Speaker 1: I've heard people say getting atheists together is like herting cats,
Speaker 1: or if you've got three atheists in a room, you've
Speaker 1: got four opinions on something. You just can't get free
Speaker 1: thinkers to organize. Well, I think that's crap. Not only
Speaker 1: not only can atheists organize, but we have to now
Speaker 1: more than ever. We need to come together to build thriving, diverse,
Speaker 1: and functioning communities. And for that we need good leaders
Speaker 1: to get that, we need classes that teach us how
Speaker 1: to lead. So good news, our guest today is going
Speaker 1: to tell us how we can do this and how
Speaker 1: you can help build the next generation of secular leaders.
Speaker 1: But hey, if you think atheist community is a bad idea,
Speaker 1: give us a call because the show's starting right now.
Speaker 2: Whooh, what is up?
Speaker 1: Everybody? Thank you, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Today is April fifth, twenty twenty s and that's right.
Speaker 1: I am your host, the Secular Jesus Christ. I appreciate
Speaker 1: all of you for joining us today. I have spent
Speaker 1: the last few days fighting my way out of both
Speaker 1: a linen cloth that I do hope my followers will
Speaker 1: find in the future and know of my presence, as
Speaker 1: well as.
Speaker 2: Rolling a very large boulder out of the way.
Speaker 1: So I'm very proud that I have I have come
Speaker 1: back to you this this second time, and I just
Speaker 1: want to say that.
Speaker 2: All of your sins are forgiven on this holiest of days.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much, folks for joining with us today.
Speaker 1: I'm really really excited that we are going to have
Speaker 1: a fun show. And not only are we we doing
Speaker 1: this on YouTube, but we're actually try streaming, is what
Speaker 1: I have been told. Now I am not hip enough
Speaker 1: to know exactly what that means, but that tells me
Speaker 1: that we are on TikTok YouTube mobile and just your
Speaker 1: regular horizontal YouTube show. So we will actually be checking
Speaker 1: on TikTok. And if you'd like to talk to us,
Speaker 1: just request to join and we'll bring you up on stage.
Speaker 1: Just make sure that you are eighteen years of age
Speaker 1: before doing so. Worth noting that this wonderful show, The
Speaker 1: Atheist Experience, is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin,
Speaker 1: a five to one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to
Speaker 1: the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the
Speaker 1: separation of religion and government. I think all of those
Speaker 1: things are absolutely freaking wonderful. And I'm wondering if we could,
Speaker 1: if we could get our awesome, awesome backup host up here. Today,
Speaker 1: we have somebody super cool with me, somebody that I
Speaker 1: have never made fun of on this show or any
Speaker 1: others whatsoever.
Speaker 2: It is Sophia, what's up? Hello?
Speaker 3: I mean you, I guess you better not make fun
Speaker 3: of me behind my back. You do, please do it
Speaker 3: to my face so that I can also enjoy.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's really what it is, you know. And
Speaker 1: that's what friends do. Friends tell each other to their faces. Hey,
Speaker 1: please stop that, man, it's really annoying. Nobody enjoys this,
Speaker 1: by the way, and like, and you know, not to
Speaker 1: like anybody in particular Kevin, but just throwing this out there, okay,
Speaker 1: Like when you grill stuff a lot of times.
Speaker 2: Like you, you like, don't season it a bunch, you know.
Speaker 1: And and all that we're asking is when we come
Speaker 1: over on Thursdays for the monthly thing, if you could
Speaker 1: just maybe just let us just let us do it once,
Speaker 1: you know, Like I know how to grill, A lot
Speaker 1: of us know how to cook.
Speaker 4: I just.
Speaker 2: No one in particular.
Speaker 3: You know, Kevin is the most generic white dude name
Speaker 3: I can think of and so it's just like some
Speaker 3: generic white dude isn't seasoning grilled meat?
Speaker 5: That's a shot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, who would thought the.
Speaker 5: Number of pevens that that applied to.
Speaker 2: So many people feel called out right now.
Speaker 5: It's really going to think you are Jesus I that you.
Speaker 2: I prophesy, that's right, Yeah, I am here.
Speaker 5: For it prophecy or just an observation of the thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's probably just like just an accurate description of
Speaker 1: the world that we live in, you know, fortunately or unfortunately.
Speaker 1: But the good news is that we we are not
Speaker 1: here to to cook, we are not here to to grill.
Speaker 1: We well, I mean, maybe we'll grill a little, you know,
Speaker 1: if they're if they've got bad, bad ideas or bad arguments,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll grill a little.
Speaker 5: So, and don't the cool kids say like cooking, like that's.
Speaker 3: A good thing, like cooking or yeah, cooking or both slaying.
Speaker 2: Yeah they're both. Yeah, cooked and cooking right are both.
Speaker 1: They're they're the terminologies that the young ends are using.
Speaker 1: Is that does that already make me even older than
Speaker 1: I am? Just by saying the young ens old?
Speaker 5: Yeah, old, I believe so you are an olden an.
Speaker 1: Olden but a good that's an okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I'm you know, ah, I was
Speaker 2: just gonna say. The crew is like just furiously shaking
Speaker 2: their heads right now.
Speaker 5: It's just very disappointed with us. It's not why people
Speaker 5: tune into the show, you know what.
Speaker 2: That's okay, that's all right.
Speaker 1: There is a reason that people tune into this show though,
Speaker 1: and one of those reasons is because we get some
Speaker 1: calls from people who have arguments for you know, the
Speaker 1: existence of a God or the supernatural things, and we
Speaker 1: are open to having our minds changed. I am willing
Speaker 1: to change my position if if I am presented with
Speaker 1: some good stuff. And of all days, of all days,
Speaker 1: I think this is is a good day for us
Speaker 1: to get some arguments for the existence of God.
Speaker 2: What do you think?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're gonna be saved, why not on
Speaker 3: Zombie Jesus Chocolate Day.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: I know we're supposed to really own that, like Easter
Speaker 3: is an atheist pagan thing, but I just think Zombie
Speaker 3: Jesus Chocolate Day is cute.
Speaker 1: I Like, I really enjoy that, and I wish they
Speaker 1: would do chocolate Easter bunnies and like Jesus Easter chocolate things,
Speaker 1: you know, like that would be super fun.
Speaker 2: You know, just imagine a little almost statue of Jesus
Speaker 2: like that. But all time have you.
Speaker 3: Seen those little like I see them everywhere now, these
Speaker 3: little plastic Jesus is.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've got one somewhere on my desk actually
Speaker 1: there where.
Speaker 5: I've seen them, in a public toilet, I've seen them. Like,
Speaker 5: at some point, this has.
Speaker 3: Gotta feel sacrilegious, right, this has gotta feel weird to
Speaker 3: the people who are holding on to it.
Speaker 1: So okay, so since you brought it up, I will
Speaker 1: throw this out there. I feel like at some point
Speaker 1: in the Bible, and I don't remember where entirely, but
Speaker 1: there was like a like a list of like seven
Speaker 1: eight nine something like that, like what I guess, like
Speaker 1: commands I guess if you would, And one of those
Speaker 1: specifically was something about like graven images or idols or
Speaker 1: I think that.
Speaker 3: I'm sure it doesn't apply to you know, evangelicals putting
Speaker 3: you know, non biodegradable bits into also plastic Easter eggs
Speaker 3: that are probably made in you know, shops around the
Speaker 3: world that are inhumane in their labor practices.
Speaker 5: I'm sure no, I'm.
Speaker 1: Sure there's nothing about that practice at all that that
Speaker 1: in any way, shape or form could be viewed as
Speaker 1: anti biblical or yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 3: Hey, you know what is worse the I was sorry,
Speaker 3: so many things went through my head that became so
Speaker 3: potentially problematic to say on air. But I was just
Speaker 3: gonna sort of generally vaguely gesture toward the uh, toward
Speaker 3: the left. They're bad, They're worse anyway, no matter, no
Speaker 3: matter what is done.
Speaker 2: But yes, yes it is true.
Speaker 3: But insert there all the inappropriate things I.
Speaker 5: Could have said. That you right, thinking, if you're a listener, yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, right right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1: Well, we do have some wonderful, wonderful calls that are
Speaker 1: already coming in, and I am very excited to go to.
Speaker 2: Some of these.
Speaker 1: What if we grab a call real quick and then
Speaker 1: we will bring on our awesome special guest and talk
Speaker 1: about some cool things that we can do to get
Speaker 1: secular leadership going.
Speaker 2: What do you think? Sofia, Sure sounds great.
Speaker 5: I'm happy to stay here for the first call.
Speaker 2: Let's do it. I want to take a call with
Speaker 2: you because I think this one will be fun.
Speaker 5: We are gonna go all together.
Speaker 2: I know, right, this is a big deal. This is like,
Speaker 2: this is you know, one year from now, we'll remember this.
Speaker 1: We have Steve in Ohio no pronouns given, as a
Speaker 1: theist and wants to talk about some biblical prophecies.
Speaker 2: I'm into it.
Speaker 1: Steve, you are on the atheist experience with Sophia and secularity.
Speaker 2: What's up?
Speaker 6: Thank you, Thank you for having me on the show.
Speaker 6: I appreciate that. Yeah, I was the current events for
Speaker 6: everything going on, and I figured i'd give you a
Speaker 6: call and give you my insight. So yeah, I don't know, Okay,
Speaker 6: yeah you know, Daniel, chapter eight, I've been looking eyeballing
Speaker 6: that story for a long time, like thirty thirty years,
Speaker 6: thirty plus. So I got kind of stuck on it
Speaker 6: because as it was about, I thought our country. But anyways, yeah,
Speaker 6: so that's where where we're at. So I don't know
Speaker 6: where we're going to. I know a lot about it,
Speaker 6: so I don't know where to go from here. So
Speaker 6: it's Daniel, great, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no worries, that's already that's already a decent a
Speaker 1: decent spot. And so like let me, let me just
Speaker 1: let me just see if I if I'm following with
Speaker 1: you here, it sounds like what you're saying is like
Speaker 1: this passage in the Bible is kind of referencing some
Speaker 1: of the things that we're seeing going on today in
Speaker 1: the world and in the Middle East, And yeah, absolutely
Speaker 1: is is is it? Is there ever really a time
Speaker 1: in the history of humanity where we couldn't make that connection,
Speaker 1: like like, let's say, like one hundred and fifty years ago, Like,
Speaker 1: do you think it would be fair that somebody one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years ago could look at that passage
Speaker 1: and then go, wow, the stuff that's happening right now
Speaker 1: in the Middle East?
Speaker 6: No, Like, no, really, that flies there's a flying goat
Speaker 6: that goes across the whole earth that says in the
Speaker 6: story it's to be two spirit and it goes over
Speaker 6: there and attacks the ram and then it returns without
Speaker 6: over touching the ground.
Speaker 1: Second, hang on just a second for me, Okay, I
Speaker 1: just want to make sure we're on the I just
Speaker 1: want to try to be on the same page as
Speaker 1: most as much as possible. So I'm sorry, I don't
Speaker 1: I don't want to fight or anything but clarify.
Speaker 6: It's something wrong. You could tell me what you need.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, no, no, no, no, I just I just want
Speaker 1: to understand. Like when you say there's like a goat
Speaker 1: flying and it attacks a ram, are you talking about
Speaker 1: like actual animals? Like, is there an actual goat that's flying?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I am actually talking about a flying goat. It's
Speaker 6: in Daniel chapter eight. It talks about a goat that
Speaker 6: crosses the whole this is out touching the ground. It's
Speaker 6: in verse five.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 6: And and and it's a king too. It's our first king,
Speaker 6: it says. And that was interesting that he said that.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, hang on, hang on, hang on, just real quick, Steve.
Speaker 1: I want to make I want to I want to
Speaker 1: make sure we're on the same page again. I get
Speaker 1: that you're I get that what you're referencing is talking
Speaker 1: about a goat that flies. And I'm asking you do
Speaker 1: you think that goats can fly? And do you think
Speaker 1: one is currently doing that towards the Middle East?
Speaker 7: Absolute?
Speaker 1: And so so hang on, no, hold on, hold right there,
Speaker 1: that's a beautiful, beautiful place.
Speaker 2: That's a beautiful spot. Just to just to pause, Sophia,
Speaker 2: is there anything.
Speaker 7: That statement that.
Speaker 2: That you think is kind of off?
Speaker 1: Is there anything about that statement, Sofia, you're a little
Speaker 1: confused about that.
Speaker 5: They're that a literal goat is flying through the sky, and.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, well just a second ago you said you
Speaker 1: thought it's could fly and there was one fly.
Speaker 6: No, I'm saying no, no, I'm saying, well, I'm sorry,
Speaker 6: symbolic it's the flying true spirit, is what I was saying.
Speaker 6: I did say that.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's okay, Okay.
Speaker 6: It's even got the face on it. If you look
Speaker 6: at the face, it's got eyes, mouth, nose. Now, it's okay.
Speaker 2: Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Speaker 1: Okay, just to be clear, Just to be clear, you're
Speaker 1: not saying that the actual animal a goat, that thing
Speaker 1: with like the hair and the ba and the and
Speaker 1: the hoofs and the horns.
Speaker 2: You're not saying that's flying.
Speaker 1: What you're saying is that is referencing a plane that
Speaker 1: the United States is currently sending over to the Middle East.
Speaker 6: Yes, they even Why would hang the name.
Speaker 2: Hang on, hang on, hang on. I'm with you, Steve.
Speaker 2: We don't have to.
Speaker 1: We can go one at a time. Why do you
Speaker 1: make that connection? What about that passage that makes you
Speaker 1: makes you think it's referencing this thing.
Speaker 6: Now, okay, because the story in verse seventeen and nineteen
Speaker 6: says it's time of the end. Okay, So we're at
Speaker 6: the end of the age right now. That's number one.
Speaker 2: And the question according yeah, what what age are we ending?
Speaker 2: And according to what?
Speaker 6: Well, according to the story here, we're at the end
Speaker 6: of the age, it says. Okay. And just one other
Speaker 6: thing is that word fury is in verse six and
Speaker 6: that's epic to me. Okay, it's we're attacking them right now.
Speaker 3: And okay, but it came to a two horned ram.
Speaker 3: What is the two horned ram that the one horn
Speaker 3: is attacking?
Speaker 7: It's a needing okay.
Speaker 6: So you're thinking the supreme leader in the present go ahead, okay.
Speaker 3: So you're thinking that the two horned ram is Iran?
Speaker 5: Is that what I'm gathering here?
Speaker 6: And Multipower say all this, Actually you asked me questions,
Speaker 6: so I don't know what you want me. You know, yes,
Speaker 6: you're right there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're not talking about specific political parties.
Speaker 8: Are you saying?
Speaker 3: This is just resented that a country exists in the world.
Speaker 3: I appreciate your caution though, okay. And the ram is
Speaker 3: parerless stand against it. So it does seem like but
Speaker 3: then the goat became very great.
Speaker 5: At the head of its paradolage horn was broken off.
Speaker 3: Yes, and in its place, four prominent horns grew up
Speaker 3: toward the four winds of heaven.
Speaker 5: Yes, is it four planes? Is it like?
Speaker 6: No? No, that that the goat. Okay, go ahead, I'm sorry,
Speaker 6: I didn't I didn't know. I think you're asking me
Speaker 6: to go ahead.
Speaker 3: No, just like, connect these for me, because because you're mentioning,
Speaker 3: there's rage. And then we skip down to verse seventeen.
Speaker 3: So like some of the stuff in the middle, though,
Speaker 3: it gets a little little, a little crazy.
Speaker 5: So yeah, connect these things from me.
Speaker 6: Okay, I'll try my best. It is he has a
Speaker 6: vision and the angel on the second half of the
Speaker 6: story clears it up for him, basically tells them where
Speaker 6: all the symbols were. So it is a little more
Speaker 6: complicated than your average story, but it comes because it
Speaker 6: comes in two parts, which you can see it would
Speaker 6: be verse The one that we're in right now is
Speaker 6: verse six and seven. We're attacking them right now, is
Speaker 6: great this moment, and verse eight is what I'm worried about.
Speaker 6: That's comes after this, we win the war and then
Speaker 6: verse eight is next, and that's the Goat's very great
Speaker 6: and when he was stronger, the great horn was broken
Speaker 6: and four came up for it. So basically, our kingdom
Speaker 6: gets broken up, much like Alexander the Great. We're repeating
Speaker 6: time in the sense, I guess.
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 5: So it could have applied to Alexander the Great.
Speaker 2: Oh good question.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, it's time to the end though, yeah, the good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, why why did you do you think that this
Speaker 2: applied to Alexander the Great?
Speaker 6: The scholars throughout the years always said that, but it
Speaker 6: is time of the end. It says twice actually, and
Speaker 6: it makes it very clear. But they said, you know,
Speaker 6: for years it's Alexander the Great and we are Alexander
Speaker 6: is much like us. We're the modern Greece. Okay, we're
Speaker 6: from the west on the Western hemisphere from the time.
Speaker 1: Just a second, hang on, just second. I'm sorry, Steve,
Speaker 1: I just I just love to I love to try
Speaker 1: to keep these as focused as possible.
Speaker 2: You know, yes, no problem.
Speaker 1: The problem that I have is that I am familiar
Speaker 1: with this passage.
Speaker 2: I'm familiar with this.
Speaker 1: Whole scene here and Daniel, but The reason that I'm
Speaker 1: familiar with it is because when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: the United States and other countries engaged in various military
Speaker 1: operations in Iraq.
Speaker 6: I watched it ahead of it.
Speaker 2: And so I was told that this applied to that.
Speaker 1: So are those people wrong, and if they are, why
Speaker 1: are you irrect?
Speaker 6: Well, okay, I watched all the wars. I'm sixty two,
Speaker 6: so I saw it from ninety one on through two
Speaker 6: thousand and three. I saw it all, and I wondered
Speaker 6: about the same thing at the time. Okay, but I
Speaker 6: do keep patient. I just moll things over until I
Speaker 6: get the answer. And I got the answers now. But yeah,
Speaker 6: I know what you're saying. It can be like, well
Speaker 6: is that Iraq? What do we do the same thing?
Speaker 6: We did something similar. The difference is we went over
Speaker 6: the Atlantic this way. We came from the West before
Speaker 6: we went the other way over the Pacific when we
Speaker 6: attacked Iraq, wouldn't be two spirit.
Speaker 1: Just just to be clear, are you saying that the
Speaker 1: main reason that you believe this passage in Daniel refers
Speaker 1: to the current situation we're experiencing in the world, and
Speaker 1: not earlier times like in two thousand and four, two
Speaker 1: thousand and three, whatever is because we came from a
Speaker 1: different direction.
Speaker 2: Do you really believe that that.
Speaker 1: Is something that is a valuable piece of information for
Speaker 1: determining the truth of this prophecy?
Speaker 6: Alexa said, Alexa, I'm sorry it says Persa though a
Speaker 6: person we know is in Iraq.
Speaker 5: We know that, and Greece, so we're not saying that.
Speaker 3: So we're saying that we are the Kingdom of Greece,
Speaker 3: but it's saying it's Persia, and we're holding on to
Speaker 3: Persia and saying that that's literally Persia, but we're not
Speaker 3: literally Greece Greece.
Speaker 6: So it kind of feels like it's twenty five hundred
Speaker 6: years ago. He didn't say it was a man. I mean,
Speaker 6: he couldn't have said that. It would be you know,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 7: That why not he?
Speaker 2: But God was inspiring us?
Speaker 3: And why not Kazakhstan? Why not any other country? For
Speaker 3: we've attacked lots of other countries. Yeah, but I'm saying that,
Speaker 3: like we, they also would not have had knowledge of that.
Speaker 3: So for saying Greece can be America, then I guess
Speaker 3: Persia could also be Mongolia, it could be Ethiopia, could
Speaker 3: be whatever other place the author didn't know of at
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 6: You know, in front of you, this is going on
Speaker 6: right now.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's possible. It's it's a really basic question.
Speaker 1: It's a really basic question, just a yes or no.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's possible that you're mistaken?
Speaker 7: Steve?
Speaker 1: No, and I would lay anything about Okay, hang on
Speaker 1: it cool, then I can I can just mute you
Speaker 1: for a second so I can say this, which is
Speaker 1: I tend to as as a knee jerk reaction. When
Speaker 1: somebody tells me they are one, one hundred percent confident
Speaker 1: they can't be mistaken, I tend to not believe them
Speaker 1: right now. That's not a fantastic methodology on my part,
Speaker 1: but the history of the world has showed me anytime
Speaker 1: somebody makes that bold of a claim that they could
Speaker 1: not absolutely could not be mistaken, I can find a
Speaker 1: billion frickin' examples really quick when they're just wrong. And
Speaker 1: so I think unless you have something a bit more
Speaker 1: concrete other than I just kind of feel like this,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna move on to somebody else because I think
Speaker 1: we do have some other people that might be able
Speaker 1: to present some things, But so far I don't know
Speaker 1: why I should listen to you more than I should
Speaker 1: the people that I didn't listen to back in the
Speaker 1: early two thousands, and also, by the way, didn't listen
Speaker 1: to any of the people talking about all this stuff
Speaker 1: through the Crusades and just all the way back through
Speaker 1: human history. So yeah, I don't know, Steve, gonna bring
Speaker 1: you back on. I don't have high hopes. I would
Speaker 1: love if when I bring you back on, there's going
Speaker 1: to be a beep and after that beep. I would
Speaker 1: love if you could say, look, here is a really
Speaker 1: solid piece of evidence that shows that that passage in
Speaker 1: Daniel was connected to today. Okay, that that would be
Speaker 1: just awesome for me. So I'm gonna pull you back in.
Speaker 1: It should beep alittle. But what what is the most
Speaker 1: convincing thing, the most convincing thing that connects this passage
Speaker 1: in Daniel to today?
Speaker 6: Okay to today? See you the lamb eighty eight. God's
Speaker 6: hiding it right in front of you. Know who Cede
Speaker 6: Lamb is. It's number eighty eight. Back to the future
Speaker 6: they go at eighty eight, they vanished. There's a lot
Speaker 6: more to this than you think.
Speaker 1: Everything's converted talking about Ceedee Lamb, the football receiver.
Speaker 6: You're talking about. It's right, yeah, eighty eight. Yep.
Speaker 2: Do you know why he is eighty eight?
Speaker 5: You what?
Speaker 6: Do you know?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 6: What's up?
Speaker 2: Do you know why his number is eighty eight?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Actually I do. I haven't written right here, Ceedee Lamb,
Speaker 6: where's number eighty eight? To honor the legacy of past
Speaker 6: cowboy grace like Drew Pearson, Michael Irvin so on. He
Speaker 6: wanted number ten though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but even he admitted it. It has nothing to
Speaker 2: do with the thing you're claiming it does.
Speaker 6: I'm just saying it's hide in plain sight.
Speaker 8: And also, but I'm.
Speaker 1: Just saying that you're just saying you're just making that up, Steve,
Speaker 1: And you know that you just admitted that you know this.
Speaker 1: You just admitted right there that you know that that's
Speaker 1: not true. Come on, man, you're better than this, Steve.
Speaker 2: I know you are. Man.
Speaker 6: Okay, one last thing, one last thing, okay, l after
Speaker 6: the war is done here we win this thing. We
Speaker 6: have number eighty eight. Our great horn will be broken.
Speaker 6: That is the Washington National Monument. It's going to be
Speaker 6: taken off. Now one stone will lay upon another that
Speaker 6: will not be thrown down.
Speaker 7: Even in the.
Speaker 3: Passage you're bringing up, the horn doesn't represent a little horn.
Speaker 3: It represents the four nations that become. So like we're
Speaker 3: really playing fast and loose with the literal and the figurative.
Speaker 3: And you know what, I've been sitting here, I think
Speaker 3: that this is actually referring to Queen Elizabeth the first
Speaker 3: breaking of the Spanish Armada.
Speaker 2: That may applies.
Speaker 3: Really well because then the you know, then the United
Speaker 3: king United Kingdom or the British Empire ended up breaking
Speaker 3: up after it, you know, rained from that.
Speaker 5: So you know, I actually think it's that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's good in verse eleven two, by the way,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know this, Steve. It says it set
Speaker 1: itself up to be as great as the commander of
Speaker 1: the army of the Lord. It took away the daily
Speaker 1: sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down.
Speaker 1: Now that relates perfectly to everything Sophia just said with
Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth.
Speaker 2: I mean, how can you disagree with that.
Speaker 6: It's a rise of the Antichrist. It comes after Ada,
Speaker 6: our nation gets broken, and then all hell breaks loose
Speaker 6: in this four on.
Speaker 1: Steve, I appreciate you because I had a fun time
Speaker 1: with that. I don't feel like we made much progress,
Speaker 1: which is why I got you muted right now, and
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna let you go.
Speaker 2: But here's good news. I love something tangible.
Speaker 1: It sounded to me like you said, the Washington Monument
Speaker 1: is gonna frick and topple.
Speaker 2: That is a testable future prediction.
Speaker 7: Baby.
Speaker 2: That is brand h brand new.
Speaker 1: And you know what, Steve, I look forward to your
Speaker 1: call at the end of twenty twenty six, when either
Speaker 1: it has or has not happened. Until then, though, see
Speaker 1: if you can find some more good reasons to connect
Speaker 1: biblical prophecy. I am not convinced by that, guys, I
Speaker 1: don't know about you.
Speaker 5: I am not either.
Speaker 3: I came up with a bunch of different examples too.
Speaker 3: I was like, honestly, this could refer to any colonial power,
Speaker 3: Like I was just it was sort of fun to
Speaker 3: just be like, what could this right?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Or maybe it actually has to do with On the
Speaker 3: Hills when Laura, when there's like that drama between the
Speaker 3: two main leads on the Hills and it's just like
Speaker 3: you know, reality TV and the mid Odds was crazy,
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of like breaking up into different
Speaker 3: you know, casts and groups.
Speaker 1: It just actually, oh my god, we should we should
Speaker 1: see if we could connect biblical prophecies to different reality
Speaker 1: TV shows and stuff.
Speaker 2: That would actually be right.
Speaker 5: Oh, I could do that in a heartbeat.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean maybe that's what I should do for
Speaker 3: the twenty four fundraise. I would be that would That's
Speaker 3: what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 2: Here's here's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 1: If if you're cool with it, Sophia, I am going
Speaker 1: to talk to doctor Daryl Ray about this awesome new
Speaker 1: thing he's got going, and you can start working on
Speaker 1: that in the background, and we'll pull you on when
Speaker 1: we need some more help.
Speaker 2: With calls afect. You are awesome.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, and I am thrilled because I
Speaker 1: am here with the legend himself, Doctor Daryl Ray.
Speaker 2: Hey man, what is up?
Speaker 7: Well? What is up? As you're trying to ussert my
Speaker 7: position in the universe. I am the high Priest of
Speaker 7: the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and you have
Speaker 7: tried to usurp my place. So I'm just warning you
Speaker 7: no beer in Spaghetting Monster Heaven if you're not careful.
Speaker 2: I repair I repent. I forgot how close you were
Speaker 2: to his newly appendage.
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, all right, good, well, I do want to
Speaker 7: add something for Sophia. I don't know if and the caller,
Speaker 7: because it's an interesting book. It's called When Prophecy Fails,
Speaker 7: and it was written way back in like nineteen fifty six,
Speaker 7: but it's a documentation of how a cult got started
Speaker 7: and the prophecies that came from that cult, and what
Speaker 7: happened when the prophecies didn't come through the cult continue.
Speaker 7: It still exists today despite multiple prophecies failing time after time. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 7: it's a it's a really interesting book because it looks
Speaker 7: at the social psychology of the kinds of things that
Speaker 7: the caller was talking about. He was one hundred percent certain,
Speaker 7: wasn't he? And yet so were the people in the
Speaker 7: in the book that I'm mentioning.
Speaker 1: Right, right, and we've got and there's just so many
Speaker 1: different examples of and we see. I even remember, right
Speaker 1: around the time I was graduating from high school, there
Speaker 1: was this big billboard campaign in my area where this
Speaker 1: preacher had predicted the end of the world, like like
Speaker 1: two days before graduation or something, and so like the
Speaker 1: whole big joke going around the school was like, well,
Speaker 1: we really don't have to finish our classes because you know,
Speaker 1: we're all going to die anyway.
Speaker 2: The world's gonna end. It didn't happen, though, it didn't happen.
Speaker 7: Was that the twenty twelve Rapture Day?
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we had. We had an entire conference around It's
Speaker 7: called Rapture Day Conference, a whole conference built around that
Speaker 7: one thing. It was a lot of fun. That's awesome,
Speaker 7: in which you talk Kansas, That's where the conference was.
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of speaking of a book, you you had
Speaker 1: mentioned that that great book when Prophecy Fails. I had
Speaker 1: heard you had written something with a with a couple
Speaker 1: of other really cool authors that got picked up by
Speaker 1: like Harvard or something.
Speaker 2: What was that?
Speaker 7: Yeah, well we, yeah, my colleague David teach Out and
Speaker 7: I wrote a chapter for a book that's going to
Speaker 7: come out next month from Oxford University Press at Oxford
Speaker 7: in Oxford.
Speaker 2: That's awesome, man, that's awesome. And then did I.
Speaker 1: Did I hear right that that Harvard caught wind of
Speaker 1: it and you're doing a talk there.
Speaker 7: So yeah, we're there's a symposium on religious Trauma that
Speaker 7: I'll be speaking I'm invited to speak at and that'll
Speaker 7: happen a week from Friday, this Friday, almost two weeks
Speaker 7: from now. That's so it's a free conference. If you're
Speaker 7: in the Boston area, you can you can come and
Speaker 7: listen to the talk. But I'll be talking on religious
Speaker 7: trauma and your brain.
Speaker 2: That is amazing.
Speaker 7: And here's a cold thing. It's at Harvard Divinity School.
Speaker 1: No way, no freaking way, Harmon Trinity School is going
Speaker 1: to let you talk on religious trauma.
Speaker 7: Oh my yes, right, and David's David's doing a second talk,
Speaker 7: so between the two of us, we'll have two talks there.
Speaker 2: That is freaking awesome.
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to get to meet David last
Speaker 1: year and absolutely wonderful dude. And I am so I'm
Speaker 1: so bummed I don't live. This is maybe the one
Speaker 1: time I can say this.
Speaker 9: I am.
Speaker 1: I am super bummed that I don't live a little
Speaker 1: bit over the Mason Dixon line. So I'm a Southern
Speaker 1: boy for sure. But you know, I want people to
Speaker 1: hear about this really, really awesome thing that you have
Speaker 1: just recently created, which for anybody who's not aware of
Speaker 1: doctor Daryl Ray's insane history in this space. He is
Speaker 1: the founder of both Recovering from Religion and the Secular
Speaker 1: Therapy Project, two massively influential organizations in the secular space
Speaker 1: have have been able to help so many people. I
Speaker 1: think you said, like, what, thirty thousand clients.
Speaker 7: Well, thirty eight thousand clients in the Secret Therapy Project house. Yeah,
Speaker 7: one thoy ninety seven therapists in the secretar Therapy Project
Speaker 7: in eleven different countries, and my god, yeah, it's gotten huge.
Speaker 7: It's thirteen years old.
Speaker 10: Now.
Speaker 1: That is amazing. Man, that is really really freaking cool.
Speaker 1: And everybody that has been watching this show for a
Speaker 1: while knows how much we love both of those places
Speaker 1: and how often we shout them out. But for some reason, Daryl,
Speaker 1: you you apparently didn't have enough to do. It must
Speaker 1: be the case you were just sitting on your hands
Speaker 1: board one day and you got this really cool idea
Speaker 1: that the first class, the first cohort, has actually just
Speaker 1: finished and I was actually lucky enough to be a
Speaker 1: part of it. Would you mind just telling everybody a
Speaker 1: little bit about the Secure Leadership Institute?
Speaker 7: Sure? Sure, So I've been watching. My career was in leadership,
Speaker 7: so I was training the leaders for almost forty years
Speaker 7: in my career. But I get into the secular world
Speaker 7: in the late two thousands and I see, you know,
Speaker 7: poor leadership everywhere. And I'm not saying bad people. It's
Speaker 7: not bad people. It's just people who don't know how
Speaker 7: to lead, and so it causes lots of problems, lots
Speaker 7: of conflicts, that sort of stuff. So I got the
Speaker 7: idea a decade ago to bring my skills in leadership
Speaker 7: development into the secular world. But it's just now coming
Speaker 7: to fruition because I've had too much to do with
Speaker 7: recover from religit and secular Therapy project. But if you
Speaker 7: google google church leadership, you will find hundreds of training
Speaker 7: courses to train churches and church leaders. If you find
Speaker 7: Google secular leadership, you will find nothing. And that inspired
Speaker 7: me to start this Institute for Secular Leadership. I've been
Speaker 7: working on this for two years and we just launched
Speaker 7: it in February. And you were fortunate enough to be
Speaker 7: in the very first class. You are among those first
Speaker 7: of the acolytes, right, that's right.
Speaker 2: We threw our hats in everything.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you really did. It was a It was a
Speaker 7: good We had a great time but it's a it's
Speaker 7: a it's a course designed to teach people how to
Speaker 7: lead in the secular world, because you can't. You don't
Speaker 7: lead seculars like you lead people in church. Yeah, and
Speaker 7: I see too many leaders using church techniques, you know,
Speaker 7: guilt and shame and you know, doing not being able
Speaker 7: to deal with conflict appropriately. There's there's a lot of
Speaker 7: things that secular leaders need to learn how to do
Speaker 7: that church leaders don't do, or they do it very poorly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me let me let me kind of pick
Speaker 1: your brain on that a little bit. You know, why
Speaker 1: is this so important? I mean I feel like I
Speaker 1: don't know, man. I feel like we've got American atheists.
Speaker 1: I mean they're a big organization and they're goods. You know,
Speaker 1: We've got you know, Sunday's assemblies, you know, going around. Still,
Speaker 1: we've got this recovering from religion, I mean, humanists associate.
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I feel like we've got why
Speaker 1: why do we need to train secular leaders?
Speaker 7: Well, I look at leadership kind of like driving a car.
Speaker 7: When you first learn how to drive a car, you
Speaker 7: are really carefully driving. You don't know where to put
Speaker 7: your foot on the brake or on the accelerator. You're
Speaker 7: concentrating totally and without any training, and you get into
Speaker 7: the car, that's the way you're going to drive the car.
Speaker 7: You're probably gonna wreck the car too, if you're not careful. Well,
Speaker 7: that's kind of the way we are with leaders right now.
Speaker 7: We have not trained a single leader. Nobody gets trained.
Speaker 7: Churches are training people all the time. The Baptists have
Speaker 7: got a huge training program, the Mormon's got a huge
Speaker 7: training program. Well, if they think it's important to train
Speaker 7: people in churches, it's got to be just as important
Speaker 7: to train people to be secular leaders. And as a
Speaker 7: result of not having training, you see groups having conflict,
Speaker 7: not knowing how to deal with conflicts, splitting over conflict,
Speaker 7: groups starting and two years later dying. You see founder
Speaker 7: leaders who can't delegate, who won't train other people to
Speaker 7: do what they want, who hold on to power without
Speaker 7: with our sharing power. There's just a lot of mistakes
Speaker 7: I'm seeing being made by good people that are very
Speaker 7: smart people, but they haven't been trained. You wouldn't put
Speaker 7: your twelve year old kid in a car and say,
Speaker 7: I hope you make it alive. You'll give me some groceries.
Speaker 7: And that's kind of what we're doing with whoever steps
Speaker 7: up to lead the local humanist group, the local atheist groups,
Speaker 7: that's who gets it. But what qualifications do they have,
Speaker 7: what training do they have, and we are ready to
Speaker 7: do that. We started this course. We're now in our
Speaker 7: third cohort, as you know, and almost it's halfway sold out.
Speaker 7: Our second intermediate course is sold out. Now we can't
Speaker 7: accept any more people. So we're glad to see people
Speaker 7: are starting to get the word and sign up for it.
Speaker 2: That's awesome, that's awesome.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you guys can definitely find that out there
Speaker 1: all over some places.
Speaker 2: I saw it on Facebook the other day.
Speaker 1: Very very easy to get a part of it and
Speaker 1: to join in. There are some really really important things
Speaker 1: that that you know, I have learned already, some things
Speaker 1: that I saw myself doing incorrectly. And again it's it's
Speaker 1: not it's it's not from anything other than just a
Speaker 1: lack of knowledge on it. We, like you said, we
Speaker 1: don't have these pipelines. We we have not had these
Speaker 1: kind of these courses or these pathways for our people
Speaker 1: at all, you know, And if you're lucky enough to
Speaker 1: be in an area that has a group already. More
Speaker 1: often than not, it's kind of like, hey, who's in
Speaker 1: charge here?
Speaker 2: And when you.
Speaker 1: Find out that person, they tend to be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: nobody else wanted to do it, you know.
Speaker 2: So and then and we wonder why our our causes stagnate.
Speaker 1: We wonder why, we wonder why it's so difficult for
Speaker 1: us to get anything, you know, to happen in this space.
Speaker 1: But I I am thrilled by this man. I think
Speaker 1: this is really awesome them. And if you could, if
Speaker 1: you could give somebody out there, you know, just just
Speaker 1: one one little nugget of something, they might get some
Speaker 1: some little bit of a little bit of the secret sauce,
Speaker 1: behind the scenes thing to wet their appetite so that
Speaker 1: they'll they'll.
Speaker 2: Sign up for this.
Speaker 1: What what would you say to them? What's something super
Speaker 1: important for secular leaders?
Speaker 7: Well, I think it's not just secular leaders, but secular
Speaker 7: board members, because there's far more people on secular boards
Speaker 7: than there are leaders, so to speak. So I think
Speaker 7: the most we have a simple thing we do in
Speaker 7: one of the courses is five key things board members
Speaker 7: should know and do, and that would be And I
Speaker 7: don't have time to go through them right now, of course.
Speaker 7: But the number one thing is you are responsible morally
Speaker 7: and fiscally and financially for the way the organization operates,
Speaker 7: and so you should be using best practices. So the
Speaker 7: bottom line is, in our leadership training, we're teaching best practices,
Speaker 7: and group that follow best practices tend to grow because
Speaker 7: the people that belong to it see how you function
Speaker 7: and appreciate the way you're using donor money or the
Speaker 7: time of the volunteers. So it's an important component to
Speaker 7: develop the trust between board members, and trust between leaders
Speaker 7: and board members is absolutely critical if you want to grow.
Speaker 7: And what I see is so many groups been around
Speaker 7: for ten or twenty years and they haven't grown at all.
Speaker 7: They've still got thirty forty people on the register and
Speaker 7: only ten people show up to the meetings. Well, I
Speaker 7: think you could change that if you learn how to lead.
Speaker 7: And it's not because you don't it's not because you're
Speaker 7: not good people, not because you're not intelligent, because you
Speaker 7: haven't been trained in best practices. Yeah, answer the question
Speaker 7: a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 1: I think you've had a great job answering that question,
Speaker 1: and there are tons of awesome ways that you can
Speaker 1: help out, folks. It is of one C three, so
Speaker 1: all donations are tax deductible, just like when you give
Speaker 1: money here to the wonderful folks at the Atheist Community
Speaker 1: of Boston, which I see. We have already a dollar
Speaker 1: ninety nine super chat coming in from Jonathan France. I
Speaker 1: wonder if we can get that up on here real quick.
Speaker 1: It says cubes upon you, cubes upon your house and
Speaker 1: your cow, and yes, cubes upon every single one of
Speaker 1: you out there as well. That's a little that's a
Speaker 1: little a bit we have going here and you instead
Speaker 1: of pieces. But anyway, I have the perfect call I
Speaker 1: think to talk a little bit more about this. We
Speaker 1: have an atheist Sean he him pronouns out in Kansas,
Speaker 1: wants to talk to us today about something about humanism
Speaker 1: or I'm not sure here.
Speaker 2: Well we'll get him to explain.
Speaker 1: But hey, Sean, you are on the Atheist experience with
Speaker 1: Secularity and doctor Daryl Ray.
Speaker 2: What is up?
Speaker 4: Wow, nice to be with you guys. Thanks so much.
Speaker 7: Hey, how are you good to have you Sean?
Speaker 4: It's so good to see you both. And I was
Speaker 4: enjoying that you met previous caller and listening to the
Speaker 4: fulfillmentive prophecy, and I'm like, man, that brings, you know,
Speaker 4: back to when I was a theist before I became
Speaker 4: an atheist. But yeah, so now I am a humanist
Speaker 4: and I'm also a graduate with secular rarity in doctor
Speaker 4: Ray's course in the Institute for Secular Leadership. And I've
Speaker 4: really learned a lot thanks to everybody there.
Speaker 2: Nice awesome man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was what was one of the things that
Speaker 1: you got out of it that you you really valued?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 2: Wow, just one thing?
Speaker 4: Really, there was so much, you know, I have to
Speaker 4: the fact that being with ten other individuals who are
Speaker 4: learning and who bring their own uh you know, experience
Speaker 4: with them, but listening to the leaders of the course
Speaker 4: and helping to you know, reframe some things to help
Speaker 4: us consider things we hadn't considered. And me never having
Speaker 4: been a leader or trained as a leader, this was
Speaker 4: critical for me. I felt like I had to had
Speaker 4: to get into this course. And I'll tell you, I've
Speaker 4: learned so much. I'm glad to see some things I've
Speaker 4: been doing well, but I've only learned to do how
Speaker 4: to do them better. And you know, I love that.
Speaker 4: So I don't know, like how to be an idea generator.
Speaker 4: That's really cool. I learned a lot from that that thread.
Speaker 4: Horizontal accountability has nothing to do with being in bed. So,
Speaker 4: you know, one of the more recent ones we heard
Speaker 4: before graduating was whose chicken is this?
Speaker 7: Or yeah? Or yeah?
Speaker 4: Or who's monkey?
Speaker 7: Rather who's monkey?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 11: Right?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah right.
Speaker 4: I don't know why I said chicken.
Speaker 8: Maybe was that a Freudian slip?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 7: You're making ship up?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, right now? Yeah now, I'm just making ship up.
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4: But yeah, you know, getting buy in for our vision.
Speaker 4: And that's one thing that I realized I had not
Speaker 4: really been as focused on as I should be, because
Speaker 4: the whole reason I, you know, started my organization was
Speaker 4: to have well the vision that are that I had
Speaker 4: and get it out there and start working on that.
Speaker 4: So anyway, uh, you know, and and this this course
Speaker 4: is really helping me to zone in on that our mission,
Speaker 4: making sure that our leaders are also invested in that
Speaker 4: idea and wanting to forward. So yeah, very exciting to
Speaker 4: be able to promote this course for people who are
Speaker 4: in the secular community who want to lead. I highly
Speaker 4: recommend this course.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely I think it was. It was a lot
Speaker 1: of fun. We we got to we got to bounce
Speaker 1: ideas off of each other a bunch. And you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things I think is so cool is
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't even know. Yeah I probably could
Speaker 1: have guessed, right, but I didn't even know there was
Speaker 1: a humanist group out in Topeka, Kansas, you know, And
Speaker 1: just just taking this course has allowed me to get
Speaker 1: that connection at least, you know, And like, I think
Speaker 1: that is one thing again that we've been missing for
Speaker 1: so long in this space, is that cross pollination and
Speaker 1: that interconnectedness of the communities. We see this on the
Speaker 1: right with the Christian Nationalists, we we we see this
Speaker 1: in so many of these other groups, and unfortunately we
Speaker 1: we just don't have a counter example yet, you know.
Speaker 2: So I'm thrilled that we have this.
Speaker 12: Oh yeah, well one of the that's one of the
Speaker 12: key things that we're all trying to do is to
Speaker 12: create a network of leaders so that for that very
Speaker 12: very thing you're talking about, and.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know our goal that.
Speaker 8: I'm sorry I should not have interrupted.
Speaker 2: My apologies, No, go ahead, Sean, Oh, I was just.
Speaker 4: Gonna say speaking to that about you know, having a network.
Speaker 4: I recently had a challenge that came up about childcare
Speaker 4: and one of our director board of directors had mentioned
Speaker 4: a series of concerns about you know that, especially how
Speaker 4: churches have been known to do it, you know, with
Speaker 4: with free childcare, and it's always the women taking care
Speaker 4: of the children, and so kind of reinforces the patriarchy
Speaker 4: in that sense, you know, and unpaid labor among other
Speaker 4: issues gender, you know, gendo, stereo typing, and that kind
Speaker 4: of reinforcement. So I presented the concern to the group,
Speaker 4: the cohort and got some really fabulous responses, and I'm like,
Speaker 4: this is so wonderful that we actually have a network
Speaker 4: and it's only going to grow, and so we'll be
Speaker 4: able to get some excellent feedback from folks who are
Speaker 4: experiencing something similar, might be able to you know, lend
Speaker 4: some ideas to help the challenges that we're faced with.
Speaker 4: And you know, oh yeah, by the way, that was
Speaker 4: in a leadership challenges thread that was specifically set up
Speaker 4: for that. And so I'm like, yeah, right, oh.
Speaker 2: This is really cool, good nice. Yeah, what were what
Speaker 2: were you what were you thinking, Darryl?
Speaker 7: You had well, I was going to say our goal
Speaker 7: is to train one thousand leaders over the next ten years. Wow,
Speaker 7: one thousand leaders the next ten year. And think if
Speaker 7: we had a thousand leaders all gone through the same training,
Speaker 7: with the same approach and methodology and language, they can
Speaker 7: start talking to each other and we can grow in
Speaker 7: new ways we've never done before. We can horizontally grow
Speaker 7: and connecting and developing each other. And that's that's what
Speaker 7: Sean's talking about. Yeah, and they can go to Secular
Speaker 7: Leadership dot Org is the website you can go to
Speaker 7: to see more about the course.
Speaker 1: Make it easy for him. That's the way to do it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I love it. Well, Sean, do you do you have
Speaker 1: any do you have any closing thoughts for us or
Speaker 1: reflections on the on the course.
Speaker 4: You know, I just want to say that I think
Speaker 4: the the breadth of what we learned just in the
Speaker 4: introductory course alone before even going into the intermediate course
Speaker 4: was I mean, eye opening and directly helpful every every
Speaker 4: after every class, you know, we had some homework to
Speaker 4: do and application of that in our own group, and
Speaker 4: we can also you know, you know, bounce some feedback.
Speaker 4: So knowing that you know, I.
Speaker 13: Don't have to do this alone, anymore and.
Speaker 4: Think on my own too, you know, hit or miss,
Speaker 4: and having you know, people who've gone before, you know,
Speaker 4: like actual sen phase. That's what Sunsey means, is like
Speaker 4: the one who's gone before, right, So you know, it's
Speaker 4: great to be able to pick, you know, from from people.
Speaker 14: Who who've done this and are are.
Speaker 4: You know, will have understood the best practices to take
Speaker 4: those and and make this happen. I'm just so excited
Speaker 4: to know that we're going to have secular leaders that
Speaker 4: are trained and and like Daryl said, you know, speaking
Speaker 4: the language, you know, and being able to move that
Speaker 4: forward and work together and network and grow together. So
Speaker 4: I think it's amazing and thank you for the opportunity
Speaker 4: for me to be able to come on here today
Speaker 4: to share that with you all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much, Sean.
Speaker 7: We really apt sure calling Sean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, we are absolutely appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna drop you like a hot tato
Speaker 1: real quick, because there's no uh, there's no real like
Speaker 1: you know, easy or dignified way to do it.
Speaker 7: Man.
Speaker 1: But thank you so much for calling us today. And
Speaker 1: I can't wait until we're in another class together again.
Speaker 10: Man.
Speaker 8: So likewise, coming right up soon. All right, see.
Speaker 1: Y'all heave rather ah man, I I love it. It
Speaker 1: is very important that we start thinking beyond the systems
Speaker 1: and the methods that we've used in the past.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest reasons why we haven't
Speaker 1: seen I mean, when I think about American atheists and
Speaker 1: let's say the American humanists, they've been around for almost
Speaker 1: one hundred years, apiece. I mean, they've been around for
Speaker 1: really really long time. And I ask myself, why haven't
Speaker 1: we had more progress? Why haven't we had even more
Speaker 1: progress than what we have had?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Why why do we see backslides and all of this stuff?
Speaker 1: And I think one of the biggest reasons is we
Speaker 1: just don't have those things training the next generation of leaders.
Speaker 2: We just don't have.
Speaker 1: Those things that build up the community in the same
Speaker 1: way that the religious do.
Speaker 15: You know.
Speaker 2: I was recently watching the Shiny Happy People documentary, you know,
Speaker 2: and like, I mean.
Speaker 1: When you see the the conferences that they put on
Speaker 1: and you see what they're doing, and it's all about
Speaker 1: this leadership building, how do you how do you take
Speaker 1: this back into your town and stuff? I mean, this
Speaker 1: is what they've been doing for decades.
Speaker 7: At this point, oh at least.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it just we we have to we
Speaker 2: have to start.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 2: The best time to start was ten years ago. The
Speaker 2: next best time is right now, you know. So well, uh,
Speaker 2: we'll get onto that.
Speaker 1: But before we do that, there is actually something very
Speaker 1: cool that my buddy and fellow host here, Jamie the Blindlimey,
Speaker 1: has to say, Jamie.
Speaker 2: What is that thing about?
Speaker 1: This?
Speaker 2: Coming up in May?
Speaker 9: Jamie the Blind lime here, and I've got some interesting
Speaker 9: news for you. On Saturday, May sixteenth, at six pm,
Speaker 9: we'll be hosting our twenty four hour We Are Here
Speaker 9: live stream and fundraiser to highlight secular voices around the world.
Speaker 9: We've invited dozens of your favorite content creators like genetically
Speaker 9: Modified Skeptic, the Antibot, Justin d Z, and more to
Speaker 9: let the world know that we are here and we're
Speaker 9: not going anywhere. If you're here in Austin, come join
Speaker 9: us at Free Thought Library at fifteen oh seven West
Speaker 9: Cain Iglaine. Well, we'll be kicking things off in style,
Speaker 9: and if you're online, do join us on the Atheist
Speaker 9: Experience channel to check out the stream and join in
Speaker 9: the fun. So join us from wherever you are in
Speaker 9: the world, and together we can dedicate ourselves to secular
Speaker 9: humanist values wherever we are.
Speaker 2: That is awesome.
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you so much Jamie for the info on
Speaker 1: the upcoming twenty four hour live stream and fundraiser for
Speaker 1: the ACA May sixteenth, starting at six pm Central time.
Speaker 1: You guys don't want to miss it. It was super
Speaker 1: duper fun last year. I got to participate. I was
Speaker 1: very excited. They gave me one of the like primo
Speaker 1: Primo slots, the like one thirty to like like two
Speaker 1: fifteen in the in the morning time Central It was.
Speaker 1: It was awesome. I was so thrilled to do it.
Speaker 1: I got to hang out with a couple of different people.
Speaker 1: I got to hang out with Holy kool Aid and
Speaker 1: Godless Engineer.
Speaker 2: We had we had a good time.
Speaker 1: So definitely, folks, make sure that you put that on
Speaker 1: your calendars and you come hang out with us. We
Speaker 1: have some other we have some other really good calls here, Darryl.
Speaker 1: I think we should go out to Colorado and talk
Speaker 1: with RJ, a theist him pronouns RJ wants to talk
Speaker 1: about the four winds in the Bible, So I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know how much you know about this, Daryl,
Speaker 1: but we.
Speaker 2: Are going to leave it.
Speaker 7: Go for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. Let's give it a shot. Well, hey,
Speaker 1: r J, you are on the atheist experience.
Speaker 2: What is up?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Hey?
Speaker 7: So yeah?
Speaker 14: Well, happy Easter. I know you guys probably don't celebrate it, but.
Speaker 7: Do you happy?
Speaker 11: Yeah?
Speaker 14: But so I found it kind of interesting. I don't
Speaker 14: think this will really change your guys's opinion or anything,
Speaker 14: but I was looking up the four winds, and I
Speaker 14: know a lot of atheists think that that means that
Speaker 14: Christians and Jews thought the Earth was flat. But if
Speaker 14: you do some research on it, there is six major
Speaker 14: wind systems that we have. I'm guessing you're probably aware
Speaker 14: of them. The polar East release, the trade wind and
Speaker 14: then the westerlies. But if you look at it closer,
Speaker 14: the winds that are blowing on land where humans inhabit,
Speaker 14: it's it's just the four winds. So it's the easterly
Speaker 14: or I'm sorry, the westerlies and the trade winds, and
Speaker 14: like even when you go to Norway or Greenland, they
Speaker 14: usually still follows the pattern of the westerlies above the
Speaker 14: thirty degree north line.
Speaker 1: So is is this something that convinced you r J.
Speaker 14: No, it was part of the convintion, not entirely, but
Speaker 14: it definitely is an explanation sure to what that means?
Speaker 1: And like sure, and and you know, I understand the
Speaker 1: concept of accumulative case. You know, the reason that I
Speaker 1: accept that my buddy, you know, got a rabbits as
Speaker 1: a as a.
Speaker 2: Birthday present, you know, and now as a pet rabbit.
Speaker 1: That he wasn't particularly thrilled about, but he still takes
Speaker 1: care of it very well and he loves it. But
Speaker 1: the reason I believe that is because of all of
Speaker 1: these other different pieces of evidence. You know, I know
Speaker 1: that bunnies exist. You know, I know he had a
Speaker 1: birthday recently. You know, I've actually seen the fucking rabbit.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff, right, But like if we
Speaker 1: were to somehow figure out a way, I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that we can, but like if the three of us
Speaker 1: here right now could like disprove that either that hey,
Speaker 1: actually no, there's like twelve wins on the earth, like
Speaker 1: the physical geography and all that, or we could somehow
Speaker 1: show that the individual who wrote that portion of the
Speaker 1: Bible was actually talking about something totally different. Would it
Speaker 1: really move the needle at all in terms of your
Speaker 1: belief in God.
Speaker 14: On this particular subject. No, yeah, yeah, but I mean,
Speaker 14: I mean, those are the winds. I mean, obviously there's
Speaker 14: gonna be other like wind effects that aren't gonna follow
Speaker 14: over exactly.
Speaker 1: But r J, if if we spend ten minutes talking
Speaker 1: about these winds right at the end of it, no
Speaker 1: matter how much progress you and I make, you're gonna
Speaker 1: still believe. And and so I'd just rather go to
Speaker 1: something that's more convincing to you. If if you came
Speaker 1: across that and we're even like, eh, that's.
Speaker 2: Not that big of a deal. But it's kind of
Speaker 2: a little bit of extra sprinkles on my ice cream,
Speaker 2: you know that.
Speaker 1: That's okay, I get that, But I want to I
Speaker 1: want to go right to the right to the heart
Speaker 1: of it. Man, what's the what's the real reason that
Speaker 1: that you believe? You know, God's real or Jesus rose
Speaker 1: from the dead today a long time ago, or something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 14: I would say I have a lot of multiple reasons,
Speaker 14: not just one in particular.
Speaker 1: For sure, give me a really really good one. Give
Speaker 1: me give me the one that you really think is
Speaker 1: super Sorry.
Speaker 2: Solid.
Speaker 14: As far as like Christianity goes or the proof that
Speaker 14: there is a God.
Speaker 2: Your choice.
Speaker 14: I've talked to I've talked to uh Darryl Ray before
Speaker 14: on this same show. I don't he probably doesn't rememory.
Speaker 14: But anyways, my biggest one was demographics, human demographics. That
Speaker 14: was the biggest one. Well, because if evolution wasn't real,
Speaker 14: or if evolution was real, we would have trillions and
Speaker 14: trillions of people living on the planet by now. There's
Speaker 14: if you will go back five hundred thousand years, I mean,
Speaker 14: we would have reproduced way more times than we already have.
Speaker 14: I realized, what about Yeah, there, correct, that's the excuse.
Speaker 14: But diseases don't wipe out populations were thousands and thousands
Speaker 14: of years, and neither does natural disasters, especially if you're
Speaker 14: spread out.
Speaker 1: But if over look, because I'm not I don't want
Speaker 1: to go like too far down the evolution route. I
Speaker 1: just want to be charitable on both sides here, Like
Speaker 1: if we both agree, just for the sake of the
Speaker 1: argument that like climate and the Earth changes over like
Speaker 1: thousands of years of time, you don't think it's possible
Speaker 1: that say, like the most northern portion of Africa in
Speaker 1: a thousand to two thousand years could go from a lush,
Speaker 1: green environment that could support a lot of life to
Speaker 1: like a dry, arid, freezing cold desert that couldn't support anything.
Speaker 2: You don't think that's possible, like at all.
Speaker 14: I do think it's possible. But if humans are spread
Speaker 14: out across various locations, I don't think that would have
Speaker 14: an effect on it. Just like in large popular portions
Speaker 14: of animal populations get wiped out, there's still a bunch
Speaker 14: of them that survives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but animals go extinct, right, animals and plants go extinct.
Speaker 14: That's true, But humans are a lot smarter than the
Speaker 14: animal where a lot we can adapt and survive a
Speaker 14: lot better than most animals can.
Speaker 1: Give me, give me, give me a second here, Arji,
Speaker 1: I've been kind of dominating. I want to get I
Speaker 1: want to get doctor Ray and on this as well,
Speaker 1: what do you what.
Speaker 2: Do you think on this? Daryl? Is there something to it?
Speaker 7: I'm more curious about what R. Jay's underlying emotional motivation
Speaker 7: is for solving this problem. What what motivates you to
Speaker 7: think in the about this problem?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 14: What what problem are you talking about? How humans would
Speaker 14: I'm not sure what you're asking, sorry.
Speaker 7: Well, what what motivates you to call in? What? What's
Speaker 7: the concern the underlying concern that makes you concerned about this.
Speaker 14: About you guys being atheists?
Speaker 7: Is that?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 7: Why am I you called us to talk about four
Speaker 7: winds and things like that? What is the underlying concern
Speaker 7: that you've got that the wind's going to build the
Speaker 7: wrong direction? You know, I'm being facetious there, but what
Speaker 7: what caused you to adding?
Speaker 14: I would say that's just evidence, I guess in a
Speaker 14: way like he was saying earlier, that is sprinkles on
Speaker 14: top of the evidence that has already been presented that
Speaker 14: the Bible is true and that there's a lot of
Speaker 14: stuff in there that people wouldn't know that they did
Speaker 14: know somehow, Like the four winds would be something that
Speaker 14: would be really difficult, especially when you consider that the
Speaker 14: most so the wind isn't that.
Speaker 7: Well, okay, let me ask this question. You called in
Speaker 7: to talk about this one. Why didn't you call it
Speaker 7: talk about something in the Baba Guida or in the Quran?
Speaker 7: Is it is there a reason why that that those
Speaker 7: holy books that obviously they people think God wrote.
Speaker 14: Yeah, but they have errors in them, like obvious errors
Speaker 14: and contradictions that I don't think makes sense.
Speaker 7: Okay, So you studied the Koran and you know how
Speaker 7: many errors it has.
Speaker 14: I haven't really, I haven't read the entire theme, but
Speaker 14: I know there's one hundred and fourteen surahs, like I
Speaker 14: know the basic thing. Okay, Yeah, and it's got contradictions
Speaker 14: in it that are major, like I was. Okay, the
Speaker 14: arguments again there against the Kuran are greater than the
Speaker 14: arguments against the Bible.
Speaker 7: Greater than okay, but so the Bible has contradictions too, correct.
Speaker 14: Well, the arguments I don't personally believe that I've seen
Speaker 14: the arguments the re revs. I guess the people who
Speaker 14: refute the arguments, I think their arguments are stronger than
Speaker 14: the arguments are made against it. When I hear people
Speaker 14: trying to defend the Koran against.
Speaker 7: So if I was sitting here in you you were
Speaker 7: a Christian and we had a Muslim of equal knowledge
Speaker 7: to you, and you guys started debating, how would you
Speaker 7: go out winning that debate?
Speaker 14: Well, okay, well, the mo the Quran has failed prophecies.
Speaker 14: So the biggest argument against Islam, in my opinion versus
Speaker 14: Christianity is Christianity. Christianity had prophecies that were fulfilled versus
Speaker 14: the Koran.
Speaker 7: Oh wait, wait, hold on. I've got a lot of
Speaker 7: Muzslim friends, the next Muslim friends, and they're pretty darn
Speaker 7: sure all the prophecies in the Koran came true. I'm
Speaker 7: positive that they will. They will go, they will die
Speaker 7: on that on that hill, so to speak. So I'm
Speaker 7: just trying to figure out which prophecy should I put
Speaker 7: the most weight on, yours or theirs?
Speaker 14: I would say, I would say on Christianity's prophecies, had.
Speaker 7: You been born in Saudi Arabia, would you be saying
Speaker 7: the same thing? If what if you had been born
Speaker 7: in Saudi Arabia raised in Islam, would you be saying
Speaker 7: the same thing you are right now?
Speaker 14: I think I would yes. Just like if I had
Speaker 14: a math problem and I lived in Saudi Arabia, and
Speaker 14: I looked at a math problem and I was able
Speaker 14: to solve it, but everyone in Saudi Arabia said that
Speaker 14: that my solution was wrong, but the people in the
Speaker 14: US said the solution was right. I would say, well,
Speaker 14: i'm i'm I agree with the people in the US.
Speaker 14: Their solution is correct. The people in Saudi.
Speaker 7: Arabiakay, this isn't This isn't math problems. The Musslim math works.
Speaker 7: In fact, we use Arabic numerals in case you hadn't
Speaker 7: learned math. It's Arabic numerals, right. So the Arabs gave
Speaker 7: us from India. It came from ultimately, it started in India,
Speaker 7: but we call them Arabic numerals because they came to
Speaker 7: us through the Arab world. But that's not the issue.
Speaker 7: The issue is, how do I tell you were raised
Speaker 7: in Saudi Arabia the only religion you ever heard of
Speaker 7: or knew was Islam. Would you still be making the
Speaker 7: same claims that you are right now?
Speaker 14: If I had access to the Bible and I lived
Speaker 14: in Saudi Arabia, and I looked at both the Bible
Speaker 14: and the Koran, and I compared them to the Old
Speaker 14: Testament prophecies, and the Koran doesn't really the Koran says
Speaker 14: the Old Testament, doesn't. I mean, they kind of contradict
Speaker 14: and say it's not the correct Old Testament. But if
Speaker 14: I was looking at both of them side by side,
Speaker 14: and I had access to the Bible, I would think you,
Speaker 14: I would believe the Bible.
Speaker 7: Okay, Now let's go back to Utah. If you had
Speaker 7: been raised in Utah as a Mormon and book a
Speaker 7: Mormon was your holy book, which prophecy Joseph Smith's prophecies
Speaker 7: or you know, or your local Baptist churches minister's prophecies.
Speaker 7: Who should I believe?
Speaker 14: I would I'm not a Baptist, but well, I believe
Speaker 14: I'm a Protestant, I guess, but I believe in I
Speaker 14: don't really want to label myself as a Baptist, but
Speaker 14: I would say I guess in a way I am
Speaker 14: kind of related Baptists because I concern myself evangelical and
Speaker 14: they kind of rose out of the Baptist movement. I
Speaker 14: guess in a way I kind of am. But yeah,
Speaker 14: I would still say that the Baptist is more correct
Speaker 14: than the the Mormon movement is based on the logical
Speaker 14: prophecies I'm looking at.
Speaker 7: I mean, well, are You've given us no logic? But
Speaker 7: that's okay. I can't understand how Mormonism doesn't trump Trump whatever.
Speaker 16: You can have.
Speaker 1: The fulfilled prophecies that are claimed by the early followers
Speaker 1: of Joseph Smith sound way more miraculous to me than
Speaker 1: than a lot of the a lot of the Bible
Speaker 1: and stuff. But there you brought up something a second ago, RJ.
Speaker 1: I want to I want to just get some clarification
Speaker 1: on you said, when if I were to compare the
Speaker 1: New Testament to to you know, the Old Testament, if
Speaker 1: I were to compare the Koran to the Old Testament,
Speaker 1: why are you doing that? Why are you bringing these
Speaker 1: books to compare them to supposed prophecies written in the
Speaker 1: Old Testament.
Speaker 2: What is it about the Old Testament to use as a.
Speaker 14: Guide there, Yeah, because that's the Old Testament prove the
Speaker 14: New Testament. The New Testament proves that the Old Testament possably.
Speaker 2: I understand that circle.
Speaker 1: But what I'm asking about, RJ, is if you've got
Speaker 1: books that are very very old, right, and you've got
Speaker 1: like seven of them in front of you. You know,
Speaker 1: doctor Ray mentioned the Bagavad Gita, Like, if you've got that,
Speaker 1: and you've got the Old Testament as it's compiled today,
Speaker 1: but wouldn't have been compiled in that fashion from two
Speaker 1: thousand years ago? Like why would you pick out the
Speaker 1: Old Testament as being the like foundation that we've got
Speaker 1: to go find all the things that make it work.
Speaker 2: Does that Does that make sense why I'm asking that?
Speaker 14: Uh, yeah, I think I get what you're at trying
Speaker 14: to get trying to say, yeah, I well, because because
Speaker 14: of Israel was the one of the most powerful nations
Speaker 14: and it's in the Middle East.
Speaker 7: When and yeah, when was that?
Speaker 2: Like what time period would.
Speaker 14: You during the time of King Solomon?
Speaker 1: And my understanding and I sure could be wrong on this,
Speaker 1: and both of us could go do some some research
Speaker 1: with like a seriologist and stuff, but my understanding is
Speaker 1: that the concept of a pre modern Israel, like an
Speaker 1: ancient Israel, like two thousand plus odd years ago Israel
Speaker 1: absolutely in no way, shape or form existed in all
Speaker 1: of the archaeological evidence points otherwise.
Speaker 2: That is my understanding.
Speaker 1: RJ Okay, Yeah, but but I mean if that's the case, right,
Speaker 1: then that would be a problem for then going back
Speaker 1: to what you just said about using the Old Testament
Speaker 1: as the basis, right, because unless there's another reason why
Speaker 1: you would do that, unless there's another reason why you
Speaker 1: would pick.
Speaker 14: That collection, Well, it prophesies that there there's going to
Speaker 14: be a continuation of the Old Testament. What does a
Speaker 14: gold is the Old Israelite?
Speaker 2: Hang on, hang on, just a second. I'm sorry, I
Speaker 2: should have I should have done this earlier on RJ.
Speaker 1: But can you can you give me your best definition
Speaker 1: for what you mean when you say prophecy, Like if
Speaker 1: I say, if I say I'm going to call my
Speaker 1: mother at seven pm this two day day, is.
Speaker 2: That a prophecy in your eyes?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 2: Awesome?
Speaker 1: So like, so give me your best understanding when when
Speaker 1: you're talking about these prophecies in the Bible, what what
Speaker 1: do you mean? Is it a dream somebody had? Is
Speaker 1: it somebody commanding something to do something?
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 14: Actually both of those are examples actually in the Bible of.
Speaker 1: A dream and a command in your eyes counts as prophecy.
Speaker 14: Certain specific ones. Yes, why okay, Well, the commands that
Speaker 14: God gave to Israel. If you follow all my statues,
Speaker 14: I'm gonna bless you and I'm gonna make you into
Speaker 14: a great nation, and that happens. But if you turn
Speaker 14: away for me, then your nation's going to fall. And
Speaker 14: if you disobey all these statues.
Speaker 2: Did that happen?
Speaker 11: Yeah?
Speaker 14: Yeah, they stool eventually fell to the Babylonian.
Speaker 1: So it kind of sounds like this prophecy fails one
Speaker 1: way or the other, or is right one way or
Speaker 1: the other, Because it sounds like it says either you
Speaker 1: succeed in the prophecy is successful, or you fail and
Speaker 1: the prophecy is successful. That doesn't really cut it for
Speaker 1: me when it comes to prophecy. Let me give you
Speaker 1: an example, RJ. My understanding of prophecy tends to be
Speaker 1: something like.
Speaker 2: In the year twenty twenty seven, doctor Darryl Ray will
Speaker 2: wear a gray.
Speaker 1: Sweater at an atheist conference, and on the back of
Speaker 1: that sweater will be a sign that says kick me please.
Speaker 2: That's like a prophecy, right.
Speaker 1: If you're commanding somebody to perform actions, that doesn't sound
Speaker 1: like a prophecy to me, right.
Speaker 2: It sounds like somebody's saying, do this.
Speaker 1: Thing, especially if there's threat for punishment for not doing
Speaker 1: it right. Right.
Speaker 14: But it makes sense though, because they didn't obey God.
Speaker 14: They started going and worshiping after idols and statues, and
Speaker 14: that's why they were destroyed. And that there's even historical Uh,
Speaker 14: there's histories proving that that happened, you.
Speaker 2: Know, there's so what about the prophecy?
Speaker 1: What about the prophecy in the Qoran that one day
Speaker 1: near the end times that the children of Muhammad, or
Speaker 1: as we like to call them these days, Muslims, they
Speaker 1: will build great, great tall buildings that will reach the sky,
Speaker 1: and that will be an indication of the end times.
Speaker 1: What about that prophecy? Have you seen some of the
Speaker 1: buildings that they've gotten Dubai right now? Yeah?
Speaker 14: Well, I mean I've seen them on the news.
Speaker 2: Is that yeah? I mean mean too.
Speaker 1: I haven't been to Dubai, but I mean, is that
Speaker 1: is that not a fulfillment of that prophecy? Does that
Speaker 1: not show that the Koran is true?
Speaker 14: Like you said earlier, though, that's kind of the one
Speaker 14: where if I call, If I say I'm gonna call
Speaker 14: my mom tomorrow and then I do it, that's kind
Speaker 14: of the same thing because you can always build a
Speaker 14: building up to the sky. They're not the only ones
Speaker 14: that did that.
Speaker 1: How is it different than I think it's presented. How
Speaker 1: is it different than the things that you've presented though, RJ.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm trying to get at. It kind of
Speaker 1: sounds like in both scenarios, there was like more or
Speaker 1: less a command right that then came with some stipulations
Speaker 1: like if you do this, then these things. If you
Speaker 1: don't do this, then these things right in both scenarios,
Speaker 1: it kind of sounds like they're really really similar, and
Speaker 1: neither of them sound like what I think all of
Speaker 1: us actually agree. Sounds more like a prophecy, which is
Speaker 1: that silly thing I did about Darryl Ray having.
Speaker 2: A kidney sign on his back.
Speaker 1: In a year you know, like I mean, if that happens,
Speaker 1: if somebody watches this episode of The Atheist Experience and
Speaker 1: a year from now, seize Daryl Ray and me hugging
Speaker 1: and laughing at some event, and they walk up behind
Speaker 1: and put a sticker on the back of his sweater,
Speaker 1: there is that fulfillment of prophecy. Am I am I
Speaker 1: somehow now prophetic?
Speaker 14: No, I wouldn't say that, because you probably go and
Speaker 14: make that happen right point Yeah.
Speaker 7: And that's an interesting component RJ. Because much of the
Speaker 7: Bible was written in exactly that way. People came back
Speaker 7: and made quote made the prophecies come true. I do
Speaker 7: want to say this, I want to suggest this to you.
Speaker 7: You have a what set of rules or logic rules
Speaker 7: you apply to what you agree with, and you have
Speaker 7: a very different set of logic and rules to things
Speaker 7: you don't agree with, so you don't examine the Quran
Speaker 7: in the same way as you examine the Bible. In fact,
Speaker 7: you don't examine the Bible, and you claim you did
Speaker 7: examine the Koran or the Bad Vagita you know, or
Speaker 7: the Mormon Book of Mormon. I haven't heard your criteria
Speaker 7: for accept your opinion and your repeating of whatever some
Speaker 7: preacher told you about what the Bible says or didn't say.
Speaker 7: So I would just challenge you to think about what
Speaker 7: are your criteria for assessing truth?
Speaker 14: Okay, well, I guess I can live with that. I
Speaker 14: would just say that Christianity fulfilled the Old test Old
Speaker 14: Testament propheties. So the reason I believe the Bible over
Speaker 14: the Koran is the Bible fulfilled the Old Testament.
Speaker 2: Posty, sure, I totally think.
Speaker 1: I think I get I think I get that kind
Speaker 1: of chain, And that makes sense to me in the
Speaker 1: sense that if I were to believe that the New
Speaker 1: Testament fulfilled that there were prophecy in the Old Testament
Speaker 1: and the New Testament absolutely fulfills them, I could absolutely
Speaker 1: myself going heck, yeah, man, I believe it. It must
Speaker 1: be true. It came to fruition The thing is, though,
Speaker 1: again kind of like what Daryl was just saying. There,
Speaker 1: you know, there's more problems before we even get to
Speaker 1: the statement of oh Man, the New Testament fulfilled prophecy,
Speaker 1: and there's already problems that we haven't we haven't addressed yet,
Speaker 1: and a couple of those being well, how do we
Speaker 1: come to truth right, and the other one being well,
Speaker 1: what exactly counts as a prophecy? I want to leave
Speaker 1: it right there, r J, because I thought this was
Speaker 1: a really good discussion. I did feel like we were
Speaker 1: both we were both being charitable, We're both giving and
Speaker 1: getting and learning and all that, and I think that's awesome.
Speaker 1: And I'll just I love giving homework to people. Paulagia
Speaker 1: is this guy on YouTube who does these awesome, you know,
Speaker 1: little videos and animations and real, real interesting stuff, and
Speaker 1: he talks a lot about you know, biblical archaeology and
Speaker 1: you know, New Testament scholarship and all this.
Speaker 2: He actually has.
Speaker 1: Laid out a really really nice and succinct list of
Speaker 1: criteria that determines whether or not something is prophecy. I
Speaker 1: use that a lot as my kind of guide guiding posts.
Speaker 2: There.
Speaker 1: What I would love because I'm sure, you know, they
Speaker 1: will let me out of my tomb at least in
Speaker 1: a year's time again. And then when I am back
Speaker 1: on call in and let's talk about that, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe he got something in that list wrong, maybe there's
Speaker 1: maybe there's a flaw there, or maybe you look at
Speaker 1: that list and you go, heck, yeah, man, I agree
Speaker 1: with every single one of them, and hear all the
Speaker 1: prophecies in the Old Testament that that match up to it.
Speaker 1: So I think that could be a really a really
Speaker 1: fun thing for both of us. And I'll go back
Speaker 1: myself and and watch it in the meantime. But I
Speaker 1: am gonna drop you like a hot rock RJ. And
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, but there's just no great way to
Speaker 1: do that without it just cutting people off a little bit.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you, man, and we do have some
Speaker 1: other really cool calls we're gonna grab here in just
Speaker 1: a second.
Speaker 2: But I think you're right. I think you're right, Darryl.
Speaker 1: It's we The foundation is how do we come to
Speaker 1: the conclusion that something is or is not true? That
Speaker 1: that is critical, and if we don't have that, we
Speaker 1: can't really make much more progress.
Speaker 7: But I appreciate our Jay's honesty, and his honesty revealed
Speaker 7: some flaws. I think that he can he can go
Speaker 7: back and examine.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 7: I think we all should examine the flaws in our
Speaker 7: own logic. And if you're one hundred percent certain, then
Speaker 7: you are certainly flawed.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's my that's my version anyway, yep.
Speaker 1: I love it, man, And we have a couple of
Speaker 1: great super chats. I'm gonna read here real quick, and
Speaker 1: then we've got some awesome calls I'm gonna grab. We
Speaker 1: have one ninety nine pounds from mister fog horn sixty six.
Speaker 1: I don't see a message, and so I'm just going
Speaker 1: to say thank you so much, mister fog horn, and
Speaker 1: give you a little.
Speaker 2: Is that was that a fog horn? I was close
Speaker 2: to a fog horn?
Speaker 11: Right, yeah?
Speaker 7: Close enough? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, then.
Speaker 1: Oh no, wait no, there is a message. There is
Speaker 1: a message. I see it here, it's underneath it. So
Speaker 1: that's my fault entirely. It says love Daryl Ray, John
Speaker 1: Ireland Banger humanist and.
Speaker 7: I oh, yes, yes, yes, I just met John on
Speaker 7: my speaking tour in bad Hey John, goodness, see.
Speaker 2: You, hey man. Thanks for tuning in John. That is awesome.
Speaker 7: And I did a speaking tour of Ireland and the
Speaker 7: United Kingdom and that's where I met John just in October.
Speaker 7: It was a fun tour to do.
Speaker 2: That's awesome. That is so frecking cool. And look at that.
Speaker 1: John, you got me to make a fog horn sound
Speaker 1: on one of the live shows.
Speaker 2: That is like bonus for you. We also just got.
Speaker 1: One in four ninety nine dollars from Clash two three
Speaker 1: four seven, been a member for one year. Wants to
Speaker 1: say that Hexagons are superior and stay rock hard for Doug. Yes, yes, indeed,
Speaker 1: I think we should grab another call because we got
Speaker 1: some cool ones.
Speaker 2: I want to go to Harah.
Speaker 1: She the pronouns is an atheist calling from the US
Speaker 1: and want some advice on how to deal with religious
Speaker 1: in laws in Easter. So, Daryl, I think you have
Speaker 1: a little bit of experience with this type of stuff
Speaker 1: just a few decades or so, so this is definitely
Speaker 1: gonna be your call, man.
Speaker 2: But hey, Harrah, you are on.
Speaker 1: The atheist experience with secularity and doctor.
Speaker 15: Daryl Ray, Hi glad to be here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so tell us give us a little bit of
Speaker 1: an understanding of kind of the situation you're dealing with,
Speaker 1: and I will let I will let the wonderful doctor
Speaker 1: take over. I will go ahead and make the disclaimer
Speaker 1: that none of this is therapy, none of this is
Speaker 1: actual advisor, and go get you know, just for you know,
Speaker 1: we're keeping all of ourselves safe here legally. But yeah,
Speaker 1: give us a give us an understanding.
Speaker 2: What are you dealing with? Haarah?
Speaker 10: So I deconverted about two years ago and I'm still
Speaker 10: married with my husband, who is sort of agnostics, still
Speaker 10: almost like a cultural Christian, goes to church for the
Speaker 10: community of it. But his parents have been increasingly passive
Speaker 10: aggressive toward him about my actions and especially today apparently
Speaker 10: it happened that they approached him about needing to be
Speaker 10: the man of the house about me not attending Easter
Speaker 10: celebrations today with them even though I was working today.
Speaker 10: So it's not a great relationship. But I'm wondering if
Speaker 10: there's anything I can do to further support him, or
Speaker 10: if I need to take over and start to confront
Speaker 10: this conversation with my in laws directly, and if you
Speaker 10: have any recommendations.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Darryl, please take over.
Speaker 7: Wow, Okay, that's uh. That's interesting. So you your husband has
Speaker 7: he has he brought this issue to you or did
Speaker 7: you experience it? Have you been experiencing it personally?
Speaker 10: He brought this issue to me. He told me about
Speaker 10: a really rough conversation he had with his parents.
Speaker 7: Okay, okay, and uh is he asking something of you?
Speaker 10: Not right now, more just it was in a conversation
Speaker 10: of venting about it really sucks to have my parents
Speaker 10: do this to me, especially when you're not even here
Speaker 10: and you're at work. He's incredibly supportive. I just feel
Speaker 10: for him being under pressure when I'm not.
Speaker 7: Even there right right, Yeah, that it is unfortunate and
Speaker 7: very just emotionally disturbing to have that kind of dynamic
Speaker 7: in a family. And unfortunately we come from religion, we
Speaker 7: hear this every single day, so almost every single hour
Speaker 7: what you're talking about. So have you heard of I'll
Speaker 7: just recommend real quickly a book. Just just as I
Speaker 7: get ready to recommend it, it lives out of my head.
Speaker 7: I'll try to remember it later. There's a couple of
Speaker 7: good books on how to deal with this kind of
Speaker 7: problem I'm not drawing of right now. Let me go
Speaker 7: back to you, though, So what is he asked. He's
Speaker 7: not asking you to do anything, not right.
Speaker 15: Now, and I don't think he would.
Speaker 10: He generally assumes that he needs to deal with his
Speaker 10: parents because they're his parents. And I'm wondering if I
Speaker 10: take some sort of action, is about me? Their problems
Speaker 10: are about me, but they're bugging him about it.
Speaker 7: Their problems are about you. But there, that's what they're saying.
Speaker 7: Problems are really with their own son. True. So whose
Speaker 7: responsibility is it to resolve the conflict between the parent
Speaker 7: and the child.
Speaker 10: The wife of the child, because that's kind of how
Speaker 10: I grew up feeling and I'm still working on deconstructing
Speaker 10: that where I have to fix everybody.
Speaker 7: Ah, well, there you go. Good, good reflection. That's a
Speaker 7: great reflection. Well that's one thing we did learn in church,
Speaker 7: didn't we That the woman, the wife should always be
Speaker 7: responsible for keeping the avoiding the conflict, or resolving the conflict.
Speaker 7: So you you take on the burden. Yeah, pardon yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 6: The emotional Yeah.
Speaker 7: So let's do a little imaginary let's play out a
Speaker 7: little imaginary scene here. Let's I want you to go
Speaker 7: ahead in your mind and take on all this burden
Speaker 7: of the problem between your husband and his parents. What's
Speaker 7: that look like here from now?
Speaker 1: Not?
Speaker 15: Good?
Speaker 7: Can you be more specific?
Speaker 10: I don't know that tempers would remain.
Speaker 15: Calm, and I don't know that it.
Speaker 10: Wouldn't make us fracture more. And I don't think that
Speaker 10: I would. I don't know that they have the ability
Speaker 10: to handle a calm, courteous conversation about their concerns about
Speaker 10: my belief or disbelief or attendance at religious rituals, right.
Speaker 10: I don't know that they could handle that without it
Speaker 10: turning into temper slaring, and I think that it would
Speaker 10: fracture us further.
Speaker 7: Okay, Okay, So taking on all the burdens really not
Speaker 7: going to make a big difference, or it might make
Speaker 7: a difference in the sense it actually gets worse. Is
Speaker 7: that what you're saying.
Speaker 15: Yeah, I think it would get worse.
Speaker 7: Okay. I think it's important in relationships to keep the
Speaker 7: lines of responsibility really crystal clear. And your husband's relationship
Speaker 7: with his parents is his responsibility, not yours. I'm being
Speaker 7: pretty firm about that, and I you know, there may
Speaker 7: be exceptions, but I've heard this way too many times
Speaker 7: that the wife trait tries to take on the burden
Speaker 7: of resolving the problem between the husband and the in laws.
Speaker 7: Can't imagine how that's going to work out in your favor.
Speaker 10: Is there anything I can do to help him without
Speaker 10: it turning into me trying to control the whole situation?
Speaker 7: Well, okay, you just identified something trying to control the situation.
Speaker 7: Whose responsibility it is to control the situation? Is okay?
Speaker 7: So if you take on his responsibility, what's what's the
Speaker 7: consequence of that a year from now?
Speaker 10: I think he would have a worse a relationship with
Speaker 10: his parents too, and I don't necessarily want that either.
Speaker 7: So you're you're in charge of managing his relationship with
Speaker 7: his parents.
Speaker 10: Doesn't sound like that's gonna work.
Speaker 7: No, it's not, and it it probably won't work, Parah.
Speaker 7: And you are. You are deeply concerned for your husband,
Speaker 7: and that is absolutely reasonable. And you've also sounds to
Speaker 7: me like you've done a good job of listening to
Speaker 7: your husband and empathizing with your husband, and all those
Speaker 7: things are absolutely perfect. That's what you want. I want
Speaker 7: in my partner. I want somebody who's going to have
Speaker 7: my back emotionally, so to speak. But and there's a
Speaker 7: big bet, isn't it. I also don't want to absolve
Speaker 7: me myself of the responsibility of dealing with the conflicts
Speaker 7: that are my responsibility and not my very supportive and
Speaker 7: helpful and concerned partner. You are a very helpful, concerned partner,
Speaker 7: and that is super admirable. That's why we have partners
Speaker 7: on this planet. Does that make sense so far?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 15: It does.
Speaker 10: It helps out that probably can't do much, keep trying
Speaker 10: to support him in anything he decides to do.
Speaker 7: Yep, right, and he's gonna have he's going to have
Speaker 7: to make some tough decisions. He's going to have to
Speaker 7: go over to his parents' house and sit down with
Speaker 7: him and say, look, mom and dad, here's the way
Speaker 7: I'm living my life, and here's how my wife and
Speaker 7: I are living our lives. And that is our choice,
Speaker 7: not yours. We would love to have a great relationship
Speaker 7: with you. Mind us the imposition of religious requirements. They
Speaker 7: may or may not go along with that. It probably won't,
Speaker 7: but that's that's your husband's responsibility.
Speaker 1: And don't don't think of it as because I there's
Speaker 1: there's not much. There's not much I can add on
Speaker 1: to to what Darryl Ray has already said. Harrah, But
Speaker 1: my my little bit here would just be don't think
Speaker 1: of it as all I can do is just support him.
Speaker 1: The thing you are doing is one of the most
Speaker 1: important freaking things during this time. You supporting him is
Speaker 1: one of the greatest freaking things you can do.
Speaker 2: And the fact that you choose to do it all the.
Speaker 1: Time, that's awesome, right because you know, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: we could all we'll go our separate ways. We could
Speaker 1: all hear about somebody having a tough time and then decide, Eh,
Speaker 1: not my burden, not my problem. Hope it works out, buddy,
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week. But that's not what you're doing.
Speaker 1: You're not just supporting him. It's not all you can do.
Speaker 1: It's the most important fucking thing you can be doing
Speaker 1: right now, and you're choosing to do it. So that's awesome,
Speaker 1: that's huge. You know, we all go through those tough times,
Speaker 1: and ninety nine out of one hundred freaking times would
Speaker 1: wear through them. The one thing we all go is, man,
Speaker 1: I really wish I had somebody there to support me.
Speaker 1: I wish I wish all I had was just a
Speaker 1: little support.
Speaker 2: It's the most important thing ever. Harah.
Speaker 15: Thank you for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're crushing it. I think you're doing a great job.
Speaker 1: And I have heard that there is this little organization
Speaker 1: been around about seventeen ish years, I think, where they
Speaker 1: have these have these individuals on phone lines that are
Speaker 1: ready to go at a moment's notice.
Speaker 2: You just call in.
Speaker 1: It's totally free, and they will talk with you about
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, especially things that have to
Speaker 1: do with like recovering from religion or religious I can't remember.
Speaker 2: What the name of that place was, Daryl, do you
Speaker 2: remember what?
Speaker 7: Oh, I know, you're just you're you're you're pulling my
Speaker 7: leg recovering for religion. Of course, that's haarrah haarrah. I
Speaker 7: went underlined stuff that you are doing the right stuff,
Speaker 7: as Elliott said, you're doing the right stuff. Keep keep
Speaker 7: the lines of responsibility crystal clear, and you will actually
Speaker 7: help your husband better and more than if then if
Speaker 7: you wouldn't sit down with his parents or any other option,
Speaker 7: which is clearly not a good option, by the way,
Speaker 7: And I love your attitude. You're it's discouraging to watch.
Speaker 7: I totally understand that. I'm I'm guessing many of the
Speaker 7: people listening to us right now. I've gone through something
Speaker 7: like this because families really do put religion. I gave
Speaker 7: a talk hero I gave a talk sometime back in
Speaker 7: London about religious trauma and one of the key things
Speaker 7: that people face when they're dealing with religious issues is
Speaker 7: the attachment parental attachment or detachment. What we see in
Speaker 7: many cases is religious parents are more attached to their
Speaker 7: religion than they are to their kids. Think about that.
Speaker 7: I'm more attached to Jesus than abdemoon children. And what
Speaker 7: your husband's parents are doing is they are making a
Speaker 7: choice to choose their religion over their child. That is
Speaker 7: a part of the brain. The attachment part of the
Speaker 7: brain is what's being affected there. And they have inappropriately
Speaker 7: been attached to their Jesus as opposed to appropriately attached
Speaker 7: to their child. Let me stop. Does that make sense?
Speaker 10: That's really true because they I feel like they don't
Speaker 10: even know who he is, and especially with how much
Speaker 10: I've seen him grow through and support me through my deconversion.
Speaker 10: He's amazing, and I don't think that they know that.
Speaker 10: They see him as the little kids who's a.
Speaker 15: Body and a sinner rather than the amazing person that
Speaker 15: he is.
Speaker 7: Now you have just hit You've hit a great nail
Speaker 7: on the head there. They see him still as their child,
Speaker 7: don't they. They don't see him as their adult son.
Speaker 7: They see him as their still as their child, and
Speaker 7: they're still attached to that child in their own head.
Speaker 7: And when you try to get in and solve this problem,
Speaker 7: it just it will just mix the problem up more
Speaker 7: by supporting him. And by the way, it sounds like
Speaker 7: you've got a great partner there. I'm thank You're lucky stars.
Speaker 7: You've got somebody that's going to to stand by you.
Speaker 7: That's wonderful and upose he stood just behind you as well.
Speaker 7: So you guys are really creating a great bond, a
Speaker 7: great support system for each other. And don't let his
Speaker 7: parents affect that they're the ones that are still attached
Speaker 7: to their Jesus and not to their their son.
Speaker 2: And uh haarah I.
Speaker 1: I've asked people in the past whenever they've called in
Speaker 1: and they've they've had something like this, Because you know
Speaker 1: how much we love to push back on the religious
Speaker 1: claims and the Bible and all that stuff. But I
Speaker 1: think this type of call, this type of story is
Speaker 1: something that can really build some deep lasting connections in
Speaker 1: a community. So I mean, if you're cool with it,
Speaker 1: give us a call back and a little bit of
Speaker 1: time when when maybe you know you've tried some things
Speaker 1: or some things have worked, or or even if they didn't,
Speaker 1: you know, let let us know and remember that you've
Speaker 1: got a community here and you got some people that
Speaker 1: are rooting for you and stuff. I'm sure if you
Speaker 1: look at the chat right now on the live stream
Speaker 1: where wherever, wherever you're watching, h I'm sure there's a
Speaker 1: bunch of love being thrown out to you. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much for calling in today and sharing this,
Speaker 1: and I hope we get an update.
Speaker 2: I hope everything gets gets a little bit better.
Speaker 7: So if you need to talk to more, do call
Speaker 7: the helpline. We're always happy to talk to you.
Speaker 1: Recovering from religion data Org gets super easy, peasy, and
Speaker 1: they're they're there to listen and to talk and any
Speaker 1: like any time zone by the way, like they're I
Speaker 1: think like covering twenty three out of twenty four time zones,
Speaker 1: and some of those time zones is like mostly ocean,
Speaker 1: you guys, so think about that.
Speaker 2: Uh, thank you so much. Hair, I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 2: let you go, and I'm gonna grab some of our
Speaker 2: other calls. Hopefully I don't Hopefully I don't drop you
Speaker 2: too fast, but I probably did so I'm very sorry.
Speaker 2: But h man, I I love that.
Speaker 1: I think that stuff is is so so important. We
Speaker 1: are all dealing with so much baggage, and you know,
Speaker 1: our nervous systems are just on high alert constantly, you know.
Speaker 1: So it Yeah, there is a lot for each of
Speaker 1: us to kind of kind of work through, and it
Speaker 1: can be really difficult, especially when you see people that
Speaker 1: you care about being hurt over and over by family
Speaker 1: members or close you know, close friends, or you know,
Speaker 1: colleagues at work. I have a I have a buddy
Speaker 1: got fired because he came out as atheists.
Speaker 16: You know.
Speaker 1: I have friends that have lost you know, all of
Speaker 1: their all of their connections, right, we we all have unfortunately.
Speaker 1: So but that's what we're here for, folks. We we
Speaker 1: are here as a community. We want to be there
Speaker 1: for you. And there are a lot of other really
Speaker 1: phenomenal places out there that that the ACA has worked
Speaker 1: with for a really long time, and there are just
Speaker 1: some beautiful, beautiful connections there. And in fact, speaking of beautifulness,
Speaker 1: there is a group of people that volunteer their time
Speaker 1: regularly to make this show happen, and that that is
Speaker 1: our incredible, wonderful crew. Could we get that crew cam
Speaker 1: up and see all those incredible look at this.
Speaker 2: We got a full freaking house tonight. That is a
Speaker 2: bunch of awesome freaking people.
Speaker 7: You guys.
Speaker 2: We got video.
Speaker 1: Operators, audio operators, note takers, call screeners, chet moderators, people
Speaker 1: that help keep the lights on at the building, people
Speaker 1: that read your emails and respond, people that plan huge,
Speaker 1: awesome twenty four hour livestream fundraiser events on May sixteenth,
Speaker 1: that's six pm Central time starting. Hint, hint, And if
Speaker 1: you want to be one of those awesome people, guess
Speaker 1: what you can do it. You can be a guest
Speaker 1: on one of our shows. You could even eventually become
Speaker 1: a host, or if you just really really love note
Speaker 1: taking and call screening and all these other wonderful things
Speaker 1: that are super important, we are always looking for people
Speaker 1: here that would like to be a part of the production.
Speaker 2: So very easy, just email volunteer at.
Speaker 1: Atheist Hyphencommunity dot org and some wonderful volunteer will get
Speaker 1: back to you and then after a little while, maybe
Speaker 1: you could be the one responding to all the brand
Speaker 1: new volunteers, and you get to say to them things
Speaker 1: like I remember the first time I was ever in
Speaker 1: discord with Greg and he yelled at me because he did.
Speaker 2: A bad job call screening. And I'm not saying he
Speaker 2: was wrong.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying some of the some of the four
Speaker 1: letter words he used were a little bit much. AnyWho,
Speaker 1: though we have we have some other things to talk.
Speaker 2: Don't don't let them see you cried. Don't let them
Speaker 2: see you cry. Don't let him see you cry. Okay,
Speaker 2: we're gonna go out. We're gonna go out to Washington
Speaker 2: real quick.
Speaker 1: We've got an atheist on the line, Big Urn, he
Speaker 1: him pronouns, wants to ask about if Jesus died for
Speaker 1: our sins, why are women still.
Speaker 2: Suffering the burden of original sin? Why?
Speaker 1: I like that one, big Ern. I think we all
Speaker 1: have some thoughts on that. How are you today?
Speaker 11: I'm doing good.
Speaker 8: How are you?
Speaker 11: It's good to see you and hear you again, and yeah,
Speaker 11: doctor Ray, I haven't seen you before, but it's nice
Speaker 11: to see you. And I guess I'm thoughts on leadership myself.
Speaker 1: There. Okay, awesome, Well, I'll give my quick.
Speaker 2: I know this is a little tongue in cheek, right,
Speaker 2: but I'll give my my quick.
Speaker 7: Okay.
Speaker 1: The reason why women are still suffering the burden of
Speaker 1: original sin is because God was actually lying from the beginning.
Speaker 1: Like we know in the story of Genesis, he said,
Speaker 1: once you eat from the tree, you will die that day.
Speaker 2: That doesn't happen, and.
Speaker 1: God was continuing to lie when in reality, God purposefully
Speaker 1: wanted to make the world so that women suffer. I
Speaker 1: just feel like that is a much more logical answer, Darryl,
Speaker 1: What do you.
Speaker 7: Think, man, Well, of course I'm a I'm a high
Speaker 7: priest or the Church of Flying Span Monsters, so I
Speaker 7: don't believe in sin, at least not in the way
Speaker 7: that the Christians believe in it. I'm kind of pissed
Speaker 7: because I think it's reverse. I think men are the
Speaker 7: ones that are suffering from original sin if there was one,
Speaker 7: because women could have multiple orgasms and we seem to
Speaker 7: only have like one or two, you know. So that's study.
Speaker 7: That's trick. That's the study.
Speaker 11: That's tan trick.
Speaker 1: This is great, This is great, Darryl. I don't think
Speaker 1: either of us will be asked back on this show.
Speaker 1: For a while, but we will, we will continue, we
Speaker 1: will power through this one because they can't just shut
Speaker 1: us off yet.
Speaker 2: Uh so, yeah, what give us?
Speaker 1: Give us some thoughts bigger and you said you had,
Speaker 1: You said you had some thoughts on secular leadership.
Speaker 8: Yeah, so my well, my thought.
Speaker 11: Well, first off, let's go back to the original sin Port. Yeah,
Speaker 11: I was raised by a drill sergeant. Father. He was
Speaker 11: a drill sergeant in the US Army. I was an
Speaker 11: army brider, lived all over the world, you know, as
Speaker 11: Twain said at one point after he was a bigot.
Speaker 11: He said, you know, the best enemy at the enemy
Speaker 11: of bigotry and racism his travel. But but anyway, I
Speaker 11: was raised by a drill sergeant who regularly drilled my
Speaker 11: ass with a belt. And and I thought, on that is,
Speaker 11: if my dad continually said I forgive you once a
Speaker 11: month while drilling my ass with a belt, I'd be like,
Speaker 11: why you know, or you know, every night, after nine
Speaker 11: months of carrying this big ass beer belly around, he's
Speaker 11: still like kicking me in the ass saying I forgive you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty.
Speaker 1: Fucked up in Yeah, yeah, this might be this might
Speaker 1: be crazy, you guys, but I just had this thought,
Speaker 1: But it is possible that the Abrahamic religions are really misogynistic.
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not sure, honestly.
Speaker 1: I might need to do a little more research, but
Speaker 1: it's it's starting to lean that way in my eyes now.
Speaker 8: I think they lift women up.
Speaker 3: You know that.
Speaker 1: We didn't have we didn't have equal rights and equal
Speaker 1: pay until until the Bible came.
Speaker 2: Along the way. We still don't have equal rights. But yeah,
Speaker 2: what what the what are your thoughts? Bigger? And on
Speaker 2: leadership and.
Speaker 15: Stuff so on that that goes down to each one
Speaker 15: of us.
Speaker 11: Individually as parents. As I was lucky enough to be
Speaker 11: able to take my son and walk into school every
Speaker 11: morning through most of his elementary days, and every morning
Speaker 11: we had a saying as we walk to school, what
Speaker 11: are we going to be today?
Speaker 7: A leader?
Speaker 11: How do we be a leader by showing respect? How
Speaker 11: do we show respect by being kind and nice and
Speaker 11: following the rules? You know, I mean these little things,
Speaker 11: these little lessons, and we repeat them every day, but
Speaker 11: they sink in there's nothing secular or there's nothing.
Speaker 7: Religious about that.
Speaker 11: There's nothing religious about setting an example. The number one
Speaker 11: thing about being a leader is setting the example and
Speaker 11: having good results come because of that example. Got Exampbell
Speaker 11: is what being a leader is. People see that and
Speaker 11: want to follow that. I remember at one point I
Speaker 11: had a boss in my early twenties just said I
Speaker 11: command respect, and I thought to myself, no, He said
Speaker 11: I demand respect, and I thought myself, nobody demands respect.
Speaker 11: You command respect by the example that you set. You
Speaker 11: know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure? Yeah, Daryl, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 7: Well? I think I think I think you may have
Speaker 7: already taken the class, because isn't that what we talk about.
Speaker 8: I don't know.
Speaker 11: First, this is my first exposure to your doctor, Darryl.
Speaker 11: For you know, I think that's just more so coming
Speaker 11: from my dad. Even though my dad did beat the
Speaker 11: shit out of me and he taught me a lot
Speaker 11: of things not to do, he did teach me a
Speaker 11: lot of things to do and how to be, you know,
Speaker 11: how to set that example and how to how to be,
Speaker 11: how to have integrity and walk the walk and then
Speaker 11: also supprise those who walk the walk.
Speaker 7: The leader I've done. I do not endorse your dad's
Speaker 7: approach to childhood discipline, but besides that, I'll just do
Speaker 7: myself I'll just say that I've studied leadership my entire career.
Speaker 7: My entire career was built on leadership development, and I've
Speaker 7: studied a lot of military leaders and it's it's pretty
Speaker 7: clear what you see in in some of the best
Speaker 7: military leaders as they led from the front, not from
Speaker 7: the back, you know. And in the North North Africa
Speaker 7: Campaign and World War Two, the generals that got fired
Speaker 7: were the ones that tried to run the show from
Speaker 7: the back, and the ones.
Speaker 11: That got out there was also trying to run it
Speaker 11: from the front at the same time.
Speaker 13: He just had some some really bad views.
Speaker 7: Well he did, But I'm just saying leading from the
Speaker 7: front is of course it's dangerous, and in the army
Speaker 7: it's it's even more dangerous. But you're not you're not
Speaker 7: danger of your life when you're leading a secular group
Speaker 7: in Topeka, Kansas, like we heard from Sean. So there's
Speaker 7: no danger. The danger is your own perceived weakness. And
Speaker 7: if you just realize, okay, I'm out here, I'm going
Speaker 7: to put my example out here, You're much more likely
Speaker 7: to get followers than you are trying to tell people
Speaker 7: what to do, exactly, show.
Speaker 11: People exactly, let your enemies set the example for others
Speaker 11: not to follow. Yeah, if you look back to history,
Speaker 11: you were bringing up World War Two. But if you
Speaker 11: look back to history, going back to Alexander the Great, yes,
Speaker 11: he had those early victories against the Persians, but by
Speaker 11: the time he got to Babylon, they were opening the
Speaker 11: door for him. They were excited to be liberated from
Speaker 11: the Persians. By the time he got into Egypt, they
Speaker 11: were excited to be liberated from the persons. Finally, somebody
Speaker 11: who's suddenly examps, somebody's you know, winning those battles that
Speaker 11: we can't fight anymore, and we're willing to join that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's also in that way too.
Speaker 1: I will I will just just to add on to that,
Speaker 1: because I'm a big fan of history myself. The actual
Speaker 1: story of the Persian King Xerxes is a lot more
Speaker 1: like the things you're talking about than the way it's
Speaker 1: been presented. Unfortunately, unfortunately Herodotus really skewed our our our
Speaker 1: view of that. But the King Xerxes was insanely, insanely
Speaker 1: cool in a lot of ways in a time and
Speaker 1: place where everybody else was doing it, you know, completely different,
Speaker 1: And there there's a reason why throughout human history, there
Speaker 1: are just a handful of people that we really refer
Speaker 1: to as really really great leaders, and we even give
Speaker 1: them the title.
Speaker 2: The Great right. A couple of them actually, funny enough,
Speaker 2: come from Russia. How interesting is that?
Speaker 11: Yeah, Alexander didn't earn his, but he was also on
Speaker 11: her fifty years after Xerxes came in right, liberated much
Speaker 11: of Breeze from the tribalisms.
Speaker 2: Right right, right, right, It's super it's super interesting. And
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: We find out that we find out that the narrative
Speaker 1: that we've been told a lot of times, like for instance,
Speaker 1: with the Cuban missile crisis and JFK, the story that
Speaker 1: we're told on that is one where standing up and
Speaker 1: telling other people what to do and pushing people around,
Speaker 1: that's what that's what makes the day, that's what that's
Speaker 1: what great leaders do.
Speaker 2: But in reality, what JFK was actually doing, which right right,
Speaker 2: what JFK.
Speaker 1: Was actually doing was was was negotiating regularly through his
Speaker 1: brother Robert, and and they they were talking. They were
Speaker 1: having lots and lots of compromises and concessions. And you
Speaker 1: know what, that's the story we needed told because that's
Speaker 1: what a real leader does leading by example, leading.
Speaker 11: From the front exactly. Thank you very much. It's great
Speaker 11: to see you again. Uh, doctor Daryl Ray, I'm gonna
Speaker 11: look into your content and.
Speaker 8: Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 7: Guys, you welcome, Thank you born.
Speaker 1: And there is a lot of uh, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of really really good stuff out there that you can
Speaker 1: find with doctor Daryl Ray on it. So you will
Speaker 1: have you will have a bunch of a bunch of
Speaker 1: homework and I'm sure you're gonna enjoy every minute of it.
Speaker 2: Man, thanks so much.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna drop you real quick and uh, you know what,
Speaker 1: no wrap up, no preamble, We're just going right into it.
Speaker 2: We're gonna grab Michelle in New York.
Speaker 1: She her pronouns is an agnostic and want some advice
Speaker 1: on completely letting go of God again. Darryl, I think
Speaker 1: this is your wheelhouse brother, soay, hey Michelle, you are
Speaker 1: on the atheist experience with secularity and Darryl.
Speaker 2: Ray, what is up?
Speaker 11: Hello?
Speaker 8: What example is a lot of things, And first I'd
Speaker 8: like to thank my Cord Julius and can Vivio call
Speaker 8: Screener for their wonderful help on the phone and getting
Speaker 8: me ready and preparing me for the calls or called
Speaker 8: que area where they were most gracious and wonderful, so
Speaker 8: big thanks and shut it out to them even though
Speaker 8: I didn't get their name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, we do have a
Speaker 2: bunch of wonderful, wonderful volunteers here.
Speaker 1: So yeah, give us, give us some help us out
Speaker 1: set the scene for us a little bit and tell
Speaker 1: us kind of what maybe is still keeping you secularity.
Speaker 13: You did mention, and I just for for sake of
Speaker 13: the show.
Speaker 8: You did mention that people can work for the show
Speaker 8: is called screeners and whatnot?
Speaker 13: Can do that remote? Can they do that remotely?
Speaker 15: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I did.
Speaker 2: I did for years.
Speaker 1: I worked behind the scenes for a bunch of different
Speaker 1: shows here at the ACA, and I have always been
Speaker 1: in Tennessee. So absolutely, just email volunteer at Atheist dash
Speaker 1: community dot org and someone will reach out to you
Speaker 1: and and and start working with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Most of the people you see in the crew cam
Speaker 1: are spread out, some some in different states, some in
Speaker 1: different countries.
Speaker 13: Wow, you guys, get around you doctor jail Ray secularity.
Speaker 8: I'm switching off you and I'm going there tell Ray,
Speaker 8: but I'd like because you inspire.
Speaker 13: Me during the last couple of calls, and I got
Speaker 13: some gold nuggets to show. I got some go boolli
Speaker 13: in to share with you guys.
Speaker 8: Heck yeah, I love it some in a psyche department.
Speaker 7: Okay, go for it.
Speaker 6: You are the doctor?
Speaker 13: Are you not the doctor?
Speaker 1: Right now?
Speaker 13: You're the doctor, because I'm the only doctor I'm talking
Speaker 13: to you.
Speaker 8: You got to be the.
Speaker 7: Doctor right well for now, I guess that's true.
Speaker 8: And i'd say your doctorate, since I've seen you on
Speaker 8: multiple occasions, i'd see your doctorate must be in a
Speaker 8: little bit of everything, because you know a little bit
Speaker 8: about everything.
Speaker 7: Well, I'm seventy five years old. I've had a little
Speaker 7: time just daddy, So that's problem been part of it.
Speaker 7: Tell us, tell us about what your concern is. Tell
Speaker 7: us about your concerned.
Speaker 13: I started my deacon, I started in my deconstruction process
Speaker 13: a long time ago, and I got start.
Speaker 8: I got started in the fundamentalist Christian, Charismatic, Pentecostal Baptist.
Speaker 8: My former my former men spiritual mentor who broke my
Speaker 8: heart personally in several different ways because he turned out
Speaker 8: that he became a not a nice gentleman in.
Speaker 13: His later middle in later years, let's.
Speaker 8: Say, really just kind of got me down this deconstruction path.
Speaker 8: And I said, God, I mean there's a song to God.
Speaker 8: I said, you know, I mean he put me in
Speaker 8: his wife and he said he was gonna bring me
Speaker 8: up in his.
Speaker 13: Church in his department, and and I would.
Speaker 8: Follow after him. And that didn't happen.
Speaker 13: Was that you or him?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 15: Was that?
Speaker 13: Did I miss it?
Speaker 8: I thought I heard from you? Like, so then I'm
Speaker 8: like thinking that I'm get to reading about this stuff.
Speaker 8: And now some people believe, like Carol Yung and Freud
Speaker 8: believes that God like was just an archetypical thing in
Speaker 8: your psyche, and that when you were hearing from God,
Speaker 8: you were simply hearing from a part of your own
Speaker 8: psyche and your own awareness and your own cognitiocence and consciousness,
Speaker 8: if you will. And I'm sure you know that very well.
Speaker 7: All about that, doctor.
Speaker 8: Ray so like and even now on the phone listening
Speaker 8: to you guys speak, I'm like, I can, Okay, Well,
Speaker 8: I had I had this love affair with a beautiful woman.
Speaker 13: And I don't mean like she was married.
Speaker 8: I mean it was just a big love to do,
Speaker 8: like an affair like a fair and I carried the
Speaker 8: torch and the candle for her for.
Speaker 13: About twenty years, and then it was just eating me
Speaker 13: alive inside.
Speaker 8: And I said, I have to do something about this,
Speaker 8: otherwise I won't have any more so I won't have
Speaker 8: any successful relationships.
Speaker 13: And I said, I choose out loud.
Speaker 8: I said, I choose not to love her any more.
Speaker 8: I choose not to love her anymore.
Speaker 13: And then I called that. I called her out by need.
Speaker 8: And then initially immediately I felt that wave of ease
Speaker 8: come over me.
Speaker 13: And I was like, I don't love her anymore.
Speaker 7: Good was good?
Speaker 6: And then.
Speaker 7: Are you are you let me let me? I know
Speaker 7: we've gotten short on time, so I don't want to
Speaker 7: short you. I want to understand, but I also want
Speaker 7: to make sure we keep going.
Speaker 11: Here.
Speaker 7: Are you making the parallel with letting go of God
Speaker 7: the same as letting go of this woman?
Speaker 13: Yes, you got okay, right that doctor right okay? And
Speaker 13: then MiG we knew you would.
Speaker 7: So you are you are saying I was able to
Speaker 7: let go of this woman, but I can't seem to
Speaker 7: let go of God. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 8: Well, during the conversation that you two were having with
Speaker 8: the gentleman and the young lady with her husband and
Speaker 8: they're living their the construction. I was thinking, maybe I
Speaker 8: need and it never dawned on me, and I said,
Speaker 8: maybe I need to do the same thing with God.
Speaker 7: Maybe that there you go, there you go. So let
Speaker 7: me let me throw out some let me throw out
Speaker 7: some ideas here because I'm really interested. I'm one of
Speaker 7: my biggest interest is how religion impacts our brain. And
Speaker 7: I mentioned in that previous call, which may have been
Speaker 7: what what motivated you a little bit, is that our
Speaker 7: attachment systems are active, and our attachment systems are activated
Speaker 7: to attached to children and to our partners, our spouses
Speaker 7: and such. And that is an appropriate use of the
Speaker 7: attachment system. As humans, attachments really really important to us.
Speaker 7: As we thrive with attachment, we don't thrive without it
Speaker 7: as nearly as much so what you but the problem
Speaker 7: is with religion is religion gets our brains to attach
Speaker 7: to our invisible friend, God in this case, and once
Speaker 7: you're attached to that, detaching is painful and it's difficult.
Speaker 7: Just like you found with the woman. You were attached
Speaker 7: to that woman, but detaching caused pain and it took
Speaker 7: you a long time.
Speaker 16: I can tell you, I can tell you what I
Speaker 16: love for God that I still love her, and I'll
Speaker 16: tell you why. I tell you why, Doctor Ray. I
Speaker 16: felt there's tears. I felt they're slow dripping tears fall
Speaker 16: on my bear chest, Doctor Ray.
Speaker 7: Each one of.
Speaker 16: Those tears I could still fill them now like nails
Speaker 16: and my chest like morvel blades and my chest, Doctor Ray,
Speaker 16: the words will still.
Speaker 7: That's the wound of attachment. And I'm I'm totally feel you.
Speaker 7: I understand, and I'm sorry to see you still suffering
Speaker 7: because it's not easy to detach from a living human being.
Speaker 13: I'm so glad you're married, doctor Ray. And how a
Speaker 13: happy marriage?
Speaker 8: I really am, I mean, and I needed that thought
Speaker 8: just now.
Speaker 13: I'm like, well, doctor Ray, is a happy marriage? Maybe
Speaker 13: one day I should.
Speaker 15: And so one only I could get over this pod.
Speaker 7: It's sometimes it's really difficult, and I will uh no,
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, glad. Yeah, it's it's difficult to to detach.
Speaker 7: It's very easy to attach. Our brains and our bodies
Speaker 7: are made to attach. We've got a great attachment system
Speaker 7: going on, but our brains and bodies are not designed
Speaker 7: to detach. And that's what I hear you suffering with
Speaker 7: is how do I detach from this the memory because
Speaker 7: you're no longer involved with this person, but yet the
Speaker 7: memory still is attached, if you will in some ways.
Speaker 7: Let me throw this suggestion out here. You're not involved
Speaker 7: with this woman anymore, am I correct?
Speaker 11: No?
Speaker 8: I mean that's all too a couple of times, handful
Speaker 8: of time over the years.
Speaker 7: Okay, So think about this. She is an invisible being,
Speaker 7: just like God is an invisible being. Yet you're still
Speaker 7: attached to the invisible being that you no longer have
Speaker 7: a physical relationship with. Yeah, that makes sense. You are
Speaker 7: carrying the invisible being of this woman, and you're carrying
Speaker 7: the invisible being of God, and both you feel the
Speaker 7: attachment for and cannot and are having difficulty. I would
Speaker 7: say this, call or go to the Secular Therapy Project
Speaker 7: dot org and find a good therapist. We've got therapists,
Speaker 7: did I hear hear from New York? Yeah? We got
Speaker 7: We probably got sixty or seventy therapists in New York,
Speaker 7: in New York City and in the state.
Speaker 8: And I can't afford a doctor. I can't afford you
Speaker 8: that kind of therapy. I've already looked into it.
Speaker 7: Okay, how much can you afford to suffer? How many
Speaker 7: more years do you want to suffer?
Speaker 8: I'd be a sad question to answered, doctor A, because
Speaker 8: I'm afraid you might already know what what with you
Speaker 8: guess an idea writer and a poet and an artist.
Speaker 8: By now, I mean you must offering for.
Speaker 11: Me, are.
Speaker 7: Well without myst offering when people say, when people say
Speaker 7: they can't afford to get help, that's why it's your
Speaker 7: pocket book. But do remember you're you've already suffered for
Speaker 7: years over this. What is suffering worth? Right?
Speaker 13: I don't know, doctor Ray. And that's the other sort
Speaker 13: of the coin. But here's here's the thing. I think
Speaker 13: I can help a lot of people.
Speaker 8: I think I can help a lot of people with
Speaker 8: saying this one thing that I reverberated back into my
Speaker 8: consciousness when I said, why can't I do the same
Speaker 8: thing with God? If I could do it with her?
Speaker 8: And even now when I do it with her, because
Speaker 8: I have to make sometimes even a daily practice of it.
Speaker 8: Sometimes now that May, especially now that May is coming
Speaker 8: up in spring, because it was a spring May low.
Speaker 10: So.
Speaker 8: You know, and I said, I choose not to believe
Speaker 8: in God anymore.
Speaker 13: And I'm like, I could do that. I choose not
Speaker 13: to believe in God anymore.
Speaker 8: I could do that, and I choose not to believe
Speaker 8: in you, God anymore. I choose not to believe in
Speaker 8: you any little anymore. And then I heard a small
Speaker 8: voice inside me say, I choose not to believe in
Speaker 8: me or myself anymore. And then it just ultimately leaves
Speaker 8: me at the thought that my the archetype inside my head,
Speaker 8: I am God.
Speaker 15: God is dead.
Speaker 13: Therefore God is dead.
Speaker 8: Or he never existed to begin with, who knows? That's
Speaker 8: fine and agnostic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll I'll say one one thing here to wrap
Speaker 1: up this call Michelle, that I I definitely didn't come
Speaker 1: up with this thought. And I remember when I was
Speaker 1: going through a deconstruction phase many years ago, and I
Speaker 1: heard somebody say this probably on the atheist experience, to
Speaker 1: be honest, But there's all there's these moments in our lives,
Speaker 1: especially when we're religious, where we tell ourselves, I can't
Speaker 1: do it, I'm not capable. If only if only God
Speaker 1: were here, if only Jesus would would lift this burden
Speaker 1: off of me, or this religious mindset would would help
Speaker 1: calm me down and then funny enough, we find.
Speaker 2: That we can do the thing right.
Speaker 1: We are able to get through whatever the difficult time is.
Speaker 1: And at that moment when we're when our minds are
Speaker 1: still so locked in this religion, we tell ourselves there's
Speaker 1: no way we could have done it had it not
Speaker 1: been for the beauty and majesty and power of God
Speaker 1: or his son Jesus Christ. But one of the coolest
Speaker 1: fucking things I realized after stepping away from religion, it
Speaker 1: was always me.
Speaker 2: It's always been you, Michelle.
Speaker 1: That stuff has never been there, and you're the reason
Speaker 1: that you have made it through every hardship in your life,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna be the reason that you make it
Speaker 1: through the next one. No God, no supernatural, no aliens, no,
Speaker 1: none of that shit. It's you and that that is
Speaker 1: fricking power. And I will I will absolutely echo doctor
Speaker 1: Daryl Ray and saying, you know, if you can, please
Speaker 1: reach out to the Secular Therapy Project Recovering from religion.
Speaker 1: It's free to call in to the to the helpline there,
Speaker 1: and they have some trained people there.
Speaker 2: They're not therapists. It's not the same as secular therapy.
Speaker 1: So definitely secular therapy project is going to be super
Speaker 1: helpful for those deeper and longer term things. But remember, Michelle,
Speaker 1: and I know I've talked with you before, and I
Speaker 1: know you've called in a bunch, and just remember this
Speaker 1: is your community, just like Harah, and we want to
Speaker 1: hear some updates. We want to know how things are going.
Speaker 1: And you've got a bunch of love coming for you
Speaker 1: in the chat. And again remember you too could could
Speaker 1: be a volunteer if you wanted. That's how I started.
Speaker 1: Just some idiot in the chat and I reached out
Speaker 1: and they said, well, well I guess you'll work, and uh,
Speaker 1: and here we are.
Speaker 2: But thank you, thank you so much, Michelle.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry that I'm gonna have to drop you
Speaker 1: real quick, but I really really do appreciate you calling
Speaker 1: in and I hope.
Speaker 2: We get some updates soon.
Speaker 1: So that is always an awesome, awesome opportunity for us
Speaker 1: to just connect with our people and just share in
Speaker 1: some of those difficult times.
Speaker 2: You know that that's what a community's for. It's not
Speaker 2: just for the good times and the parties.
Speaker 1: It's for when our house falls down or when we're having,
Speaker 1: you know, some some difficult weeks.
Speaker 2: So let's raw, raw men, raw men. Indeed, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: on this holiest of days.
Speaker 1: Let me read a couple of these awesome super chats.
Speaker 1: We got four ninety nine coming in from Clash two
Speaker 1: three four seven, been a member for one year, saying
Speaker 1: doctor Ray spitting facts on parents loving religion more than
Speaker 1: their children. I'm in a very similar situation. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: get that clash. I know a lot of people like
Speaker 1: that as well too. And that was I love that
Speaker 1: line so much. The parents love the religion more than
Speaker 1: they love their children.
Speaker 11: Ooh ooh.
Speaker 1: We got one ninety nine coming in from the awesome
Speaker 1: l Tree fitty six sixty six saying, hey, hey, happy
Speaker 1: zombie Jesus Day. That's right, folks, Happy zombie Jesus Day.
Speaker 1: Eat your crackers if you want, or your chocolate. And
Speaker 1: then we got one more. We got five dollars coming
Speaker 1: in from a member for one years. I am m
Speaker 1: four c There's something there that I'm not getting. There
Speaker 1: is something here that I'm not seeing, So I'm very sorry.
Speaker 1: I probably butchered to Dave. It's probably very smart and
Speaker 1: it is just over my head. But they say, fan
Speaker 1: of the show, can you mention where to get the
Speaker 1: flyers to invite believers to call in. Yeah, there might
Speaker 1: actually be some watchers out there that don't know that
Speaker 1: these exist, and here they are on screen right now,
Speaker 1: And the easiest way to do that is just go
Speaker 1: to atheistiphencommunity dot org. You go right to the website
Speaker 1: and then you can find that downloadable flyer and you
Speaker 1: can post it up anywhere that is allowed to. Okay, guys,
Speaker 1: don't just start being an asshole and just posting this everywhere, like, actually,
Speaker 1: make sure you get permission from the places that.
Speaker 2: You're gonna do this for.
Speaker 1: But yeah, otherwise, I mean, other than that, go go
Speaker 1: go crazy, guys, go print out, you know, ship tons
Speaker 1: of them and get some people to call in.
Speaker 2: And speaking of calls, we had.
Speaker 1: We had a really cool call right at the beginning
Speaker 1: that myself and our wonderful backup host Sophia got to
Speaker 1: take part in.
Speaker 2: Hey here you are again?
Speaker 5: Hello can you hear?
Speaker 7: So good to have you back on?
Speaker 2: Yeah, what what did you think? Give us? Give us
Speaker 2: some thoughts for the show today.
Speaker 3: I really love watching you doctor ray do so you know,
Speaker 3: I also work on mental health and I was just
Speaker 3: you know, Elliott's messaging, Oh do you want to jump
Speaker 3: in on this call, and I'm like, no, I'm just
Speaker 3: listening and learning.
Speaker 5: This is so good.
Speaker 7: So thank you.
Speaker 5: Uh, that was very very cool to get to see.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, I feel like a lot of
Speaker 3: folks are struggling more or less in isolation. They don't
Speaker 3: necessarily realize there's other people who are going through the
Speaker 3: same kind of not just deconstruction process, but the same
Speaker 3: challenges with family, because I think a lot of the time,
Speaker 3: particularly if or from a family that's never made like
Speaker 3: a big deal about religion, it's not expected that they'll
Speaker 3: respond as negatively as they as they end up doing.
Speaker 3: If they if feud convert, you know, it's thought like, oh, well,
Speaker 3: we weren't that into it anyway, or you know, whatever
Speaker 3: that might be, and then it becomes a huge deal
Speaker 3: and it can become so contentious. It feels like you
Speaker 3: get these tests when you know, I know I'm not
Speaker 3: the first one to say this, but when you're leaving religion,
Speaker 3: suddenly you need to know every answer and have the perfect,
Speaker 3: you know, reason to leave when just staying feels so easy,
Speaker 3: or like you could just you know, not tell anybody
Speaker 3: or stay incognito about it. Or people ask why you
Speaker 3: have to make such a big deal about it when
Speaker 3: really it's just you sharing your lived experience.
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, definitely, and it is.
Speaker 1: It's it's it is one of the biggest things that
Speaker 1: we deal with in this space, and it is honestly,
Speaker 1: it is connected to I think at least there is
Speaker 1: a through line from that to the connection when it
Speaker 1: comes to struggles that we have found in our space
Speaker 1: building ritual and building communities and organizations. Because the moment
Speaker 1: you start passing a plate around at an atheist gathering,
Speaker 1: everybody says it's like tithing. You know, the moment you
Speaker 1: the moment you just ask everybody to stand up and
Speaker 1: just join in singing a song, even though it's it's
Speaker 1: it's fricking you know.
Speaker 2: Send me on my way, you know, that's silly.
Speaker 1: Little like you get somebody, you get them to stand up,
Speaker 1: they go, ah, this is seals too churchy, you know.
Speaker 1: And I get it that trauma is is huge. That
Speaker 1: affects all of us in so so many ways. But
Speaker 1: that's why the secular therapy project and recovering.
Speaker 2: From religion exists, y'all. That's what we got this souff for.
Speaker 1: Let's utilize the avenues and the resources already in our
Speaker 1: awesome communities.
Speaker 7: You know, we have a we have a little thought
Speaker 7: thought experiment we asked people to do when with these
Speaker 7: kind of issues come up, and that is we tell
Speaker 7: people that your brain has neural pathways, and those neural
Speaker 7: pathways are built over time, over and over and over
Speaker 7: again until you just do them automatically. Like you know,
Speaker 7: I know how to drive my car automatically. I didn't
Speaker 7: know that when I was fifteen years old, but I
Speaker 7: do now. So the neural pathways are really solid. Unfortunately,
Speaker 7: the brain can create neural pathways that are bad for you,
Speaker 7: like religious ideas, and when those religious things get stimulated
Speaker 7: in your brain, then the brain automatically goes down that
Speaker 7: pathway and you don't realize you're halfway down the pathway
Speaker 7: of being triggered by a song you heard on the radio,
Speaker 7: religious song, or your parents call you up and say
Speaker 7: Happy Easter and you want to yell at them or whatever.
Speaker 7: But it's so. What we try to teach people, even
Speaker 7: in a non therapeutic environment is challenge those pathways and
Speaker 7: redirect the pathways and just keep practicing. When I hear
Speaker 7: that song I'm going to not let that go any farther.
Speaker 7: I'm going to turn I'm going to do another pathway
Speaker 7: to it. That's my old life. I'm now living a
Speaker 7: new life that is actually creating a new pathway. And
Speaker 7: there's other things you can do, of course, but I
Speaker 7: think the neurological pathways thing is really helpful for many
Speaker 7: people once they realize that they they're in control of
Speaker 7: those pathways. It doesn't feel like you are, but once
Speaker 7: you realize, oh, that's just one of those pathways I
Speaker 7: got when I still was in church, I'm going to
Speaker 7: change that. You take a little control over your own
Speaker 7: life that way.
Speaker 1: I love that, and I think that that is the
Speaker 1: perfect segue into you telling everybody one more time what
Speaker 1: this awesome new initiative you have started, and why this
Speaker 1: is so valuable, and just how everybody can go out
Speaker 1: out there and either take the class themselves or help
Speaker 1: support this cause.
Speaker 2: So that we can build the next generation of leaders.
Speaker 7: Just go to Secular Leadership dot org. You'll see all
Speaker 7: the stuff about the course and why we're trying to
Speaker 7: do it. My goal is to My goal is to
Speaker 7: train one thousand leaders in the next ten years, and
Speaker 7: that is going to be hard, but we're going to
Speaker 7: get it done. And we've already got several people right
Speaker 7: in there helping us. I'm going to train people and
Speaker 7: how to train this stuff. I will stay in charge.
Speaker 7: I think it's going to take us about three years
Speaker 7: to get there. But here's the deal. Every church on
Speaker 7: every church. You can go down the street in my
Speaker 7: house and find twelve churches within a mile of my house,
Speaker 7: and every one of those churches has some kind of
Speaker 7: a leadership program. All I'm trying to do, and all
Speaker 7: we're trying to do is not just Darrel, It's a
Speaker 7: whole group of people. We're trying to say, Look, we
Speaker 7: got to get out there and teach leadership just like
Speaker 7: churches do. Only leadership is based on true, evidence based
Speaker 7: secular practices that are best practices. That's and it's important
Speaker 7: because we want to grow. And I have been so frustrated.
Speaker 7: I've been involved in the sector secutor of movement for
Speaker 7: twenty years, and I'm frustrated because we are not growing
Speaker 7: as much as we could be. We've got lots of
Speaker 7: people out there that are dying to get good leadership,
Speaker 7: and they will follow good leadership if we just provide
Speaker 7: that for them.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and if you're a really girl, you can
Speaker 3: do it also, unlike in a church where.
Speaker 5: I'm ever allowed.
Speaker 7: So yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5: I was told I could be a deaconess and I said, well,
Speaker 5: what does that mean? What do they do? And they're like, well,
Speaker 5: they organized fellowship. I'm like, they make the cookies that
Speaker 5: they make for your day, that's what I'm allowed to do.
Speaker 5: Cool things.
Speaker 7: Well, half of our class was female, half was male,
Speaker 7: and that's the way we like it.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think there's a real difference in the way
Speaker 7: males and typically lead, but both are effective. But we
Speaker 7: still there's still best practices regardless of what you're you're
Speaker 7: you claim, you claim or you ask propose in terms
Speaker 7: of gender or whatever.
Speaker 1: We and these again, like you're saying, these are things
Speaker 1: that yes, have been utilized in a religious or or
Speaker 1: a church space for a long time, but not because
Speaker 1: they have a damn thing to do with religion or
Speaker 1: the supernatural. It's because they are effective practices that work
Speaker 1: when it comes to leading people and getting results, and
Speaker 1: that is what we need in this space. So I
Speaker 1: am just I am super duper thrilled because Darryl I
Speaker 1: was really happy to be on here with you and
Speaker 1: help get this out there to people. I was so
Speaker 1: excited to be a part of the first cohort, and
Speaker 1: again I am going to be coming back for the
Speaker 1: next round because I genuinely believe in this cause. And
Speaker 1: I hope a bunch of you wonderful people out there
Speaker 1: hanging with us, whether it's TikTok or YouTube's or you're
Speaker 1: seeing clips of this on Twitter or Reddit or whatever
Speaker 1: the kids are doing these days, I sure as fuck
Speaker 1: don't know, but thank you all so much for hanging
Speaker 1: out with us. Please go check out the Secular Leadership
Speaker 1: dot org. Please go check out Recovering from Religion and
Speaker 1: Secular Therapy Project, And don't forget that there are a
Speaker 1: thousand frickin ways that you can get involved in this
Speaker 1: wonderful community right here at the Atheist Community of Austin.
Speaker 1: But we're done for today, so I'm supposed to say
Speaker 1: the nice things about wrapping up and how we'll see
Speaker 1: you all here shortly.
Speaker 2: Don't forget to like and subscribe and share it to
Speaker 2: your friends and tell your neighbors about it.
Speaker 1: And I don't know your dog too, I don't know
Speaker 1: who you talk to, but we'll be back at four
Speaker 1: thirty pm Central Time next Sunday. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if there's something I'm forgetting, but hopefully at some point
Speaker 1: we'll just kind of end the show. It'll just happen naturally.
Speaker 2: We won't even.
Speaker 8: Realize it's start.
Speaker 14: Hartt Question.
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