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Every 25 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.480 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:30.760 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 27 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:35.560 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 28 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:47.400 Based off Hannah McGuire and Sirruthie VALA's popular podcast of 29 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:51.200 the same name, Red Handed, explores real life true crime 30 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.799 cases to help answer, once and for all, if a 31 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:58.040 killer is born or made. After meeting at a house 32 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:01.319 party in London, where they discuss a mutual obsession for 33 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:05.239 all things true crime, so Ruthie Bala and Hannah McGuire 34 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.719 drunkenly promised to one day start their own murder podcast. 35 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:13.759 Six weeks later, they order their first microphones, and the 36 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:18.039 rest is history. From the hosts of the hit podcasts 37 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:21.479 Red Handed, dubbed by Anna Paquin as their all time 38 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:25.879 favorite true crime podcast, Bala and McGuire have amassed a 39 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:30.759 cult following of spooky bitches. What is it about killers, 40 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:34.360 cults and cannibals that capture our imagination even as they 41 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:38.039 terrify and disturb us? Do we find these stories endlessly 42 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:41.120 and equally compelling and frightening? Because they hold up a 43 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.159 mirror to society's failings and to the horrors that we 44 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:49.280 humans are capable of. Red Handed rejects the outdated narrative 45 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:53.639 killers of killers as monsters and that a victim was 46 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:56.680 just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Instead, 47 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:58.919 it dissects the stories of killers in a way that 48 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:05.719 challenges perceptions and ask the hard questions about society, gender, poverty, culture, 49 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:11.360 and even our politics. With their trademark humor, research on 50 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.240 real life cases and unflinching analysis of what makes a criminal, 51 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.439 Bala and McGuire take you through what drives the most 52 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:21.560 extreme of human behavior. Find out once and for all 53 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.960 what makes a killer tick. The book that we're featuring 54 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:30.240 this evening is Red Handed, an exploration of criminals, cannibals, 55 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.639 cults and what makes a killer tick with my special 56 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:38.479 guest podcasters and authors, Sir Ruthie Bala and Hannah McGuire. 57 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:42.280 Thank you very much for this interview and welcome to 58 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:47.199 the program. Tarruthi Bala and Hannah McGuire, Thank you. 59 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:48.120 For having us done. 60 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:48.840 Thank you. 61 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:50.479 We're super excited to be here. 62 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:51.759 Thank you so much. 63 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:57.400 Before we start, for my audience, i'd tell us a 64 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:01.000 little bit about your award winning and and hit podcast 65 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:02.960 Red Handed, and how you. 66 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:05.680 Started your podcast. 67 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:11.439 We actually so it's difficult to keep track of this 68 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.080 number because we just sort of have lived, eaten, and 69 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.040 breathed the podcast for the past half many years. But 70 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:19.920 we are pretty sure that about four years ago, four 71 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:23.240 and a half years ago, we didn't know each other 72 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:26.839 at all, and we just happened to meet at a party. 73 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.680 And I think in the States, podcasting is about five 74 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:32.199 years ahead of where we are in the UK. 75 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:34.519 So back then, finding anyone who. 76 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:37.079 Listened to podcasts full stop was a revelation, like let 77 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:41.519 alone bumping into Surru at this party, and we listened 78 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:43.759 to all of the same murder podcasts and had all 79 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.279 of the same interests in all the same theories. 80 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:47.360 About the same thing. 81 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:50.079 So it felt like this incredible moment of like, oh wow, 82 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:51.319 this is something really special. 83 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:54.639 And then we sort of half jokingly. 84 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:58.519 Decided to start a true crime podcast because we thought 85 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:03.120 that women's voices were yet to be heard, not in 86 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:05.720 their entirety, that's the wrong way of saying it, but 87 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:07.199 we felt like we had something to. 88 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:10.639 Offer, We felt like we had something to add, so. 89 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:16.160 We decided that we would start the show and then 90 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:20.279 against the odds, we did and here we are four 91 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:21.319 years later with. 92 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.399 An award and a book. So do what you say 93 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:26.680 when you're drunk is the answer to the. 94 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:29.839 Question right now. 95 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:35.759 Can you tell us about the book itself in terms 96 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.199 of the contents. 97 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:40.680 Yes, absolutely so. 98 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:44.199 The book really was as as Hannah said, we've been 99 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.519 doing this for four years now, and we realized when 100 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:50.079 we went into COVID Lockdown that we weren't going to 101 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:51.839 be able to do any of the live shows or 102 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:53.680 anything that we had been hoping. 103 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:55.279 To be able to do. So it felt like the 104 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:56.240 right time to. 105 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:59.800 Think about putting down all of the stuff that we 106 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:03.600 had learnt over the course of four years into this book, 107 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:07.000 and it really has become this culmination of everything that 108 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.040 Hannah and I have learned over the past few years, 109 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:11.120 because I think one of the great things about true 110 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.319 crime books, obviously, is when you read them by an 111 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.519 investigative journalist or a former detective, they have one case 112 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.319 that they're so passionate about that they know inside out 113 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:22.399 better than anybody. And that's not really what we do 114 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:25.000 on Red Handed. Every single week we talk about a 115 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.639 different case because that's what fascinates us, and Hannah and 116 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.439 I are very much armchair detectives. We're not experts in this. 117 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:35.079 We're not investigative journalists, we're not detectives. We are just 118 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:38.040 two lay people who happen to have an interest in 119 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:41.920 true crime, and we like to think, are eternally curious 120 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.480 and ask lots of questions. And so the book, really, 121 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:48.560 what we wanted it to be about wasn't one specific case. 122 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:50.560 We knew that that wasn't the right fit for us. 123 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.439 What we wanted it to be was an exploration of 124 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:57.680 the key question that always comes up any dinner party. 125 00:06:57.759 --> 00:06:59.839 I go to anyone who finds out what job I do, 126 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.360 question they ask is why do they do what they do? 127 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:04.680 That's at the heart of every case that we do. 128 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:08.480 So we thought, let us explore this in an entire book. 129 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:10.279 And I think one of the key things that we 130 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:13.639 realized as soon as we started brainstorming that was that 131 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:17.439 often people call killers monsters or this, that and the other. 132 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:19.839 And we don't really like that term, not out of 133 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:24.399 some sort of misplaced sympathy or empathy for these killers necessarily, 134 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:28.759 but the idea that otherizing them, calling them monsters makes 135 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:31.680 it the easiest way possible for us to distance ourselves 136 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:36.199 from that behavior. Behavior that is very human, and usually 137 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:39.279 what leads a person to become a killer is something 138 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:41.800 very human. So we sat down and we wrote down 139 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:44.000 sort of as many topics as we could think were 140 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:46.639 many factors that we could think that influence a person 141 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.360 from maybe being a quote unquote normal person to being 142 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:53.000 on the path to murder, and the eight that we 143 00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:01.279 came up with were very much genetics, childhood, insanity, misogyny, cults, relationship, bigotry, 144 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.079 and sex and those things, as you can see, are 145 00:08:05.319 --> 00:08:08.079 things that are very human. They make us all who 146 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:11.079 we are. And so it was the perversion of those 147 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.680 things and the way they become twisted in the life 148 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.279 and influence of a killer is what we want to 149 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:20.240 explore chapter by chapter, and that's basically what the book 150 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:23.120 is is every single chapter is an exploration of a different, 151 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:27.399 very human factor, using various different killers as case studies 152 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.519 and all of the most relevant and research and recent 153 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.320 research that we could dig up to try and address 154 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:35.720 each of those factors separately and answer that question of 155 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:36.679 what makes a killer tick. 156 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:43.840 You explore nature virtus nurture, that ongoing debate in your 157 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.120 first chapter with called genetics, but you also talk you 158 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:52.039 cite examples to discuss and one of those is The 159 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:57.519 Brunners Boys and Bundy's pcl R tell us a little 160 00:08:57.519 --> 00:08:59.720 bit about some of the things that you discuss in. 161 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:02.480 And the Browners Boys. 162 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:06.480 Well, actually, in the writing of that chapter we had 163 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:10.080 to do quite a lot of confronting of what we 164 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:14.600 thought we knew but had wrong. Right, So, as you're 165 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:17.320 working in the true crime space, the warrior gene comes 166 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:19.519 up a lot when you're talking about psychopathy, when you're 167 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:24.200 talking about their congenital violence. Right, that a person can 168 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:30.039 inherit a likelihood to violence, and the warrior gene has 169 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.759 gone to and from in lots. 170 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.159 Of different arguments by lots of different people, but. 171 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:40.639 It's generally accepted now to not be an effect at all, 172 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:44.600 not at all. But it's not this miracle like violence 173 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:46.840 gene that people think it is, or it has been 174 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:51.440 like perceived to be. It just doesn't have that as 175 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:55.159 much sway as it seems like in the press. It's 176 00:09:55.159 --> 00:09:56.919 a good headline and doctor Phil had a great time 177 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:00.279 on his episode. But and we have previously done a 178 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:02.639 lot of stuff on the warrior gene and we had 179 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:06.080 to take that part and look at it in another way. 180 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:12.600 So psychopathy is now accepted to be more genetic than 181 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:14.840 other personality disorders. 182 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:14.879 But you. 183 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.679 Can't attribute it to a singular gene. It's just reductive. 184 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:21.480 Right. 185 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.799 You feature a case a killer Bradley Wardrobe knew you 186 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:33.320 titled it Born to Kill. What did you see with 187 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:38.200 this case that ended up being decided as a voluntary manslaughter? 188 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.759 Can you describe a little bit about this case and 189 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.440 why people might think that that was a irresponsible sentence? 190 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.399 I would think absolutely, and not to give the game 191 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:53.080 away immediately, but I absolutely agree that I think it 192 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:55.919 was an irresponsible sentence that was given. 193 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:57.799 I think Bradley Waldrop's case. 194 00:10:58.039 --> 00:10:59.799 When we wrote this chapter, we were on the hunt 195 00:10:59.799 --> 00:11:02.840 for case that would really highlight the point that we 196 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:05.120 were trying to make so clearly, and I think that 197 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.200 you would be hard pressed to find one more so 198 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.639 than this so very quick summation of it. In October 199 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:15.200 two thousand and six, a man named Bradley Waldrop. He 200 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:17.679 was separated from his wife. They had children together. I 201 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.759 believe they had four children. His wife's name is Penny, 202 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:25.080 and they you know, he was a very violent man. 203 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:28.799 By all accounts according to Penny, Penny didn't want to 204 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:31.080 go see him, but she had to to hand the 205 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.240 children over for a weekend, so she takes her friend 206 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:38.840 with her. While they're there, Bradley actually kills her friend, Leslie, 207 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:43.120 and severely. I was going to say injures that sounds 208 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:45.879 far too softer term for what he did. 209 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:47.279 He stabs her multiple times. 210 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:51.159 It's a horrendous attack, and he is fully intending to 211 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:53.720 kill her through the behavior. For example, he tells the 212 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:56.679 children to come in one by one to say goodbye 213 00:11:56.679 --> 00:11:58.679 to their mother. I mean, if that is not an 214 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:00.919 admission of what he's planning to do, and the fact 215 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:03.360 that he was very much in control of what he 216 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:05.080 was doing. I think that's a key thing, is that 217 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:07.519 it's not a frenzied attack where he snaps and he 218 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.000 killed Penny. He's a prolonged attack that goes on for 219 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.000 a while, and he's sadistic enough to be able to 220 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:15.559 bring the children into state to say goodbye to their mother, 221 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.559 so he's obviously calm enough at points. What happens then 222 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.840 is thankfully the police turn up and Penny is saved 223 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:30.039 from this situation, goes to trial, and you know, as 224 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:34.080 is their prerogative the defense. His defense attorney has a 225 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:37.200 brain wave and says, okay, let's get Bradley Waldrob tested 226 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:41.240 for you know this this Brunner's syndrome to check if 227 00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:44.799 he's got the quote unquote warrior gene, sorry not bruner syndrome. 228 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:47.279 To check if he's got the warrior gene, which would 229 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:50.039 be that he carries a specific variant of the m 230 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:54.200 ao al maoa gene. So they do this test and 231 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:57.120 they find out, surprise surprise, that he's got the warrior 232 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:00.799 gene quote unquote, which is just one particular variant of 233 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:05.399 this m aoa gene, and they use that in court 234 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:10.360 and Bradley wardrobe is given instead of what it should 235 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:14.799 have been, which is first degree murder and first degree 236 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:16.879 attempted attempted murder. 237 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:17.639 Absolutely of his wife. 238 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.200 It was reduced to manslaughter, which is completely unbelievable because, 239 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:24.639 like we said, their argument was that he had the 240 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:27.600 warrior gene. People with the warrior gene in all of 241 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:33.080 the studies that support it say that it increases a 242 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:36.519 person's sort of response to snapping and they lose all 243 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:40.759 control and they can't stop themselves, and it's a fear response. 244 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:44.080 Bradley Waldrop clearly didn't have that kind of response because 245 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:46.320 it was a prolonged attack that went on and it 246 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:48.639 had sadistic elements that he was. 247 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:49.559 Clearly in control of. 248 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.320 And then when the jurors were interviewed afterwards by MPR, 249 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:57.879 they told him, They told them, well, a bad genes, 250 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:02.879 a bad gene, and the absolute dystopian nightmare that that 251 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.879 is the idea that we could just excuse this kind 252 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:08.600 of behavior and say work. You know, Bradley Waldrop couldn't 253 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:12.279 help it. He had this defective gene that made him 254 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.480 unable to not kill his wife's best friend and try 255 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:19.000 and kill his wife. I think that is completely irresponsible 256 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:22.080 and it's absolutely terrifying. And I think the more we 257 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:26.519 give things like a singular gene the power to have 258 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:29.960 this level of control over person's behavior is a very 259 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.399 dangerous thing, and I think it's going to lead to 260 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.080 more and more irresponsible sentences like this. 261 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:45.480 Unfortunately, let's talk about childhood and adolescents and mummy issues, 262 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:50.279 and you talk morbid nights and murder prodigies. Just tell 263 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:57.039 us what you have found in this chapter to your research. 264 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:04.200 Well, I suppose the one of a theme that comes 265 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:08.799 back through and through the book, but particularly in chapter two, 266 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:13.759 which is Childhood and Adolescents, is abuse in childhood can 267 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:14.639 lead to. 268 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:16.919 That. 269 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:19.799 I mean, first and foremost, there are many, many people 270 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.039 who have abusive childhoods who never go on to do 271 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:26.720 anything wrong and don't kill anyone. However, in cases of 272 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:30.960 serial killers, it's important to look in the childhood and 273 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:35.039 quite often you will find quite severe abuse. So it's 274 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:38.360 another step on the journey where for some people it 275 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:42.240 can turn them to murder and for some people it can't, 276 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:44.240 and we need to examine it from every angle. 277 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:52.399 You use an example of Jurgen Barsh What did you 278 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.240 Why did you feature this case? 279 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:57.519 What did it demonstrate? 280 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.399 Yeah, I mean there were so many cases is that 281 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:05.000 we could have chosen to explore this. It's hardly a 282 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:06.840 rarity and it won't be a surprised to anybody of 283 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.879 course that if you look into the past lives of 284 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.039 many serial killers, you are of course going to find 285 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:15.720 a childhood that is riddled with abuse in many cases, 286 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:19.600 not in all cases, which is the interesting thing. So 287 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.240 we really did have a lot of cases to pick from, 288 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:24.480 but we chose Jergenbarts firstly because I don't think he's 289 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:28.440 as well known as serial killer as some of the others. 290 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.360 And also because he had certain elements to him that 291 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:34.919 allowed us to explore various different factors. For example, this 292 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:38.720 idea of that very very early stage bonding between a 293 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:43.000 baby and a primary caregiver. So how once the baby 294 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.279 is born, there is only so much time, only so 295 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.799 many weeks, so many days, so many months for certain 296 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.159 things to happen, and bonding is one of those things. 297 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.360 Developing attachment is one of those things. And the really 298 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:59.080 tragic thing is that if those milestones are not met 299 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:04.240 during the windows of opportunity in that baby's life, sadly 300 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:07.279 those windows close and they may not be able to 301 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:10.119 ever be rectified later in life. An attachment is one 302 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.759 of those things. And Jergenbart's being born into an orphanage, 303 00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.200 being born and then his mother passing away immediately and 304 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.880 growing up in an orphanage for the first year. Although 305 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.559 he's adopted very quickly as a baby, the fact that 306 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:24.599 he was only fed and sheltered in that year but 307 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:27.160 not given the love and the attachment that he needed. 308 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:30.079 What impact did that have? And it really allowed us 309 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.000 to go and explore some of the things that we've 310 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:35.640 seen the horrific documentaries out there on things like the 311 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:39.240 Romanian orphanages, the slaughter houses of the soulars they're called, 312 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:41.880 And what we wanted to do here was explore the 313 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:46.279 idea of firstly the impact that childhood has on the 314 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.680 development of somebody who might go on to become violent 315 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:53.039 or become a killer. But also another point we wanted 316 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.680 to explore was which comes first. Is it that a 317 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.720 child is born with problematic behavior which makes it harder 318 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:01.119 for a parent to bond with them, or is it 319 00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.480 the parents lack of bonding with the child that creates 320 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:05.920 the problematic behavior, And that was another thing that we 321 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:10.000 wanted to explore. But really the crux of this entire 322 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.960 chapter was what type of abuse can lead to what 323 00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:16.720 type of killer? 324 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:17.640 And why? 325 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.799 What is the link between abuse and future offending, and 326 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:24.559 why not everybody who was abused go goes on to 327 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:24.839 do that. 328 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:31.240 Your next chapter you discuss insanity and its rule as 329 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:38.160 a factor in this murder. But you have a a 330 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.319 description here that I'll let you. 331 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.400 Pronounce because I don't think I'll be able to do it. 332 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:45.960 Just so. 333 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:47.839 We had fun with this in the audio book as well. 334 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:48.359 They worry. 335 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.519 Yes, So describe this as you do, pronounce this as 336 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.640 you do in its relation and some of the just 337 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.400 a couple of the people, well known people that you 338 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.119 discuss in this chapter insanity. 339 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:11.240 Okay, I think the word is it's the demon one, 340 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:11.799 isn't it true? 341 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:12.640 Yeah? 342 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:13.039 Yeah? 343 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:15.720 Co well no. 344 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.759 Co cockademia. I feel like, you know, once you just 345 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:21.519 start to say a word in your head. 346 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:25.599 And no one's correcting you, it's very hard to know 347 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:27.119 if I'm actually saying it right. 348 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:32.400 But let's go essentiallyma, Yeah, it is the very real 349 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:35.599 belief in a person that they are possessed by demons. 350 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:40.839 And in the case of Andrea Yates, which is one 351 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.720 of the two cases we discussed in the insanity chapter, 352 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:48.039 she truly truly believed that she was not only possessed 353 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:53.799 by a demon, but the devil. And in the true 354 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:56.519 crime space, I think a lot of people will look 355 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.599 at the insanity defense as kind of an easy way out. 356 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.920 That's actually the opposite, and we explore that in chapter three, 357 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:07.720 the insanity chapter by comparing the cases of Andrea Yates 358 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:12.319 and Susan Smith. Both of them killed their children, and 359 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:16.000 both of them went to trial. Both of them used 360 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:20.839 the insanity defense, and one of them is in a 361 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:24.160 psychiatric hospital where she will probably never get out, and 362 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:25.960 one of them went to prison where she has a 363 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:31.039 release date. And so the story is Andrea Yates was 364 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:34.799 when you look at insanity, when to prove someone is insane, 365 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:37.960 it's a very difficult thing to do, and depending on 366 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:41.079 which state you are in, and these are both American cases, 367 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:44.480 so we have to go through the American justice system, which, 368 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.319 as I'm sure you are perfectly aware done, is extremely 369 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.759 different from state to state, and particularly with the insanity defense, 370 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:56.839 there are one of two that states will use. But 371 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:58.559 the main thing you need to be able to prove 372 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.039 is that the person genuinely believed that what they were 373 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.480 doing was right, like their moral compass was completely switched. 374 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.680 And in the case of Andrew Yates, it's pretty commonly 375 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.960 accepted that she truly believed because of all of the 376 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.079 trauma she had gone through, because she had postpartum psychosis, 377 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.759 not depression psychosis, it's completely different, and she had been 378 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:24.000 she'd gone through this psychosis time after time because her 379 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:28.599 and her husband were told multiple times not to have children, 380 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:33.039 but that they continued to at sort of her husband's behest, 381 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:38.839 and she really believed, because of this long build up 382 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:44.319 of trauma and abuse, that she was the worst thing 383 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:46.559 that could possibly have happened to her children, and the 384 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:48.960 only way to stop them from going to hell forever 385 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.680 was to kill them. And she truly believed that. And 386 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.240 we counteract that. So Andrea Yates is now in a 387 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:58.519 psychiatric hospital. She may never get out because it's very 388 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:01.759 difficult once you go in to prove that you are better, 389 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:07.000 and there's multiple experiments about that, and then when you 390 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.039 compare it to Susan Smith, who also killed her children, 391 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:15.480 but it's an entirely different situation, and it was very 392 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:18.359 difficult to make a case that she was in the 393 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:22.359 legal sense insane because legal is. 394 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.000 A cultural term. It doesn't mean like insane. 395 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:27.680 As the cultural term, it doesn't mean anything medically, so 396 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:30.400 it's a very difficult crossover. So what we wanted to 397 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:35.759 do with this chapter was show just how difficult a 398 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:41.519 proving not guilty by reason of insanity is and also 399 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:43.279 that it really is not an easy way out. 400 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:45.400 In some ways, it's a lot worse than a prison sentence. 401 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.400