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That's Chumbuck 21 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:58.039 Casino dot com. 22 00:00:58.079 --> 00:00:58.799 Nope, we're not necessary. 23 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:01.159 Daidover everyby loss comes to a difference being plus. 24 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.760 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 25 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.879 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.239 written about him Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 27 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.239 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:34.040 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:46.599 Good Evening. On Christmas Night nineteen ninety six, six year 31 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:49.560 old John Benet Ramsay was murdered in her family's home 32 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:52.959 in Boulder, Colorado. A ransom note was found in the home, 33 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:55.799 but it was hours before her father, John found her 34 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:59.000 body in the basement. She'd been strangled with a garat 35 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:02.920 and her skull was fractured. The media sensationalized the tragic 36 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:06.120 death of the child beauty queen, and public speculation and 37 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:09.360 rumors ran rampant. What followed was one of the most 38 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:15.680 notorious unsolved murder investigations in American history. Boulder police fixated 39 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:20.360 on John Binney's parents as suspects. Needing investigative help, the 40 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:25.120 Boulder DA brought in legendary homicide detective Lou Smitt. However, 41 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:28.400 he was soon disenchanted with law enforcement's obsession with the 42 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:33.240 Ramsey family as the primary suspects excluding other possibilities, Smitt 43 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.080 resigned but continued to work on his own time and 44 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:39.680 at his own expense, determined to find justice for John Benay. 45 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:43.199 He determined the Ramsey family was not involved in her death, 46 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:47.439 but died in twenty ten before he could identify the killer. 47 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:52.080 Thousands of people attended his funeral service, including John Ramsey 48 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:56.639 and the detective's lifelong friend and colleague, John Anderson, along 49 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:00.599 with a handful of retired detectives. Anderson and Smith family 50 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.840 continued to pursue justice. Aiste on Smith's work now for 51 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.000 the first time and Lou and John Beney Anderson tells 52 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:11.680 the story of Smith's investigation and why the Smit family 53 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:15.800 team now believes that the killer can be identified. The 54 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.800 book that we're featuring this evening is Lou and John Beney, 55 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:22.719 A Legendaries Lawman's Quest to Solve a Beauty Queen's Murder, 56 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:27.000 with my special guest author, John Wesley Anderson. Welcome to 57 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:29.120 the program, and thank you so much for this interview. 58 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:31.680 John Wesley Anderson. 59 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:33.240 Thank you, Dan, It's a privilege to be with you. 60 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:37.800 Thank you so much and congratulations on this extraordinary book. 61 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:41.039 Well, thank you. I accept that on behalf of the team. 62 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:44.520 There was quite a significant team over the last several 63 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:48.000 years that have been involved in making sure this book 64 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:50.199 was out there and that the truth was known. 65 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:55.000 You write about that what you wanted to do with 66 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:58.240 this book, what you intended, the three things that you 67 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.840 hoped that this book would produce. Could you tell us 68 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:02.800 about that briefly? 69 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.319 Yes, thank you. In the purpose of the book is 70 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.680 to do three things. Is to get the truth out there. 71 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:10.919 There's been a lot of misperceptions and untruths about the book, 72 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:13.639 so that's first thing. The second thing is to communicate 73 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:18.759 the belief that Loose Smith had that no member of 74 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:21.680 the Ramsey family was involved in any way in the 75 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:25.199 death of John Bennet, and that's been established I think 76 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:27.800 in the book beyond any reasonable adapt But the third 77 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:31.560 thing is to encourage particularly law enforcement, except the fact 78 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.120 that this case is still solvable. The DNA is good 79 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:39.399 enough that it can identify who the killer is, it 80 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:42.000 can show who the killer is not, and it can 81 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:44.800 exclude people of interests that have been brought up in 82 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:46.279 the case, such as the Ramsey family. 83 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.839 Let's get right away to this fascinating story that you 84 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:56.120 have here, which includes your mentor, Loui Smith. Andrew Lewis 85 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:00.560 Louis Smith born nineteen thirty five in Denver, Colorado, entered 86 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:06.759 the Navy at seventeen and married his sweetheart Barbara. Four kids, Lori, Cindy, Mark, 87 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.920 and Don. I became a comp in nineteen ninety six, 88 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:12.920 and he called you, Johnny. You were eighteen years old 89 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:16.680 working at the Identification Bureau in Colorado Springs Police Department. 90 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.360 This is nineteen seventy two. Tell us about Andrew Lewis 91 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:23.199 lou Smidt, what you already knew about him, what was 92 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:26.240 his already his background that you knew about, And tell 93 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:30.680 us about the relationship that you gradually and eventually developed 94 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:31.360 with Loosemid. 95 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:35.079 Happy to do that. One minor correction, just a slip. 96 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:38.000 The murder was in ninety six. Lou began his career 97 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:40.839 in sixty six, nineteen sixty six on the Colins Springs 98 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.920 Police Department. And I started in nineteen seventy two, right 99 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:45.560 out of high school. It wasn't old that be a 100 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.480 police officer in Colorado you have to be a twenty 101 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:50.639 one to be a police officer to make an arraster 102 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:53.600 carry again. But at eighteen, I was hired full time 103 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.519 by the Colors Springs Police Department as a cadet and 104 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:59.000 for the most part we were given administrative jobs that 105 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.680 worked in communications, evidence, then cound lot. I worked in 106 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:05.560 the Identication record section was my first job for a 107 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:07.560 year and a half and that's where I met Lou 108 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:10.680 and the detect At the time, the detective bureau was 109 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.600 just down the hall from the ID Bureau Records identication, 110 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.639 and whenever detecteds needed to see if there was a 111 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:20.199 bug shot on a person over they if they had 112 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:23.199 higher records or anything and file, they came to the 113 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:28.000 Identification ID Bureau counter and cadets as well as civilians 114 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:31.000 would ask the detectives what is it that you need? 115 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:34.680 And Lou really stood out from one of the very 116 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:37.480 first times I've met him there. He was so thorough, 117 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:41.319 so engaging. He was just a very polite, humble man, 118 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:47.560 and so I really enjoyed that interaction and went out 119 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.199 of my way whenever he asked for something that was 120 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:52.319 related to a case. In the middle of that not 121 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:53.959 we worked shift work, so in the middle of the 122 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.040 night I'd often read the unsolved cases, and when lou 123 00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:59.079 had come in and talked to him about those cases, 124 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:04.040 because he's were un solders today called gold cases. And 125 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:06.879 so when he filed a report, I'd go through his 126 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:11.199 supplementary reports to see how he detailed an interview or 127 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:14.879 an interrogation or a search board. And he clearly stood 128 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.240 out from the other detectives just he was so terbole 129 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:22.519 and he became kind of an early mentor role model 130 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:22.959 for me. 131 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:29.279 He said that Loosenet believed in this Litcard's exchange principle 132 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:30.879 or the transfer theory. 133 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:35.639 Explain that, yes, professor Lecard from Lyons, France was the 134 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.120 worst first one who actually documented this theory. Then there's 135 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.319 a couple of different names transfer theory and the exchange theory, 136 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.439 but basically what the point it gets across is that 137 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:49.759 whenever a crime is committed, the suspect either leaves something 138 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:53.519 at the scene in or takes something with them and 139 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:59.800 that exchange. It's almost a triad between the suspect, the victim, 140 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:03.560 and scene. And the stronger you can connect those three 141 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:08.519 points true physical evidence, through interviews with witnesses, through a 142 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:12.160 statements conventions, through interviews with the victim of their life, 143 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:15.120 the stronger your case becomes. And what Lou would do 144 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:18.600 is he would go to extraordinary debts to prove that 145 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:23.120 transfer theory and document extensively well, what was taken from 146 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:26.000 the scene, What might the suspect have with them in 147 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.240 his possession if we get a search wark what did 148 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:29.439 he leave at the scene. 149 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:30.279 And so that. 150 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:35.559 Fundamental understanding and application of the transfer theory is something 151 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:39.759 that in experienced detectives just may not have a good 152 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:44.120 understanding of. What Lou really understood. Even beyond that is, 153 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:47.720 after he returned from the Cross Springs Lace Department, he 154 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.399 went to work for the Coroner's office in the District 155 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.120 Attorney's office, so he understood the medical legal side of 156 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:58.440 death investigations side investigations. Work a number of major cases there, 157 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:02.000 and he had experience in over two hundred murder investigations 158 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:06.720 to include pennsul murder, that kid Netmber in Colorado's or 159 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:10.639 in El Paso County Outsyagoma Springs, Colorado, where he was 160 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:14.720 able to take the same physical evidence that had been 161 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.399 there all along in a cold case that was four 162 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:19.840 years old, had in languished of a young girl by 163 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:22.320 the name of a HEATHERD. On Church and within eleven 164 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.519 weeks he had that suspect, I identified it in custody 165 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:30.200 in that suspected up pleading guilty to this first degree 166 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:33.000 murder and later pled guilty to a second counter of 167 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:35.600 first degree murder. And that was all that Lou Smith's 168 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:38.000 worked with he and his team detectives. 169 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:42.440 You also chronicle another case where you say that evil 170 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:45.399 came to Colorado Springs in nineteen seventy five with the 171 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:49.559 Freddie Lee Glenn, and Michael Corbett, and that one of 172 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:54.240 these victims was Karen Grammer Kelsey, Grammar's sister, and that 173 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:58.360 Lew had connected the crimes of Glenn and Corbett and 174 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.679 which we were five murders. Tell us a little bit 175 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.799 about Lou and his involvement in this case, a very 176 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:08.440 tragic case where Aaron Kelsey, Grammer's younger sister had a 177 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:11.480 job here in Clora Springs at a restaurant and a 178 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:15.519 group of African American arm robbers came in to rob 179 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:19.320 the restaurant, left without any money at Karen, who was 180 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:22.000 dating one of the other employees that were one of 181 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.480 the cooks, was waiting for him to get off and 182 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.799 as the Robberty's suspects for leaving the restaurant. They abducted 183 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.039 Kieran and she was brutally raped and murdered. And this 184 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:37.360 was one of a string of cases that these suspects 185 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:40.440 were involved in, and I was only on the scene 186 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:43.000 on one of these. I was a young rookie police 187 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.360 officer by that time, and I of course knew Lou 188 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:49.120 from the time I'd been at police cadet. But Lou 189 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:51.480 was one of the detectives on one of the scenes 190 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:54.480 that I was present at. But he had the ability 191 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:58.120 to look at the evidence of all of these different cases. 192 00:10:58.120 --> 00:10:59.960 I think there were five that he ended up late 193 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.559 together with the same group of suspects, those of whom 194 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.679 were at the time for Carson soldiers for Carson is 195 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.080 a large military base here in the Color Springs, Colorado area, 196 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:15.440 and ended up getting convictions on both Borbaden and Glenn. 197 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.240 And the reason I kind of bring out those earlier 198 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.320 cases is to show the complexity of the investigations and 199 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:25.679 his capability of a detective to see things and a 200 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:29.519 lot of other detectives myself included, may have overlooked, and 201 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:34.679 he had the experience and knowledge to apply those investigative 202 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:38.279 skills on cases successfully. So when he was hired to 203 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:42.320 be part of the Boulder District Attorney's Office Ramsey Task Force, 204 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.080 he brought all that experience with him and that was 205 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:48.519 sorely needed because the Boulder Police Department did not have 206 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.679 experienced homicide detectives. For people not familiar with Boulder, Colorado, 207 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:57.080 it's a bedroom community outside of Denver, Colorado, the state capital. 208 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:01.120 It's a beautiful community. It has the state at Coloro 209 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:04.600 State University is their large campus. There's some high tech 210 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:08.000 industry there, but it's a smaller community where you don't 211 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:11.639 get a lot of major crimes to include home sides. Now, 212 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.559 you just mentioned that Lou Smith's involvement with Boulder Caiado 213 00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:18.600 Police Department and this task force, the Ramsey Task Force, 214 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:21.759 tell us where you are in your career at that time. 215 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.080 You talked about that you gained invaluable experience being involved 216 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:30.039 with Low seeing how he operated from the beginning right 217 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:34.240 to the conviction, through the entire process, even the following 218 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.440 two perpetrators we talked about. He had asked you to 219 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.519 come along to that interview, so very very interesting how 220 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:43.440 he got how involved you were in learning from Lou 221 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:47.440 Smidt tell us about the circumstances in which he is 222 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:51.360 involved with the Ramsey case, and what is his belief 223 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:55.120 initially about the Ramseys and their field. 224 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:58.840 Good question, and let me try to wrap that up 225 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.799 with the belief that he had going in. And I 226 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:04.399 know this because we talked about this when he was 227 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.960 hired from being interviewed by Alex Hunder the Boulder District Attorney. 228 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.759 Lou had used me for reference and he gave me 229 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:15.080 heads up that Hey, Johnny, you might be getting call 230 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:17.720 from Boulder DA. I put you down as a reference. 231 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:20.240 They're putting together this tennis force and they need a 232 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:23.399 couple of experienced investigators, so I was happy to give 233 00:13:23.559 --> 00:13:26.960 a reference to the Bulder DA. At that time I 234 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:30.600 had been elected the sheriff in Alpass County. Hola Spring 235 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:33.639 is the county seat. Boulder is about an hour and 236 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:35.919 a half in a north and a little west of 237 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.399 where I lived at the time, and when I became 238 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.279 the sheriff in nineteen ninety four, I was elected. I 239 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:45.720 started Janior mccamp in ninety five and Lou became my 240 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:50.360 captain of detectives. Unfortunately, his wife, Barb had been diagnosed 241 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:53.799 with cancer and was undergoing some treatment. So Lou ended 242 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:57.840 up retiring from the county from the Sheriff's office, had 243 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:01.559 already previously retired from the police as and I and 244 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:04.919 that so he had gone into retirement. When the Boulder 245 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.240 DA called him, he was Alexhander. The DA Lou out 246 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:12.240 of retirement to be a part of this task force. 247 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:16.799 So going in. Before Lou started first day with the 248 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.480 task force, he and I had talked when he gave 249 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:21.639 me heads up that the DA may be calling me, 250 00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:25.080 and we both thought, again, just from living to information 251 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:27.360 from the media and what the police department had put 252 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.039 out there, this was probably going to be a pretty 253 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:32.840 straightforward case. It sounded like initially that it had to 254 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:36.879 have been a family member, since there was reportedly no 255 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.080 footprints in the snow, no forest entry. And what Lou 256 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.960 said is, well, I think it's probably just a matter 257 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:47.159 of supporting through in the family was responsible. But you know, 258 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:51.240 within probably a week or two, it wasn't very long. Actually, 259 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:53.480 the next time I spoke to Lou, I asked him 260 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:56.600 how things were going in Boulder, and the first thing 261 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:58.759 he said is, Johnny, there's something wrong with this case. 262 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.480 He said, The evidence doesn't make with what we're being told, 263 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.279 and the more he got involved in the case, the 264 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:08.440 more he was perplexed with what is being told by 265 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:12.000 the police to the media and to the public into 266 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:14.960 other law enforcement was not at all the truth. There 267 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.080 was forced entry into the home in the basement. There 268 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.519 was no footprints in the snow on the south side 269 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:24.480 the house because the snow had melted. In Colorado, when 270 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.200 you have a southern facing the home or business that 271 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:30.519 the sun warms the snow there more quickly than on 272 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.480 the shaded side, so the snow had already melted. And 273 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:36.799 Blue came to the belief that there had to have 274 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.559 been an intruder who came into the home. And when 275 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:42.399 he brought that to the attention of the Boulder detectives, 276 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:46.120 they were incensed he was not going along with what 277 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.919 their theory had been it was a family member, and 278 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:52.960 whenever he pointed out physical evidence to the contrary, he 279 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:58.639 was dismissed and really chastised for not going along with 280 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:01.840 what they were saying. I know I'll be criticized too 281 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:05.039 by Boulder and other law enforcement agencies for speaking out, 282 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.360 but Lou had the courage to say, this is just 283 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.360 not right. The work the case is as long as 284 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:12.320 he could tolerate it for a year and a half. 285 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:17.000 But when the Boulder Grand Jury was being in panel 286 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:21.080 to indict the parents, Lou resigned in protest and he 287 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:24.320 wrote a letter, a very heartfelt letter to the district 288 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.679 attorney and like Senator who had hired him, and he said, 289 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.720 I just cannot be a part of this injustice. He said, 290 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.600 it just is unethical. And so he resigned in protests 291 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:36.159 and had to fight his way to get in to 292 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:37.799 testify at the grand jury. 293 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:42.240 Let's go back, Let's unwine this story and go back 294 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:46.720 to the faithful. December twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six, five 295 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.440 point fifty two, Patsy Ramsey calls nine one one. Tell 296 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:53.799 us what the family had done on Christmas Day? Where 297 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.639 they had gone, You talk about the plans that they 298 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.440 had for Disneyland a few days later. Tell us where 299 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:03.080 the family was at beforehand, and what happens at five 300 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:07.079 point fifty two, and what is the first response from 301 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:08.559 Boulder Police Department. 302 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:12.079 And I'm happy to and I might qualify this that 303 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.240 in deciding to write this book about two years ago, 304 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:19.119 I realized that I was in a unique position to 305 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.359 write this not only had a known blue personally and 306 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.240 been involved on the fringe of the investigation since he 307 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.640 was first brought in. But the family, through the Smith 308 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:34.200 family team that I'm still gard of, I was given 309 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:40.079 unrestricted access to his investigative notes in his tentation. He 310 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:44.359 put it together a a an extraordinary spreadsheet, very detailed. 311 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:48.759 Family was so supportive of this book and helping get 312 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.799 the truth out there that I had restricted access to 313 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:54.640 six hundred and thirty two slides that he had put 314 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.759 together in his lifetime, a spreadsheet of eight hundred and 315 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:02.359 eighty three columns I mean rose fifty four callum of 316 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:07.319 each of these spreadsheets. This spreadsheet, each the cells over 317 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:11.720 forty seven thousand potential pieces of information. The report, the 318 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.640 Boulder Police report on this investigation is over one hundred 319 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:19.319 thousand pages. And he had all of this information on 320 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:24.119 his computer and his investigative notes. And what I realized 321 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:28.119 was what he left behind his legacy was this investigation 322 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.319 that now I was in a unique position to write about. 323 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.319 I had been with him on so many of these cases. 324 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:38.559 So got to the point where I felt, you know 325 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:43.279 that the family deserves this information to come to help 326 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.039 public deserves to know the truth and if I don't 327 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.559 write this story, well, then who is I apologized, Dan, 328 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:51.200 I kind of went off on a tangent there, and 329 00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:54.599 I don't know that the answer your question originally, But 330 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.000 can you respond and get me back on track if 331 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:59.720 I took this off on the Sidebarder. 332 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.119 Well, I'm glad you did. You did indicate that based 333 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:09.799 on Loosemith's comprehensive and extraordinary note taking along with these slides, 334 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.680 the amount of slides that he has that are on 335 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:16.119 the Wild Blue Press website for people to see from 336 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.640 that you were able to go back to December twenty sixth, 337 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:24.200 nineteen ninety six, see what the Boulder police response was initially, 338 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:28.920 and see how this tragedy unfolded. Tell us about five 339 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.200 point fifty two and Patsy Ramsey's cult into nine one 340 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:35.720 one and what happens when Boulder police respond. 341 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.480 Thank you to forget me back. And I should make 342 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.039 sure that I'm not overstating what's on the Wild Blue 343 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:47.519 Press website. Just wwww dot wildbluepress dot com. What's on there? 344 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:51.480 Or twenty slides of loes. The book has an additional 345 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.359 thirty six, so it's only fifty six slides of his 346 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.519 six hundred and thirty two slide presentation that he put together. 347 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.640 The other unique thing that I have is true, lou 348 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:05.079 he introduced me to both Patsy and John Ramsey. Patsy 349 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:08.759 passed away four years after the worker at the age 350 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.400 of forty nine, but I have since then been in 351 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.920 contact with John Ramsey as well as his son, John 352 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.200 Andrew Ramsey. 353 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:17.119 And so I'm in a. 354 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.759 Unique position when someone might make a statement based upon 355 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:26.759 secondhand information speculation. Getting in a unique position because I 356 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:29.119 know the story that you're asking about at five Pot 357 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.680 fifty two a m under Simmer twelfy six, nineteen ninety six, 358 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.920 not only through Low's Lands as a Thomspen detective and 359 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.759 having still in this case for the last twenty six years, 360 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:43.279 but I've also heard this story from John Ramsey, John 361 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:47.960 Bennie's father. As the family wakes up that morning, Patsy 362 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.440 the mother goes down the huge home three level above 363 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.640 ground and then a basement, and she's going down from 364 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.359 the upper level, which is where the master bedroom suite was. 365 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:01.160 As she's going down the spiral staircase on the bottom step, 366 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:05.240 she finds this three page ransom note that the killer 367 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.200 had laughed saying that they have their daughter and if 368 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.839 they're not paid this ransom demand one hundred and eighty 369 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:13.839 thousand dollars, then it should be murdered. And so she 370 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.000 runs upstairs to the second floor, which is where John 371 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:21.640 Benney's bedroom was, finds the bed empty, screams out. John Ramsey, 372 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.319 who is upstairs in the master bedroom, comes down. They 373 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:28.640 search the house, they can't find her. Immediately, John Ramsey 374 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.759 tells Patsy, now call the police. 375 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.039 Call the police. Why he's searching, you know, the rest 376 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:36.400 of the home. And to also feel like dear question. 377 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:38.359 About what the family had been doing that day, what 378 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:40.799 they were intending to do, because that's an important part 379 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.160 of the story. Is on Christmas Day, December twenty six, 380 00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:47.160 ninety six, and when they open their presence, you know, 381 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:50.559 just like any family would. That evening, they go to 382 00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.759 a French house, they have a nice dinner, and then 383 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:57.079 they come home around ten thirty. Return home in the car. 384 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:00.319 There's an attached broad floor. John Beney had all the 385 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:05.000 sleeve per day stairs, it's bed, and then and Bert 386 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.359 also goes to sleep. He's on that same level. So 387 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:09.759 it's been a long day for them. Christmas Day everybody 388 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:13.279 is tired, and they're trying to prepare for the next 389 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.400 day because they were going to be leaving early in 390 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.319 the morning. John Ramsey is pilot, then he would at 391 00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:22.359 the time his own plane, and they were going to 392 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:26.799 fly to their baby ship home in the four Ramseys, 393 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.400 John Patsy, John nam Peru. They were going to catch 394 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.519 commercial flight from Denver to Florida, where they were going 395 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:39.039 to board the Disney CRUs who was a lot of 396 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.599 exciting time head that they had been planning. 397 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:47.960 So John tell us about the initial search by police, 398 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.319 what they discover, before we talk about the subsequent searches 399 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:53.400 of the Ramsey home. 400 00:22:54.039 --> 00:22:57.880 The first responding officer is Officer French from the Boulder 401 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:00.480