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<v Speaker 1>Happy Monday, and welcome to the nonprofits this week. I

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<v Speaker 1>am your host Rob, and we also have joining me.

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<v Speaker 1>Is Tracy and aj starting offs off today?

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<v Speaker 2>Though?

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<v Speaker 1>Is Tracy telling us about a recent memo from the

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<v Speaker 1>Office of Personnel Management.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, in what I can only assume is a performative

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<v Speaker 3>stunt to combat non existent anti Christian bias in the

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<v Speaker 3>US government, the current administration's Office of Personnel Management has

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<v Speaker 3>released a five page memo that the director has said

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<v Speaker 3>is aimed at protecting religious expression in the federal workplace,

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<v Speaker 3>a thing which I was unaware was under attack, and

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<v Speaker 3>which wasn't prohibited in the first place. In its simplest form,

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<v Speaker 3>this memo can be seen as pro proselytization, as it

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<v Speaker 3>says very clearly that federal employees are free to attempt

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<v Speaker 3>and convert their coworkers at the workplace. Other ancillary details

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<v Speaker 3>are allowing employees to decorate themselves and their assigned workspaces

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<v Speaker 3>with religious imagery, totems, and texts. Don't fear friends, as

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<v Speaker 3>the memo specifically says that the attempts to convert must

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<v Speaker 3>not be harassing in nature. I just hope that everyone

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<v Speaker 3>can agree on what's harassing and what isn't. This story

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<v Speaker 3>is from The Friendly Atheist by Hem and Meta on

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<v Speaker 3>July twenty eighth, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you, Tracy. So, just from the very end

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<v Speaker 1>of what you have there, let's just hope everyone can

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<v Speaker 1>agree on what's harassing and what isn't. Do you have

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<v Speaker 1>any idea how we can even begin to answer that question,

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<v Speaker 1>because I think it's a good one, and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know what do you think?

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<v Speaker 3>So when I used to work for the Missouri government

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<v Speaker 3>and when I you know, when you have these jobs,

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<v Speaker 3>you go through all these classes to make sure you're

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<v Speaker 3>aware of the policies that the government has for certain

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<v Speaker 3>things and all that. And one of the things we

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<v Speaker 3>really do into was harassment and what does harassment mean?

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<v Speaker 3>Because a lot of people, turns out don't really get it,

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<v Speaker 3>at least here in Missouri among the state Department of

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<v Speaker 3>Corrections and probably across the entire government. Is that there's

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<v Speaker 3>if I remember correctly, it has to be three details

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<v Speaker 3>have to be so in order for it to be harassment,

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<v Speaker 3>it must be repeated unwanted contact. It's a three word thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Of course, you can talk about how the person has

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<v Speaker 3>to be willingly doing it but you know, that's another thing.

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<v Speaker 3>It has to be repeated and unwanted. The problem with

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<v Speaker 3>it being unwanted is somebody doesn't know it's unwanted until

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<v Speaker 3>you tell them, and so that kind of puts the

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<v Speaker 3>onus on you, the victim of harassment, to report it,

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<v Speaker 3>which I do have a lot of empathy for. I

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<v Speaker 3>would not empathy, probably sympathy for. I just feel like

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<v Speaker 3>that's true of every crime that's committed against you, the

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<v Speaker 3>onus is on you to report it. Except for fire.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that if somebody is doing arson, somebody else

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<v Speaker 3>will report it for you. But like a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>crimes that are done against you, that's just how it's

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<v Speaker 3>got to be.

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<v Speaker 1>So the point of this of this memo is that

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<v Speaker 1>it's trying to make clear that people not only are

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<v Speaker 1>allowed to, but possibly maybe even should have the ability

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<v Speaker 1>to proselytize within the workplace, specifically federal places. But as

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<v Speaker 1>you said, harassment requires the person who's being talked to

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<v Speaker 1>to say so, So, how how does this affect power structures?

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<v Speaker 1>Like what happens if my boss is talking to me

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<v Speaker 1>about it a j Do you have any do you

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<v Speaker 1>have any ideas? And like, what do I do if

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<v Speaker 1>my boss is telling me about stuff that is not

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<v Speaker 1>work related and I don't want to hear they're telling

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<v Speaker 1>me about the flying spaghetti Monster. What would I do

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<v Speaker 1>in this case?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know if there's anything you can do.

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<v Speaker 2>And like you said, power structures right there, that's that's

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<v Speaker 2>a big breadth live for me, because people are going

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<v Speaker 2>to feel like they can't pick up to their supervisors

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever leadership is above them talking to them about

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<v Speaker 2>you know, spaghetti monster role on the Closer Goblin or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe they're going to feel like really really uncomfortable first

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<v Speaker 2>of all, and then like like there's nowhere else to go.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you go? Hr? Maybe but they're not gonna

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<v Speaker 2>want to do anything against a supervisor more than likely,

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<v Speaker 2>or I'm like, well, you know history, boss just split

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<v Speaker 2>up with it whatever, So I don't know. Without any

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<v Speaker 2>type of safeguards, these rules are really really treated to handle.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Tracy, you said in the very beginning that you're

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<v Speaker 1>you were unaware that the speech like this was under attack,

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<v Speaker 1>and it already wasn't prohibited. So let me let me

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<v Speaker 1>play Devil's advocate. Isn't it good? Then this memo exists

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<v Speaker 1>so that people can know that they are able to

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<v Speaker 1>engage in something that they were always able to and

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps fearful to have done so in the past.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know. I don't know if it's good. I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's unnecessary. I mean, you can even look at

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<v Speaker 3>older notifications from older administrations to say that this has

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<v Speaker 3>already been talked about, it has already been established. Nineteen

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<v Speaker 3>ninety seven, the administration at that time called for agencies

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<v Speaker 3>not to suppress employees private religious speech in the workplace,

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<v Speaker 3>while leaving unregulated other private employee speech. So like there

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<v Speaker 3>was already a special carve out for this in nineteen

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<v Speaker 3>ninety seven, which I get that was a long time ago.

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<v Speaker 3>I think I have a pretty I was born in

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen ninety seven, so that's my whole life ago. I

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<v Speaker 3>get that that was a while ago for some people.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know when there's already when it's already been

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<v Speaker 3>a thing we've talked about, something we've already cleared up,

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<v Speaker 3>made a special little carve out for. I don't feel

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<v Speaker 3>like this was necessary. I think it's actually a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit harmful because maybe they were uncomfortable doing that for

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<v Speaker 3>good reason. Maybe there was a social stigma against it,

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<v Speaker 3>and maybe there was a social stigma against it for

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<v Speaker 3>good reason. Maybe I'm not saying that was what the

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<v Speaker 3>case was. Maybe in that maybe maybe they're they're coworkers

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<v Speaker 3>will just be thrilled that this is happening, But I

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<v Speaker 3>can't speak to that. It just seems like unnecessary playing around.

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<v Speaker 2>See.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's going to be difficult just because, like

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<v Speaker 1>we've already talked about the harassment thing. How do I

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<v Speaker 1>know when it's harassment? And as you said, it needed

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<v Speaker 1>three things? Uh what was it?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh?

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<v Speaker 3>Repeated? It's three words repeated unwanted contact, repeated unwanted contact, which,

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<v Speaker 3>by the way, I actually really appreciate.

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<v Speaker 1>That you had such a very specific history that allows

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<v Speaker 1>for such a very specific answer. That's nice. But also

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<v Speaker 1>in this like harassment puts the onus on that person,

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<v Speaker 1>which I guess I'm not really sympathetic towards because they

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<v Speaker 1>should It is impossible to know whether it's unwanted until

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<v Speaker 1>they said so, and so they're just gonna have to

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<v Speaker 1>say so. Now that does create a power structure, but

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<v Speaker 1>like a power dynamic problem, but that just is how

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<v Speaker 1>communication works. However, what I thought was interesting in the

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<v Speaker 1>title was that quote Title seven does not cover all beliefs.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, social, political, or economic philosophies and mere personal

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<v Speaker 1>preferences are not religious beliefs within the meaning of the statute.

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<v Speaker 3>This is like what is like what the Clinton administration

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<v Speaker 3>was doing. It's exactly like what the Clinton administration did

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<v Speaker 3>in nineteen seventy seven, which is like, hey, you guys

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<v Speaker 3>get special permission to do religious speech, but we're not

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<v Speaker 3>gonna actually protect like you talking about, Hey, maybe let's

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<v Speaker 3>not do slaves. Why because I just prefer to not

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<v Speaker 3>do slaves. But if I say that my invisible best

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<v Speaker 3>friend doesn't want us doing slaves, that's okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, now it's a godly conversation.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm just going to start If they're only going

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<v Speaker 3>to protect religious speech, I'm just going to start lying

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<v Speaker 3>and saying, my God wants me to do that my

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<v Speaker 3>first held religious belief. Yeah, it is my personally held

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<v Speaker 3>religious belief that the creator of the universe wants us

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<v Speaker 3>to have less taxes on cars, Like I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is a tricky one for us because I

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<v Speaker 1>can totally understand Christians who have a religious belief belief system.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to talk about a thing or maybe any

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<v Speaker 1>other religion. Maybe there's somebody who's Jewish, maybe there's somebody

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<v Speaker 1>who's Muslim. It doesn't matter, literally, any other religion, somebody

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<v Speaker 1>who's Wicca, if you want, if you want to go that, right,

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<v Speaker 1>But like, what about atheists? Would atheistic conversation be included

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<v Speaker 1>within this protection given that it is explicitly non religious,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's content is surely religious?

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<v Speaker 3>Do we out.

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<v Speaker 2>Aja? Probably not? I don't think so now. Honestly, I

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<v Speaker 2>think atheists will probably be one of the ones that

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<v Speaker 2>will benefit the least from these type of rules what

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<v Speaker 2>we going to call them laws? I mean there were

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<v Speaker 2>there even laws before that prevented people from talking about

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<v Speaker 2>religion in the workplace and federal workplaces.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, not that I'm aware of.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the point explicitly allowed.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually yeahs to me what Tracy was mentioning, right, like

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<v Speaker 2>they this was not necessary. They didn't need to put

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<v Speaker 2>these forward because they were already allowed to do that

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<v Speaker 2>just on the basis of that it wasn't forbidden. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>So you can tag politics, you could tag religion or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it socially acceptable maybe not? People try to stay

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<v Speaker 2>away from those topics, But it wasn't like definitely, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like prohibited on the books.

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<v Speaker 3>So that was a lot. It would be explicitly protected

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<v Speaker 3>by the First Amendment to the Constitution, like not for

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<v Speaker 3>any other employer. But if you're employed by the federal government, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>so you can work in McDonald's and they can say

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<v Speaker 3>you're not allowed to talk about religion here, but the

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<v Speaker 3>federal government is not allowed to tell you to tell

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<v Speaker 3>you that.

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<v Speaker 1>So then, AJ, you said it was not required this

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<v Speaker 1>memo galvanizing people to engage in religious discussion, even literally

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<v Speaker 1>quote within the article the correctness of their position. It

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<v Speaker 1>was not required, right, AJ.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I mean I feel like, why did it happen?

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<v Speaker 3>Why do you think it happened.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that in this specific case, they're just trying

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<v Speaker 2>to be really insidious with these type of rules. It

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<v Speaker 2>may sound like a small thing to most people, but

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<v Speaker 2>the reason I think it isn't a small thing is,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, one of the quotes from an article, like

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<v Speaker 2>you said about you know, the correctness he said, employees

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<v Speaker 2>may engage in conversation regarding religious religious topics with fellow employees,

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<v Speaker 2>including attempting to persuade others of the correctness of their

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<v Speaker 2>own religious views. Providing that these efforts are not harassing

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<v Speaker 2>in nature. Then it goes on to say, during a break,

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<v Speaker 2>an employee may engage another and polite discussion of why

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<v Speaker 2>his faith is correct and why the uh the person

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<v Speaker 2>who isn't of the faith should readink his religious beliefs. However,

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<v Speaker 2>if they're none a theerent requests such attempts to stop,

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<v Speaker 2>the employee that brought up the conversation should honor that request.

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<v Speaker 2>And three, personally, I'm sorry, but that's a big no, thanks. Like,

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<v Speaker 2>can you imagine the awkwardness of trying not to engage

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<v Speaker 2>in a religious conversation with somebody that comes to you

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<v Speaker 2>and starts trying to convince you that you know the

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<v Speaker 2>correctness of their views, that ges is king, and like

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<v Speaker 2>they're concerned about your servation and your eternal life, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like walking away from somebody that's ex suddenly

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<v Speaker 2>bursts into prayer right in front of you, trying to

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<v Speaker 2>save your soul, talking in tongues whatever, attempting to remove

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<v Speaker 2>your demons from your body. Like there's a reason why

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<v Speaker 2>public schools and federal spaces are normally be supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>be kept secular, and it should stay that way. So

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<v Speaker 2>to me, it seems really clear that the reason they're

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<v Speaker 2>making this move is not to safeguard freedom of religion,

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<v Speaker 2>but rather a move to be able to spread Christianity,

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<v Speaker 2>or rather Christian nationalism. Let's just call it what it is.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, like I was, actually, you're right up and

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<v Speaker 1>see your very final point. I was going to say, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we understand, especially we here today, we really understand that

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<v Speaker 1>we are the minor already in it. We'll just call it

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<v Speaker 1>religious beliefs for shorthand, even though it's not right. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's kind of the point. So that means that if

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<v Speaker 1>a if a if a Christian wants to engage in

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<v Speaker 1>talking about the correctness literally quote of their religious position.

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<v Speaker 1>We imagine that most people would support this memo because

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<v Speaker 1>they'd be religious and they want to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>do that. I imagine that's going to happen. Therefore, they

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<v Speaker 1>must also support that the Jews are going to come

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<v Speaker 1>talk to them, or the Muslims are going to come

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<v Speaker 1>talk to them about the correctness of their position. They

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<v Speaker 1>will clearly support this.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, I can help but laugh at that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, can you imagine I'm here, I'm here to where

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<v Speaker 2>the Satans, the Satanist gospel to you guys, would you

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<v Speaker 2>like to learn more about Satan?

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<v Speaker 3>So this is this is kind of a problem I

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<v Speaker 3>have with uh with with things like this when they

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<v Speaker 3>start saying things like in the article they talk about

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<v Speaker 3>what was the exact verbiage does not cover all beliefs, social, political,

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<v Speaker 3>or economic philosophies and mere personal preferences are not religious beliefs. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>then what is a religious belief?

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<v Speaker 2>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>Because because here's the thing, Rob, you were saying, you

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<v Speaker 3>said it a couple of times, and I wanted to

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<v Speaker 3>interrupt you, but I didn't because I'm a good little boy.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that interrupt Theists? Atheists aren't religious, and that's not

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<v Speaker 3>necessarily true. You can be an atheist and be religious.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not, but like you know, Buddhists are atheistic, and

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<v Speaker 3>so that that's or at least by and large atheistic,

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<v Speaker 3>and so you could go and talk about Buddhism.

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<v Speaker 1>One of my one of my best friends is a

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<v Speaker 1>secular Jew who's practicing, right, Like, that's actually very common

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<v Speaker 1>within Judaism if.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a So I'm just looking at this, I'm like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>what does it mean to be a religious belief that

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<v Speaker 3>isn't social, political or economic.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm actually glad you said that because I was reading

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<v Speaker 1>it and I didn't want to get like too semantical

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<v Speaker 1>about it, but it was like, Okay, okay, they're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to hate religious thoughts. Awesome, And then it literally says

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<v Speaker 1>it can't be these things. Oh, I had it social

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<v Speaker 1>political or economic philosophies and mere personal preferences. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>imagine the insanity where some guy comes up to you

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<v Speaker 1>and it comes up to like a queer coworker and

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<v Speaker 1>it's like, Hey, I just want to let you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like I think that you are the devil incarnate and

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<v Speaker 1>you will go to Hell, but like I hope to

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<v Speaker 1>see you at the work function on Friday.

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<v Speaker 3>But like, here's the deal. How is that not a

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<v Speaker 3>social philosophy?

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<v Speaker 1>I suspect I deeply wonder if this question even makes

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<v Speaker 1>sense where in America, how religious someone is or isn't

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<v Speaker 1>is so deeply interwoven into our society and our politics

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<v Speaker 1>in general that do we actually like literally us right now?

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<v Speaker 1>AJ Tracy and I have just a skewed idea of

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<v Speaker 1>what it means to be religious, Like, is it actually

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<v Speaker 1>possible to be religious and not have it intersect with

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<v Speaker 1>your society or politicalness, and that just is the norm

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<v Speaker 1>in America. I can't imagine it not intersecting society and

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<v Speaker 1>your politicalness.

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<v Speaker 3>That's that's the thing. I can't think of an example.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't say that that's impossible, but like, I can't

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<v Speaker 3>think of an example where it isn't the case.

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't ever met a hardcore question that wasn't also

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<v Speaker 2>a conservative Republican.

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<v Speaker 3>So well, I a religious person who didn't. I've never

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<v Speaker 3>met a religious person who their social, political, or economic

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<v Speaker 3>philosophies were not in any way involved in their religion. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I kind of don't. Then what's the purpose of the religion.

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<v Speaker 2>I even know someone who went from being both conservative

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<v Speaker 2>and religious to be in non religious liberal Like all

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<v Speaker 2>sort of happened at the same time. So it's like

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<v Speaker 2>they're so connected you can't really separate them anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>More we talk about it, the more I'm convinced that

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<v Speaker 1>they have to be connected, because like even just super

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<v Speaker 1>quick example, whip the bankers, like it's literally in the book.

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<v Speaker 3>Well like even like I don't even want to make

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<v Speaker 3>this like I'm not a conservative by any means, but

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<v Speaker 3>like let's say I'm not even going to try and

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<v Speaker 3>marry religious beliefs and conservatism because they aren't married. You

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<v Speaker 3>can have religious people who are very who are very

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<v Speaker 3>liberal in their beliefs, and they pull that they claim

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<v Speaker 3>at least to pull it from the same place. And

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<v Speaker 3>so I'm like, okay, I don't see how you can

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<v Speaker 3>escape them being touching at the very minimum, Like well, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Mean, reminder, Luther started the schism and this all that

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<v Speaker 1>all started because people who were discussing religious ideas. So

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<v Speaker 1>what happens in the very very real chance of just

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<v Speaker 1>a Christian talks to another Christian, but they're not the

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<v Speaker 1>right sort of Christian.

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<v Speaker 3>That's That's the thing that a lot of people who vote,

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<v Speaker 3>who vote in accordance with these kind of laws and

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<v Speaker 3>who put their hat in with this kind of uh

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<v Speaker 3>posturing on the on the sake of the government, who

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<v Speaker 3>who who support it and give cover to it. What

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<v Speaker 3>they don't understand. And it's something that I've heard many

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<v Speaker 3>many times. I still don't really quite get why people

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<v Speaker 3>don't know this. But they're not fighting for your Christianity.

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<v Speaker 3>They're fighting for their Christianity. And there's so many different

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<v Speaker 3>kinds of Christianity that the chances it's the same one

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<v Speaker 3>are really small, and theirs could be the Christianity where

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<v Speaker 3>they're okay with marrying fourteen year olds. Let's let's let's

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<v Speaker 3>be a little bit more specific and not just endorse

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<v Speaker 3>an entire religion an entire person because they say they

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<v Speaker 3>have the same religion as you.

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<v Speaker 2>I absolutely That's why I clarify earlier hardcore Christians, not

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<v Speaker 2>average Christians.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, we should endorse specific people and not necessarily a religion.

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<v Speaker 1>I can get behind that because it is a necessary

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<v Speaker 1>truth that the vast majority of all criminals are religious,

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<v Speaker 1>simply because there are more religious people than non religious people. Maam, Well,