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Chumpa 43 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:49.000 Casino's home to hundreds oft casino style games you can 44 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:52.879 play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet, 45 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.280 So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to 46 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:58.560 claim you're free Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com 47 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:00.000 and live the Chumba Lite. 48 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.760 Over to NEvAr imedialymbery By lost the terms conditions eighteen plus. 49 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:15.719 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 50 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:18.840 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 51 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:26.159 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 52 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:29.879 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 53 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:34.520 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 54 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:49.599 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good evening for readers of 55 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:53.120 true crime sagas like tinsel Town and Little Demon. In 56 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.199 the City of Light comes a chilling account of a 57 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:59.400 murder that captivated the United States in the nineteen twenties. 58 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.240 Twelve year old Marian Parker was kidnapped from her Los 59 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:09.479 Angeles school by an unknown assailant on December fifteenth, nineteen 60 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:13.960 twenty seven. Her body appeared days later, delivered to her 61 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.199 father by the killer, who fled with the ransom money. 62 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:20.759 When William Hickman was hunted down in charge with the killing, 63 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:24.919 he admitted to all of it in terrifying detail. But 64 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:29.520 that was only the start. Hickman's insanity plea was the 65 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:32.680 first of its kind in the history of California, and 66 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.159 the nature of the crime led to a media frenzy 67 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:39.120 unlike any the country had ever seen. His lawyers argued 68 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:42.360 that their client lived in a fantasy world, inspired by 69 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:46.400 movies and unable to tell right from wrong. The movie 70 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:51.199 industry scrambled to protect its exploding popularity and profits from 71 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:56.960 runous publicity. Outside the court room, the country craved every 72 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.879 awful detail, and the media happily fed that hunger as 73 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:03.919 scandals threatened the proceedings. From the start, the death of 74 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:06.879 a young girl grew into a referendum on the state 75 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:11.840 of America at the birth of mass media culture. David Wilson, 76 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:15.960 a private investigator for over thirty years, captures the maelstrom 77 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:20.279 of Marion Parker's death in vivid detail, from the crime 78 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:25.480 itself to the manhunt that followed, from the unprecedented trial 79 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:29.639 to its aftermath. Wilson draws readers into the birth of 80 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:30.800 the celebrity criminal. 81 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:35.480 The book that we're featuring this evening is Not Just Evil. 82 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:42.040 With my special guest journalist and author David Wilson. Welcome 83 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:43.959 to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing 84 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:44.639 to this interview. 85 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:50.839 David Wilson, Well, thank you for inviting me. I really 86 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:56.600 enjoyed the opportunity to talk about the books and talk 87 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:00.319 about a little bit too about the implications of the case. Okay, 88 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:02.959 leave up to the reader, but for me, there's some 89 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:09.399 personal opinions about the significance of the case and why 90 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.079 it's important to kind of take a look at it 91 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.959 in retrospect and see how it's influenced everything from that 92 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:16.480 point on. 93 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:22.680 It tell our audience how you came to be the 94 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:27.959 writer of this book. Tell us what made you be 95 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:30.439 in a position to want to do this book and 96 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:32.839 that this was important to you. 97 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:37.000 Yes, that's a good question. The case was originally brought 98 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:42.879 to my attention by my brother, who was a film 99 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:47.560 major at USC. He actually went to school but at 100 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:53.439 the same time as Ron Howard, and he fancied himself 101 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:56.759 as a bit of a film historian, and he ran 102 00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:02.360 into this story back then, and we got to talking 103 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:05.720 about it, and he gathered some of the documents have 104 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:08.800 supported and I had written some other books, and he 105 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.720 asked me if i'd be interested that. To be honest 106 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:14.920 with you, I jumped at because it was really a 107 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.959 compelling story done. You'd done a fair share of the 108 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:27.800 research and convinced me that it was an important milestone 109 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:31.279 in the history of justice system in America. 110 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:37.519 Yeah, it certainly is. Now let's get to the time, 111 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:41.800 because you do provide this incredible, again vivid picture and 112 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:44.839 portrayal of what the time was like and again in 113 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:48.560 nineteen twenty seven. We think many things are different, but 114 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:53.480 so many things are very very similar. Oddly enough, So 115 00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:00.480 let's talk about where Perry Parker and Geraldine Parker and 116 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.360 Marion Parker lived sort of an affluent little community here 117 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:11.079 in around Los Angeles. So tell us about this little 118 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:13.000 community they lived in, what it was really like, and 119 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:17.079 what it was considered, and just a little bit about 120 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:20.839 the Parker family and what mister Parker did he worked it. 121 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:25.000 So go ahead, No, I was just gonna say, interesting enough, 122 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:28.879 I grew up fairly close to that same area, and 123 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:34.439 in the late twenties, I think Los Angeles was still 124 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:38.639 a bit more rural than we imagine. There were still 125 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:42.680 farms and ranches in the city which are now long gone, obviously, 126 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:47.879 and there was kind of the seats of what I 127 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:52.160 would call a community catering towards a workforce. So they 128 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:57.199 were starting the concept of track homes and bedroom communities 129 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:02.480 with the particular neighborhood. But this half was probably an upscale, 130 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:08.560 upper middle class neighborhood that it was probably unique at 131 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:14.480 the time because it was built at the time of 132 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:16.839 the story, where most of the I think most of 133 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:20.319 the upper middle class neighborhoods throughout the rest of the 134 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.839 country we're older and you know, tended to be more 135 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.600 brownstone and more stable. This was a miller community built 136 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:32.360 for specifically a targeted audience. So then you know, it 137 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:35.399 was kind of sold on the idea that it was 138 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:40.440 safe and that it was people of similar background, and 139 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:44.039 it was. It was kind of the American agreement at 140 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:44.919 the time in some ways. 141 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:51.960 Now Perry Parker, mister Parker worked at the First National Bank. 142 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:59.080 He did excuse me, go ahead, go ahead. No, I 143 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:01.080 was just to say you were the banker was also 144 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:04.080 well known too, because the part of the interest in 145 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.600 the story is that a lot of the players and 146 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:13.360 characters and figures who had a role in the case 147 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:16.799 actually knew him personally. So he was a well known banker, 148 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:23.279 He was respected, took his job seriously. There was no 149 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:28.559 hint of any bad behavior on his partner in terms 150 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:31.720 of the way he conducted himself as a banker, and 151 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:36.240 he was just he seemed to be well liked. I mean, 152 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:42.080 everybody who counted him during the investigation in Trialhoo had 153 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:44.879 known him before, had nothing but positive things to say 154 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:45.200 about it. 155 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:53.679 Yes, we'll talk about those again. Bizarre almost strange connections 156 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:56.080 with an ext door neighbors being that, you know, so 157 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:59.399 we'll talk about that at that time. So now let's 158 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:05.399 let's go to December fifteenth. They're in this community, they're affluent, 159 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.240 they're in the safest part of this community. It is 160 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.080 a safe time relatively, because of the crime that we're 161 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:15.840 going to describe was unprecedented at that time. It shocked 162 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.720 the entire nation, if not a lot of the world. 163 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:26.639 So December fifteenth, nineteen twenty seven, and mister Parker gets 164 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:30.480 a call from Naomi Britain, which is the school secretary, 165 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.720 and she calls to ask to see if the family 166 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:40.720 would want to have Marian's twin sister, the twelve year 167 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:42.960 old Marion that we mentioned in the beginning. Her twin 168 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:46.600 sister to come home as well, and then tell us 169 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:51.759 what mister Parker deduces from speaking to Naomi Britain in 170 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:52.440 short order. 171 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:58.399 And that's just well. To give it a little context, 172 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:06.960 the school was calling because someone had come back come 173 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.840 by the school to pick up Marrying Parker, to take 174 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:13.480 her to the hospital because supposedly her father was in 175 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.919 an automobile accident. And it was your father who picked 176 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.039 up the phone, and he obviously was not at the hospital. 177 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.240 He had not been in an accident, and he had 178 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.960 not authorized anybody to go to the school to pick 179 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:31.639 him up his daughter, and so he was immediately concerned. 180 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:39.360 Stress realized something was wrong, and the school realized that 181 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:42.120 they had made a significant monder. I'd have to say 182 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:47.840 nowadays the chances of a stranger taking him a kid 183 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:50.840 out of school was probably non existence, and at the 184 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:56.000 time it was a little more part it was the 185 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.759 part it was more likely around that time, but even 186 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:02.759 and they had the rules and restrictions on who could 187 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:06.000 take a student out of the school, and for some 188 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:09.799 of those rules were not really followed closely. Out of 189 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:15.919 the principal who should have authorized the release was not available, 190 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:19.840 and the secretary kind of made a decision based on 191 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:23.120 her belief and the credibility of the story, and so 192 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:28.840 she went with William Hickman, who had come and claimed 193 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.039 to be George Foss I think that was a ales 194 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:35.159 few years at the time, and said that he was 195 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:37.919 going to take marry It to the hospital that pcaus 196 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:42.879 her father had requested. And I think perhaps it's not 197 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.000 clear if he knew she had a twin sister or not, 198 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.879 but he certainly only asked for the one doomic. 199 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:54.919 To be fair to the secretary. Because then this is 200 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.000 part of it, because it came quite controversial shortly after 201 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:02.720 or immediately after, is that this guy had the fantastic ruse. 202 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:05.919 He was well dressed, right, he had this dailius, But 203 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.559 he also had uh. He had offered to say, oh, 204 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:12.879 I work with He knew enough where mister Parker works, 205 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:14.799 so he said, I work at the First National Bank 206 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.080 with mister Parker, if you would like to call them 207 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:20.600 and verify my identity. So he was good enough to 208 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.279 bluff and nobody took him up on that. So, to 209 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.879 be fair, that's an unusual rule that might even work today. 210 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.679 That's a good yeah, that's a good point. And he 211 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.440 knew some of he tells us. In fact, he had 212 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:40.200 worked for Parker uh several years earlier and knew the 213 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:43.960 routine him for his work, new personal details about the 214 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.200 man's life, so it was not like he was making 215 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.799 up a story. He had some information to work with, 216 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:52.600 which made him even more convincing. 217 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:57.519 I think, now, let's get to this phone call that 218 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:01.600 he gets about, and he deduces what happens with his 219 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:05.919 daughter in that she's been kidnapped by this man, and 220 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:09.799 so they're scrambling to find out. He contacts police. Obviously, 221 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:12.240 tell us what happens next and what he does, and 222 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.519 what is the police reaction. It's interesting to say that 223 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.080 they immediately, of course, think he may be a suspect. 224 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.360 So tell us how police proceed with this kidnapping as 225 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:24.919 far as they know. 226 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:34.519 Well, the kidnapper obviously told Parker not to contact the police. 227 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.200 That's kind of a common thing and kidnapping cases, it 228 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:43.159 rarely happens that way, but that's certainly a common request. 229 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:52.120 And the police had the drop off spot under surveillance 230 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:56.519 and for the first meeting and apparently saw them notice them, 231 00:14:56.919 --> 00:14:57.840 felt something was. 232 00:14:57.879 --> 00:14:58.919 Wrong and. 233 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:05.000 Didn't follow up with the exchange, which made the father 234 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:08.200 really upset, and he got more and more upset about that. 235 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.840 The police became more and more suspicious of him, and 236 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:16.919 the whole thing got off the kind of shaky start 237 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:17.360 would say. 238 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:23.039 Now there's ways I he's communicating. There's the phone call, 239 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:24.759 they put a tap on the phone, but he's also 240 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:30.120 using telegraphs, and then he's also then sending packages. So right, 241 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:34.159 the second one he talks about using this common theme 242 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:40.159 he uses use good judgment, interferious, dangerous, and this progresses 243 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:42.320 as time goes on, because there's this more than the 244 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:47.279 two communications. Now now he tells them, don't get how 245 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:50.360 the police involves. So what does mister Parker do, What 246 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:52.159 does he ask the police to do? And what did 247 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:54.080 the police do in response to his request? 248 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.879 Well, he insisted on this on the second drop off, 249 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:02.159 that you go alone, and that he'd be allowed to 250 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:07.240 make the exchange without them watching him, so that he 251 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:12.159 didn't run the risk of a second failure at the exchange, 252 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:17.240 and the police agreed to his terms at that point. 253 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:28.159 Now the terms are fifteen hundred dollars US seventy five 254 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:34.759 twenty dollars gold certificates. That's just one of the stipulations, right, right, yes, 255 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:41.519 and let go ahead. And he always talks about this 256 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:47.720 death close to death, mister Parker, and trust and so 257 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:52.759 he says, and it's always if you interfere, so. 258 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:59.120 Right, you know. From a psychological point of view, I 259 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:04.559 think he was laying the foundation to deflect his own 260 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:07.759 guilt and blame. And to him it becomes clear as 261 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.920 the chase unfolds, which is clear in many cases. I 262 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.640 did a lot of work doing criminal defense work, and 263 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:22.839 criminals to commit, especially serious currents, have a tendency to scapego, others, blame, others, 264 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:27.640 do everything except to take responsibility for their own involvements. 265 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.400 So it seems to me in his behavior he was 266 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:35.319 kind of, at least unconsciously laying that foundation. 267 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:42.839 Now with the the first communication, he realizes that the 268 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:47.559 police have been notified. So he's angry, he says. So 269 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.480 he indicates that in the correspondence. But what he gets 270 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.359 in the correspondence as well is a note from Marion 271 00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:00.319 Parker just to add to mister Parker's torment. So does 272 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.559 she essentially say in that little note. 273 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:08.119 Listen, remind me of the details. She was asking for 274 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:11.240 her father to cooperate, you know. And the odd part 275 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.400 of it is is and maybe Irope I'm not jumping 276 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:19.359 to the editor. But in the course of her being kidnapped, 277 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:22.559 she and she and the kidnapper went to the movies, 278 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:30.400 you know, So she was either very frightened or not 279 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:35.319 frightened at all. It's not really clear from the evidence 280 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.759 is available why she was, so let's say compliant with 281 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:44.839 his request. But she definitely wrote her father and definitely 282 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:47.400 asked him to cooperate. 283 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:53.000 And there's another note as well where she where she 284 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.519 obviously is privy to the conversation where the kidnapper is 285 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.880 upset and says to her father I saw you or 286 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.079 or you know, dad, you got to cooperate or I'll 287 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.359 be he'll kill me. So it seems pretty authentic in 288 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:08.400 terms of the feature. 289 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:13.039 Yeah, I believe she wrote. No, it's absolutely and in 290 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:18.279 his account later he claims to have killed her in 291 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:22.119 a fit of anger and that it was not his intention. 292 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:31.240 So yes, obviously, before she was killed, she was anxious 293 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:35.480 to be released and certainly was making the fleet, certainly 294 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:41.440 was adding to the stress her father was seating him mean, 295 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.440 he was taught between the police and the need to 296 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:49.920 accommodate the kidnapp her and and he was a wealthy man, 297 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:54.480 so the money wasn't prohibitive or excessive. It was easily 298 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.279 available to him. So I'm sure he wanted to just 299 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:03.240 follow the instructions. Getting open. We're going to move on. Now. 300 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.839 You have this heartbreaking scene in here, and all of 301 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.640 this in the very beginning. Is mind blowing is that 302 00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:13.160 the police, Lucas and Raymond, actually believe again the prime 303 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:17.160 suspect is mister Parker. Somehow, I don't know how they 304 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:21.799 justify that, rationalize that. But at the same time, at 305 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.839 the end, he says, please, I can't you know this 306 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:27.319 man's going to kill my daughter. I want to just 307 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:29.359 pay the ransom, and they think, I don't think that's 308 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:31.559 a good idea. And yet they still think Parker is 309 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:37.000 still main suspect. So what does he do? We alluded 310 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.680 to it in the introduction, but we have to go 311 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.240 into detail because this is one of the most unique 312 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:48.680 crimes murders scenarios that I've ever read, and I mean 313 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.519 I've read a lot, and this is nineteen twenty seven. 314 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:56.319 So to explain the shock of the nation, we have 315 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:01.319 to talk about what the father is. He's he's warned 316 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:06.480 by this kidnapper but he is determined, doesn't care about 317 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:10.079 the money. What happens, what is what is his instructions? 318 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.440 And what does he do take us through that? 319 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:18.400 Well, he tells me, obviously, to come along. They meet 320 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:23.720 on a street there the house and and uh, the 321 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:28.680 father has parked, and then the Hickman comes towards him 322 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:37.480 and comes parallel to him, and he asked about his 323 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.119 daughter's condition. From from the from the father's perspective, it 324 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:44.559 looks like his daughter is in the passenger seat with 325 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:49.319 the car. And so they make the exchange of the money. 326 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:54.960 And then uh, hickman pulls down the street and tells 327 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:59.920 the father to wait before he comes and picks up 328 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:06.000 his daughter. Is that the part you were talking about? Yeah? Yeah, 329 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:13.119 and uh, and so in that short interim, Hickman takes 330 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:18.279 his daughter out of the car. His daughter is dead 331 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:23.519 at that point. His daughter has been badly mutilated in 332 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:26.759 the sense that her limbs and legs have been removed, 333 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.200 her eyelids have been sown, and she's got a hat 334 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.759 down over her forehead so she's hard to see. And 335 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:38.240 she was essentially propped up with a heavy overcoat and 336 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:43.680 made to look like she was still alive. So when 337 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:49.000 her father comes and discovers the condition she's in. I mean, 338 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:56.039 he's obviously devastated and goes back and tells the police 339 00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:00.839 that his daughter is dead. And I have to say, 340 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:05.720 the police at that point we're not real sympathetic, and 341 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:09.839 they also it kind of increased their suspicion of him 342 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:10.279 at that. 343 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:19.599 Incredible Now you write another again, amazing aspect of this 344 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:25.319 again it's it's nineteen twenty seven. Be surprised. The next 345 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:30.799 day on the front pages are photographs of the crime sceness. 346 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.039 And we just talked about disarticulated arms at the elbows, 347 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:40.279 legs at the knees, a twelve year old with her 348 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:42.759 eyes sewn open so that he could fool her when 349 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:45.640 they rode by in the car that she might still 350 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.480 be alive. This ghoul, I know. These are the stories 351 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.079 the next day. These are the photos on the front 352 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:59.640 pages of the newspapers in California. And further along, what 353 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:03.720 did the police do now and what's their direction? 354 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.640 Well? Yeah, listen, in those days, it was common for 355 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:13.599 police photographers actually to be freelanced. They didn't have the 356 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:17.400 kind of CSI in its that we see on TV nowadays. 357 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:30.000 And you know, the current photographers sometimes doubled as journalists photographers, 358 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:35.880 but clearly somebody from within the investigation gave the photographer 359 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:39.480 access to the pictures. It's very likely that there was 360 00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:44.599 a bribe involved. And no, it was kind of the 361 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:51.000 beginning of the outrage around being sensitive certainly to crimes 362 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.559 against minors, being sensitive to the kinds of photographs that 363 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:59.960 were released, and you know, it kind of clearly raised 364 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:04.559 the issue of what information could, would and should be 365 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:07.559 released to the public. And in fact that issue became 366 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:12.920 more pronounced as the same pictures were actually used in 367 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:17.839 the newsreels. That became a significant issue nationally action. 368 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:22.200 When you talk about newsreels, to let the audience know 369 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.640 that what these were. Where there was two feature films 370 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:29.279 and then there was a cartoon, and then there was newsreels, 371 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:31.759 which was the news of the day. As gory as 372 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:36.880 it was, this was unprecedented graphic detail. And this became 373 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.680 controversial as well. Not everybody thought that was fit for 374 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:46.119 the theaters and the family, did they Well, yeah. 375 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:50.240 It actually was more significantly than some of the theater 376 00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:54.920 owners refused to show them, I mean flat outs that 377 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:59.640 were not going to show this. The studios got a 378 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:06.119 little nervous about the fact that the sendo owners should 379 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:08.279 have that kind of power to decide what they would 380 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:12.000 and wouldn't show, and the issue over whether it was 381 00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:16.359 appropriate well all the way to Congress and really kind 382 00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:21.920 of generated what then was an effort at censorship and 383 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.440 what's called the Hayes Commission, which was a group to 384 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.759 determine what could and couldn't be showing them theaters and 385 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.319 to also make a kind of extensive list of what 386 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.039 subjects were and weren't appropriate for films. 387 00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:46.440 You took about Louis B. Mayor, famous film pioneer, and 388 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.640 at the time too, it was just it was still 389 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.640 no sound for films, so the silent films, and you 390 00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:58.680 also talk about just the time that it was. At 391 00:26:58.759 --> 00:27:03.680 this time was the heroics of Charles Limberg flying from 392 00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:08.559 from New York to Paris, the first telephone call from 393 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:13.119 New York to London. So you talk about the times, 394 00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:17.880 and you also talk about how Mayor really was looking 395 00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:20.519 at You cite Canada, so tell us really what he 396 00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:24.440 looked at and what he saw this case as representing. 397 00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:29.680 To talk about his he was a staunch anti anti 398 00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:32.519 censorship person, so tell us what he saw in the 399 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:35.480 in the Canadian rulings and what potentially he could see 400 00:27:35.559 --> 00:27:39.640 from the backlash from these new newsreels and this case. 401 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:43.599