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Speaker 1: I want to give you an example of symbolic interpretation

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and how symbolic interpretation is far superior than sometimes what

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we call literal descriptions or historically accurate descriptions. And this

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is actually a little bit of a pet peeve of mine,

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so I'll have to hold back not to fall into

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a rant mode. This is Jonathan Peeshel, Welcome to the

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symbolic world. For example, in the movie The Passion, which

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I really like, actually, I think in terms of narrative,

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it's a very powerful It's one of the best narratively

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driven stories of Christ that I've ever seen. But there's

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this annoying detail in the movie, and it's one that

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comes from this kind of desire to be historically accurate,

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and it is the idea that Christ is nailed to

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the cross through his wrists. And this has kind of

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infected Christian thinking. You see it in now representation. Sometimes

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in paintings and statues, you'll see Christ with the nail

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going through his wrists. Now, from the very beginning of Christianity,

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in every representation of the crucifixion, we show the nail

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that is being planted through Christ's hands, and this has

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been the traditional along and then sometime in the nineteen fifties,

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some doctor, you know, a you know, a actually doctor said, well,

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you couldn't have the nails go through the hands because

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you know, if you put the nail through the hand,

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then you know, the nail would rip through the hand

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because it's too fragile. But if you put the nail

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through the wrist, then you know, the bones here on

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the wrist would hold the nail together, and therefore it

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would make more sense, you know, logically and medically that

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whether that Jesus would have been nailed through his wrists.

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And so people go, oh, you know, because the word

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for hand, you know that's used in the Bible is

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a word this general that could mean hand, could mean forum,

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couldn't mean risk, you know. And the Christians, of course,

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you know, showed that the nail went through the hands,

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and so you could say, well, you know, then it's

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plausible that you know that this is what would have

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been done, because you put the nail through the wrist

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of the crucified one. And you know, this is really

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where you see how modern kind of materialists mechanical explanations

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just go completely awry because and how people really completely

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invert the order of meaning in a way that is

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extremely annoying because what the person ends up saying it's

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something like this. The word hand means all of this here, right,

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and so because scientifically, and to be historically accurate, it

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would not be possible for the nail to be put

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through the hand. Therefore, what that word probably means. What

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it means when it says that he that they put

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a nail through his hand, is that they put the

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nail through the wrist. And that's what that means. And

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so now we know, because we're scientists and we're so

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good at, you know, mechanical causes, now we know that

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what it means in the Bible that Christ was crucified

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through his hands is that he was crucified through his wrist,

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because that's how you could hold someone up on across.

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And of course this is really if you want to

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understand an image of the inversion of symbolism, this is it.

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In truth, it is the very opposite of what it

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is that meaning, how meaning functions, and what it is

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that these things are taught talking about, which is that

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human beings don't care about their wrists. Human beings care

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about their hands. Hands are an extension of the human

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person in it. You know, after the face, the hand

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is where the human person exists the most. It's the

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things you use to make and to hold things, and

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to hold your friends and to caress your wife. This

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is where the human person exists in the hands, you know,

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when it talks about you know, God, you know, using

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his hands, holding us in his hands. All of these

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images are related to the fact that the human experience

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of meaning is through the hands, not through the wrists.

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The risks have very little meaning in human experience. Hands

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have insane amounts of meaning. They hold so much meaning

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because they are, you know, one of the largest expressions

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of human action. And it's the same with the feet.

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And so you could say, well, they couldn't have nailed

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it through his feet for the same reason. So they

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nailed it through his you know, through the top part

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where the ankle meets with the bone. That's where they

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would have nailed it so that his feet would hold

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to the cross. And again it's the same thing. Your ankle,

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you know, that part of you has very little meaning

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in your life, but your feet have a lot of

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meaning because they take you places when you want to

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direct your gaze and you want to go somewhere. Your

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feet are what you feel touching the ground as you

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move forward. They are like the hands, not as much

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as the hands, but they are like the hands the

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place where humans find meaning and human experience the world,

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you know, and so those are the places of meaning

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and those that is why, from the very beginning of

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Christianity it was completely normal and completely coherent that his

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hands were nailed, because his hands are that by which

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he did things, and therefore to nail them on the cross,

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and to nail them so that they couldn't act anymore

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so that they could create, so that they couldn't make,

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is an image of his pouring out, This image of

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the God who created the cosmos, having his hands nailed

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to the board, having his NaNs hailed to the wall,

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in an act of complete emptying of himself, you know,

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into the world, and sacrificing everything that he had and

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everything that he was. That makes sense, and as a

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human person, you would understand what it would mean to

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have pain in your hands, and that your hands be

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prevented from acting and prevented from doing things. That is

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that all of that has meaning. Your wrists have very

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little meaning, and so when you look at the story

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of the crucifixion, you could you have to reverse the

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way that the modern actually thinker talks about it. You

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would say, is it possible that if I was there

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in the first century, you know that this is where

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the nail would have gone? And the answer is yeah, maybe,

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And what does that mean? That means that he nailed

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him in his hands? The meaning goes the other way.

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The meaning is that if he's nailed in his wrists,

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The meaning of it is that he was nailed in

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his hands. That is the important part, because you could

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reduce everything to like millimeters and centimeters. Well, if he

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nailed it in his hand, did he nailed it closer

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to the wrist or closer to the fingers? How many

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centimeters from the wrists would you have to nail the

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nail so that the hand holds, and how many centimeters

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from the fingers, And then you could find the most

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precise possible place in the wrist. You know, if you

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nail it here, it does solid. Or if you nail

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it here, how far in the forearm would you have

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to put the nail so that the person holds on

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on the cross. This is not what it's important. What

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is important is what it means. And therefore if the

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Roman soldier nailed and maybe you know who knows, maybe

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nailed it in different places on the different hands, because

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it didn't really care, it doesn't matter. When you make

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a representation, you represent it in meaning. That is what

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a representation is. For the reason why you would want

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to represent something in a movie, the reason why you

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want to represent something in a painting, the reason why

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you want to represent it in a book is because

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it has meaning, and therefore you have to represent it

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in meaning. And so if you have a choice between

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showing a nail going through the wrist and showing a

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nail going through the hand, you put it in the hand,

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because that's the reason why you're representing it in the

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first place. Is to signify, is to kind of compress

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things towards their meaning and not towards the idiosyncrasy of

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the moment, or to just the kind of let's say,

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practical underpinning, mechanical underpinnings of how something happened. And that is,

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of course everything about scripture is like that. That is

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why there is no attempt, no desire to exp what's

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mechanically happening during the miracles, you know, and the miracles

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don't mean the mechanical things. There's no reason to try

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to explain the mechanical causes of the miracle. At least,

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there's very little reason to it. I mean, I can't.

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I guess you can imagine a moment where it's kind

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of interesting to think about that, But it's definitely should

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never become the central question. It should never become the

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thing that interests you the most. The thing that interests

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you the most is the meaning, because the meaning is

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the reason why you represent something, and the meaning is

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the reason why you remember it. And so this of

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course feeds into all kinds of things, you know, to

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all kinds of things, and the way in which we

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remember things, and the way in which we represent things

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when they move towards meaning. We shouldn't freak out. We

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shouldn't say, well, you know, to be historically accurate and

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to be you know, to be scientifically accurate, we should

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represent things this way. This is most often a mistake,

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because if you move towards detail, and you move toward idiosyncrasy,

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and you move towards something that is just showing the

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mechanical causes something. One of the things you're doing is

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that you're moving away from the meaning. You know, and

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of course there has to be an interplay between the two.

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You know, there has to be a way in which

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these things are connected together, because the world manifests itself

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in meaning. You know, this is not arbitrary. Why you

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would want to nail someone's hands to the board so

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that he can't grab on to the soldiers, so that

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he can't try to free himself, so that he can't

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try to get off the cross. You can kind of

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understand why you would do that, but then you also

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have to understand what it means and what it means

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to the people watching, and when it means to the

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people seeing that this person has been immobilized in the

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in him, in his action right, he's been pinned down

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by the authority so that he can no longer be

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free and he can longer act on his own. So

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this was just a this was really just a small note,

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a little rant that is not very long, but to

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kind of help you think about symbolism and to you know,

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maybe you can think about other examples where this has happened.

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You know, I sadly, you know, well Sadly, I grew

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up in a world where this was constantly the case,

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where you know, when people trying to think about the

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crossing of the Red Sea, they're far more interested in

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figuring out, could there be a wind that could push

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through and could you know, open up. You know, there's

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a part of the Red Sea where the water is

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not very deep, where it's only you know, if you

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like one foot deep, and if there was a really

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strong wind, then you could separate. And they're trying to

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figure out and then they forget why it matters. They

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forget to think about how the crossing of the Red

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Sea is related to baptism, how the crossing of the

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Red Sea is related to the creation of the world,

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to the end of the flood, to all of these

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powerful images that help us understand why this is. This

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is the image that God chose, you know, to reveal

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to us the transition from an old, dying world to

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a new world. We kind of forget that and then

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we end up getting focused on the mechanical details. And

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so hopefully this will slowly reorient your brain. Slowly, let's say,

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you know, kind of put things in the proper order.

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But it's something that we forget all the time that

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we forget that the reason why we remember and the

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reason why we represent is for meanings sake and not

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for detailed sake, you know. And if we have to

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remember a detail rather than another, it's always because there's

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a reason. Because memory is expensive and representation is expensive

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in terms of action and in terms of things. And

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sometimes you know, and if you're representing, you want it

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to be like a bullseye. You want it to be

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something like a like a funnel that leads you towards

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the reason for that memory and that representation. So hope

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this was useful and interesting to you. You look like

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what we do at the Symbolic World. Don't forget to

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go to the symboc world dot com. You can sign

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up and become a member of the synok World. There

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are also ways that you can support us financially. And

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don't forget that all of these episodes of the Symbolic

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World we put out, they're also out on your favorite

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podcast platform as well if you want to just listen

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to the audio. And so thanks everyone for your attention,

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and I'll talk to you very soon. Bye bye. I

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said I would never do it again, but here we are.

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We are announcing the Symbolic World Summit in May twenty

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twenty six. I have so many great people around me

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that I'm just excited to do it, even though I

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thought it would be crazy to do it again.

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Speaker 2: Our summit's going to be from May fourteenth through sixteenth

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in Broadview Heights, Ohio. You can buy tickets at Symbolic

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World Summit dot com. We have early bird pricing going

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right now fifty dollars off of general admission and VIP tickets.

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Kenot speakers this year are Father Josiah Trenham and doctor

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Mary Harrington, which is a combination nobody knew that they wanted,

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but I think it's going to be absolutely incredible. And

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of course Jonathan and I will be speaking, as well

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as several people from around the Symbolic World community.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people that you like that you've seen

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are going to be there, are going to come. We're

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gonna have book signings. It'll be a lot of time

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for people to meet and to greet. We're also doing

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Supra as well, and so come and join us. We

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can't wait for this and we're excited to meet you

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in person. If you enjoy these videos, and podcasts. Please

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go to the Symbolic world dot com website and see

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how you can support what we're doing. There are multiple

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subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase,

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So go to the symbolic world dot com and thank

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you for your support.