WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:09.359 Callaroga Shark Media. 2 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:14.320 It's me again, Hello, Johnny Mack with your daily comedy 3 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:18.359 news bonus edition. Earlier today, the normal Tuesday episode went 4 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:21.039 out later today, I will have a Jimmy Kimmel bonus 5 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:24.719 episode for you, as Jimmy Kimmel is returning to Jimmy 6 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:27.800 Kimmel Live tonight, so that should be exciting. Give us 7 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:30.399 all something to talk about this episode. My guest is 8 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:31.800 Mark Malcoff. You know Mark. 9 00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:34.479 He used to host The Carson Podcast. He currently hosts 10 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:36.880 the Inside Late Night podcast. Boy, I hope they can 11 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:39.840 find something to talk about. And as I discovered on 12 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:42.759 the fly as we recorded this interview, that's back today 13 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:45.240 for a new season. Totally accidental. 14 00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:47.359 I reached out to the guy because he was on 15 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:49.159 my radar anyway because of the book, and then there 16 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:51.479 was this whole Jimmy Kimmel thing, so that worked out 17 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:53.359 for both of us. He also has that new book 18 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:56.960 it is called Love Johnny Carson. In this conversation with 19 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:00.200 Mark Malcoff, author of Love, Johnny Carson, host of the 20 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.359 Carson Podcast, host of Inside Late Night, we'd talk about 21 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:09.159 Johnny Carson, but also words like leno letterman, fallon Colbert 22 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:12.640 and oh yes, Kimmel gets said. So here's my conversation 23 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.560 with Mark Malkoff and Johnny. Mack started with a long 24 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:18.680 winded question, I definitely want to talk to you about 25 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:20.400 Carson a lot up front. I'm sure we'll get to 26 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:24.519 the other news of the week. I'm struggling here. If 27 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.159 we could do like some sort of Marvel movie time 28 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:31.560 travel and somehow insert Johnny Carson into this current era 29 00:01:31.719 --> 00:01:34.120 of kumbaya, we all get along. I don't mind that 30 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:35.840 you have another talk show at eleven thirty on the 31 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:37.560 other network, and I'm not sure I can even get there. 32 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:44.239 But if I can, I'm struggling to imagine Johnny doing, say, 33 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:46.640 what Stephen Colbert has done, or what David Letterman has done. 34 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.680 I was trying to channel my inner Johnny this morning, 35 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:51.519 and with all apologies, the best I could come up 36 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:54.519 with would be a joke, something like I on the 37 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.439 way over here, I saw Jimmy Kimmel working at the 38 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:01.079 Windy's and then looking left right, did that joke? Land? 39 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.840 I can't picture him doing a ten minutes die tribe 40 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:08.919 about the government to the FCC as a Carson expert. 41 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:11.520 What do you think, Johnny Carson would somehow do in 42 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:12.520 twenty twenty. 43 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:16.479 Five, I think he would probably just be doing the 44 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:19.199 same show that he did for thirty years. But I 45 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:23.960 mean it did upset presidential administrations. Like Nancy Reagan called 46 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:27.280 the show twice and was upset. Gerald Borg said it 47 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:31.639 was a love hate relationship. Jimmy Carter's mom, Lillian called 48 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.199 Carson and ass, I don't know if you can swear 49 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:36.520 on this, but until she met him and went on 50 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:38.360 the show, and then she thought she he was delightful. 51 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.240 So you know him, like Jay Leno, like Conan, they 52 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:46.759 were always doing hammering whoever was in office. It was 53 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:49.360 just you know, they were you couldn't You've never knew 54 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.719 where Johnny was voting. I mean, he would hammer. When 55 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:56.080 he found out that the Reagans were upset with his jokes, 56 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:58.000 he said, that's surprising. He thought we were tougher on 57 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.319 Carter or Jimmy Carter. But I think it was since 58 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:04.520 well Rogers just like you have people like this that 59 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:08.560 just did this. But it was definitely very different for 60 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:13.319 somebody to take like Colbert and Kimmel to take stanzas 61 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:15.960 but it's different, you know, people forget I think that 62 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:18.840 first year when Colbert was on, he wasn't taking his stance. 63 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:21.240 He was getting cloppered in the Ravens. He was number three, 64 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:23.879 He was doing the show he wanted to do, and 65 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:26.879 Trump was on the show with him, and I thought 66 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.879 he was easy on him, and Stevens acknowledged that. But 67 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.240 I think Carson was just doing the same show. I mean, 68 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:34.599 his rule up until he retired in Burbank was no 69 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:37.759 politicians in all office. And he broke it twice, only 70 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:40.319 once for Reagan on the anniversary show in seventy two 71 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:43.280 because they were out of videotape because NBC he found 72 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:45.479 out how it erased the first ten years and they 73 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.439 needed big stars, and Reagan did five minutes, and then 74 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:51.280 once with Clinton only because he did saxophone and he 75 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:53.840 was not famous. They booked him as a civilian, which 76 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.240 was for the non famous people in eighty eight. Were 77 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:58.080 in nineteen eighty eight when they got in trouble with 78 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.759 the DNC speaking for thirty three minutes when he's supposed 79 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:04.199 to do fifteen, and he was getting just trounced in 80 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:07.759 Carson's monologue, and then those are the only two times, 81 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:10.360 so he just yeah, it was it was a different show, 82 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:13.080 and I just think times change, and yeah, and I 83 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:17.079 think Johnny would definitely, I think, just get this huge 84 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.600 kind of like just be baffled by the whole thing. Today. 85 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:23.839 I did see over the weekend some Trump joke circulating, 86 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:27.800 one with a joke about Jennifer Flowers being the backup mistress. 87 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:29.560 So there were a couple of things like that, but 88 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.800 they were later in Johnny's tenure. But yeah, I can't 89 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:37.600 imagine him doing you know, ten minutes about the way 90 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:39.639 cold Err is doing it his way outside. I think 91 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:43.319 two with Johnny and Letterman got into this as well. 92 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.759 There's a type of needling joke that's just fun among friends, 93 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:50.839 like a Mark Malkoff joke. Punchline might be he's probably 94 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:53.480 watching a Carson rerun, like it's a harmless joke, whether 95 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:56.800 it's true or not, as opposed to you know, digging 96 00:04:56.839 --> 00:04:58.439 in about you know why so and so is a 97 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:00.959 horrible person. I think you're right that it's just a 98 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:01.600 different time. 99 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:06.160 Dave took a different approach the later years. I think 100 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:09.680 after he said John Stewart on cable was, you know, 101 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:13.319 was going after politicians and taking kind of a stance 102 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:16.680 that Letterman, Yeah, Letterman just you know, he emulated he 103 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:19.160 wanted to know what did Johnny do at this point 104 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:20.759 in his career and trying to emulate him. But the 105 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:23.160 thing that he the one thing that he didn't was, yeah, 106 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.879 he started to get a little bit with his political views, 107 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:28.879 and I think that that probably gave room for the 108 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:31.560 others to do it a little bit. I mean, I 109 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.720 do find the Colberts first season very interesting when he 110 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.680 didn't try to do that again, him and Kimmel a 111 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:40.639 two hundred people, you know, staff and crew that depend 112 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.040 on him. And I get why Colbert did what he 113 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.199 did just because he was number one. When you're number 114 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.439 one and it's working, you just keep doing what is working. 115 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:52.959 But you definitely, like Carson was very much like you're 116 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:56.600 going to alienate fifty percent. Like I talk about it, 117 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:59.319 like David Steinberg was doing a Nixon thing and Carson 118 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:03.319 routine and Nixon it is getting some laughs, but at 119 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:06.240 the braid, Carson just told Steinberg it's like you're losing 120 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:08.439 half your audience. It doesn't bother me, but they're not 121 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:13.920 with you yet. And yeah, that definitely like, yeah, it's 122 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:17.000 definitely not where Carson would would would would would go 123 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:20.680 to taking a stance, but it definitely he hammered. I 124 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:22.959 mean he especially in New York. He was he had 125 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.199 a lot of politicians on he had that. He had 126 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:30.199 people like atheists like Marraton, like Merck, Madeline Murray O'Hare, 127 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:32.680 the head of the NRA, the head of the Church 128 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:35.480 of Satan, believe it or not, Jim Garrison from the 129 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.839 JFK movie, who is a prosecutor who with the first 130 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.319 real JFK kind of conspiracy. So they definitely did the 131 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:46.000 politics the first ten years over there. But again you 132 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:48.600 just had no idea where his politics lie. He did 133 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.439 do something for Lyndon Johnson in his inaugural, which he 134 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:55.120 did definitely wish he didn't looking back, but it was 135 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:57.560 like non political. It was like so many stars were 136 00:06:57.560 --> 00:06:59.879 there and basically the attitude was like it's for the 137 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.319 new president. You want to support them. But he he 138 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:05.560 really tried to stay out of politics. If Sinatra corralled 139 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.040 him in one of the Reagan inaugurals, because he was 140 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:11.360 Frank Sinatra and he Johnny kind of owed him, which 141 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.399 I talk about in the book. So he did. He 142 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:18.879 entertained one of the Franks and Reagan inaugurals because Sinatra 143 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:20.519 was producing, but he didn't want to do it. 144 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:22.959 I have so many threads I could pull on, including 145 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:25.360 the fifty percent stuff, but I want to save the 146 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:29.199 Jay Leno conversation for later. Let's talk about your book. Sure, 147 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:31.839 I'd like to hear you say the title, because I 148 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:34.000 can't tell if it's like I got a love note 149 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.120 from Johnny Love Johnny Carson. It's love Johnny Carson. So 150 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:38.399 how do you pronounce the book? 151 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:41.439 The book is called Love Johnny Carson. And the reason 152 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:43.279 it's called Love Johnny Carson is because I talked to 153 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:46.360 over four hundred people, and overwhelmingly they would tell me, 154 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:49.319 either when we were recording or not recording, or an 155 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:54.040 email form, that I love Johnny Carson. They would say, yeah, 156 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:57.639 I love Johnny Carson. And I was like, the I 157 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.439 didn't expect that to happen. Just I basically, you know, 158 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:04.560 I'd read some of the books, and I had heard 159 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:07.360 with people like Joan Rivers and just a few people, 160 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:10.199 like two or three people that were the loudest megaphones 161 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:12.319 over the years that would repeat stuff about him. And 162 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:15.680 there's only a handful of people if that that really 163 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:19.040 had bad stuff to say. But definitely seemed like that 164 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:23.720 those were the loudest voices. So I was very I 165 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:26.079 don't know, it was conflicted going into the podcast because 166 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.079 I just didn't want to put negative stuff out there. 167 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:32.360 I just didn't want I wanted to tell the truth, 168 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:33.919 whatever the truth was, but I thought it would maybe 169 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:36.799 be seven episops because it would go to negative. And 170 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:39.799 I was shocked when I talked to his friends and 171 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:41.519 I talked to people that worked there, and it was like, 172 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:45.360 he's unrecognizable. I really believe in this book talking to 173 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:47.960 the four hundred people, I mean, this is the conclusion 174 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:49.960 I made. And I think if people listen to the 175 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:54.240 Carson podcast that overwhelmingly the people loved him and the 176 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.120 stuff that how he acted with his friends. Universally, they 177 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:00.919 would say he was the same Johnny on the show 178 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:04.960 as he was with them, but they had to feel Curson, 179 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.720 I had to feel comfortable with the person, but they 180 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:11.039 would say he was nearly the same Johnny. His second 181 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:14.120 wife said the same thing. Yeah, he was a bad drinker. 182 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.200 He would acknowledge it on the show, not only with 183 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:19.159 Mike Wallace in sixteen Minutes in nineteen seventy nine, he 184 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.200 would talk about the drinking he struggled with the drinking. 185 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.679 He became a different person, which I go into. He 186 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:30.480 would admit he had huge flaws from perfect extremely sensitive 187 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:34.080 individual and that goes with my book with him banning 188 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:37.240 some guests that I go into. He was just for 189 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:39.360 somebody that was in the public eye and that famous 190 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:42.159 it really are. He would get his feelings hurt all 191 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:43.519 the time. He was one of those people that would 192 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.519 say the critics. He never believed when guests would come 193 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:48.039 on and be like, the critics don't hurt me, have 194 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:50.480 a that thick skin, and it's like not always hurt. 195 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:52.600 He would read all the press. He read all those books, 196 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:55.080 negative books about him. He just he would read the 197 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:57.559 press on him, but it would hurt, and he would 198 00:09:57.600 --> 00:09:59.600 talk about that. I mean, yes, sensitive guy. 199 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:02.519 I listened to the Carson podcasts. Uh, you know, I 200 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:04.120 guess you could have gone out of your way to 201 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:07.039 books if we dig deep enough. Somebody hates me, hates you, 202 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:09.639 hate Johnny Carson. You could have gotten on somebody. But 203 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:12.320 it's what you said that everybody really liked him personally. 204 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:14.159 I did try to get Joan Rivers. I tried to 205 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:16.960 get Waye Newton, I tried to get only a handful 206 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:18.360 of people that I knew. But if if I knew 207 00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:20.679 Elaine Boosler, a people that had problems, none of them 208 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:22.919 would talk to me. Please continue to hearing. 209 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:25.600 I was going to name drop Joan Rivers. I worked 210 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:27.960 with Joan in you know, two thousand and two thousand 211 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:29.799 and two, that range when she had a radio show 212 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:34.840 with w OAR, and she you could tell the whole 213 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:37.159 breakup bothered her, but she didn't have a bad word 214 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:40.039 to say about Johnny Carson off the air, behind the scenes. 215 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.759 You know, obviously things went sideways there and it bothered her, 216 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:45.720 but she had nothing but reverence for Johnny Carson. 217 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.039 I think when she got a mic in front of 218 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:51.080 her and a camerash, the venom would spew. But like 219 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.080 I think, like I think, when she was with talking 220 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:55.480 to people, it was a lot of it was just 221 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:57.159 like he was the best straight man. He knew how 222 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.200 to set me up and made my career. I do 223 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.840 go very in deep in depth with that story. I 224 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:05.919 met Joan a few times and she's like twice and 225 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:10.159 she's just very nice and like I'm her pressed to find. 226 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:14.039 I mean, the people I know ultimately loved her so much. 227 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:15.679 People that worked with her, the people that knew were 228 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:17.440 and I write about this and I defend her that 229 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.559 the people that worked on the Tonight Show. There's a 230 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:22.279 lot of people I talked to that loved when she 231 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:24.879 was over there guest hosting, and I wanted to make 232 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:27.240 note of that. But we I do go in very 233 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:29.960 specific about the versions of the people that were at 234 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:32.600 the Tonight show and what happened on there and and 235 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:36.080 what some of miss Rivers friends and people that knew 236 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:38.399 her thought. And it's like it's such a night and 237 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:42.120 day story with Joan Rivers was there and always like 238 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:45.639 I just couldn't believe, like somebody really smart, Like I'm 239 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.360 not gonna mention names, but there's like one comedian that 240 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.399 recently was talking about the Joan Rivers thing and just 241 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:53.399 like how they both believed to this day, it was 242 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.960 so simplistic that Johnny just you know, Joan didn't tell him, 243 00:11:57.159 --> 00:11:59.559 so he never talked to her again. The end of story. 244 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:04.879 Didn't have to air his dirty laundry and the specifics publicly. 245 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:07.600 He didn't owe anybody that and he didn't. I mean, 246 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.399 somebody asked him one time during because after this monologue, 247 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:13.279 a lot of times he would take questions from the audience. 248 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:15.720 Somebody like asked him, what are your thoughts in Joan 249 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:17.519 go in to Fox and he's like, I wish her 250 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.440 the best. I mean after he never mentioned her on 251 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:23.600 air after the show got canceled, he never mentioned her 252 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:26.399 publicly that I'm aware of. I mean, he was a 253 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:28.799 couple two journalists. I would have handled it differently, or 254 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:31.399 I don't think she handled it well. But like, yeah, 255 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.399 he wasn't going to get into like a back and 256 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.600 forth thing about it. But I go into a lot 257 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.279 of depth, and there's a lot of revelations about what 258 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.320 according to the Carson staffers and according to some of 259 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:46.120 miss Rivers friends, what happened was. 260 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:49.080 The book blessed at all? Did you talk to the estate? 261 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.480 The nephew, Jeff Satzings is the controller of the estate. 262 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.159 I still believe you know, did you guess the ring 263 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:56.840 or you draw on your own? It doesn't matter if 264 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:59.960 that's a stupid question, John, it's a good question. 265 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.720 Jeff knows about it. I told Jeff he hasn't read 266 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.480 it yet to my knowledge, but I really hope he 267 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.600 likes it. Like I had. Somebody who was on my 268 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:12.399 podcast been like, is it like, is it a pro 269 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:14.919 Johnny or is it anti Johnny book? And I'm like, 270 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:16.960 I wrote that. I just and I told them, I'm like, 271 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.000 I wrote the truth. And he's like, oh oh, And 272 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.960 I'm like the truth is because I feel like I 273 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.600 just I owed it to the listeners. Like some people 274 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:26.840 were urging me. You might not want to make him 275 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.519 look bad. It might take away empathy from the audience 276 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:32.360 in your book. And I'm just like, I just wanted 277 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:35.039 to write the truth. But my conclusion, and I think 278 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.320 people that read the book ultimately is overwhelmingly positive. I 279 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.360 mean that is the people that I talked to. I mean, 280 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:46.440 I yeah, he there was definitely when he drank there 281 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.919 he was not it was he called himself. It was 282 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:51.799 like he said it was he be fine and that 283 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:55.720 one more drink. He compared himself to Attiladahn and I 284 00:13:55.799 --> 00:14:00.440 go into the drink game stuff. But overwhelmingly, I mean, 285 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:02.879 it was stories like that. I couldn't include all of them. 286 00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:05.519 I wish I could add to a director's cut of 287 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.200 the book. But how much amazing stuff he did for 288 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:10.440 people behind the scenes, and he didn't want any poop listed. 289 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:12.399 I mean, everyone knows about the foundation which at the 290 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.639 time was the largest foundation. It was like one hundred 291 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:16.960 was it one hundred and eighty one hundred and ninety 292 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.080 million that he left. That's still the foundation gives away 293 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:23.679 millions of dollars every year to all these different groups 294 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:27.759 and charities and nonprofits. But he was doing the same stuff, 295 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.399 just a peepool, and it was just it was just 296 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.679 not the Johnny Carson that I expected at all, and 297 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:36.960 I was shocked, and I felt like there should be 298 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.799 a book out there that answers like I feel like 299 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.120 there's a people that made certain claims, and I felt 300 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:46.600 like I wanted to put the truth, like Wayne Newton, 301 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:51.399 for example, about what I believe happened, doing a little 302 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:53.960 bit more research than him waiting for Johnny to pass 303 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.480 away until he could make a claim because he I mean, 304 00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:59.639 it's easy to wait until somebody dies to make such 305 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.480 a claim that he did on Larry King in two 306 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:04.879 thousand and six, two thousand and seven or whatever it was. 307 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:06.639 And I was like, I know what, I feel like, 308 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:09.960 I just need to like set the record straight according 309 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.720 to what the research I have done, and I did 310 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:15.600 a little bit of that here and there. I really 311 00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:18.039 wish you would have participated, but what can you do? 312 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:21.120 Uh before we even get to the Carson podcast, let's 313 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:24.200 back up before that to the eye test. You see 314 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.960 him within vaguely my age range. So for me, I 315 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.840 watched Johnny Carson at first because it was the thing 316 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:34.039 on that I killed time waiting for Dave to show 317 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.320 up at twelve thirty and came to approchiate. So what 318 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.320 is your Johnny Carson. You don't seem like you were 319 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.519 watching episodes in nineteen seventy one, so what So what's 320 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:45.799 your journey do you? Why do you? Why are you 321 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:46.679 like the Carson guy? 322 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:49.639 I think when I was like really little, like four 323 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:51.720 or five, I you know, my dad was showing me 324 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.399 stuff like it's a mad, mad mad mad world, Murdered 325 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:57.720 by Death. So like I knew who like all these 326 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.279 people were, Like, I mean, I knew who Jonathan Winners, 327 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:06.639 Peter Funck, Eileen Brennan, so many, like Peter Seller's movies. 328 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.440 I was watching The Pink panother there, and he's in 329 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:10.960 Murder by Death, which is like the greatest movie. But 330 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.600 it's like, Okay, Truman Capodi, I know who he is now. 331 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.799 And I was like such a sponge in terms of 332 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.240 like early entertainment. My dad would just tell me he 333 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:20.639 got to go to Carson's show in sixty eight and 334 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:22.639 would tell me who was on this show, and he 335 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.039 showed me. You know. Sometimes they would do these primetime specials, 336 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:28.879 the anniversary shows, which were the those were the things 337 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:30.799 that really I would fell in love with the show, 338 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.840 I feel like, but sometimes Friday as I could stay 339 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.440 up and watch clips or the watch a little bit 340 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.879 of the show. But the thing with Carson is he 341 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.879 you could show kids and the animals segments him talking 342 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:46.080 to kids that this the sketches like are gonna go 343 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.679 over a lot of the kids' heads, but like there's 344 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.080 enough within the sketches where they can work on different levels, 345 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.759 kind of like some comedy does. But he was just 346 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:57.759 so likable, and it was a party, and I got 347 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:01.399 to you know, sometimes like danger Field, I didn't really 348 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.720 I probably shouldn't have been watching his sets when I 349 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:05.880 was a kid, but like I didn't get some of it, 350 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:07.799 but he was just so funny and I did get 351 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:09.920 some of it. But it was just like this adult 352 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:12.799 party with all these people and show business, and I 353 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.960 just loved the comedians especially and when the animals were 354 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.319 Jim Fowler or Joan Embery, but those anniversary shows were 355 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:21.839 like the best. I mean, those were those the clip 356 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:23.640 shows I think were the thing that really did it 357 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.160 for me. But I was just obsessed with entertainment in general, 358 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:28.000 and I was just trying to, you know, like a 359 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:30.920 sponge with comedy, just anybody, just watch as much as 360 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.079 I could. But he was so likable. I think that's 361 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.799 why he succeeded thirty years without any real serious competition. 362 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.200 Was the liability thing, and he was completely himself on 363 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:44.240 air that I asked Larry King and I talked to 364 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:45.640 other people, I'm like, why do you think he was 365 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.119 so successful on this? Like it's obvious, it was so clear. 366 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.160 It's he was himself. I mean he definitely like was 367 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.680 a shy person, but he you know, he's with he 368 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.720 was in control and comfortable. He could be that person, 369 00:17:57.759 --> 00:17:59.279 but that was definitely part of him. But he was 370 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.839 definitely a like all of us, a complicated person. 371 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.039 So is it more than just even in New York 372 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.000 City there were seven channels and what else you're going 373 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.119 to watch at eleven thirty? Because you know, Dick Cavitt 374 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.720 is likable, but maybe doing a more low to term 375 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:13.920 he or smarter show. But then again, his guest is 376 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.319 John Lennon. That seems pretty cool. I might watch that, 377 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.440 So is there more to Johnny just then? Yeah, he 378 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:21.759 had eleven thirty back at a time when what else 379 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:22.200 you're watching? 380 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:27.559 At one point there were him, David Frost, merv Griffin, 381 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:31.799 and Cavot. Yeah, it was four of them going ahead 382 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:35.200 to head. So I mean there definitely were last options. 383 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.480 But I guess I definitely think at the end of 384 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:41.200 the day, I think these shows are always about likability. 385 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:43.880 I think he knew his audience, and you know, he 386 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.240 would read the letters that would come in. He would 387 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.000 personally respond to people. Sometimes when they were upset with 388 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.640 a joke, he would either call them or write them 389 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:56.680 a letter. He definitely was would study tapes like like 390 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.880 an athlete, like a coach, watching clips of his team play, 391 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.720 and he was just he would say, and at least 392 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:06.799 in the New York years, I find myself that's all 393 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.119 I think about is the show. And I mean I 394 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.799 think he would probably realize that's not the most healthy thing. 395 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.200 On the occasions him calling up on off weeks, calling 396 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.720 Fred de Cordova up with ideas for the show. When 397 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:19.880 he comes back. You know. He would always say he 398 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.440 didn't really watch the show that much. Sometimes if he would, 399 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.000 he watched it most of the nights. It seemed like 400 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.119 he would stan up and watch his show, and he 401 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.400