WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.520 Welcome to the nonprofits where today we're going to talk 2 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:08.519 about Joel Webbin and his idea on picking a doctor. Now, 3 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.599 imagine walking into a hospital and Joel Webbin is there 4 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:15.080 to help you choose your doctor based on their skin color. Because, 5 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.160 in Joel Webbin's enlightened view, years of medical school, countless 6 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:23.600 hours of training, and actual competence don't matter nearly as 7 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:26.559 much as a melanin count. Joe presumes that if a 8 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:29.440 doctor is a minority, he had a special pass through 9 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:32.920 a diversity initiative. Never mind that these same doctors may 10 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:37.359 have outperformed their peers. In Webin's world, their race automatically 11 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:40.479 makes them less qualified. It's almost as if he believes 12 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:44.200 that complex surgeries and life saving treatments are better left 13 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:48.000 to skin tone than skill. What's next, Joel, choosing your 14 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:51.640 heart surgeon based on zodiac signs, Because that's about as 15 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:54.119 logical as your line of thinking. Now, this story is 16 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:56.520 from the Angry White Men by Eyes on the Right 17 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:00.439 on August twenty third, twenty twenty four. Now I should 18 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:03.880 probably start off that, considering my history, I'm probably have 19 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:06.480 the least right of anyone on this panel to point 20 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:09.400 a finger at someone from being racist when you look 21 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.000 at my past. But I've got to admit the idea 22 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:14.959 of someone who must have gotten a free past because 23 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.920 through medical school because they're a minority does seem rather 24 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:23.519 ludicrous to me. But Aaron, now, I know the diversity 25 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:26.560 programs have come under attack and some white people are 26 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:30.640 in an uproar over their misconception that someone is getting 27 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:34.040 an advantage and they're missing out on it. But speaking 28 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:36.760 out of missing out on things, what are they missing 29 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:37.599 in this situation? 30 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:41.799 Well, if we kind of if we assume, let's assume 31 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.280 a second, that they're not being racist, Okay, at least 32 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:47.719 on purpose. Let's assume that they really have genuine concerns 33 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:52.359 that minority students are being given slots that they don't 34 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:57.200 that they don't deserve quote unquote unquote affirmative essentially affirmative action. Right, 35 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.079 you look at admissions to colleges, going to see is like, uh, 36 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.319 why students are favored more than other students, that minorities 37 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:08.159 are not getting uh into school in at the rates 38 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:11.400 you would expect to see, and that affirmative action is 39 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:14.000 supposed to supposed to fix that. In this article, he 40 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:17.560 keeps saying that they get that these docters get free passes. 41 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:19.759 There's no I think what they're missing is there's no 42 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:24.080 free pass. Just because you were a beneficiary of affirmative 43 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:28.319 action doesn't mean that you didn't have to study, you 44 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.159 didn't have to work hard, you still didn't have to 45 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:32.240 have a good GPA, you still didn't have to have 46 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:34.479 good test scores. It doesn't mean they just said, well, 47 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:37.159 here's this, here's the student that got straight f's because 48 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:38.560 of a firm of action, we're gonna let them into 49 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:41.080 medical school. And I think that's what they're missing, is 50 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:44.879 that even though the admissions process is may not be 51 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:49.080 may may might be as objective as we want it 52 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:52.400 to be, it is still uh the people that are 53 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:54.919 getting admitted are still qualified to be where they are 54 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.280 and are still qualified to get into the school. 55 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:01.039 In my opinion, I think you're you're right there. I 56 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:04.960 think that it's really an oversimplification of things. Yeah, and 57 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.240 you know, and I think that they're overlooking a lot 58 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:10.719 when they say that, because it's not like you get 59 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:12.840 to get out of jail free card, and every time 60 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:15.439 you fail the test, you're like, oh, you know, I 61 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.680 got my free pass, so go ahead and give me 62 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:19.400 an a and let me get through this exactly. 63 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:21.879 That's that's not what that is not what's happening. 64 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:25.479 That's not that is no, not at all now, aj 65 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:30.159 You know, earlier we talked about someone who wanted the 66 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.800 redefined faith out of Christianity. Now, is this a case 67 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.599 of someone wanting to redefine racism out of their discriminate 68 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:39.560 tour behavior? What do you think? 69 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:42.879 Yeah, I think that's definitely the case. You know, his 70 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:46.759 wife was giving him some options, you know, while looking 71 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.919 for a cardiologists, because he said he hasn't heard issus. 72 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:54.280 And his comment to her was, well, when was a 73 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:56.759 young white dude, and when was a young black dude? 74 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:58.919 And I say that I prefer the young white dude 75 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:01.439 because if they it's a chance that one of them 76 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.199 was not qualified and was given a free pass, it 77 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.680 would be a black guy. That is exactly what he said. 78 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:09.680 But don't worry because he's not racist, because he said 79 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:12.840 that he would choose an Asian doctor over a black one. 80 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:15.639 So yeah, that gives him a free pass. 81 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:18.439 Well, you know, at least he didn't say, well, you know, 82 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.879 some of our best friends are black. You know, that's 83 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:23.319 that's usually what we hear after something like that. But 84 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:27.040 Damian switching over to you, you know, and one thing 85 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:29.279 that I want to say off the top is I 86 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:32.439 understand it's important to have a doctor that you're comfortable with. 87 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:36.279 You know, I know that for me, race doesn't play 88 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:40.160 into what I find is important. But I have criteria too, 89 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:43.360 So how often do you think race is the thing 90 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.519 that plays into decisions when when people are choosing a 91 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:47.839 doctor or someone like this. 92 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:50.959 Well, I'm glad you are glad you ass that because 93 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:54.040 in my part of Australia, I live in a very 94 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:59.040 very multicultural city where you can, like, if you name 95 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:01.839 a nationality, you know, if you look far enough, you'll 96 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:04.920 probably find a doctor of that nationality. And in my 97 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:08.079 part of my city there are a lot of Indian 98 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:11.839 and Asian and African doctors because in my part of 99 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:14.439 the world there are lots of African and Asian and 100 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:18.199 you know, Indian Indian people. So I don't think it's 101 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:24.720 a crime to want to be treated by a practitioner 102 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:30.240 that you feel culturally comfortable with. I think I think 103 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:34.319 the bigger I think maybe it does become somewhat offensive 104 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:42.079 is if you disparage the abilities of these doctors simply 105 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:45.680 because of because of their culture. You know, if if 106 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:49.439 if an Indian, if an Indian doctor who doesn't speak English, 107 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:53.399 that well, you know, if you're disparaged like that, that 108 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:56.680 that guy could like really know his stuff. But just 109 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:00.160 because he doesn't speak English fluently, you know, it can 110 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:01.959 lead to a perception that he doesn't know what he 111 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.160 doesn't know what he's doing. But yeah, I think that's 112 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:07.079 where and so I do want to say that weapons 113 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:12.000 reasoning is not completely without merit, because we do know 114 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:17.800 that people of certain races are given advantages not afforded 115 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:22.360 to people of other races. However, however, does that mean 116 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:26.000 that a black doctor hasn't passed all their tests and 117 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:29.800 hasn't got gone through all the training, because it would 118 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:35.839 essentially be medical negligence if a certifying board gave a 119 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.839 black person a pass that they wouldn't give to a 120 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.120 white person and then that underqualified black person went out 121 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:46.360 and made a mistake of some sort. So I think, 122 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.879 you know, in terms of entry to the courses, maybe 123 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.040 there is some sort of affirmative action. But my hope 124 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:58.160 is that the certifying boards all get treat to everyone equally. 125 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:01.319 And so I think That's probably where where webon kind 126 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.160 of does fall over a bit, is that, you know, Okay, 127 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:07.560 people get into these high level classes maybe with some 128 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:11.680 affirmative action, but do they qualify with affirmative action as well. 129 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:13.959 I'm not sure that they. I'm not sure that they do, 130 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.079 and I think it would be a case of medical 131 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:18.480 negligence if they did. 132 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:21.319 I think that there could be like schools that look 133 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.800 for students with diversity, like you know, to fill up 134 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:28.040 those those quarters that they may have, But I don't 135 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:31.000 think that is necessarily the case when when they're graduating 136 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:34.079 from medical school, like you said, when they're going to 137 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.439 certify it, and then you need to have a specific 138 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:38.959 standard that you meet and you know, and then make it. It's 139 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.319 I'm a Hispanic and I speak Spanish, So if I 140 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.639 pick the doctor because they speak Spanish, then you know, 141 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:47.439 that's fine. But if I went and said, well, I'm 142 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.360 not going to pick a doctor because he's black and 143 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:51.720 maybe you've got a free pass, I will say that 144 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:53.600 would definitely be considered racist. 145 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.160 Okay, so I say that. So let's say that you 146 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.759 go to a doctor, to a clinic and there is 147 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:04.079 a white doctor who's you know, let's let's say it's 148 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.639 Billy Bob, who who's a redneck? And you have who 149 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.399 is who's Spanish? Who would you be more comfortable with. 150 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:14.439 Well, at this point, I actually speak English better than Spanish, 151 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:18.120 so I would quet somebody that I can communicate better with. Yeah, 152 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:21.560 so I can see like his you know what, he's 153 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:25.199 what you were saying earlier about choosing somebody that that 154 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:26.720 you could fit with, right. 155 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:32.000 But especially especially if you're going to evolve personal medical details, 156 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:35.720 and that may involve talking about your genitalia or some 157 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:38.600 some very personal part of your of your of your body, 158 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:41.960 you know, if you don't feel comfortable talking about that thing. 159 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.799 And one of the factors is, you know, it is 160 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:47.759 race and culture, and. 161 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:49.679 In that sense, you're going to be seen as sexist 162 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:51.519 if you if I chose a woman or if you 163 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:53.840 chose a man, you can be you know, sexist. But 164 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.399 truly it's just what you feel more comfortable with. I 165 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:58.879 don't think in the case of women, it was it 166 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:02.559 was that comfortable level of somebody that he felt comfortable 167 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:04.840 with in a matter of culture. For him, it was 168 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:06.840 more like, well, this person probably got a free. 169 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:11.840 Pass, you know. I do think that from taking me personally. 170 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:15.399 One of the things that I like about a doctor, 171 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.200 and that decides whether I go back to them, is 172 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:22.639 do I feel comfortable that they're being straightforward. My general practitioner, 173 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.200 the only time I hear anybody in his office speaking 174 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.879 English is when they're talking to me or my wife, 175 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:32.559 because almost all his patients are Spanish. But I appreciate 176 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:35.360 his honesty because for the last three years, the first 177 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:38.799 two years, every time I saw him, my doctor said, 178 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:42.519 you're mister Carroll, You're You're going to die from this. 179 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:44.399 This is going to kill you. And he was always 180 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.200 important to remind me of that because he wanted me 181 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:49.399 to make sure I took it serious. I had no 182 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:53.080 objection to that because I appreciated that straightforward nature, just 183 00:09:53.159 --> 00:09:56.200 as with my gi he told me he and I 184 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:59.200 talked about because I'm big on right to death with dignity. 185 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:01.639 He said, yeah, I ever died, I'm going to go 186 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:04.960 to California, where I can go whatever drugs I need, 187 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.039 and I can pitch a tent wherever I want to, 188 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:08.840 and I can take a shit in the street, and 189 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:11.279 I can go ahead and die and comfort. So I 190 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.159 appreciate them. He's of India by the way, and I 191 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.440 appreciate them because we have a straightforward relationship, and I 192 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.120 get that if that's about race or a woman or 193 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:22.879 a man, I think people should have the right to 194 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.759 make that choice. But it still doesn't change the fact 195 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.440 that if you're doing it solely based on the color 196 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:33.799 of their skin, are certain aspects you're probably being racist 197 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.240 about it. But I would like to go ahead and 198 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:38.039 switch to. 199 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:40.080 AJ. 200 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:44.559 Do you think that a firm one of the things 201 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:46.240 is that, Well, actually, you know what, let me ask 202 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:49.000 you this first. The interviews interview are seeing them imply 203 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:51.519 that perhaps slavery was not a sin, or at least 204 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:53.919 that's how I took it. How did you come away 205 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.759 from that topic? Is he to the point where his 206 00:10:57.080 --> 00:11:01.720 justification of these actions also, uh doesn't the Bible? Does 207 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:04.559 the Bible condemn slavery? Or is he right there? Well? 208 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:09.639 Eric con was actually the person interviewing during the interview here, 209 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:14.720 and he came to Joggle's rescue by offering his insight. 210 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.759 He said, have we even defined the sin? Clearly? I 211 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:22.080 think you guys have shown that we haven't. But if 212 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.960 we haven't defined the sin as a biblical sin, why 213 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:28.759 is it to the level of is it really like 214 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:33.000 that penalty sin? You a chulter's view to do or 215 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:36.759 say anything that's racist, and we have to ask how 216 00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:40.559 we got to that place. That was his question. He's 217 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:45.080 basically saying that racism should not be considered a sin 218 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.679 because it's not considered a sin in the Bible. So 219 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.519 with Eric's reasoning, we basically should be able to bring 220 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.320 back slavery too, because it isn't a biblical sin, and 221 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.919 apparently anything that isn't a biblical sin should be allowed 222 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.120 even in our modern culture. So we can give Joel 223 00:12:04.279 --> 00:12:08.279 a free pass, as the children's song says, because the 224 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:09.159 Bible tells me. 225 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:09.320 So. 226 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.919 Yeah, you know, I found that very disturbing. More disturbing 227 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:17.159 than Joel choosing a doctor out of a photograph because 228 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:19.399 it was lighter than the guy and the other photograph. 229 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:22.360 It is the fact that this, since it's not it's 230 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:25.240 not really a sin, everything should be okay. You know, 231 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:27.399 I know I've seen the meme, and I once again, 232 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:29.279 I hate to break your life down to a meme 233 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:31.600 where it says, you know, let's play a game, you know, 234 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:34.080 let's open our Bible and pick a sin, and we'll 235 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.679 all go out and do what the Bible says to 236 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:39.440 not do, I mean to do and don't sin, but 237 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:41.519 do what the Bible says to do, and let's see 238 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:44.360 who gets arrested first. So yeah, that seems like a 239 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:48.639 pretty bad advice, a pretty bad suggestion. So Aaron, I 240 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.240 wanted to switch over to you for a moment. What 241 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:53.000 do you think what do you see as methods to 242 00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:56.000 try to counter because there is a reality that there 243 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:59.600 is systemic discrimination in our society and has been for 244 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:01.360 a long time time. What do you think some of 245 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.120 those methods we could use to counter that. 246 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.320 As far as getting to schools, I'm not quite sure 247 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:10.000 how you do that. It's a really tough problem because 248 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:12.799 a lot of a colle of admissions now well they 249 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:15.080 used to Becket when I was applying to college, you 250 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:18.120 had to take a standardized test, the SAT or the ACT. 251 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:20.240 Just you know that. That's to get into undergraduate and 252 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.320 then to believe to get into medical school and other schools. 253 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.519 There are other tests to become a lawyer, become a 254 00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:27.799 doctor that you have to take, and those are the 255 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:31.559 most objective tests measures we have. But people get into school. 256 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:35.960 But unfortunately tests aren't one hundred percent reliable. Some people 257 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:39.279 test really well, some people don't. Some people are really 258 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.000 smart and are awful at tests, and vice versa, you know. 259 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:45.919 And so there's more to admission college admissions than just 260 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:50.759 test scores or even GPAs. Maybe you were on tracking 261 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:53.919 at a four poto GPA and your junior year in 262 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.799 high school you got mono right, and you couldn't do 263 00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:58.960 work for a whole semester and got a bunch of c's, 264 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:01.000 But then the rest of your high school you got 265 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.600 you go, you were straight a's, right. So there's there's 266 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:06.919 more life than just these than just these objective measures. 267 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:08.840 I don't know what the right solution is, because if 268 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:11.600 you just go to subjective measures, then you've got problems 269 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.399 where people look at names. They've got maybe some race 270 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:18.120 suspense that they don't know about, some unknown biases, and 271 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.440 they see names from certain races and like, oh, let's 272 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:23.919 not admit them, but let's let's stick to the white names, 273 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.519 so to speak, you know, And that's that's up to 274 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:29.240 college admissions people to figure out and solve. I think 275 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:32.399 that one of my favorite stories about overcoming this this 276 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:35.759 kind of prejudice that that gets built in are comes 277 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.279 from the world of symphonies. You know, for a long time, 278 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:42.039 symphonies were predominantly white and male. And at some point, 279 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:44.240 I don't know how long ago, and this I think 280 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:47.240 it's been in this past fifty hundred years, people realize, hey, 281 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:48.600 we need to solve this problem because there are a 282 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.440 lot of good musicians that aren't white and that aren't male. 283 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:53.159 What do I do about it? Well, what they did 284 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:57.799 was they made people audition blind blindly. So if you 285 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:00.440 were an auditioned for a symphony, were you auditioned behind curtain 286 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:02.919 so nobody can see what sex you were, what race 287 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.720 you were, what gender you were. All they could judge 288 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:07.919 you on was the quality of your music. And that 289 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:13.000 solved the inclusivity problem in symphonies. And it's really clever 290 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:15.960 solutions like that that I think need to be put 291 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.639 in place for college admissions. I don't know what they are, 292 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.519 that's not my field, but something akin to the to 293 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.919 what symphonies do I think would be would be amazing. 294 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:26.600 That's what Infidel just said. You know, he looked at 295 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:28.679 a photo of a black guy and a white guy 296 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:30.320 and he said, I'm going to go with the white 297 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.519 guy just because he's white. He didn't look at what 298 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.559 school he graduated from. He didn't look at this specific 299 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:39.440 you know, specialty in cardiology that he was looking for, 300 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:42.360 like say, if you go with a congenital health disorder 301 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:44.399 or what an acquire how diseased, then you're going to 302 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:46.639 go to a different type of cardiologist, like he just 303 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.000 chose based on skin color. 304 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.639 Actually, I think the most disturbing like this hasn't been 305 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.080 brought up. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up. But 306 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.360 I think the most disturbing part of this whole story 307 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:01.240 is that why hasn't he about it? Why is he 308 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:04.960 going to a cardiologist for treatment rather than just fasting 309 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.320 and praying to the Lord to God to heal him 310 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:09.279 not doing that? 311 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.519 I think at this point it's timeing to say the 312 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:16.360 ACA does not support thoughts and prayers over going to 313 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:23.360 your local doctors. Now, on a more serious note, do 314 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:27.440 you think, Damien, do you think that affirmative action programs 315 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:29.720 like this? Do you do you think that Joel has 316 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:32.240 a point and do you think that they do cause 317 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:36.120 or allow people who are less competent to become doctors 318 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:39.919 or do you think that he's just perhaps trying to 319 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:41.799 cover his own view his own. 320 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:46.919 I'm a little bit both ways on it. Like I 321 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:51.960 don't have a problem with ethnic minorities being given having 322 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:58.120 opportunities open up to them, particularly if they are talented 323 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.919 or smart or whatever. Like if if a person who 324 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:06.359 is intelligent and switched on is denied an opportunity simply 325 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.640 because of their race, I think that's that's that's a 326 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:12.200 great injustice as well. I'm also I'm also however, I 327 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.880 also think these kind of things should be meritocracies, where 328 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.400 you know, we are literally dealing with people's lives here, 329 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:25.039 and so yeah, like I suppose my hope is that 330 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:29.480 the race of the person doesn't matter. It's their training 331 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:34.160 and their dedication to professionalism that does. And so yeah, 332 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:38.480 it's like I hope that a black person doesn't get 333 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:40.799 into a course simply because they're black. That will be 334 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:43.640 that will be a bad outcome. I want a black 335 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.640 person to get into a cardioli to be a cardiologist 336 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.279 because that's where their passion is and that they've earned 337 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.119 the right to be a professional cardiologist. 338 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.160 You know, I talk to you guys previously about my 339 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.640 history and my past. I work for a in the 340 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.559 night early late eighties, early nineties, I worked for a 341 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.799 very openly racist ex clan member in Louisiana for about 342 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:10.519 three years, and what strikes me odd though, is that 343 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:13.640 I'm seeing more and more things that we knew better 344 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.559 to say than then. We knew not to say these things, 345 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.119 and now we seem to have people saying things like 346 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.559 this with no sense of self awareness. Turning to you, AJ, 347 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.000 do you think that this is the result of the 348 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:28.920 normalization of the divisive rhetoric that we've seen in the 349 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.559 last four or five years when it comes to race, 350 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.759 when it comes to women, when it comes to the 351 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:38.720 LGBTQ plus community, and of course particularly trans people. Have 352 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:41.200 we got to the point where there's a certain level 353 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.640 of what I would view as shamelessness. That's the new normal, 354 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:45.079 you know. 355 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.279 I think that the more we talk about these issues, 356 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:52.000 and the more we bring up awareness of transspeople, of 357 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:56.960 gay people, of even people of color, then we will 358 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:01.640 see better acceptance. But there is such a big pushback 359 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.240 from this. I don't want to call it in traditions 360 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:07.079 because I don't think it said tradition. It's more of 361 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.200 a yeah, like I said, normalizing being racist, and because 362 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.440 you know, we come from like hundreds of years of slavery, 363 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:19.160 So it hasn't been that long that we have abolished slavery. 364 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:23.440 So I would say I hope that it's not expected 365 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:26.960 to continue, but I will say that I am not 366 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:29.119 surprised that it is still here. 367 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.519 Yeah, I wish I could be surprised, but you know, 368 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.160 I'm not. Now. Aaron part of me feels like that 369 00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:39.960 Joel did the black doctor a favor by not choosing 370 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.920 him as a doctor, by not being his patient patient, 371 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:43.759 what do you think? 372 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.960 I think I kind of agree with Damide, like if 373 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.920 you're not if you're not comfortable with a doctor because 374 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.279 of the race, then yeah, you're probably doing yourself a 375 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:55.559 service and that doctor service by not being their patient. 376 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.359 I think this person just needs to think about why 377 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.559 they hold this opinion that they're that they hold. Why 378 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:06.519 do they think this doctor got a free pass? Like 379 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:10.119 the words that he's using, the way he's describing things 380 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.720 isn't I don't think the way the world works, and 381 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:15.720 so he's he's got kind of a skewed worldview, and 382 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:17.960 I think that's what he needs to really think about 383 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:22.680 and understand why he thinks that black doctors get free passes, 384 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.359 because I think that's the underlying racist message is not 385 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:26.960 when you think about its like, well, why do you 386 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.960 think black doctors get free passes? Well, that must mean 387 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.000 you think black doctors are incompetent just because they're black. 388 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:36.079 And that's that's the racist part that we're talking about here. 389 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.839 It's it's not he's not choosing this doctor because he's 390 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.400 more comfortable with a black doctor or culturally, or that 391 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:43.319 he thinks that's a better fit. He thinks that their 392 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:47.079 doctor is somehow just not as capable of being a doctor. 393 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.599 Yeah, and I agree because and he mentioned that if 394 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.720 it was a black doctor that he knew that was 395 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.960 in his church, he might choose them. And so while 396 00:20:55.960 --> 00:21:00.000 that implies a certain level of comfort, it also says 397 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:02.519 is that, well, if I know the guy and you 398 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:05.240 know he's one of the exceptions, is almost what that 399 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:08.440 sounds like. And that's a whole other issue, because then 400 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:12.400 once again you're you're you're labeling everyone with a broad brush. 401 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.960