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Speaker 3: eighty plus.
Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them, Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Based off Hannah McGuire and Sirruthie VALA's popular podcast of
Speaker 6: the same name, Red Handed, explores real life true crime
Speaker 6: cases to help answer, once and for all, if a
Speaker 6: killer is born or made. After meeting at a house
Speaker 6: party in London, where they discuss a mutual obsession for
Speaker 6: all things true crime, so Ruthie Bala and Hannah McGuire
Speaker 6: drunkenly promised to one day start their own murder podcast.
Speaker 6: Six weeks later, they order their first microphones, and the
Speaker 6: rest is history. From the hosts of the hit podcasts
Speaker 6: Red Handed, dubbed by Anna Paquin as their all time
Speaker 6: favorite true crime podcast, Bala and McGuire have amassed a
Speaker 6: cult following of spooky bitches. What is it about killers,
Speaker 6: cults and cannibals that capture our imagination even as they
Speaker 6: terrify and disturb us? Do we find these stories endlessly
Speaker 6: and equally compelling and frightening? Because they hold up a
Speaker 6: mirror to society's failings and to the horrors that we
Speaker 6: humans are capable of. Red Handed rejects the outdated narrative
Speaker 6: killers of killers as monsters and that a victim was
Speaker 6: just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Instead,
Speaker 6: it dissects the stories of killers in a way that
Speaker 6: challenges perceptions and ask the hard questions about society, gender, poverty, culture,
Speaker 6: and even our politics. With their trademark humor, research on
Speaker 6: real life cases and unflinching analysis of what makes a criminal,
Speaker 6: Bala and McGuire take you through what drives the most
Speaker 6: extreme of human behavior. Find out once and for all
Speaker 6: what makes a killer tick. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 6: this evening is Red Handed, an exploration of criminals, cannibals,
Speaker 6: cults and what makes a killer tick with my special
Speaker 6: guest podcasters and authors, Sir Ruthie Bala and Hannah McGuire.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for this interview and welcome to
Speaker 6: the program. Tarruthi Bala and Hannah McGuire, Thank you.
Speaker 7: For having us done.
Speaker 8: Thank you.
Speaker 9: We're super excited to be here.
Speaker 8: Thank you so much.
Speaker 6: Before we start, for my audience, i'd tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about your award winning and and hit podcast
Speaker 6: Red Handed, and how you.
Speaker 8: Started your podcast.
Speaker 2: We actually so it's difficult to keep track of this
Speaker 2: number because we just sort of have lived, eaten, and
Speaker 2: breathed the podcast for the past half many years. But
Speaker 2: we are pretty sure that about four years ago, four
Speaker 2: and a half years ago, we didn't know each other
Speaker 2: at all, and we just happened to meet at a party.
Speaker 2: And I think in the States, podcasting is about five
Speaker 2: years ahead of where we are in the UK.
Speaker 9: So back then, finding anyone who.
Speaker 2: Listened to podcasts full stop was a revelation, like let
Speaker 2: alone bumping into Surru at this party, and we listened
Speaker 2: to all of the same murder podcasts and had all
Speaker 2: of the same interests in all the same theories.
Speaker 9: About the same thing.
Speaker 2: So it felt like this incredible moment of like, oh wow,
Speaker 2: this is something really special.
Speaker 9: And then we sort of half jokingly.
Speaker 2: Decided to start a true crime podcast because we thought
Speaker 2: that women's voices were yet to be heard, not in
Speaker 2: their entirety, that's the wrong way of saying it, but
Speaker 2: we felt like we had something to.
Speaker 9: Offer, We felt like we had something to add, so.
Speaker 2: We decided that we would start the show and then
Speaker 2: against the odds, we did and here we are four
Speaker 2: years later with.
Speaker 9: An award and a book. So do what you say
Speaker 9: when you're drunk is the answer to the.
Speaker 8: Question right now.
Speaker 6: Can you tell us about the book itself in terms
Speaker 6: of the contents.
Speaker 7: Yes, absolutely so.
Speaker 10: The book really was as as Hannah said, we've been
Speaker 10: doing this for four years now, and we realized when
Speaker 10: we went into COVID Lockdown that we weren't going to
Speaker 10: be able to do any of the live shows or
Speaker 10: anything that we had been hoping.
Speaker 7: To be able to do. So it felt like the
Speaker 7: right time to.
Speaker 10: Think about putting down all of the stuff that we
Speaker 10: had learnt over the course of four years into this book,
Speaker 10: and it really has become this culmination of everything that
Speaker 10: Hannah and I have learned over the past few years,
Speaker 10: because I think one of the great things about true
Speaker 10: crime books, obviously, is when you read them by an
Speaker 10: investigative journalist or a former detective, they have one case
Speaker 10: that they're so passionate about that they know inside out
Speaker 10: better than anybody. And that's not really what we do
Speaker 10: on Red Handed. Every single week we talk about a
Speaker 10: different case because that's what fascinates us, and Hannah and
Speaker 10: I are very much armchair detectives. We're not experts in this.
Speaker 10: We're not investigative journalists, we're not detectives. We are just
Speaker 10: two lay people who happen to have an interest in
Speaker 10: true crime, and we like to think, are eternally curious
Speaker 10: and ask lots of questions. And so the book, really,
Speaker 10: what we wanted it to be about wasn't one specific case.
Speaker 10: We knew that that wasn't the right fit for us.
Speaker 10: What we wanted it to be was an exploration of
Speaker 10: the key question that always comes up any dinner party.
Speaker 10: I go to anyone who finds out what job I do,
Speaker 10: question they ask is why do they do what they do?
Speaker 10: That's at the heart of every case that we do.
Speaker 10: So we thought, let us explore this in an entire book.
Speaker 10: And I think one of the key things that we
Speaker 10: realized as soon as we started brainstorming that was that
Speaker 10: often people call killers monsters or this, that and the other.
Speaker 10: And we don't really like that term, not out of
Speaker 10: some sort of misplaced sympathy or empathy for these killers necessarily,
Speaker 10: but the idea that otherizing them, calling them monsters makes
Speaker 10: it the easiest way possible for us to distance ourselves
Speaker 10: from that behavior. Behavior that is very human, and usually
Speaker 10: what leads a person to become a killer is something
Speaker 10: very human. So we sat down and we wrote down
Speaker 10: sort of as many topics as we could think were
Speaker 10: many factors that we could think that influence a person
Speaker 10: from maybe being a quote unquote normal person to being
Speaker 10: on the path to murder, and the eight that we
Speaker 10: came up with were very much genetics, childhood, insanity, misogyny, cults, relationship, bigotry,
Speaker 10: and sex and those things, as you can see, are
Speaker 10: things that are very human. They make us all who
Speaker 10: we are. And so it was the perversion of those
Speaker 10: things and the way they become twisted in the life
Speaker 10: and influence of a killer is what we want to
Speaker 10: explore chapter by chapter, and that's basically what the book
Speaker 10: is is every single chapter is an exploration of a different,
Speaker 10: very human factor, using various different killers as case studies
Speaker 10: and all of the most relevant and research and recent
Speaker 10: research that we could dig up to try and address
Speaker 10: each of those factors separately and answer that question of
Speaker 10: what makes a killer tick.
Speaker 6: You explore nature virtus nurture, that ongoing debate in your
Speaker 6: first chapter with called genetics, but you also talk you
Speaker 6: cite examples to discuss and one of those is The
Speaker 6: Brunners Boys and Bundy's pcl R tell us a little
Speaker 6: bit about some of the things that you discuss in.
Speaker 8: And the Browners Boys.
Speaker 2: Well, actually, in the writing of that chapter we had
Speaker 2: to do quite a lot of confronting of what we
Speaker 2: thought we knew but had wrong. Right, So, as you're
Speaker 2: working in the true crime space, the warrior gene comes
Speaker 2: up a lot when you're talking about psychopathy, when you're
Speaker 2: talking about their congenital violence. Right, that a person can
Speaker 2: inherit a likelihood to violence, and the warrior gene has
Speaker 2: gone to and from in lots.
Speaker 9: Of different arguments by lots of different people, but.
Speaker 2: It's generally accepted now to not be an effect at all,
Speaker 2: not at all. But it's not this miracle like violence
Speaker 2: gene that people think it is, or it has been
Speaker 2: like perceived to be. It just doesn't have that as
Speaker 2: much sway as it seems like in the press. It's
Speaker 2: a good headline and doctor Phil had a great time
Speaker 2: on his episode. But and we have previously done a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff on the warrior gene and we had
Speaker 2: to take that part and look at it in another way.
Speaker 2: So psychopathy is now accepted to be more genetic than
Speaker 2: other personality disorders.
Speaker 8: But you.
Speaker 2: Can't attribute it to a singular gene. It's just reductive.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 6: You feature a case a killer Bradley Wardrobe knew you
Speaker 6: titled it Born to Kill. What did you see with
Speaker 6: this case that ended up being decided as a voluntary manslaughter?
Speaker 6: Can you describe a little bit about this case and
Speaker 6: why people might think that that was a irresponsible sentence?
Speaker 10: I would think absolutely, and not to give the game
Speaker 10: away immediately, but I absolutely agree that I think it
Speaker 10: was an irresponsible sentence that was given.
Speaker 7: I think Bradley Waldrop's case.
Speaker 10: When we wrote this chapter, we were on the hunt
Speaker 10: for case that would really highlight the point that we
Speaker 10: were trying to make so clearly, and I think that
Speaker 10: you would be hard pressed to find one more so
Speaker 10: than this so very quick summation of it. In October
Speaker 10: two thousand and six, a man named Bradley Waldrop. He
Speaker 10: was separated from his wife. They had children together. I
Speaker 10: believe they had four children. His wife's name is Penny,
Speaker 10: and they you know, he was a very violent man.
Speaker 10: By all accounts according to Penny, Penny didn't want to
Speaker 10: go see him, but she had to to hand the
Speaker 10: children over for a weekend, so she takes her friend
Speaker 10: with her. While they're there, Bradley actually kills her friend, Leslie,
Speaker 10: and severely. I was going to say injures that sounds
Speaker 10: far too softer term for what he did.
Speaker 7: He stabs her multiple times.
Speaker 10: It's a horrendous attack, and he is fully intending to
Speaker 10: kill her through the behavior. For example, he tells the
Speaker 10: children to come in one by one to say goodbye
Speaker 10: to their mother. I mean, if that is not an
Speaker 10: admission of what he's planning to do, and the fact
Speaker 10: that he was very much in control of what he
Speaker 10: was doing. I think that's a key thing, is that
Speaker 10: it's not a frenzied attack where he snaps and he
Speaker 10: killed Penny. He's a prolonged attack that goes on for
Speaker 10: a while, and he's sadistic enough to be able to
Speaker 10: bring the children into state to say goodbye to their mother,
Speaker 10: so he's obviously calm enough at points. What happens then
Speaker 10: is thankfully the police turn up and Penny is saved
Speaker 10: from this situation, goes to trial, and you know, as
Speaker 10: is their prerogative the defense. His defense attorney has a
Speaker 10: brain wave and says, okay, let's get Bradley Waldrob tested
Speaker 10: for you know this this Brunner's syndrome to check if
Speaker 10: he's got the quote unquote warrior gene, sorry not bruner syndrome.
Speaker 10: To check if he's got the warrior gene, which would
Speaker 10: be that he carries a specific variant of the m
Speaker 10: ao al maoa gene. So they do this test and
Speaker 10: they find out, surprise surprise, that he's got the warrior
Speaker 10: gene quote unquote, which is just one particular variant of
Speaker 10: this m aoa gene, and they use that in court
Speaker 10: and Bradley wardrobe is given instead of what it should
Speaker 10: have been, which is first degree murder and first degree
Speaker 10: attempted attempted murder.
Speaker 7: Absolutely of his wife.
Speaker 10: It was reduced to manslaughter, which is completely unbelievable because,
Speaker 10: like we said, their argument was that he had the
Speaker 10: warrior gene. People with the warrior gene in all of
Speaker 10: the studies that support it say that it increases a
Speaker 10: person's sort of response to snapping and they lose all
Speaker 10: control and they can't stop themselves, and it's a fear response.
Speaker 10: Bradley Waldrop clearly didn't have that kind of response because
Speaker 10: it was a prolonged attack that went on and it
Speaker 10: had sadistic elements that he was.
Speaker 7: Clearly in control of.
Speaker 10: And then when the jurors were interviewed afterwards by MPR,
Speaker 10: they told him, They told them, well, a bad genes,
Speaker 10: a bad gene, and the absolute dystopian nightmare that that
Speaker 10: is the idea that we could just excuse this kind
Speaker 10: of behavior and say work. You know, Bradley Waldrop couldn't
Speaker 10: help it. He had this defective gene that made him
Speaker 10: unable to not kill his wife's best friend and try
Speaker 10: and kill his wife. I think that is completely irresponsible
Speaker 10: and it's absolutely terrifying. And I think the more we
Speaker 10: give things like a singular gene the power to have
Speaker 10: this level of control over person's behavior is a very
Speaker 10: dangerous thing, and I think it's going to lead to
Speaker 10: more and more irresponsible sentences like this.
Speaker 6: Unfortunately, let's talk about childhood and adolescents and mummy issues,
Speaker 6: and you talk morbid nights and murder prodigies. Just tell
Speaker 6: us what you have found in this chapter to your research.
Speaker 11: Well, I suppose the one of a theme that comes
Speaker 11: back through and through the book, but particularly in chapter two,
Speaker 11: which is Childhood and Adolescents, is abuse in childhood can
Speaker 11: lead to.
Speaker 8: That.
Speaker 2: I mean, first and foremost, there are many, many people
Speaker 2: who have abusive childhoods who never go on to do
Speaker 2: anything wrong and don't kill anyone. However, in cases of
Speaker 2: serial killers, it's important to look in the childhood and
Speaker 2: quite often you will find quite severe abuse. So it's
Speaker 2: another step on the journey where for some people it
Speaker 2: can turn them to murder and for some people it can't,
Speaker 2: and we need to examine it from every angle.
Speaker 6: You use an example of Jurgen Barsh What did you
Speaker 6: Why did you feature this case?
Speaker 8: What did it demonstrate?
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean there were so many cases is that
Speaker 10: we could have chosen to explore this. It's hardly a
Speaker 10: rarity and it won't be a surprised to anybody of
Speaker 10: course that if you look into the past lives of
Speaker 10: many serial killers, you are of course going to find
Speaker 10: a childhood that is riddled with abuse in many cases,
Speaker 10: not in all cases, which is the interesting thing. So
Speaker 10: we really did have a lot of cases to pick from,
Speaker 10: but we chose Jergenbarts firstly because I don't think he's
Speaker 10: as well known as serial killer as some of the others.
Speaker 10: And also because he had certain elements to him that
Speaker 10: allowed us to explore various different factors. For example, this
Speaker 10: idea of that very very early stage bonding between a
Speaker 10: baby and a primary caregiver. So how once the baby
Speaker 10: is born, there is only so much time, only so
Speaker 10: many weeks, so many days, so many months for certain
Speaker 10: things to happen, and bonding is one of those things.
Speaker 10: Developing attachment is one of those things. And the really
Speaker 10: tragic thing is that if those milestones are not met
Speaker 10: during the windows of opportunity in that baby's life, sadly
Speaker 10: those windows close and they may not be able to
Speaker 10: ever be rectified later in life. An attachment is one
Speaker 10: of those things. And Jergenbart's being born into an orphanage,
Speaker 10: being born and then his mother passing away immediately and
Speaker 10: growing up in an orphanage for the first year. Although
Speaker 10: he's adopted very quickly as a baby, the fact that
Speaker 10: he was only fed and sheltered in that year but
Speaker 10: not given the love and the attachment that he needed.
Speaker 10: What impact did that have? And it really allowed us
Speaker 10: to go and explore some of the things that we've
Speaker 10: seen the horrific documentaries out there on things like the
Speaker 10: Romanian orphanages, the slaughter houses of the soulars they're called,
Speaker 10: And what we wanted to do here was explore the
Speaker 10: idea of firstly the impact that childhood has on the
Speaker 10: development of somebody who might go on to become violent
Speaker 10: or become a killer. But also another point we wanted
Speaker 10: to explore was which comes first. Is it that a
Speaker 10: child is born with problematic behavior which makes it harder
Speaker 10: for a parent to bond with them, or is it
Speaker 10: the parents lack of bonding with the child that creates
Speaker 10: the problematic behavior, And that was another thing that we
Speaker 10: wanted to explore. But really the crux of this entire
Speaker 10: chapter was what type of abuse can lead to what
Speaker 10: type of killer?
Speaker 7: And why?
Speaker 10: What is the link between abuse and future offending, and
Speaker 10: why not everybody who was abused go goes on to
Speaker 10: do that.
Speaker 6: Your next chapter you discuss insanity and its rule as
Speaker 6: a factor in this murder. But you have a a
Speaker 6: description here that I'll let you.
Speaker 8: Pronounce because I don't think I'll be able to do it.
Speaker 8: Just so.
Speaker 9: We had fun with this in the audio book as well.
Speaker 8: They worry.
Speaker 6: Yes, So describe this as you do, pronounce this as
Speaker 6: you do in its relation and some of the just
Speaker 6: a couple of the people, well known people that you
Speaker 6: discuss in this chapter insanity.
Speaker 2: Okay, I think the word is it's the demon one,
Speaker 2: isn't it true?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 9: Co well no.
Speaker 7: Co cockademia. I feel like, you know, once you just
Speaker 7: start to say a word in your head.
Speaker 10: And no one's correcting you, it's very hard to know
Speaker 10: if I'm actually saying it right.
Speaker 2: But let's go essentiallyma, Yeah, it is the very real
Speaker 2: belief in a person that they are possessed by demons.
Speaker 2: And in the case of Andrea Yates, which is one
Speaker 2: of the two cases we discussed in the insanity chapter,
Speaker 2: she truly truly believed that she was not only possessed
Speaker 2: by a demon, but the devil. And in the true
Speaker 2: crime space, I think a lot of people will look
Speaker 2: at the insanity defense as kind of an easy way out.
Speaker 2: That's actually the opposite, and we explore that in chapter three,
Speaker 2: the insanity chapter by comparing the cases of Andrea Yates
Speaker 2: and Susan Smith. Both of them killed their children, and
Speaker 2: both of them went to trial. Both of them used
Speaker 2: the insanity defense, and one of them is in a
Speaker 2: psychiatric hospital where she will probably never get out, and
Speaker 2: one of them went to prison where she has a
Speaker 2: release date. And so the story is Andrea Yates was
Speaker 2: when you look at insanity, when to prove someone is insane,
Speaker 2: it's a very difficult thing to do, and depending on
Speaker 2: which state you are in, and these are both American cases,
Speaker 2: so we have to go through the American justice system, which,
Speaker 2: as I'm sure you are perfectly aware done, is extremely
Speaker 2: different from state to state, and particularly with the insanity defense,
Speaker 2: there are one of two that states will use. But
Speaker 2: the main thing you need to be able to prove
Speaker 2: is that the person genuinely believed that what they were
Speaker 2: doing was right, like their moral compass was completely switched.
Speaker 2: And in the case of Andrew Yates, it's pretty commonly
Speaker 2: accepted that she truly believed because of all of the
Speaker 2: trauma she had gone through, because she had postpartum psychosis,
Speaker 2: not depression psychosis, it's completely different, and she had been
Speaker 2: she'd gone through this psychosis time after time because her
Speaker 2: and her husband were told multiple times not to have children,
Speaker 2: but that they continued to at sort of her husband's behest,
Speaker 2: and she really believed, because of this long build up
Speaker 2: of trauma and abuse, that she was the worst thing
Speaker 2: that could possibly have happened to her children, and the
Speaker 2: only way to stop them from going to hell forever
Speaker 2: was to kill them. And she truly believed that. And
Speaker 2: we counteract that. So Andrea Yates is now in a
Speaker 2: psychiatric hospital. She may never get out because it's very
Speaker 2: difficult once you go in to prove that you are better,
Speaker 2: and there's multiple experiments about that, and then when you
Speaker 2: compare it to Susan Smith, who also killed her children,
Speaker 2: but it's an entirely different situation, and it was very
Speaker 2: difficult to make a case that she was in the
Speaker 2: legal sense insane because legal is.
Speaker 9: A cultural term. It doesn't mean like insane.
Speaker 2: As the cultural term, it doesn't mean anything medically, so
Speaker 2: it's a very difficult crossover. So what we wanted to
Speaker 2: do with this chapter was show just how difficult a
Speaker 2: proving not guilty by reason of insanity is and also
Speaker 2: that it really is not an easy way out.
Speaker 9: In some ways, it's a lot worse than a prison sentence.
Speaker 6: We talk about the chapter Misogyny, Basement Virgins, Black Pills,
Speaker 6: and Blue balls and what misogyny has to do with
Speaker 6: all of this.
Speaker 10: Yes, this was a very interesting chapter. So Hannah and
Speaker 10: I for a long time actually have been very interested
Speaker 10: in the subculture known as in cells in particular, and
Speaker 10: there's no, there's absolutely not at all any case that
Speaker 10: misogyny is only affiliated with this particular violent group of offenders.
Speaker 10: It is one of the most common motivators that we
Speaker 10: find in the world of true crime. But in this
Speaker 10: chapter we particularly we explore the in cell movement, the manosphere,
Speaker 10: everything that's going on in that particularly seedy part of
Speaker 10: the Internet, and how it has in real terms in
Speaker 10: the last few years spilled over into real world violence.
Speaker 10: And I think the point that we were trying to
Speaker 10: make in this chapter was that in cell culture. While
Speaker 10: people want to laugh at in cells for being sort
Speaker 10: of as we've put basement virgins, and for anyone who
Speaker 10: does maybe isn't aware of in cell culture, it stands
Speaker 10: for involuntary celibate. So they are a group of predominantly
Speaker 10: men who feel very angry with women due to the
Speaker 10: fact that they are not and in sexual relationships. And
Speaker 10: they say that it's despite having tried. But as we
Speaker 10: have found out time and time again, they generally lack
Speaker 10: the social skills to be able to engage with women,
Speaker 10: and they feel a lot of rage because of that
Speaker 10: and the isolation. And if you go into the forums
Speaker 10: that they use, there is a lot of radicalization going
Speaker 10: on in there. There's no two ways about that. And
Speaker 10: while absolutely yes, loneliness and social anxiety and these kind
Speaker 10: of things are incredibly sad, and you know, they absolutely
Speaker 10: need help and support, the problem is is that the
Speaker 10: way that they express that rage is through violent misogyny
Speaker 10: and a hatred of women. And as we said, in
Speaker 10: these forums, there is absolutely radicalization going on. They have
Speaker 10: conversations about mass rate, about murder, about killing women, and
Speaker 10: they don't even refer to them as women, refer to
Speaker 10: women as.
Speaker 7: Femoids, to be female humanoid.
Speaker 10: So they really really fundamentally believe that women are a
Speaker 10: s class, not almost non human, and so of course
Speaker 10: then it becomes much easier for them to go out
Speaker 10: there and commit acts of violent misogyny. And the key
Speaker 10: case that we focus on here is, of course, the
Speaker 10: shootings that occurred in Ela Vista, committed by a man
Speaker 10: named Elliott Roger who was at university there, and he
Speaker 10: wrote an entire manifesto about his rage. He went out
Speaker 10: and he shot a lot of people. He predominantly wanted
Speaker 10: to go after women, go to sororities, kill the type
Speaker 10: of women he felt like he was unable to have.
Speaker 10: And when you read his manifesto, it is filled with,
Speaker 10: of course misogyny. And I think the thing that we
Speaker 10: really wanted to make clear in this chapters. While these
Speaker 10: men are of course outliers in the behavior that they're
Speaker 10: engaging in the thought process is that they have why
Speaker 10: are we not talking about this as if they are terrorists?
Speaker 10: Because they themselves say in their interviews, on their forums
Speaker 10: and their manifestos that they are doing it out of
Speaker 10: a politically motivated aim. They are doing it because they
Speaker 10: think that their in seldom is an apartheid issue, and
Speaker 10: that is there are quotes that we have taken from
Speaker 10: their own literature.
Speaker 7: There is a lot of that literature.
Speaker 10: And yeah, if you're a committing acts of violence thinking
Speaker 10: it's because it's a social issue and apartheid issue, an
Speaker 10: issue of your oppression as a marginalized group, as they
Speaker 10: like to say, they're calling it a political issue and
Speaker 10: they go out and kill women because of it. It
Speaker 10: feels like a terrorist act and we would like for
Speaker 10: it to be acknowledged as such. And yeah, it's one
Speaker 10: of those things that we also talk about in here.
Speaker 10: Why misogyny is such an easy route to radicalization for
Speaker 10: many young men who may be angry today, And it
Speaker 10: feels like it was because you don't need to go
Speaker 10: and sort of learn a whole new religion maybe, or
Speaker 10: read a lot of scripture, or change your lifestyle or
Speaker 10: change your habits. It's just believing something that already exists
Speaker 10: at every strata of our society to some extent. And
Speaker 10: we make the argument that that's possibly why, because it
Speaker 10: is so commonplace that we're reluctant as a society to
Speaker 10: look at it as a terrorist act, and why it's
Speaker 10: so easy for people to get radicalized into this group,
Speaker 10: and why these men are currently so angry, why it's
Speaker 10: getting worse, and why sadly we're only going to have
Speaker 10: to expect more attacks like this.
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Speaker 8: Now, we were talking.
Speaker 6: About the next section, your next chapter, which is Cults.
Speaker 8: Let's talk about this next chapter.
Speaker 9: I would love to you this is actually my favorite chapter.
Speaker 2: So Cults is something that we do cover our Red
Speaker 2: Handed but the big in the true crime world, the
Speaker 2: big ones we haven't for a few reasons because we
Speaker 2: release every week year round, so in order to do
Speaker 2: a cult that has been well covered justice, that's a
Speaker 2: lot of time and work that we don't always have
Speaker 2: because our schedule is so tight, and we do bonus contents.
Speaker 2: And that's why we were so excited for this opportunity
Speaker 2: in the book to cover Jonestown, which is the main
Speaker 2: focus of the cult chapter. And what makes the cults
Speaker 2: chapter so interesting is that we came at it from
Speaker 2: a different angle. You'll often hear about what drives a
Speaker 2: cult leader, like what drives a cult leader to kill
Speaker 2: so many people, etc.
Speaker 10: Etc.
Speaker 9: Driven by narcissism.
Speaker 2: And the hunger for power and to be important and
Speaker 2: to be this messiah figure. What is less often discussed
Speaker 2: is what it makes a normal person turn into a
Speaker 2: cult member that will willingly kill their peer or maybe
Speaker 2: that even their own child.
Speaker 9: And the Jonestown story is such.
Speaker 2: A good vehicle to examine that transition because the thing
Speaker 2: is like, sorry, I just drop up my phone on
Speaker 2: the floor.
Speaker 9: The thing is.
Speaker 2: Normal people join cults all the time without realizing. Nobody
Speaker 2: joins a cult on purpose, No one does it knowingly.
Speaker 2: People join yoga studios or you know, vegan peacock feather
Speaker 2: making workshops. No one joins a cult on purpose, and
Speaker 2: it's actually beneficial for cults to hire to recruit successful people,
Speaker 2: because that means more people will be like, oh, they
Speaker 2: seem like really high achieving, go getting people, and they're there,
Speaker 2: so maybe I should be there also. And Jonestown is
Speaker 2: the perfect example of this because Angela Davis and Harvey
Speaker 2: Milk were all over the radio saying that Jim Jones
Speaker 2: was a visionary and that he had really had something
Speaker 2: going on because his initial message was one of racial
Speaker 2: equality in Indiana, which was seminal at the time.
Speaker 9: So the journey of the cult member to us is
Speaker 9: a lot more interesting and what.
Speaker 2: Happens in a cult, and you can read all about
Speaker 2: this in Cult Formation, which is obviously extremely famous and
Speaker 2: incredibly insightful.
Speaker 9: If you're in a.
Speaker 2: Cult, often you're very hungry, You're very tired. Hungry tired
Speaker 2: people become anxious, and they become depressed. Anxious depressed people
Speaker 2: are much less likely to try and make an escape plan.
Speaker 2: They're they're much less likely to fight back, they're much
Speaker 2: less likely to leave, and they're much less they're much
Speaker 2: more likely to do something incredibly irrational, like be convinced
Speaker 2: to murder their peer because Jim Jones told them to.
Speaker 2: And that organization of personality is something we explore really
Speaker 2: thoroughly in this book because being in a cult and
Speaker 2: the things that generally happened to you o cult, like starvation,
Speaker 2: sleep deprivation, brainwashing, they can push anyone to a point
Speaker 2: where their personality organization, as it's called is it resembles
Speaker 2: someone with a severe personality disorder who is much more
Speaker 2: likely to do something incredibly impulsive.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about bigotry and what you found out.
Speaker 8: About its raw.
Speaker 10: Yeah, absolutely so. Bigotry was an interesting chapter that actually took.
Speaker 10: It took quite a few different routes, I guess, before
Speaker 10: it got to where we finally settled with it. And
Speaker 10: I think there are so many things that we could
Speaker 10: have said when it related to bigotry, but what we
Speaker 10: wanted to keep it focused around what makes a killer tick.
Speaker 10: And in this chapter one of the things that we
Speaker 10: really wanted to do was address a few myths. I
Speaker 10: think one of the biggest myths that we see constantly
Speaker 10: perpetrated is this idea that all serial killers are white men,
Speaker 10: and that's just not the case, serial killers are as
Speaker 10: diverse as the nations from which they are spawned, So
Speaker 10: there is no particular racial group that has a monopoly
Speaker 10: over others in terms of their representation in the world
Speaker 10: of serial killing, and so we really wanted to understand
Speaker 10: why then this myth was constantly perpetuated. That was one
Speaker 10: part of this chapter, and you know, we explore a
Speaker 10: few different theories as to why. In particular, because this
Speaker 10: became a very US centric chapter, why say African American
Speaker 10: serial killers are ignored? Was it because predominantly their victims
Speaker 10: would also.
Speaker 7: Be African American? But that didn't make sense.
Speaker 10: Because when we looked at a killer like Gary Heidnik,
Speaker 10: the majority of his victims were African American.
Speaker 7: Or at least people of color.
Speaker 10: And then you also look at somebody like Jeffrey Dharmer,
Speaker 10: who absolutely the majority of his victims were either Asian
Speaker 10: or African American. So when that was the case, and
Speaker 10: especially Dharma is absolutely a household name in terms of
Speaker 10: as far as serial killers go, then what was the
Speaker 10: real reason that we didn't talk that much about black
Speaker 10: serial killers? That was the question we wanted to address,
Speaker 10: and so we compared it to the case of Harrison Graham,
Speaker 10: who is a black killer who was operating at the
Speaker 10: same exact time as Gary Heidnick, almost down the road
Speaker 10: from him, and why that case went ignored. So really,
Speaker 10: that was the premise of this entire chapter was an
Speaker 10: exploration of almost why in the media and in sort
Speaker 10: of pop culture we choose to ignore certain types of
Speaker 10: killer and why we almost do especially I'm sure Dan,
Speaker 10: you know you must have come across this in your
Speaker 10: time in true crime, almost the veneration of certain types
Speaker 10: of serial killers and the glamorization that we see in
Speaker 10: disturbing things like there are things like Etsy coloring books
Speaker 10: of serial killers.
Speaker 7: It's a very bizarre world. So why is that?
Speaker 10: And is it because we have been able to give
Speaker 10: a certain type of person. So maybe white men the
Speaker 10: ability to be serial killers because in movies like say Hannibal,
Speaker 10: things like this, every serial killer movie that comes out,
Speaker 10: the serial killer is this omnipotent, incredibly intelligent, charismatic man.
Speaker 7: And is that the reason?
Speaker 10: Is it because we can only think about giving those
Speaker 10: characteristics to a white man in society and who knows,
Speaker 10: generally speaking, serial killers are not that charming or particularly intelligent.
Speaker 10: That seems to be another myth that we've created to
Speaker 10: glamorize them, and that was really the crux of this episode.
Speaker 10: And the other point was why did somebody like Jeffrey
Speaker 10: Dahmer and Gary Heidnick go after the victims they did?
Speaker 10: And this idea of the less dead. Sure, absolutely, Jeffrey
Speaker 10: Dahmer says that he was just attracted to those men,
Speaker 10: and I absolutely believe there was an element to that,
Speaker 10: But it's hard to ignore the fact that when one
Speaker 10: of his victims, a fifteen year old boy, managed to
Speaker 10: escape after Jeffrey Dahmer drilled the hole in his head
Speaker 10: and he was found by police, that they simply returned
Speaker 10: him to Jeffrey Dahmer. And I wonder if they would
Speaker 10: have done that if the racial roles had been reversed.
Speaker 10: And you do have to wonder, is it because Jeffrey
Speaker 10: Dahmer was operating out of a very poor part of
Speaker 10: Milwaukee and he was killing us that type of.
Speaker 7: Person that people that the police were ignoring it.
Speaker 10: So that was really at the heart of the episode.
Speaker 7: Of the chapter on bigotry, we.
Speaker 6: Were talking about the chapter on sex, torture, trailers, tribal tats,
Speaker 6: and truth or Consequences and you discuss with your research
Speaker 6: your brain on sex, and you cite the case of
Speaker 6: David Parker Ray and family and discuss sexual sadism. Can
Speaker 6: you talk about this chapter and its importance.
Speaker 2: Yes, this was actually a story that we tued and
Speaker 2: throwed whether to include in the book, just because you know,
Speaker 2: as I'm sure you have a similar experience, Dan, we
Speaker 2: read a lot of fucked up shit all the time,
Speaker 2: so we are a bit desensitized.
Speaker 9: But the story of David Parker Ray, I've dreamt.
Speaker 2: About it ever since I read about it, and Saru
Speaker 2: has had similar experiences, so we're worried whether it's a
Speaker 2: bit too much.
Speaker 9: But then we thought, no, this is the perfect illustration.
Speaker 2: Because I think sex and sadism are extremely important when
Speaker 2: you're looking at killers, because a lot of people think
Speaker 2: that almost all serial killers are sexually motivated, which isn't
Speaker 2: really the case because quite often rape is about power
Speaker 2: rather than it is about sexual attraction. However, sadism is
Speaker 2: a different thing entirely. So the David Parkeray story takes
Speaker 2: place in Elephant But which is right next to Truth
Speaker 2: or Consequences in New Mexico, And we just thought that
Speaker 2: truth or consequences was the most terrifying name for a town.
Speaker 9: Ever, So it.
Speaker 2: Just captures this image of and for British people, New
Speaker 2: Mexico is exclusively breaking bad. So to explore anything beyond
Speaker 2: that was a good opportunity. And the David Parkeray story
Speaker 2: is so special and so completely unique because you can
Speaker 2: piece it together in a lot of different ways. The
Speaker 2: most usual telling of the story is that a woman,
Speaker 2: a totally naked woman, is running down the street in
Speaker 2: Elephant but with a collar and a chain around her neck.
Speaker 2: And that just opening of a story is just straight
Speaker 2: out of Texas chains or massacre. But it happened, It
Speaker 2: really truly happened.
Speaker 9: And one woman she just went missing for three days.
Speaker 9: She went missing for three days.
Speaker 2: Her husband divorced, says, I can't believe you left me,
Speaker 2: And it was like days after they got married. She
Speaker 2: just disappeared and she's like, no, you have to understand,
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened. I don't know where I was.
Speaker 2: And he didn't believe her. He just thought she was
Speaker 2: off on a bend or whatever. And then years later
Speaker 2: it turns out she was abducted by David Parkerrey and
Speaker 2: defiled for days in this sex caravan he's had in
Speaker 2: his backyard, and the police identified her by a tattoo
Speaker 2: on her calf that was in CCTV footage that David
Speaker 2: Parkerrey was taking. So she didn't know what had happened
Speaker 2: to her, and the police had to show her the footage.
Speaker 2: And there's something so dystopian and so night marriage of
Speaker 2: marriage or something of watching yourself in a situation that
Speaker 2: you don't know happened to you, and that situation, that
Speaker 2: story has never come out of. It's never left my brain,
Speaker 2: like I think it's there forever, and I think that's
Speaker 2: why it's such an important story to tell.
Speaker 6: You also cite the work of Jim Fielder, which was
Speaker 6: I interviewed about his amazing book Slow Death to get
Speaker 6: some of the information that it informed you in this chapter.
Speaker 7: Certainly, Yes, absolutely, and that's the thing you know.
Speaker 10: With us, we're not, as I said before, we're not
Speaker 10: investigative journalists or dedicated to one particular case. So whenever
Speaker 10: we were doing the exploration into a specific case, be
Speaker 10: it David Parker Ray in this or any of the
Speaker 10: others that we looked at in any depth, we were
Speaker 10: pulling on the fantastic work of different authors like that,
Speaker 10: because our book really is an amalgamation of everything we've learned,
Speaker 10: and it's true crime cases put together under these different factors,
Speaker 10: trying to answer the question of what makes the killer
Speaker 10: tick alongside social commentary. You know, that's what we do
Speaker 10: on the podcast, and that's what we do in the book.
Speaker 10: So we're always eternally grateful for the fantastic journalists and
Speaker 10: authors who have done all of the deeper dives into
Speaker 10: the various different cases for us.
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Speaker 6: Now, you we have talked about this book, and you
Speaker 6: leave some conclusions for this after doing all this research
Speaker 6: and four years of your hit podcast and the research
Speaker 6: that went into doing each one of those episodes, as
Speaker 6: you deep dive each week, what were some of and again,
Speaker 6: it's hard to make huge conclusions, but where are some
Speaker 6: of the conclusions that you cite in this book at
Speaker 6: the end of it.
Speaker 10: Oh, I think that was one of the things really,
Speaker 10: I think always on the show and even with the book,
Speaker 10: while we wanted to absolutely explore the different factors and
Speaker 10: how it affects a person on the path to becoming
Speaker 10: a killer, we know that we cannot offer a.
Speaker 7: Sort of definitive answer.
Speaker 10: I think the definitive answer can only be that it's complicated,
Speaker 10: and that the things that make a person become a killer,
Speaker 10: whether it is their genetics, whether it is their childhood
Speaker 10: and upbringing, whether it's their relationships that they encountered throughout
Speaker 10: their life in the form of other human beings, whether
Speaker 10: it is their sexual drives, whatever motivates them, whether it
Speaker 10: is any latent misogyny or bigotry, whatever it may be,
Speaker 10: or perhaps insanity, mental health, whatever it is, it's something
Speaker 10: that is incredibly human. So the real point of the
Speaker 10: book was to stop this otherization, was to stop looking
Speaker 10: for a quick fix, stop looking for a magic answer
Speaker 10: that would just solve this conundrum of why people kill
Speaker 10: and it was to offer a holistic, kind of nuanced,
Speaker 10: all encompassing approach that there are just so many reasons.
Speaker 10: And the reason we wanted to do that is again,
Speaker 10: our podcast in this book is very much based on
Speaker 10: social commentary, and I think when people want to call
Speaker 10: them monsters and we want to look for us, say
Speaker 10: a gene that caused this, and what we're doing is
Speaker 10: we're saying we don't need to worry about the other
Speaker 10: things the society is responsible for, like poor access to healthcare, education, housing,
Speaker 10: whatever it might be, lack of social services, lack of resources,
Speaker 10: lack of social support. All of these things aren't important
Speaker 10: because oh well, they were a monster.
Speaker 7: They were going to do it anyway.
Speaker 10: And I think it's the easiest way for society to
Speaker 10: wash its hands of these people and to say we're
Speaker 10: not responsible, when of course we are. So I think
Speaker 10: that was the ultimate conclusion. And the other thing we
Speaker 10: just wanted to pick up on very final bit was
Speaker 10: the idea of what is it that motivates us as
Speaker 10: people who consume true crime and what makes us tick?
Speaker 10: Why are we so obsessed with true crime? And it
Speaker 10: really you know, again, we don't have a definitive answer,
Speaker 10: nor would be so arrogant as to say we did.
Speaker 10: But the only thing we could talk about it was
Speaker 10: from our perspective and this idea that we're all biologically
Speaker 10: hard wired in some way to almost seek out fear,
Speaker 10: and maybe with true crime it's a cathartic thing because
Speaker 10: we're in a privileged enough position where we can allow
Speaker 10: ourselves to glimpse into the very extremes of human behavior
Speaker 10: to be truly afraid to feel that fear. But then
Speaker 10: at the end of it, we can turn off the
Speaker 10: podcast or close the book and walk away and just
Speaker 10: go back to our normal lives. And maybe that's what
Speaker 10: makes us tick, and maybe that's what drives us to
Speaker 10: being fascinated.
Speaker 7: With true crime and with murder and with killers.
Speaker 10: So, you know, we can't offer a solution or an
Speaker 10: answer to any of it, but hopefully what we wanted
Speaker 10: to do was just maybe think differently about some of
Speaker 10: the assumptions we've all held, and challenge some of our
Speaker 10: thinking and look at killers and the justice system and
Speaker 10: everything else encompassed in that in a more nuanced way,
Speaker 10: rather than in such black and white terms as it's
Speaker 10: sometimes presented.
Speaker 8: Now.
Speaker 6: You did an incredible amount of research, and you do
Speaker 6: put the bibliography in there is tell us just some
Speaker 6: of the research that you did do, some of the
Speaker 6: resources that you did use to be able in order
Speaker 6: to be able.
Speaker 8: To do this.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I look at some of the stories that didn't
Speaker 2: make it into this book as long lost children, and
Speaker 2: the only place they live on is a bibliography. Every
Speaker 2: chapter went through several different iterations, so it's kind of
Speaker 2: impossible to point to each source. I would say so
Speaker 2: for the cults chapter, for example, the absolute definitest source
Speaker 2: on Jonestown is The Road to Jonestown, incredible book by
Speaker 2: Jeff Grynn, and that I mean that you need to
Speaker 2: look no further than that book. But then when it
Speaker 2: came to so for example, our sex and Sadism chapter,
Speaker 2: originally we were going to include Peter curtin The Vampire
Speaker 2: of Dusseldorf, and like that, sourcing was much more difficult
Speaker 2: because it's a much older case and it really is
Speaker 2: just one book, the sad this which is translated from German,
Speaker 2: and it's all sort of all over the place and
Speaker 2: it's not chronological, and it's confusing and difficult to read.
Speaker 9: But most of we, you know, We're incredibly.
Speaker 2: Lucky to live in the day and age that we do,
Speaker 2: that we have all of these incredible resources available to us.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so we we we read books, we watched documentaries,
Speaker 2: we paid a lot for academic papers. But it was
Speaker 2: all absolutely worth it because I think, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're we're commentators. We're not we're not so scientists, we're
Speaker 2: not investigative journalists.
Speaker 9: We are commentator so enable.
Speaker 2: So to be able to commentate on anything, you need
Speaker 2: to be able to back it up.
Speaker 9: So we're very proud of the bibliography.
Speaker 2: We're very proud of the reading that we did putting
Speaker 2: the book together, because it backs up our arguments and
Speaker 2: without backup your arguments of meaningless.
Speaker 6: Were there any surprises or whatsoever in this research and
Speaker 6: in writing this book.
Speaker 10: Oh, there were quite a few surprises.
Speaker 7: I guess there.
Speaker 10: Were lots of things that we you know, we had
Speaker 10: the bare bones of the idea of what we wanted
Speaker 10: the book to be about, but it really was evolving,
Speaker 10: I would say, right up until the day that we
Speaker 10: submitted it the final draft to our publishers. It just
Speaker 10: felt like every time you opened one new book, or
Speaker 10: one new academic paper, or one new anything.
Speaker 7: It just opened a whole new can of worms.
Speaker 10: I think this maybe wasn't so much as surprise, but
Speaker 10: it was something that was partly challenging, partly so motivating
Speaker 10: was that for everything you could find both sides of
Speaker 10: the story. For example, if you look at genetics, there
Speaker 10: are people who are absolutely convinced, beyond a doubt, that
Speaker 10: the warrior gene is fundamentally it is this gene that
Speaker 10: you know influences human behavior to this extent, and you
Speaker 10: can find so many papers that back it up, and
Speaker 10: then you can find papers that say the exact opposite.
Speaker 10: And it was which route are we going to take?
Speaker 10: And you know, the point we were trying to make
Speaker 10: is we're going to read everything we can and just
Speaker 10: present to you the case that we think is the
Speaker 10: most valid. And so I think it was the puzzle
Speaker 10: of putting everything together. It wasn't surprising, but I guess
Speaker 10: we have never ever sat down and tried to look
Speaker 10: at so many different cases and so many different variables
Speaker 10: within one piece of work like we did for this book.
Speaker 7: So it was it was eye opening in that sense.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you and applaud you for coming
Speaker 6: on and talking about this your book Red Handed, An
Speaker 6: Exploration of Criminals, cannibals, cults and what makes a killer tick?
Speaker 6: Can you tell us about where this Obviously they could
Speaker 6: take a look at Amazon, but if there's a Facebook
Speaker 6: page and also tell us a little bit about your
Speaker 6: weekly podcast, red Handed.
Speaker 8: Sure.
Speaker 2: So we do have a Facebook group and you can
Speaker 2: also follow us on Twitter and on Instagram at red
Speaker 2: Handed the Pod. You can find the book in all
Speaker 2: good bookstores Amazon if you have to, and red Handed
Speaker 2: we come at you every week with a socio political
Speaker 2: explanation of crime. Very very recently, last week we've done
Speaker 2: a two parts on Shamima Begum, who is a British
Speaker 2: nationalale not a British national anymore.
Speaker 9: She was fifteen, she ran away from East.
Speaker 2: London to join ISIS in Syria and now she's currently
Speaker 2: stateless in a camp and it's the argument of whether
Speaker 2: whether she should be allowed back to the UK because
Speaker 2: here is where she was radicalized, or whether she should
Speaker 2: be left stateless in account.
Speaker 6: Yes, great, thank you so much, Sir Ruthie, Sir Ruthie
Speaker 6: Bala and Hannah McGuire Red Handed An exploration of criminals, cannibals,
Speaker 6: cults and what makes a killer tick. Thank you so much.
Speaker 6: It's been a very interesting episode. Thank you so much
Speaker 6: for this interview.
Speaker 7: Thanks for jeving us, thank you for having us down.
Speaker 9: Good Night, good night.