1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: There's nothing quite like a secret, is there, especially when 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,759 that's been kept for centuries. It's like the ultimate puzzle, 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:06,559 it is. 4 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 2: And we build these incredible stories around the gaps in 5 00:00:09,919 --> 00:00:11,160 our knowledge exactly. 6 00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: You think of a figure locked away behind an iron mask, 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,800 or some impossible sound from the bottom of the ocean. 8 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,839 Speaker 2: Or a ship just found floating completely empty. These things 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:23,920 challenge everything we think we know, and. 10 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes you have to wonder if the mystery itself is 11 00:00:27,559 --> 00:00:28,480 better than the truth. 12 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,359 Speaker 2: That's the core question, isn't it. Legends are often more satisfying. 13 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,719 But what happens when that legend, something we've imagined for 14 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,880 generations is finally definitively stripped bare well. 15 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,799 Speaker 1: Welcome to Thrilling Threads today. We've got a fascinating collection 16 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,320 of sources, forensic reports, historical deep dives, scientific papers, all 17 00:00:49,359 --> 00:00:52,880 focused on those historical riddles that have pretty recently been solved. 18 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,799 Speaker 2: Our whole mission today is to get to that intersection point, 19 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,280 the moment where this persistent romantic legend slams into old, 20 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:02,560 hard modern confirmation. 21 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: Right, We're going to unpack not just what the truth is, 22 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,959 but really dig into how it was finally uncovered. 23 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: We'll be moving from sacred relics, getting carbon dated to 24 00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:14,159 the sounds of the deep sea, and then into some 25 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,680 pretty high stakes royal intrigue. 26 00:01:16,159 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: And we'll finish up with the absolute finality of DNA 27 00:01:20,079 --> 00:01:22,680 testing on a lost dynasty. It's really a deep dive 28 00:01:22,719 --> 00:01:25,000 into expectation versus. 29 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 2: Evidence and realizing that sometimes the simplest explanation, well, it 30 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:31,959 takes the most complex science to actually prove. 31 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,519 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into it, and we have to start 32 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,319 with an object that is I mean, it's the perfect 33 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,120 crossroads of faith, history and forensic. 34 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:42,239 Speaker 2: Science, the Shroud of Turin. 35 00:01:42,359 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: The Shroud of Turin, so for anyone who needs a 36 00:01:44,239 --> 00:01:46,640 quick catchup, this is a very large linen cloth and 37 00:01:46,719 --> 00:01:49,640 it has this faint, almost ghostly image of a. 38 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,879 Speaker 2: Man, a bearded man who appears to have suffered injuries 39 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,200 consistent with a Roman crucifixion. 40 00:01:55,319 --> 00:01:58,799 Speaker 1: And for centuries it's been venerated, especially by Catholics, as 41 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,519 the actual bar shroud of Jesus Christ. 42 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 2: The devotion is incredible, but the historical paper trail is 43 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,479 let's say it's a little patchy. The first time it's 44 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,840 reliably documented is in the mid fourteenth century in Europe. 45 00:02:11,479 --> 00:02:13,719 Speaker 1: Which right away is a huge problem, isn't it. I mean, 46 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:16,080 that's a gap of over thirteen hundred years between the 47 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,280 crucifixion and when this thing just sort of appears. 48 00:02:19,439 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: It's a massive historical hurdle. And as one of our 49 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:26,960 sources points out, while historians can debate the written evidence forever, 50 00:02:27,479 --> 00:02:31,479 the shroud itself is the real puzzle. It poses and 51 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,599 I'm quoting here intriguing issues that are not resolved by science. 52 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,439 Speaker 1: Right, regardless of the paper trail. You have this physical 53 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:41,159 object in front of you that demands an explanation. 54 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: And what's so fascinating is the image itself. For centuries 55 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,400 people trying to debunk it as a medieval fake ran 56 00:02:47,439 --> 00:02:48,560 into a huge problem. 57 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:49,319 Speaker 3: It's not paint. 58 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,599 Speaker 2: It's not paint. Yeah, it seems to be some kind 59 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,400 of superficial change to the actual fibers of the linen. 60 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:56,120 And here's the really crucial part. 61 00:02:56,159 --> 00:02:57,199 Speaker 1: The negative image. 62 00:02:57,319 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: The image has properties of a photographic negative. When you 63 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:02,479 take a picture of it and develop the negative, the 64 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,000 image inverts and looks like a positive. 65 00:03:04,599 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: Photograph, which is just it's mind boggling. How do you 66 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:10,719 create a perfect photographic negative in the thirteen hundreds. But 67 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,039 it gets even weirder because the image is also three dimensional. 68 00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:17,599 Speaker 2: Yes, the information is encoded in it. I saw that 69 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,159 same analysis. A computer program can read the variations in 70 00:03:21,199 --> 00:03:26,199 the image's density as like topographical data. 71 00:03:25,759 --> 00:03:28,479 Speaker 1: And it creates a three D model of a human 72 00:03:28,479 --> 00:03:30,879 body from it, which you just don't get from a 73 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,000 simple painting or a contact print from a statue. 74 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: We don't and there are no directional shadows. If you 75 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:39,400 scorched it or use some kind of vapor, you wouldn't 76 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,080 get that kind of fidelity. It's led to theories about 77 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,719 a flash of high energy radiation, some kind of intense 78 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,319 instantaneous event. 79 00:03:47,199 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: And that's what keeps the debate alive, even for skeptics, 80 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,280 which of course brings us to nineteen eighty eight when 81 00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:55,439 science tried to settle it once and for all the. 82 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: Carbon dating tests. It was a huge moment. They took 83 00:03:58,039 --> 00:04:00,319 samples from one corner of the cloth, split them up 84 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,479 and send them to three completely independent lambs, Oxford, Zurich, 85 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:05,400 and Arizona. 86 00:04:05,439 --> 00:04:08,159 Speaker 1: And the science of carbon fourteen dating is pretty solid, right. 87 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,159 You measured the decay of this radioact of isotope in 88 00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:13,159 organic material to see when it died. 89 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: It's a robust methodology and the results. They were a. 90 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:19,399 Speaker 1: Bombshell, A definitive punch, is what it was. 91 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: All three labs came back with the same date range. 92 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,639 The cloth originated somewhere between twelve sixty and thirteen ninety eighty. 93 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: Which puts it squarely in the medieval era, right before 94 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,439 it first shows up in the historical record. 95 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: It seemed to confirm it was a spectacular but ultimately 96 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:38,639 medieval creation, not a first century artifact. 97 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 3: But that didn't end the debate, did it not? 98 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: At all? The controversy has raged ever since. Critics of 99 00:04:45,199 --> 00:04:47,279 the test point to the sample selection. They say, look, 100 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,120 you only tested one corner. What if that corner was 101 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,560 a patch, a repair that was added centuries. 102 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: Later, or contaminated from being handled for hundreds of years. 103 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,959 Speaker 2: Exactly, biofilm, smoke, all sorts of things could have interduce 104 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:02,199 newer carbon and skewed the results. 105 00:05:02,319 --> 00:05:05,959 Speaker 1: I found the details about the actual burial process really compelling, though, 106 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:07,759 putting aside the dating for a second. 107 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, the sources describe how a body would have 108 00:05:10,759 --> 00:05:13,319 been prepared. You'd have to lift the corpse to an 109 00:05:13,319 --> 00:05:15,360 almost ninety degree sitting position. 110 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: To pull the long cloth underneath it. Before laying it 111 00:05:17,959 --> 00:05:21,319 back down. It's such a practical, kind of gruesome detail 112 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:22,000 it is. 113 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,759 Speaker 2: It grounds the whole thing in a very physical, very 114 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:25,720 real process. 115 00:05:26,079 --> 00:05:29,959 Speaker 1: So you have this paradox. The carbon dating says medieval fake, 116 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:34,519 but the image itself, the three D information says unexplainable anomaly. 117 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: And that's where we are. Science sort of solved the 118 00:05:37,879 --> 00:05:41,160 when the fourteenth century, but the how is still a 119 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:44,639 completely open question. How could a medieval artist have created this. 120 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,959 Speaker 1: It's like we traded one big mystery for a dozen smaller, 121 00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:50,439 even more complex ones. 122 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 2: Precisely, it's a great example of a mystery being solved, 123 00:05:54,439 --> 00:05:55,360 but not resolved. 124 00:05:55,439 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: Okay from a baffling piece of fabric. 125 00:05:57,399 --> 00:05:58,399 Speaker 3: Let's head out to see. 126 00:05:58,519 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: Because the ocean has always been, you know, the ultimate 127 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:02,319 keeper of secrets. 128 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: And the perfect canvas for our deepest fears. 129 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,759 Speaker 1: We'll start with a sound, a single sound that for 130 00:06:06,879 --> 00:06:10,439 years made people believe something truly monstrous was lurking. 131 00:06:10,079 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 3: In the depths. 132 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: The bloop, the bloop. 133 00:06:12,519 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: This was back in nineteen ninety seven, and it's just 134 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:17,839 a brilliant case of modern tech accidentally triggering our most 135 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:18,720 ancient fears. 136 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: The sound was recorded in a really remote part of 137 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,399 the Southern Pacific Ocean. And it wasn't just any microphone. 138 00:06:24,439 --> 00:06:27,000 This was a network of deep sea hydrophones, right. 139 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: This was the old SOSIS array, the Navy system for 140 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,879 tracking Soviet subs during the Cold War. 141 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: By the nineties it had been repurposed for scientific use, 142 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,920 listening for things like underwater volcano seismic events, that kind 143 00:06:39,959 --> 00:06:40,199 of thing. 144 00:06:40,319 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: And then in ninety seven they picked up this this sound. 145 00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:46,360 It was incredibly low frequency and very high amplitude. 146 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: So for listeners, low frequency is like a deep bass rumble, 147 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,720 and those sounds travel a very long way in water. 148 00:06:52,319 --> 00:06:54,920 High amplitude just means it was incredibly powerful. 149 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,439 Speaker 1: The scale of it was what was so terrifying. 150 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 3: It was so loud. 151 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: It was picked up by sensors over three thousand miles apart, which. 152 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 2: Is roughly the distance from New York to London. For 153 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,839 a single noise to travel that far and still be 154 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,240 that strong, mm hmm, it had to come from something 155 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:11,959 absolutely colossal. 156 00:07:11,639 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: I mean, far bigger than any known animal, even a. 157 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,959 Speaker 2: Blue whale, oh much bigger. Yeah, And that ambiguity, combined 158 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,759 with the raw power, is what lit the fuse. The 159 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,040 speculation just exploded. People were convinced it had to be 160 00:07:24,079 --> 00:07:26,319 some unknown giant deep sea creature. 161 00:07:26,079 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: The real life cracking, a real life Casulu. 162 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, the bloop became the smoking gun for cryptozoologists. 163 00:07:32,319 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: I love that initial assessment from the scientists, though, what 164 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,800 the hell is it? I'll tell you what it's not. 165 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,800 It's not one of ours that just captures the feeling perfectly. 166 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,319 Speaker 2: It does. But by twenty twelve, after years of more 167 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,639 monitoring and analysis, they finally nailed it down and the 168 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,439 solution was an ice quake also known as a cryoceism, So. 169 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: A glacier cracking. 170 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: Essentially, yes, a massive glacier or iceberg fracturing and shifting 171 00:07:57,439 --> 00:08:00,720 the sheer mass of the ice moving is what generates 172 00:08:00,759 --> 00:08:03,879 that powerful low frequency sound wave that can travel across 173 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,600 an entire ocean. It was geology, not biology. 174 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: And the sources point out the very real connection to 175 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,560 what's happening today with climate change in glaciers melting faster. 176 00:08:14,439 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: We can expect more bluupes are sure to come. The 177 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:19,279 sound is natural, but we're creating the conditions for it 178 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:20,160 to happen more often. 179 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:21,959 Speaker 3: But the myth just won't die, will it? 180 00:08:22,199 --> 00:08:25,079 Speaker 1: Even after the twenty twelve confirmation people are still out 181 00:08:25,079 --> 00:08:30,399 there creating these quote increasingly horrifying monsters to represent the bloop. 182 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: It illustrates that tension perfectly, the tension between a satisfying 183 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,399 romance and a mundane resolution. 184 00:08:36,639 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: So is that frustrating for scientists to have a definitive 185 00:08:39,639 --> 00:08:43,360 finding just ignored in favor of a monster story. 186 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: I think it's a mix. Our sources kind of summarized 187 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,639 it as yes, sits a no. Of course, scientists want 188 00:08:49,639 --> 00:08:52,879 their findings reported accurately, of course. But the monster narrative, 189 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,279 the idea that the deep ocean still holds secrets big 190 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,000 enough to dwarf us, that's just too powerful a storyline, 191 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,279 go of. We want there to be something huge and 192 00:09:02,399 --> 00:09:03,399 unknown down there. 193 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: We will always choose the giant squid over the kracking glacier. 194 00:09:07,159 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: Every single time. The scale of the mystery seems to 195 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,840 demand a solution of equal scale. 196 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:14,039 Speaker 1: Okay, so from a sound that turned out to be geology, 197 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,000 let's pivot to a site that turned out to be well, 198 00:09:17,039 --> 00:09:21,039 a tragic human error. The Merry Celeste, the Ultimate ghost ship. 199 00:09:21,159 --> 00:09:24,159 Speaker 2: It really is found in the Atlantic in eighteen seventy two. 200 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,159 The whole mystery comes from the fact that it was 201 00:09:26,159 --> 00:09:28,399 found abandoned, but it was still perfectly seaworthy. 202 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 3: Right. 203 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,879 Speaker 1: It had taken on some water after rough weather, but 204 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:33,159 it was still floating. It was well stocked with food 205 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:36,840 and water. But the entire crew was just gone. 206 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,799 Speaker 2: And the details were just so eerie. They fueled the 207 00:09:40,879 --> 00:09:44,840 legend for over a century. An unfinished letter on a desk, 208 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,720 a meal of uneaten chicken, the. 209 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,919 Speaker 1: Captain's log just stopped a few days before. It was 210 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,639 like they left in a sudden, absolute panic, even though 211 00:09:52,639 --> 00:09:53,879 the ship itself was fine. 212 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: So the immediate sensational theories all focused on violence. Of course, 213 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,360 maritime life in the nineteenth century could be pretty brutal. 214 00:10:01,639 --> 00:10:04,279 The idea that the crew got into the ship's cargo 215 00:10:04,519 --> 00:10:07,519 a lot of industrial alcohol and murdered the captain and 216 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,320 his family in a drunken rage, that was the story 217 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:11,720 that's stuck. 218 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: But I have to push back on that a little 219 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,879 because the crew that found the Mary Celeste, the guys 220 00:10:15,879 --> 00:10:18,120 from the de Grazia, they were under a lot of 221 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:20,399 suspicion themselves during the salvage hearings. 222 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,279 Speaker 2: That's a crucial point. They had a financial interest in 223 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,639 a neat tidy explanation. 224 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,919 Speaker 1: Right, so why should we just accept the simple explanation 225 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,480 when there's a possibility of foul play that was maybe 226 00:10:30,519 --> 00:10:31,000 covered up. 227 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,399 Speaker 2: It's a valid challenge and it highlights the bias and 228 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,559 the historical sources. But the consensus from modern maritime research 229 00:10:38,039 --> 00:10:39,440 really leans away from violence. 230 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 3: Why is that. 231 00:10:40,279 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: Because there was zero physical evidence the ship was orderly, 232 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,559 There were no signs of a struggle, no blood, nothing. 233 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,399 A massacre is messy. This was leat too neat. 234 00:10:52,279 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So if it wasn't a mutiny, what could cause 235 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:58,000 that level of panic? Why abandon a perfectly good ship. 236 00:10:58,399 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 2: The sources point to two very plausible related explanations, and 237 00:11:02,759 --> 00:11:07,279 they're both rooted in fear. First, fear of the cargo itself. 238 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: The industrial alcohol. 239 00:11:08,279 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 2: Exactly, the ship was carrying a huge amount of it, 240 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:13,440 and if some of those barrels leak during a storm, 241 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:17,559 the alcohol could create a massive, potentially explosive vapor cloud 242 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:18,080 in the hold. 243 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 3: Ah Okay, that makes sense. 244 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: A small spark a lantern and the whole ship goes. 245 00:11:21,879 --> 00:11:24,039 Speaker 2: Up, or even just the fear of that, the captain 246 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,360 might have smelled the fumes, panicked and ordered everyone into 247 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:28,519 the lifeboat to wait for the vapors to clear get 248 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:30,279 a safe distance from the ticking time bomb. 249 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: And the second theory is related to that. 250 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 2: It is it's just simple miscalculation. The ship took on 251 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,039 water in the storm, that's certain, and sailors back then 252 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,440 often underestimated just how buoyant a big, well built ship was. 253 00:11:41,639 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: So they saw the water in the hold, thought we're 254 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:46,279 sinking an abandoned ship too early. 255 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:49,879 Speaker 2: That's the idea. They get in the lifeboat, maybe tie 256 00:11:49,919 --> 00:11:51,600 a line to the Mary Celeste to stay. 257 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,879 Speaker 1: With her, and then what the line snaps in the 258 00:11:53,919 --> 00:11:54,919 storm or the. 259 00:11:54,879 --> 00:11:58,159 Speaker 2: Ship, being empty and buoyant, just drifts away from them 260 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,399 faster than they can row. They're stranded in a tiny 261 00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:03,120 boat in the middle of the Atlantic. 262 00:12:02,759 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: To be swallowed up by the seas. 263 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,799 Speaker 2: Exactly so, the tragedy wasn't murder. It was a horrible 264 00:12:08,919 --> 00:12:13,360 chain reaction of bad weather, fear, and a fatal misjudgment. 265 00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:16,960 It's a story of human vulnerability, not human evil. 266 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,759 Speaker 1: That's somehow even more chilling. Okay, let's shift gears completely. 267 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,759 We're moving from the open ocean into the claustrophobic halls 268 00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:27,279 of European palaces and prisons. 269 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,039 Speaker 2: Where secrets could topple dynasties, and. 270 00:12:29,039 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: We have to start with a mystery that became a 271 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,840 household name for concealment itself. The Man in the Iron Mask. 272 00:12:34,759 --> 00:12:37,279 Speaker 2: A prisoner in France during the long reign of King 273 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,200 Louis the fourteenth, the son King, and he was held 274 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,159 for decades. 275 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,639 Speaker 1: The part that captured everyone's imagination was, of course the mask. 276 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,399 It was probably cloth, but legend turned it into this 277 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:48,480 brutal iron thing. 278 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 2: And the whole reason for the mask was the foundation 279 00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:54,759 of all the speculation. This person's face had to be 280 00:12:54,799 --> 00:12:58,039 so important, so recognizable, that no one could ever be 281 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,279 allowed to see it right. 282 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: Which led to the most dramatic theory of all that 283 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,159 he was the King's own twin. 284 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: Brother, the ultimate royal secret, whisked away at birth to 285 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:11,200 prevent a challenge to the throne. It's pure opera, pure 286 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:12,279 Alexander Dumah. 287 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,879 Speaker 1: It's a great story, but historians have for the most 288 00:13:14,879 --> 00:13:18,360 part settled on a candidate who is well less royal 289 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:19,759 but maybe even more scandalous. 290 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 2: Jujita Cavoy tell us about him. Jujita Cavoy fits the timeline. 291 00:13:23,799 --> 00:13:26,679 He was moved between the same prisons as the mass prisoner, 292 00:13:27,039 --> 00:13:29,159 and it wasn't royalty. He was a valet to the 293 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:30,879 king's powerful finance minister. 294 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: So this shifts the secret from being about bloodline to 295 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,320 being about political cover. 296 00:13:36,159 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: Up, a massive political cover up. Our sources linked Duja 297 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,879 to several huge court scandals. He was apparently involved in 298 00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:46,679 circles that practiced devil worship, and even more dangerously, he 299 00:13:46,799 --> 00:13:49,039 was linked to supplying poisons. 300 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,039 Speaker 1: The famous affair of the poisons that rocked the French 301 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:52,279 court the very same. 302 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,919 Speaker 2: So if you're the valet to the finance minister, you 303 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,559 know all the state's dirty financial secrets, and if you're 304 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,360 supplying poisons to high ranking nobles, you know who's trying 305 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,000 to kill who. This man was a walking, talking liability. 306 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: So the mask wasn't to hide a royal face. It 307 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:10,000 was to ensure this man could never speak or be 308 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,240 identified by anyone he knew exactly. 309 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,799 Speaker 2: It's a much darker, more cynical secret, not about a 310 00:14:15,799 --> 00:14:19,399 lost twin, but about the deep, pervasive corruption at the 311 00:14:19,399 --> 00:14:22,600 heart of the court. His silence was a political. 312 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: Necessity that turns it from a romance into a really 313 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:26,960 chilling piece of real politic. 314 00:14:27,559 --> 00:14:30,039 Speaker 2: Okay, let's cross the English channel for another royal mystery, 315 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,639 The Princes in the Tower, England's great unsolved royal murder. 316 00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: It's the ghost story that has haunted the monarchy for 317 00:14:36,559 --> 00:14:39,080 over five hundred years. It all goes back to the 318 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,879 War of the Roses. King Edward Fourth dies suddenly and his. 319 00:14:42,759 --> 00:14:45,399 Speaker 2: Two young sons, the new twelve year old King Edward 320 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,159 the Fifth and his little brother Richard, are put in 321 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,320 the Tower of London for safekeeping by their uncle and regent, Richard, 322 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,840 Duke of Gloucester, who would very soon become King Richard iid. 323 00:14:56,679 --> 00:14:59,279 The boys go into the tower and they are never 324 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:00,240 seen again. 325 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: And the motive and opportunity here are just screamingly. 326 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,279 Speaker 2: Obvious, crystal clear. The moment the boys vanish, Richard takes 327 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,879 the throne, he had every reason in the world to 328 00:15:10,879 --> 00:15:13,080 get rid of them to secure his claim. He's been 329 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,559 the prime suspect for. 330 00:15:14,559 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: Centuries, cemented by Tudor propaganda, especially Shakespeare's play, which. 331 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,879 Speaker 2: Painted him as this monstrous, hunchbacked villain. Now, there have 332 00:15:22,919 --> 00:15:25,440 always been theories that the boys survived, that they were 333 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:26,399 smuggled away. 334 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: But the circumstantial evidence that's been found over the years 335 00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:31,000 is pretty damning. 336 00:15:30,919 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: Very damning. Our sources highlight two key pieces. First, back 337 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,320 in sixteen seventy four, workers doing renovations in the tower 338 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,679 found a wooden box containing the skeletons of two small children. 339 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,679 Speaker 1: And those were later interred in Westminster Abbey. 340 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:46,559 Speaker 2: They were Then there's the second piece, this intriguing detail 341 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:48,480 about the older Prince's property. 342 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,559 Speaker 3: His goal chain of office. 343 00:15:49,879 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 2: Yes, there's a will that documents this chain being given 344 00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:57,200 to a family called the Cables, and the person who 345 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,399 gave it to them was Sir James Tyrell. 346 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,639 Speaker 1: Who is the man alleged to have actually carried out 347 00:16:01,639 --> 00:16:04,159 the murders on Richard's orders, the alleged assassin. 348 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,799 Speaker 2: So you have the lost prince's most valuable possession in 349 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,000 the hands of his supposed killer. 350 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: So you put it all together, the motive, the timing, 351 00:16:12,919 --> 00:16:15,519 the discovery of children's bones in the right place, the 352 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:17,720 victim's property, ending up with the killer. 353 00:16:17,919 --> 00:16:20,679 Speaker 2: It leads to the conclusion that Richard almost definitely had 354 00:16:20,679 --> 00:16:21,200 them killed. 355 00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: But that word almost is doing a lot of work there. 356 00:16:24,679 --> 00:16:29,639 Speaker 2: It is because we are only almost definite. Those skeletons 357 00:16:29,639 --> 00:16:32,759 have never been scientifically identified. Richard. The third still has 358 00:16:32,799 --> 00:16:35,480 supporters today who argue he was framed. 359 00:16:35,639 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: And this is where modern science could step in, but 360 00:16:38,039 --> 00:16:39,919 it hasn't been allowed to correct. 361 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,399 Speaker 2: The bones are entombed in Westminster Abbey, and the Crown 362 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,279 in the church have so far denied requests to exhume 363 00:16:46,279 --> 00:16:47,200 them for analysis. 364 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,039 Speaker 3: What could they find out? If they did. 365 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 2: Everything carbon fourteen dating to confirm there from the fourteen eighties, 366 00:16:54,039 --> 00:16:58,799 and crucially, mitochondrial DNA, they could trace the maternal line 367 00:16:59,039 --> 00:17:01,759 and see if it matches the plantagenets. 368 00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:02,919 Speaker 1: Our sources even mentioned. They could look for evidence on 369 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,519 the bones themselves. 370 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,279 Speaker 2: A potential bloodstain from a blow to the face, matching 371 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,680 some historical accounts of how they were killed. The final 372 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,559 proof is right there, waiting in an urn locked away 373 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:14,160 by tradition. 374 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: It's amazing we can pull DNA from Neanderthals, but a 375 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:19,960 five hundred year old murder mystery remains unsolved because of 376 00:17:20,039 --> 00:17:21,599 protocol it does. 377 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,279 Speaker 2: Let's move on to a different kind of legend, the 378 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,880 kind that springs not from history but from fiction and fear. 379 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: These are cases where we embrace a dramatic story so 380 00:17:31,079 --> 00:17:34,880 completely that we ignore the much simpler truth, and wartime 381 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,519 is the perfect breeding ground for this. 382 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,799 Speaker 2: Fear patriotism, chaos. It's a perfect storm for mythology, which 383 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,759 brings us to the Pearl Arbor ghost plane. 384 00:17:43,839 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: This rumor started circulating about a year after the attack 385 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:47,799 in nineteen forty two. 386 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,799 Speaker 2: The story goes that an American P forty fighter plane, 387 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,920 all shot up and damaged, was seen flying erratically out 388 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,200 of the Pacific from the direction of Japan. 389 00:17:56,319 --> 00:17:59,279 Speaker 1: And the pilots who saw it said the pilot inside 390 00:17:59,319 --> 00:18:02,640 gave them away just before the plane crashed into the sea, 391 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,960 and of course no wreckage or body was ever recovered. 392 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,559 Speaker 2: It's the perfect wartime ghost story, the lone hero wounded 393 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:15,799 but flying his final mission home, one last human gesture 394 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:19,759 before disappearing. It's a powerful mythic image. 395 00:18:19,839 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 3: It sounds like a movie. 396 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: Well there's a good reason for that. The entire persistent 397 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,079 ghost story is completely made up. It comes from a 398 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:26,920 work of fiction. 399 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 3: A short story called ghost. 400 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,559 Speaker 2: Ship, written by Brigadier General Robert Lee Scott Junior, a 401 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,640 very famous military figure and author. 402 00:18:33,759 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: And the best part is he later came out and said, hey, everyone, 403 00:18:36,319 --> 00:18:37,799 it's just a story I wrote. 404 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,519 Speaker 2: He shot down the rumors himself, but it was too late. 405 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,880 The story was too good. The emotional need for that 406 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,480 kind of heroic sacrifice was too strong. It lodged itself 407 00:18:47,519 --> 00:18:50,319 in the collective memory as a real event for decades. 408 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: It's a perfect example of how much we prefer a 409 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:54,839 good narrative over simple. 410 00:18:54,519 --> 00:18:57,279 Speaker 2: Facts from a manufactured ghost. We now go to a 411 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,079 very real, very terrifying creature, or what was believed to 412 00:19:01,079 --> 00:19:01,640 be a creature. 413 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: The Beast of je Valdan were. 414 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 2: Eighteenth century France, the remote southern province of Jevodon, and 415 00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:11,240 over a few years in the seventeen sixties, a wave 416 00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:14,079 of terrifying animal attacks swept the region. 417 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,039 Speaker 1: We're talking over two hundred reported attacks, and the local people, 418 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,160 absolutely gripped by fear, became convinced they were all the 419 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,240 work of a single monstrous creature, the beast, and. 420 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,319 Speaker 2: The descriptions they gave were designed to make it clear 421 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,960 this was no ordinary wolf. They said it had a 422 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,000 striped coat, a long, tough tail, and was much bigger 423 00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:34,599 than a wolf. 424 00:19:34,759 --> 00:19:37,279 Speaker 1: Some of the descriptions got even weirder, right more human 425 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:37,799 they did. 426 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 2: Witnesses claimed the beast would put its paw up to 427 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,960 its chest before running off, that kind of anthropomorphism. 428 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,599 Speaker 1: Which immediately pushes the explanation into the supernatural. 429 00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:49,799 Speaker 2: Or at least the exotic. People started theorizing it was 430 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:52,400 a hyena or a lion, maybe a bear that escaped 431 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,160 from a traveling menagerie. The panic was so great that 432 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,079 King Louis the fifteenth sent his own royal hunters to 433 00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:58,480 kill it. 434 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,759 Speaker 1: But modern history, o orians and animal experts have come 435 00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:05,079 to a much more logical, though still terrifying conclusion. 436 00:20:05,319 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 2: It was just a wolf or a pack of wolves. 437 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,400 That's it. That's the most likely answer. You have to 438 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,559 remember the context. Wolf attacks were tragically common in rural 439 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,279 eighteenth century Europe, and the description, once you strip away 440 00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:20,920 the hysteria, sounds a lot like a large subspecies like 441 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,519 the Italian wolf, which is found in that part of France. 442 00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:26,599 Speaker 1: So where did the stripes and the weird gestures come from? 443 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: Trauma, memory distortion, and the need to make sense of 444 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,319 a tragedy. If you can convince yourself in your community 445 00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:36,480 that you were attacked by a one of a kind monster, 446 00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:40,319 a beast, that's somehow easier to process than the reality. 447 00:20:40,519 --> 00:20:41,759 Speaker 3: What's the reality that. 448 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 2: You live among common predators that are simply large, hungry, 449 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,279 and very dangerous. The fear magnified the details. A patchy 450 00:20:49,319 --> 00:20:53,480 coat becomes stripes, a defensive posture becomes a human like gesture. 451 00:20:53,839 --> 00:20:56,039 Speaker 1: So the real mystery wasn't the animal, it was the 452 00:20:56,079 --> 00:20:57,599 psychology of the people. 453 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: It terrorized exactly. They created a monster to make their 454 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:00,880 fear manageable. 455 00:21:01,039 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: Okay, For our next section, we move into the final 456 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,160 dramatic days of Tsarist Russia, a time of revolution, mysticism, 457 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,079 and ultimately a mystery solved by DNA. 458 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,839 Speaker 2: And we have to start with the man at the 459 00:21:13,839 --> 00:21:17,599 center of the court's mystical obsession, Gregory. 460 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,759 Speaker 1: Resputant, the mad Monk, a faith healer who had this 461 00:21:20,839 --> 00:21:25,079 incredible influence over the Czar and Czarina, mostly because they 462 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,759 believed he could heal their son Alexey's hemophilia. 463 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: He was a larger than life figure and so the 464 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,279 story of his death had to be equally spectacular. 465 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: The legend of his assassination in nineteen sixteen is one 466 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,960 of the most famous in history. It makes him seem 467 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,839 almost unkillable. 468 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 2: The story everyone knows is that his assassins first fed 469 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,960 him cakes and wine laced with enough cyanide to kill 470 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,920 a dozen men, and nothing happened right, So. 471 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: Then they shot him. 472 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,519 Speaker 2: Multiple times and he still wouldn't die, so finally they 473 00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:56,480 had to club him and throw his body into the 474 00:21:56,519 --> 00:21:58,720 freezing Neva River, where he finally drowned. 475 00:21:58,839 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: It's an epic struggle, but the clinical reality from autopsy 476 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,039 reports and his daughter's own account is much less dramatic. 477 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,599 Speaker 2: It paints a very different picture. First, his daughter said 478 00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:11,039 he hated sweet, so the cyanide cake story is probably 479 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,400 nonsense right from the start. 480 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 3: And the autopsy. 481 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: The autopsy found no signs of drowning or poisons. The 482 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,559 actual cause of death was a single point plank bullet 483 00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:22,440 wound to the head. 484 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,759 Speaker 1: So it was just a straightforward brutal execution. 485 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: A swift and effective one, not some operatic battle. But 486 00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:31,039 you can see why the legend persisted, can't you. 487 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,039 Speaker 1: Absolutely When someone that big dies, people expect the death 488 00:22:35,079 --> 00:22:38,200 to match the life. The myth of his invincibility had 489 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,319 to be served, even if the facts didn't support it, and. 490 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 2: That move from legend to brutal fact really sets the 491 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,680 stage for solving the other great Romanov. 492 00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 3: Mystery, the fate of Anastasia. 493 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:51,839 Speaker 2: The youngest daughter of Nicholas's second after the family was 494 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,319 executed by the Bolsheviks. In nineteen eighteen. Rumors persisted for 495 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,880 decades that she somehow had escaped. 496 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: It was such a hopeful, romantic story to dozens of impostors, books. 497 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,559 Speaker 2: Plays, and that famous animated movie. Anastasia became this symbol 498 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,440 of lost royalty, the idea that one piece of that 499 00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:10,079 world had survived the massacre. 500 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: But science eventually provided the final heartbreaking answer. 501 00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:15,759 Speaker 2: It did. The first mass grave of the family was 502 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:19,279 found in nineteen ninety one, but they were missing two bodies, Alexi, 503 00:23:19,559 --> 00:23:22,759 the son, and one of the daughters, which just fueled 504 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:24,160 the Anastasia theories. 505 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: Even more until they found the second great. 506 00:23:26,319 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: In two thousand and seven. A second, smaller burial site 507 00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:31,920 was found nearby with the remains of the last two children. 508 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,559 And this is where mitochondrial DNA became absolutely crucial. 509 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: So explain that for us. Why was mitochondrial DNA or 510 00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:40,079 mt DNA the key? 511 00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:43,799 Speaker 2: Okay, So, unlike regular nuclear DNA, which is a mix 512 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:47,759 from both your parents, you inherit mitochondrial DNA only from 513 00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:51,799 your mother. It's passed down the maternal line almost unchanged. 514 00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: So you could trace the Romanov children's EMPTYDNA directly back 515 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,119 through their mother. The Czarina Alexandra all the way back. 516 00:23:58,039 --> 00:23:59,839 Speaker 2: To her grandmother, Queen Victoria of England. 517 00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: So all they needed was a DNA sample from a 518 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,000 living relative on that maternal line. 519 00:24:04,039 --> 00:24:07,079 Speaker 2: Precisely, they used a sample from Prince Philip, the Duke 520 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,559 of Edinburgh, who was a great nephew of the Zarina, 521 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,160 and when they compared the DNA for the bones to 522 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,119 his the match was perfect. 523 00:24:14,319 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 3: It was a definitive confirmation. 524 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,079 Speaker 2: It confirmed that all seven Romanov remains were accounted for. 525 00:24:20,039 --> 00:24:23,319 The two bodies in the second grave were Alexei and Anastasia. 526 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,240 The science was indisputable. 527 00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: So the hope of the surviving princess was finally traded 528 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,440 for the certainty of tragedy. She died with her family 529 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:32,119 in that cellar. 530 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,039 Speaker 2: The book was finally closed. 531 00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: For our final solved mystery, We're heading into the frazen 532 00:24:38,039 --> 00:24:41,599 North for a maritime disaster that confirmed the darkest and 533 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,480 most horrific theories about. 534 00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:45,279 Speaker 2: Its victim, The Lost Franklin Expedition. 535 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: This was the absolute peak of Victorian ambition and arrogance really. 536 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,519 Launched in eighteen forty five, Sir John Franklin took two 537 00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:57,400 cutting edge ships, the HMS Erebus and HMS Terror into 538 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,880 the Canadian Arctic to finally chart the North Thus passage. 539 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,079 Speaker 2: They had years of provisions, hundreds of men, the full 540 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,400 backing of the British Admiralty. They were completely confident, and 541 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:08,799 then they vanished. 542 00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:10,759 Speaker 1: They got trapped in the polarized and were never heard 543 00:25:10,799 --> 00:25:11,359 from again, and. 544 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,759 Speaker 2: Their disappearance became this massive national obsession in Britain for 545 00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:17,759 the next one hundred and fifty years, Expedition after expedition 546 00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:19,880 went looking for them. The only clues were a few 547 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,599 scattered notes left in Stone. 548 00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:25,079 Speaker 1: Cairns and the testimony of local Inuit hunters, which was 549 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,920 largely dismissed at the time right. 550 00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 2: But the big breakthrough came very very recently. The wreck 551 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:33,359 of the Erebus was found in twenty fourteen, and then 552 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,799 the Terror was found in twenty sixteen. 553 00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: Both of them incredibly well preserved by the freezing water. 554 00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: They were like time capsules yea. And the forensic analysis 555 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,440 of the remains and artifacts finally allowed us to piece 556 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:45,400 together what happened, and. 557 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 3: It confirmed the Grimace theories. 558 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 2: It did the men died from a combination of exposure, hypothermia, starvation, 559 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,480 and likely lead poisoning from their tinned food. 560 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: But it also confirmed the most terrible rumor of all, 561 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,920 the one the British is lablishment had denied for over 562 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:02,720 a century. 563 00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:07,279 Speaker 2: Cannibalism. Yes, the forensic evidence, specifically cut marks on the 564 00:26:07,279 --> 00:26:10,039 bones that were recovered from the crew's desperate march south, 565 00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:13,400 confirmed that the last survivors had resorted to eating their 566 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:14,960 dead comrades to stay alive. 567 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,839 Speaker 1: And this is exactly what the Inuit hunters had reported 568 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:19,680 seeing decades earlier, isn't. 569 00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: It It is They told the Victorian search parties they 570 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,680 had found the remains of white men with these strange marks, 571 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,680 and their accounts were dismissed as barbaric or unreliable. Finding 572 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,400 the ships didn't just solve the mystery, it corrected a 573 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,200 century of colonial denial. 574 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,559 Speaker 1: So the discovery is about more than just finding the ships. 575 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,519 Speaker 2: Oh much more, because the terror especially was found almost 576 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,440 perfectly intact. There are maps still on tables, doors are closed. 577 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:49,039 For the first time, researchers can learn in detail how 578 00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:51,559 they found themselves trapped in the ice, and how they 579 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,160 endured months, even years in the Arctic. 580 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,519 Speaker 1: So we're moving past just where are they to what 581 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,119 was daily life like for two years trapped on a 582 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,400 freezing ship exactly. 583 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: The mystery is over. Now the slow, detailed work of 584 00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:06,279 historical reconstruction can begin. 585 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,799 Speaker 1: Well, as we wrap up this edition of Thrilling Threads, 586 00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:11,640 It's pretty clear, isn't it. The journey from a compelling 587 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,240 legend to a confirmed fact is. It's a long one. 588 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 2: It's immense. It can take centuries of searching or the 589 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,519 invention of incredible new technologies like DNA testing or deep 590 00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:22,160 sea sonar. 591 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,759 Speaker 1: And that final solution a cracking glacier, a pack of wolves, 592 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:32,039 a corrupt valet, the grim reality of starvation. It's almost 593 00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:35,440 always less traumatic, less romantic than the myth it replaces. 594 00:27:35,519 --> 00:27:39,079 Speaker 2: It is, but that confirmation gives us clarity. It gives 595 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,799 us a much more stable, grounded way of understanding our 596 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:42,359 own past. 597 00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: I think what these solve mysteries really tell us about 598 00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:47,920 is well us about human nature. 599 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,599 Speaker 2: Absolutely, we want to believe in the lost twin brother, 600 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,839 the giant sea monster, the princess who escaped. We invent 601 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,799 these incredible stories to fill in the. 602 00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: Blanks, and those stories say more about our own hopes 603 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,519 and fears than they do about what actually happened. 604 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: The facts might strip away the romance, but they leave 605 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:06,240 us with genuine, hard won knowledge, and that's a much 606 00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:07,480 stronger foundation, I think. 607 00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: So we want to leave you with a final thought 608 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,680 to ponder, based on everything we've looked at today. 609 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 2: Here it is. If you had the choice between an 610 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,000 astonishing unsolved historical mystery, say the man in the iron 611 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,079 mask really is the King's twin. 612 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: Or a definitively scientifically proven but mundane or tragic or 613 00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:29,920 even ugly truth, which would you prefer history to deliver. 614 00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:32,519 Are some secrets better left in the shadows for the 615 00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:36,279 sake of a good story, or is absolute knowledge always 616 00:28:36,319 --> 00:28:36,640 the goal? 617 00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear what you think about that tension 618 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,440 between romance and resolution. Let us know what makes history 619 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:42,559 truly thrilling for you.