Speaker 1: Welcome to the nonprofits where today we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about Joel Webbin and his idea on picking a doctor. Now,
Speaker 1: imagine walking into a hospital and Joel Webbin is there
Speaker 1: to help you choose your doctor based on their skin color. Because,
Speaker 1: in Joel Webbin's enlightened view, years of medical school, countless
Speaker 1: hours of training, and actual competence don't matter nearly as
Speaker 1: much as a melanin count. Joe presumes that if a
Speaker 1: doctor is a minority, he had a special pass through
Speaker 1: a diversity initiative. Never mind that these same doctors may
Speaker 1: have outperformed their peers. In Webin's world, their race automatically
Speaker 1: makes them less qualified. It's almost as if he believes
Speaker 1: that complex surgeries and life saving treatments are better left
Speaker 1: to skin tone than skill. What's next, Joel, choosing your
Speaker 1: heart surgeon based on zodiac signs, Because that's about as
Speaker 1: logical as your line of thinking. Now, this story is
Speaker 1: from the Angry White Men by Eyes on the Right
Speaker 1: on August twenty third, twenty twenty four. Now I should
Speaker 1: probably start off that, considering my history, I'm probably have
Speaker 1: the least right of anyone on this panel to point
Speaker 1: a finger at someone from being racist when you look
Speaker 1: at my past. But I've got to admit the idea
Speaker 1: of someone who must have gotten a free past because
Speaker 1: through medical school because they're a minority does seem rather
Speaker 1: ludicrous to me. But Aaron, now, I know the diversity
Speaker 1: programs have come under attack and some white people are
Speaker 1: in an uproar over their misconception that someone is getting
Speaker 1: an advantage and they're missing out on it. But speaking
Speaker 1: out of missing out on things, what are they missing
Speaker 1: in this situation?
Speaker 2: Well, if we kind of if we assume, let's assume
Speaker 2: a second, that they're not being racist, Okay, at least
Speaker 2: on purpose. Let's assume that they really have genuine concerns
Speaker 2: that minority students are being given slots that they don't
Speaker 2: that they don't deserve quote unquote unquote affirmative essentially affirmative action. Right,
Speaker 2: you look at admissions to colleges, going to see is like, uh,
Speaker 2: why students are favored more than other students, that minorities
Speaker 2: are not getting uh into school in at the rates
Speaker 2: you would expect to see, and that affirmative action is
Speaker 2: supposed to supposed to fix that. In this article, he
Speaker 2: keeps saying that they get that these docters get free passes.
Speaker 2: There's no I think what they're missing is there's no
Speaker 2: free pass. Just because you were a beneficiary of affirmative
Speaker 2: action doesn't mean that you didn't have to study, you
Speaker 2: didn't have to work hard, you still didn't have to
Speaker 2: have a good GPA, you still didn't have to have
Speaker 2: good test scores. It doesn't mean they just said, well,
Speaker 2: here's this, here's the student that got straight f's because
Speaker 2: of a firm of action, we're gonna let them into
Speaker 2: medical school. And I think that's what they're missing, is
Speaker 2: that even though the admissions process is may not be
Speaker 2: may may might be as objective as we want it
Speaker 2: to be, it is still uh the people that are
Speaker 2: getting admitted are still qualified to be where they are
Speaker 2: and are still qualified to get into the school.
Speaker 1: In my opinion, I think you're you're right there. I
Speaker 1: think that it's really an oversimplification of things. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, and I think that they're overlooking a lot
Speaker 1: when they say that, because it's not like you get
Speaker 1: to get out of jail free card, and every time
Speaker 1: you fail the test, you're like, oh, you know, I
Speaker 1: got my free pass, so go ahead and give me
Speaker 1: an a and let me get through this exactly.
Speaker 2: That's that's not what that is not what's happening.
Speaker 1: That's not that is no, not at all now, aj
Speaker 1: You know, earlier we talked about someone who wanted the
Speaker 1: redefined faith out of Christianity. Now, is this a case
Speaker 1: of someone wanting to redefine racism out of their discriminate
Speaker 1: tour behavior? What do you think?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's definitely the case. You know, his
Speaker 3: wife was giving him some options, you know, while looking
Speaker 3: for a cardiologists, because he said he hasn't heard issus.
Speaker 3: And his comment to her was, well, when was a
Speaker 3: young white dude, and when was a young black dude?
Speaker 3: And I say that I prefer the young white dude
Speaker 3: because if they it's a chance that one of them
Speaker 3: was not qualified and was given a free pass, it
Speaker 3: would be a black guy. That is exactly what he said.
Speaker 3: But don't worry because he's not racist, because he said
Speaker 3: that he would choose an Asian doctor over a black one.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that gives him a free pass.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, at least he didn't say, well, you know,
Speaker 1: some of our best friends are black. You know, that's
Speaker 1: that's usually what we hear after something like that. But
Speaker 1: Damian switching over to you, you know, and one thing
Speaker 1: that I want to say off the top is I
Speaker 1: understand it's important to have a doctor that you're comfortable with.
Speaker 1: You know, I know that for me, race doesn't play
Speaker 1: into what I find is important. But I have criteria too,
Speaker 1: So how often do you think race is the thing
Speaker 1: that plays into decisions when when people are choosing a
Speaker 1: doctor or someone like this.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad you are glad you ass that because
Speaker 4: in my part of Australia, I live in a very
Speaker 4: very multicultural city where you can, like, if you name
Speaker 4: a nationality, you know, if you look far enough, you'll
Speaker 4: probably find a doctor of that nationality. And in my
Speaker 4: part of my city there are a lot of Indian
Speaker 4: and Asian and African doctors because in my part of
Speaker 4: the world there are lots of African and Asian and
Speaker 4: you know, Indian Indian people. So I don't think it's
Speaker 4: a crime to want to be treated by a practitioner
Speaker 4: that you feel culturally comfortable with. I think I think
Speaker 4: the bigger I think maybe it does become somewhat offensive
Speaker 4: is if you disparage the abilities of these doctors simply
Speaker 4: because of because of their culture. You know, if if
Speaker 4: if an Indian, if an Indian doctor who doesn't speak English,
Speaker 4: that well, you know, if you're disparaged like that, that
Speaker 4: that guy could like really know his stuff. But just
Speaker 4: because he doesn't speak English fluently, you know, it can
Speaker 4: lead to a perception that he doesn't know what he
Speaker 4: doesn't know what he's doing. But yeah, I think that's
Speaker 4: where and so I do want to say that weapons
Speaker 4: reasoning is not completely without merit, because we do know
Speaker 4: that people of certain races are given advantages not afforded
Speaker 4: to people of other races. However, however, does that mean
Speaker 4: that a black doctor hasn't passed all their tests and
Speaker 4: hasn't got gone through all the training, because it would
Speaker 4: essentially be medical negligence if a certifying board gave a
Speaker 4: black person a pass that they wouldn't give to a
Speaker 4: white person and then that underqualified black person went out
Speaker 4: and made a mistake of some sort. So I think,
Speaker 4: you know, in terms of entry to the courses, maybe
Speaker 4: there is some sort of affirmative action. But my hope
Speaker 4: is that the certifying boards all get treat to everyone equally.
Speaker 4: And so I think That's probably where where webon kind
Speaker 4: of does fall over a bit, is that, you know, Okay,
Speaker 4: people get into these high level classes maybe with some
Speaker 4: affirmative action, but do they qualify with affirmative action as well.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure that they. I'm not sure that they do,
Speaker 4: and I think it would be a case of medical
Speaker 4: negligence if they did.
Speaker 3: I think that there could be like schools that look
Speaker 3: for students with diversity, like you know, to fill up
Speaker 3: those those quarters that they may have, But I don't
Speaker 3: think that is necessarily the case when when they're graduating
Speaker 3: from medical school, like you said, when they're going to
Speaker 3: certify it, and then you need to have a specific
Speaker 3: standard that you meet and you know, and then make it. It's
Speaker 3: I'm a Hispanic and I speak Spanish, So if I
Speaker 3: pick the doctor because they speak Spanish, then you know,
Speaker 3: that's fine. But if I went and said, well, I'm
Speaker 3: not going to pick a doctor because he's black and
Speaker 3: maybe you've got a free pass, I will say that
Speaker 3: would definitely be considered racist.
Speaker 4: Okay, so I say that. So let's say that you
Speaker 4: go to a doctor, to a clinic and there is
Speaker 4: a white doctor who's you know, let's let's say it's
Speaker 4: Billy Bob, who who's a redneck? And you have who
Speaker 4: is who's Spanish? Who would you be more comfortable with.
Speaker 3: Well, at this point, I actually speak English better than Spanish,
Speaker 3: so I would quet somebody that I can communicate better with. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so I can see like his you know what, he's
Speaker 3: what you were saying earlier about choosing somebody that that
Speaker 3: you could fit with, right.
Speaker 4: But especially especially if you're going to evolve personal medical details,
Speaker 4: and that may involve talking about your genitalia or some
Speaker 4: some very personal part of your of your of your body,
Speaker 4: you know, if you don't feel comfortable talking about that thing.
Speaker 4: And one of the factors is, you know, it is
Speaker 4: race and culture, and.
Speaker 3: In that sense, you're going to be seen as sexist
Speaker 3: if you if I chose a woman or if you
Speaker 3: chose a man, you can be you know, sexist. But
Speaker 3: truly it's just what you feel more comfortable with. I
Speaker 3: don't think in the case of women, it was it
Speaker 3: was that comfortable level of somebody that he felt comfortable
Speaker 3: with in a matter of culture. For him, it was
Speaker 3: more like, well, this person probably got a free.
Speaker 1: Pass, you know. I do think that from taking me personally.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I like about a doctor,
Speaker 1: and that decides whether I go back to them, is
Speaker 1: do I feel comfortable that they're being straightforward. My general practitioner,
Speaker 1: the only time I hear anybody in his office speaking
Speaker 1: English is when they're talking to me or my wife,
Speaker 1: because almost all his patients are Spanish. But I appreciate
Speaker 1: his honesty because for the last three years, the first
Speaker 1: two years, every time I saw him, my doctor said,
Speaker 1: you're mister Carroll, You're You're going to die from this.
Speaker 1: This is going to kill you. And he was always
Speaker 1: important to remind me of that because he wanted me
Speaker 1: to make sure I took it serious. I had no
Speaker 1: objection to that because I appreciated that straightforward nature, just
Speaker 1: as with my gi he told me he and I
Speaker 1: talked about because I'm big on right to death with dignity.
Speaker 1: He said, yeah, I ever died, I'm going to go
Speaker 1: to California, where I can go whatever drugs I need,
Speaker 1: and I can pitch a tent wherever I want to,
Speaker 1: and I can take a shit in the street, and
Speaker 1: I can go ahead and die and comfort. So I
Speaker 1: appreciate them. He's of India by the way, and I
Speaker 1: appreciate them because we have a straightforward relationship, and I
Speaker 1: get that if that's about race or a woman or
Speaker 1: a man, I think people should have the right to
Speaker 1: make that choice. But it still doesn't change the fact
Speaker 1: that if you're doing it solely based on the color
Speaker 1: of their skin, are certain aspects you're probably being racist
Speaker 1: about it. But I would like to go ahead and
Speaker 1: switch to.
Speaker 3: AJ.
Speaker 1: Do you think that a firm one of the things
Speaker 1: is that, Well, actually, you know what, let me ask
Speaker 1: you this first. The interviews interview are seeing them imply
Speaker 1: that perhaps slavery was not a sin, or at least
Speaker 1: that's how I took it. How did you come away
Speaker 1: from that topic? Is he to the point where his
Speaker 1: justification of these actions also, uh doesn't the Bible? Does
Speaker 1: the Bible condemn slavery? Or is he right there? Well?
Speaker 3: Eric con was actually the person interviewing during the interview here,
Speaker 3: and he came to Joggle's rescue by offering his insight.
Speaker 3: He said, have we even defined the sin? Clearly? I
Speaker 3: think you guys have shown that we haven't. But if
Speaker 3: we haven't defined the sin as a biblical sin, why
Speaker 3: is it to the level of is it really like
Speaker 3: that penalty sin? You a chulter's view to do or
Speaker 3: say anything that's racist, and we have to ask how
Speaker 3: we got to that place. That was his question. He's
Speaker 3: basically saying that racism should not be considered a sin
Speaker 3: because it's not considered a sin in the Bible. So
Speaker 3: with Eric's reasoning, we basically should be able to bring
Speaker 3: back slavery too, because it isn't a biblical sin, and
Speaker 3: apparently anything that isn't a biblical sin should be allowed
Speaker 3: even in our modern culture. So we can give Joel
Speaker 3: a free pass, as the children's song says, because the
Speaker 3: Bible tells me.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I found that very disturbing. More disturbing
Speaker 1: than Joel choosing a doctor out of a photograph because
Speaker 1: it was lighter than the guy and the other photograph.
Speaker 1: It is the fact that this, since it's not it's
Speaker 1: not really a sin, everything should be okay. You know,
Speaker 1: I know I've seen the meme, and I once again,
Speaker 1: I hate to break your life down to a meme
Speaker 1: where it says, you know, let's play a game, you know,
Speaker 1: let's open our Bible and pick a sin, and we'll
Speaker 1: all go out and do what the Bible says to
Speaker 1: not do, I mean to do and don't sin, but
Speaker 1: do what the Bible says to do, and let's see
Speaker 1: who gets arrested first. So yeah, that seems like a
Speaker 1: pretty bad advice, a pretty bad suggestion. So Aaron, I
Speaker 1: wanted to switch over to you for a moment. What
Speaker 1: do you think what do you see as methods to
Speaker 1: try to counter because there is a reality that there
Speaker 1: is systemic discrimination in our society and has been for
Speaker 1: a long time time. What do you think some of
Speaker 1: those methods we could use to counter that.
Speaker 2: As far as getting to schools, I'm not quite sure
Speaker 2: how you do that. It's a really tough problem because
Speaker 2: a lot of a colle of admissions now well they
Speaker 2: used to Becket when I was applying to college, you
Speaker 2: had to take a standardized test, the SAT or the ACT.
Speaker 2: Just you know that. That's to get into undergraduate and
Speaker 2: then to believe to get into medical school and other schools.
Speaker 2: There are other tests to become a lawyer, become a
Speaker 2: doctor that you have to take, and those are the
Speaker 2: most objective tests measures we have. But people get into school.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately tests aren't one hundred percent reliable. Some people
Speaker 2: test really well, some people don't. Some people are really
Speaker 2: smart and are awful at tests, and vice versa, you know.
Speaker 2: And so there's more to admission college admissions than just
Speaker 2: test scores or even GPAs. Maybe you were on tracking
Speaker 2: at a four poto GPA and your junior year in
Speaker 2: high school you got mono right, and you couldn't do
Speaker 2: work for a whole semester and got a bunch of c's,
Speaker 2: But then the rest of your high school you got
Speaker 2: you go, you were straight a's, right. So there's there's
Speaker 2: more life than just these than just these objective measures.
Speaker 2: I don't know what the right solution is, because if
Speaker 2: you just go to subjective measures, then you've got problems
Speaker 2: where people look at names. They've got maybe some race
Speaker 2: suspense that they don't know about, some unknown biases, and
Speaker 2: they see names from certain races and like, oh, let's
Speaker 2: not admit them, but let's let's stick to the white names,
Speaker 2: so to speak, you know, And that's that's up to
Speaker 2: college admissions people to figure out and solve. I think
Speaker 2: that one of my favorite stories about overcoming this this
Speaker 2: kind of prejudice that that gets built in are comes
Speaker 2: from the world of symphonies. You know, for a long time,
Speaker 2: symphonies were predominantly white and male. And at some point,
Speaker 2: I don't know how long ago, and this I think
Speaker 2: it's been in this past fifty hundred years, people realize, hey,
Speaker 2: we need to solve this problem because there are a
Speaker 2: lot of good musicians that aren't white and that aren't male.
Speaker 2: What do I do about it? Well, what they did
Speaker 2: was they made people audition blind blindly. So if you
Speaker 2: were an auditioned for a symphony, were you auditioned behind curtain
Speaker 2: so nobody can see what sex you were, what race
Speaker 2: you were, what gender you were. All they could judge
Speaker 2: you on was the quality of your music. And that
Speaker 2: solved the inclusivity problem in symphonies. And it's really clever
Speaker 2: solutions like that that I think need to be put
Speaker 2: in place for college admissions. I don't know what they are,
Speaker 2: that's not my field, but something akin to the to
Speaker 2: what symphonies do I think would be would be amazing.
Speaker 3: That's what Infidel just said. You know, he looked at
Speaker 3: a photo of a black guy and a white guy
Speaker 3: and he said, I'm going to go with the white
Speaker 3: guy just because he's white. He didn't look at what
Speaker 3: school he graduated from. He didn't look at this specific
Speaker 3: you know, specialty in cardiology that he was looking for,
Speaker 3: like say, if you go with a congenital health disorder
Speaker 3: or what an acquire how diseased, then you're going to
Speaker 3: go to a different type of cardiologist, like he just
Speaker 3: chose based on skin color.
Speaker 4: Actually, I think the most disturbing like this hasn't been
Speaker 4: brought up. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up. But
Speaker 4: I think the most disturbing part of this whole story
Speaker 4: is that why hasn't he about it? Why is he
Speaker 4: going to a cardiologist for treatment rather than just fasting
Speaker 4: and praying to the Lord to God to heal him
Speaker 4: not doing that?
Speaker 1: I think at this point it's timeing to say the
Speaker 1: ACA does not support thoughts and prayers over going to
Speaker 1: your local doctors. Now, on a more serious note, do
Speaker 1: you think, Damien, do you think that affirmative action programs
Speaker 1: like this? Do you do you think that Joel has
Speaker 1: a point and do you think that they do cause
Speaker 1: or allow people who are less competent to become doctors
Speaker 1: or do you think that he's just perhaps trying to
Speaker 1: cover his own view his own.
Speaker 4: I'm a little bit both ways on it. Like I
Speaker 4: don't have a problem with ethnic minorities being given having
Speaker 4: opportunities open up to them, particularly if they are talented
Speaker 4: or smart or whatever. Like if if a person who
Speaker 4: is intelligent and switched on is denied an opportunity simply
Speaker 4: because of their race, I think that's that's that's a
Speaker 4: great injustice as well. I'm also I'm also however, I
Speaker 4: also think these kind of things should be meritocracies, where
Speaker 4: you know, we are literally dealing with people's lives here,
Speaker 4: and so yeah, like I suppose my hope is that
Speaker 4: the race of the person doesn't matter. It's their training
Speaker 4: and their dedication to professionalism that does. And so yeah,
Speaker 4: it's like I hope that a black person doesn't get
Speaker 4: into a course simply because they're black. That will be
Speaker 4: that will be a bad outcome. I want a black
Speaker 4: person to get into a cardioli to be a cardiologist
Speaker 4: because that's where their passion is and that they've earned
Speaker 4: the right to be a professional cardiologist.
Speaker 1: You know, I talk to you guys previously about my
Speaker 1: history and my past. I work for a in the
Speaker 1: night early late eighties, early nineties, I worked for a
Speaker 1: very openly racist ex clan member in Louisiana for about
Speaker 1: three years, and what strikes me odd though, is that
Speaker 1: I'm seeing more and more things that we knew better
Speaker 1: to say than then. We knew not to say these things,
Speaker 1: and now we seem to have people saying things like
Speaker 1: this with no sense of self awareness. Turning to you, AJ,
Speaker 1: do you think that this is the result of the
Speaker 1: normalization of the divisive rhetoric that we've seen in the
Speaker 1: last four or five years when it comes to race,
Speaker 1: when it comes to women, when it comes to the
Speaker 1: LGBTQ plus community, and of course particularly trans people. Have
Speaker 1: we got to the point where there's a certain level
Speaker 1: of what I would view as shamelessness. That's the new normal,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 3: I think that the more we talk about these issues,
Speaker 3: and the more we bring up awareness of transspeople, of
Speaker 3: gay people, of even people of color, then we will
Speaker 3: see better acceptance. But there is such a big pushback
Speaker 3: from this. I don't want to call it in traditions
Speaker 3: because I don't think it said tradition. It's more of
Speaker 3: a yeah, like I said, normalizing being racist, and because
Speaker 3: you know, we come from like hundreds of years of slavery,
Speaker 3: So it hasn't been that long that we have abolished slavery.
Speaker 3: So I would say I hope that it's not expected
Speaker 3: to continue, but I will say that I am not
Speaker 3: surprised that it is still here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish I could be surprised, but you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not. Now. Aaron part of me feels like that
Speaker 1: Joel did the black doctor a favor by not choosing
Speaker 1: him as a doctor, by not being his patient patient,
Speaker 1: what do you think?
Speaker 2: I think I kind of agree with Damide, like if
Speaker 2: you're not if you're not comfortable with a doctor because
Speaker 2: of the race, then yeah, you're probably doing yourself a
Speaker 2: service and that doctor service by not being their patient.
Speaker 2: I think this person just needs to think about why
Speaker 2: they hold this opinion that they're that they hold. Why
Speaker 2: do they think this doctor got a free pass? Like
Speaker 2: the words that he's using, the way he's describing things
Speaker 2: isn't I don't think the way the world works, and
Speaker 2: so he's he's got kind of a skewed worldview, and
Speaker 2: I think that's what he needs to really think about
Speaker 2: and understand why he thinks that black doctors get free passes,
Speaker 2: because I think that's the underlying racist message is not
Speaker 2: when you think about its like, well, why do you
Speaker 2: think black doctors get free passes? Well, that must mean
Speaker 2: you think black doctors are incompetent just because they're black.
Speaker 2: And that's that's the racist part that we're talking about here.
Speaker 2: It's it's not he's not choosing this doctor because he's
Speaker 2: more comfortable with a black doctor or culturally, or that
Speaker 2: he thinks that's a better fit. He thinks that their
Speaker 2: doctor is somehow just not as capable of being a doctor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I agree because and he mentioned that if
Speaker 1: it was a black doctor that he knew that was
Speaker 1: in his church, he might choose them. And so while
Speaker 1: that implies a certain level of comfort, it also says
Speaker 1: is that, well, if I know the guy and you
Speaker 1: know he's one of the exceptions, is almost what that
Speaker 1: sounds like. And that's a whole other issue, because then
Speaker 1: once again you're you're you're labeling everyone with a broad brush.
Speaker 1: I know we're going to wrap up here shortly, but
Speaker 1: one thing I was wondering is do you think this
Speaker 1: event actually happened or just some fabrication to allow Joel
Speaker 1: the chance to cater to a certain groups of existing bigotry,
Speaker 1: some sort of reverse virtue signaling call for racist.
Speaker 3: That's a really good question. I mean I hadn't thought
Speaker 3: about that, but you know, given today's culture and like
Speaker 3: I said, how normal it is for a lot of
Speaker 3: people to be racist, I will not really doubt that
Speaker 3: this actually happened.
Speaker 1: Damien Aaron. I'm going to give you both anything to
Speaker 1: wrap up anything you wanted to comment on. Damien, I'll
Speaker 1: I don't get first.
Speaker 2: I don't have anything off the top of my head. No, sorry, okay,
Speaker 2: we don't want to talk to you, then, okay, I
Speaker 2: just have something. I do have something to say. So
Speaker 2: I think so a baseline for understanding if you're succeeding
Speaker 2: at not being prejudiced when it comes to college admissions
Speaker 2: is to compare your student population that you're admitting to
Speaker 2: the population of from which you're selecting students. Right, so,
Speaker 2: twelve percent of the United States is black. That means
Speaker 2: you would expect twelve percent of your incoming freshmen to
Speaker 2: be black. And if it's lower than that, then you
Speaker 2: probably have a discrimination problem. If it's a right around that,
Speaker 2: you probably don't. And I think what affirmative action really
Speaker 2: is trying to was really trying to get to, is
Speaker 2: there are systemic problems in our country that make it
Speaker 2: harder for minorities and women to have the opportunities that
Speaker 2: white men have, and affirmative action is attempting to solve
Speaker 2: that problem. And I have no problem in solving if
Speaker 2: we were just to take race out of it, what
Speaker 2: are we trying to solve? We want, we want disadvantaged
Speaker 2: people to have opportunities. So let's solve that problem. Let's
Speaker 2: make get disadvantaged people into higher education and into school,
Speaker 2: because there are a lot of people that don't just
Speaker 2: don't have the means to go to become doctors, and
Speaker 2: they really want to. They probably make great doctors. Let's look,
Speaker 2: let's try and find disadvantaged people and get them into
Speaker 2: higher education.
Speaker 1: I think you make a very valid point. I think
Speaker 1: that sometimes we forget that there really are and I
Speaker 1: know this goes against those people who ran about woke people,
Speaker 1: but there really are built in discrimination into the system.
Speaker 1: And I don't you know, I remember one time you
Speaker 1: mentioned the Shirley cards. I believe that was what it
Speaker 1: was for Kodak, and you know it wasn'n intent to
Speaker 1: be race discriminatory, but you know, black people got shitty
Speaker 1: pictures because the gold standard was this white, fair, complexed
Speaker 1: woman that calibrated everything by So I think that this
Speaker 1: is one way to potentially do that. And Damien, did
Speaker 1: you have anything you wanted to say?
Speaker 4: No, As I said, my hope is that a person
Speaker 4: who has the passion and the capacity for a potentially
Speaker 4: life saving position, I hope that they get the position
Speaker 4: and get to live out their passion, regardless of race.
Speaker 1: Couldn't say I better now, you know, And maybe right
Speaker 1: now I'm preaching and reflecting them myself a little bit here,
Speaker 1: But I do feel like it's important for people to
Speaker 1: be able to hear themselves.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think that until you can hear just how bad
Speaker 1: what you're saying sounds, you're not going to change. And
Speaker 1: I feel like we've gotten to a point where some
Speaker 1: of the most vile and hateful things that we hear
Speaker 1: on a regular basis from our politicians are the religious
Speaker 1: leaders and a variety of other people. I think sometimes
Speaker 1: we lose the ability to hear just how shitty what
Speaker 1: we're saying actually is. You know, I think that it's
Speaker 1: important and instead of a steady doctrine of intolerance that
Speaker 1: makes it easier for us to remain oblivious and double
Speaker 1: down on hate, that we didn't need to challenge ourselves
Speaker 1: to be better, because I just think that that is
Speaker 1: a very shallow way to choose a doctor.