, the kind of stories I 152 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:10.440 wanted to publish so real that you know, from the 153 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:13.480 time I heard that story until even now as I 154 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:17.759 talk to you, I realize that when people are in 155 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:24.440 those authentic, scary, suddenly frightening situations, they could do anything. 156 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:30.360 Those boys didn't walk into that store only just to kill. 157 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:33.679 They went in there because they wanted some money, and 158 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:39.159 the circumstances presented itself. God knows what happened in that store, 159 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:42.519 but they killed the two old people. And it occurred 160 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:46.639 to me that committing these crimes, committing these awful crimes 161 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:51.120 so often happened to people who have no business even 162 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:58.600 thinking about crime and never ever purposely commit these horrific crimes. 163 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:02.120 It's the circumstance that makes you do things that you 164 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:07.080 forever regret. And and all of us we're also close 165 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.720 to making those awful decisions about that ruin our lives 166 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:14.240 and ruin the lives of other people. And so when 167 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:17.000 I looked at these, all of these two hundred stories 168 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:22.279 that true stories that I that I received, I wanted 169 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.720 to find as many true to life tales that I 170 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:32.639 could honest ordinary everyday people, not just not criminals, but 171 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.159 everyday people who kind of went crazy, who kind of 172 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:39.039 lost control at the moment when they could have walked 173 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.559 away and done nothing, because I think that that that 174 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:51.360 these crimes, that that murder, robbery, many spontaneous crimes, are 175 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:55.519 decided in a second, in a nanosecond, and it could 176 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.879 happen to us, to you, to meet, to anyone making 177 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:02.240 the wrong decision the wrong time, And so that's kind 178 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.080 of what I was looking for in many of these stories. 179 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:10.519 What I just found interesting in the introduction, most interesting 180 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:15.200 and unique was that you said you hopefully I'm not paraphrasing, 181 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:18.200 but it basically said that you had an empathy for 182 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:21.879 you had an understanding of what it might be to 183 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:24.080 be vulnerable enough or be in a position to be 184 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.919 a victim. But you also seem to be very understanding 185 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:30.480 that you very well could have been a perpetrator as well. 186 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:39.000 That's very interesting admission. Now, the story that you included 187 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.639 in here about the lynching of Claude Neil is something 188 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:46.960 I had no idea about, and I think it warrants 189 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:50.799 that we really use this as a really great example 190 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:53.440 of the writing and the kind of stories that are 191 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.919 included in here. Not that they're all like at this 192 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.559 level of depravity, of course they couldn't, but this is 193 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:03.679 a fact fascinating story, and this incredible story. So why 194 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.360 don't we talk a little bit about the lynching of 195 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:10.879 Claude Neil? And sure, talk about Greenwood and talk about 196 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:15.320 the circumstances of a young girl named Lola that was 197 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:19.120 pick us back and tell us a little bit about 198 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:23.759 Claude Neil and the circumstances that led to this shameful 199 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:25.120 chapter in American history. 200 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:31.159 Well, you know, there were from the late nineteen eighties 201 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:37.240 until the nineteen thirties over five thousand. Can you imagine 202 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:42.960 five thousand lynchings of black people in the United States 203 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.879 over that very short period. And Claude Neil was maybe 204 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:51.639 one of the most horrific. He was a young farmhand 205 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:59.679 twenty one years old, and he allegedly confessed to raping 206 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:07.279 a uh and and killing a white farm girl who 207 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:11.159 lived on the farm in which he was working. And 208 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.240 and I say allegedly because he was he was the 209 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:19.360 first suspect that the sheriff and his men went after. 210 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:24.240 And uh he and and he allegedly confessed and signed 211 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.600 a confession with an ex with an ex And so 212 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.039 who's ex that with an X? So whose ex was that? 213 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:34.919 What he knows? But suddenly the town, the area uh 214 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:40.360 in Florida went the people went berserk, they went crazy, 215 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:45.519 and they they they wanted Claude Neil's blood. They wanted 216 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.320 to lynch him and to hang him, and to give 217 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.759 the sheriff his due. Uh. The sheriff wasn't particularly pleased 218 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:55.399 with having to deal with Claude Neil, but the sheriff 219 00:14:55.519 --> 00:15:00.720 decided to protect Neil. Took him out snacking and literally 220 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:04.080 out of town and into a neighboring town and a 221 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.919 neighboring jail, and tried to protect him. But the townspeople 222 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:14.480 were just crazy, and they went after Claude. They went 223 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:19.559 after Claude Neil, and they captured him. They dragged him 224 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:22.840 into the woods, they beat him, they cut off his 225 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:27.039 fingers and his toes, and then they hung him in 226 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.919 front of a large crowd, lots of people. There were 227 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:35.440 six people who actually did the deed. And evidently I 228 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:38.960 had not seen the photo, but evidently this photo was 229 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:42.720 sold unmasks for fifty dollars of anyone who wanted it, 230 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.799 of Claude Neil hanging from a noose from a tree, 231 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.679 missing his toes and his fingers and blood, you know, 232 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:54.440 reeking pouring out of him. It was an awful, and 233 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.639 nobody ever knew whether Claude Neil really did this or 234 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:04.159 didn't do it, But afterwards things didn't end. Okay. 235 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:07.879 Round two, Name something that's not boring. 236 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:12.279 Laundry, book club, computer solitaire. 237 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:19.440 Huh oh, Sorry, we were looking for Chumba casino to chum. 238 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.360 That's right, chumbacasino dot com as over one hundred casino 239 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:24.720 style games joined today and play for free for your 240 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.600 chance to redeem some serious prizes. 241 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:31.919 Chum chumbacasino dot com Ody plus firs. 242 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:33.399 Condition of the bus website retails. 243 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:37.159 Even at the lynching, everyone who was every black person 244 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:42.840 in that area was in danger of just revenge and 245 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:47.799 anger by the white folks around, and especially anyone related 246 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:54.279 to the Neo family at all. And interestingly enough, right 247 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:58.879 the six people who who went after who killed Claude 248 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:04.160 Neil also went after a woman, a pregnant woman and 249 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:09.480 a little girl who was only three or four years old, 250 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:15.480 and the woman was injured so much that her baby, 251 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:19.839 the baby she was pregnant with, died. But the book 252 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:26.440 opens Sorry, the story opens up introducing the a eighty 253 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:31.440 year old character who happened to have been the thirty 254 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.359 the three year old girl who was huddled beside her 255 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:38.279 mother at that point, and for all these years, the 256 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:42.079 girl lived in fear and also wanted to find out who, 257 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.079 I mean, who the six people were, and wanted to 258 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.079 bring them to justice. And her sixty seven year old 259 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.960 nephew had dedicated a good deal of his life to 260 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:57.400 trying to persuade the FBI and other authorities to come 261 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.119 back into this area in Florida and rescue them and 262 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:07.680 investigate and find out what actually happened. And so it 263 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.599 starts at that point introducing this woman, this eighty year 264 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:14.119 old woman, takes us all the way back through the 265 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.480 awful crime and the rampage that followed against all of 266 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:22.599 the Neil family, and finally it ends up with in 267 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.880 the end with the FBI finally agreed to come back 268 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:27.039 and reinvestigate it. 269 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:33.880 And there's another family member, Orlando Williams, that young cousin 270 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:39.359 of Ali May, which takes on the mental and perseveres with. 271 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.599 This case, doesn't he right? Right? 272 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.759 It's now now there's a different story where they are 273 00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:50.400 in Greenwood, Florida. Though with this and that you said 274 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.279 there was people from eleven states. There was invitations to 275 00:18:54.319 --> 00:19:00.720 the lynching women kids. It was it was amazing, amazing. Yes, 276 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:05.240 My point is that that this shocked a lot of people, 277 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:07.920 not in this area. In this area, this lynching seemed 278 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.599 to be well, just pretty normal. But again you said, 279 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.000 how many lynchings they had in in the US in 280 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:17.079 a short period of years. But what how did the 281 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.000 New York Times depict this? And how did they what 282 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.200 was the story? How did the story? Was it conveyed 283 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.559 there in the New York Times? 284 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:31.440 I can't remember? Was it? It was conveyed generally as 285 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:36.599 as as as a terrible crime. Sure, and UH and 286 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:43.400 and it it's it connected to the presidency and the 287 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:51.519 the NAACP began to to campaign to have UH to 288 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:56.000 launch a much more serious investigation. It made national news 289 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:58.319 for a long time, but it did not make a 290 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:02.200 great deal of an impact in changing things or in 291 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:06.680 finding who who the six men were and bringing them 292 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.079 to justice. 293 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:14.759 Yes, amazing now that you said the FBI finally gets 294 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.319 in on the investigation. Of course, that's still an ongoing investigation, 295 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:19.799 isn't it. 296 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:25.720 It's still an ongoing investigation. The six men are all dead, 297 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:30.759 and you know, it's the funniest thing. It's just so 298 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:34.440 curious and interesting. The six men are dead. There are 299 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:39.039 many people, however, who were related to the six men 300 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.680 who are alive, and many people who allegedly, according to 301 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.119 the author and according to the other characters, still know 302 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.839 a lot of the details of what actually happened to 303 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:54.640 Claude Neil and who actually did it. And to this 304 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.599 day we're talking about so long ago, people are still 305 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:02.680 afraid to talk, still do not discuss in any great 306 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:07.119 detail what actually what they know about what what happened. 307 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:14.039 But the Ku Klux Klan seems to be involved in this. 308 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.759 Well, I think, yes, I think that it was a 309 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.039 it was a big clan event, and and the six 310 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.400 men were were certainly clan members, and they were certainly hooded, 311 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:31.960 and and and it was certainly and they were the 312 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:34.400 Klan was a major force in what happened to Klude. 313 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:40.680 And why did you want to include this story? For obvious, 314 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:44.119 it's a very very interesting story in it. And obviously 315 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.960 you were reporting on the Times and reporting on yes, 316 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:50.440 you know this this the separate views on you know 317 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:52.079 the same thing. You know, you got a little place 318 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.720 in Greenwood where everybody's standing around and anticipating a lynching. 319 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.240 In New York Times, people are agast and horror. What 320 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:02.839 overall would you like to summarizes Why you would include 321 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:06.920 this particular story. What would you trying to illustrate with 322 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:08.400 this more than anything else. 323 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:13.680 Well, for one thing, it was horrific, and and it 324 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:17.200 kind of this is these are thirteen stories, and so 325 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:21.400 I wanted to give different pictures of different kinds of 326 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.680 crime that that ha been in that and that that 327 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.720 that work committed. And so this was really quite interesting 328 00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:30.759 and it was the one piece that brought me back, 329 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:35.319 that allowed me to provide a historical perspective. But also 330 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:39.160 again the theme I explained to you before that to 331 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.680 me was so important. Yes, the six people were were 332 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:48.039 the perpetrators, but as you pointed out, it became an event. 333 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:54.519 So many people became involved, people who probably wouldn't have 334 00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:58.599 necessarily even considered being one of those six events. But 335 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:03.759 if six men, but the events begin to to cause 336 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:08.000 its own momentum and bring people who are normally people 337 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:13.200 who who wouldn't necessarily commit crimes of such violence come 338 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:16.480 and watch and be a part of it, and even 339 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.720 make it into kind of a pageant. This is this 340 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:23.279 is not the kind of behavior that probably most people 341 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:27.759 have had ever experienced before and so again it was 342 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:33.599 this touching of of of people outside of the spectrum 343 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:38.559 the crime or the moment brought them in and and 344 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.119 made them perpetrators, made them part of it. I thought 345 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:46.200 that was really quite interesting and and you know, and 346 00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:49.759 it's just amazing. This was written by a reporter for 347 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:55.279 the Saint Petersburg Times with Phanta time by Times Ben Montgomery, 348 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:59.799 and it goes to show people say these days also 349 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:04.640 that newspaper work is dying, and newspapers are dying, and 350 00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:08.880 long stories everything is dumb down. But here we have 351 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.400 a story that's almost ten thousand words, that it's being 352 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.839 told by all kinds of different points of viewing perspectives. 353 00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:19.559 And he was able to dig deeply and talk to 354 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:24.440 lots of folks and kind of recreate all of the 355 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.440 events behind the scene that so many people have forgotten. 356 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.720 Absolutely. And the thing is the creative nonfiction that you're 357 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:38.480 talking about too. Less people not understand. There's nothing dialogue 358 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:42.759 created or composite characters or anything like that. It's just 359 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.440 like the very best true crime is written with a 360 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.799 lot of creative nonfiction devices as well. 361 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:53.880 Well. So again, go ahead, the best piece of true crime, 362 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:57.000 the literary true crime. The great model, of course, is 363 00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:01.519 in Cold Blood by Truman Campodi. No one has ever 364 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:06.799 said even so they people have questioned his research, no 365 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:11.480 one has really questioned the information that he provided. The 366 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.519 creative part was the fact that he was able to 367 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:20.200 take this and structurally and turn it into a riveting 368 00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:24.240 murder story from beginning to end. And he was able 369 00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:30.480 to interview people deeply enough so that and he conducted 370 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.920 four hundred interviews over a period of a half dozen years, 371 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:40.279 so he was able to recreate validly and vividly exactly 372 00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.480 what occurred in the events leading up to the crime, 373 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.160 during the crime, and the events after the crime, and 374 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:50.440 so and that's what creative nonfiction writers do. We we 375 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:56.559 researched intensely for long periods of time so that our 376 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.160 facts remain accurate, but so that we can really and 377 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.880 stories that are incredibly vivid and filled with the tales 378 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.960 and filled with nuances that that newspaper reporters who report 379 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:14.000 crime often don't have the time to do. There there's 380 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:19.759 there's another long story uh in this book about the 381 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:25.720 uh Gabby Giffords uh murder or or attempted murder as well. 382 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:31.400 And it's also written by a uh By, a reporter 383 00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:36.319 for the Arizona Republic. And this is even longer than 384 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:41.920 than than the story that then Montgomery put together. And 385 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:52.160 he uh traces back from the beginning of the robo calls, 386 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.279 when Gabby Gifford was giving a speech and was calling 387 00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:02.960 people together. He Sean Kinnon traces back from the beginning 388 00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:07.039 many of the people who received robot calls, robo calls 389 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.359 inviting them to this shopping area where she would be 390 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:17.119 giving a talk. And he interviews these people and talks 391 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.759 about how they got the call, why they decided to 392 00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:24.400 go to the shopping center, and what happened to them 393 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:29.759 when the bullets started to pop and when the people 394 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.640 started to fall. And not only does he talk about 395 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.680 many of the people, give us a really inside look 396 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:39.759 at many of the people who just came to hear 397 00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:43.799 her talk because they admired her. But we learn about 398 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:52.000 the shooter early on, actually twenty four hours before the 399 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.240 event occurs. And we learn where he goes, where he 400 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.559 tries to buy ammunition for his gun, how he got 401 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.319