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That's chumbuck 21 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:57.560 Casino dot com. 22 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.759 No'll britgs necessary, d over every I lost. 23 00:00:59.640 --> 00:00:59.960 The terms of. 24 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:01.719 Host. 25 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.799 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 26 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:17.920 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 27 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:25.239 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 28 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:33.599 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:46.640 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good Evening. 31 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.640 This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, 32 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:52.599 The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the 33 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:57.319 authors that have written about them. Michael Breeseback had been 34 00:01:57.359 --> 00:01:59.680 a prosecutor for twenty two years and thought he'd seen 35 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:02.719 it all, but nothing prepared him for the case you're 36 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:05.599 about to read and hear about a true crime story 37 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:08.439 where the good guys are sometimes the bad guys, and 38 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:11.240 the bad guys the good. It's a case of violent 39 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:13.719 crime with a mind numbing twist, but mostly it's a 40 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.439 case about innocence and guilt. On July twenty ninth, nineteen 41 00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:21.240 eighty five, Penny Beernstein set out for a late afternoon 42 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:23.520 jog along a remote stretch of beach on the Lake 43 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.039 Michigan shoreline, unaware that just minutes later, a deranged sex 44 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.479 offender would shatter her world to pieces. It would be 45 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:33.280 a jog that would change her life forever in more 46 00:02:33.319 --> 00:02:36.599 ways than she could have imagined. Within hours, police and 47 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:40.000 prosecutors zeroed in on Stephen Avery, a known offender who 48 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:42.759 was out on bail for another crime. Armed only with 49 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:45.919 suspicion and lacking a warrant, they dragged their suspect from 50 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:48.680 his home and took them to jail. What followed was 51 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:51.400 a twenty year crime saga. The gripped the entire state, 52 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:54.879 made Stephen Avery a household name in Wisconsin, and left 53 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:58.840 the local justice system nearly in ruins. My special guest 54 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:05.919 this evening is journalist and author and prosecutor Michael Breeseback, 55 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:09.360 and we're going to try to connect with him again. 56 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:12.759 We're having technical problems. I just was speaking with Michael 57 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:16.400 breesback for the last ten minutes or so previous to 58 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:21.840 getting the show back on the road again from being disconnected. 59 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:22.479 So we. 60 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.000 I can see the numbers on the screen, But. 61 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:35.159 Yeah, are you there? Yes, I am okay, Dan, it's Mike. 62 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:36.599 I hope we're on together. 63 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:42.400 Okay, I hear you on the phone, So I'm hoping 64 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.439 that our audience is hearing you live. So I'm sure 65 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:50.319 that's what's going on. Okay, Okay, So I just introduced 66 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.560 your book, So let's get down to a little bit 67 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:57.680 of the introduction of this story. This story occurred in 68 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:03.879 nineteen eighty five. But your book starts, you start, and 69 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:08.960 I'll ask you to explain why it starts on July fourteenth, 70 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:12.479 nineteen eighty five. So let's go back to that must 71 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:14.879 be important why you started your book that and describe 72 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:17.560 the scene that you first described in the very beginning 73 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.040 of your book on July fourteenth, nineteen eighty five. 74 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:21.120 Sure. 75 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:25.720 Yeah, And it's a shocking start to the book. And 76 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.639 the reason I started with it was it shows I 77 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:36.360 think that there was this dangerous social path really on 78 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:41.160 the loose on July fourteenth and nineteen eighty five and 79 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.040 really all that summer. So I wanted the reader to 80 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:47.920 see right out front that there is a very dangerous 81 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:51.199 social path. Like I said, I'm the loose. The police 82 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.240 had a pretty good idea of who he was, but 83 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:57.040 they didn't have enough to bring him in. And so 84 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.000 what happens after that the reader, hopefully in the back 85 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:03.839 of his mind, is her his or her mind is thinking, 86 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:07.720 I wonder if this guy's up to it again, because 87 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:12.519 it quickly moves on today that you described that that 88 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:14.399 the main part of the book opens. 89 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:18.560 With Okay, now did you just call me and I 90 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:21.399 we were connecting via that method? 91 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:26.560 Yeah, I think we were. We were on before and 92 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:30.079 for some reason it got disconnected. I think, but we're 93 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:32.079 we should be on together now hopefully. 94 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:35.279 Okay, So the number you just called is this blog 95 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:36.079 talk number right? 96 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:37.240 Correct? 97 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:42.319 Okay, got it. I'm just just just I'm a little 98 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.480 you know, just frustrated from the glitious here. So I 99 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:48.399 apologize to the audience for that. Now let's let's start 100 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:53.800 with this. This where this uh story is actually set 101 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:59.360 in Manuttoauck County, Wisconsin. I know the populations around eight thousand, 102 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:03.399 if I'm not incorrect. Tell us what this little community 103 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:07.839 looks like and what it's really like. Describe it for us, 104 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:10.360 and geographically where is this county? 105 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:11.480 Sure? 106 00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:13.959 Well, I live here. I'm still a prosecutor here, and 107 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:20.120 it's a wonderful little county, little area. It's your listeners 108 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:26.079 proudly are familiar with Milwaukee, Chicago, of course. And then 109 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:30.000 two hundred miles Chicago's Milwaukee well Manach walks about another 110 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:34.879 ninety eight miles north of Milwaukee, thirty miles south of 111 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:37.759 Green Bay, the home of the Green Bay Packers, right 112 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:40.800 of which we're all proud of here in Wisconsin, of course. 113 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:45.000 And it's a community. It's actually about eighty thousand, that 114 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:49.279 eight thousand and eighty thousand, quite right, and we're right 115 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:53.519 on Lake Michigan, and it's a real scenic area and 116 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:57.399 it's just you know, part of Wisconsin. The first crime 117 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:02.120 occurred in a remote action as you were reading the 118 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:06.360 beach on Wake Michigan in a state forest called Point 119 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:11.240 Beach State Forest, with a woman who was jagging along 120 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:15.279 the beach. She was in the habit of jagging. She 121 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:20.759 was a fitness physical fitness instructor at the WAYNCAA, and 122 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:24.759 she had a six mile jag per day, really up 123 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:27.279 and down the beach, but a very desolate part of 124 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:29.800 the Lake Michigan beach where the first crime occurred. 125 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:34.160 Right now, you talk about her having this should be 126 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:36.839 a dedicated jogger. And so she went on an one 127 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.399 hour run that day. And that's important to this whole 128 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:42.560 thing in terms of evidence later in terms of really 129 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:46.000 defining when this attack occurred, which is again later important. 130 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:49.319 So tell us a little bit more about Penny, what 131 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:54.000 she's like, did, where was her family at this point? 132 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:56.079 You say, she goes on this desolate part of the beach. 133 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.240 Why would she run in this place that's out of 134 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:01.360 the way. Tell us a little bit about a little 135 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:03.639 bit more about Penny, why she was doing this, uh, 136 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.720 this this hour run, and then what she finally encountered 137 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:09.480 while she was jogging that night. 138 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:14.519 Absolutely well, Penny and her husband, and they had two children, 139 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:18.800 by the way, they were actually, uh, sort of some 140 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.920 prominent people in the community. They were business people. They 141 00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:27.480 ran a confectionery or a candy store type of operation 142 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.919 that that Tom Bernston's grandparents actually started. So then it 143 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:37.000 talks a bit of a tourist area, and this candy 144 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:42.039 shop was a tourist area, and they basically took their kids, 145 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:48.399 their children to the beach that day. And as the day, 146 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:52.720 late afternoon comes along, Penny decides she's going to take 147 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:58.879 her her job. She was very fit, and the public 148 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:03.679 beach where they were is a regular public beach, plenty 149 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:06.200 of people there enjoying the day. But when she took 150 00:09:06.279 --> 00:09:09.799 her jag from that, she went north of there, and 151 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.360 it very quickly becomes a desolate area. She had passed 152 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:18.440 sort of a scraggly looking fellow on the way away 153 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.039 from the beach as she continued jagging north. Didn't think 154 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:25.080 too much of it, although he had a leather jacket on, 155 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:27.000 and you know, it's in the mid eighties, and she 156 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:29.039 kind of wondered about that, and the guy made some 157 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:32.120 tim into him. But it's on her way back forty 158 00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:38.000 minutes later that this fella basically jumps out from behind 159 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:41.919 a poplar tree or bush close to the water right 160 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:45.519 at the beach. Penny, I don't want to give the 161 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:48.320 whole book away, but I think that the people will, 162 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:51.519 the readers and your listeners, though they need to know 163 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:53.720 what the first crime's about, because this is kind of 164 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:58.240 a templicated story. But Penny angles out into the water. 165 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.960 She tries to run away from this high stepping over 166 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:05.200 the waves, and not able to do it. She thought 167 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.600 about diving into the water, but she was afraid he 168 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.080 was going to grab her and strangle her. And now 169 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:15.159 he overpowered her and manhandled her over the side the 170 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:20.159 sand dunes. Basically, she's a very petite woman, but she's 171 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:24.519 also a very strong woman. And by the way, Penny 172 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.960 appreciates the fact that this book was written. She's very 173 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.879 supportive of it. She wrote a blurb or a review 174 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:35.320 on the back of the book. So she's fighting with 175 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.080 us using her name, and she's gone on to do 176 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:41.720 some really good things in the criminal justice system. But anyhow, 177 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:47.840 despite her kicking and struggling and trying to push back 178 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:53.720 against this assailant, he got her over the sand dunes 179 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:56.200 header where no one could see her, then into the 180 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:58.799 forest and just brutally attacked her. 181 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.960 What if you don't mind, could you give us some 182 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:05.000 of the details, some of the particulars, because they are 183 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:07.720 important later in terms of the story. 184 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:12.960 Sure, well, you know the claim itself, it was it 185 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.679 turned into of course it was a sexual assault. You 186 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:18.919 know that the law, at least in the United States 187 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:25.200 doesn't really distinguish too much between a completed act of 188 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:31.240 sexual intercourse frankly, or different types of sexual contact in 189 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.879 terms of the charge. So you know, rape in Wisconsin 190 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:41.559 or first degree sexual assaults is whether whether you know 191 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:48.200 it's it's sexual contact without consent with force, or whether 192 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:52.240 it's actually sexual intercourse without consent. And it really doesn't matter. 193 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:55.559 It matters to the victim. And Penny fortunately was able 194 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:59.879 just through kicking and screaming and pleating and not getting 195 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:04.240 and in her mind she wasn't raped in the law, 196 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.120 under the law's eye, she was because he pore off 197 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.559 her clothes and when she said, my husband will come 198 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:14.200 looking for me, he swore, used every name you could imagine. 199 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:19.879 He pounded her brutally on her face. She received serious injuries. 200 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:27.679 Tenny was left naked, bloodied, badly bruised, completely dazed, kind 201 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:31.200 of staring off into the waters of Lake Michigan after 202 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.080 this fellow left. It's just a horrible crime, as bad 203 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:37.720 as it can get for any woman to experience. 204 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:41.360 I'm sure certainly. Now, what are some of the things that, 205 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:45.279 if anything, that he did say to the victim while 206 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:48.519 he was, you know, inflicting this damage on this woman. 207 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.720 Wow, Things like do it now, or I'm going to 208 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.720 kill you, things like shut up you you know, and 209 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:01.919 you can fill in the obscenities. Setty foul from there. 210 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:08.600 Just an animal, cruel, kind of violent type of person. 211 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:11.440 She I'm sure thought she wasn't going to live. He 212 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:13.399 said he had a knife and that he was going 213 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:17.919 to kill her. There's no indication the police didn't find 214 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.279 a knife, but she certainly certainly felt that he had one. 215 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:26.879 She kept her wits about her by telling, you know, 216 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:29.679 she's going to be late getting back to her husband. 217 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:36.559 She's sure he'll be out looking for her. The assailant 218 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:39.759 to win, and in the end I think that's what 219 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:42.480 saved her. But after a while, after he beat her 220 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:48.480 basically to a bloody pope, he ran away, scampered into 221 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:48.960 the woods. 222 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:54.000 How good a look did she get at the perpetrator? 223 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:57.279 In her mind, how good a look did she get 224 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:01.759 if she did get a look at this this sailant. 225 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:05.159 Yeah, well she felt she had a pretty good look. 226 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.679 You know, they were face to face, and the attack 227 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.919 it went on over a fifteen maybe twenty minute period. 228 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.840 It was a This wasn't a real quick, short confrontation 229 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.559 she had with him. Remember he had to drag her 230 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.159 from the water up to the woods, and then of 231 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.679 course the attempted rape or the actual rape under the lost. 232 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:26.200 So she thought. 233 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:31.679 She had a fairly good look. She knew that his eyes, 234 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:35.519 for instance, were brown. She knew he had brown eyes, 235 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:40.320 and she thought he was had what we referred to 236 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:42.720 here in Wisconsin as a little bit of a beer belly. 237 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:45.519 That was his firm. She used to describe to the police. 238 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:51.039 He was bearded anyways, the medium medium height roughly, So 239 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:56.399 that's the description she had of him. So, yeah, right 240 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:58.639 in that area, is what she said. I think that's right. 241 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:06.320 Yeah, okay. And so she was how does she is she? 242 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.799 Who finds her on the beach? And how does she 243 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.399 get to the hospital and how does how do things 244 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:12.000 work from there? 245 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:14.000 Uh? 246 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:17.159 There was a couple sailing actually in the area, and 247 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:21.399 she had tried to make her way, basically crawl to 248 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.799 the water to wash the blood off of her face. 249 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:26.879 She didn't want her children to see her that way. 250 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.240 The couple saw her, came over, wrapped the towel around 251 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:35.120 her real quickly, and about the same time, her husband, 252 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:40.960 Tom Birdson came running up along the beach frantically looking 253 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:44.559 for her. He had already sent some some kids on 254 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.320 a jet ski north looking for her, and he had 255 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.559 already called it's amazing, He had already called nine one one, 256 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:53.639 and there was an ambulance waiting back at the parking 257 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:57.159 lot at the beach. When when he tried, actually he 258 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:01.200 carried his wife down the beach until she got sick, 259 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:03.600 and then she walked the rest of the way. So 260 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.039 that's how she was found. And then she was taken 261 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:10.519 quickly to the hospital in Manitowac, which is a slightly 262 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:13.759 larger city here where I live and work in and 263 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:15.960 uh treated at the hospital. 264 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.679 Now, how did people police proceed with the description that 265 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.840 they did have? How did they go about? What's the 266 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:24.759 next thing that they did? 267 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:31.919 Well? Uh, they they took a you know, they they 268 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:36.000 always take a physical examination. They have the physicians do. Uh. 269 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:39.799 We cast that most forensic examination. 270 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:40.919 Uh. 271 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:51.279 And the sheriff and stuff got was not share knew. 272 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:56.799 I think it was from church. And also the bag 273 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:11.519 right there for Austin Long for Na doesn't involve investigations, 274 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.039 but he did in this one. Uh. And Penny gave 275 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:20.200 a description of her assailant. And at that point the 276 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.920 police officer, the detective was there, a female detective, and 277 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:28.000 the name Stephen Avery came to her mind almost to me. 278 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.720 Uh And from then on, Uh, it was on the 279 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:41.559 training she said, I bet it's Steven. Did just what 280 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.200 police should not do. They closed their minds and they 281 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:49.119 thought he had a bear after all, and he lived 282 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:54.200 sworded near there. He was no lifer there, and I 283 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:57.480 guess it's reasonable that they thought it was him, but 284 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:01.440 they closed their their minds after their and just out 285 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.599 up with just Avery must be the guy, basically. 286 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:08.359 Right, We're having a little bit of problem hearing everything 287 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.720 that you're saying, so I'm not sure if if it 288 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:13.920 helps just staying in one position or what we can 289 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.640 do to but we have a problem missing a little 290 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:18.640 bit of the information that you're imparting here. 291 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:23.079 So I ll let me try to media just a 292 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.960 little bit. The connection will be better because we were good. 293 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:28.960 We were good there for the first a little while there, 294 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:35.119 for first fifteen minutes. So okay, okay, So now you 295 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:37.799 say that we'll have to go back just a little 296 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:40.640 bit to you say that there was a physical exam 297 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.079 of Penny bernst In, and then the woman that was 298 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:50.319 there was Judy, Deputy Judy de Vork and right away 299 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.079 she said it came to mind for some reason, and 300 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.440 you can tell us why. The reason is because her 301 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.599 relationship to Steven Avery is important, like where she lives, 302 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.880 So tell us why she thought that, and what was 303 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.599 her relationship and what did she know or what she 304 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:07.640 did she think she knew? About Stephen Avery. 305 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:13.440 Sure, and this is one of those problems with smaller 306 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.359 counties where everyone knows everyone, or at least a lot 307 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:21.279 of the people do. 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No 328 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.079 purchase necessary. Board were prohibited by Lockey Team plus Terms 329 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:21.279 and conditions applying see. 330 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:24.920 Website for details hospital to interview Penny Burns and lived 331 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:29.960 across the street from Stephen Avery, and she knew that 332 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:35.200 he was on bail for trying to assault a different 333 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.400 woman in the neighborhood. In fact, that in itself was 334 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:45.160 a pretty serious crime. He had basically run down a woman, 335 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.960 a neighbor, a different neighbor of his. He got in 336 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:53.200 his pickup truck and rammed into her car, basically had 337 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.720 her pull over the side of the road. He held 338 00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:01.519 her at gunpoint and clearly had in mind that he 339 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.960 was going to assault her. She pointed out that her 340 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:12.839 baby was in the car, even that he wouldn't go 341 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:14.680 below a circle. 342 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:16.440 Go. 343 00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:20.720 So here, this person was on bail on a pretty 344 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:25.920 horrible crime. And Judy de Vorak, though knew about that crime, 345 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:30.119 she knew more about mister Avery because she's his neighbor 346 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:41.640 was and the victim in the case that Avery was 347 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.359 on bail for the pending case was the wife of 348 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:50.039 a deputy of a reserve deputy sheriff. So the police 349 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:54.119 kind of had Avery in their consciousness, and I think 350 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:57.279 that's largely why he came to her mind so quickly. 351 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:01.079 Now the thing is, you say police, really it is 352 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:05.440 more so a specific sheriff. And if I mispronounced this, 353 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:09.160 you can correct me Cook Kerrick and really because you know, 354 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:10.880 and you can explain this a little bit later as 355 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.160 an unfolds. But the sheriff that goes along with Deputy 356 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:17.039 Judy de Vork is the sheriff for Kirk and he 357 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:20.240 ends up being you know, this is an interesting story 358 00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:24.400 where he the strange turn of events happens in this 359 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.240 and a lot of things that aren't known in nineteen 360 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.160 eighty five come out much later. So tell us a 361 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.279 little bit about Sheriff Cook Kheric and hopefully that's the 362 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:36.599 way you pronounce his name, So it's. 363 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:43.880 Called the Sheriffseric Timeusuric. Yeah, he Sheriff Couseric. As soon 364 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:48.960 as he heard hears the name Steven Avery, he he 365 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:54.720 had the deputies at the Sheriff's department, Uh, bring up 366 00:22:54.839 --> 00:23:01.400 some photos, some mugshots, and basically I wanted them to 367 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:05.559 include one of step and Avery. I believe the sheriff 368 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:12.200 thought at the beginning it was Stephen Avery. As we 369 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:17.000 indicated earlier. The other deputy who was on the scene, 370 00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:21.519 Deputy Boat Duty Devorrex, she thought it was Avery. She 371 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.119 used the name Avery, and she found it pretty certain 372 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.279 about it for whatever reason. So Sheriff Kusurrek at that 373 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.920 point thought, oh, it's probably Stephen Avery. So he had 374 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:36.720 a photo array prepared. But before he did that, he 375 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:42.599 had a police artist, his detective Cuchet, do a composite 376 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:48.799 with a description from Penny Burnsam And here's the thing 377 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:53.200 where they blew it. At least in my opinion and 378 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:58.519 in anybody's opinion, I think they had the mudshot of 379 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:02.599 Avery on this scene when the composite sketch was drawn, 380 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:07.839 and amazingly, the composite sketch, the police artist's sketch looked 381 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:13.400 almost exactly like Avery's mugshot. So it makes you wonder 382 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.160 whether the police artist didn't take a look at Avery's 383 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:22.559 mugshot and kind of suggest to the victim while he 384 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.160 was doing the composite sketch, well, maybe could the person 385 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.039 look a little bit more like this? And I have 386 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:32.119 to tell you it's hard. Composite sketches are tough when 387 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:35.880 the person had facial hair, you know, because people with 388 00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.640 beards you're missing a large part of the features of 389 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.119 their faces. So you kind of looked with eye color 390 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.839 and length of hair and that sort of thing, and 391 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:48.920 the sheriff sort of you know, he knew about the 392 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:54.000 Avery's too, so he was more than happy to make 393 00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:57.799 a case as soon as he thought that Stephen Avery 394 00:24:57.920 --> 00:24:58.960 was his guy. 395 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:02.559 Here, Now let's go back just a bit, because I 396 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:05.160 think maybe the audience is not fully aware. Maybe I'm 397 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:08.519 not fully aware too. At this point, we talk about 398 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:11.599 this heinous crime where he pulls this sheriff or pulls 399 00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:14.279 this woman out of a car, and there is, if 400 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.799 I'm correct, not correct, that there is talk about dragging 401 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:21.200