WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.640 We're public company, and you know, we have thousands of shelders, 2 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:05.080 and when we set out notices and stuff, it takes forever, 3 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:07.679 and like in our case, we even have to you know, 4 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:10.560 freaking print stuff. So it would just bankrupt us to 5 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:12.480 simply to send paper out to the world, right because 6 00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:15.960 we're still stuck in them. But to tokenization, you can 7 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:19.320 basically sort of create a shareholder register that basically could 8 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:21.280 extend to billions of people. 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Welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. 30 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:38.879 I'm your host, Tony Edward, and joining me today is 31 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:43.159 Yatsu who's the co founder and chairman of Anamoga Brands yacht. 32 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:44.400 It is great to have you on. 33 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:46.280 Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure to 34 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:46.879 be on your show. 35 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:50.519 Yeah, as I was saying before in the recording, I've 36 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:54.000 been following Animoga and yourself for many years and I've 37 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:56.640 wanted to interview you for a very long time. So 38 00:01:56.680 --> 00:01:59.640 it's really great to have you. I'm very excited, and 39 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.040 I love to start with your background before we talk 40 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.760 all things web three. Where are you from, where'd you 41 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:06.640 grow up? And how did you get into technology? 42 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:11.479 Yeah? So I mean thank you again. And you know, 43 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:15.120 I grew up in Austria and Vienna, so I guess 44 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:16.840 in some ways I'm a little bit of an interesting 45 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:19.960 product of the of that day and time, just because 46 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:23.479 I was born in the seventies. So that probably makes me, 47 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:26.199 particularly in the crypto space, one of the slightly older 48 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:28.439 people in the room. That isn't to say we have 49 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:32.400 people from from from that generation. And I grew up 50 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:36.199 in Vienna studying music because my parents were musicians, and 51 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:38.719 I actually have a degree in music. That's actually what 52 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:42.000 I first started doing. And you know, I think it 53 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:44.360 wasn't because I wanted to study music. It was it 54 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.280 was because in particular that's what my mom knew how 55 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:50.280 to do. And it's a classic immigrant story, which is 56 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.000 kind of like, well, you know, you you know, originally 57 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:56.960 from from well actually Tawan and China, so moving to 58 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:59.520 a place like Austria in her case because she wanted 59 00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:03.000 to study music, but also in a way to escape 60 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:04.879 what was going on in China. You have to remember 61 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.319 that in the seventies, China was not a great place 62 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:13.400 to be cultural revolution, conflict between what's going on, you know, 63 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:17.599 between really Taiwan and China, and to some degree Hong Kong. 64 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:21.360 In fact, what interesting story is that my mom's family 65 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.240 sort of after the culture sort of after the Civil 66 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:27.159 War which was in sort of which ended in forty nine, 67 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:31.840 they were moving sort of not originally to Taiwan, but 68 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:36.560 actually living in Hong Kong, and my great grandfather had 69 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.759 to sort of evade several assassination attempts at the time 70 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:43.960 because he held a certain type of political office in 71 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:47.560 China at the time. Well no longer then because at 72 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:49.080 the end of the war, so they had to move 73 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:51.360 to Taiwan for instance, as a family, right, So that's 74 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.080 that was kind of the era that people that my 75 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.439 mom grew up in, to an extension, my father as well, 76 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:01.199 and so you know, this was a generation people who 77 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.919 never thought they'd go back to China, right, and therefore 78 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:09.039 they trained their children also to kind of sort of 79 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:12.080 never go there. And there's almost like an erasing of 80 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:14.479 your Chinese culture because it was kind of a bad thing. 81 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.000 And we see this same type of cultural sort of 82 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:21.600 sort of I guess changes for immigrant stories all over 83 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.160 the world, maybe with different cultures, whether you're you know, 84 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:28.079 from an African nation or maybe Middle Eastern country that 85 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:30.560 has gone through a similar situation. You know, they don't 86 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:33.800 try to assimilate and maintain their culture as much. They 87 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:35.720 try to sort of integrate with that local culture. So, 88 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:38.439 you know, we spoke German at home. German is my 89 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.240 mother tongue, for instance. You know, she really, you know, 90 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:44.519 she really tried to sort of integrate me into local 91 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:49.079 culture as much as she could. And Europe was also 92 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:52.879 an interesting time because it was split really between East 93 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:55.279 and West Europe. This is the other thing that maybe 94 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:58.000 today's generation might not fully appreciate. So I grew up 95 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.959 at a time where communism was literally around the border. 96 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:03.000 You know, Vienna was at the edge of that. It 97 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:06.279 was literally the outer edge, you know, because bordering Hungary, 98 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:08.199 and then of course there's you know, what used to 99 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:12.720 be Czechoslovakia by now sort of split up, and And 100 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.399 and Poland, and these were all communist countries. And my 101 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:17.480 mom used to work at the eastern side of Berlin 102 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.959 later on her career, which meant that to visit her, 103 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.920 I would cross literally across the border through checkpoint Charlie's 104 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:27.720 Child and I would basically see my mom, and you know, 105 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.759 that was fine, but you know, you'd literally cross into 106 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:34.319 It's like going from you know, a western democratic society 107 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:36.279 in the west side of Berlin and then moving to 108 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:38.319 the eastern side, which is like a scene out in 109 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:42.839 nineteen eighty four. I mean, it's hard to describe that 110 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:46.120 because today you might feel this experience going into either 111 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:48.519 horror horror scene set or some kind of you know, 112 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:50.839 like like like Disney said, like you would go in 113 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:55.600 and sort of experience something completely wild and different, and 114 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.399 here that was actually reality. That was That was how life, 115 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:01.160 like a sort of life is like literally like where 116 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:04.680 food was scarce. You know, you had like supermarkets where 117 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:08.199 you know, it was wide and you would have literally 118 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:12.040 can spread apart roughly half a meter to a meter, 119 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:14.759 so the food would be distributed around because you didn't 120 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.600 have enough food. Like you know that That's how wild 121 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:22.199 it was. Anyway, sort of going on a bit of 122 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:24.319 often a tangent, but I would say that that background 123 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:26.879 shaped me a lot in terms of thinking about I 124 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:31.120 guess a little bit about society, you know, capitalism, culture, socialism, 125 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:35.040 all that type of stuff, and you know which kind 126 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:38.319 of I think to some extent affected my thinking, especially 127 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:41.160 today around Web three and the meaning behind it all. 128 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.279 But the way I got into technology was I wasn't 129 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.240 really a great musician. I was actually pretty bad compared 130 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:50.800 to my peers, because you know, with music, it's one 131 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.279 of those things where when you have talent, you can 132 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.759 really really tell second athlete, sorry, you can just run faster. 133 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:01.879 You know, there's there's no no kind of equal opportunity. Okay, 134 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.959 you're not as tall, so let's give you better shoes. 135 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.480 That type of stuff doesn't happen in sports. It doesn't 136 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.839 happen in music either, So you know, I had to 137 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:14.600 work ten times harder than all my fellow students sort 138 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:17.839 of colleagues, who were just simply more gifted, or they 139 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:20.399 had better physical attributes, like if we played piano, having 140 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:25.199 longer fingers helps. Okay, it's just biology, right, And so 141 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:30.160 you know, I did composition, and in order to give 142 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:33.519 me an edge in composition, I used a computer. And 143 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.600 you have to understand back in the eighties at that point, 144 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.680 you know, the computer was really the atarist that I 145 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.399 was using at a midiport. So I was basically able 146 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:46.360 to play music that would then show up on the 147 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:49.959 screen or basically you know, I would write the software 148 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:52.519 that enable that and then I can edit that, whereas 149 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:55.680 the old way of doing it was literally sort of 150 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.879 pen and paper, okay, And so there's a kind of 151 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:03.240 a disconnect, but that's what people would do, and so 152 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:07.319 so that was quite helpful for me. My teacher was 153 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:11.120 absolutely not impressed because this was the time when calculators 154 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.519 were banned in class Can you imagine asking a computer 155 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:15.720 to help you. It's kind of like the debate we're 156 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:18.040 having to day a little bit with AI. But right like, 157 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:20.480 I'm using AI in classroom? Is it okay? So not okay? 158 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.279 Obviously I'm a generally positive proponent of it, but it's 159 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:27.560 one of those things where you know, it was really 160 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:29.839 sort of it wasn't disruptive because it wasn't scaling. It 161 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:31.800 was just more like I was like the weird or 162 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:34.720 bad student. But the software was uploaded on this pre 163 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:39.200 internet service called computer, and there I met a community 164 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:41.159 of people and it starts to sound all familiar, like 165 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.759 from you know, community people. And they didn't really care 166 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.639 where it was from, how old it was, because it 167 00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:53.120 was basically a teen and you know, frankly what nationality 168 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:55.759 I was from, it didn't matter. I just wrote software 169 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.960 that they appreciated. And so that the aha moment was, 170 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:01.919 you know, when people send me money. Now, the way 171 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.679 you send money in that era wasn't. It wasn't like 172 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:08.360 a PayPal or some kind of digital money that didn't exist. 173 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.240 They literally sent me checks in the mail, and so 174 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:15.639 you would open your post office and you'd literally see 175 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.399 people write you some kind of check. And I remember 176 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.639 this was like twenty five years dollars. I was like, 177 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:23.840 oh wow, because and back then the idea wasn't a 178 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.320 subscription for people who are writing software, you know, sort 179 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:29.159 of what we called shareware, which is kind of a 180 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:32.159 category of public domain. It's like, if you like the software, 181 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:34.879 you know, send some money to this address if you 182 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:38.360 appreciate it. And I didn't do it because I know 183 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:41.080 expected anyone to send me money. It's kind of bragging rights. 184 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:42.840 It's like if you write software and you put shareware, 185 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:45.360 you just do that, right, Like today, nobody puts their 186 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:47.639 address by the way, you know, they put in the 187 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:50.080 share and they put their sort of a sort of 188 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:55.200 contributions online, right, But back then was totally normal. Anyway 189 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:57.519 people started sending me money, and you know, twenty five 190 00:09:57.559 --> 00:10:00.480 years dollars back in the day was a lot money. 191 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:02.759 So that was what I think. But also too I 192 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.320 didn't have a bank account because it was a kid, right, 193 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:08.960 So that experience also taught me about how to open 194 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:11.399 a bank account and how do I cash in basically 195 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:14.720 check that's in dollars. Went back then the Austria wasn't 196 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:16.639 even part of the EU, or the EU wasn't even 197 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:19.559 created back then, it was it was the shilling, So 198 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:23.200 it was like a weird thing, and it catapulted me 199 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:26.279 in sort of into this era of sort of you know, 200 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:29.639 digital communities and an early early version of I guess 201 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:32.440 digital commerce, which then led to a job at a 202 00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:36.600 Tari because Atari appreciated the software I was writing and 203 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:38.159 asked for me to come in and say, hey, we 204 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.200 like what you're doing. It might be an opportunity. And 205 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:42.000 I show up and they're like, how old are you? 206 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:46.039 But it didn't matter. I still got the job. And 207 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.480 I think this parallel is true for every technological innovation cycle, 208 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:53.919 at least for opportunities for young people. For instance, if 209 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:57.080 you're even today, if you're good at what you do 210 00:10:57.279 --> 00:10:59.720 in crypto and web three, if you can program well, 211 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:02.440 it doesn't matter how old you are to be eighteen 212 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:05.399 nineteen twenty, you don't need a university degree. If you're good, 213 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:07.960 you're hired. You get paid a lot of money for it, right. 214 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:10.000 And we saw this in the early days of the web. 215 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.279 To build a website doesn't matter how old you are. 216 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.279 I mean, we used to pay a million dollars for websites, 217 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:18.000 can you imagine, right? Or if you're doing mobile you 218 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:20.960 know mobile apps right, if you know, only mobile apps 219 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:23.840 during the era of smartphone growth, didn't matter how you 220 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:26.480 were or where you're from. You're hired. You do a job. 221 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:28.600 Didn't matter if you're in the Philippines or whether you're 222 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:30.480 in Taiwan, or whether you're in you know, in the 223 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:32.679 Middle East. You know, you didn't have to have a 224 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.240 degree in some kind of great local university. You were 225 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:39.200 just given the opportunity. And I think that was really 226 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:43.320 attractive and that really drew me into sort of the space. 227 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.679 And then because of Atari, I went to the US. 228 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.120 They went under that we created a startup that eventually 229 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:56.320 led to us doing a business around Silicon Graphics, which 230 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.759 is basically SGI for those who might remember what that is. 231 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.399 All the great movies and special effects. It was sort 232 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:07.759 of produced with SGI machines if you industrial light and 233 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:10.960 magic sort of gives you any kind of sort of reference. 234 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:16.519 And we were working in a I guess three metaverse 235 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.759 type of product category you could call it, which is 236 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:24.279 called VRML. And so VRML was essentially the VR version 237 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.039 of what HTML was at the time. It stood for 238 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:30.480 Virtual Reality Markup Language, so literally HTML, except it was 239 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:34.320 a it was a virtual reality version, which sort of 240 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:38.000 catapulted us into that particular space. And that led me 241 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:41.759 to go basically from from you know, the US to 242 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:44.960 Asia and I started one of the Asia's very first 243 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:49.279 online sort of ISPs caulled Hong Kong Online and anyway, 244 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:50.840 I mean, I could go on, but that was kind 245 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:54.240 of the initial initial period of my life. At that point, 246 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.200 I was in my early twenties and and that was 247 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:02.399 in the early nineties, so I'm really dating myself now. 248 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.559 That's amazing. Yeah, thank you for sharing that story. It's 249 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.600 it's so fascinating your journey, and even I can relate 250 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:12.120 to a lot of it being an immigrant kid myself. 251 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.759 So that's just so fascinating. And you know, yeah, I 252 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.000 look at you, I look at Mark and Dreasen and 253 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.279 Mike belchie Jeremy Alric, folks who are building in web 254 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:27.200 one point zero. Now are here in Web three. You 255 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:30.159 know what do you look back, do you see any similarities? 256 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.840 Do you still have some fire that building fire in so. 257 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.840 Many so, I mean Mark and d Reason. It's a 258 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:42.360 it's a it's a fascinating topic because I remember when 259 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:46.200 when we first sort of were using browsers, We're using 260 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:49.879 sing called mosaic, right, this was even pre Netscape. Yeah, 261 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.080 and then and and I think what what then happened 262 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:57.159 was is Mark and Reason basically launch Netscape, and that 263 00:13:57.320 --> 00:13:59.519 was really the beginning of you know, at the time 264 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.679 sent the whole sort of portal business and the whole 265 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.919 idea of the website or presence perspective, and from an 266 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.960 attention point point of view, you know, my my, my model. 267 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.759 And I think this is I think why people like 268 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:16.799 marketing recent in particular, look at the Web three and 269 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.320 they sort of and while we're I don't think with 270 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:22.120 the exactly the same age, but we're from let's call 271 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:27.080 it same or similar web generation because he started, you know, 272 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.720 building Netscape, and we're basically you know, building a version 273 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:34.320 of GeoCities back in Asia roughly during around that time, 274 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:36.720 which is called you know, Hong Kong Cyber City, anyway, 275 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:39.960 the point being is that we're in sort of different areas, 276 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.559 but building in some spaces having the same fascination about 277 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:46.440 you know what today we call web one, but back 278 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:48.639 then was just the Internet, right, and we're just using 279 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:53.960 browsers and and and so the fact that he has 280 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.159 this vision around Web three and he sees the future 281 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.320 the way that he does to me is completely natural, right. 282 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:02.039 I think any person who has experienced what we have 283 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:05.799 would basically see Web three as in a way or 284 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.320 sort of almost like going back to the future type 285 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:11.000 of experience. It's like, we see this pattern, and we 286 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.759 see the possibilities, and we see the way that the 287 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:15.759 Internet should have been, because that was a promise of 288 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:19.240 Web one, right, this idea that you know, what, however, 289 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:22.759 was sort of distributed and decentralized was information and the 290 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.120 value and the distribution of that information, which was the 291 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:27.879 kind of power. Right. And you also remember that in 292 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.960 the eighties and prior to that, you know, what was 293 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.759 really powerful was knowledge. Right, So everyone talked about knowledge economies, 294 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:36.720 and everyone talked about you know, like, if I had 295 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:38.639 certain kind of knowledge, would get certain kind of jobs? 296 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.399 And what that is to some extent true, Right, The 297 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.080 most valuable thing today isn't knowledge because that's been commoditized, 298 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.639 you know, because of the Internet. Is actually what knowledge creates, 299 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:51.320 which are network effects inherent, which we see representative of 300 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:54.519 things like AI very very sort of viscerally so, but 301 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.080 even before that, you know what's happening when network effects 302 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.600 and things like Instagram or Facebook, very social networks, or 303 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.519 Amazon or Google or Apple. These are all companies that 304 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.159 have built powerful network effects from our knowledge and information 305 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.360 from the social graphs that essentially we give to them, right, 306 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.080 but they are sort of captured in this web to world. 307 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:16.399 And so we both witnessed this era where this open 308 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:20.840 Internet were really open source and being open was the ethos. 309 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:25.679 The standard somehow became sort of closed and sort of 310 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:30.519 this walled garden in Web two. And so the parallel, 311 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:32.679 I want to sort of give here it and you know, 312 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.919 we take it, took it from slightly different approaches. But 313 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:37.320 the parallel here is when you look at market reasons 314 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:41.039 early days on things like Netscape and sort of what 315 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:43.759 he was doing on building sort of you really sort 316 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:45.720 of a distribution platform with the web. What he was 317 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:50.080 doing was essentially looking at how he can generate value 318 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:54.080 from the attention that is being generated in this new era. Right. 319 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:57.200 And this is also the time when Bill Gates famously said, 320 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:00.639 you know, basically what he talked about sort of content 321 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.599 being king, right, and content being king, because he recognized 322 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:08.680 also that in this era everyone could be a content producer, 323 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:11.799 and it was no longer you know, just just sort 324 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.279 of the distribution or the sort of the large publishers 325 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.359 that had controlled, because everyone could basically become a content 326 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.279 producer because of the web. Right. And again we're talking 327 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:23.920 about these forms of attention, right, It's just you know, 328 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.880 you had a website and you create attention, whether it's 329 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:29.319 a blog or whatever, and then these these forms of 330 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:32.480 attention sort of generate value for them. And that form 331 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:36.119 of value was advertising, right, And that advertising was the 332 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:40.279 proxy for how successful your attention based economy was, whether 333 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:44.079 this is a website or maybe a game. And you know, 334 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:46.599 in Web two, this type of attention was consolidated in 335 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.880 platforms like Instagram. So instead of going into this is 336 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:53.160 my website, dot com or whatever? Right, remember the dot 337 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.920 com era, we went into what's your Instagram handle or 338 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.480 what's your TikTok handle. So we suddenly moved away from 339 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:04.440 being in our own independent, decentralized status into some kind 340 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:08.519 of centralized environment, and then not recognizing that our contribution 341 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:11.559 to this actually enhanced a larger network effect as a whole, 342 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:13.960 which then gave the platforms all this power. And we 343 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.279 see this zeb where now in the Web two world 344 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.000 and then with Web three with tokens, there is essentially 345 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:24.200 the same type of narrative around attention, except now tokens 346 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:27.319 are the representation of that attention, but in an ownership 347 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:31.799 and capitalistic perspective, So that means that value is distributed 348 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:35.200 and descibralized, but attention can now be owned, which wasn't 349 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:40.119 really possible before because of the tokenization, so which means 350 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.480 that you can translate it as well. To the extent 351 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:45.480 that we saw, you know, millions and millions of websites launch, 352 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.400 some big and many small. We're seeing the same thing 353 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:50.079 with tokens. It's going to be you know, millions and 354 00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:53.400 millions of websites, tokens actually already millions, you know, one 355 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.160 hundreds of millions of tokens launch, of which the vast 356 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.160 majority will be small but still meaningful for the businesses involved, 357 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:02.640 and a handful of them will be really really large 358 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.000 and important, but in a much more distributed and decentralized way, 359 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.079 in much way that the early days of the Internet 360 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:09.720 as well the Internet was. And I think we're all 361 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.680 believers that Work three is just the better Internet because 362 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:16.359 we can actually own it and we have mechanisms in 363 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:19.200 which we can sort of compose of building it in 364 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:22.920 the free way, in much the way same way that 365 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.559 open source built the foundations of the early Internet. So 366 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:27.640 I see it as really going back to the real 367 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.519 principles of what the what the sort of free and 368 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.160 open internet was supposed to be. 369 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:35.599 Oh absolutely, you know, and here saying that I thought 370 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:39.079 of you know, you mentioned attention, and then you have 371 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:44.920 network effects metals law, and it seems like historically, I 372 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.640 think you alluded to this. You know, there was religious 373 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:52.920 network effects, government, politician network effects, celebrity network effects. But 374 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:57.359 now an average Joe can create network effects around themselves 375 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.839 through personal branding and the Internet and possibly create a 376 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:05.880 token of maybe tokenizing their business or tokenizing themselves. If 377 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.440 that's the future we're headed in. Do you does that 378 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:10.640 make sense? And do you see that happening where it's 379 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.599 more yeah, you know, more multipaceted on that front. 380 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.839 Yeah, absolutely, So let me just quickly sort of go 381 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:19.400 into sort of a little bit on the topic of 382 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:23.200 tokenization as a whole. So tokenization can manument can can 383 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:25.119 be many things, right, So you can you know, that 384 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:27.200 can be used for our WA's and you can sort 385 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.640 of tokenize real estate or some I don't know, some 386 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.160 some some some some precious art or you know that 387 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.759 that's that's one example, right, And then if you look 388 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:36.920 at stable coins, right, I mean, that's that's one of 389 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.880 the most sort of I guess sort of obvious of 390 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:41.799 our w is in a way that it takes a 391 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:46.279 construct that is from the physical world, right in this 392 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:49.119 case of currency like the dollar, and you basically translate 393 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.519 that very directly into the digital world with as a 394 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.559 stable coin. But the sort of one that's really growing 395 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.599 is this sort of network asset. And so this is 396 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.359 where it's interesting because you know, technology has had a 397 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.279 way in which it opens up new paradigms in which 398 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:09.119 you can do things you can do before. Right, like 399 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.880 before we you know, its idea of digital ownership was 400 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.839 just not possible because actually you know who owned it 401 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:18.400