WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.680 Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.839 I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping 3 00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.039 those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:15.599 to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. Hello. 5 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:19.440 Everyone, We're delighted to be guest hosts for this Trauma 6 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:23.120 Therapist podcast. We want to thank Guy for inviting us 7 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:28.239 to take part in this series. I'm Anna White and 8 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:33.399 I'm here with my professional partner, clinical psychologist, doctor Corey Glead. 9 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:37.600 Corey and I started a mental health project four years ago. 10 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:41.280 It's called the Type see Personality. And this is actually 11 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:45.560 the third time we've been on this particular podcast, the 12 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:48.439 first time as guests and this is our second time 13 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:50.039 as guest hosts. 14 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:53.840 So for those listeners who don't know about the Type 15 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:57.560 See project, Type CEE is a personality that is defined 16 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:02.840 by an extreme need to please other people. Sorry, let 17 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:05.480 me start that over because something okay. For those listeners 18 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.280 who don't know about Type C, it's a personality defined 19 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:12.159 by an extreme need to please other people, having extreme 20 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.760 difficulty in feeling like you're worried about disappointing or letting 21 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:16.640 other people down. 22 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:18.519 Type sees avoid. 23 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:22.879 Conflict at all costs and often feel disconnected from their emotions. 24 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:24.480 They suppress a lot. 25 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.200 Usually there were some dark forces in childhood that created 26 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:32.519 type se trace. Often it was from some form of emotional, physical, 27 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:35.359 or sexual abuse. Something bad happened in some way that 28 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:38.599 led type cs to believe that their needs didn't matter 29 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:43.359 and don't matter, that they really are lesser than This 30 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.519 could have been outright physical abuse. There was a lot 31 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:48.040 of ways that this can develop. 32 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.159 So we've explored a lot of these type see roots 33 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:57.120 on our own podcasts that today we're going to talk 34 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:01.719 about sexual abuse and we are excited to have Elizabeth 35 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:07.000 Clements as our guest. She is an expert on this topic. 36 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:10.719 A little bit about Elizabeth. She wears a lot of 37 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:15.599 different hats. She is a mediator, a conflict resolution trainer, 38 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:19.120 and a shaman, which is how I was first introduced 39 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:22.280 to her. Today, we're going to talk about an organization 40 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:25.439 that she founded is called Hidden Water. It's a nonprofit 41 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:30.800 and it uses a restorative justice model to work through 42 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:36.319 child sexual abuse and the conflict that results in families. 43 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:40.120 So this is obviously a very heavy and difficult topic, 44 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:42.639 but we really feel it's a very important one. So 45 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.319 we just want to caution anyone who has been a 46 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.800 victim of any childhood physical or sexual abuse that this 47 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.039 episode could be a bit triggering, but we hope you'll 48 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.479 stick around because we do think that it's very important. So, 49 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:58.479 first and foremost, thank you so much Elizabeth for coming 50 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:03.719 on the podcast together our guests. We are are very 51 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:05.879 happy to have you here today. So we wanted to 52 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:11.319 talk briefly. We wanted to just talk about about hidden water. 53 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:14.439 What is it, how does it work, and what led 54 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:15.280 you to found it? 55 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:19.400 Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. 56 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:25.319 I found it. So I was running the community mediation 57 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.800 center in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and we would get lots 58 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.599 and lots of cases where you know, neighbor disputes or 59 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.919 family disputes or you know, maybe even criminal disputes. Hous 60 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:41.000 it certainly housing conflicts, and so often we would get 61 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.199 to the bottom, you know, get into the conflict, the 62 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:46.120 concrete part, and if you stayed in it long enough, 63 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.800 you'd kind of come upon a child sexual abuse situation 64 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:54.759 from maybe decades earlier. But that how that dynamic from 65 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.520 way back having been unaddressed, was causing current day conflicts 66 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:04.039 among the adults, and I realized, you know, sometimes we 67 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.000 would have very direct conflicts about that, you know, foster 68 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.199 mom and the kid against the mom who was harmed 69 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:12.919 by the stepdad kind of thing. But a lot of 70 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:17.800 times it was just housing disputes, you know, our you know, 71 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:21.399 financial disputes or different types of things. And so that 72 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:25.720 I realized this is not a great venue for discussing 73 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:28.839 that in this mediation that's supposedly about this sort of 74 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:33.399 concrete issue, but really all this stuff was underneath it, 75 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:37.680 and a different concrete issue would just keep emerging, you know, 76 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:41.560 because you're not really addressing the underneath. So that is 77 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.079 what led me to look for a different process that 78 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.800 would be able to actually directly address the child sexual 79 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.759 abuse history, and oftentimes families have generations of that, and 80 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.360 so I found Restorative Justice and started Hidden Water in 81 00:04:58.079 --> 00:04:59.920 you know, our first circles were in two thousand and six, 82 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:04.199 and we started to see that, you know, I started 83 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:06.800 to realize even in the mediation that like one person 84 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.920 against the other is not a great way to address 85 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:13.079 this because it's actually a systemic issue. Often you know, 86 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:15.079 either in the family on the family level or in 87 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:19.240 the community level, and you can't really address it, you know, 88 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.079 just letting those concrete conflicts bubble to the surface. You 89 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:25.040 have to really get under it, and you can't do 90 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:27.480 it the way the court does it, like this person 91 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.399 against that person, because you're not really getting to the 92 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.160 impact that happens to all people, whether you're the offender 93 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.120 or the victim. All the people that are sort of 94 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:42.079 in the blast radius I sometimes say, are impacted, you know, indirectly, 95 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:48.759 but impacted, and they also perpetuate the dynamic going forward. 96 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:53.240 Are people willing to participate in this process? It seems 97 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:56.759 like the victim, of course, would want to be able 98 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:01.079 to address these issues, but the perpetrate or I would think, 99 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:03.279 would have a really hard time coming to the table, 100 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.720 and maybe the other people that enabled it. So can 101 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:08.000 you just maybe talk a little bit about that and 102 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:10.439 how you can get everybody involved? 103 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:11.959 Right? 104 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.759 So, we initially, or at least my idea initially was 105 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.480 to bring the whole family together, but then we realized 106 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.920 that so much work, internal work has to be done 107 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.079 before you're even going to be able to have a 108 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.759 conversation inside the family system. That that sort of next level, 109 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.959 that's like the advanced glass, and so we set up 110 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.279 circles for people who were harmed under the age of 111 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.839 twenty five, people who cause harm to someone under the 112 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.439 age of twenty five, the non offending caregivers or parents, 113 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.680 and then the other people other loved ones, which are 114 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.160 usually spouses, you know, who weren't around when it happened, 115 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:51.079 but they're certainly in the blast radius. Now other siblings 116 00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:53.480 who may not have been harmed, or adult children who 117 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.600 are being impacted by their parents not having dealt with us. 118 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.920 So we have these four different groups do circles with 119 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:04.519 them alone so that they get the support and they 120 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.959 get the understanding and they can sort of explore how 121 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:10.480 this event impacted them, you know. So a lot of 122 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.319 times the non offending parents or other loved ones show 123 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:16.399 up to say what can I do for the victim right? 124 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:20.240 Or what can I do if my child calls harm? 125 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:23.439 But it's really about how did it impact you? How 126 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:26.439 is it impacting you today? Like how where are you 127 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:32.439 being a negatively changed by this and how are you 128 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:35.160 playing in in ways that are negatively impacting other people? 129 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:37.920 So it's really about like that internal work. And then 130 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:40.279 we find that if each person in a family, not 131 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:42.240 each person. It could just be two people in a 132 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:47.439 family system three for do this work. The system changes 133 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.759 even if you don't put them all together. But I 134 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:52.480 do want to say one thing about like, we don't 135 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:54.680 use that word perpetrator. We say you know a person 136 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.680 who calls harm in part because over fifty percent of 137 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.240 people who cause harm caused it when they were also miners, 138 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.319 and they do not only like two percent or three 139 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.800 percent of the cases do those people grow up to 140 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:08.160 harm sexually as adults. 141 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:09.160 So there is a. 142 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.120 Huge, huge, huge group of people who harmed as children 143 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.319 are not at risk of harming in adulthood. They want 144 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:18.040 and they're usually have harmed you know, their cousin or 145 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:21.680 their sibling, somebody like that, and they are desperate to 146 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:25.360 repair and they want they want any way to be 147 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:30.279 able to repair, and they need to be supported because 148 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:32.759 it's not an easy it's not an easy path to 149 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:37.440 walk to figure out how to be accountable and make 150 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.360 amends to somebody you love who probably loves you too, 151 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.200 and so not that we you know, most of the 152 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:45.440 people who come to Hidden. 153 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:48.120 Water are the people who are harmed, that's for sure. 154 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.960 But they that seems like a given to me because 155 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.279 they always have to do their work or they're not 156 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.600 going to make it, you know. But so often the 157 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.799 rest of the people in the family system want a 158 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.159 part anticipate, but there aren't a lot of places for 159 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:04.600 them to know how to do that. And so we 160 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.840 have two hundred people on our waiting list at every season, 161 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.080 and so it's not an issue of like we can't 162 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:14.960 give people to come to the table, we don't have 163 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.039 enough resources to serve all the people that want to 164 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:18.840 come to the table. 165 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.720 Wow, this is just so amazing to hear you say. 166 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:27.559 So the beginning of my career I actually did. I worked. 167 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:31.720 With ADULTSOO childhood physical and sexual abuse, and then went 168 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:34.879 on to work in New York City hospitals and predominantly 169 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:36.960 a Medicaid population for fifteen years. 170 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:39.120 And there's just a lot of trauma. 171 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:43.759 And I think what you're talking about is so important 172 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:50.240 because obviously the act of trauma is extremely you know, 173 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:56.240 influential in a person's life, but it's also a family 174 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.519 member who you may have wanted to talk to and 175 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:03.320 did talk to, and how that experience was went went down. 176 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:07.200 Basically that can almost make the trauma just as challenging 177 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:10.120 because a lot of times things were brushed on the 178 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:13.840 rug or family members didn't know how to respond, and 179 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:19.799 that invalidating environment really exacerbates the traumatic response. And so 180 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:27.240 I think that providing an environment where families are coming together, 181 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:31.039 maybe not the person, what was the language you use? 182 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:35.080 The person, the person who caused harm, the person aparts harm. 183 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.720 You know, maybe they're not always, you know, depending on 184 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.360 the situation, able or willing to be present. But I 185 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.919 think there are so many family members who don't know 186 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.279 the language, don't know what to say, don't really know, 187 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.840 they feel guilty themselves and don't know how to support 188 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.559 this other person. So you're you're, You've talked a lot 189 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:56.480 about this, but I would actually just love to hear 190 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:59.320 a little bit more specifics, like what does this look like? 191 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.399 Is it virtual? Is it in person? Where are you? 192 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:03.559 Like? 193 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:04.639 What is this circle? 194 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.639 Can you talk a little bit more about the details, 195 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:08.840 like what would this look like? 196 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:11.639 Yeah, so it hidden? 197 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:14.720 Or do we have a twelve week We call it 198 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.120 a season and the circle meets for an hour and 199 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.759 a half once a week and it's all virtual, almost 200 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:26.639 all virtual. Since COVID, we pushed everything online, partly because 201 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:29.159 people who've been harmed might show up in New York 202 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:32.000 City in person, but their family members are all over 203 00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:34.519 the world, you know, because it's very common to move 204 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:37.200 away from a family when you have that kind of dysfunction, 205 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.200 and so we've always had to be online. So it's 206 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:44.200 pretty easy to be online, and there's you know, there's 207 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.039 other benefits that we realize. So it's eight people who 208 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:51.600 all identify with that experience, not people that know each other. 209 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.080 And so, you know, let's just take non offending parents 210 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:59.080 for example. They come to this circle, there's eight of them. 211 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:00.519 They may be the. 212 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.159 Parent of someone who was harmed, someone who cause harm, 213 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:05.519 or both because of very common for a sibling to 214 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:09.679 harm a sibling, and they sit with other parents who 215 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:14.440 have that same circumstance and they're you know, what you 216 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:16.440 said is absolutely right. I just want to go on 217 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.159 a little tangent here, which is that so many adults 218 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.519 look back and they say, I don't even care about 219 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:24.480 the person who harm me, especially if they're outside of 220 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.879 the family. It's like, I don't even care about that. 221 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.639 I care that my mom believes me, or you know, 222 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.840 something like that. And so the real harm over time, 223 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:35.879 not the real harm, but this secondary harm over time 224 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.200 is the way the family shows up and they and 225 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.519 I used to feel very contemptuous about that, having coming 226 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.159 from a five generations of child sectribues of my family, 227 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.639 I used to feel like, why don't these parents show 228 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:51.279 up like this? But actually, why would they know how 229 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.399 to No one has ever taught anyone. 230 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.120 On a societal level, on. 231 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:59.639 A you know, school community level, on a family level, 232 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:01.919 on a person a little no one has ever explained 233 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:04.679 how to deal with this. So everyone just says, just 234 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.440 don't talk about it, brush it under the rug. 235 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:07.360 And tell people to forgive. 236 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.120 And so these twelve week circles all have a curriculum 237 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.720 and you go around three times, everyone gets to speak. 238 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:18.080 There is no therapist, there is no social worker. There's 239 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.440 just people who have that as a personal experience, and 240 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:25.120 we've trained them to run the curriculum and we start 241 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.320 to unpack whatever the issue is depends. You know, there's 242 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.879 sort of common issues in each of the four groupings, 243 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.000 and we just start to unpack. Like non offending parents 244 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:39.080 are often saying, like, just tell me how to fix it, 245 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:40.799 Just tell me what hoop to jump through. It's like 246 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:42.519 that there is no hoop to jump through, and you 247 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:45.480 can't fix it. But what can you do? You know, 248 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:50.440 And so there's there's sort of that unpacking of your 249 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.919 own personal experience until you sort of come to this 250 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.200 place where you realize, oh, okay, I know what's my 251 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.840 role and how I should show up, what's not my role, 252 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:00.360 and how I shouldn't show up. And then they just 253 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.679 go back into the family and start, you know, responding differently, 254 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:06.279 and that makes a big difference. So I don't know 255 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:08.559 if I answered your question, but there's eight people in 256 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:12.600 a grouping for twelve weeks an hour and a half, 257 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.639 and we had a curriculum, and that when we do 258 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:19.039 that season twice a year, I would. 259 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.759 Just be interested if it's not too challenging, just to 260 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:27.759 briefly mention, like, are there overall topics that get addressed 261 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:28.840 in the curriculum? 262 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:31.240 You know? Is it almost like a table of contents? 263 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.480 Is there are there some bigger, broader topics that you 264 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:36.320 address during those weeks? 265 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.000 Yeah, so I can give you like the quick overview 266 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.360 of the first week we do you know, what we 267 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:45.399 can call container building. You know, we're introducing ourselves, we're 268 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.759 getting to know each other. The second week we talk 269 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:51.559 about what are sort of our group norms and guidelines 270 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:54.080 for how we want to interact with one another. And 271 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.440 then I am in my book that I wrote, there's 272 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.200 the pasty Healing from Harm, which is like the core 273 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:04.639 curriculum for Hidden Water, and we explain the you know, 274 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:06.519 the sort of we call it the Paths of Healing 275 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:10.360 from Harm, and it's three phases, and we try to 276 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:12.960 start to identify where we are, and you're on you know, 277 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.559 it's not linear, of course, but it's it's sort of 278 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:20.440 a grounding framework for sort of understanding what are these 279 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.279 different phases that we kind of bounce around in and 280 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.720 just accepting all three phases, but knowing that you're trying 281 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.159 to move in this direction, not stay stuck in the 282 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:32.639 first one. And then the rest of the weeks, each 283 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:36.759 person takes a turn to talk for ten minutes about 284 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.519 this one question we ask, which is what is the 285 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.879 edge of your healing? And we realize that, like, you 286 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.919 don't have to just regurgitate the harm story over and 287 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.200 over again. You actually have to say, in what way 288 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:53.360 today is that harm that happened to me or in 289 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.519 my family or I cause impacting my life right now? 290 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.720 And so you know, for some people that's addiction. For 291 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:04.879 some people, that's people pleasing, caretaking, you know, dissociating, having 292 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.240 conflict with everyone, not having conflict with anyone, you know, 293 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.519 like all the ways in which those symptoms that grew 294 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:14.919 out of the harm are playing out and disorienting your 295 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.600 life right now. And so some people do want to 296 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:21.000 tell the story, but that's not the question. The question 297 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.279 is like, how do you see it in current day 298 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.960 wreaking havoc on your life or on your relationships. And 299 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.480 so then each person has a chance to take a 300 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.320 week and kind of do a deeper dive into what 301 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.679 that is for them. And we always say that like, 302 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:40.120 you're not healing from talking, you're actually healing from listening. 303 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.399 And so when somebody shows up to do what we 304 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.440 called their share and you hear yourself in their share, 305 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:50.639 that's when you start to feel less isolated, less alone. 306 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.559 You realize things that might have taken you one hundred 307 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.279 years in therapy to realize, but that person came up 308 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:57.960 with it and you were like, oh, I would have 309 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.879 never thought of that, But that's me too, you know. 310 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.640 And so it seems that the group dynamic is what 311 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:09.359 is healing, not, you know, because there's so much isolation 312 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.240 in child sexual abuse, and so to hear yourself reflected 313 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:16.519 in someone else's different story is very healing. 314 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:25.400 Yeah, you mentioned forgiveness, and we've been writing a book 315 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:29.640 about type SE and we did a little bit about forgiveness, 316 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.400 and it's a kind of a complicated topic. 317 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.039 So I'm very curious on like, how do you think 318 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.839 about forgiveness when it comes to child sex abuse. 319 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.440 Yeah, I'm surprised I mentioned it because we always say 320 00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:47.400 in Hendwater's forgiveness is a swear word, you know, because 321 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.680 it gets so weaponized by that other people in the family. 322 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.160 Like I've said, I'm sorry so many times. I was 323 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.359 a kid too. Why can't you just forgive? Or God 324 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.400 teaches us to forgive, or you know, like a lot 325 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.480 of the people in the systems think if you could 326 00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.839 just forgive, we could all go back to normal, right, 327 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:06.480 And so that's why we say forgiveness is a for word, 328 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:11.279 because it's not really forgiveness. It's like we want you 329 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.319 to stop talking about this so we can stop having. 330 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.160 To worry about it kind of thing. But of course 331 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:18.599 that's not how healing works. 332 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:19.119 And so. 333 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:22.839 You know, we we spend a fair amount of time 334 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:26.039 in the other circles, not the not the one with 335 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:28.759 the victims, but the other one's saying forgiveness is not 336 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.400 the end goal, Like the person who is harmed, thriving 337 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.279 in their life and the way they want is the 338 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:38.000 end goal. And that may for some people be you know, 339 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:42.200 reconciling with their siblings that harm them. It also may 340 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.720 be like going to court and finally taking that stepfather, 341 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:50.319 you know, to account in a legal system. It may 342 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:52.920 be saying I'm never you know, I will not be 343 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.519 going to family events with that uncle or that aunt 344 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:56.839 or that grandparent. 345 00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:58.160 Uh, you know. 346 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.279 So it's really about what do you What is the 347 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:02.720 person who is harm need and how can the rest 348 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.279 of the people support that so they can thrive. It's 349 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.440 not really about forgiveness. And the other thing we always 350 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.640 say about forgiveness is forgiveness finds you. It's you don't 351 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.920 idea have to decide that you forgive. You could say, okay, fine, 352 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.920 I forgive you, But if you're still feeling resentful, you're 353 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.480 still getting triggered, and you're still feeling unseen, then you 354 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:25.119 probably didn't even if you said so. So so often 355 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.359 like I forgive you is okay, I agree, I won't 356 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:29.240 talk about it again. 357 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:31.000 But like true. 358 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.160 Forgiveness is like letting it go and you know, and 359 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.519 that can happen, but it's not the goal. 360 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:44.079 Anna. 361 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.680 I would love just to hear because we have this 362 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:54.000 type see project how you how many complicated people pleasers 363 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:55.839 you do run across in your circles? 364 00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.359 You know, we went out and interviewed a lot of 365 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:00.559 people for our book and there was the theme of 366 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.799 child sex abust with some of our interviewee. So it's 367 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.400 it's definitely a contributor to this need to focus on 368 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.599 everyone else other than yourself. So if you have, you know, 369 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:20.279 anything that you want to you know, I guess say, 370 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.720 when it comes to people pleasers, we'd love to hear it. 371 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:33.359 Wait, Elizabeth, we cannot hear you. Did you press mute 372 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:34.000 by accident? 373 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:40.839 You can't hear me? 374 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:48.960 So good now, okay, I'm sorry, let me Is there 375 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.640 a better way to ask that question? I'm happy to 376 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:52.240 do that again. 377 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:55.559 Well, I think, I mean, I think the the main 378 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.200 question is just oh now we can't hear you again? 379 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:08.920 Can you hear me now? 380 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:09.759 Yes? 381 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:10.279 Yes? 382 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.799 Okay, all right, sorry with that. 383 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.720 Sorry, My question is really just uh, you know, obviously 384 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:28.039 there can be so many different trauma responses. Particularly in 385 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.400 the work that I did, we talked a lot about, 386 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.279 you know, the aggressive and then the passive, Like oftentimes, 387 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:38.759 you know, you want to protect yourself, how do you 388 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.759 do that? You can become overly aggressive to protect yourself. 389 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.960 You can become overly passive to protect yourself. And obviously 390 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.880 there's a lot of connections between that and the types 391 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.319 of personality, right, I mean, the types of personality really 392 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:57.480 is coping mechanism for staying safer later on, and just 393 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:02.559 wondering do you see that frequently in your circles and 394 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:07.160 also do you specifically address that in any way? Like 395 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.960 you know, obviously addiction is a behavior that could. 396 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:13.240 Come out of it's a trauma response. 397 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:16.359 What are you know, if you have any thoughts or 398 00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:18.880 words of wisdom or sort of guidance for you know, 399 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.319 things that you've learned or helped people with over the 400 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:24.680 years when they are struggling with that passive what other 401 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.400