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True Murder with 55 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:51.680 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 56 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:56.639 On December thirteenth, nineteen thirty four, Albert Fish was apprehended 57 00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:59.840 by Detective William King for the kidnapping and murdered of 58 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.439 ten year old Grace Bud. Fish's defense attorney obtained the 59 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:10.520 services of doctor Frederick Wordham for Fish's psychiatric examination. Doctor 60 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:15.000 Wordham's files were ordered closed until two thousand and ten. 61 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:19.560 Documents from Wordham's files, including confessions and writings by Albert Fish, 62 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.639 are published here for the very first time in history, 63 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:28.360 fully illustrated. Including confessions and other writings, includes never before 64 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:32.680 seen documents handwritten by Albert Fish. Fish's own story of 65 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.319 Weird Life, written by Albert Fish for the New York 66 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:39.960 Daily Mere newspaper, from the files of doctor Wurdham, Fish's 67 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:45.800 psychiatric examination and Rorschach test results Masks Have No Ears 68 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:49.360 from doctor Frederick Wordham's book, The Show of Violence also 69 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:54.360 includes court documents, correspondence, Grace Budd and Billy Gaffney, confessions, 70 00:03:54.400 --> 00:04:00.719 newspaper excerpts, photographs, and Fish's vile letters. That we're featuring 71 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:03.120 this evening is Albert Fish in his own words, with 72 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:08.599 my special guest, filmmaker and author John Barrowsky. Welcome to 73 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:10.599 the program, and thank you very much for green to 74 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:15.080 this interview. John Barowski, Hi, thanks. 75 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:17.800 For having me on. And yeah, I think you know, 76 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.560 Fish's case is definitely the most shocking. I mean, obviously 77 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.040 these you know, serial killers are all pretty brutal, but 78 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:30.639 to me personally, Fish is the most depraved, deranged and 79 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:35.079 you know, just pretty much the one that would give 80 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:35.839 me nightmares. 81 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:39.680 Sure, we're going to find that out in the next hour. 82 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:44.680 All about that from your fascinating book, Albert Fish in 83 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:49.519 his own words. Now, just as the Indian in the introduction, 84 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:53.480 we talked about that doctor Wurdham's files were ordered closed 85 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:58.879 until twenty ten, So since nineteen thirty five till twenty ten, 86 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.240 incredible amount of time. Tell us how you became in 87 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:08.079 a position to know about this and why. Again, you've 88 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:10.759 just alluded to why you would want to write this book, 89 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.040 But tell us how you became in a position to 90 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:17.360 write this book, and how you knew about the files 91 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:20.000 being released in twenty ten. Tell us a little bit 92 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:20.399 about that. 93 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:25.639 Sure, Well, my film on Albert Fish was released be 94 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:30.199 Leave around two thousand and seven, and you know, I 95 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.839 had always been fascinated with the case. It was a 96 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:36.920 follow up to my first film on HH. Holmes, America's 97 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:42.199 first serial killer. And once again, after I had made Holmes, 98 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:44.800 you know, no one had made a film on AHH. Holmes, 99 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.879 and I was thinking of my second topic, and I 100 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:51.879 heard about Albert Fish, of course, and thought, once again, 101 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:54.160 why didn't anyone make the film up this guy? I mean, 102 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:57.839 it's fascinating. These early true crime stories are extremely fascinating. 103 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.240 And that's why when I created my documentary feature films 104 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:07.800 there focusing on pre nineteen forties serial killers, usually because 105 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.000 of the lack of forensics, how long they may have 106 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:15.560 gotten away with these crimes. So after I finished the film, 107 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.399 which there was a there was research available. While I 108 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:21.720 was making the film, there were books on Fish and 109 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:24.439 other information. And then of course from my film, I 110 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:28.480 had interviewed experts and filmed some location footage of whatever's 111 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:33.120 left since Fish and time period, and I had found 112 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:36.279 out online that I had done researching, of course with 113 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.759 doctor Wortham's files, and I had found out online that 114 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:43.279 there were a portion of this files regarding Albert Fish 115 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:47.480 that were sealed until twenty ten. So once twenty ten 116 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:50.319 rolled around, of course I wanted to know what was 117 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:57.120 in these sealed files, and there was a wealth of information. Everything, 118 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:02.120 as you stated in the opening from Fish's Rorshach test, 119 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:07.279 where interestingly enough but not surprising. Everything he basically saw 120 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:10.639 on the ink blots was you know, an ass or 121 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:14.120 a penis or things that he was fascinated by, you know, 122 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:18.759 being into smm man, you know, cannibalizing museum children in 123 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:22.879 the nineteen twenties in New York City. But there were 124 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:27.680 also many other writings. There were confessions that Fish wrote 125 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.560 in his own handwriting that I had never read before, 126 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.279 and they had never been published. They were a little 127 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:36.639 difficult to read because his handwriting was not easy to read, 128 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.839 so I hired a transcriptionist to transcribe all of his letters. 129 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:44.000 So throughout the book, there'll be a letter from Albert 130 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:47.839 Fish and the transcription making it easy for readers to read. 131 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.160 But when I published my books on true crime, I 132 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:55.319 do like to release the original files from my research 133 00:07:55.480 --> 00:08:00.120 because many authors write books, you know, on serial killers, 134 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:02.959 and they give their own opinion. Some of them even 135 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:08.079 say they're factual and they're true crime books. But some 136 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:12.079 of these books, I've found things that were created, which 137 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:15.759 you know, through my research, I could never find where 138 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:19.160 they found these items that they added to the books. 139 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:22.560 So there I found out that their true crime books 140 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.279 weren't one hundred percent true. So that's why again, when 141 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:30.040 you're looking at original case files, you know, I don't 142 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:32.279 think you get you know, more truth than that. Sure, 143 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.039 sometimes you know, the confessions maybe lies, but you know, 144 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:39.279 I really don't put many newspaper excerpts in my books 145 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.639 because once again, you know, the further back you go, 146 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.159 the newspapers are kind of like the National Inquirer, and 147 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.320 you really can't put too much research emphasis, you know, 148 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:52.000 on those they were sensational, you know, so and I figured, 149 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:55.559 you know, you know, get these scans of you know, 150 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:59.159 all of these documents and put this book together. So 151 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:03.559 other researchs you know, could have all this material basically 152 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:05.960 in one book without having to go to the Library 153 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:09.519 of Condress or go to all these historical societies, you know, 154 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:11.919 or between twenty and thirty dollars. You've got all this 155 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.120 information in the book. And you know, some people may say, well, 156 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:17.759 it's just the true crime case styles, but once again, 157 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:21.360 you know, you can't find any other book that has 158 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:25.320 these materials in there. You have to do research, request materials, 159 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:28.799 paid for copies, and that's pretty expensive. Like my first 160 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:32.120 book on AHH. Holmes and strange case of doctor at Holmes. 161 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:36.480 You know, I had many of those books, you know, scanned, 162 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:40.559 and you know I paid hundreds of dollars, you know, 163 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:43.399 to have all that information, and you know you can't 164 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:46.279 find especially like AH Holmes, some of those books were 165 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:49.720 from you know, the late eighteen hundreds. It's pretty much 166 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:54.360 impossible to actually find a copy of those. And through 167 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.759 my diligent research, like for Homes, I had found the 168 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:00.159 actual one of the actual original Homes title casebook and 169 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:03.879 then Holmes' own story throwing two copies in the world 170 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:06.600 that are still in existence, one at the Library of 171 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:11.759 Congress and one at a Toronto library. So you know, 172 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:15.080 again The whole idea is to share my research, you know, 173 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:18.240 after you know I've made films on these serial killers. 174 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:22.799 The last biography I did of a serial killer was 175 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:26.120 Carl pans Ram, and that's going to be my next book, 176 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:28.960 but it's going to focus on his time at Leavenworth 177 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:33.080 because interestingly enough, when you read the only book that's 178 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.480 available one only book that's available on Carl pans Ram, 179 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:39.240 which was written by Thomas Gaddis, who also wrote The 180 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:43.600 Birdman of Alcatraz and then Jim Long, when you read 181 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:47.039 that book, the whole second half of the book was 182 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:51.360 based on Robert Stroud's writings on Carl pans Ram. Because 183 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.600 Robert Stroud, he wasn't the Birdman of Alcatraz, he was 184 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.320 the Birdman of Leavenworth. He had the bird that Levenworth. 185 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:01.159 So already that's not a true crime book, kido. And 186 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.039 luckily for the Birdman of Eltcut Trash, Tom Gattis was 187 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.039 smart enough to put in the front front of the 188 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:11.120 book that some things were fictionalized. So Robert Stroud was 189 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.960 right across the cells directly. He had two cells for 190 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.200 all his birds, but he was directly across the cell 191 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:20.279 from Carl pans Ram, so he observed everything and he 192 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.039 wrote everything. The writers of the book Killer of Journal 193 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.000 of Murder, they did not have access to the federal 194 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:29.840 files which I had access to. So once again, there 195 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:31.840 are reasons why I want to publish a book on 196 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:35.120 pans around that love and Worth, which really won't conflict 197 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.360 with their book because their book has all of pans 198 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:39.279 Ram's writings in it. But I want to fill in 199 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:42.440 a lot of that information of what happened at Levenworth, 200 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.279 you know, the first federal pen country, and he was 201 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:49.279 the first prisoner executed at a federal pen and pen country. 202 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:51.720 So you know, again, we could go down on for 203 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.120 hours on all these issues and there, you know, I'll 204 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.639 I'll let you bring it back to the topic. 205 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.120 Let's let's get to what you did find. And I mean, 206 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:05.559 there is some information that I have read before, but 207 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:09.440 let's talk about the information that is exclusive. And let's 208 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:12.440 get back for those people that don't know about this 209 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:16.600 Albert Fish's troubled life. Take us back to he was 210 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.159 born in eighteen seventy in Washington, but you talk about 211 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.720 eighteen seventy five, his life becomes very very interesting and 212 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.879 tell us about his father's death and the orphanage and 213 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.200 the effect of what he did see and experience in 214 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:34.039 that orphanage. 215 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:40.480 Yeah, you know, the orphanage for Albert Fish was you know, 216 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:45.039 kind of like the genesis for the rest the direction 217 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.320 for the rest of his life. And I've seen this 218 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:51.240 as I studied serial killers. I'm not a PhD expert. 219 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:54.000 I'm a filmmaker. I did go to film school, but 220 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:58.360 I've researched serial killers and I've also interviewed numerous forensic 221 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:02.159 psychologists and experts on killers. So I do consider myself 222 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:06.759 an expert on you know, serial killers and especially their 223 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:12.200 history and the time they grew up in. And you know, personally, 224 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:15.879 my belief is, you know, these serial killers are mainly 225 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:18.600 created by their environments. You know, there's all these different 226 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.519 beliefs of it could be genetic, it could be brain damage, 227 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.919 it could be a head injury, you know, you know 228 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:29.799 their triggers. It could be abuse. But you know, the 229 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.600 formative years, especially between seven and twelve, when these many 230 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.919 of these children see or experience things that could be traumatic, 231 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.679 it doesn't necessarily have to be an abuse. But with Fish, 232 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:44.399 it was twofold, so when he was in this orphanage, 233 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.679 what they would do is to punish the children. They 234 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:53.000 would strip the children naked, usually male, the male children, 235 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:57.039 they would strip them naked and whip them on their 236 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:03.879 bare behinds and force other children to watch this abuse 237 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:09.799 going down. So through that Fish developed his SNM fantasies, 238 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:11.960 and he even said it himself that at seven years 239 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:13.919 old he had his first sex ceiling because he was 240 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:16.519 turned on by that. He was turned on by watching 241 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.559 these kids abused and whipped, and he was turned on 242 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:23.360 when it was you know, given to him as well. 243 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.919 So you know, you look at the rest of his 244 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:29.879 entire life, it's no wonder that he's writing women and 245 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.320 all these other people desiring for asking them to whip 246 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:35.799 him and maybe he could do the same to them 247 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:40.440 and going as extreme as possible, so, you know, and 248 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:43.000 talking about Carl Panzram in a sense just to not 249 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:46.639 go too far off topic, but you know, he was 250 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:49.559 in a reform school and the same thing kind of 251 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:51.879 happened to him. You know that I found a punishment 252 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:55.240 slip from red wing reform school where he was at, 253 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:59.120 and on that punishment slip it said that he attempted 254 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:03.200 to escape and the punishment was has Sustainking well, he 255 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:05.879 that was his whole life over and over again. He 256 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:08.639 would break out of prisons. He broke into a prison 257 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.080 to rescue another prisoner. He got in, but he was caught. 258 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.679 He actually broke into a prison. You know, he would 259 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.240 break out of these prisons. Then he you know, would 260 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:21.440 be widthed and abused and tortured and electrocuted. And it's 261 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.200 the same kind of thing. Pans Ram's whole life is 262 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.399 on that one punishment slip. And that was the same 263 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:30.759 thing with Albert Fish. So we see that how trauma 264 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:33.639 and abuse could affect some of these children and maybe 265 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.120 not affect others. There. Yeah, I'm sure there are many 266 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:38.679 children we know. We know for a fact, you know, 267 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.240 Kyl Panzram had a brother that turned out to be 268 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.200 a police officer. You know, some children, don't, you know, 269 00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:48.360 go to these extremes, but some have that fagile mentality. 270 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:49.840 And Albert Fish is wanted me. 271 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:56.279 So what the thing is, what we passed over is 272 00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:00.399 that again this must have some psychological effect. But talk 273 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:03.559 about his father dying at five years old, and then 274 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.480 the reason why he's even in an orphanage in the 275 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:08.480 first place seems odd to us looking at this Now 276 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.320 why was he put in the orphanage of his mother 277 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:15.440 was working, so why he was not actually an orphan 278 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.440 So tell us the circumstances and tell us how long 279 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.120 he was in here before he was again reunited with 280 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.360 his family. We talked about some of the things he's 281 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.480 learned in there, but the very first circumstances, how he 282 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.120 got to the orphanage in the first place. 283 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:34.279 Yeah, some of his early you know, childhood is unclear 284 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:37.919 to me. You know, I've researched his entire life, but 285 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:40.120 maybe you could fill in some of that because I 286 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.399 do remember he was sent to an orphanage and there 287 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:45.159 were some issues with his family, and his family also 288 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:49.879 had a religious you know, psychosis that he actually had 289 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:52.360 as well, so there may be some of this genetic 290 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:53.559 influence on him as well. 291 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:58.200 Well. You talk about that there's seven relatives that and 292 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.799 I don't know who made this assessment, And again I 293 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:04.039 find it fascinating that this long ago that they were 294 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:09.880 making the psychopathic personality diagnosis. I'm very very surprised by that. 295 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:12.079 But they said that. You say in the book that 296 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:18.519 there was seven relatives including or including fish that either 297 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:26.039 had some noted yesl illness or psychosis or psychopathic personality. 298 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.559 You talk about that his father died at five years old, 299 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:33.640 his mother was working but still felt the need to 300 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:38.200 put him in the orphanage. And you say he learned 301 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:43.680 many of the deviations and paraphilias that he was afflicted by, 302 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:46.839 we'll say, for lack of better term, were rooted in 303 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.000 his stay at this institution here. When did he, as 304 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:52.599 you write in a book, when did he get out? 305 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.720 And what was his behavior like after this? 306 00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:59.839 Well, you know, the writings in the book are actually 307 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:02.480 like from there from doctor Wortham. You know. The only 308 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.640 thing I may have writtain was the foreword, you know, 309 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:09.160 so you know, I know eventually he was released, and 310 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:13.240 you know he did marry and had children and grandchildren, 311 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:19.359 so you know, there there was a period of time 312 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:22.480 where he was obviously on his own, and even when 313 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:25.000 he was with his wife, he had felt restricted where 314 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:28.000 he was, you know, felt he wasn't able to do 315 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:31.279 ultimately all the things that you know he truly wanted 316 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:34.160 to do. And we'll get to that point later as well. 317 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:38.960 But you know, eventually he did marry and supposedly, you know, 318 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:42.319 his family said he never you know, harmed them or 319 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.720 spoke you know, a bad word to them. He never swore, 320 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.799 never made a hand to them. And you know that 321 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:53.319 also fits in with his duality of serial killers where 322 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.480 they can have a family and fool them at the 323 00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:57.680 same time they're doing these other devious acts. 324 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.599 Previous stough to him being married that there was a 325 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:09.000 he does get a run in with the law before that, 326 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:13.920 and you talk about actually being examined a couple of 327 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:16.480 times at hospital, so we'll have to go into when 328 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:19.200 that is. He develops a job though, he has a 329 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:22.640 trade that enables him and I guess enabled him to 330 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:24.960 be able to do some of this, some of the 331 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.400 murderous stuff he does and the violence that he does. 332 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:31.640 What's that occupation that he eventually, even for a lifetime, 333 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.599 develops this occupation that he undertakes. 334 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.359 Yeah, he was a house painter, so you know, he 335 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:44.480 was always traveling, always on the go, and additionally, he 336 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:49.759 always had these empty spaces available to him to potentially 337 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:54.039 bring his victims to do whatever he wanted. So very 338 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:56.240 you know much of this fits in with the m 339 00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:01.240 serial killer traveling. He traveled all across the US US. 340 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.839 You know, he had these places of opportunity and victims 341 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:07.880 of opportunity. Many times at that time period he said 342 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.680 he would target you know, young African American male children 343 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:14.599 because no one cared about them, which is a sad truth. 344 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.799 You say too, that that all along the way he 345 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:30.200 developed the paraphilia of saddism and masochism, but also that 346 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.799 he wanted to inflict pain as he he enjoyed hearing 347 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:36.720 other people's pain, but he also enjoyed pain himself. To 348 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:40.160 that end, we'll talk about the needles. But what did 349 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.960 he first begin with simply in terms of inflicting pain 350 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.400 on himself? And was there any we talked about his 351 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:53.519 religiosity and the families, was there some connection there with 352 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:55.759 that religiosity. 353 00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:59.640 Yeah, there was connection. You know. It was known that 354 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:02.279 you know, one or more members of his family had 355 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:07.400 that same type of extreme religious dementia, you know, and 356 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.559 that was that may have been passed on to Albert 357 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:14.920 fish where you know, as the years went by, you know, 358 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:18.759 he took the Bible literally, you know, and he associated 359 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:22.920 the you know, a communion with drinking the blood of 360 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:27.039 Jesus and you know, tasting the body with the wafers, 361 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.319 you know, and he enacted that in real life, you know, 362 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.720 in a sense he thought that he was doing good 363 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:40.000 by murdering these children before they were violated or raped 364 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:43.119 by someone else and sending them straight to heaven. You know, 365 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:46.279 he also associated very strongly with the story of Abraham 366 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:49.440 and I that Abraham would kill his own child, you know, 367 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.839 and he had part of the religious dementia. He said 368 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.720 he would hear voices, you know, reading quotes from the Bible. 369 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.640 He would see Jesus and you know, have these visions 370 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:03.039 where he but toughsy things like you know, dash it's 371 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:06.920 their heads against the stone. And you know, he would 372 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.400 take Bible verses and put them in different orders kind of, 373 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:14.359 you know, in a way to create this pattern of 374 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.920 you know, almost you know, creating what he really wanted 375 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.480 to do. So it was you know, and was he 376 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:24.119 blaming it, We don't know, but I think it's you know, 377 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:27.519 there if you look at his case and all his 378 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:31.720 actions and especially his writings, especially as the Great Spud Letter, 379 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:36.400 when at the end, you know, the last line what 380 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:40.279 now you know, he obviously you know, kidnaps the girl, 381 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.480 which you know he says he didn't because they let 382 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:47.279 him take her, but you know, he murders her, cannibalizes her, 383 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:49.799 but he makes sure that the last line of his 384 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.279 letter that you wrote to her mother says I did 385 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:58.359 not fuck her, which is very important because that's okay 386 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.839 that he didn't do that. But what about murdering and 387 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:06.039 cannibalizing her? You know, that's fine, you know, And again 388 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:08.640 that goes in with you know, the whole sex before 389 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.279 marriage and possibly saving this child before she was violated 390 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:16.079 by somebody else, and in his mind it got completely twisted. 391 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:19.400 And that is one of the most extreme things about 392 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:24.480 Elberfish that again differentiates him from other serial killers. He 393 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:28.680 committed all sorts of tortures on his body as penance 394 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:31.880 for killing these children, you know, much like the Philagellons 395 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:34.319 and the days of old who would whip their with 396 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.440 themselves on their backs until they were bloody to absolve 397 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:40.440 their sins. He did the same thing, but he took 398 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:43.440 it to huge extremes. You know, his son one time 399 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:48.440 saw him beating himself bloody with a paddle that Albertfish 400 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:52.880 treated himself, where he took this paddle and hammered all 401 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:54.720