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That's 23 00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:57.799 Chumbu Casino dot. 24 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:01.439 Com, No Personesses every Dvoid by Lost Eater atlay. 25 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:03.840 Loot Talk Radian. 26 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:16.319 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 27 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:19.439 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 28 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:26.799 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 29 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.519 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:34.799 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 31 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:49.200 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 32 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:53.799 Diane Fanning is the author of fourteen true crime books 33 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:58.359 published by Saint Martin's Press and Berkeley Books, including the 34 00:01:58.519 --> 00:02:02.840 Edgar Award nominated in Blood about Michael Peterson of Netflix, 35 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:06.840 The Staircase, and the best selling Mummy's Little Girl about 36 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:10.319 the infamous Casey Anthony Case. For the work she began 37 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:13.560 with Through the Window about serial killer Tommy Lynde Sells, 38 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:17.919 she received the Defender of Innocence Award from the Downstate 39 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:24.360 Illinois Innocence Project. Diane's fourteen true crime books are written 40 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:29.800 in Blood, Baby be Mine, Under the Knife, Gone Forever, 41 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:36.360 Through the Window, The Pastor's Wife, A Poisoned Passion, Mummy's 42 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:41.879 Little Girl, Her Deadly Web, Sleep My Darlings, under Cover 43 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:47.199 of The Night out There, Bitter Remains, and Death on 44 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:51.240 the River. We will discuss how her incredible true crime 45 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:55.240 writing career began, the cases and books that most affected 46 00:02:55.280 --> 00:03:00.520 her career, and what's next for the incomparable author. The 47 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:03.840 books that we're featuring this evening. The story this evening 48 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:07.879 is Diane Fanning True Crime Retrospective with my special guest, 49 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.080 journalist and author and a show favorite, Diane Fanning. Welcome 50 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:13.759 to the program, Diane Fanning. 51 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:17.599 Hi. Dan, Great to be with you and your listeners today. 52 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:22.199 It is always a pleasure having you on, and especially 53 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:26.240 now to talk about all of the books that you 54 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:30.439 have had in your collection, fourteen true crime masterpieces, many 55 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.879 of these true crime classics and by any standard, and 56 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.240 here we're going to talk about them today. Diane, take 57 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:44.599 us back to Baltimore, Maryland you growing up. Tell us 58 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:49.240 a little bit about your childhood and this incredible incident 59 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.840 when you were nine years old that certainly had some 60 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:55.560 influence in your true crime writing career. 61 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:02.199 Well, I was born in Baltimore and started my first 62 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:05.080 few years in the city itself, and then we moved 63 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:09.280 out to Baltimore County when I was six I had 64 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.000 just a pretty normal upbringing. 65 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:14.759 I'd say when I was nine to zero. 66 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:23.680 And this car pulled up and he said that he 67 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.360 was lost and could we give him directions. So I 68 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:29.279 told us where we wanted to go, and we tried 69 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.800 to explain to him where it was, and he said, 70 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:34.399 I don't understand. Could you please come up and look 71 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:37.399 at my map? Well, he threw open his car door 72 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:44.000 and I walked up in total innocence, and he, instead 73 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:51.680 of a map, was showing his genitals and was shocked. 74 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:55.120 I mean, I was like frozen in place, and he 75 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:56.839 grabbed my upper arm. 76 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:58.399 And started tugging on me. 77 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:01.360 I was resisting for all it was worth, but I 78 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.120 was a little kid, small in size for. 79 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:05.199 My age, and. 80 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:09.879 I was just about to lose my footing and go 81 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.800 into that car when another car came up over the 82 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.519 hill and laid on its horn. He let go of 83 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:20.759 me and drove off with his car doors still open. 84 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:27.279 I had been a big fan of Dragnet reruns on TV, 85 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:32.319 and I knew exactly what Sergeant Friday wanted me to do, 86 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:37.399 so I memorized the license plate number and I went 87 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:43.800 home and I told my mom and she called the police. 88 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:47.480 And they stopped the guy a couple days later, and 89 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.360 in the trunk of his car they found evidence that 90 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:56.160 he had sexually assaulted and murdered an eight year old 91 00:05:56.160 --> 00:06:01.720 girl the month before. It was kind of stunning to 92 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:05.680 me because well, I had to see his face. 93 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:08.560 On TV, which was shocking, and I. 94 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:12.480 Was also very confused. I mean, I wanted to know 95 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:17.480 why was I chosen to be a victim? And I 96 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:22.360 wanted to know how could someone do something like that. 97 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:26.639 It seemed so horrible to me and so against everything 98 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:29.920 that I'd been taught as I was raised, And so 99 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:32.959 I wanted to do some reading, and I was a 100 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:35.519 bit of a precocious kid. So I drugged my mother 101 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:38.839 to the library and made her sign because at that time, 102 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.079 you couldn't send out books. 103 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:43.959 From the adult section when you were just a little kid. 104 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:46.759 So she signed so that I could. 105 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:50.279 And I was getting out criminal psychology books with a 106 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:54.279 dictionary by my thought, and I started that started my 107 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:56.199 interest in true crime. 108 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:02.319 Now, you write about going to college in Virginia and 109 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:08.000 writing for radio and television working for an ad agency. 110 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:12.399 How did that prepare you for writing in general? And 111 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:16.240 tell us about how you got in the position. What 112 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:19.920 are the circumstances with your very first book? 113 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:20.360 Deal? 114 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:27.120 Well, I the writings of commercials and commercial announcements and 115 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:33.000 public service announcements taught me the importance of being concise. 116 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:39.920 So that became a natural trait for me. I when 117 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:43.079 I wrote, and it wasn't you know you can only 118 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:44.519 put so much in thirty seconds? 119 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:45.360 So many words? 120 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:49.720 I think seventy five was the recommended account, And so 121 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:53.399 I I learned to get right to the point because 122 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:55.519 I wrote a lot of theater than mine, kind of. 123 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.560 Spot and. 124 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:05.360 I quickly realized that instead of having to cut things 125 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:10.360 out when I started writing books, I really had to 126 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:14.639 plump things up a little bit because I was being 127 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:20.000 very sparse in my writing, and so that was kind 128 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:24.160 of a different way to come at it. But I 129 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:26.959 had been trying to get an agent for two years, 130 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.240 and this is the message to anybody out there that. 131 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:30.160 Wants to write a book. 132 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:35.200 Two years I tried without getting to keep trying, And 133 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:40.919 finally one day I was home alone and I was 134 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:44.240 flicking among channels on TV, and I came upon forty 135 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:48.519 eight Hours and this little girl named Crystal Searles, and 136 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:54.919 she was telling her story, and it resonated with me immediately, 137 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:59.879 because what she said was like what I did when 138 00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:05.120 I was nine times one hundred. Crystal Searles sat there 139 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:09.639 on the top bunk and watched a serial killer murder 140 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:15.120 her best friend. Then he slit her throat and left 141 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:20.320 her for dead. That little child got up at four 142 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:25.360 o'clock in the morning and walked barefoot down a gravel 143 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:32.080 road where there were tarantulas and poisonous rattlesnakes and cactus 144 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:37.039 and lord knows what else in far West Texas. And 145 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.840 she got to a house where she found a man 146 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:47.039 who had an interesting hobby. Every year, he got up 147 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:53.279 when to watch TV and see every New Year's arrive 148 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:57.759 all around the world. So he was up watching New 149 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.480 Year's arriving, I think in a your New Zealand or something. 150 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:05.840 And so he came right to the door and he 151 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.159 saw her, and she couldn't speak. She had a huge 152 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.759 blood clot on her neck and she couldn't say a 153 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.639 word because her vocal cords have been cut. So she 154 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:19.000 motioned for a pencil on paper, and he got it, 155 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:23.840 and she wrote, get the cops. He killed everybody. And 156 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:28.000 so he got her in and made her comfortable while 157 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:31.519 he got an ambulance for her, and then she was 158 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:37.200 airlifted to San Antonio where she went into surgery. And 159 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.039 she's ten years old, just ten years old. She goes 160 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:45.000 into surgery, she comes out her vocal cords have been repaired, 161 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:48.600 but she's still not capable of speech. And she wrote 162 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:51.879 another note, get the cops, and they brought them in, 163 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:55.519 and they brought it for endsic artist. And without being 164 00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:01.559 able to speak, this little child commune cadd so well 165 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:05.360 that with the drawing they had, they knew within an 166 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.039 hour exactly who it was, and they were able to 167 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:12.919 make plans go out and arrest that man who was 168 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:21.320 planning another murder that day before he left tail. And 169 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:28.039 that was like, Wow, she is my hero. And I 170 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:29.240 had to write a story. 171 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:30.200 It was like a passion. 172 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.000 It wasn't like, oh, I really would like to write 173 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:36.000 her story, maybe kind of, it was I had to. 174 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.639 So I sat right down and I wrote the chapter. 175 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:42.919 What the few things I knew from the show i'd watched, 176 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:47.559 And I wrote the chapter. And at that time, you 177 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:50.559 weren't supposed to email anything to agents. 178 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:51.679 It all had to be. 179 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:54.639 By the regular rayel. But I thought, well, heck, you 180 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:55.759 know that hasn't been. 181 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:56.919 Working for two years. 182 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:01.240 So I sent an email to Jane Distel with the 183 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:05.000 first chapter, and within twenty four hours I was signed 184 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:09.639 up with a new agent. So then I didn't know 185 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:12.399 what to do. I mean, I really was totally ignorant 186 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:18.039 of everything to do with writing books. So she spent 187 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.240 a couple of months teaching me how to write a 188 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:24.879 proposal and making corrections, and we went back and forth 189 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.600 in the mail with this until I finally got it 190 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:31.080 to a point where she said, okay, I'll send it out. Well, 191 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:33.840 she send it, sent it out, and in a week 192 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:40.200 she got offers from two publishers for a two book deal. 193 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:43.360 So I had to pick my publisher, which was something 194 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.080 I never expected I have to do, but I picked 195 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:50.559 Saint Martin, and so there I was. You know, I 196 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:53.200 had a little bit of panic in my heart because 197 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.519 I knew I didn't know what I was doing, and 198 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.320 I also didn't have any idea what that second book 199 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:02.960 would be, and so I just got busy. I mean, 200 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.279 I just taught myself as I went. I didn't know 201 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.799 any of the rules, didn't know what I was doing, but. 202 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:10.559 I fingered it all out, you know. 203 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:14.600 I I wrote for my high school newspapers. So I 204 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:18.559 used what I learned they are from doing interviews and 205 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:23.320 a short internship at a major city newspaper to guide 206 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:26.840 me to what I needed to do. And I did 207 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.480 a lot of reading on the side, and then I 208 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:32.720 hit this one really tricky place where I didn't know 209 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:35.399 which way to turn. Somebody was asking something of me 210 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.120 that didn't really seem ethical. So I called up. 211 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:39.960 And Rule. 212 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:45.000 And Ann Rull was very very sweet. 213 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:46.279 She was very kind. 214 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:51.600 She gave me time, and she she ed me, Oh, 215 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:55.960 you're writing about that case. Oh they wanted me to 216 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:57.879 do that, but I wouldn't do it. It was going 217 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:02.200 to be two months work. And so that's whay ignorance 218 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:06.200 is bliss. You step into something that you don't know 219 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.480 because you don't realize how hard it's going to be, 220 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:13.000 but you learn the hard way, and I surely did. 221 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.039 It was a big lesson, and I'm so glad that 222 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.360 I didn't let my fears an uncertainty stop me from 223 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:25.879 doing that, because that book actually resulted in one woman 224 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:32.200 getting a new trial and being acquitted and ultimately getting 225 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:36.600 a certificate of you innocence from the State of Illinois. 226 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:40.759 And then there's another guy that was Shirly Ray. And 227 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:46.159 then there's this other guy, Rodney Lincoln, who I never 228 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:47.080 mentioned him or. 229 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:51.120 His case or anything, but because of. 230 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:54.879 The fact that is the way I described the crimes 231 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.960 and everything, and I was willing to be interviewed, and 232 00:14:58.000 --> 00:14:59.840 I said, it could have been selves. 233 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:01.720 It very well could have been Sales. 234 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:08.480 He was able to get out of prison after decades. 235 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:14.639 So it's just amazing to me that Well Sales put 236 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:17.440 it best. He says, there are a whole lot of 237 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:22.879 people in prison for crimes I committed and I don't care. 238 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:30.000 Wow, incredible. That was an incredible start to your career. 239 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:34.559 Let's talk about let's talk about Written in Blood, about 240 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:38.080 Michael Peterson, and I mentioned that for people that just 241 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:41.440 a reference Netflix the Staircase because so many people tuned 242 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:47.759 into that series. Tell us about your experience in writing 243 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:49.039 Written in Blood. 244 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.639 Well, that was back in the day when Court TV 245 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.840 was broadcasting Trials live and they podcast the whole for 246 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:03.440 our live all three and a half months. 247 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:04.399 I think it wasn't it. 248 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:09.960 And I think that even had jury selection there, Yes, 249 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:13.000 they did, but I went out for part jury selection. 250 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.600 I was there at least one week every month so 251 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.080 I could get the flavor of the of the live 252 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:25.639 and and to meet lots of people and make contacts 253 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:32.720 for interviews. And it was just fascinating Because I went there, 254 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.720 I wasn't certain of the guilt. I thought, he's a novelist. 255 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:44.679 Novelists don't kill people. Well, then the evidence started rolling in, 256 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.480 and you know, the people who were doing the original 257 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:52.720 version of the Staircase, which was a French film company, 258 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:55.039 and there's heered on Sundance. 259 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:56.759 I mean, they were. 260 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.360 So convinced that he just wasn't guilty, and they were 261 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:05.519 doing all the taping directly from the defense point of view, 262 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.960 and they didn't really care what the prosecutors wanted to 263 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:14.000 say or anything. And they left out some very vital evidence, 264 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:18.119 the evidence that I and the two nurses on the 265 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:24.799 jury both found absolutely compelling. One of them was a 266 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:31.559 thing called red neurons. Red neurons are something that form 267 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:39.559 in your brain when you slowly bleed to death. And 268 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:44.759 Kathleen had those founded autopsy. They were in her brain, 269 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:52.400 and that made a complete and total lie of everything 270 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:57.440 Michael Peterson said had happened that night, because he said 271 00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.519 it was a half hour to forty five minutes. Well, 272 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:04.759 there's neurons have never been recorded as forming in less 273 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:11.839 than two and a half hours, so that that right 274 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.559 away you got a serious problem with the evidence. And 275 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:19.319 the other thing is is they had this state witness 276 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.480 that did blind spatter and stuff like that, and he 277 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.960 was discredited for some of the things he did, and 278 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:31.559 so you can't really count anything he testified to except 279 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:36.240 to me, there was one vital thing that mattered, and 280 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:42.000 that's because he testified to something that the defense witness, 281 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:48.039 doctor Henry Lee, agreed with wholeheartedly, and that was the 282 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:52.960 fact that in that stairwell there was a point of 283 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:59.640 impact where something hit the back of Kathleen's skull in 284 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:07.519 mid air. Yeah, so you know that when the defense 285 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.519 witness supports the prosecutional witness, you know. 286 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:12.240 You've got a fact. 287 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:23.279 And I will always be convinced that Michael Peterson was 288 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.480 guilty of that crime and guilty of the murder of 289 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:32.279 Liza Ratliffe. And he you know, I talked to him 290 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:38.759 in the courtroom and he he said that in another 291 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:43.359 end review with BBC, he said that we that we 292 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:47.799 never talked, we never shared a word, and he was 293 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.079 just busy name dropping with me when he was talking 294 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:57.119 and digging for information and in his agent UH threatened 295 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:02.359 my publisher uh and said that if they published my book, 296 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.000 you know, that was it. He wouldn't get any more 297 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.160 of that guy's clients. And the agent, I can't recall 298 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:09.640 his name, but he was a big deal. 299 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.440 But but you know, I got a credit Saint Martin's. 300 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:18.119 They continued on. They didn't, They didn't pull back at all. 301 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:19.960 In fact, I didn't let me know about it until 302 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:24.640 the book was out, and and. 303 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:25.400 It was. 304 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:32.480 From what I hear on air and off air. Michael 305 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.880 Peterson disparages me everywhere he goes Lucky. 306 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:39.240 Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 307 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.480 Lucky? In line at the Delhi, I. 308 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:44.400 Guess hid in my dentist's office more than months. 309 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:46.039 Actually, do I have to say? 310 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:46.440 Yes? 311 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:46.680 You do? 312 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.400 In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 313 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.039 Really? Yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 314 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:54.400 I never went in? 315 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:54.680 Tell? 316 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:55.799 Well, there you have it. 317 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:58.680 You could get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky landsloughts dot 318 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:01.440 com play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky? 319 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.720 Nob' just necessary for my long eighteen plus terms and 320 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.880 conditions of pluss ay details. Hello, it is Ryan, and 321 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.119 we could all use an extra bright spot in our day, 322 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.440 couldn't we just to make up for things like sitting 323 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.079 in traffic, doing the dishes, counting or steps, you know, 324 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:16.640 all the mundane stuff. That is why I'm such a 325 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.759 big fan of Chumba Casino. Chumbuck Casino has all your 326 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.880 favorite social casino style games you can play for free 327 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:27.119 anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. That's your brighten your day alone, 328 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.119 actually a lot, so sign up now at Chumbuck Casino 329 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.680 dot com. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com. 330 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.240 No'll brid necessary detail where I lost the terms conditions 331 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:36.319 eighteen plus, but. 332 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.920 That's okay because I know who he is and I 333 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:39.799 know what he is. 334 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:47.359 Absolutely let's talk about another. If you can get more 335 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:49.920 controversial than that, Let's talk about one of the most 336 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:54.960 controversial cases in history, and that's the three year old 337 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.160 Kaylee Anthony's disappearance from her home in Florida in July 338 00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:02.400 two thousand and eight, subject of your book, Mommy's Little Girl. 339 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:05.920 Tell us about the writing A Mummy's Little Girl. 340 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:11.000 Well, to writing A Mommy's Little Girl was insane, absolutely insane, 341 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.079 because it was a feeding frenzy for media at the 342 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:19.680 time I was getting the backs down, but I did 343 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:24.920 manage to get some inside track on a lot of things, 344 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:28.559 and it was really good. And the prosecutor had an 345 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:33.440 interesting philosophy on making records public. He said, if I 346 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.480 give them to the defense, then I've given them the enemy, 347 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.079 so I might as well give them to public. So 348 00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:44.240 official records who are very easy to come by, and 349 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.720 as long as you got credentialed by the Die's office. 350 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.720 So I was able to do that, and I had 351 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.359 one luxury that no one else did. My book came 352 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.880 out before the trial. It was seventeen months for the trial. 353 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:07.880 So I was able to state very clearly what I 354 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:13.519 thought happened to that child, how Kasey Anthony murdered that 355 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:17.079 little girl. And I did have to put a legal 356 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:20.519 caveat in with it that the lawyer Craft did, but 357 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:24.119 still I laid it all out exactly what happened, and 358 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:29.440 the evidence was there Dan It was as clear as day. 359 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:33.720 It may have been a little complicated because sometimes scientific 360 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:38.200 reports are complicated, but the jury did not ask you 361 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:43.079 look at any of them, and by their own mouths. 362 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:49.640 In interviews after the trial. They said that the defense 363 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:55.519 raised reasonable doubt about her father. Well, that is absolutely nuts. 364 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:58.039 There was no testimonies leading to the. 365 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.599 Fact that her father might have committed crime. 366 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.599 The only thing was there was the open and closing 367 00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:09.160 statements of the defense. Opening statements and closing statements are 368 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:14.640 not evident, they are arguments. They're not supposed to be 369 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:16.160 taken as the truth. 370 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.279 And yet that jury did. 371 00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:22.920 And I am so certain of it, because I'm sorry, 372 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:27.440 they did not find her guilty of even child abuse 373 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:34.200 or neglect. And if a mother has a missing child 374 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:39.200 and does not report it for more than a month, 375 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:44.640 if that's not child abuse, it's child neglect period. 376 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:51.960 Incredible. That was an incredible case and a surprising, very 377 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:57.400 very surprising verdict. Like you say, this last effort by 378 00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:01.960 the closing statement, so nobody you had any indication. In fact, 379 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:05.799 it was the indication that she'd certainly be convicted. And 380 00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:08.440 yet a very very surprising verdict. 381 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:13.559 Yeah, you know, I've never been one of those people 382 00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:17.880 to support professional jurors, but after that trial, you know, 383 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:23.079 you start rethinking it because I just don't think that 384 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:28.240 I don't think all of that Jory understood what they 385 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:33.119 were doing and anybody on that jewelry who really understood 386 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:36.640 what they were supposed to be doing and came to 387 00:25:36.680 --> 00:25:46.359 that verdict was just not following what they needed to do. 388 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:52.119 They didn't ask for anything. No, they didn't ask for 389 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:53.880 any scientific statements. 390 00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.279 I think they tried any cypher. 391 00:25:55.640 --> 00:26:01.160 They didn't ask for a thing, and that was very, 392 00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:01.920 very troubling. 393 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:11.880 Let's talk about another troubling case here. We didn't talk 394 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:13.880 about this in an interview. I never interviewed you about 395 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:17.359 this because this is back before twenty ten. But this 396 00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.400 is a book, one of your books called Under the 397 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:26.119 Knife and Gang Failure. Had built a thriving beauty business. 398 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:31.799 There was one problem with this thriving cosmetic surgery business. 399 00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:34.880 Tell us about Under the Knife. 400 00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:44.920 Well, he was well loved by his clients and they 401 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:45.839