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Speaker 1: To the people, to the top and.

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Speaker 2: To the to the welcome everyone. I bet you were

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never expecting this. I have fellow Christian great debater with me,

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Jay Dyer. Jay, How you doing.

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Speaker 1: What's up? Michael? I'm doing good. Glad to be here

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with you. We had some pounds of common ground because

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we both have had some recent Islamic interactions and so

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when you reached out, I was happy to come back on,

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to come on and have a conversation about this contentious period.

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So really glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm super happy to have you here. I really

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appreciate it. One of the things I do focus on

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is trying to find common ground among Christians and show

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the world that we are not as divided as people

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think we are. I think you and I probably agree

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on more than we disagree. And since there's something came

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up that I thought we could stream on, I was like, yeah,

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let's do it. Let's let's have a stream to break

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all streams. And this is what I was happy to

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happy to do.

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Speaker 1: So for those about you know, when you said you

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you know you agreed with the monarchy of view of

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the triad and all that, I was like, yeah, we

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can definitely. You know, we can work from there for sure.

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And you know, especially when it comes to opposing Islamic

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claims of the fact that there's not the Trinity and

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deity of Christ in the first, second, and third centuries.

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I mean, I think I think it's going to be

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really clear after today's discussion that absolutely isn't the case.

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The Trinity is absolutely there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So let me give everyone a backstory why we're

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here today. So, both Jay and I have been dealing

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with Muslims in the past few months. We both had

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debates with the infamous Danielikikichu, which I want to talk

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about briefly here. By the way, for any of you

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who have not seen Jay's debate with Danielikikachu, when this

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stream is over, you need to watch that because Jay

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wiped the floor with him. It was phenomenal. I was

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in the back cheering. I was like, Wow, I didn't

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expect this to be this good. So I was super

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pleased with that, and I was really impressed by your

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knowledge on the topic and your argumentation and how you

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got you basically demonstrated he was arguing, as you said

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it in a circle. That was a perfect line. You

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kept using on him, but what brought us here today?

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So recently, two Muslims were on the PVD podcast, very

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very big popular podcast. They were debating two Christians, brother

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Rashid and Robert Spencer. The two Muslims were Daniel Okikachu,

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who both Jay and I have debated, and Jake the

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Muslim metaphysician, and a lot of claims were made by

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the Muslim side. One claim really stood out, which is it?

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Jake said, prior to Nicia, there was no trinity. He

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was an evolved tradition. It came about later and when

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I heard that, I was like, You've got to be

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kidding me that that's just that's just not true. I'm

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thinking of like church fathers that are just popping into

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my head. I'm like, what about this one? What of

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this one? What about this one? Like, Jay, what were

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your thoughts.

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Speaker 1: When you heard that? Yeah, exactly, you know this is

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a common Muslim or frain. I got into Muslim apologetics.

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Maybe it's kind of it's all still kind of new

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to me. It's only about four years that I've really

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started debating Muslims, and I remember that maybe the first

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time we had that debate. That was one of the

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first things they said. And I'm just like, it would

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take you. I mean, if you were really serious about that,

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it would take you. Nowadays, with the ease of information,

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I mean, you could go to a new advent, you

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could go to you know, websites pretty easily and check

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and see within five to ten minutes if there were

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trinitarian citations prior to and I see it. And one

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thing I'd like to do today is hopefully go beyond

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just the kind of a quote mind not that it's

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necessarily wrong to have a quote mind showing it, but

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we can go a lot more into depth because it

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turns out in the first, second, and third century, there's

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a wide swath of references to these things throughout not

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just this or that specific church father, but many church

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fathers throughout the Roman Empire in a life lot of

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different importan sees and even obscure fragments that are all

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relevant to see that there's a there's a sort of

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a wide picture scope that we can get that they

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absolutely confess both the deity of Christ and the deity

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of three persons, even if they don't use the phrase trinity,

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which I'd like to talk to about that a little

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bit more because that relates to the Muslim debates because

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they always say, well, where's the word trinity in the Bible?

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You know where where is where is trinity? And you

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know ignacious or whatever, as if the word itself has

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to be there when you can have the concepts there exactly.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't have said it better myself, And yeah, we will,

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we will definitely get into that. I'm going to just

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let you go all out because when I saw the

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stream they made, the Muslims made the case that Christians

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are all super divided, and I remember thinking, who could

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I do a stream with to show one that Christians

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are more unified than people think, but also knows the

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Patristic fathers well. And the first person that off in

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my head with Jay Dyer because I've not seen all

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your stuff, but when I've seen you do trinitarian stuff

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or church history stuff, you're you were knowledgeable on that stuff.

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And I was like, we're both streamers, we both do YouTube.

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I've been studying church fathers a lot. As I said,

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I recently read this book by Michael left Bird which

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I'll bring up Jesus among the Gods, which he does

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a lot of great stuff on there about early Church

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belief in the Trinity, and I was like, this will

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be a perfect way to just eat the easily debund

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Just as you said, quote after quote, there is so

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much we can go through. I mean, it's just so

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much to say that there was no trinitarian theology prior

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to Nicee It. It's just it was mind blowing to me.

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Speaker 1: There's also too this, since that's such a common objection,

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maybe this stream can become like the de facto go

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to stream when people say, hey, uh, you know, I

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got this Muslim, I got this, Joe's witness whatever. You know,

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they're saying there's no such thing as a trinity before,

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and I see a boom. You've got this stream. We're

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going to have all the evidence out for you.

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Speaker 2: We most certainly will, and if everyone who was interested.

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Jay's jade Aris channel is a link below. He talks

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about Patristic fathers at times, and again, Jaye and I

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don't agree on everything. That's fine. We are both Christians,

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we both profess christ, we both believe in the Trying God,

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and we're there's more we agree on and work today

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is about agreement, unity in the body of Christ and

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working together to combat just errors and thank you for

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the super chet. Another great channel, Daniel Apologetics. Uh, this

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live stream is my pleasure machine. Did did you see

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the recent debate between Matt Dillahunty and Hakiki Chu We're

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big pleasure? That's a past a prophet and I went

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into a whole big analysis of that and it just.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I put that clip up when it got

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really heated on Twitter and I got a lot of

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views from that, so that was amazing. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: All right, So what I figured we'll do is I

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will put up the PVD podcast here. Let me put

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this up here. So yeah, well, and then we're gonna

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talk about Justin Martyr a little bit because that's one

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guy who's specifically brought up. We're going to cover that extensively.

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And then I'm gonna let Jay go wild here and

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he's just gonna go through a patristic father here, patristic

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father there, and he'll share his screen if he wants to.

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But there's a lot to cover here, and just everyone's aware,

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we're not going to cover every trinitarian quote from Church Father,

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because if we were thinking of for three out exactly exactly,

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there's so many but we're gonna give you a really

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good survey you can use to combat, as Jay said,

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Muslim Joe Ah witnesses anti trinitarians who make this bogus

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claim that the Trinity didn't exist before Anicel. So if

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anything else you want to add Ja or else, we

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can get right into it.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm good, I'm ready, ready when you are all right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I put it a little bit further back so

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people don't accuse us of taking this out of context.

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They're finishing up the last thoughts they had before they

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jump into the trinitarian aspect.

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Speaker 1: And people are sart rejecting it after the finding these

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little details insidey. I want to give them an opportunity

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to respond and then we can go to the next issue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like to respond because Robert brought up Apostolic

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succession and claims that these doctrines have been held you

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know since the beginning of Jesus. Jesus proclaimed his message

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to the apostles, and they passed it on to early

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church fathers and then all the way down the line,

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and it's been this consistent message throughout but on very

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core doctrines which Daniel and I would actually like to

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spend more time on what he called the ninety five percent,

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which is actually monotheism. Unfortunately, we believe that Christians, Trinitarian Christians,

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are representing a veiled form of polytheism. And you claim

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that this was the consistent message over time. Well, let's

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see what Justin Martyr, your own saint, says. He's in

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the beginning of the second century. He was born in

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the year one hundred. In his famous dialogue with Tripho,

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chapter fifty six, he says this, let's see if his

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theology is the same as yours, Robert, I shall attempt

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to persuade you, since you have understood the scriptures of

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the truth of what I say that there is, and

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that there is said to be another God and Lord,

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subject to the Maker of all things, who is also

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called an angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the

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Maker of all things, above whom there is no other God,

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wishes to announce them. So Justin Martyr says that Jesus

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is a second God, is another God, separate and distinct,

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and he is a lesser divinity. Now John Behar, who

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I'm sure you would know, is a famous Eastern Orthodox authority.

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Today he comments on this passage. And he says this,

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as it is not God himself who thus appeared and

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spoke with man the word of God, who did all

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of these things. For Justin quote another God and Lord,

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besides the Maker of all, who is also called his Angel,

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as he brings messages from the Maker of all, above

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whom there is is no other God. Then he says

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about this passage, the divinity of Jesus Christ, another God,

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is no longer that of the Father himself, but subordinate

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to it, a lesser divinity. Now that's just one example.

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Justin Martyr, who you would consider a saint, you may

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even pray to, as the Eastern Orthodox pray to dead saints.

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But the reality is that your theology, according to you,

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on the Trinity is actually more correct than the person

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that you're praying to. And I can go through a

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whole more list of on key doctrines like the doctrine

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of the incarnation, the atonement, and the Trinity itself that

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the early Church authorities like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and

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on and on up until the fourth century, never preached

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the doctrine of the Trinity, Sir, So when you make

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the claim that your message has been consistent without what

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we see in the very beginnings on the fundamental point

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of who God is, you did not have the same

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doctrine to get to the fourth century. And that's why Christianity,

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because at its very beginning, was very comfortable with development.

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Oh who is God is a man? God? There is

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a God and man at the same time. So if

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you can have those sorts of developments, of course you

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can have developments about how laws are applied and whether

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or not we should be celebrating LGBTQ and all of that.

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Speaker 2: That's your history, sir, not at all all right. So

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that is the full clip. I played it all the

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way through just to give you guys kind of an

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idea of what we're dealing with here. There was a

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lot of topics discussed in this podcast, that wasn't it.

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They didn't spend that much time on the Trinity at

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this point. They kind of went back and forth on

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plenty of topics. But what Jay and I want to

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do is we want to address this claim that Jake made,

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which is that there was no doctrine of the trinity

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in Justin Martyr Trutolli and Aaronaeus, any of the Church

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Fathers prior to Nicea. Guys, that's just a monsterly false.

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I don't know anywhere to say that, Like, what are

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your thoughts on that, Jay, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Just opening thoughts. A couple things that I think were

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word concept fallacies when the Church Fathers the time of Nicea,

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for example, when they use the phrase in the Creed

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God from God, light from Light, that's very similar to

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the phraseology of justin that Jesus the logos is God

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from God, the Father. And the reason that it's not

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multiple gods is that the word God is not a

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specific noun that only picks out the divine nature. This

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is actually an argument that Muslims use where they collapse

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any term or predicate of the divinity to only refer

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to the essence of God or the unitarian nature of God.

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So we all agree that God's essence or nature is one,

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but the word God, even in scripture for example, is generic.

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It can pick out a divine person, it can pick

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out the divine nature, it can pick out a divine energy,

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and it can even pick out non divine created things

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like angels, demons, or humans. So the word God is

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a generic term that its meaning or referent is determined

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partially in terms of the context and the intention of

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the writer, much like the phrase angel. So when Justin

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is calling Jesus the Angel of the Lord, this is

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an apologetic argument. He makes a lot of use of

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against Tripho, where he's trying to say, Hey, your texts

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in the Old Testament demonstrate this distinct person, this distinct

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second hypostasis. That's not God the Father or Yahweh, but

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sent by God the Father Yahweh, and has the name

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and the nature of God the Father, and is also

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called by derivation Yahweh. That Angel of the Lord is

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the logos the second person of God had So I

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think Jake misunderstood that the phrase God from God must

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therefore signify by theism or tritheism in terms of the Trinity.

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It doesn't. And then say secondly the phrase subordination. Things

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can be subordinated in different ways, so the word subordinate

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does not necessitate onto logical or metaphysical diminished status. So

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the assumption was that if the Father, for example, Jesus says,

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is greater than I greater, how right, if we look

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at the other passages, Jesus says that he has all

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the same works and powers that the Father has. All

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the Father has he's given to the son. So we

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wouldn't want to say that it's an ontological or metaphysical subordination,

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but there could be what we call an ordinal or

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a causal subordination there where the Father is the first

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in the triad, he's the source, he's the cause, and

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then the son, in the terms of the doction of

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the eternal generation, derives his existence from all eternity from

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the Father. So that derivation, though, does not necessitate a

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lesser status in terms of his deity, powers, operations, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love the way you were that you've

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done that in pastumes. You're very good at wording and

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explaining these terms here, so I do appreciate you going

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into that because you're very good at explaining, like you know,

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with modes or subordination, that these don't have one meaning.

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That you're used in different ways. And if you look

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in the Old Testament, the word elohem is used of God,

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it's used of demons, it's used of Samuel when he's

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dead and angels. It's used of multiple ways, not just

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one way. But let's pull up the quote here from

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Justin Martyr. I want to talk a little bit about

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this because that was one guy he specifically brought up.

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So you can see here this is on New Advent

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when you pull this quote right up here, and this

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is the party's talking about here where Justin is replying

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to Tripho and he says, I shall attempt to persuade

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you since you've understood scriptures of the truth of what

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I say, that there is and that there is said

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to be another God and the Lord's subject to the

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maker of all things, who is called an angel. Now

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here's the thing I say about church fathers. Most of

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them don't really have the gift of brevity. Sometimes it

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makes a while for them to get their thoughts out

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and elaborate on certain things, and sometimes they've been misunderstood

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by even scholars in the past because of this. Often

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you gotta keep reading. It's you just can't see a

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quote and go aha, see this explains this whole theology. No,

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because if you go down further, he continues to elaborate

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on these things. Chapter fifty six is quite long. But

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when we get down to chapter sixty one, what is

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Justin say here says, I shall give you another testimony,

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my friends, from the scripture, is that God begot before

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all creation of beginning, who was a certain rational power

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proceeding from himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit,

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now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son again, Wisdom,

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again an angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos.

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And on another occasion he calls himself Captain when he

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appeared in human form to Joshua, the son of Nunne.

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For he can be called by all those names, since

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he ministered to the Father's will, and since he was

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begot of the Father by an act of will, just

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as we see happening among ourselves. For when we give

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out some word, we beget the word, yet not by

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a decision so as to lessen the word, which remains

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in us when we give it out. And just as

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we see also happening in the case of fire, which

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is not lessen when it is kindled another, but remains

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the same. And that which has been kindled by it,

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likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from

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which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is himself,

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this God begotten of the Father of all things, Ward

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and wisdom and power and glory of the beginner. We

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bear evidence to me, or will bear evidence to me.

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And you can see right in this section Justin is

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continuing his thoughts when he says talking about Jesus being

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God being an angel, he then goes back to the

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whole ontological discussion. He notes, this is fire from fire,

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this is God from very God. Where are we getting

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ideas that we see in the Nicene Creed. Well, it's

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coming from church fathers like justin, God of God, of God,

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very light, of very light, being of one substance with

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the Father. You know, if you go to a traditional church,

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you're gonna say the nice and Crene every week like

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I do, you're gonna see something like this. And the

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Nicing Creed didn't come dan Nova out of nothing. It

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came from church fathers like Justin. In this very section

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you can see very similar language. He's using fire as

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a metaphor. The sun is fire from fire, Father from

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some kind of thing. They're the same substance. It's not

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something that is entirely different. And again, as I said,

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sometimes it takes a while for a church father to

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really get to explain his whole theology. Here you just

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can't take one quote and go, oh, you see he

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says it's another God. Well, that's not what he meant

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by God. He does not have this polytheistic outlook, or

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he's not like an arian. He then goes on to

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explain this is fire from fire, and you can also

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see this in Justin's first apology. Justin's first apology Again,

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I've read this so many times because I've had to

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deal with Jesus mythesists basically saying things like, oh, this

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is just proof that Jesus was just like pagan deities.

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And I'm like, all right, let's go back through this again.

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That's not what Justin is saying. But in this he's

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very clearly pointing out that Christians are basically believing in

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one God who is three persons. So he deals with

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the charge of atheism. In chapter six he says, hence

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we are called atheists, and we confess that we are

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atheists so far as the gods of disord are concerned.

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He's talking of the Roman gods, but not with respect

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to the most true God, the Father of righteous and

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temperance and other virtues, who is free from all purity,

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but both him and the Son who came forth from

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him and taught us these things, and the host of

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the other good angels who follow are made like to him,

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and the Prophetic Spirit. We worship in a door, knowing them

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in reason and truth, declaring without grudging to everyone who

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wishes to learn and have been taught. If we go

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to chapter thirteen, Justin goes further into this, so he's

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talking more about Christ. He says, for example, let me

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pull it up here on my thing. He says, our

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teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who is the

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son of the True God himself, and holding him in

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second place, and the Prophetic Spirit in the third, we

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will prove, for they proclaim our madness to consist in

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this that we give to a crucified man a place

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second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the creator of all.

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For they do not discern the mystery that is herein

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to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray,

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pray you to give heed. So basically he's sorry every

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wrong chapter that was on fourteen, But basically he's pointing

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out in here that we have basically placed Jesus Christ

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on the same level with the Father, the Creator. It's

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not this idea that he is subordinate or less or

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somehow of a different substance. Justin is very clear. This

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is fire, a fire God of God, very substance. Now,

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Jay brightly pointed out that the son is subordinate to

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the father in like a causal aspect or like an

396
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economical aspect is often used Trinitarian language, but he's not

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subordinate in ontological aspect. I know they doctor Josh with Sigiwati,

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who's another monarchal Trinitarian, says they share all in the

399
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same divine essence, all ontological intrinsic properties, and so there's

400
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nothing there that would be distinct or different. Jay, is

401
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there anything you want to say about Justin or any

402
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of these passages? Anything you want me to go to.

403
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Speaker 1: No. I think you stated exactly the way I would

404
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describe it. It was good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I want to put up some quotes here

406
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as well, and then I'm going to let Jago all

407
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out on here.

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Speaker 1: But I wrote, let's do One thing I would say,

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is that a lot of what you saw there in

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Justin that Michael was just going through, you're going to

411
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find a lot of similar passages in a lot of

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these other church fathers that we look at. So it's

413
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not like, well, this is just Justin's speculation, and maybe

414
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he helped develop the Trinity. He played a role as

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a prominent martyr, and he's called in our tradition Justin

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the philosopher, So he was a priminent apologist. But he's

417
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just one of you know, dozens as we'll see. So

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this is not what you know, just an outliers. What

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I'm trying to.

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Speaker 2: Say exactly, that's definitely well said. We're going to get

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to that, but before we do, I want to get

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to some quotes because Jake brought up a quote from

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John Behar. Okay, and I will say, when I go

424
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through this scholarship, I have seen some scholars accused Justin

425
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of this. I don't think it's a consensus you because

426
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there's a lot of pushback, which we'll cover here. So

427
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for example, Thomas White says it's helpful in this respect

428
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considered briefly some key ideas of early Trinitarian thought. Not

429
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and Justin Martyr aaronais respectively. Justin Martyr clearly affirms that

430
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Jesus Christ is the pre existing steff of God, and

431
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he attributes personal agency to the son as one really

432
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distinct from the eternal Father in person, in in not

433
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in name only. Justin is not therefore a Unitarian theologian,

434
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and his thought, when judged by later standards, is unambiguously Prototrinitarian.

435
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And he notes in his work by that he basically

436
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means the word He's just not using the word trinity.

437
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But he's clearly teaching the theology that we see after

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the church fathers come up with the work.

439
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Speaker 1: One thing I'd add too, is he didn't say which

440
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,359
John Bart book he's pulling for. He's probably pulling from

441
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Wade and Nicea, which I have. And it's also disingenuous

442
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to give the impression that Bear was saying that, you know,

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Justin is some kind of Unitarian or tritheist. In that book,

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you know, I think he goes on to argue, I'm

445
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not at my normal home, so I don't have my library.

446
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But in that book he goes on to argue because

447
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it's all about the path to Nicia, and so actually

448
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the book is the defense of the very things that

449
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we're talking about today. So he's not the book is

450
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not Father Barr admitting that, oh, they're all anti Trinitarians,

451
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and then now by Nicia becomes the trendy. That's not

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what the book's about.

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Speaker 2: Ja, Are you saying that in a Muslim quote? Mind something?

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I don't think it's ever happened. Are you sure.

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Speaker 1: I know it's hard to believe because we know that

456
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they always strive to have the most scholarly, accurate, honest sourcing.

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But yes, in this case, well, here.

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Speaker 2: Here's another great quote. So this scholar here Bukar, he's

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basically responding to earlier scholars that accused Justin of being

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more a Subordinationists or a Unitarian. And in this section

461
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of his book he states Justin himself clearly states that

462
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God alone is the object of worship and honor. Father, son,

463
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and Spirit are certainly included in Justin's scholar expedition of

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Christian doctrine. Justin is well acquainted with the Christian Trinitarian

465
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profession of faith to give an account of the sunny

466
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deployees of Christological reading of Biblical theophemies, which enables him

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to proclaim Christ as the Lord who appeared to the

468
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patriarchs and prophets before being incarnate from the Virgin to

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speak about the spirit he adopts a variety of approaches,

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one of which is the adaptation of early Jewish and

471
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,400
Christian I forget how pronounce this, we're angeological speculations, I

472
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,480
believe now. In this book, as I said, he's responding

473
00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:55,559
to people who've accused Justin of not being trinitarian, and

474
00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:59,640
he notes the problem is that sometimes Justin diffuses words

475
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,759
like aim, angel or spirit differently depending on context. And

476
00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:07,200
that's happened where scholars will say, well, if he's saying,

477
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,160
you know, like an angel's a spirit, he's saying Jesus

478
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,799
is a spirit, then he's saying that Jesus is not God.

479
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,000
But that's just not true. And again this has been

480
00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:18,160
addressed by a lot more recent modern scholarship. Here another

481
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,319
great scholar I'm not gonna quote, but he has a

482
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:23,720
great chart in his book, Tarmo Tomb And as you

483
00:26:23,759 --> 00:26:28,039
can see on this chart he differentiates between one miss doctrines,

484
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,920
Polytheus and Triune. At the top of his list in

485
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,680
the first three centuries of Christianity, who do we see there?

486
00:26:35,039 --> 00:26:39,759
Lo and behold Justin Martyr he labels as trinitarian, along

487
00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:43,720
with Tertullian Arenaeus, another other Church Fathers that Jake said

488
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,279
did not profess to Trinity, and actually he puts Novationan

489
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:51,000
in there, which I actually maybe might be wrong about this.

490
00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:54,480
I thought he was not fully Trinitarian, but tomb seems

491
00:26:54,519 --> 00:26:56,839
to think he is. So I'm gonna go back and

492
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,240
read Novationan after looking at this and going, well, maybe

493
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,920
I was wrong about it. I thought maybe I misunderstood

494
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:02,359
something in it.

495
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,079
Speaker 1: But it's my understanding that the Novationists did profess the

496
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,960
Trinity because when one of the arguments for that is

497
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,799
that when Novationists were received back into the church, if

498
00:27:13,799 --> 00:27:15,839
they came back to the church, they didn't have to

499
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:22,559
be necessarily rebaptized or undergo even reordination, because the idea

500
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,799
was that the Trinitarian profession was at least still there

501
00:27:26,039 --> 00:27:29,039
because there were a schism. But I could be wrong

502
00:27:29,079 --> 00:27:29,440
about that.

503
00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: Well, I was recently reading in this book about this

504
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:36,480
whole topic, and he labeled novation In like the opening prelude,

505
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,960
as someone who was considered heretical for some things. But

506
00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:42,160
I have seen scholars say no, he did a firm

507
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,680
Trinitarian theology. So that's something I want to go back

508
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:45,119
and check.

509
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: One thing I would add is that to a lot

510
00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:50,680
of the quotes when you see people like Jake or

511
00:27:50,759 --> 00:27:53,680
Daniel when they come to these texts and the church fathers,

512
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,039
they'll take quotes about the eternal generation of the sun

513
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,839
and assume that that means that there's a temporal causation.

514
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,880
So they actually make a lot of the same moves

515
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,160
that the Aryans made at this time, or Paul of Samasada,

516
00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:10,400
who many of these church fathers that were going to

517
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,599
look at. That's who they're responding against. And so the

518
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,799
irony is that they're making the very arguments of the

519
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,079
Unitarians and the Arians and Paul Samasada that the Church

520
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,680
fathers are arguing against, and they're arguing that the church

521
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,440
fathers are arguing their position of Unitarianism, which is ironic.

522
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: All right, So if you want to share your screen now,

523
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,359
we can start going through some of these church fathers.

524
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,799
Because Jake Dinages bring up Justin Martyr, which, as we've shown,

525
00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:41,359
he's clearly Trinitarian. And that's just again, ladies and gentlemen,

526
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,960
the tip of the iceberg. Go through his second apology,

527
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,799
go through more of the first apology. You see very

528
00:28:46,839 --> 00:28:51,960
clearly him basically laying down Trinitarian theology for example. And

529
00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:55,240
one more quote in First Apology, chapter sixty one, he says,

530
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,599
for in this name of God, the Father and Lord

531
00:28:57,599 --> 00:28:59,400
of the Universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and

532
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,680
of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing of water,

533
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,160
talking about baptism Trinitarian baptism formula in the First Apology.

534
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,000
But if you want to get your screen up here, Jay,

535
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,319
I'll let you go through some of these other church fathers.

536
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,599
Speaker 1: Sure now remember and if I forgot one of the

537
00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:16,480
people who listed, remind me he said that Aaron as

538
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:19,039
Tertollian justin Marty don't teach trinity. Did he listen to

539
00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:19,680
anybody else?

540
00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: I don't recall him listening any of the us. I'll

541
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:23,799
double check while you're going through this.

542
00:29:24,759 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

543
00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: So one thing I would say too to audience is

544
00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:35,400
keep in mind that the word trinity or trenitas, which

545
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,680
I think there's some debate as to whether Tertullian or

546
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,640
one of the other church fathers use the first maybe

547
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,880
Theophilis I can't remember, but most people think it was

548
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,480
Ertillian that used it first. But there's some debate about

549
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:48,519
the dating of like Tertullian's text. But most of these texts,

550
00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:50,000
as we said that we're going to go through here,

551
00:29:50,039 --> 00:29:53,279
they're all dated prior to Nicea. I'll have one reference

552
00:29:53,319 --> 00:29:55,960
that's posting ICEA, and I'll explain why that's there. But

553
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,400
they're not in chronological order. They're just in the order

554
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,440
that I went through and found them. When I first

555
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,160
got my church Father set back in the day, I

556
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,400
remember thinking when the cheft said the first volume or two,

557
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,160
it has all these weird guys I'd never heard of,

558
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,319
because I'd heard of Jerome, and I'd heard of Augustine,

559
00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:16,920
and I've heard of Ambrose and Basil, that you've got

560
00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:20,039
this list of all these guys that some of them

561
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:22,559
are kind of wacky, some of them are good. We're

562
00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:25,039
solid for their time. But I never really understood, well,

563
00:30:25,079 --> 00:30:29,000
why are these characters in here? Now I understand years later,

564
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,000
you know a lot of apologetics and debate. It's because

565
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,920
so many of these people in this early period are

566
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,039
going to be attesting to the controversial doctrines that we're

567
00:30:40,079 --> 00:30:43,200
talking about today. Controversial not for Christians but for the

568
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,200
you know, Muslims of people that take issue with it.

569
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,319
So we're going to have a lot of people that

570
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:49,720
you haven't heard of, but they're figures that are very

571
00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:53,960
valuable for their historical witness, and sometimes a sort of

572
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,240
historical witness, by the way, does not mean that they're

573
00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:59,559
all correct, that they're all infallible, or that they we

574
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:02,599
don't believe the Church fathers are infallible, or that they

575
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,680
didn't make theological mistakes at times. And some of these

576
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:10,400
people even ended up deviating and becoming heterodox, like Tatian

577
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:14,559
or even a Tertullian himself ended up going outside of

578
00:31:14,839 --> 00:31:17,839
the Church of his time and becoming a Montanist. So

579
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:20,480
the first quote we'll look at here.

580
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, is I thank you actually put your screen back

581
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,279
in a shark. While you do that, I do want

582
00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:27,440
to put up this super chat. I think you'll appreciate this. Jay,

583
00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:30,559
thank you for the very generous super chest spaghetti. Sam, Hey,

584
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:32,839
j and Michael, thank you everything you guys do. You

585
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,880
were both instrumental in my journey to Christ from Islam.

586
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,200
So it's exciting to see you brothers working on a

587
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,240
project together being God bless you, bless you both, enstrengthen

588
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:43,759
you and your work. Really appreciate that, Sam, and Yeah,

589
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:45,680
I'm really glad to be working with Jay again, I

590
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,559
think we have more in agreement, and I want to

591
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:48,319
celebrate that.

592
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: Okay, can we see that quote there?

593
00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: Yep, they got right there.

594
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,039
Speaker 1: So our first quote here is from Athenagoras, and this

595
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,839
is late second century, and this is from the doctor

596
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,200
a document called the Plea, and this is kind of

597
00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:08,119
an early apologetic defense work. And you'll notice that he

598
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,359
states again this is this is very early late second century,

599
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,279
so one eighties, one nineties. We are not atheists. In fact,

600
00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:19,400
we acknowledge one God, but we also acknowledge, as he

601
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,839
says here, the logos from the God, and that logos

602
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,559
is also united to that third person, the Holy Ghost.

603
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,119
And so this is just a great I'm not going

604
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,160
to read this whole passage, but you know you'll see

605
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,720
here that we have the trinitarian formula of worshiping Father,

606
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,440
Son and Holy Ghost. So athenagoras is a is an

607
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,279
excellent attestation here.

608
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,599
Speaker 2: You know what's you know, it's funny, Jay Is. I

609
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,119
literally have that quote pulled up just in case you

610
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,960
didn't have it. I'm like, that was like the first.

611
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,319
Speaker 1: One I was going to go to this perfect Yeah,

612
00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:51,799
I mean, and I want to remind you right too,

613
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:56,680
Remember this is not exhausted. So uh, there's like like Michael.

614
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,559
So there's so many of these that you really have

615
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,640
to kind of, you know, sus them out. So let's

616
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,160
go to the next one here, Number two. This is

617
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,279
from the Apology of Saint Aristites, and he's another second

618
00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:12,359
century church father. And what you'll notice about this text

619
00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:15,200
is that we don't just find the reference to the

620
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,640
deed to Christ, but you'll notice also virgin birth and

621
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,519
the incarnation of the son of God. So the Christians

622
00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:25,640
and trace the beginning of the religion from Jesus the Messiah.

623
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,880
He is named Son of God most hot and it

624
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,720
has said that God came down from heaven. So notice

625
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,720
he is referred to as fully divine, and from a

626
00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,839
Hebrew virgin he clothes himself with flesh. So notice this

627
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,599
is a fully orthodox confession of the incarnation, virgin birth,

628
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,240
human nature, and that he's fully divine. And again that

629
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,880
is from the Apology of Saint Aristites. So the next

630
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,559
quote I'll pull up here is number three, and this

631
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,359
is from the late two hundreds. The writer called our Nobius,

632
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,960
and our Nobius writes that it is agreed that Christ

633
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,639
performed all those miracles, which he wrought without any aid

634
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:12,199
from external things, without the observance of any ceremonies, without

635
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,920
any definite motive procedure, but solely by the inherent might

636
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,400
of his authority, as was the proper duty of the

637
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,599
True God. And so the miracles of Christ in this

638
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:26,760
early apologetic treatise late two hundreds, as you can see here,

639
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,800
the miracles, according to him, attest to the divine status

640
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,480
of the Son of God. Now, not every quote, by

641
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,360
the way, is necessarily going to be trinitarian. In fact

642
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,159
that sometimes we'll see a writer in a couple of

643
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,039
paragraphs he might mention Father and Son, and then a

644
00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:45,599
little bit down in the work he'll mention, for example,

645
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,840
the Holy Spirit. And it's just like Michael said, we

646
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,599
do that because we want to see the full context.

647
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,400
You know, if we just quote mind and we found

648
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,480
for example, the church father saying, you know, as to say,

649
00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:00,519
many of the post Apostolic writers in their letters, like

650
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:03,599
Ignacious or Clement, you know, they might I think Ignacious,

651
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:07,320
for example, starts many letters like you know, from God,

652
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,480
our Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

653
00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:11,840
And you might say, oh, well, he didn't mention Holy Spirit,

654
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,440
So he doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit. Well, no,

655
00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:16,440
if you go down later in the letter, he does.

656
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:18,920
So it's not like there's some law that you have

657
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,199
to mention, you know, father and son together in spirit altogether,

658
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,159
or else you don't believe in the trinity. These are

659
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:27,199
just kind of, you know, kind of silly arguments that

660
00:35:28,039 --> 00:35:31,000
people pull up. So the next one, number four, this

661
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,800
is Saint Afrea the Persian, and this is late two hundreds,

662
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,360
and you'll notice that he talks about the unbelief of

663
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,239
Jews and Gentiles, and then he says that Exodustry, I

664
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,000
am God, there is none beside me. You shall worship

665
00:35:46,039 --> 00:35:50,000
no other God. And then he says, if you are,

666
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,199
you are opposing God, and that you call a man God.

667
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,800
Concerning these things, as far as I can tell, I

668
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,599
will instruct you about them, that while we grant that

669
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,719
he is a man, Christ is fully man, and while

670
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,880
we honor him and we call him God and Lord,

671
00:36:05,119 --> 00:36:08,559
yet not in any novel fashion. In fact, Jesus our Lord,

672
00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:11,880
is God, the Son of God, the King, the King's son,

673
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,039
the light of light. And of course, in I think

674
00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:18,199
the Orthodox Church, Saint Aufaret has a pretty famous role.

675
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,400
He's very highly regarded. And so you'll notice here again

676
00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:29,760
just a sampling from his Persian work, the Demonstrations, and

677
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,880
so we'll move on to the next one. Here number five.

678
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,280
This is the very famous church father that was the

679
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,199
tutor and the mentor to Athenasius. So you might have

680
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,519
heard of ath Natius and Anthonaians because he's sort of

681
00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:47,440
the preeminent church father at the Council of Nicea. But

682
00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:50,400
his mentor prior to Nicia in the two hundreds was

683
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,760
Saint Alexander of Alexandria. Now Alexander in the two hundreds

684
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,480
famously argued that if God is an eternal father, then

685
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:01,159
by necessity he must have an eternal son if the

686
00:37:01,159 --> 00:37:03,800
word father is to mean anything. And this is an

687
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:10,760
argument that Saint Athanasius picks up in his Trinitarian apologetics.

688
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,280
But you'll notice he says that here the deity of

689
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,639
Christ brings us to what here the knowledge of the Trinity.

690
00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:24,639
So again pre Nicea, pre Athenatious, this is mid two hundreds,

691
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,079
Saint Alexander of Alexandria that that the incarnation of Christ

692
00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:33,920
brings us to the knowledge of the Trinity. So and

693
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,400
again remember that not every quote has to have Trinity present,

694
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:42,480
because when you read these writings, and in fact, Alexander

695
00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:46,079
is kind of the you could argue he's the father

696
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,360
of the father of Nicia, and so the trinitarian apologetics

697
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,480
that Athanasius argues so forcefully in all of his writings

698
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:57,360
is really just from his mentor Alexander again from the

699
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,639
mid two hundreds. Next one is This one's a little odd,

700
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:03,480
but I thought it was worth putting in here. No

701
00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:05,280
excuse me, not this one. I'm thinking of the Shepherd

702
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,639
of Farmis they epistol at barnabas here in chapter This

703
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,639
is I think chapter twelve, and it notes the deity

704
00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:13,480
of Christ. And this is believed to have been written

705
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,320
anywhere from between seventy to one a d. But you'll

706
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,320
notice here all three persons are referenced. We have a

707
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,159
reference to Christ here as that Moses is a type

708
00:38:24,159 --> 00:38:27,800
of Christ. And then we have the phrases in those

709
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,800
famous Messianic prophecies that we've made so much use of

710
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,719
over the years against Muslims and in the podcast that

711
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,480
we've done with people like Sam Schaman. We notice that

712
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,639
the personal spirit speaks here, and this is chapter twelve.

713
00:38:41,679 --> 00:38:44,800
I think there's also a chapter six which says the

714
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,440
same thing. But you'll notice that the Lord sits at

715
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,599
my right hand. This is, of course, referring to the

716
00:38:50,639 --> 00:38:53,920
ascension of Christ this society. Many times in the New

717
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,440
Testament about Christ's whenty of sins. Right sit around all

718
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,480
Maker's enemies your footstool. So behold how David calls him

719
00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:06,079
Lord and Son of God. And then there was a

720
00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:08,960
I thought the Holy Spirit was mentioned in here. Somewhere

721
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,679
does it not mention the spirit. Maybe holy Spirit is

722
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,840
mentioned in the other paragraph, but it does note that

723
00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:22,760
it uses the reference, for example of Colossians that all

724
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,360
things are to him for him. So this is another

725
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,199
deity passage pointing out the deed of Christ. So let's

726
00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:31,000
move on to the next one here, and I'm number seven.

727
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,280
This is a lesser known fragment of a writer around

728
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,000
the year two hundred named Caius. And Caius has cided

729
00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:44,440
in Eusebius, And so this two hundred era fragment gives

730
00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:49,639
attestation to the deity of Christ. The apostles themselves received

731
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:52,280
and taught the things which these men now maintain. So

732
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,760
here we have mid It is about two hundred and

733
00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:01,119
the bishopric, the apostolic succession that goes from thirteenth in Rome,

734
00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:04,400
from Peter to his successors up Rhinus in the day

735
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,199
of Caius writing this, And that's relevant too, because you'll

736
00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:12,239
notice that Jake made the comment that there's not apostolic succession,

737
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,559
but here we have a reference in the Fragment of Caius.

738
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,800
But you'll also notice, I think in the next section

739
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,880
if you if you go to the Fragment of Caius

740
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,360
and you scroll down to chapter three. I thought I

741
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,159
had that one on here. Maybe I didn't clip that one,

742
00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:33,840
but chapter three of Caius mentions the deity of the

743
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,840
Holy Spirit as well. I don't know if I should

744
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,039
pull that up or not. Let me see that, let

745
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:40,760
me go, Yeah, you can pull real quick.

746
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 2: I just want to say, notice, like how many Like

747
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,960
we're just thinking, like Jays remembering, oh yeah, this one

748
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,800
in chapter three, Oh yeah, this other guy, because there's

749
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,119
just so much less gentlemen. Every week, I attend an

750
00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:56,360
evening prayer service and we always sing the foss Hilaroon.

751
00:40:57,159 --> 00:40:59,360
It's a very old hymn. I looked it up. Scholars

752
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,519
dated to basically they think the Diocletian persecution, so pre

753
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,480
Nicea around basically the end of the third century, turn

754
00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:09,760
of the fourth century, what do we say in the

755
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,440
foss Hilaron We praise God Father's son and Holy Spirit

756
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,440
right then and there, pre nice and early him. Saint

757
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,079
Basil says it was a long standing tradition by the

758
00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:24,639
time he came onto the scene. So there's a there's

759
00:41:24,679 --> 00:41:27,320
another just another phrase I just thought off off the

760
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,079
top of my head, thinking of just another one. There's

761
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:31,000
so many here.

762
00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: So here we remember so chapter one here mentions the

763
00:41:38,519 --> 00:41:41,360
deity of Christ, the word Christ, the Word of God.

764
00:41:42,199 --> 00:41:49,119
And then when we scroll down to three, you have

765
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,280
the reference to the dictated by the Holy Spirit. Now

766
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,320
he's talking about certain groups that don't believe this, but

767
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,159
he's saying that they think themselves why than the Holy Spirit,

768
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:04,440
because they don't believe that the Holy Spirit spoke and

769
00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:06,719
inspired the scriptures. So, in other words, we have a

770
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,039
reference to the personhood and agency of the Holy Spirit,

771
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:13,880
and so the Holy Spirit is not a force. Again,

772
00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:16,920
when we read the whole context of these fathers, we

773
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,320
find them teaching exactly what we say. Let's move on

774
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,639
to number eight. This is probably well known to a

775
00:42:23,679 --> 00:42:26,320
lot of people. This is the letter of Saint Clement

776
00:42:26,639 --> 00:42:29,800
of Rome to the Corinthians. And you'll notice here in

777
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,519
chapter forty two, the apostles preach the Gospel to us

778
00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:35,920
from the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, from God. Christ

779
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:38,719
was therefore sent forth by God by the Appointments, in

780
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,320
order the way accorded will of God, having never seved

781
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,400
these orders, fully assured by the Resurrection, and established in

782
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,440
the Word of God, with the full assurance of the

783
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,199
Holy Spirit. So we have Father, Son and Holy Spirit there.

784
00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:52,960
But that's not the only quote. We also want to look.

785
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,679
Speaker 2: At exactly, First Clement or Second Clement.

786
00:42:58,199 --> 00:43:01,039
Speaker 1: It's I'm sorry, it's the letter of Clement to the Corinthians.

787
00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:04,400
So let me see. I can pull it up over

788
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:15,039
here if we need to. It's the first letter. And

789
00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:19,599
because New Advent was kind of going with the line

790
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:23,000
of reasoning that the rest of them are potentially spurious,

791
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:25,239
I just I just stuck to the first epistle.

792
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:28,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I will say about the Second Epistle,

793
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:31,039
though even a lot of scholars don't think Clemen actually

794
00:43:31,039 --> 00:43:33,719
wrote that. However, they still date it to the second

795
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,679
century exactly. And it's again it calls Jesus God.

796
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:40,519
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's that's a great point. Yet even the

797
00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:43,519
even the a lot of the pseudopigrapha and sort of

798
00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:46,559
the you know, doubted text from this period as well,

799
00:43:47,039 --> 00:43:49,559
back up a lot of what we're saying. I just

800
00:43:49,679 --> 00:43:51,800
I just tended to focus on the ones that were

801
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,639
less controversial, but you're you're right that they also make

802
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,119
that same point now here, and I think see forty

803
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:03,679
twenty six is the other great passage where we have

804
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,119
he says that you are the elect of God. Why

805
00:44:09,159 --> 00:44:12,320
are there strives, tumult schisms? Have we not all one

806
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,480
God in Christ? Is there not one spirit of grace

807
00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:17,719
poured out upon us all? And not one calling in Christ?

808
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,920
Do we do not remember divide the members of Christ?

809
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:25,519
But you'll notice so between forty two and forty six

810
00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:27,960
you have the reference to the deed, to Christ and

811
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,239
to the Holy Spirit, and thus all three persons referred

812
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:37,400
to as divine and you could say triadic basically. Yeah,

813
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,039
there's the rest of that one. So we'll move on

814
00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:46,239
now to number ten. This is an interesting one because

815
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,639
a lot of people aren't familiar with He was actually

816
00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:52,320
the Bishop of Rome in the mid two hundreds is

817
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,159
the Satdynysius of Rome, and he actually wrote this is

818
00:44:55,159 --> 00:44:57,920
really important because he wrote a treat us at that

819
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,639
time against the Sibelians, much like Tertullian had written against

820
00:45:01,679 --> 00:45:04,519
the Sibelians. And so any of the treatises against the

821
00:45:04,559 --> 00:45:08,440
Sibelians in this pre Nicene period are crucial because they're

822
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,960
some of the most forceful and consistent Trinitarian theological argumentation.

823
00:45:13,519 --> 00:45:16,119
And so you'll notice in this passage against the Sibelians

824
00:45:16,159 --> 00:45:20,760
from Sat Dinysius of Rome again two hundreds, it would

825
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,000
truly be unjust a dispute against those that divide and

826
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:27,199
rind the monarchy. He's talking about the monarchy of God

827
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,000
the Father and in the Church of God, as we're

828
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,280
into three powers and distinct substances. Now, he's saying that

829
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,840
if you split God into three distinct substances in the

830
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,079
sense of tritheism, he's calling that tritheism, and then that

831
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,400
three deities, you would destroy the Trinity. So he's not

832
00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:50,000
saying that he's a modalist. He's speaking against tritheists. But

833
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:52,480
he goes on to say that those who pregiatis the

834
00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:55,960
Word of God among you, so to speak, are opposed

835
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,719
to the opinion of Sibelius. Now this is important because

836
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:04,719
remember Sabellian is a modalist, and modalists essentially teach Unitarianism,

837
00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:08,760
and so it's not absolutely identical to the Muslim view

838
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,719
of God, but it's a version of Unitarianism. Where As

839
00:46:13,079 --> 00:46:16,679
probably everybody knows Sibelius and his followers, there was more

840
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,880
radical guys like Praxyis and the others. They taught that

841
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,760
the names Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were just masks

842
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,000
or names for an absolutely simple Unitarian God. So notice

843
00:46:28,039 --> 00:46:32,039
that these bishops, in this case the Bishop of Rome,

844
00:46:32,199 --> 00:46:34,360
and we'll see later there's also this also occurs with

845
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,880
the Bishop of Alexandria at this time, are explicitly rejecting,

846
00:46:38,079 --> 00:46:41,119
rejecting the Unitarian argumentation. That was the very thing that

847
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,119
Jake said. Supposedly, these church fathers of this time period

848
00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:49,519
were Unitarian developing a Trinitarian or tritheistic God. According to

849
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:52,480
Jake's argument, that's not what's going on here. In fact,

850
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,400
he says that as he defines the Cibelian position, he

851
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,400
says that the Son is the Father, and the Father

852
00:46:58,519 --> 00:47:03,119
is at the Son. They the unity into three different substances.

853
00:47:03,199 --> 00:47:07,639
Absolutely separated from one another, and he says that it

854
00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:10,280
is essential that the divine words should be united to

855
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,679
the God of all, and that the Holy Spirit should

856
00:47:12,679 --> 00:47:15,840
abide and dwell in God, and that the Divine Trinity

857
00:47:16,159 --> 00:47:20,159
should be reduced and gathered into one. So he's talking

858
00:47:20,159 --> 00:47:22,519
about the errors of the civilians, and he's saying that

859
00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:26,440
the correct view that the Church of Rome at this

860
00:47:26,519 --> 00:47:32,679
time holds is the Trinitarian confession, as for indeed rightly

861
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,760
know that the Trinity is declared in the Divine Scripture.

862
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,679
So here you have a second, a two hundreds arabishop

863
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,880
of Rome confessing that the Trinity is the doctrine of

864
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,719
the scriptures. He's not arguing this from Greek philosophy. He

865
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,880
believes that this is an exegetical argument. And many of

866
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,280
the church fathers that you'll notice this is another important point.

867
00:47:54,199 --> 00:47:57,239
The church fathers are using the same ext of Jesus

868
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,119
we do when they cite the texts. They're citing the

869
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:03,079
text that we cite. They're citing the text that we

870
00:48:03,159 --> 00:48:07,000
cite that they believe teaches the Trinity. And they are

871
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,440
fully aware that it doesn't use the word of trinity

872
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,320
because it doesn't have to. The fathers of this period.

873
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,960
Ectody of the scripture is the exact same way that

874
00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:17,039
we do. This one, I think is written one of

875
00:48:17,079 --> 00:48:19,599
the really strong ones, but it's not the only one.

876
00:48:19,599 --> 00:48:25,039
So when we move on to another quote, I think

877
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:31,639
this is also Dionysia. This is Dionysius Hope to Rome

878
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,320
writing to bishops six Us in his epistle, and he

879
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:44,880
says that the he's talking about the heresy of certain

880
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,920
groups that would baptize and rebaptized in weird ways. Talks

881
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,320
about it again the Cibellian heretics. You notice here that's

882
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,039
the modalist Unitarians of that time. For since the doctrine

883
00:48:55,039 --> 00:48:57,800
which lately says been foot set foot in May the

884
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,519
city of Metabolis, or full blashing against Almighty God and

885
00:49:02,519 --> 00:49:04,760
the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, full unbelieved towards

886
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,039
the only begotten Son and the firstborn of every creature,

887
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:10,760
the word made man. So here we have John Wonn's

888
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,760
logos theology, which takes away the perception of the Holy Spirit.

889
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,960
So here you have again trinitarian confession from Pope Dionysius

890
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,960
of Rome. Next one, this one is a little weird,

891
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,440
but I'm including it because it could potent you could

892
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:31,000
possibly read it in a correct way. Is also possible

893
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,800
that it might be read in a heterodox way because

894
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,000
the language is a little ambiguous. But I'm including it

895
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:41,199
just because it is an early reference in the Shepherd

896
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:47,400
of Hermes to the deity of Christ and the incarnation.

897
00:49:48,199 --> 00:49:51,039
So although his terminology is a little ambiguous here he

898
00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:55,800
does you could read this as the Holy Spirit basically

899
00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:00,199
deifying the flesh that the Son of God assumed. And

900
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:05,599
so Shepard Furmas again dated very early in this like

901
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,079
around believes to be around one hundred or ninety one hundred.

902
00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:09,880
You know, I can't remember.

903
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 2: To ninety one hundred. I think it's would be after

904
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,039
the Dedcate, but yeah, it would be ninety one hundred

905
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:16,960
sometime around there.

906
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: So you'll notice that a lot of this, what it's

907
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:24,880
talking about is the Holy Spirit's relationship to the flesh

908
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:29,320
that Christ took on, right, And it's talking about that

909
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:34,320
flesh being in some way partaking of the Holy Spirit

910
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:39,000
and being a tabernacle within which the Holy Spirit can

911
00:50:39,079 --> 00:50:42,559
dwell as you see here. But it does include this

912
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:47,440
notion of the deity of Christ in this triadic relationship

913
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,840
between Father Son and Spirit. So it is an early

914
00:50:50,599 --> 00:50:56,639
attestation to the Triadic Confession. So next one up is,

915
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,679
let's see thirteen.

916
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: I don't see at thirteen.

917
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: I think this is supposed to be thirteen. Let's see

918
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:10,000
if this is this is ignacious and so this is fourteen.

919
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:12,480
So I think the last two we're just there's another

920
00:51:12,559 --> 00:51:15,280
one that I forgot to. I know what it is.

921
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:24,000
Thirteen is a discussion of Hippolitists of Rome on the

922
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:27,679
Holy Theophany. And this is relevant because Holy Theophany, of course,

923
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,960
is you know, in the Orthodox Church, it's a feast,

924
00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:33,800
a very early feast. It's a feast here in Rome

925
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,719
as well in the early two hundreds, and Hippologists also

926
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,039
was a controversial Bishop of Rome, but he ended up

927
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,440
being in our view as saint, so he ended up

928
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,039
on the good side of things. And his discourse on

929
00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:49,960
the Theophany here, which is the feast of Christ baptism.

930
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,800
If you don't know, the church is always seen, I'm

931
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,239
talking about you in the audience. If you don't know,

932
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,400
the Theophany is really a manifestation of the Divine So

933
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,719
when we talked about the Old Testament Angel the Lord appearing,

934
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,119
you know, the cloud, the fire. We believe in the

935
00:52:04,199 --> 00:52:07,960
Orthodox Church those are divine manifestations of God in time

936
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,159
and space, particularly the second person of the God had

937
00:52:10,159 --> 00:52:12,280
So we don't think that it's, you know, the person

938
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,519
of the Father. It is explicitly the person of the Son.

939
00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:18,199
As Jesus argues in John five to the Pharisees, no

940
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,639
man sees God at any time. But he says by

941
00:52:21,639 --> 00:52:24,199
implication to the Pharisees there that the Son of Man

942
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,239
was basically I was the one basically talking to Moses

943
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,320
and talking to Abraham. And so you'll notice there that

944
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,480
the feast of theoteny. In this this brief homily, here

945
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:40,159
is an argumentation proving the not just the deity of

946
00:52:40,159 --> 00:52:44,079
the Son and his is a divine the divinity of

947
00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:47,880
the Son becoming a carnate, but also the triadic confession

948
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,800
that the Holy Spirit is necessary when we do the

949
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,840
baptismal confession, right, we baptize the name of the Father's

950
00:52:54,840 --> 00:53:04,320
son in the Holy Spirit. This early early uh homily

951
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,320
on on the Theophany is really making the Trinitarian argumentation

952
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,400
that we would make again in two hundreds.

953
00:53:11,639 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 2: So that was also in apologies a Roman reputation of

954
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,280
all heresies. Chapter ten, he says, the word alone of

955
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,960
this God is from God himself, wherefoth also the word

956
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,239
is God being the being of God. So there's another

957
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:26,280
early quote from the policy.

958
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, there's there's a lot in Apologist has

959
00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:30,960
quite a bit. He's also got a commentary on Daniel,

960
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,239
which is pretty fascinating. There's all kinds of references to

961
00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:39,599
the Messantic prophecies and how they're fulfilled in the deed

962
00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:41,840
of Christ and his writings. But yeah, I feel free

963
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,480
to bust in with anything that I've missed or that

964
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:47,679
you think should be mentioned. Next up, I think this,

965
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,039
so this is ignacious of anion. These are pretty well known.

966
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:56,039
These are dated anywhere from one hundred fifty in terms

967
00:53:56,039 --> 00:54:00,079
of the manuscripts that are present. And let's see the

968
00:54:00,119 --> 00:54:04,679
first one here fourteen. Will notice that he says, greetings

969
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,920
in you know the God, the Father, and our Lord

970
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,880
Jesus Christ. And then are much beloved God, Jesus Savior,

971
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,079
the followers of God, the Blood of God. So we're

972
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:22,639
talking about the incarnate Christ here. And then companion to

973
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:29,039
this quote is the next quote here, which I think, yeah,

974
00:54:29,039 --> 00:54:31,119
this is the same letter, or this might be to

975
00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:36,079
the Magnesians, but he says for it the habit of

976
00:54:36,079 --> 00:54:38,239
carrying about the name of Jesus Christ in wicked guile,

977
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,159
somewhere in the habit of doing this while they practice

978
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,760
unworthy of God. And then he goes on to say

979
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,239
that there is one physician who is possessed of flesh

980
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,760
and spirit and not made God, existing in the flesh

981
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,360
both of Mary and of God, passable and then impassable,

982
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,719
our Lord Jesus Christ. Again clearly clear's day called God.

983
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,119
And I think also in this previous one to the Ephesians,

984
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:05,400
if you go down to chapters four and five, he

985
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:10,039
references the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit as well.

986
00:55:10,119 --> 00:55:11,239
Let me make sure if that's right.

987
00:55:18,039 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 2: Trying to think if I wrote anything down on Ignacious,

988
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,920
I have stuff on the dedicate. We can get too later.

989
00:55:22,039 --> 00:55:24,639
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I think I did. I have one

990
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,599
one dedicate quote here, But so I think I have

991
00:55:28,679 --> 00:55:32,440
this wrong, that I'm actually talking. It's actually not Ignacious

992
00:55:32,639 --> 00:55:35,760
four and five. I think it's the discourse on Theophany

993
00:55:36,079 --> 00:55:38,960
has a reference to the Holy Spirit. Anyway, I'll move

994
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,960
on past that to the next one in my list.

995
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 2: So just so you guys can see there is so much,

996
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,679
and sometimes he's confusing because there's just so much to

997
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,199
juggle when it comes to cult from the Church fathers.

998
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,239
To say we don't have this trinitarian theology and the

999
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,840
Church is like ignoring an embarrassment of riches.

1000
00:55:56,519 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: That we have exactly sixteen and this is an ignacious

1001
00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:04,920
letter to the Magnesians. And you'll notice the triad present

1002
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:06,960
here as well. Study therefore to be establishing the doctions

1003
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:11,199
that were in the Apostles, and so that so all things,

1004
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,480
whenever you do, may prospering flesh and spirit, and faith

1005
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,239
and love in the Son and the Father, and in

1006
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,199
the Spirit the beginning in the end uh. And again

1007
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:23,400
he says, Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the

1008
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,280
flash Apostles, to the Father and to the Spirit. So

1009
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,519
again this is very early letter to the Magnesians, a

1010
00:56:29,599 --> 00:56:34,079
clear triadic reference. Now the ones in Irenaeus, there's so

1011
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,000
many that I just kind of have it. Yeah, right,

1012
00:56:37,119 --> 00:56:38,960
So when we get to Arnaeus, which is like one

1013
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,239
ad a d when he does against heresies.

1014
00:56:42,599 --> 00:56:44,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, when Jake brought up Aaronaeus, I was like, are

1015
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,119
you kidding? That?

1016
00:56:46,199 --> 00:56:49,199
Speaker 1: One was really absurd because first of all, you know,

1017
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:52,280
against Heresies is like five or six hundred pages. The

1018
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,519
first two or three hundred pages is him recounting all

1019
00:56:55,559 --> 00:56:58,599
the gnostic sects of that time and all the variations

1020
00:56:58,599 --> 00:57:01,559
of them. And then by about books four and five

1021
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:05,960
and six he gets into you know, strict theology, and

1022
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,360
so you'll notice God the Father in his word. So

1023
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,400
here we have the deity of Christ. But again there's

1024
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:14,199
so many of these. So this is the example I

1025
00:57:14,199 --> 00:57:16,719
have here is five eighteen. But I'll just list a

1026
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,119
few for you if you want to go. Book two

1027
00:57:19,199 --> 00:57:22,559
point one refers to the monarchia of the Father. Book

1028
00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:27,480
three one and two refers to the triadic personal reality

1029
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,960
of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Book five eight refers

1030
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,960
to the deity and divinity of the Holy Spirit. Book

1031
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,360
five eighteen refers to the deity of Christ. And so

1032
00:57:37,559 --> 00:57:42,039
there's just really too many in urinaeusis against heresies, But

1033
00:57:42,159 --> 00:57:44,480
you can find those pretty easily if you just start

1034
00:57:44,519 --> 00:57:49,960
looking through them. Next one is another really early witness.

1035
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:55,360
This is a fragment from one eighty one eighty a d.

1036
00:57:56,079 --> 00:57:58,960
And this is the epistle to Aristides. Actually I think

1037
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,480
it's a full brief epistle, but he says, the child

1038
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:06,559
leaped and left at our caresses words. And when you

1039
00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:09,280
have bidden the mother farewell, he had shown us honor.

1040
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,639
We testified as who he is a divine leader. And

1041
00:58:12,679 --> 00:58:14,679
then he goes on to say that we made speed

1042
00:58:14,719 --> 00:58:17,119
to depart in all earnestness. We reported to erusalm all

1043
00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:19,079
that we've seen. Behold then the great things that have

1044
00:58:19,119 --> 00:58:22,760
totally regarding Christ, Christ, our Savior, who is may known

1045
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:24,639
to God and man. And so this is just an

1046
00:58:24,719 --> 00:58:29,679
early reference to the divine leader of the person of Christ.

1047
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:35,760
In this Julius Africanus of one eight a d. Nineteen

1048
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:40,639
is excuse me, this is this is the fragment. This

1049
00:58:40,679 --> 00:58:43,000
is Fragment nineteen. We don't know who this is. It's

1050
00:58:43,039 --> 00:58:45,360
just a fragment from this time period. It might be

1051
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,639
Julius Africanist, I'm not sure. But the fragment says, for

1052
00:58:49,719 --> 00:58:51,960
we know that the measure of these words are not ignorant,

1053
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:53,760
grace and faith giving, thanks to the Father who has

1054
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,079
bestowed hon us his creatures, and the Savior of all,

1055
00:58:57,119 --> 00:58:59,920
to whom be glory majesty with the Holy Spirit. Again

1056
00:59:00,719 --> 00:59:06,320
very early. You can find this on here.

1057
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a this is a great website.

1058
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:13,079
It goes through so many of the letters and the

1059
00:59:13,119 --> 00:59:15,920
works of the Church fathers, and it's all it's all

1060
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,079
open access. You can just go check this stuff out,

1061
00:59:18,119 --> 00:59:21,000
and so yeah, we're using the site, so UK guys

1062
00:59:21,039 --> 00:59:23,000
can just go through some of this stuff if you

1063
00:59:23,119 --> 00:59:26,400
want and just see over and over again Church Father

1064
00:59:26,519 --> 00:59:30,440
for Church fault. You these Trinitarian formulas over and over again,

1065
00:59:30,719 --> 00:59:34,000
calling Jesus God, talking about the Holy Spirit or the

1066
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,119
Prophetic Spirit, talking about the monarchy of the Trinity. It's

1067
00:59:37,239 --> 00:59:37,960
all there.

1068
00:59:39,239 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: One of the earliest most important treatises for the doctor,

1069
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,280
the Trinity proper that in terms of its kind of

1070
00:59:46,519 --> 00:59:50,000
breadth and scope, is Tertullian's work written around one ninety,

1071
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,840
which is actually a large defense of the Trinity. So

1072
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,440
remember we're told by Jake and the Muslims that the

1073
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,400
Trinity doesn't exist prior to I See You. But they'll

1074
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,440
also turn out times to say that Tertillian invented the Trinity,

1075
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,400
which is also not true. But you'll notice in the

1076
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:09,639
book is called the Catholic Doctrine of the Trinity and Unity.

1077
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,679
This is against Praxius. And remember Praxius was an early

1078
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:18,119
radical Sabellian or modalist. So the very position that Jake

1079
01:00:18,159 --> 01:00:20,559
and these people are saying is true, this unitarian modalist

1080
01:00:20,599 --> 01:00:24,159
type of position, is actually the very thing that Tertullian's

1081
01:00:24,199 --> 01:00:28,400
against Praxius is arguing against. And they themselves even admit

1082
01:00:28,519 --> 01:00:30,599
this when they turn around half the time and say

1083
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,159
that Tertullian invented the Trinity, So it can't you can't

1084
01:00:34,159 --> 01:00:38,079
have it both ways. He's not an anti Trinitarian an atrinitarian,

1085
01:00:38,119 --> 01:00:43,599
and everybody knows that he's very important for the early development.

1086
01:00:44,719 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 2: With regards to Tertullians, sometimes Muslims will say, oh, this

1087
01:00:48,039 --> 01:00:51,599
just all came from Greek philosophy. Well, Tertullian was adamant

1088
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:54,199
against using Greek philosophy. He's famous for saying, what has

1089
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:54,840
Athens to.

1090
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: Do with Jerusalm? Yeah, he thought that, yeah, these two

1091
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:02,519
were really incompatible. Great points, So that the earliest systematic

1092
01:01:02,559 --> 01:01:07,320
defender of the trinity, exactly as you're saying, really says

1093
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:09,800
that it's nothing to do with philosophy, and he relies

1094
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:12,800
heavily on argumentation from Scripture, as do all of these

1095
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,719
church fathers at this time. Remember this is this is

1096
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,800
church fathers at this time doing exegesis the way we do, right,

1097
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,960
So they're not doing you notice, they don't do the

1098
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:26,800
Muslim apologetic of picking and choosing. They'll look at, Okay,

1099
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:30,639
if Jesus says, for example, that he's of the Father

1100
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,360
or the Father's greater, they'll also balance that out, as

1101
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:37,320
you saw with Michael using the later passages in justin

1102
01:01:37,639 --> 01:01:42,440
they balance out that those relationships between the persons. Okay,

1103
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:46,400
this next one is an early epistle in the mid

1104
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,760
two hundreds, but it's a product of an entire synod.

1105
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:52,000
And this is the product of the Synod of Antioch

1106
01:01:52,079 --> 01:01:55,639
in two seventy two, and it's the Epistle of Malchion.

1107
01:01:55,679 --> 01:01:59,199
And the reason that it's relevant is because oh wait,

1108
01:01:59,239 --> 01:02:01,639
excuse me, this is I gotta go back to you know,

1109
01:02:01,719 --> 01:02:06,239
this is it. Let me just pull it up from

1110
01:02:06,239 --> 01:02:06,760
over here.

1111
01:02:09,239 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no worries. I mean again, when we're going

1112
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,800
through church father guys, I mean they again, they did

1113
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,079
not have the gift to brevity. They go very long

1114
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:20,639
and very hard, and sometimes you're like, wait, where was that? Oh, yeah,

1115
01:02:20,639 --> 01:02:22,719
here it is. It's that kind of thing.

1116
01:02:23,039 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the Epistle of Malchion is a senator of Antioch.

1117
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:31,079
I guess Malcion is presumably Bishop of Antioch, and he

1118
01:02:31,719 --> 01:02:36,320
this two seventy two, again about fifty ish years before Nicea.

1119
01:02:37,639 --> 01:02:40,840
It's condemning Paul of Samasada. And Paul of Samasada was

1120
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,719
an early anti Trinitarian sort of radical you know, Arian,

1121
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:49,760
you could say proto Rian maybe, and Paul Samasoda railed

1122
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:53,840
against the deity of Christ. And this whole deposition from

1123
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,239
the Sinnet of Antioch is predicated on the deity of

1124
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:01,960
Christ to reject the Unitarian theory that Christ is just

1125
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,280
a man. So again, this is an anti Aryan anti

1126
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:10,239
Unitarian synod from two seventy two in Antioch. Okay, the

1127
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:15,159
next quote was from the Epistle to Diagnetus. This is

1128
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,960
dated one thirty a d. And we read here that

1129
01:03:19,119 --> 01:03:23,639
Jesus is God the Word made flesh. So again John

1130
01:03:23,719 --> 01:03:29,039
one theology. I think Malachi three isn't that the reference

1131
01:03:29,039 --> 01:03:32,519
to the peering of our great God of Yahweh. Doesn't

1132
01:03:32,559 --> 01:03:36,239
this say the day that Yahweh will appear? I might

1133
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:40,440
be wrong what MALOCHI three two is, but I think

1134
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:42,840
it's a it's a messy and prophecy that's being used here.

1135
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,960
But it also refers to the deed of Christ, but

1136
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,400
he says, they're not mere human mysteries. The trillion incomprehensible

1137
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:57,119
Word has established himself in our hearts, in their hearts,

1138
01:03:57,119 --> 01:03:59,960
the hearts of the believers. So again, how would he

1139
01:04:00,119 --> 01:04:03,159
do that if he wasn't fully divine? He you know,

1140
01:04:04,239 --> 01:04:07,800
a human person can't establish himself. A mere human man

1141
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,880
can establish himself in human hearts or some prophet. So

1142
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:14,280
again that's something a Muslim could not say. This one's

1143
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:21,480
really important because this one is let's see, this is

1144
01:04:21,519 --> 01:04:24,400
twenty three. Yeah, this is Saint Peter of Alexandra. So

1145
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,719
remember a lot of the two hundreds era theologians that

1146
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,880
would be very influential at the counts of Nicea. They're

1147
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,840
coming out of the Bishopric of Antioch, and this is

1148
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:40,360
what produces not just Alexander, but also Athanacious and one

1149
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:42,400
of the other bishops of Alexandria in the late two

1150
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:46,840
hundreds put down this really powerful argument here, and this

1151
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:51,719
is again he says, notice this, this doesn't just prove

1152
01:04:52,559 --> 01:04:57,480
trinitarian incarnational relations. But notice this amazing passage here where

1153
01:04:57,480 --> 01:04:59,880
he says that they came to the Church of the

1154
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:05,119
Most Blessed Mother of God ever virgin. That's the Theotokos

1155
01:05:05,239 --> 01:05:08,519
language that's going to be used two hundred years later

1156
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:13,800
by Saint Cyril and Ephesus. Cyril's just repeating his predecessor,

1157
01:05:14,199 --> 01:05:18,119
Saint Peter of Alexandria in the two hundreds, saying the

1158
01:05:18,159 --> 01:05:22,559
exact same phraseology mother of God. That means that Jesus

1159
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:26,920
is a divine person born of ever virgin Mary. Thus

1160
01:05:27,079 --> 01:05:31,199
Jesus is a divine He's the second person of the Godhead.

1161
01:05:31,239 --> 01:05:33,840
So that's a very very early two dred maybe one

1162
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,719
hundred and fifty years before Cyril or so, but two

1163
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:40,239
hundred years before Ephesus and Chalcedon. You have this amazing

1164
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:45,159
confession in the acts of Peter of Alexandria. Let's see,

1165
01:05:45,199 --> 01:05:51,760
I've got this here twenty four. This is the Polycarp

1166
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,639
the letter of Polycarp to the Philippians. This is dated

1167
01:05:54,679 --> 01:05:58,559
about one oh eight eight or eight somewhere in there.

1168
01:05:59,119 --> 01:06:01,679
And you'll notice that here we have this is a

1169
01:06:01,719 --> 01:06:04,880
pretty famous one. He says that may the God and Father,

1170
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,079
our Lord, Jesus Christ and Christ himself, who is Son

1171
01:06:07,119 --> 01:06:10,559
of God and eternal high priest. Again, you couldn't be

1172
01:06:10,599 --> 01:06:14,599
eternal high priest. If you weren't divine, no human person

1173
01:06:14,719 --> 01:06:18,480
is an eternal high priest too, because this is a

1174
01:06:18,519 --> 01:06:21,159
reference to Christ as the fulfillment of the order of

1175
01:06:21,199 --> 01:06:23,440
Melchisa Dek. Right, I will be make you a priest forever,

1176
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:26,239
recording the Order of Melchisedek. So again, this is a

1177
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:32,239
famous reference to the divinity of Christ in the polycarp

1178
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:34,599
to the Ephesians. And then the last one that I

1179
01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:38,599
had again, remember is just a sampling. This is a

1180
01:06:38,679 --> 01:06:40,159
little This is just a sampling.

1181
01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:42,719
Speaker 2: I got even more quotes we could use, but I mean,

1182
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,559
like there's just so much, ladies and gentlemen.

1183
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 1: This one I included just because even though it's a

1184
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:50,960
little bit after and I see it it's later on

1185
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,960
into three hundreds. This is the earliest full liturgy that

1186
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,760
we have. And this is relevant because this is the

1187
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,840
liturgy again in Alexandria, which was so for Nicia and

1188
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:03,760
the defense of the deity of Christ and eventure of

1189
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,599
the Trinity. Now keep in mind that the original Nicie

1190
01:07:06,599 --> 01:07:09,440
creed does include a reference to the Holy Spirit, contrary

1191
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,559
to what Bryce and Gray argued when we had our debate.

1192
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,800
So you know, when we read Athanasius and these other

1193
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,039
Church fathers. We've clearly seen many places where they do

1194
01:07:19,159 --> 01:07:21,440
refer to the person who the deity of the Holy Spirit,

1195
01:07:21,679 --> 01:07:23,599
because a lot of times people who are anti trinitarian

1196
01:07:23,639 --> 01:07:26,519
will say, okay, well, maybe the church fathers thought Jesus

1197
01:07:26,599 --> 01:07:28,960
and the Father were divine, but nobody thought that the

1198
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,119
Holy Spirit was divine at Nicea, which is simply not true.

1199
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,079
Athanasius in many many places in his writings refers to

1200
01:07:35,199 --> 01:07:38,239
do the Spirit. But this is the earliest liturgy, which

1201
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,320
is even more forceful because this means that all the

1202
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,800
churches that were in communion in the jurisdiction of Alexandria,

1203
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:46,679
and remember that's a pretty big prominent church. If you

1204
01:07:46,719 --> 01:07:51,960
look at Canon six of Nicea, it lists Rome, Alexandria,

1205
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,800
and Antioch and Canon six of Nicea as the three

1206
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,480
most preeminent sees in the church at that time. So

1207
01:07:58,559 --> 01:08:02,400
that means that a giant portion of churches and communion

1208
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,840
with Alexandria again confessing the deity of Christ, would be

1209
01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:09,599
using this divine liturgy of Saint Mark. So this would

1210
01:08:09,599 --> 01:08:13,400
be even more of a common profession where we have

1211
01:08:13,559 --> 01:08:16,680
again all kinds of references to the Deity of Christ,

1212
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:20,000
calling upon Christ to forgive our sins. You have the Trisagion,

1213
01:08:20,119 --> 01:08:24,119
you have the Triadic. You know, we don't just call

1214
01:08:24,199 --> 01:08:28,479
upon the Father. We call upon our Father and Son

1215
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:33,640
in Holy Spirit right here through you, Glory Power to

1216
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:37,600
all holy and life giving Spirit, now and forever. And

1217
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:39,680
then we have again this is very similar. If anybody

1218
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:41,520
has been to an Orthodox church, you'll notice this is

1219
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:43,880
very similar to the liturgy that we profess in the

1220
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,600
Orthodox churches. And then here you have the trisagion. Right.

1221
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:53,199
The trisagion is a Trinitarian prayer, Holy God, Holy Mighty,

1222
01:08:53,239 --> 01:08:56,479
Holy Immortal. That is a reference to the three persons

1223
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,920
of the triad in our theology, and all the feel

1224
01:09:00,039 --> 01:09:01,920
legions of this time, by the way, say the same thing.

1225
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:04,079
So it's not something that we're making up post hawk.

1226
01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:08,600
It's the theology of that time. Again, it's thoroughly trinitarian.

1227
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,039
It's not that long. If anybody wants, you can go read.

1228
01:09:11,119 --> 01:09:15,000
You have the Cherubic hymn also, which has a trinitarian

1229
01:09:15,119 --> 01:09:21,439
reference of Christ Holy Spirit. So again the universal Confession

1230
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:25,159
of the Church is in communion with one another at

1231
01:09:25,199 --> 01:09:29,359
this time. Right all what we call the Universal Catholic

1232
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:31,760
Church in the Empire at that time. I don't mean

1233
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:35,680
necessarily the Roman calolgy Church today, but the Catholic Church

1234
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:41,439
in its confession of that time was clearly confessing trinitarian

1235
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:47,079
relationships that we confess today. The Orthodox faith is confessed

1236
01:09:47,399 --> 01:09:50,760
the true right believing faith, and Christ is our high

1237
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,199
priests in Christ is the one who heals us and

1238
01:09:53,239 --> 01:09:56,800
saves us. So that's my list. Again, there's many, many more,

1239
01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:59,279
but I thought that would be a good sampling of

1240
01:09:59,319 --> 01:10:00,960
just the three centuries.

1241
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:04,640
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And if we go back even further, Mike,

1242
01:10:05,039 --> 01:10:07,279
I missed this in the dedicay until Michael hath Bird

1243
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:10,119
put in his book. He knows that the didicates changes

1244
01:10:10,159 --> 01:10:14,079
the well known celebrated liturgical formula Hosanna to the Son

1245
01:10:14,119 --> 01:10:16,800
of David, to Hoseannah to the God of David, an

1246
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:20,960
explicit relation to Jesus. The purported low Christology of Jewish

1247
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:25,439
Christianity is an urban myth waiting to be bumped. So

1248
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,840
the dedicate is very early, is probably earlier than the

1249
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,960
Shepherd of Herma's. It's close to the New Testament. It's

1250
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,640
definitely first century right then, and there they're saying, yes,

1251
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:37,920
Jesus is God and also in the Dedicay, you have

1252
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:41,399
a trinitarian baptism formula. You baptize in the name of

1253
01:10:41,399 --> 01:10:44,279
the Father Son in the Holy Spirit. If you go

1254
01:10:44,359 --> 01:10:46,640
even back, if we just go look at the New Testament.

1255
01:10:47,039 --> 01:10:49,640
Here's a quote from Michael Patrick Barber in his book

1256
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:54,800
The Historical Jesus in the Temple. The vocative lord Lord

1257
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:57,279
is applied to Jesus in the Sermon of the Mouth.

1258
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:00,960
As Jason Staples has shown, this expression always represents an

1259
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:04,159
allusion to the tetragramaton and the septuagen in places where

1260
01:11:04,399 --> 01:11:08,399
it has the Hebrew has atto Naishem the septuagen as

1261
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:12,319
Lord Lord. And what is Jesus saying, Well, when people

1262
01:11:12,319 --> 01:11:14,600
call on me, Lord Lord, he's saying that he's the

1263
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:17,720
tetragrammaton Right there. You can see the same thing in

1264
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:21,039
Matthew fourteen. It's a scene that stands out where Jesus

1265
01:11:21,119 --> 01:11:24,800
is exercising something that only the God of the Bible

1266
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:29,239
can do, namely walking on water. And what Barber does

1267
01:11:29,319 --> 01:11:32,000
is he goes through and he shows how Matthew fourteen

1268
01:11:32,319 --> 01:11:36,279
is directly quoting from Psalm sixty eight about the Psalmist

1269
01:11:36,279 --> 01:11:38,920
and how he's writing his relation to God and how

1270
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,279
it's very similar to that. And you can just see

1271
01:11:41,319 --> 01:11:44,079
this when you go through the biblical text, like you

1272
01:11:44,159 --> 01:11:47,760
see Mark opening his Gospel saying that someone's gonna come

1273
01:11:48,159 --> 01:11:51,000
prepare a way for the Lord. You think that's going

1274
01:11:51,039 --> 01:11:53,479
to be Jesus. But who shows up? John the Baptist

1275
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,720
comes and who's he preparing the way for Jesus? And

1276
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,399
what is this passage here quoting from It's quoting from

1277
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:02,359
Isaiah talking about a voice crying in the wilderness preparing

1278
01:12:02,399 --> 01:12:06,840
away for Hashell. Right then and there you see this

1279
01:12:07,039 --> 01:12:11,159
through and through. One of my favorite ones is actually

1280
01:12:11,239 --> 01:12:14,520
right here where you see Mark sixty eight forty nine

1281
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,239
talk about when Jesus is walking on water again something

1282
01:12:17,279 --> 01:12:20,640
only Yahweh can do. It says he meant to pass

1283
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,039
by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea,

1284
01:12:23,039 --> 01:12:25,319
they thought it was a ghost. And like scholars like

1285
01:12:25,359 --> 01:12:28,600
Mike Lacona, this is directly referring to Job nine to

1286
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:32,359
eight talking about God trampling the waves on the sea.

1287
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,039
And it says also that he passes by me. And

1288
01:12:36,119 --> 01:12:39,920
so the Mark when he's writing this, what is in

1289
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:42,800
view is actually Job. So you can go through and

1290
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:45,560
see this over and over again. And notice that they're

1291
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:52,039
constantly connecting Jesus to God to Hashell constantly, over and over.

1292
01:12:53,399 --> 01:12:56,319
Speaker 1: I did a lecture through the Gospel of John. We

1293
01:12:56,359 --> 01:12:59,760
did every chapter, and we noticed when we did that

1294
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,439
that pretty much every chapter in John has at least

1295
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:04,960
a reference to the deity of Christ or the Trinity,

1296
01:13:06,199 --> 01:13:09,000
and sometimes both, you know, in an entire chapter. So

1297
01:13:09,319 --> 01:13:12,279
if people want to go deeper into that, that's never ending.

1298
01:13:12,319 --> 01:13:16,039
Well basically of you know, old Testament of distinent references

1299
01:13:16,039 --> 01:13:16,640
to the Trinity.

1300
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,920
Speaker 2: And and notice we we have some. I got so

1301
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:21,359
many more quotes. We didn't even get the Clement of

1302
01:13:21,399 --> 01:13:28,199
Alexandria or Gregory the Wonder Worker, so many quotes. There's

1303
01:13:28,279 --> 01:13:30,680
another great one, Odes of Solomon. I mean, there's just

1304
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,800
so much here, ladies and gentlemen. So for for Jake

1305
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:35,760
the Muslim metaphysician to stand up there and say, well,

1306
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,279
there was no Trinity before and I see and actually

1307
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:42,720
bring up fathers like Justin and Tertolian and Aaronaeus. Anyone

1308
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,640
who's read these fathers is to go, what are you

1309
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:50,079
talking about? These guys are like to say, Tertolian wasn't

1310
01:13:50,119 --> 01:13:53,159
preaching the Trinity? Is just mind boggling to me. I

1311
01:13:53,159 --> 01:13:54,399
don't know where he would get.

1312
01:13:54,399 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 1: Well, the early condemnations of Paul of sam Masauda and

1313
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:00,600
the Sabellians, right, I mean, they're so for So on

1314
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:03,079
the one hand, you've got the condemnation of the modalist

1315
01:14:03,159 --> 01:14:09,720
anti trinitarian excuse me, of the Unitarian modalists of the Sibelians,

1316
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:14,199
and you've got simultaneously condination of the anti trinitarian Arians.

1317
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:17,439
So that's really again a confession of the fact that

1318
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:21,439
we're not Unitarian, we're not Aryan, we're Trinitarian exactly.

1319
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, that needs to be pointed out. So as

1320
01:14:25,039 --> 01:14:27,880
you can see, it is very easy to bunk this

1321
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:32,640
claim from Muslims. The Trinity is through the early Church,

1322
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:34,520
It's through the scriptures. And if you want to go

1323
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,640
even further back, watch Jay's debate as I mentioned with

1324
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:40,600
Daniel Akikitchu, where he shows that you can even see

1325
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,960
this multi personal nature of God in the Old Testament.

1326
01:14:44,319 --> 01:14:47,439
It's not this idea, this was a later development. This

1327
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,479
is something that is consistently taught in scripture. Was it

1328
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:54,840
fully revealed in the Old Testament? No, not entirely, but

1329
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,239
you can still see the beginnings of them starting to

1330
01:14:57,319 --> 01:15:00,119
understand that God is more than one person. There, they

1331
01:15:00,199 --> 01:15:01,920
did a great job demonstrating that in his debate.

1332
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if you know, the way Jesus talks

1333
01:15:05,239 --> 01:15:09,399
about his relationship to Moses and his relationship to Abraham

1334
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:13,159
gives us an indicator that according to Jesus and John

1335
01:15:13,199 --> 01:15:16,760
five through nine, they knew and had a relationship with him.

1336
01:15:17,279 --> 01:15:20,920
They didn't have to have a metaphysical treatise about how

1337
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:25,720
the Trinity works to know that there's Yahweh, there's his

1338
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:30,359
angel messenger that some of these Old Testament patriarchs interacted with,

1339
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,239
and there's his spirit, and the Spirit is all throughout

1340
01:15:33,279 --> 01:15:36,000
the Old Testament as well as a personal agent.

1341
01:15:37,239 --> 01:15:39,840
Speaker 2: Here is a question in a super chat for you, Jay,

1342
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:42,720
Jesus submitting to the Father is that like a wife

1343
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:45,800
submitting to her husband? But both are equal and valued

1344
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:47,039
as this argument hold up.

1345
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,359
Speaker 1: I mean, I think Paul kind of makes that analogy. Right.

1346
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:54,479
We submit to the church as the wife submits to

1347
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:57,159
the husband, as Christ submits to the Father. But again,

1348
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:03,479
submission and subordination doesn't necessitate onto logical difference. Right, So

1349
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:08,920
I might have authority over my wife in a relationship

1350
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:11,479
way but that doesn't mean that in terms of our

1351
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:16,159
nature or our ontology that I'm more human than she is, right, Ye.

1352
01:16:16,319 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 2: A good way to put it. Yeah, thank you for

1353
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:21,520
the super chat. Messianic apostate is actually an ex Muslim,

1354
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:24,239
so I appreciate you showing up here wholesome to see

1355
01:16:24,239 --> 01:16:26,079
Mikey J. Clabrety. Yeah, and I hope we can do

1356
01:16:26,119 --> 01:16:28,359
more in the future on stuff like this because I

1357
01:16:28,359 --> 01:16:31,079
think it's great for Christians to work together and find unity,

1358
01:16:32,039 --> 01:16:34,720
and I think that's all. I am all for doing

1359
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:36,720
more of that. Very good to see you two work

1360
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:39,159
together defend the Trinity, one of, if not the most

1361
01:16:39,199 --> 01:16:42,119
important doctrines. I love to see some unity instead of division.

1362
01:16:42,159 --> 01:16:45,680
Totally agree. Would you say, Jada, the Trinity is the

1363
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:48,920
most essential Christian doctrine or would you say it's equal

1364
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:50,479
with other doctrines.

1365
01:16:52,279 --> 01:16:55,039
Speaker 1: I believe that, you know, the first Seven Council of

1366
01:16:55,079 --> 01:16:57,520
the Church, in my view, really hammer out all of

1367
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:01,479
the trinitarian and crystological implication. So really the Trinity is

1368
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,960
kind of the foundation, and then all the other doctrines

1369
01:17:05,039 --> 01:17:08,000
like Christology will flow from that. So I think Trinity

1370
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:11,399
and Christology really set the tone for what Christianity is.

1371
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with you on that. Uh

1372
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:18,560
looks like one of your fans, soy face. No better

1373
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:19,840
guests have on this time.

1374
01:17:21,359 --> 01:17:23,039
Speaker 1: One thing I would add to I just remembered. So

1375
01:17:24,279 --> 01:17:27,079
tonight I'll be doing a live stream with doctor bo Branson,

1376
01:17:27,119 --> 01:17:29,920
who I think has you mentioned that you mentioned the

1377
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:34,359
guy that uh, who's the black guy that that's.

1378
01:17:34,159 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 2: The monarchy doctor Joshua.

1379
01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 1: They've done streams together and uh, doctor Branson and I

1380
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:42,439
are going to be covering some of this tonight because

1381
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:46,199
he had a debate with Jake in the past that

1382
01:17:46,239 --> 01:17:49,479
I recommend everybody watch does God Have a Son? And

1383
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,960
they'd had a really good interaction on that, and then

1384
01:17:53,199 --> 01:17:56,479
doctor Khalil Adnani has a really good interaction with Jake too,

1385
01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:59,960
So people want to go deeper into the Jake debates,

1386
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:02,560
I would suggest those. And then for those that are

1387
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:05,359
interested in what monarchical trinitarianism is, we'll be doing a

1388
01:18:05,399 --> 01:18:06,479
live stream on that tonight.

1389
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:11,600
Speaker 2: What time is that I think we're eight est ad

1390
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:14,800
st Okay, So for those of you watching, be sure

1391
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:16,359
to go to Ja's channel tonight to watch that. If

1392
01:18:16,359 --> 01:18:18,760
you're watching this later, you can go to Jay's channel

1393
01:18:19,159 --> 01:18:20,840
now and wants that because we're going to wrap up

1394
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:24,880
this dream here soon. Question here, people who live in

1395
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:27,439
glass houses should and throw stones? Does Jake not realize

1396
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:30,000
he also prays to the dead five times a day

1397
01:18:30,159 --> 01:18:33,640
to a guy rotting in Mecca. I not sure that's

1398
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:35,199
a reference to you. I'm not updated on all my

1399
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:38,479
understanding this Lawmick theology. Jad know what this is in

1400
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:39,039
reference to.

1401
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 1: Is do they think he's dying in Mecca? I guess

1402
01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,119
that means that he didn't ascend to heaven. So I

1403
01:18:46,119 --> 01:18:47,439
guess that's what that person means.

1404
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:50,039
Speaker 2: I think that he's, for any of them praying to Mohammad,

1405
01:18:50,119 --> 01:18:51,840
whose body was buried in Mecca.

1406
01:18:52,119 --> 01:18:54,279
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying, Like, so he didn't ascend, so

1407
01:18:54,319 --> 01:18:57,359
he's still Jesus ascended and Mohammad did not, I guess,

1408
01:18:57,479 --> 01:18:58,159
is what he's saying.

1409
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:01,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely to be that case. All right, where's

1410
01:19:01,399 --> 01:19:04,840
the next one here, Jane? I applaud your courage. Is

1411
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:08,359
amazing that you're showing your face after how you exposed.

1412
01:19:08,359 --> 01:19:11,119
And I don't know who that is, but I doubt

1413
01:19:11,119 --> 01:19:12,720
that he actually exposed and demolished, you.

1414
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: Know, So this is a Marxist communist who oh argued

1415
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:20,800
that materialism is true because there's no such thing as metaphysics,

1416
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:23,359
and so he didn't understand that that's a metaphysical claim

1417
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:27,000
to say that all reality is material. And yeah, so

1418
01:19:27,039 --> 01:19:28,399
that that wasn't much of a debate.

1419
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, pretty sure. All right, anything else you want

1420
01:19:32,880 --> 01:19:36,159
to say on trinitarian theology. As I said, Jay's got

1421
01:19:36,159 --> 01:19:39,239
a stream tonight with doc doctor Bob Ranson, another great scholar.

1422
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:42,119
They're going to be covering more of this. Anything else

1423
01:19:42,159 --> 01:19:45,319
you want to add before we wrap up here, Just.

1424
01:19:45,359 --> 01:19:49,279
Speaker 1: One comment that the notion of development is a little unclear.

1425
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:54,399
In our view, the trinity is a doctrine that the

1426
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:58,039
apostles are handing down, even if the word trinity is

1427
01:19:58,079 --> 01:20:02,039
not used. And so what we believe the councils are

1428
01:20:02,039 --> 01:20:06,199
doing is just defining and explicating and getting more precise

1429
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:10,199
about what that depositive faith that was once we're all delivered.

1430
01:20:10,399 --> 01:20:13,760
Was so an argue contrary to like a Roman Catholic

1431
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,479
idea of the doctrinal development. We don't think that there's

1432
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:21,399
like an evolving, changing thing. And Jake seemed to have

1433
01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:23,239
that kind of an argument when he was saying Oh,

1434
01:20:23,279 --> 01:20:26,319
the Trinity is a doctrine that evolves, and I think

1435
01:20:26,319 --> 01:20:28,319
it's very important to point out that an argue. It's

1436
01:20:28,399 --> 01:20:32,279
not an evolution. It's an explication and getting more precise,

1437
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:34,920
but it's not an evolving doctrine.

1438
01:20:35,399 --> 01:20:37,079
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I would also say that the way I

1439
01:20:37,399 --> 01:20:40,439
kind of word it is like you may not see

1440
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:44,279
the word in the Bible omniscience, for example, but clearly

1441
01:20:44,399 --> 01:20:47,239
you see that taught. And it's the same with the Trinity.

1442
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:49,159
I don't know you can come away from reading the

1443
01:20:49,159 --> 01:20:52,960
Gospel of John, especially the Farewell Discourse, and not come

1444
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:56,039
away with a trinitarian theology. Like That's where I point

1445
01:20:56,039 --> 01:20:57,800
people too, when they say where does the Bible teach

1446
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:00,439
the Trinity? Just read John and if you really want

1447
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:03,600
something specific, starting John thirteen and go up to John seventeen.

1448
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:08,640
You'll see it very monarchical trinitarianism right there. It's all

1449
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:11,079
three persons are mentioned, all referred to as God. I

1450
01:21:11,119 --> 01:21:12,800
don't know how else you can get around this.

1451
01:21:13,319 --> 01:21:15,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I totally agree. Yah, John's so clear.

1452
01:21:16,079 --> 01:21:19,119
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, so. I appreciate you coming on the channel, Jay.

1453
01:21:19,119 --> 01:21:20,960
I thought this was going to be very helpful. I

1454
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:22,680
hope people can use this stream in the future for

1455
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:26,000
Muslims make this ridiculous claim and all the quotes we

1456
01:21:26,039 --> 01:21:27,960
put up so you guys can just see it for

1457
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:30,720
yourself and go and get the quotes. This isn't hard

1458
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:33,319
to debunk, ladies and gentlemen. For a Muslim to make

1459
01:21:33,359 --> 01:21:35,760
the bold claim that the Church didn't teach the Trinity.

1460
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:38,720
Until I see it, it's just pure and utter nonsense.

1461
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:40,880
And I appreciate my guests being on with me today.

1462
01:21:41,159 --> 01:21:44,319
We don't agree on everything, that's okay because we both

1463
01:21:44,359 --> 01:21:46,760
affirm the essential doctrines. Appreciate it on.

1464
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:48,199
Speaker 1: This point for sure, We.

1465
01:21:48,159 --> 01:21:50,600
Speaker 2: Most certainly do, and that needs to be celebrated and

1466
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:52,840
explored because I think there's a lot more unity in

1467
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:54,920
the Body of Christ than is actually known. And so

1468
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:56,920
I was very honored to have you on today. Jay,

1469
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:58,479
I appreciate and I hope we can do more of

1470
01:21:58,520 --> 01:21:59,239
this in the future.

1471
01:21:59,399 --> 01:22:02,039
Speaker 1: Appreciate me anyway. God bless you and have a good day.

1472
01:22:02,399 --> 01:22:04,199
Speaker 2: God bless you too. God bless you too.

1473
01:22:04,279 --> 01:22:04,479
Speaker 1: Man