Speaker 1: He was cold, cold that he was cold?
Speaker 2: What's going on up there?
Speaker 1: Could be the most important event in history.
Speaker 3: Now, I haven't become the destroyer of worlds, I said.
Speaker 4: I hope this is close to him?
Speaker 3: Is all?
Speaker 2: Never again?
Speaker 1: M hm. Hello and welcome to the Tales submit Ark Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bob. You're with my co host Brittany.
Speaker 3: Hey, guys, what's up, Brittany?
Speaker 1: How's it going?
Speaker 3: It's going good? How are you?
Speaker 1: It's going good? I have to start this episode off
Speaker 1: with a bit of an apology though, because, as we know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of later in the week for an upload.
Speaker 3: Yeah do you what tell? Why?
Speaker 1: Okay, So, are.
Speaker 3: You gonna try to flip this on me?
Speaker 1: No? No, but so I'll just put it out in
Speaker 1: the open. I have been completely addicted to the new
Speaker 1: Final Fantasy seven rebirth it just launched. I'm a massive
Speaker 1: Final Fantasy seven fan. Anyone who knows me knows that
Speaker 1: that is my like goat, game of the year, Game
Speaker 1: of the century, top three of all time. End of story.
Speaker 1: There's I'm not taking any rebuttal.
Speaker 3: Every time a new one and like a new whether
Speaker 3: it was the first time that a rendition came out
Speaker 3: or a Remit came out or this one, like you
Speaker 3: dive completely back into the Fallout or Fallout the Fallout Fallout.
Speaker 1: You're gonna put some respect on Final Fantasy's name.
Speaker 3: You're gonna put some respect on fall Out New Vegas.
Speaker 1: Okay. See, one has a good story and the other
Speaker 1: is about a disgruntled mailman.
Speaker 3: So let's let's just know you don't need to over
Speaker 3: complicate it, but let's just agree to disagree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone has opinions, and you know is wrong, but
Speaker 1: it's fine. Okay. So this is a bit of a
Speaker 1: weird week because usually I'm the one who finds the
Speaker 1: stories and then you help research the stories, and we
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, have an amalgamation of melting of
Speaker 1: the minds here, but you brought one to me, and
Speaker 1: the title alone has to be kind of like, uh,
Speaker 1: I don't like this.
Speaker 3: I don't like any of this. Yeah, you definitely seem
Speaker 3: to be more skeptical about this one, which is weird
Speaker 3: because like it's classified more as a encryptid, you usually
Speaker 3: see more open minded about it.
Speaker 1: But it's the name. Tell everyone the name.
Speaker 3: So what we're gonna be talking about today is the
Speaker 3: Dovert Demon.
Speaker 1: And everyone knows my thoughts on demons. Demons don't exist.
Speaker 1: If you were an asshole in real life, you were
Speaker 1: an asshole when you're dead. That's just how this works.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but this one isn't. You'll see as we get
Speaker 3: more into it. This one isn't what you think it's
Speaker 3: gonna be.
Speaker 1: Okay, because because when you initially said, you know, Dover demon,
Speaker 1: I'm like, first off, that's weird, because you pitched it
Speaker 1: to me as as a cryptid story. I said, well,
Speaker 1: a demon is a cryptid, but I guess the Jersey
Speaker 1: Devil kind of has the same thing. And again we're
Speaker 1: treading the waters the Satanic panic a little bit here.
Speaker 1: And given the timeframe, I you know, don't I purposely
Speaker 1: whenever you bring me a topic, I don't look into
Speaker 1: it at all. So I'm going into this one hundred
Speaker 1: percent blind. I have no idea anything about this story,
Speaker 1: with the exception of it's encrypted. And I think you
Speaker 1: said it might loosely tie into like the Hompkinsville or
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, the Kelly story. Is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So actually one of the sketches, which I didn't
Speaker 3: realize this until today, one of the sketches for the
Speaker 3: Dover Demon is frequently used in Hellire.
Speaker 1: Interesting.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, so I I definitely think there's a connection.
Speaker 3: I mean, we know that, like, goblin like creatures are
Speaker 3: all over the country, countries are all over the world,
Speaker 3: but they're very prominent in North America for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, absolutely, And it is interesting to me these
Speaker 1: goblin ask your creatures. They all share some similar characteristics,
Speaker 1: but there's always something like that separates them. It's similar
Speaker 1: to how we have like the million bigfoots, you know,
Speaker 1: the Bigfoot of Yettiebominable Snowman, the port They.
Speaker 3: All have good they all have individual characteristics that make
Speaker 3: them slightly different, but the core definitely seems to be
Speaker 3: the same in a lot of them.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're just take us away to the Dover Demon,
Speaker 1: and I apologize. I know I'm going to jump in
Speaker 1: a lot here, throw in some you know, Catholic church,
Speaker 1: Gothic church evil. I know that that's going to happen
Speaker 1: occasionally here, but please take it away.
Speaker 3: Okay, So we're going to be starting on April twenty first.
Speaker 3: I think I believe it was nineteen seventy seven when
Speaker 3: this occurred.
Speaker 1: Seventy seven, seventy seven, right around ten years post Offman Mothmania. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Ohio River Valley UFO flap.
Speaker 3: Yes. Where it gets kind of similar with the Mothman
Speaker 3: encounters is that the witnesses were all mostly all teenagers,
Speaker 3: so they were young, young early adults anywhere between I
Speaker 3: think fifteen and twenty one were the ages of the witnesses. Okay,
Speaker 3: And it all happened over like two nights, basically technically
Speaker 3: one night, but yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's like it came and it went pretty quick.
Speaker 3: Yes, So they literally came in, it was spotted for
Speaker 3: one night by I believe three different groups of people,
Speaker 3: and then it just vanished and was never seen again.
Speaker 1: And again this is early reminiscent. Not to keep throwing
Speaker 1: back to the Ward interview because I know I mentioned
Speaker 1: it last week as well, but you know, his documentary
Speaker 1: that he was producing, I don't think it's out. I
Speaker 1: don't know if he even has a release date for
Speaker 1: the Skinwalker Ranch documentary that he did with. I think
Speaker 1: it's Tony Merkle's who he's working with. There is a
Speaker 1: lot of things in the Skinwalker Ranch flap as well
Speaker 1: that there were, you know, an overwhelming amount of obscure
Speaker 1: events happening, and you went to Basin for twenty thirty
Speaker 1: forty plus years. But what's always been interesting to me
Speaker 1: about Skinwalker Ranch. This is something we kind of touched
Speaker 1: about with Ward, is for every like three things that
Speaker 1: were continuous over the course of you know, the twenty
Speaker 1: thirty years, there's these little extremely seemingly random happenings that
Speaker 1: kind of pop in and pop out, you know, for
Speaker 1: a week, a day, an hour at a time, and
Speaker 1: then they're never reported again. Yeah, and I almost wonder
Speaker 1: should we as investigators start to look at these and
Speaker 1: categorize them a bit different? You know, it's all part
Speaker 1: of the you know, if we all want to believe
Speaker 1: the unified field theory, the phenomena as a whole is
Speaker 1: just interacting in certain ways. But if we're going to
Speaker 1: categorize these things, do we need to have these like
Speaker 1: instantaneous occurrences versus the long you know, over some long
Speaker 1: running Yeah, Like, is there any comparison between the two
Speaker 1: and can be fun start similar to United strangeness if
Speaker 1: we ever go back and do Kansas or something for example,
Speaker 1: is there some kind of a similarity you can find
Speaker 1: like we're doing with united strangeness, you know, painting the
Speaker 1: excess back over top of one another. Do the ones
Speaker 1: that pop up for a day or two also have
Speaker 1: any similarities that the longer running ones seem not to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that would be a
Speaker 3: good way to look and to try and categorize and
Speaker 3: differentiate between the short term and long term sightings.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But I think where you kind of get I think
Speaker 3: where it can get a little hazy is that the
Speaker 3: side effects of people experiencing these things are still the same.
Speaker 3: Like this can be still be a very scary, traumatic,
Speaker 3: okay experience.
Speaker 1: Yes, we look at Betty and Barney Hill. The encounter
Speaker 1: happened over one night, but they kept this their entire lives.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you have to be careful with how much
Speaker 3: you try put these things in a box. Yeah, because
Speaker 3: there are still real world consequences for these people that
Speaker 3: experience them. Absolutely, So I do think scientifically, yes, that
Speaker 3: could be advantageous, but you have to be careful viewing
Speaker 3: it like that through a Lenz like that, if you
Speaker 3: know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 3: Okay. So this begins at ten thirty pm on April
Speaker 3: twenty first, nineteen seventy seven, when three seventeen year olds
Speaker 3: Bill Bartlett, Mike Masica, and Andy Brody are driving north
Speaker 3: on Farm Street. Bartlett, who's behind the wheel of a Volkswagen,
Speaker 3: spots something creeping along a low wall of loose stones
Speaker 3: on the left side of the road. At first, he
Speaker 3: thinks it's a dog or a cat, until his headlights
Speaker 3: shine on it and he realizes it's nothing he's ever
Speaker 3: seen before. The figure slowly turns its head and stares
Speaker 3: into the light. It has two large, round, glassy, lidless
Speaker 3: eyes shining brightly. And this is a quote like two
Speaker 3: orange marbles.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that is eerily similar to some of the
Speaker 1: reports from the Kelly incident of the glass the glass
Speaker 1: looking eyes almost reflective, no discernible eyelids of any sort.
Speaker 1: Very very interesting. Does it go? Does it? I also
Speaker 1: want to point out the like the the rock outcropping
Speaker 1: that he had mentioned, because I know recently we made
Speaker 1: a mistake where we had covered the same state of
Speaker 1: like multiple times on United Strangeness. And there's like a
Speaker 1: boulder style monster I think in Colorado that appears in
Speaker 1: these like rocky outcroppings. So kind of have some yeah, but.
Speaker 3: That was a mountain. That's that's That's the weird thing
Speaker 3: about that Boulder Monster in Colorado is it's like literally
Speaker 3: a personification of landslides that come off a mountain. It's huge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a titan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, basically. Okay, But the one thing that I find
Speaker 3: interesting about the eyes is the first thing that I
Speaker 3: thought of when I heard that is marbles. If you
Speaker 3: twist them in light, it almost seems like they have
Speaker 3: a flat pain in them that reflect like a solid
Speaker 3: sheen of light. And the first thing I thought of
Speaker 3: is like deer eyes.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And we'll see further along in the story. There's
Speaker 3: actually different encounters where the first encounter believed it was orange.
Speaker 3: The second encounter, the female I think she was like
Speaker 3: fifteen years old, she thought that she swore that they
Speaker 3: were green. They were green eyes. Interesting, and so a
Speaker 3: lot of people would look at that and say, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, that's inconsistent, like did this thing actually exist?
Speaker 3: But depending on the kind of headlights you have at
Speaker 3: the angle that your headlights are, that like, it will
Speaker 3: change the color of deer eyes that reflect it back
Speaker 3: at you if you're looking at like a deer at night.
Speaker 1: So the Dover Demon was just a deer that speak.
Speaker 3: If I see a creature a deer that looks like
Speaker 3: the Dover Demon, like it shouldn't exist fair enough, Okay,
Speaker 3: according to the physique of this of this creature, and
Speaker 3: we're about to get in that as well. Okay, So
Speaker 3: it has a watermelon shaped head, a watermelone, and it's
Speaker 3: resting on the top of a thin neck and it's
Speaker 3: basically the size of the rest of its body. So
Speaker 3: I have no idea how it's holding up that head.
Speaker 1: Well, it kind of reminds me of the Kirkland melon
Speaker 1: heads as well, which, yeah, our friends over at the
Speaker 1: Sasquatchers Network, I believe they're currently filming or they might
Speaker 1: have just wrapped filming a Kirkland melon head documentary. I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's a release date for this yet either.
Speaker 3: So, except for it's an oversized head, the creature is thin,
Speaker 3: with long, spindly arms and legs and large hands and feet.
Speaker 3: The skin is hairless and peach colored and appears to
Speaker 3: have a rough err so like like wet sand papers
Speaker 3: what they could compared it to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this kind of just reminds me of like like
Speaker 1: your typical gray that you would here described I mean
Speaker 1: the large, bulbous heads, and depending on who you research
Speaker 1: and read, I mean, there are people who think that
Speaker 1: that's where the human race is heading towards right now,
Speaker 1: Like as we do, we're going to we're going to
Speaker 1: reach a point of superiority mentally where we no longer
Speaker 1: need these giant physical bodies. But all we factor in
Speaker 1: is just the mental fortitude, mental capacity of the person.
Speaker 1: And so through I guess reverse evolution, we're going to
Speaker 1: get weaker. I guess it would still be evolution, it's
Speaker 1: just evolution of a different form.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But the wet sandpaper, that's a very specific texture
Speaker 3: of their skin because everything I've ever read on grays,
Speaker 3: which admittedly like it's not like a primary topic of
Speaker 3: discussion that I try to dive into, but it's always smooth.
Speaker 4: It's never rough, Yeah, smooth, glistening, almost.
Speaker 3: Almost slimy, like like a slimy looking skin.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've heard them described as what like their skin
Speaker 1: looks like like a wet snake.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but even a snake does scales, so it wouldn't
Speaker 3: be completely smooth. Like everything I've heard has just been smooth.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't like snakes. Just so if anyone was
Speaker 1: wondering my stands on snakes, No.
Speaker 3: And that's for sure going to be used against you.
Speaker 3: Good job Ferbie and a snake. Hey, worst things happen
Speaker 3: about ske Ferbika, please continue. Don't give anyone any more
Speaker 3: nightmare fuel to send to me. Oh that's a harass
Speaker 3: you when bully you. The skin is hairless, though, im
Speaker 3: peach colored. That's the other thing. The hue of its skin,
Speaker 3: I've never heard of peach. That's almost a that's like
Speaker 3: a human color.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, not in a creature, but injured Cold and Carl,
Speaker 1: both of them were described as having like movie star
Speaker 1: style skin, which I came to understand is more of
Speaker 1: a tan all of skin I think are like Greek
Speaker 1: Italian skin.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that they still looked Yeah, they still looked
Speaker 3: more human than humanoid. This thing is just a humanoid
Speaker 3: with a giant freaking head.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It almost reminds me of those fake Rake stories
Speaker 1: that were making the rounds about a month ago on Reddit.
Speaker 1: So but again, this predates the Rake by you know,
Speaker 1: three decades, four decades. So.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this creature stood no more than three and a
Speaker 3: half to four feet tall and The figure is shaped
Speaker 3: like a baby's body, with long arms and legs.
Speaker 1: All right, I was out, I'm back in. I'm back in.
Speaker 1: I never thought i'd say this. I'm pro demon, pro
Speaker 1: dover demon.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty four is a wild year.
Speaker 3: It has been making its way along the wall, or
Speaker 3: it had been making ants way along the wall, its
Speaker 3: long fingers curling around the rocks, when the lights, the
Speaker 3: car lights surprised it. Unfortunately, neither a Barlet's companion saw
Speaker 3: the creature. The sighting only last a few seconds before
Speaker 3: Barlet could speak, and the car leaves the scene. I
Speaker 3: really flew after I saw it, Barlet recalls. I took
Speaker 3: that corner at forty five, which is pretty fast. I
Speaker 3: said to my friends, did you see that? And they said, nah,
Speaker 3: describe it. I did, and they said go back, go back,
Speaker 3: and I said, no way. When you see something like that,
Speaker 3: you don't want to just stand around and see what
Speaker 3: it's going to do. Debatable, I mean, okay, but we're freaks, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, No, it is interesting, though we have we
Speaker 1: have to now look at the human element of the drivers,
Speaker 1: saying absolutely hot, not going back, that's that's real fear.
Speaker 1: The ones who didn't see it. Again, we had a
Speaker 1: bear in mind teenage boys. I don't know if alcohol
Speaker 1: is involved, but you know, teens out and party and
Speaker 1: having a good time on the weekend, out and back roads.
Speaker 1: They're like, well, yeah, I need to see I want
Speaker 1: to see this thing. You know, because as as young
Speaker 1: men do there, our capacity for danger doesn't really exist
Speaker 1: the same way it does for you know, our female companions.
Speaker 1: And so these two are like, hell, yeah, show this
Speaker 1: to me. I have to see this. But it's also
Speaker 1: interesting that only the drivers saw it, because you would
Speaker 1: think the passenger would be the one that would see
Speaker 1: it versus maybe the person in the back seat.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, but as a driver, especially at night,
Speaker 3: I mean we've taken plenty of night trips. I pay
Speaker 3: attention to the road more than you do. Hell, even
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm in the passenger seat, I pay more attention
Speaker 3: to the road than you do.
Speaker 1: That's fair.
Speaker 3: So you can't really fall from for not seeing it,
Speaker 3: especially if they were talking to each other, you know, gallivating,
Speaker 3: joking around. They're not going to really be paying attention
Speaker 3: to their surroundings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I would agree with that, but.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they then take this to a very antagonizing turn.
Speaker 3: The two companions who did not see this. They finally
Speaker 3: got me to go back, and Mike was leaning out
Speaker 3: of the window yelling, come on, creature, and I was saying,
Speaker 3: well you cut that out. Andy was yelling I want
Speaker 3: to see you, but the creature was gone. Barlet dropped
Speaker 3: off his friends and went to Walpole Street home, visibly upset.
Speaker 3: He walks through the door and his father asked him
Speaker 3: what was wrong. Barlett then told him they and then
Speaker 3: later sketches what he saw, and then the creature makes
Speaker 3: another appearance same night. So this time is around midnight.
Speaker 3: So the first one was ten twenty two. Okay, this
Speaker 3: one's around midnight. Okay, so have a couple hour gap,
Speaker 3: about an hour and a half.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, fifteen year old John Baxter leaves his girlfriend his
Speaker 3: girlfriend's house, Kathy Cronin, on the south end of Miller's
Speaker 3: High Road. Okay, I'm here for this anyway. Baxter starts
Speaker 3: walking up his street on his way home. Half an
Speaker 3: hour later, after he walked about a mile, he observed
Speaker 3: someone approaching him. Because the figure was short, Baxter assumed
Speaker 3: it was an acquaintance of his MG Bucherd, who lives
Speaker 3: on the street.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so like a friend, neighbor, what have you?
Speaker 3: John calls out, MG is at you. He got no response,
Speaker 3: but Baxter and the figure continued to approach each other
Speaker 3: until finally the latter stops. The figure stopped, Baxter halts
Speaker 3: as well and say says who is that? The sky
Speaker 3: is dark and overcast and he can only see a
Speaker 3: shadowy form. Trying to get a better look, Baxter took
Speaker 3: one step forward and the figure scurries off to the left,
Speaker 3: running down a shallow wooded gully and up the opposite bank.
Speaker 3: As the figure runs, Baxter hears its footsteps on dry leaves.
Speaker 3: He follows the figure down the slope. Okay, that is
Speaker 3: a it is nighttime, I get it, seventy seven, but sir,
Speaker 3: it is nighttime. You are a child.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but again, children don't have the same reservations about
Speaker 1: danger as.
Speaker 3: Adults do, and especially in that time period.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and at this point, he still think this is
Speaker 1: a neighbor or a friend of his, and he wants
Speaker 1: to make sure they're okay. It is interesting too, I
Speaker 1: get he said it was overcast, you know, but still
Speaker 1: it passed as a human being.
Speaker 3: Yeah, with how oblong it's freakin' head is. You would
Speaker 3: think you would think even through shadowy like presence, you
Speaker 3: would be able to know that it has a watermelon.
Speaker 1: And if you have a head like a bowling ball,
Speaker 1: I can see you in like silent hill level fog
Speaker 1: like definitively so. But again, but we have you know
Speaker 1: at this point this witness does not see glowing eyes,
Speaker 1: so the eyes itself don't glow. We can go back
Speaker 1: to a reflection or refraction of light bending around the
Speaker 1: iris of the eye.
Speaker 3: Yeah. He follows the figure down the slope and then
Speaker 3: stops and looks across the gully. There he sees a
Speaker 3: creature standing in a silhouette about thirty feet away, its
Speaker 3: feet molded around the top of a rock several feet
Speaker 3: from a tree. So I'm assuming like it looks.
Speaker 4: Like like the toes are curling around the rock.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so instead of being flat footed, which would be
Speaker 3: normal with a slight curve, its feet just completely like
Speaker 3: embrace the rock.
Speaker 1: Back to the bowling ball. We have hands like you
Speaker 1: put your hand in a bowling ball.
Speaker 3: Well, I think more like a monkey.
Speaker 1: I like the bowling ball.
Speaker 4: But yes, okay, well it's not hanging on the rock
Speaker 4: by its tail.
Speaker 3: Okay, but a monkey has hands for feet.
Speaker 4: Basically, you've never seen one ever.
Speaker 3: I actually, why are you gaslighting me?
Speaker 1: Okay, please continue. We're not gonna get into this right now.
Speaker 3: The horses in North carolina'll over.
Speaker 1: Have monkeys here, so please continue.
Speaker 3: Okay. So the creature's body reminds reminded Baxters of a
Speaker 3: monkey's see see.
Speaker 1: Okay, you read this beforehand.
Speaker 3: These are okay, well I didn't actually read that.
Speaker 1: These are not original thoughts, but please continue.
Speaker 3: Except for the dark figure eight shaped head, figure eight
Speaker 3: shaped head. Instead of a watermelon, they're saying, it's an
Speaker 3: oblong shape with a slight curve around like the jaw.
Speaker 1: Someone kicked this thing in the fucking head and it's
Speaker 1: heav real soft roundhouse Kike, No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1: They said it was like a baby, something about a
Speaker 1: baby babies head have sauce spots.
Speaker 3: Just saying that's so messed up.
Speaker 1: I know, but it's accurate. You're the one that brought
Speaker 1: you knew what was going to happen. You brought me
Speaker 1: the story.
Speaker 3: The eyes, two lighter spots in the middle of the
Speaker 3: head are looking straight at Baxter, who after a few minutes,
Speaker 3: begins to feel uneasy. Realizing he has never seen such
Speaker 3: a creature before and fearing what it might do next,
Speaker 3: he backs away carefully up the slope, heart pounding. He
Speaker 3: then walks very fast down the road to the intersection
Speaker 3: on Farm Street. There's a couple passing in a car,
Speaker 3: pick them up and then drive them home. The next day,
Speaker 3: Bartlett tells his close friend Will Tainter about a siding.
Speaker 3: Can you guess what happens next? So this is technically
Speaker 3: two nights, okay, around midnight Tainter is driving to Abby
Speaker 3: Babram or driving with Abby Babram age fifteen home when
Speaker 3: a encounter with the creature takes place.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we have similar age ranges, with the exception
Speaker 1: of the young man who just saw it. He was
Speaker 1: young than everyone by quite.
Speaker 3: A bit, right, No, he was also fifteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, so again we have say, okay.
Speaker 3: So fifteen to eighteen is the age range we have
Speaker 3: right now? Okay, because the couple that picked up are
Speaker 3: person from last night, yeah, yeah, he he They didn't
Speaker 3: see it. The creature was already in the woods by
Speaker 3: the time thirty feet in the woods. The kid had
Speaker 3: walked further down the road. A couple passed by and
Speaker 3: picked him up.
Speaker 1: Gotcha.
Speaker 3: Okay, so all it's only kids who have seen at
Speaker 3: this point. And I'm not saying like young kids. I
Speaker 3: mean they're still they're teenagers. But yeah, so is now
Speaker 3: Will Tanger who is eighteen, and Abby, who is fifteen.
Speaker 3: They're driving a car. He's taken her home when an
Speaker 3: encounter with the creature takes place as they passed along
Speaker 3: Springdale Avenue. Babam spot something off the road. So this
Speaker 3: this is Abby, the fifteen year old, spot something in
Speaker 3: the headlights on the left side of the road. That's something.
Speaker 3: Is a creature crouched on all fours and facing the car.
Speaker 3: Its body is thin and monkey like, but its head
Speaker 3: is large and oblong, with no nose, ears, or mouth.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we do kind of have a slight slight
Speaker 1: change in description here.
Speaker 3: Then it is a slight change that they never intentionally
Speaker 3: the first two encounters never really talked about the other features.
Speaker 3: I'm assuming like, when you see a creature that has
Speaker 3: eyes that big, it's kind of hyptonic, so you might
Speaker 3: not even notice that it doesn't.
Speaker 1: Have Yeah, well that and he was driving he saw
Speaker 1: it from far away. The other kid didn't get a
Speaker 1: good look at.
Speaker 3: It, cause not the man, the woman, the girl is
Speaker 3: the one who saw.
Speaker 2: Me, you know.
Speaker 1: But in the first story, oh yeah, driving. He was driving,
Speaker 1: so he probably didn't get a good look. Okay, because
Speaker 1: again I'm really trying to be prode over deemon, I
Speaker 1: might be heading back to the other side.
Speaker 3: The creature is hairless and its skin was tan or
Speaker 3: beige in color. The facial area around the eyes was lighter,
Speaker 3: and its eyes glowed green. Will Abby insists that this
Speaker 3: is the case, even after investigators had told her that
Speaker 3: the first encounter had said the eyes were orange. So again,
Speaker 3: that's the when I read that, the first thing I
Speaker 3: thought of is I can see the same deer if
Speaker 3: I drive back and forth on a road, but from
Speaker 3: one direction. Based on the angle, sometimes it looks orange,
Speaker 3: sometimes it looks green. I don't really know what that,
Speaker 3: what that reflection in the eyes, and what causes the
Speaker 3: color is, but I know it happens. I don't know
Speaker 3: what the scientific explanation it is for it, though I
Speaker 3: understand Tainter sees the creature only momentarily after, so will
Speaker 3: the eighteen year old who's driving then sees it after
Speaker 3: Abby and has the impression that some of something with
Speaker 3: a large head and a tam body. He doesn't know
Speaker 3: what it is, but he does know it's not a dog.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: Frightened, Abby urges Will to speed up so they can
Speaker 3: get away. Will claims that only after they leave the
Speaker 3: scene does he recall the original siding his friend Baxter,
Speaker 3: siding his own had been so brief and unspectacular that
Speaker 3: he probably would have thought little of it if Abby
Speaker 3: had not been with him. He asked her to describe
Speaker 3: the figure, deliberately phrasing misleading questions about aspect of the
Speaker 3: creature's appearance he knew not to be true based.
Speaker 1: On his friend's signing, Okay, that's actually really smart.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's honestly something you should do, not saying, like,
Speaker 3: if you have an encounter with somebody and you want
Speaker 3: to get to the bottom of it, that's not a
Speaker 3: bad idea. That's what investigators do to get like the
Speaker 3: true story. Like if they're multiple witnesses, they won't try
Speaker 3: to ask misleading questions to see if you are convinced
Speaker 3: that what you had saw happened that way, or that
Speaker 3: there might be some wiggle room and your impression impression
Speaker 3: impressionalism is.
Speaker 1: That the word. I have no idea.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, they test the waters because memory can be
Speaker 3: a very fickle thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean the human brain and in general
Speaker 1: can't be trusted, especially in her times of duress. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So he asked her the questions in order to check
Speaker 3: her story, which he had not told her, like that
Speaker 3: that Barlett had went through, that Baxter had went through,
Speaker 3: that Abby stuck her story. Though, even after asking those questions,
Speaker 3: the only discernible difference was again the color of the eyes.
Speaker 3: She swore up and down that they were green. They
Speaker 3: glowed green. So and then after this you had a
Speaker 3: couple of pretty prominent euphyological researchers come in to kind
Speaker 3: of try to get to the bottom of the Dover
Speaker 3: demon story, and it just never happened again. It literally
Speaker 3: like after those two experience or two nights, those three experiences,
Speaker 3: no one ever saw this creature again, even to this day.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now I can understand the comparison between this and
Speaker 1: the Kelly case because again, you know, those goblins came
Speaker 1: and went, I mean literally here one minute, gone the next.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting to me. I also wonder seventy seven
Speaker 1: Lourene Coleman probably would have been up there. I've been
Speaker 1: a look at this. I bet Lauren Coleman probably had
Speaker 1: something to do with this case. Just give him where
Speaker 1: it took place one and two. This is around his
Speaker 1: time period of in the field investigation pre move on,
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. History might be a bit money there,
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure this is like his area.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, one of the explanations that was given, besides
Speaker 3: the connection to humanoid creatures and goblin like creatures in
Speaker 3: North America, is they actually tried to attribute this to
Speaker 3: Native American more and one of the things that they
Speaker 3: I've seen pretty frequently regurgitated in the articles is that
Speaker 3: this creature could be connected to a Native American lore
Speaker 3: from the uh may make weshy or may make WESSI,
Speaker 3: which is it's basically a water spirit, which I haven't
Speaker 3: checked the maps. I don't know if there's like free
Speaker 3: flowing water near where this encounter was. I think that'd
Speaker 3: probably be pretty good to know it happened in Dover,
Speaker 3: mass I could never say it massive Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: If there we go, we sounded it out.
Speaker 3: We use our words, not massive. Not massive to tips.
Speaker 1: Nope, definitely not.
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's where it happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I'd have to look at a map.
Speaker 1: I don't like large bodies of water or like major
Speaker 1: even rivers near I could be wrong. I mean then
Speaker 1: near the Bridgewater Triangles in that area, and that had
Speaker 1: water in the story.
Speaker 3: I mean that's water everywhere. We would just have to
Speaker 3: look at a map and see. So if one of
Speaker 3: you guys knows and has looked at the map, let
Speaker 3: us know in the Facebook group or in the comments.
Speaker 1: Let us know, and any Massachusetts Massachusetts, yea, let us know.
Speaker 3: Okay, So let's go back to talking about the mayme agwashi,
Speaker 3: which is spelled m a or me e me e
Speaker 3: g w e s I. Now that is the core name.
Speaker 3: I want to say, the common name where the name
Speaker 3: that has been used inside it and a lot of
Speaker 3: these articles and was also used in the book that
Speaker 3: a lot of these articles got the connection from is
Speaker 3: man neaeh, which is m A n n e g
Speaker 3: I s h. I gotcha, okay, And from what I
Speaker 3: could tell, the connection to this Native American lore came
Speaker 3: from one singular book published in nineteen ninety seven by
Speaker 3: I think it was carl A Shover scchuv Er, And
Speaker 3: unfortunately I didn't have time to get a copy before
Speaker 3: this episode because I really want to see what he
Speaker 3: said about it. But the sightings of these articles, like
Speaker 3: I said, have just been circulating and regurgitating the same connection.
Speaker 3: So I wanted to get into the root of it.
Speaker 3: The reason being is after I read the lore of
Speaker 3: these creatures, it doesn't sound like it matches yeah at all.
Speaker 3: And so let me get into it and you'll kind
Speaker 3: of see why.
Speaker 1: Yeah. This kind of reminds you of like another Curse
Speaker 1: of Chief Cornstock situation where it was in a school
Speaker 1: play one time and then repeated thirty yeah, was.
Speaker 3: Over countless times. Yeah. So one of the codenames for
Speaker 3: this is the little people or river spirits. They're small
Speaker 3: riverbank dwelling water spirits. They're generally benign creatures, but sometimes
Speaker 3: they blow canoes astray or steal things when they are
Speaker 3: not shown proper respect, and some traditions that may magushi
Speaker 3: can be seen only by children and medicine people that
Speaker 3: could explain the okay, yes, okay, so that is a
Speaker 3: good connection.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: However, and others they appear to anyone and may help
Speaker 3: humans who give them tobacco and other gifts. Most often,
Speaker 3: they are described as being child size but hairy, with
Speaker 3: a large head and a strange voice that sounds like
Speaker 3: the whine of a dragonfly.
Speaker 1: Weird, okay, a human's obsession with tobacco, I'll never get that.
Speaker 3: The cree and anew describe them as having narrow faces,
Speaker 3: and some storytellers have said that they have no noses.
Speaker 3: It is sometimes said that they were originally created from
Speaker 3: the bark of trees. They are also said to carve
Speaker 3: symbols on rocks and sometimes carves small canoes for themselves
Speaker 3: out of stone. Some people believe their name comes from
Speaker 3: the word uh, from the core word mimi me e,
Speaker 3: m i I, or harry, and they're usually described as
Speaker 3: having hairy faces and bodies. Other people believe that their
Speaker 3: name is related to the word butterfly MIMEGOI E m
Speaker 3: E n g w A A. So from what I
Speaker 3: can see, like the hairy, that's what I can't get past,
Speaker 3: because that's such a stark difference. And if we're talking bigfoots,
Speaker 3: and if we're talking like the difference between a skunk
Speaker 3: ape and the Ohio grassman. On paper, they don't have
Speaker 3: that many differences, but there are stark differences, like and
Speaker 3: one of those is the texture of either the hair
Speaker 3: or their skin or their smell. And with Bigfoot, that
Speaker 3: is enough to differentiate between the two. And in cryptos
Speaker 3: zoology it's enough to say, Okay, this one would be
Speaker 3: class about as skuncape, this would be a higher grassman,
Speaker 3: and it goes beyond location. So I have a very
Speaker 3: hard time, especially when it comes to Native American folklore,
Speaker 3: being able to just say yes, even though it's not hairy, Yes,
Speaker 3: it's a mae magwashi. Yeah, Like to me, like, it
Speaker 3: just feels a little sloppy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels a little lazy. It feels like, you know,
Speaker 1: because we had a few you know, sort of a
Speaker 1: similarity with the body shape. We mentioned rocks. The dover
Speaker 1: Demon had rocks, and we were kind of reaching. It
Speaker 1: really seems like someone like really wanted to say, oh,
Speaker 1: here's the historical accuracy. Ye, here's historical data evidence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I don't I don't know about that. That feels
Speaker 1: like a bit of a stretch.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's behaved are like sure, it was seemingly benevolent,
Speaker 3: But the creatures that were talked about in this Native
Speaker 3: American folklore are more trickster s, like you're in our
Speaker 3: territory and you didn't pay us respects. So and these
Speaker 3: kids didn't pay their respects. Like these kids were either
Speaker 3: scared shitless and ran, or they like try to walk
Speaker 3: into their turf and then ran, like the kid who
Speaker 3: went down the bank.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again like the Native American story. Again, I
Speaker 1: am speaking about this with only the knowledge you just
Speaker 1: gave me, so there could be way more than I'm
Speaker 1: unaware of. But similar to other Native American legends and
Speaker 1: Lord that we've discussed on the show, they seem to
Speaker 1: cohabitate with the locals. This doesn't seem to coha. This
Speaker 1: seems like, oh, something saw me. I'm terrified. I need
Speaker 1: to get away from this thing as soon as humanly possible. Now,
Speaker 1: Like it could be like a little nicky situation where
Speaker 1: he comes out of hell, he sees the car coming,
Speaker 1: he waves at the car, gets hit by the car
Speaker 1: and dies right away. Maybe it's like I hate I
Speaker 1: literally don't know what this thing is, so it's running
Speaker 1: from them. But again, these creatures you're describing seem like,
Speaker 1: okay they.
Speaker 3: Are, Yeah, they exist in that area and continuously exists. Yes,
Speaker 3: because because the lore from Native American histories isn't just
Speaker 3: a one time event. Sure, I'm sure if you went
Speaker 3: back and looked at their histories and talked to elders,
Speaker 3: they would tell you about plenty of one time events.
Speaker 3: But when it comes to these creatures and these spirits,
Speaker 3: they like you said, cohabitate with them and they exist
Speaker 3: one and the same. Like it's it doesn't make sense
Speaker 3: that this thing would just pop in, it to existence
Speaker 3: and then right back out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot of you know, Native American
Speaker 1: legends and the lord there that's also attached to a
Speaker 1: lesson being learned. You know, respect your environment, respect people,
Speaker 1: and you know travelers in this instance, you know, treat
Speaker 1: them with respect, give them a gift barter, everyone goes
Speaker 1: along their way. Again, you could peel back the layers
Speaker 1: futures too. And I know we discussed this, we did
Speaker 1: the Portlock Bigfoot, and I think there's been a few
Speaker 1: others in the River mermaids or something. I know we've
Speaker 1: had this discussion before.
Speaker 3: So yeah, those were another version of water spirits.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So again I don't see a lesson here from
Speaker 1: the Dover deal, Like what's that like, don't look in
Speaker 1: the woods ever or else something so you're driving or all,
Speaker 1: something will run from you. Like there's no lesson to
Speaker 1: be learned here. And again I feel like this is
Speaker 1: just sloppy investigative working. Again, I'm not taking a knock
Speaker 1: at the sky. I kind of him taking a knock.
Speaker 3: At this guy. Well, we have to be careful because
Speaker 3: again we don't have the book. Yeah, it is something
Speaker 3: I am going to try and get and look into
Speaker 3: because I am just genuinely curious how he came to
Speaker 3: that conclusion. But the way, it's also a knock against
Speaker 3: some of these articles that have just been regurgitating.
Speaker 4: This information consistently, and that's a huge problem.
Speaker 3: Is especially with Native American folklore, like we see this
Speaker 3: time and time again when it comes to cryptozoology, especially
Speaker 3: like I just feel like people are actually double checking
Speaker 3: their sources or even questioning where where that connection comes from,
Speaker 3: because that's when I see someone connect it to Native
Speaker 3: American folklore. I want the original account, unbiased account from
Speaker 3: their history, from their elders. I want to know how
Speaker 3: they feel about this thing before it was experienced in
Speaker 3: modern times.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now the counter to that, and I have heard
Speaker 1: people discuss this several times over that because they are
Speaker 1: so secretive, because they keep things within their know, within
Speaker 1: their communities, within on the reservations or what have you,
Speaker 1: you're less likely to hear those stories direct from the
Speaker 1: horse's mouth here. Yeah, and that's that's the counter. Does
Speaker 1: that make it correct? No, it doesn't make that correct
Speaker 1: at all. It doesn't mean that you can just you know,
Speaker 1: pull straws and just make you know, connections that might
Speaker 1: not be there because it happens to fit a close
Speaker 1: geographical location.
Speaker 3: Have you asked?
Speaker 1: That?
Speaker 3: Is one thing I want to implore if you write articles,
Speaker 3: if you are speaking on topics like this, I know
Speaker 3: we kind of like got super sidetracked, but have you
Speaker 3: even tried to ask?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean you're asking the right question of the
Speaker 1: wrong person, because usually I would like to think I
Speaker 1: try and follow up to the source of at all possible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, if.
Speaker 3: It's something to be cautious about and conscious about as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I can definitely say that I do see
Speaker 1: some comparisons here with the Kelly story. I see. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of overlap here with a bunch of
Speaker 1: different stories. What I would really like to know is
Speaker 1: were the Men in Black involved at all? At you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. But anyway, what are your thoughts
Speaker 1: on the Dover Demon.
Speaker 3: I think it's a very interesting case. I think it's
Speaker 3: always interesting to see the obsession for these one time
Speaker 3: events because you know, with Mothman it was kind of similar,
Speaker 3: but it has supposedly happened since then. Yeah, and that
Speaker 3: there were continuous sightings for months in Point Bat in
Speaker 3: the surrounding areas. So a one and done one night
Speaker 3: stand with the cryptid.
Speaker 1: Look, I'm not saying it just.
Speaker 3: Sounds like a really bad romance.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it,
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's that's crazy.
Speaker 1: With that being said, I have got to get back
Speaker 1: to final Fantasy. I have nothing real else to add
Speaker 1: unless you do. I do not well. With that being said,
Speaker 1: then I think we're not to add the Dover Demon,
Speaker 1: who wasn't really a demon to our never ending but
Speaker 1: are always growing.
Speaker 3: Tails from the dark.
Speaker 1: They are thought about.
Speaker 2: The general is angling of the complex starting something. Sometimes
Speaker 2: the first flight will
Speaker 1: Be seeing everyone A digital gagical fight