WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the deep dive. Today, we are opening

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<v Speaker 1>a file that I think a lot of people assume

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<v Speaker 1>they already know. Backward and forward.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, the headlines, right.

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<v Speaker 1>The headlines. But trust me, we are barely scratching the

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<v Speaker 1>surface of the real story if we just stick to those.

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<v Speaker 1>We're looking at permanent record, the memoir by Edward Snowden.

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<v Speaker 1>And before we go any further, I want to be

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<v Speaker 1>really clear. We are putting the politics of the leaks

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<v Speaker 1>themselves to the side for.

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<v Speaker 2>A moment, right, because if you only focus on the

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<v Speaker 2>end of the story, you know, the hotel room in

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<v Speaker 2>Hong Kong, the journalists, the flight to Moscow. Yeah, you

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<v Speaker 2>miss the actual machinery that built the whistleblower. You miss

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<v Speaker 2>the human engineering, so to.

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<v Speaker 1>Speak, exactly. We're looking at the evolution of a mindset.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to unpack how a kid who grew up

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<v Speaker 1>in the suburbs of DC, obsessively playing Nintendo and hacking

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<v Speaker 1>his bedtime eventually found himself holding the keys to the

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<v Speaker 1>entire US intelligence network. Right, We've got stacks of notes

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<v Speaker 1>from his memoir covering his childhood, the explosion of the Internet,

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<v Speaker 1>the chaos of nine to eleven and his time inside

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<v Speaker 1>the CIA, And what.

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<v Speaker 2>We're really looking for here is the systems thinker. That's

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<v Speaker 2>the through line. Snowden didn't just wake up one day

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<v Speaker 2>and decide to dismantle a global surveillance apparatus. This provides

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<v Speaker 2>a specific look at how a young person raised in

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<v Speaker 2>the shadow of the NSA comes to understand that systems,

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<v Speaker 2>whether they're families, schools, computers, or governments, work based on.

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<v Speaker 1>Rules, and that those rules usually have.

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<v Speaker 2>Bugs, and more importantly, that those rules have bugs.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's unpack this. We have to start at the

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<v Speaker 1>very beginning, and I mean age six. The source material

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<v Speaker 1>describes his very first hack, and I love this because

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't the computer. No, it was a grandfather clock.

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<v Speaker 2>It's such a classic example of lateral thinking. He's six

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<v Speaker 2>years old, it's his birthday, and he's facing what he

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<v Speaker 2>calls life's first little injustice, bedtime. He has to go

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<v Speaker 2>to bed before he's actually tired.

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<v Speaker 1>I related to this so hard, the tyranny of bedtime. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but most kids know they just cry or beg or

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<v Speaker 1>maybe try to hide under the sofa. Snowden, he realizes

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<v Speaker 1>the decision to send him to bed isn't based on

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<v Speaker 1>his physical state. It's based on a piece of data.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly the time on the clocks. He identifies the governing metric.

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<v Speaker 1>So he waits for his parents to get distracted, grabs

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<v Speaker 1>a chair, and just physically moves the hands of every

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<v Speaker 1>clock in the house back a few hours.

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<v Speaker 2>And it works.

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<v Speaker 1>And it worked. He's galloping around the living room totally

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<v Speaker 1>mad with power. Yeah. But here is the key takeaway,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's something that seems to define his entire career.

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<v Speaker 1>Later on, he realized that the authorities in this case,

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<v Speaker 1>his parents were operating on a system. They trusted the

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<v Speaker 1>clocks implicitly. They didn't verify the data with their own eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>He hacked the rule, not the person. He writes that

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<v Speaker 2>hacking isn't just about coding. It's about understanding a system

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<v Speaker 2>better than the people who designed it. It's finding that gap,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the gap between how a system is supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to work and how it actually works.

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<v Speaker 1>His parents assumed the clocks were accurate references for reality.

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<v Speaker 2>And he exploited that assumption.

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<v Speaker 1>There's another great story from his childhood that I think

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<v Speaker 1>really shaped his relationship with technology. The broken Nintendo Entertainment.

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<v Speaker 2>System NES a pivotal piece of hardware for our generation.

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<v Speaker 1>The Classic. So he breaks it or it stops working,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's terrified. His dad is going to be mad.

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<v Speaker 1>His dad is a Coastguard officer, a serious engineer type.

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<v Speaker 1>But instead of getting angry, his dad sits him down

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<v Speaker 1>and they take the thing apart.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a massive moment for him. His father teaches

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<v Speaker 2>him that technology isn't magic. It's just components. It's plastic

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<v Speaker 2>and silicon and copper. If you aren't afraid to open

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<v Speaker 2>the box and look at the circuit board, you can

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<v Speaker 2>understand it.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you can understand it, you can control it.

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<v Speaker 1>And his dad drops this line about technological tyranny. He

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<v Speaker 1>basically tells him, if you don't know how these machines work,

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<v Speaker 1>the machines own you. If you know how to fix them,

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<v Speaker 1>you own them.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a worldview that sticks. It's almost prophetic. Regarding

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<v Speaker 2>his future role speaking the Nintendo Snowden uses this fascinating

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<v Speaker 2>metaphor from Super Mario Bros. To describe his philosophy on life. Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>the invisible wall, Yeah, the invisible wall.

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<v Speaker 1>Right in the original Mario, you can only run right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you can never go back to the left. If you

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<v Speaker 1>missed a mushroom or a coin, too bad, it's gone.

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<v Speaker 2>He uses that as a metaphor for time and life decisions.

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<v Speaker 2>The screen scrolls forward, the pass disappears behind that invisible wall,

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<v Speaker 2>and you are just compelled into the unknown.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been a foreshadowing. Honestly, once you make a move,

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<v Speaker 1>there is no undo button. You just have to survive

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<v Speaker 1>the level pretty much. So we have this kid who

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<v Speaker 1>loves taking things apart, loves finding loopholes. But we also

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<v Speaker 1>have to look at where he is growing up. He

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<v Speaker 1>calls it the Beltway bubble.

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<v Speaker 2>This is crucial context. He grows up in the Maryland suburbs,

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<v Speaker 2>specifically around Fort Meade, and for those who don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>Fort Meade is essentially the Vatican City of the US

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence community.

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<v Speaker 1>It's where the NSA is headquartered.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hm. He describes it as a company town.

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<v Speaker 1>But the companies the federal government exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>His parents worked for the government, his neighbors worked for

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<v Speaker 2>the government. He even mentions that the girls he had

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<v Speaker 2>crushes on had fathers in the FBI.

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<v Speaker 1>So secrecy wasn't this dark, mysterious thing. He was just normal.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the air they breathed. It was just what

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<v Speaker 2>dads did.

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<v Speaker 1>And in this environment he discovers the Internet. But and

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<v Speaker 1>this is important, he's talking about the Internet of the nineties,

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<v Speaker 1>the wild West.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a major theme in the book, the contrast

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<v Speaker 2>between the Internet he fell in love with and the

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<v Speaker 2>Internet that exists today. He describes the early Internet as

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<v Speaker 2>a sanctuary. It was anonymous, you could be anyone.

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<v Speaker 1>A cooperative utopia, that's his phrase for it. I loved

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<v Speaker 1>his description of this. He talks about how you could

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<v Speaker 1>reinvent yourself every day. If you said something dumb on

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<v Speaker 1>a message board, or if you were bullied at school,

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<v Speaker 1>you could go home, log on and be a completely

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<v Speaker 1>different person. You weren't tied to your real identity.

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<v Speaker 2>Versus the modern Internet, which he calls surveillance capitalism. Your

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<v Speaker 2>online identity is just it's inextricably linked to your legal identity,

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<v Speaker 2>your bank account, your location.

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<v Speaker 1>We shifted from a creative space to a.

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<v Speaker 2>Commercial one, a commercial, competitive one where everything you do

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<v Speaker 2>is recorded.

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<v Speaker 1>Which brings us to the Los Alamos story. This is

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<v Speaker 1>where baby Snowden turns into a real hacker. He's a

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<v Speaker 1>teenager surfing the web and he ends up on the

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<v Speaker 1>website for the Los Alamos National Laboratory.

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<v Speaker 2>The place where they develop the atomic bomb, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Not exactly a fan site. Light reading for a teenager,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, And he finds a security flaw, a really

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<v Speaker 1>basic one too. He calls it directory walking.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically, the digital door was unlocked.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he could see internal memos, employee data, all sorts

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<v Speaker 1>of stuff you shouldn't have access to.

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<v Speaker 2>You now, paus for a second. In today's world, if

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<v Speaker 2>a kid hacks a nuclear lab, the swat team is

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<v Speaker 2>breaking down the door in five minutes.

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<v Speaker 1>That's exactly what his mom thought. He calls the lab

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<v Speaker 1>to report the bug, and his mom is standing there terrified,

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<v Speaker 1>thinking he's going to prison.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's not what happensins not at all.

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<v Speaker 1>The IT guy gets on the phone, thanks him and says, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>when you turn eighteen, give us a call you want

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<v Speaker 1>a job.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a different time, but it also reinforced this

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<v Speaker 2>idea for him that systems are flawed and if you

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<v Speaker 2>are smart enough to find the flaws and report them.

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<v Speaker 1>You might be rewarded, not punished.

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<v Speaker 2>It validated his white hat instincts.

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<v Speaker 1>But not always. We have to talk about the permanent

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<v Speaker 1>record concept itself. This comes up in high school. He

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<v Speaker 1>hacks his grades, not by breaking into the computer, but

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<v Speaker 1>by hacking the syllabus.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the systems thinker again. He calculates exactly how

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<v Speaker 2>much the homework is worth versus the tests. He realizes

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<v Speaker 2>he can get a zero on every single homework assignment,

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<v Speaker 2>ace the tests, and still pass the class with a.

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<v Speaker 1>C maximum efficiency, minimum effort. I mean, I respect the hustle.

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<v Speaker 2>Honestly, his teachers did not. One teacher warns him, you

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<v Speaker 2>need to start thinking about your permanent record, and that

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<v Speaker 2>phrase it just haunts the whole book. He realizes later

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<v Speaker 2>that the digital age, we all have a permanent record.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything we do online, every credit card.

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<v Speaker 2>Swipe, it's all stored forever. The teacher's threat became the

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<v Speaker 2>reality of the twenty first century.

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<v Speaker 1>So he's this tech savvy kid, kind of drifting, playing

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of video games, maybe lacking a bit of direction,

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<v Speaker 1>and then the world changes.

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<v Speaker 2>September eleventh, one thousand and one, he.

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<v Speaker 1>Describes driving past the NSA headquarters on nine to eleven,

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<v Speaker 1>the chaos, the panic. He mentioned seeing people using those red,

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<v Speaker 1>white and blue Dixie cups to put in chain link

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<v Speaker 1>fences to spell out United we stand and.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a massive turning point for him, he admits,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think this is really honest of him, that

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<v Speaker 2>he got completely swept up in the.

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<v Speaker 1>Fervor I wanted to be a liberator.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he bought the narrative completely. He says, his rational

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<v Speaker 2>judgment was just defeated by his heart. He wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>punish the bad guys, and this motivation is what drives

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<v Speaker 2>him to enlists in the.

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<v Speaker 1>Army, and not just the regular Army. He signs up

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<v Speaker 1>for the eighteen X ray program Special Forces, Special Forces.

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<v Speaker 1>He wants to be the guy kicking down doors.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a start contrast to the computer guy persona we

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<v Speaker 2>usually associate with him. He wants to prove he's not

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<v Speaker 2>just a brain and a jar.

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<v Speaker 1>But the military experience, well, it doesn't go as planned,

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<v Speaker 1>not at all. The story of Daisy cracked me up,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's also painful. He gets paired with this massive

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<v Speaker 1>bodybuilder named Daisy in basic training. Snowden is this scrawny

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<v Speaker 1>tech kid and he has to carry this giant guy

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<v Speaker 1>during drills.

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<v Speaker 2>It sounds funny, but the physical toll was real. He

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<v Speaker 2>ends up breaking both his.

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<v Speaker 1>Legs bilateral tibial fractures.

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<v Speaker 2>He literally ran on them until they cracked.

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<v Speaker 1>And here is the next hack. He's injured. He's in

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<v Speaker 1>the hospital and the doctor offers him a way out,

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<v Speaker 1>an administrative separation.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a fascinating look at how the government bureaucracy works.

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<v Speaker 2>The doctor essentially tells him, look, if we give you

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<v Speaker 2>a medical discharge, the government has to pay for your

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<v Speaker 2>health care forever. If you sign this paper saying you're

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<v Speaker 2>fine and just quitting, you can leave today.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a hack for the government. They exploit the loophole

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<v Speaker 1>to save money.

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<v Speaker 2>And Snowden signs it because he just wants to get

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<v Speaker 2>out of there. He failed at the physical service, so

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<v Speaker 2>he decides to serve with his mind instead.

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<v Speaker 1>This leads us to the most critical systemic shift described

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<v Speaker 1>in the book, The Rise of the Contractor. He calls

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<v Speaker 1>it homo contractors.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, let's unpack this because I think people hear government

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<v Speaker 2>contractor and they think of mercenaries or construction workers. But

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<v Speaker 2>in the intelligence community it means something very specific.

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<v Speaker 1>Right after nine to eleven, the intelligence budget exploded. The

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<v Speaker 1>government had unlimited money to spend on security, but there

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<v Speaker 1>are federal laws that cap the number of actual government

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<v Speaker 1>employees civil servants that agencies can hire.

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<v Speaker 2>So how do you hire thousands of new spies and

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<v Speaker 2>tech workers. If you have a hiring cap, you use

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<v Speaker 2>the loophole. You hire private companies Dell, Lockheed, Martin, Booz,

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<v Speaker 2>Allen Hamilton, and those companies hire the people. These contractors

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<v Speaker 2>work in the CIA building sit at CIA desks, use

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<v Speaker 2>CIA computers, but their paycheck comes from a private corporation.

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<v Speaker 1>And Snowden points out this creates a bizarre culture. You

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<v Speaker 1>have career civil servants who are there for the mission,

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<v Speaker 1>and then you have this army of young, well paid

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<v Speaker 1>contractors who are basically tech mercenaries.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is how a drop out with no college

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<v Speaker 2>degree gets into the CIA. The standards for contractors were different.

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<v Speaker 2>They needed tech talent desperately, and they didn't care about

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<v Speaker 2>the credentials as much as the skills.

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<v Speaker 1>They just needed bodies and chairs who knew how to

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<v Speaker 1>run servers exact. So he gets his security clearance, which

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<v Speaker 1>he describes as a really nerve wracking experience worrying about

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<v Speaker 1>his teenage chat logs, and he lands a job at

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<v Speaker 1>CIA headquarters, but not as a spy.

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<v Speaker 2>He's as sissedman, a system administrator.

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<v Speaker 1>And here's where it gets really interesting. He introduces us

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<v Speaker 1>to a guy named Frank.

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<v Speaker 2>Frank is the ghost of the old CIA. He works

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<v Speaker 2>the night shift. He doesn't trust digital storage. Every night,

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<v Speaker 2>Frank backs up the raw intelligence onto physical magnetic tapes

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<v Speaker 2>and locks them in a.

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<v Speaker 1>Safe Frank is living in night teen eighty and Snowden

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<v Speaker 1>is living in two thousand and six. But Frank teaches

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<v Speaker 1>him something important. The older generation, the bosses, the people

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<v Speaker 1>running the agency, they didn't understand the new technology.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the sis edmin insight. Because the leadership didn't

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<v Speaker 2>understand the network, they hired these young kids to run it.

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<v Speaker 2>And to run a network, you need root access, you

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<v Speaker 2>need the keys to the kingdom.

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<v Speaker 1>Snowden realizes that as a lowly sessedman, the bottom of

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<v Speaker 1>the totem pole, he has more access to information than

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<v Speaker 1>the senior spies. He can read the internal news, he

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<v Speaker 1>can see the raw intel from field agents. He says

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<v Speaker 1>he could play god.

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<v Speaker 2>He describes it as having a view of the agency's

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<v Speaker 2>global reach that the spies themselves didn't have. They were compartmentalized.

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<v Speaker 2>They only knew their specific mission.

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<v Speaker 1>Sissidmind sees the whole weapon.

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<v Speaker 2>He sees the metadata of the entire organization.

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<v Speaker 1>So he's soaking all this up, working the night shift,

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<v Speaker 1>reading classified reports just out of curiosity, and he decides

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<v Speaker 1>he wants to go overseas. He wants the real spy.

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<v Speaker 2>Life, but the agency plays a bit of a trick

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<v Speaker 2>on him. He wants a dangerous posting. He wants to

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<v Speaker 2>go to a war zone, maybe to prove himself after

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<v Speaker 2>the army failure.

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<v Speaker 1>But instead they sent himid Geneva.

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<v Speaker 2>Geneva, Switzerland, the banking capital, not exactly a war zone.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a plush gig to put him in a diplomatic cover. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but this is where the story takes a literary turn.

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<v Speaker 1>He mentions reading the book Frankenstein before.

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<v Speaker 2>He arrives, which is set in Geneva, right exactly, And

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<v Speaker 2>he draws this parallel that I think defines the whole

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<v Speaker 2>deep dive. He compares the intelligence community to doctor Frankenstein.

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<v Speaker 1>That is a heavy comparison. How does he justify that.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll think about the story. Victor Frankenstein uses science and

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<v Speaker 2>technology to create something powerful, a living being, but he

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<v Speaker 2>does it without thinking about the moral implications. He does

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<v Speaker 2>it because he can. And then the creation breaks free.

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<v Speaker 1>It becomes a monster that he can't control.

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<v Speaker 2>And Snowden sees the surveillance system as the monster. He

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<v Speaker 2>sees a system where the technological capability, the ability to

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<v Speaker 2>collect data, to spy on everyone, to store everything, has

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<v Speaker 2>completely outpaced the ethical and legal restraints. The tech grew

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<v Speaker 2>faster than the rules.

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<v Speaker 1>He talks about his time at the Hill, the training

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<v Speaker 1>center in Virginia. Before he left, he organized a little

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<v Speaker 1>rebellion there because the housing conditions were terrible.

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<v Speaker 2>Which shows his personality again. He's willing to challenge authority

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<v Speaker 2>if the system is broken. He emailed his boss's boss

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<v Speaker 2>to complain about the hotel they were staying.

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<v Speaker 1>In that hacker mindset again, if the system is unfair,

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<v Speaker 1>hack it go around the chain of command.

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<v Speaker 2>But in Geneva, the steaks are so much higher. He's

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<v Speaker 2>not just hacking a hotel bill. He's seeing how the

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<v Speaker 2>CIA operates in the banking world. He sees how they

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<v Speaker 2>recruit sources, how they manipulate people.

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<v Speaker 1>And he's doing it while maintaining the systems that make

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<v Speaker 1>it all possible.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the convergence of everything we've talked about. The kid

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<v Speaker 2>who moved the clocks, the teenager who hacked the nuclear lab,

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<v Speaker 2>the soldier who wanted to fight for freedom.

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<v Speaker 1>Now he's sitting in a bank vault in Switzerland, realizing

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<v Speaker 1>that the freedom he wanted to protect is being eroded

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<v Speaker 1>by the very system he's building.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is the tragedy or the irony of the

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<v Speaker 2>systems thinker Snowden wanted to understand how everything worked. He

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to see the machine. And when he finally got

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<v Speaker 2>to the center of it, when he finally saw the

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<v Speaker 2>whole machine.

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<v Speaker 1>He realized it was built to consume everything. The Internet

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<v Speaker 1>he loved, the anonymous creative sanctuary was being turned into

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<v Speaker 1>a tool for state control.

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<v Speaker 2>And remember the invisible wall.

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<v Speaker 1>For Mario, you can only go forward.

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<v Speaker 2>By the time he's in Geneva, he's starting to realize

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<v Speaker 2>he's hit a wall. He can't unknow what he knows.

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<v Speaker 2>The system is moving in one direction, more control, more secrecy,

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<v Speaker 2>less privacy, and he has to decide if he's going

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<v Speaker 2>to keep moving with the screen or if he's going

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<v Speaker 2>to try to break the console.

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<v Speaker 1>It really reframes the whole whistleblower narrative. It wasn't about politics, really,

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<v Speaker 1>it was about engineering. He looked at the US government

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<v Speaker 1>and said this code is buggy, This system is flawed,

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<v Speaker 1>and the users, the public don't even know it's broken.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the Sisigmund perspective. You don't ask for permission to

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<v Speaker 2>fix a server that's on fire. You just fix it.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is when the server is the global intelligence apparatus,

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<v Speaker 2>fixing it looks a lot like trees and to the

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<v Speaker 2>people who own the machine.

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<v Speaker 1>So what does this all mean for us? For you,

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<v Speaker 1>the listener, I mean, we aren't ciasis, admit no, but.

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<v Speaker 2>We are users of the system. I think it forces

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<v Speaker 2>us to look at the systems in our own lives.

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<v Speaker 2>We live in a world of terms and conditions. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't read, We use devices we don't understand. We rely

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<v Speaker 2>on black boxes for everything from our finances to our

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<v Speaker 2>social lives. Snowden's story is a warning that if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't understand the system, you have no power over it.

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<v Speaker 1>We are all just players in that Mario level running

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<v Speaker 1>right because the screen tells us.

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<v Speaker 2>To exactly, and the central tension of the book and

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<v Speaker 2>his life remains unresolved for us too. We want safety,

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<v Speaker 2>so we build these massive systems. We want convenience, so

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<v Speaker 2>we give up our data. But at what point does

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<v Speaker 2>the creation the Frankenstein monster take over.

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<v Speaker 1>That is the question. When technological capability output paces accountability,

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<v Speaker 1>who is actually in control, the creators or the creation.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's the questions Note wants us to ask

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<v Speaker 2>every time we pick up our phones.

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<v Speaker 1>A huge thank you to everyone for listening to this

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive into Permanent Record. It's a dense file, but man,

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<v Speaker 1>is it worth on backing? Absolutely, We'll catch you on

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<v Speaker 1>the next deep dive. Stay curious, stay informed, and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>check your.

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<v Speaker 2>Clocks and read the terms of service.

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<v Speaker 1>See you next time.