WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:07.960 Oh he is, folks, it's show tied. 2 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.560 People say good money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:12.160 When they go out to a theater. 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:15.960 They want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters. 5 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:19.039 In the Protection Booth, everyone pretend podcasting isn't. 6 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:20.879 Boring, got it off? 7 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:56.640 Today we begin a new era. 8 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:09.959 I have existed from the morning of the world, and 9 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:13.000 I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. 10 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:17.719 Although I have taken the form of gaias Conningular, I 11 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:18.760 am no man, as I. 12 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:24.959 Am old man, and therefore I am a god. 13 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:53.560 Oh yes, now the fun begins. 14 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.480 If only all Rome had just watched never. 15 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:07.280 Who I am a great season. 16 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:28.319 Hello, Welcome to the Projection Booth. I'm your host, Mike, 17 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:30.800 why too, hen me once again as mister Rob Saint Mary. 18 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:34.159 Shall I be remembered as Caligula the Dull. 19 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:36.759 Also back in the Booth is Miss Heather Drain. 20 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:38.280 Hello. Hello. 21 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:41.120 On this special episode of the Projection Booth, we are 22 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.240 going back to the Well. This may be the first 23 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:47.560 ever time we've discussed a movie for a third time, 24 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:51.199 but much like the Saga of the Magnificent Amberson's or 25 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:53.879 the Other Side of the Wind, we are continuing to 26 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:58.000 document the troubled history of the nineteen eighty film Caligula. 27 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.479 Caligula isn't just artistically that it's also offensive and it's 28 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:05.039 gratuitous scenes of torture and perversion. This movie makes it real, 29 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:10.039 specially out of castrations, disembowlments, crucifixions and other forms of 30 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:12.719 torture that the camera lingers over and lingers over, and 31 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:14.039 what a piece of trash. 32 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:18.639 When we first spoke about this film almost ten years ago, 33 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:22.120 exactly where we were joined by Maitland McDonough to discuss 34 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:26.039 the movie, while Ranjit Sandu gave us the sordid history 35 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.960 behind the production and talked about his book Two hundred 36 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.960 Degrees of Failure, and filmmaker Alexander Tushinski discussed the career 37 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:35.840 of Tinto Brass and the original intentions Brass had for 38 00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:39.319 this finish film. We came back together in twenty eighteen 39 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:42.560 to discuss the recent rediscovery of the original footage of 40 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:46.599 Khaligla and the plans Penthouse and Alexander had to restore 41 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:50.199 the film to Tinto Brass's original version. This is where 42 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:55.319 we left things. I recorded Alexander's interview and then a 43 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:58.120 week later I talked with Kelly and like in the 44 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:04.319 interim is when the bigger news broke about her almost 45 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:07.360 losing the company and then getting the company back, and 46 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.159 then the funding it sounds like is going to be 47 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.960 there for this restoration of Caligula. And I just want 48 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.759 to make sure that folks understand is that this will 49 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:23.120 probably be Alexander at some point taking that workprint that 50 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:25.480 he's talked about, the work print of Caligula where I 51 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:27.720 think he said like eighty nine minutes of it were done, 52 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:32.120 and then kind of using the original elements to recreate that, 53 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:36.399 and then the rest of the film will be done 54 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:40.959 in the style of Tinto Brass unless Brassless notes or 55 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:45.439 Brass himself, who is still a very viable filmmaker, unless 56 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:50.319 that happens, It'll be done in the style of Tinto Brass, 57 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:52.839 and I think that Alexander knows his style well enough 58 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:54.240 to be able to do that. It's kind of like 59 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:58.800 Walter murch coming in and redoing Touch of Evil based 60 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:03.240 upon the memos kind of thing. So I'm very very 61 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.000 excited about this because it does sound I don't want 62 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.199 to get my hopes up, because you know, things happen, 63 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.199 but in a world where either side of the Wind 64 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:16.439 might actually have its premiere very soon. I'm very excited 65 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:21.079 that Tinto Brass's Caligula with name over the title kind 66 00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:25.319 of thing, that Tinto Brass's Caligula might finally actually see 67 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:27.680 the light of day. Now we are back when we 68 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:29.959 were talking about the version of Caligula that played in 69 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:34.199 con in twenty twenty three, once referred to as Caligula 70 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:38.560 mmxx or Caligula twenty twenty. But this is twenty twenty 71 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:42.920 four and it's now called Caligula the Ultimate Cut, and 72 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:46.120 it was produced by a person named Thomas Nagovit. We 73 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.360 will be discussing the film as well as what's happened 74 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:52.800 to this project over the last six years. We'll also 75 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:54.680 be spoiling the film as we go along, so if 76 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:56.920 you don't want anything ruin, go ahead and find the movie. 77 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:59.279 It's coming out on Blu Ray a few times, including 78 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:03.519 the Umbrella Entertainment version, which features commentary from our own 79 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:07.120 Heather Train. One more thing, we might get some things 80 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:09.800 wrong as we talk about this, just because we have 81 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:13.079 been caliguled up one side and down the other. I 82 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.920 feel a little bit like Proculus. At my wedding night. 83 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:22.839 I've had a lot of Caligula coming in and out 84 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:24.839 of these eyes and ears, and I get a little 85 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:27.879 bit of details wrong or any of us. Please forgive us, Heather. 86 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:30.519 I'm so curious. How did you get involved in this 87 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:33.199 new release and what did you think when you first 88 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:35.560 saw Caligula the Ultimate Cut? 89 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:38.319 First of all, how much do I give a rational answer? 90 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:41.240 Would you just reference what may be the greatest fisting 91 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:43.839 saying and all of said him at history? 92 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.800 I don't know some of the I think Fred Halstead 93 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:47.560 hasn't beat. 94 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:52.480 But it's again children's entertainment. Come on, this is what 95 00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.480 we specialize here on the projection booths. Between this and solo, 96 00:06:55.879 --> 00:06:57.160 it's just children's entertainment. 97 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:57.399 Mine. 98 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:01.240 This is what I've bested about talking with Rob Vonville podcast. 99 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:07.360 Is that dry humor and that slightly beautifully shaded void 100 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:10.160 of view. I do love Frett Holston. We'll save that 101 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:12.720 for another show. As far as how I got into 102 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:14.439 this particular cut of the film, or how did I 103 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.519 get into Colligula in general? 104 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:19.079 Either one. If you want to talk about Caligula, because 105 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:21.720 this is your first Caligula with us, we wanted to 106 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:24.560 bring you on here. Maitland is okay, She's fine. It's 107 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:26.439 been a little tough getting hold of her lately, but 108 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:28.720 I think she's doing our right. I've seen posts and 109 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:32.079 still on her substack. But either with you doing the 110 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.199 audio commentary, we're like, great, let's get Heather over here 111 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:37.000 and have her talk about this. But yeah, please tell 112 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:38.759 me your history with Calligila, if you would. 113 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:42.759 I remember hearing about Calliguila as a little kid. I 114 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:47.120 remember seeing the vhs and the mature section at our 115 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.759 local video star, because Walker Corner Video did not have 116 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:52.959 an adult section, they had a mature Some of those 117 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.560 videos were probably more on the immature range because there 118 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:57.639 was like a lot of Beach Bundy type stuff. It 119 00:07:57.680 --> 00:07:59.920 was all softcore, but they had I remember seeing the 120 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:05.199 cover for Caligula and that great iconic art, and yeah, 121 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:07.000 I was already reading a lot about film. If ooh, 122 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.519 that's aid infamous film. Even as a little kid, I 123 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.279 knew this is the film. Chirs Malcolm McDowell, Sir John 124 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:16.600 gilgot Helen Mary and you've got these Shakespearean trained actors 125 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:19.800 and it's pehouse and it's lurned And I remember seeing 126 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:24.360 Inside Edition or it's like tabloid shows doing a piece 127 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:28.120 on it, like the late eighties feel like Video Search 128 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.879 of Miami and one of their catalogs had some variation 129 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:32.840 cut of it at some point, because I used to 130 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:34.559 get their catalogs even though I was too poor to 131 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:37.639 order anything, and I was also like, well under eighteen, 132 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.440 I couldn't order from But I loved seeing the movies, 133 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:44.159 and when I finally did get to see it, I 134 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:48.120 was not disappointed. It's see the Goociona cut is for 135 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.159 all of its flaws, you still get to see there's 136 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.799 so much brilliance in the movie that cannot be restrained 137 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:58.440 by any cut of it, and especially McDowell, the Danello 138 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:01.840 di Natti sets, and honestly, I think there are performers 139 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:05.000 there that don't get enough respect that should, including Teresa 140 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:08.279 and Savoya, John Steiper especially. So I'm a huge fan 141 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:11.120 of Caligula, which is why when I got approached from 142 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:14.240 somebody by Umbrella if I wanted to contribute a commentary, 143 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:16.799 I of course jumped on it. Now I do have 144 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:19.279 to give a shout out to Alexandra Heller Nichols because 145 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:21.720 she threw my name in that hat. I would not 146 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:24.799 have gotten that gig without her vouching for me. So 147 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.519 I hope she likes you. When ever happened? Really, Jesus, 148 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:30.759 hope they don't hate it. But I did my best. 149 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:33.360 But and so that's how I got to see the 150 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:36.720 old Simth cut, and it was fascinating. It is a 151 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.600 fascinating thing to see. I think it's interesting and I 152 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.039 can't really think of any other film that's white has 153 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:46.840 the storied history of having so many variations of it 154 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:49.600 as far as edits the whole drama of it being 155 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:54.320 basically stolen from the director. Because the other thing that 156 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.360 helped me get my name in that hat was I'm 157 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.600 a noted Tito Brass fan. I'm a huge Tino Brass 158 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.679 fair girl. I don't know as much as Alexander Trushinsky, 159 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:04.759 who I know you got to interview Bow. Alex is 160 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:09.000 amazing and incredible, but I love Tinta Brass. He's a 161 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.320 my kind of artist. So I was curious to see 162 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:13.639 how this cut was going to play out. I knew 163 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.080 it was going to be different than the Mission Caligula 164 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.720 cut on which may be sad, but it's still okay. 165 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:22.919 Getting to see this footage restored and presented in a 166 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:25.879 different way had be very intrigued. But I'll reserve my 167 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.399 further thoughts as we go into it. 168 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:30.919 Yeah, I should say, even before I asked Rob what 169 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.279 he thought of the Ultimate cut. Part of the reason 170 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:35.600 we're doing this episode is just to set the record straight, 171 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:37.320 because I think there are still people out there that 172 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:40.759 think that this new cut, the Ultimate cut, is Alexander's 173 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:43.399 version of this. It's not, and we'll definitely talk about 174 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:45.679 that in the second half of the show, but just 175 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.120 to put that out there right here and now, just 176 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:50.960 a few minutes in. It's an interesting follow up to 177 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:53.480 what we talked about with Mission Caligula, but this is 178 00:10:53.559 --> 00:10:56.360 not where we thought we were going to be going. So, Rob, 179 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.039 what did you think when you finally got to see 180 00:10:58.039 --> 00:10:59.080 this Ultimate cut? 181 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.120 Thing that was interesting for me is that there's scenes 182 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:04.799 in the film that are directly what we know that 183 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:08.320 Alexander told us about, such as the Simon says seen 184 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:12.360 the gods removing the head scene, things that there were 185 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:15.600 stills for but we didn't see. So for me, there's 186 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.679 aspects of that are really interesting. Another aspect of this 187 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:22.320 that I like are some of the performances ad depth, 188 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:24.559 and there's even a character in here that I don't 189 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:27.639 remember from the theatrical version that we'll talk about that 190 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:32.240 I think adds a bit to McDowell's performance in his 191 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:35.639 characterization that I think is interesting. So it has a 192 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:38.519 lot of extra things in. It runs an extra I 193 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:42.080 think thirty minutes compared to the original theatricals, so it's 194 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:45.679 three hours now. And then there are aspects of it 195 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:48.080 in terms of the edit that I find a bit 196 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:52.039 ponderous at times, and editing choices and things like that, 197 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:53.639 And we can talk about all that. That's more for 198 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:59.399 the second half, But for me, it's again like Heather 199 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.720 was saying, it's seeing another version of something that you're 200 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:06.679 familiar with, and it still leaves me hungry for that. 201 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:10.440 As close as we could get tinto brass version that 202 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:12.799 I would absolutely love to see, I would look. That 203 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:15.279 is a hang up that I have, But I went 204 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:20.240 in watching it against what was previously given to us, 205 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.399 meaning the gucci Oni version and the Blu ray, which 206 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:24.799 is a little bit different when they cut out some 207 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:26.840 of the softcore or some of the hardcore from what 208 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.879 I remember. But it definitely has some merits on its own, 209 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:34.200 and it has some deficiencies on its own too. That's 210 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:36.919 to be expected with any time you tinker with it 211 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:37.759 with any piece of heart. 212 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:41.120 Sorry, it's close. I don't know if it's got a cigar, 213 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:44.480 but it's close. There are some interesting choices, Like you said, 214 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.360 even when it comes to the long opening scroll, I 215 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:50.759 understand us wanting to have a scroll at the beginning 216 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:53.039 to talk a little bit about the history of the film, 217 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:55.679 though some of the things that are in that opening scroll, 218 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:58.559 I'm just like, really, then to start it off with 219 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:02.799 the animated and I'm just like, oh, okay, we're going 220 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:07.360 really different because that animated sequence, which not a big 221 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.039 fan of the style of the animation, some of it 222 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.320 looks kind of I don't know off to me, but 223 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:14.679 I guess it is a dream sequence, so you can't 224 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:17.879 really put rules on a dream sequence. I'd like some 225 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:19.759 of this stuff that they have when it comes to 226 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:23.440 the little Caligula dance and everything, and I'm just like, Okay, 227 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:25.879 this explains a little bit more. I know we're saving 228 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:27.600 a lot of stuff for the second half of the discussion, 229 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.279 so I'm not going to get too far into it. 230 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:33.759 But the dream sequence was there in one version of 231 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.440 course screenplay, it wasn't there in another. But at least 232 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:39.840 it makes a lot more sense to have this dream 233 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:44.840 version here rather than to make it be I remember, 234 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:47.559 and I listened to our earlier episodes on this because 235 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:49.759 I refuse to go back and watch the Gucci one 236 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:55.279 version again. But where it was the dream was nymphocent 237 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:57.600 in the forest, and then it's uh, I had this 238 00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.360 horrible dream, like what wait what? 239 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.759 Speaking of that animated sequence, I was looking at it, 240 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.919 and I went back and actually looked at the press 241 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:07.559 notes after, and the press notes at least the version 242 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:09.399 that we got is only really two pages, so there's 243 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:12.039 not a lot in there. But I was looking at it. 244 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:14.639 I go, God, this looks really familiar, Like this animation 245 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.480 design style is really familiar, and I realized it's Dave McKean. 246 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.000 And I loved Dave McKean's work from Arkham Asylum, the 247 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.399 graphic novel, the Batman Story, and he also did those 248 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.559 covers in the eighties and nineties for Sandman. He has 249 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:34.799 a very specific painter style, and so I like his art. 250 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.039 I just it just seemed to me almost like the 251 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.559 dream sequence. I understand what he was doing by creating 252 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:42.480 this and putting it in the film, but part of 253 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.759 it I don't necessarily know. If it pays off as well, 254 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:50.080 because really, ultimately what it's about is just paranoia. It's 255 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:52.840 really about the paranoia of power is really the story, 256 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:54.559 and I don't think you need to get that far 257 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.840 into it because it's like Poligula as Joseph Stalin, He's 258 00:14:57.879 --> 00:14:59.799 just I'm in power and now everyone wants to kill me. 259 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.720 Some might but not everyone. There's this I've got to 260 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.200 take everyone out before they take me out attitude, and 261 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:09.919 that just ramps. So that's just the story ramp. But 262 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:12.519 I don't know if the dream sequence really adds much 263 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.559 or helps to play in, although it does add with 264 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:18.559 some of the symbology later with the bird and things 265 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:18.879 like that. 266 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.919 Dave McKeon and Thomas and mcgovin, their pats had crossed 267 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:27.279 before this project. They worked together on a exhibition and 268 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.159 that's the thing is like mcgovan has this amazing background 269 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:34.799 as an art preservationist and historian and for something called 270 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:37.440 he did this program called Keno Geist that was this 271 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:40.279 two day event and part of that was called Nitrate 272 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:42.720 and Keino Guys, and that included they had some of 273 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.799 like Keyan short films and the whole thing was celebrating 274 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.480 basically silent film art too, which is super cool, so 275 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.120 they definitely at cross. I'm a huge day of McKeen fan. 276 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:53.320 Two. 277 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.639 It's weird the innimation. I don't think I initially clocked 278 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:00.639 as Dave mckeenon because, like Rob and like anybody that 279 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.399 grew up at least three fourced goth in the nineties, 280 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:08.120 like the Samman comics, and especially the cover art is 281 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:12.000 just like iconic. But it's cool. It's cool. I don't 282 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:14.639 That's one of the big changes that I actually I'm 283 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.919 okay with because there wasn't really like any raw footage 284 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:21.279 found for that. And it is important to note because 285 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:25.799 I think the whole thing with Colligils's paranoia is it's 286 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:28.080 and I'm trying to remember if this was like touched 287 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:32.960 upon that well in the GUCCIONI cut, But basically, like 288 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.759 the whole history is, every emperor dies young and get 289 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:40.840 and does not die a natural death, and his whole 290 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:44.639 family other than his sisters, were exiled. That's the thing. 291 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:47.399 Tiberia's excel his mother and his two brothers off to 292 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.919 an island where they starved to death. So you can 293 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.279 understand why he's paranoid and why he's not settled. I 294 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:55.159 think I go a little bit more into the nuts 295 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:57.279 and bolts and that when we get to the Tiberia section. 296 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.639 I don't think there was a dream sequence shot though, 297 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.639 because there is a dream sequence a little bit in 298 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.839 the October twenty, nineteen seventy five script, but the July 299 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:12.240 seventy sixth script, and it begins with him waking up 300 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.599 just like we had in the earlier version, and really, 301 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:18.759 from what I understand, it was supposed to start very 302 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:21.920 similar to Selon Kitty, with a out of focus shot 303 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.000 that you just stay in while the credits play, and 304 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:29.039 then eventually it becomes in focus, and that's Kalig waking 305 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:31.480 up with Driscilla next to him and he's had this 306 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.640 horrible dream, and that's right out of that opening of 307 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:38.079 that July seventy six script. And so I guess it's 308 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:42.000 just really which version you're reading as far as which 309 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.319 one you want to say this is the true one. 310 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:46.680 But I would say I know. Brass said that there 311 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:49.799 were seven versions of the script written, and that was 312 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:54.079 before Malcolm mcdalbrod and his person too work on the 313 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:55.960 script a little bit as well, and I guess that's 314 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.799 what helped cause a lot of friction between Brass and 315 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:02.640 though I don't see those two really getting along too well. 316 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:06.400 Talking about two, oh, there's a lot of I think 317 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:09.119 I know. One of Gorse scripts, Tinto was complaining that 318 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.920 there was too much like gay, which Tito I don't 319 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:16.079 think is homophobias. He's had, He had Salon Giddy has 320 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:19.759 a very positive gay character in it. But it's it's 321 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:21.920 got to be more than just buggery. You gotta have 322 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:26.640 some mixture. Oh it odd and I think just those 323 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.319 are two. I hate using the alpha beta parvalance is 324 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.319 because of all the in cell ball shit out there. 325 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:34.640 But they are too like strong. Those are two very 326 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.279 strong finkers, two very brilliant, and they're very in very 327 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.599 distinctive ways. But also one's incredibly American, the one's incredibly Italian. 328 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:47.599 And sometimes those two can marry beautifully, but when they don't, it's, yeah, 329 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:50.519 you get Gorse little bit che quote. Did you guys 330 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:54.079 read where he one of his comments about Tito was, oh, 331 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.440 that he should have been called Tinto's z inc And 332 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.119 it's that's the best singer you got, Garny, come on 333 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:00.160 like that. 334 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.000 Here's the thing, that's here's the thing that's interesting in 335 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.200 my We were messaging a bit before the show earlier today, 336 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.279 and this is the third time we've had a bite 337 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:11.960 at this apple, and this is the first time that 338 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:14.880 it came to mind. And I know Camu enough, but 339 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.359 it was like I didn't put it together that Albert 340 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.359 Kimu had written a play of Poligula. And so there's 341 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:23.680 part of me that although I haven't seen the play, 342 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:25.880 I have not read the play. I understand the synopsis, 343 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.839 and the synopsis follows much the same, But really I 344 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:36.039 wonder how much Gorvidal was looking at Camu's treatment and 345 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:39.759 borrowing from it, because ultimately what sets him off in 346 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.920 that play from the synopsis I read is the death 347 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:45.720 of Drusilla that basically, once Drusilla dies, he's fuck it. 348 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:47.400 I can do whatever I want. I don't care anymore. 349 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:49.640 I've given up on trying to be nice to anyone, 350 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.440 and I'm just gonna be the id and I'm going 351 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.440 to do anything I want. And so that becomes really 352 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.279 the push the incident within the Camu play. But here 353 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.079 it seems more like what the push for him is 354 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:06.559 more of the paranoia, in that he's more scared of 355 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:11.000 Tiberius and then Jemalus and all these other people trying 356 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.279 to turn against him. So it seems more of paranoia 357 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.799 and exercise in paranoia than it is a I've lost 358 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:20.519 the love of my life and therefore everyone suffers. 359 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.559 I love that what you sent that to as, I 360 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.119 was like, I'm floored. I was like, oh God, this 361 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:29.000 that's why I love when Rob but the talk and 362 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:31.559 Rob as you bring up these things, and especially I 363 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:34.519 think between that and Gore Vidal does need to be like, 364 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.880 I mean absolutely praise for he incorporated a lot of 365 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:42.279 legit historical research that shines in all versions of this 366 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:44.240 That is everything going to bee hundred percent. Now, let's 367 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.319 face it, history is not one hundred percent because it's 368 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:49.400 written by the victors. But he sourced a lot of 369 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.799 it from Suetonius. There were two main historians of this era, 370 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.599 and that was Setonius and Cassio Dio. And like the 371 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:58.880 whole thing with Tiberius, like the whole thing with the 372 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:02.680 minnows so creepy, like the little fishes and all that, 373 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:05.960 and it's and Peter Atole looks he looks like he 374 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:08.920 he looks like he's like the living dead. And that's 375 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.119 the already like it looks like a zombie and it's 376 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.920 just so appropriately just like ghastly. But that's the thing, 377 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:19.519 those were real legits. I guess rumors that he was 378 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:23.440 basically like a pedophile. Caligial was brought in as a slave, 379 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:26.400 he treated him as a slave. There is no telling 380 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:31.000 if that's true what Caligula as a little boy, as 381 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.440 a young man had to witness an endure also with 382 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:36.160 the full knowledge that this is the man that was 383 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:40.880 responsible for basically slowly murdering his family, like most of 384 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.000 his family, including his mother. I don't see how that 385 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:47.160 would not make any body paranoid and insane. I'm not 386 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:52.160 justifying any crazy, but and I love that there's that touch. 387 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:54.680 I think Malcolm McDowell, who is one of our greatest 388 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:57.799 living actors, I'm a huge I know well he didn't 389 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:00.559 feel like he has performance shined in the other cuts. 390 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:02.799 It's back in McDowell. The man's gonna shine in a 391 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:05.279 subway shop like he's got you put them in a 392 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:09.119 subway ordering a meatball sandwich. Dude is gonna shine. That's 393 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:11.880 what he does. Because here there are times where he 394 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:15.759 has such a sensitivity in his eyes and such emotion. 395 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:20.079 But he also has that cheeky side to and also 396 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:25.240 just that bratty monster, and he has all of this, 397 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:27.440 but I love I think in some ways the whole 398 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:32.160 stuff with Tiberius in this film is the most compelling. 399 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.519 You were talking about the research, and one of the 400 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:39.640 things Goorvidal wrote a lot of historical novels that were 401 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:43.640 he did research and did all that stuff. And one 402 00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:48.640 of the things that's interesting about ancient Roman writing, especially 403 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.359 in this period like where Christianity's coming in, is you 404 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:53.640 have to remember also that some of the stuff is written, 405 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.000 as you were saying, how they're by the victors, and 406 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.200 who would become the victors would be a Christianized Romans. 407 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:04.640 So there's some historians of ancient Rome that say, you 408 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.480 know what, the whole thing with the orgies and the 409 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:12.519 sexual stuff and that's all overblown. They made them sound 410 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:17.559 way worse than they were in order to make them 411 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.559 the New Guard, sound much better than they were. There 412 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:24.480 was this balance of making the Old Guard seem like 413 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.920 they were just the most evil and horrible people. 414 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.799 That ever walked the face of the earth. 415 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:31.279 So the question becomes how much and we're never going 416 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:32.960 to know, But the question becomes how much of this 417 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:36.559 is real or not. But ultimately, I think the bigger 418 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:41.240 question is this question that's asked about how power corrupts, 419 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.319 how power can make you paranoid looking over your shoulder 420 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.000 all the time, And I think that's really the key 421 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.079 theme I think, really through the whole piece. 422 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.920 Yeah, we should say that Suetnis didn't write his history 423 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.960 of the Caesars until one twenty one a d. Which 424 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:58.920 was already so many years removed from Caligula. And I 425 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.680 know that I'm not an expert on any sort of 426 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.519 Roman history, but the from what I understand, a lot 427 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.039 of these histories, like you said, Rob, they're written by 428 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:11.319 the victors, and they're coloring things the way that they 429 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:16.720 want to color. Both Suetonas and Tacitus might have written 430 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:20.920 things that they thought were correct. We know how easily 431 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.119 facing it changed here in twenty twenty four, So I 432 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:27.400 don't know about forty nine AD type of stuff, but yeah, 433 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.160 I from what I understand, Wow, Nero actually wasn't that 434 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:32.480 bad of a guy. He didn't play the fiddle while 435 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.920 he was burning Rome down, these kind of things. But 436 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.319 it's the next emperor or the one after that is 437 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:40.000 look at that guy. Look at his record. Look at 438 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.559 what horrible things did he played the fiddle? Well, Rome 439 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.319 was burned, he set fire to Rome and played the fiddles? 440 00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:48.599 What are you talking about? So some of these things 441 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.400 like oh Coligula was so crazy? What is his horse 442 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.599 to be a senator? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. 443 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:57.039 I don't know, but yes, it's part of this narrative. 444 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:00.839 And that's the great thing about historical or allegory, or 445 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.720 even why I love horror film and science fiction is 446 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:07.240 because it takes something that could be very contemporary, and 447 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:08.839 if you were trying to talk about it in a 448 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.440 contemporary way, probably be pedantic and no one would pay 449 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:13.960 attention and be like it is boring. But when you 450 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:19.440 couch it into these other terms of history or science fiction, horror, whatever, 451 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:21.960 you can actually have a really interesting discussion on themes. 452 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:28.359 And ultimately, I don't care about historical accuracy of as 453 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.200 I care about I guess what Verna Hertzog would call it, 454 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:34.079 the asthetic truth? Is it true in terms of how 455 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.839 it feels? And you know it reacts as opposed as 456 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:37.720 a true true. 457 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:41.160 And going back to some of that conflict between gor 458 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.400 Vidal and Tinto Brass, part of it too was brass, 459 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.079 was like, you're spending way too much time on Tiberias. 460 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:50.160 This is not the Tiberius movie. This is the Collegular movie. 461 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.079 What are you doing with all this Tiberia stuff? And 462 00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:56.319 I seem to remember back in the first discussion we 463 00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:00.920 had about Caligula, me complaining about just how long the 464 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:06.640 Tiberia stuff goes on for. And even though they added 465 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:10.759 more to the Tiberia section, but they also took away 466 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:15.240 things from the Tiberia section, but that Tiberia section still runs. 467 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:19.000 I think close to a solid half an hour between 468 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.680 when Caligula gets told, hey, you need to go to 469 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:26.799 care and after Tiberius is murdered. I think that's a 470 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:29.839 solid half hour of screen time with all of this 471 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.039 stuff going on, if not more. And it just takes 472 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.240 fucking forever to get through this. And just hearing Peter 473 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:41.480 O'Toole that you like so saydes it's good to have both, 474 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:44.000 I'm just like, God, this is going on forever. 475 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.480 I loved that. I thought that the back and all 476 00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:51.440 of it. Ah, I think especially because saying it clear, 477 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:55.039 saying it a very clear, because the Imperial Edition of 478 00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:58.359 Poliguila is a set that I love it. I'm glad 479 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:00.799 I have it, and I thought that looks great, and 480 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:03.319 then do you see this restoration of it. But it's 481 00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:08.480 I think there's arguably stuff that's way more transaggressive and obsteem. 482 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:12.359 If it's film, it's not seen, but some crazy stuff 483 00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:15.039 going on compared to the stuff COOCCIONI shot, which I 484 00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:16.839 know as much as people are like, oh it's poured, 485 00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:22.400 it's pretty straight erotica. It's nothing crazy. You've got somebody 486 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.519 with a conjoined deformed twins and there's like a weird 487 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:29.680 dildo spinning wheel that looks honestly painful and like it 488 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.000 would probably I actually looks like something I saw on 489 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:33.920 a Joe sort of film, and I think about it. 490 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.119 Even then I was like, girl, do not get near leaf. 491 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.440 Do not put your vagina near that. It will hurt you, 492 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:42.440 and not in a fun way. But I loved it 493 00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:46.319 both for the complete outray of it, but I also 494 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:49.440 to me, I think I like the causeum it sets up, 495 00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:52.240 this is what he has had deep year around. It's 496 00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:54.759 to me, I think it's essential to see like the 497 00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:57.720 origin of Caligula, but the madness, but also just the 498 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:02.359 madness of government, which is really what the film to 499 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.519 me is really bad. People say it's about therruption of power, 500 00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:07.440 but it's also look at the nobody. They're all snakes. 501 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:11.599 There's not one hero in any of the political thing 502 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.599 a Caligular, if anything, is mocking them. The more he 503 00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:17.440 insane he gets, the more it's just it's like, in 504 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:19.839 his own weird way, he's just calling them out and 505 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:23.559 be like my horse. Yeah, and Titus is just as good, 506 00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.839 if not better than a lot of your sheep, who 507 00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:29.480 will quickly put a knife in someone's bag as you 508 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.799 will to pat him on it. Wow. I'm glad things 509 00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:34.160 have changed though, so that's good. 510 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:34.559 Yeah. 511 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:36.279 The point I had made, I think it was in 512 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:40.160 the first episode we did, is that Caligula becomes like 513 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:43.559 I had this bully in high school that it seemed 514 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:45.039 like he wanted to push you. It was like he 515 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.000 wanted a reaction out of you. And it's what he 516 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.039 does here where it's I'm just going to keep doing 517 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:51.680 this and I want to see if someone's going to 518 00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:55.400 push back, and eventually they do, but it takes a 519 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:58.200 long time, and it's almost someone with a death wish, 520 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:00.519 where it's I want to die, but I'm not going 521 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:02.440 to kill myself. I'm gonna make you do it. I'm 522 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.079 going to make you kill me. I'm not going to 523 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:06.079 kill myself. I want to see how far I could 524 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:06.480 push you. 525 00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:09.960 Instead of death by cop, it's death by Centurion exactly. 526 00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:14.680 Yes, that's a new metal band far fan that I love. 527 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:16.960 You know what's funny, though, we've all known bullies like 528 00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:19.599 that in real life. Who was like, I hate that, 529 00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:21.880 I hate that Berth. Then nobody likes that guy in 530 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:24.240 real life. But for some reason, Caligula in the movie. 531 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:28.240 Maybe it's because it's Malcolm McDowell's, but Betha mcdeal's like 532 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:28.640 the Beth. 533 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.200 The Caligula that McDowell plays in here is Alex's fever 534 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:36.839 dream from Clockwork Orange, because there's that scene where he's 535 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:39.359 in prison, he's reading the Great Book, he's reading the 536 00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.200 Big Book, and he's imagining himself taking part in scourging 537 00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:45.440 Christ on the way to the Cross and all of 538 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.400 that stuff. And for me, there's one scene in here 539 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:54.279 that's cut completely different from the theatrical version that completely 540 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:58.279 changes a little bit of that for me. And this 541 00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:01.000 is right around now where we're talking about Tiberias of 542 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:03.920 Nerva and I'm glad that there is more Nerva. I 543 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:09.079 actually understand why he's there more in this cut as 544 00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:13.400 opposed to the theatrical version. But the thing that I miss, 545 00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:19.200 because I'm so used to theatrical version, is where McDowell's like, Nerva, 546 00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:22.119 what's going on? Where he's like this little kid and 547 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:24.279 he's all excited that this guy's dying and is do 548 00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:27.000 you see isis? Is she coming for you? And he's 549 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:30.880 all very excited about experiencing death by proxy through this guy, 550 00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.160 which again also ties into what I was saying before 551 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:36.640 about the bully who wants to be offed by someone, 552 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:39.880 where he's like, oh, tell me about it, And in 553 00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:43.559 this version he's much more serious. He's not as in 554 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.680 that child space. He's not in that Alex space. This 555 00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:48.960 is what I would call it, where he's so excited 556 00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:53.279 by misdeeds and horribleness, and it's like he's getting all 557 00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:55.400 excited by wha real horror show. 558 00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.599 And I'm not exactly sure why that scene is missing. 559 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:03.519 There's a couple theories that I have. One is that 560 00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:07.279 there's something in the opening scroll that says none of 561 00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:11.160 these shots have ever been seen before, which I disagree 562 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:13.480 with because there's a couple shots. I was watching this 563 00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:16.640 with ultimate cut on the TV and then one of 564 00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:18.839 the older versions on my laptop, and there were a 565 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:20.960 couple times I was like, Okay, these SYNCD up pretty 566 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.359 good because I had to keep fast forwarding rewinding, and 567 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:25.839 then eventually I would find like a sink point. But 568 00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:28.279 it was interesting. It was like, rather than a close up, 569 00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:30.960 I'm seeing a long shot rather than a medium shot, 570 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:33.839 I'm seeing an extreme close up rather than from this angle, 571 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.880 I'm seeing it from that angle. But maybe they didn't 572 00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:40.440 have other angles for the Nerva suicide scene, because we 573 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:42.759 do get the first part of the suicide scene, which 574 00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:46.400 Alexander told us about from Mission Caligula. Now we get 575 00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:48.680 to see that, but we don't get that scene that 576 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.400 you're talking about, Like you just said, we don't get 577 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:54.200 that whole Oh do you see isis? And my theory 578 00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:58.960 is one maybe that's because Nagovin's gone on record saying 579 00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:02.680 we can't show oh colegular murdering somebody at that point, 580 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:06.680 because he eventually just pushes nerve it down. It's interesting 581 00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:08.920 in the script, though, the at least the October twenty, 582 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:13.319 nineteen seventy five script, he and that scene is in there, 583 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:16.279 and he instead of pushing Nerve it down, he kicks 584 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:18.079 him in the head. But by that point Nerv is 585 00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:20.880 already dead and he just slides into the pool. So 586 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:25.279 I'm looking at the July seventy sixth script and I'm 587 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:28.319 still seeing that. Tell me about isis scene, because I 588 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:32.440 thought maybe Nagovin was just really stuck to I'm only 589 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:36.119 going to follow this script because it's definitely shorter. The 590 00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:39.079 July one is one hundred and thirty eight pages, whereas 591 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:43.440 the seventy five October one is one hundred and ninety pages, 592 00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.000 which is closer to the running time of what this 593 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:49.200 movie is now, which is what two hours and fifty 594 00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:49.880 seven minutes. 595 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.759 I think there was some audio stuff that they had 596 00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:57.680 to finagle with as far as what they had access 597 00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.640 to with this building the ultimate cut, and I know 598 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:03.039 there were like some certain audio issues, particularly with the 599 00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:06.680 Nerva see because I think, you know, I'm a little rusty, 600 00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.279 I'm when I read this interview, but I feel like 601 00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:09.759 they had to use a little bit of AI. 602 00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:11.720 To clean out I did, yes, which. 603 00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:13.799 I don't feel great about. I'm not a fan of it, 604 00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:16.759 but as a whole, and I think it's a complete 605 00:33:16.759 --> 00:33:19.960 scourge to the arts. But that's not saying thing about 606 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:22.319 this film. But what but I guess it makes I 607 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.400 guess I could see that that was the audio foles 608 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:26.920 that they had, or the audio rules that they had 609 00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:29.359 access to, because if you watch the group of COACCIONI 610 00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:32.079 cut either any of them, the audio seems fine in 611 00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:34.200 their minner. I don't have a problem with it at all. 612 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.599 But it was the new stuff is what they had 613 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.079 problems with the sound. 614 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:41.039 So that might be why. That's also maybe that was 615 00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:44.119 just like a section that was just ungovernable as far 616 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:45.880 would be my guest, just because I know they were 617 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:47.839 having audio issues with that sequence. 618 00:33:48.759 --> 00:33:52.799 Here's Thomas Negavin from a Century Guild podcast. 619 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:59.680 The audio clean up process. So Italian stages. Funnily enough, 620 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:01.920 this is something Malcolm had talked about in an interview, 621 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:04.319 that he'd be doing a really intense take and then 622 00:34:04.359 --> 00:34:09.519 he'd hear's someone curse in the background because of the 623 00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:12.639 machine ran over their foot or something. And so what 624 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:17.440 basically happened on Italian sets is they never intended to 625 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:22.440 use location audio. Now, the problem is they were building 626 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:26.199 sets while they were filming, and so one of the 627 00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.400 problems with that is that you'll have someone working and 628 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.519 there's hammering in the background. So that's not a noise 629 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.360 reduction solution, and it's not even something that you could 630 00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:41.719 really do with precise editing. You probably couldn't to some degree, 631 00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:44.280 but it would take forever and be really complicated. Some 632 00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:49.719 of the things that happened with AI technology that Peter 633 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:53.960 Jackson was using for get Back that allowed the computer 634 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:59.119 learning to separate human voice from its surroundings. It's not 635 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.599 noise reduction. It's not a frequency like it was literally 636 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:08.079 sculpting pieces. The scene with John Gielgood in the bath 637 00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:11.920 was a scene that I thought, that's the one we're 638 00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:13.960 going to make the excuses for. We're going to have 639 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.159 to put a disclaimer at the front end saying this 640 00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:20.239 was made from blah blah blah sources. And by the 641 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.039 end of this thing, the length of time that it 642 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:29.280 took just that last year, the technology changed so much 643 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:33.679 that we were able to get his voice sounding immaculate. 644 00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:39.719 And the Irony Kevin was our audio magician on this, 645 00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:42.360 and he said this to me, this was his idea 646 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.440 that I'm sharing. It's really funny. That was the worst 647 00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:48.199 sounding scene and now at the end, it's that's the 648 00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:49.360 best sounding scene. 649 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.199 It just feels like it cuts at a weird spot 650 00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:56.599 after that initial conversation and before the nerva. Do you 651 00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.280 see isis part? It's almost like a quick fade out, Yeah, 652 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.639 that might be it exactly. And I'm with you as 653 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:07.199 far as like making things with AI, and but I 654 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.559 use AI all the time with some of the stuff 655 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:13.119 that I do, especially like finding ums and US and 656 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:16.280 removing those from speech like that is now a thing 657 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:18.840 that I can do with AI. So it makes my 658 00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:21.760 life a lot easier because I'm in quite a bit 659 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:25.159 and I'm curious to see what AI is going to 660 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.360 do to this section as I'm purposefully sticking in ums 661 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:29.079 and US. 662 00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.079 I will say this, like Nick Govin and his editor 663 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:34.599 Aaron Shops, they worked very hard on this cut and 664 00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:38.280 it shows, and they're very transparent about what was used 665 00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:40.239 because the only I know, the only I think, the 666 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:43.400 only the major digital thing they really did was there 667 00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:45.880 are some things that got a little fleshed out, the 668 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.039 ale of Capri things the most obvious with the exterior 669 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:52.360 of it, because that's not in any version. And there 670 00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:53.880 were some some of the sets where they said you 671 00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:58.119 could see in the raw footage just black or the sets, 672 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.639 the set is ending and it wasn't finished because those 673 00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:05.480 that design that film, it's amazing it got made. When 674 00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.440 you read about the making of Curricula, I don't think 675 00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:11.760 the film probably personally, I don't think it needs it. 676 00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:13.639 But it doesn't hurt it. 677 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:14.639 No, it doesn't. 678 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:16.639 So my cents. 679 00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:21.840 Here's Thomas Negavin and Aaron Shapps from a Century Guild podcast. 680 00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:26.119 The work that we did digitally was for Danillo Donati. 681 00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:31.559 So when people that are choosing to be negative about 682 00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.239 it are saying, why would you go in and do that, 683 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:38.960 it's because we respect that set designers so much. We 684 00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:41.679 know he didn't get a chance to finish. You see 685 00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:44.000 the quality and then you see right where it ends. 686 00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.519 One thing that we saw on you may have noticed 687 00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:51.920 if you've seen the theatrical cut, there are really no 688 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:58.239 exterior establishing shots of any location whatsoever. And in the 689 00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:02.239 seventies that would have been done using matte paintings. Instead 690 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:04.639 of doing that, there were a couple instances where we 691 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:08.480 wanted an establishing shot outside and so that was created digitally. 692 00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:10.559 It would have just been a mate painting had we 693 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:13.280 done it in the seventies, That's how they would have 694 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:16.000 done it. For one in particular, what we were able 695 00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:17.519 to do is we wanted. 696 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:23.119 An establishing shots before you get to peter o'tooles Tiberius's villa, 697 00:38:23.800 --> 00:38:27.599 and our effects guy John He was able to actually 698 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:32.480 take an image of what the coasts of Italy would 699 00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:37.079 look like from Capri and create a digital essentially a. 700 00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:41.400 Digital matte painting with that. So again, really it's just 701 00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:45.559 a matter of either completing sets that Denillo didn't have 702 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:48.280 a chance to complete because of the insane shooting schedule 703 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.920 and how behind everything was from day one, or just 704 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:57.400 an establishing shots. We haven't tinkered digitally with anything, just 705 00:38:57.519 --> 00:38:58.719 completed things that we're in. 706 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:02.639 Aren't fans of the Tiberias? Did you guys at least 707 00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:06.480 enjoy the seeing jammelis the little does? Is it just me? 708 00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:11.679 Jameli's looks like the Luchota of Vesconte death and Venice kid. 709 00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:14.960 Yeah, the most beautiful boy in the world. Isn't that 710 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:16.400 the documentary about that kid? 711 00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:17.440 Yes? 712 00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:20.639 I hope that they documentary looks really good. I still 713 00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:21.199 need to see it. 714 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:22.880 Yeah, I'd like to see that myself too. 715 00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:25.239 It looks good, But I thought, Jamella is like, there's 716 00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:27.599 the thing that casting in this film is because even 717 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:29.960 with like the like more minor players like cam Like, 718 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.239 everybody's so striking and everybody just fits their parts so perfectly, 719 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.239 like this poor You see this kid and he looks 720 00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:37.599 like death than Venice kid. 721 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:40.320 But more sickly, and you just you're like this poor 722 00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:42.800 kid like he is, I don't feel like he's had it. 723 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:45.400 He's had it a little better than Caligula, but he 724 00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.239 had Look at Tiberius, is this guy's not a guardian? 725 00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:49.400 Like? 726 00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:52.559 I wouldn't let this man near Mike houseplants? 727 00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:55.400 Oh yeah, my little house plants? 728 00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:55.920 So are you? 729 00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:00.599 Would you like to drink my little house plants? Dance 730 00:40:01.400 --> 00:40:04.679 dance for me? My little house plants entertained me. 731 00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:08.760 I had the weird the women with the babies, and 732 00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:10.840 the just it's so. 733 00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:14.039 Reminded me of Fury round with the Morton Joe and 734 00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:16.639 all of his mother's there and pumping all the milk. 735 00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:20.440 Oh my god. Yeah, Tiberius makes the Morton Joe look 736 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:25.480 like Tony danz On, who's the boss? I will say, 737 00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:28.119 I wish we did get more John Gilgood, but I 738 00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:29.599 love it. Mike that you point out tho at least 739 00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:31.760 we get a little more of him. Yeah, and this, 740 00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:37.159 and also Gilgood has the best quotes, the two best 741 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:39.440 quotes I have seen about this movie that's not from 742 00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:43.559 Tinto himself because one of them, and perversely Penthouse useless 743 00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:46.199 in their press releases, which I find sets because he 744 00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:49.719 said I've known coffins that were warmer than Roman bats, 745 00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:52.639 which is one of Also, he was I think the 746 00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:55.599 only major mainstream actors that were okay with the X 747 00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:59.039 rated stuff. Helen Mirren had very funny attitude about it. 748 00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:00.920 Can we all she's got? We'll get into hurt a 749 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:04.039 little bit, but God bless Helen Man. But also John, 750 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:06.119 you look Good ran into beca mcdowas while start but 751 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:08.679 running into him and he's own Malcolm. It's wonderful. I'm 752 00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:12.960 in a polo. I've seen it three times, that you 753 00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:15.559 look good body. It was just hilarious. He loved it. 754 00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:19.960 He was so chuffed about being in a dirty movie. 755 00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:26.199 Now that's a trooper like divine and John Gilgod, oh, 756 00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:27.719 sir John Golgod, excuse me. 757 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.000 Think about when it was made stage nudity at that point, 758 00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:33.920 was you know what you had harryet O Calcutta. You 759 00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:37.320 had Maroth's sod and then you had the whole free 760 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:40.360 love hangover, so this was still part of that. People 761 00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:43.400 really didn't start getting really conservative until Reagan came in 762 00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.800 to a certain extent and Thatcher. So this was before 763 00:41:46.840 --> 00:41:50.440 all that. People were still in that exuberant surround, I think. 764 00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:53.599 Especially because they weren't the ones actually doing the sex too, 765 00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:57.039 because that double standard never has never sadly gone away. 766 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.760 This is hads Harry Reems almost getting grease and then 767 00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.599 replacing him with said Caesar, like I couldn't hate greats 768 00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:08.559 anymore than already do. Peter O'Toole is very hammy here, 769 00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:13.039 but it's but it's perfect, It's perfect. He looks like 770 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:15.800 he loved it so much. I could see him being like, 771 00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:17.639 I need another stiphanitic soul. 772 00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:21.840 It would have reminded me of his performance in here, 773 00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:25.039 probably the closest performance I've seen of his. It's like 774 00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:27.920 this in this era would have been ruling class, where 775 00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:31.239 he's just unhinged. And you know, it feels like if 776 00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:36.239 McDowell is leveraging Alex from a clockwork, Orange o'tooles leveraging 777 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:37.239 his character from the group. 778 00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:43.199 I love that. I love it so much. Yeah, that's yeah, 779 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:45.199 it's such a gem. And I look back to that 780 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.599 plays Macro. I won't go to much of him because 781 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:50.199 it's to the commentary huh, but he has such a grass. 782 00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.519 He looks like who you would cast in that role. Like, 783 00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:58.239 he looks very strong and trustworthy, and he's very economic 784 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:01.320 and condensed and his bossuage. This is a guy that 785 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.000 physically is always thinking and being on top of shit. 786 00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.320 It's such as I'm glad we're talking about Thistuf. I 787 00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:09.320 feel like there's a lot of smaller performances that get 788 00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:13.440 overshadowed by this movie, and it's infamy that these that 789 00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:14.440 should get praised. 790 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.320 It's very controlled, and it goes with the idea of 791 00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:19.880 him being military, like that fits so well. And that 792 00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:21.239 was one of the things that I put in the 793 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:24.719 notes here about, like you were saying, those smaller characters 794 00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:26.800 in this version, we get them more fleshed out. So, 795 00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:31.400 for example, I think Macro and Longinis in here we 796 00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:33.920 really get the sense of them being put under by 797 00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:37.880 Caligula more than in theatrical version. Like in theatrical version, 798 00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:39.920 it's he just keeps telling them to do shit. But 799 00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:43.119 in here there's like a lot of there's like size 800 00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:46.199 and side eyes, and ah Jesus, you can tell that 801 00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:49.119 they're just tired of putting up with his shit, and 802 00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:52.199 it gets more obvious as you get further along. And 803 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:56.840 that's what I think is those side characters, those smaller characters, 804 00:43:56.880 --> 00:44:01.519 really help to really pave his end. That you can 805 00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:04.320 read them more now than you could in the other version. 806 00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.440 They were there, but they we didn't get the sense 807 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:09.599 that they were put upon as much as they are 808 00:44:09.639 --> 00:44:10.280 in this version. 809 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:15.119 Going back to that first Collegular episode we did, I 810 00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:20.199 could hear, and I remember they didn't understand the movie. 811 00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:22.559 I didn't know what the hell was going on. There 812 00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:24.719 was that whole thing I'm talking about in that episode 813 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.960 about his beard and how his beard's there. Sometimes it disappears, 814 00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.280 other times it's because it was all fucking out of order. 815 00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:34.320 I'm not surprised I didn't understand it. I had nothing 816 00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:39.079 to latch onto. It was a confusing film. Stuff that 817 00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:40.960 was in the middle was at the beginning and vice verse, 818 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:43.519 and I'm just like, what the hell's going on? This 819 00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.920 version of it lets me have a story, and it 820 00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:51.079 does remove we said it's almost three hours long for 821 00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:54.320 lack of just for quickness, we'll say three hours long. 822 00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:59.440 And you understand what's happening. You get to introductions of 823 00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:03.280 these character, you get arcs of these characters. You see 824 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:07.079 Nerva before he commits suicide instead of just a few 825 00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:10.280 seconds of them. You get what Macro's doing, what he's 826 00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:13.360 what's happening with his wife. You get more when it 827 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:17.000 comes to which guards are are hurting other people, and 828 00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:19.760 what's happening with Proculus and then his soon to be 829 00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.760 wife and all this. I'm just like, oh, I understand now. 830 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:25.239 This was like a revelation to me to be able 831 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:28.800 to actually follow the story, because I will be honest, 832 00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:32.159 I could not follow that original version whatsoever. 833 00:45:33.079 --> 00:45:35.960 You brought up the Proculus and Lydia Pish in here. 834 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:38.119 We get that Bill, Yeah. 835 00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:40.639 Yeah, well we get them throughout this whole movie. Yeah, 836 00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:41.039 which was. 837 00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:43.920 Great, right, so that when you get to the wedding scene, 838 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:47.719 it's even more like sadistic because you think, oh, he's 839 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:49.519 just weird and he's just going to go do this thing, 840 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:52.599 and you can actually see the plotting. It's oh, he's 841 00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:54.159 introduced to him there and then he says a little 842 00:45:54.159 --> 00:45:55.519 thing to him there, and then he says something to 843 00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:57.880 him there and then bam, he's I'm here for your 844 00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:01.320 wedding gift. So there's like half of that is cut 845 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:04.679 out of the theatrical version, and I think I can't 846 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:09.039 remember timing wise, if this version of the actual scene 847 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:12.400 itself is longer, it sure as hell fell longer, and 848 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:16.199 that it's one of those things where it's I want 849 00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:18.280 this to be painful for you as I view, want 850 00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:22.599 you to realize how fucking horrible this person is now. 851 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.440 And I can't remember. Do we get to see the 852 00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:28.719 fate of Proculus in this version? I don't think we do. 853 00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:31.360 I don't think we see him hung up and like 854 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:34.119 he's in that almost like puppet show type thing. 855 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:35.800 I feel like that's in there? 856 00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:36.480 Is it in there? 857 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:39.320 That's what I was saying at the beginning. I'm not 858 00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:42.239 going to make any claims. I'm gonna I've got a 859 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:44.239 version of it up, so fast forward and see if 860 00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:44.960 I can find that. 861 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.760 Yeah, because that's and this is the beauty of doing 862 00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:54.039 this film that it's various, kuy is. It gets hot 863 00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:56.760 and heady, and especially when you start going into international, 864 00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:58.639 that's actually the cool thing, not the and I'm not 865 00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:01.280 doing this a plug. Thing with the Umbrella is they 866 00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:04.000 actually are having like some of the foreign cuts because 867 00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:07.480 like they're like the Australian release obviously dismissing some of 868 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.239 the works righted stuff and it was missing other stuff, 869 00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:13.079 but then had scenes that were in no other versions 870 00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:16.880 that weren't in the US versions, that weren't here. It's fascinating. 871 00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:20.239 But this is why GOP bless people Alexander and and 872 00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:23.800 Thomas and there for having to make take this bounty, 873 00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:30.360 this cornucopia of beautiful mess and try to make sense 874 00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:33.800 of it because it's there's so much great stuff there. 875 00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:36.239 It's just trying to And I don't think I even 876 00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:40.199 fully realized how out of sorts the cut that I 877 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.280 was used to the X ray the atrical cut until 878 00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:48.079 I started researching both Mission Caligula and then especially diving 879 00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:50.280 into the ultimate cut. And then when you go back 880 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:53.360 to the Gucciani one, you're like, holy shit, some of 881 00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:57.639 this is it's almost it borders on random, and there's 882 00:47:57.679 --> 00:47:59.760 still good stuff in there. But then you can see 883 00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:04.480 we're the Guccioni corner pit house lens for lack of 884 00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:06.519 a better term, is coming in there with except that 885 00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:10.119 the nymph footage and that pastoral with the misty fog. 886 00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:14.039 Some of that is some of those gorgeous visual stuff 887 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:16.320 in the whole film, like with with Drew Silla and 888 00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:19.400 Cligula running around and being playful, but the nymphs it 889 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:21.480 gets a little too Okay, is this about to turn 890 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:24.800 into a loop com Damn Bob, calm down. Okay. 891 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:27.079 This is one of the things that I wrote in 892 00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:28.719 my notes and I talked I think a little bit 893 00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:30.280 about this in one of the previous episodes. 894 00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:31.880 But can we look at the. 895 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:35.840 Three main men of porn in that horn publishers in 896 00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:39.239 that era, right, So you had Hefner and Playboy, you 897 00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:42.760 had Guccioni and Penthouse, and you had Larry Flinton Hussler. Okay, 898 00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:46.400 So when I look at this movie, this is a 899 00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:50.000 movie that only Guccioni could make. And there's several things 900 00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:53.760 that like esthetically connected to those to his magazine and 901 00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:56.199 like you were talking about, like the nymph stuff and 902 00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.760 all of that, and like him trying to elevate this 903 00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:03.599 to like some gauzy, gaudy art because really, like Hefner, 904 00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:06.880 like all three of them were raised in some sort 905 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:09.639 of culture and some sort of religious background. But the 906 00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:11.199 thing is that, as far as I know, they all 907 00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:14.719 threw it off. Larry Flint had his evangelical era that ended, 908 00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:16.679 and then he became more of an antithist and even 909 00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:20.159 an atheist to be honest. But Larry Flint was always 910 00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:22.800 very working class. It was always like, what would the 911 00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:23.519 truckers like? 912 00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:23.920 To see? 913 00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:26.559 What can I give the truckers? That's what Hustler was 914 00:49:26.599 --> 00:49:30.360 all about. Hefner just wanted to make basically esquire with 915 00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:33.639 naked ladies. That was his thing, and he was very 916 00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:38.320 waspy in his aesthetic. So you get Guccioni, who's Italian background, 917 00:49:38.440 --> 00:49:40.920 raised in the church, and you look at this and 918 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:46.480 you go, this feels like somebody with that background of 919 00:49:46.599 --> 00:49:50.320 going to these churches with saints and everything that is 920 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:55.119 Catholicism written large in its design. And then of course 921 00:49:55.159 --> 00:49:57.400 there's that connection obviously with the Roman Empire and then 922 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.239 eventually what became the Roman Catholic Church. But it's just 923 00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:05.079 even his magazine has the exact same esthetic of just 924 00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:09.559 over the top gauzyness to it that when I was 925 00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.079 young growing up, I couldn't relate to it as much 926 00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:14.199 like it was just it was trying to be too 927 00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:17.000 pretty and downscale. It's say it was a weird mix. 928 00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:18.800 I don't know if you ever because I worked in 929 00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.320 a bookstore where we sold all kinds of books, but 930 00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:23.800 we obviously had these magazines. You could lay them out 931 00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:25.760 and even if I didn't tell you which one they 932 00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:28.280 were from, I'd be like, Okay, which photo is from 933 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:30.440 which magazine? You could always tell. 934 00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:33.639 This is so fascy because I knew. I've actually known 935 00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:38.239 plenty of guys that preferred Penthouse over Playboy and Hustler 936 00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:40.800 for that because at one time I remember even an 937 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:42.679 ex on nine years and years ago, I've ever been like, 938 00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:44.960 oh I love Larry Flant that I am. I have 939 00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:47.280 a Larry girl through and through, but it was like, 940 00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:51.159 oh God, and yeah, I get it. Hustlers but more gynecological, 941 00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:54.239 but goocchierny style. And he does have a distinctive style, 942 00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:57.280 and I think some of it is very is very lovely. 943 00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:00.440 The seventies were very that era of that gauze look 944 00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:02.760 though too you look at just Shake and with the 945 00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:05.480 fashion photography, but then going into Emmanuel, I feel like 946 00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:08.440 Emmanuel has that look. His ver story of THEO or 947 00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:11.880 all of its flaws. It has that too. The work 948 00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:14.960 of David Hambleton has that. Look, we won't go into that, 949 00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:17.880 but I'm sure him a type period. It's all I'm sorry, 950 00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:20.760 I just didn't have made that tire. But but it's 951 00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:23.199 such a but it is. I can see why he 952 00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:27.440 if he could have just let be because Petrous actually 953 00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.360 had a production credit on films before this, Benhill says, 954 00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:33.400 a production credit on Day of the Locusts, and which 955 00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:35.440 thank god he didn't mess with it. He imagined try 956 00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:40.840 being like, I need more sexy ladies and David the locust. 957 00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:45.199 Yeah right, it's nineteen thirties California. Give me more gus 958 00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:46.960 on the legt. 959 00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:48.800 I need more lesbians, but they got to be pretty. 960 00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:52.719 I don't want that pretty lady in lesbians. But I 961 00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:54.719 don't know why I have him talking like that. But 962 00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:57.960 and yeah, the thing with Tinto, and this is why 963 00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:02.920 it will always buffel because Tinto Brass before Caligula was considered 964 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:05.320 art house, and he is art house. I will die 965 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:09.599 on that hill because Selon Kitty is art house. It 966 00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:12.880 gets sometimes now labeled as Nazi PlayStation. If you watch it, 967 00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:17.840 it's art house. And at Tinto is a creative anarchist. 968 00:52:18.199 --> 00:52:22.559 He is an art anarchist. Sexuality is anarchy, especially when 969 00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:25.280 you were somebody who was raised in an era of 970 00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:29.960 extreme repression and religious repression and political repression like you 971 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:32.679 were in Italy, and especially the time period that Tinto 972 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:36.360 grew up. He before all of this, had his film's 973 00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:40.559 victim of censorship. He had weathered all that, and to me, 974 00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:46.000 it's just he is a true artist and GUCCIONI it 975 00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:48.519 was an artist. I'm not going to say he wasn't, 976 00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:50.920 but it could not. He couldn't get its little fingers 977 00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:51.840 out of a cookie jar. 978 00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:56.039 I did subject myself Mike, to going back and watching 979 00:52:56.199 --> 00:53:00.519 the GUCCIONI coach against this one, and it became very obvious, 980 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:05.079 which part because before it felt a bit more integrated 981 00:53:05.079 --> 00:53:07.199 in my mind. I don't know why, but they just did. 982 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:10.119 And when I watched it this time, I go, oh, okay, 983 00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.199 I see it now. I'm like, I see what's going 984 00:53:13.239 --> 00:53:16.559 on now, I see what he was doing. So it 985 00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:20.679 became much more obvious on a new viewing after I 986 00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:25.719 watched this new edit, just how much GUCCIONI okay, slow 987 00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:28.519 most shot of someone like their ass coming out of 988 00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:31.000 the water okay, give me that, and then like the 989 00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:33.599 ladies behind the wall looking in on them and all 990 00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:36.679 of just all of this stuff. You can see it now, 991 00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:38.000 you can see it so much more. 992 00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:41.559 I actually had somebody responded me on Twitter when Umbrella 993 00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:45.440 announces beeing like oh no nudity or sex, no thank you, 994 00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:49.280 and it's dude, it's still calligulut. Okay, there's still plenty 995 00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:52.360 of craziness going on. And in fact, there's still the 996 00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:55.719 whole Temple of Iso scene. You still see a lot 997 00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:59.039 of the pets in that. And I so bad for 998 00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:03.440 the Penthouse that because it's like GUCCIONI basically promised him, 999 00:54:03.519 --> 00:54:06.559 you go, your actresses, you're gonna be in this big film, 1000 00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:09.719 and they were, but he didn't. He wasn't transparent with 1001 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:13.000 them about any of the explicit stuff. And that's shady. 1002 00:54:13.079 --> 00:54:16.000 That's shady, and that's the thing. Those girls, particularly like 1003 00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:21.199 Anika de Lorenzo and Lorian Wegner, they suffered the reputations. 1004 00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:24.159 I know Anika sued him, I think two or three times. 1005 00:54:24.159 --> 00:54:27.880 There's something she seared him a lot, and I get it. 1006 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:30.639 It's funny, Larry, out of all three of those guys 1007 00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:34.440 ended up, I think having the cleanest reptas so guy 1008 00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:37.280 because god Dare's like after Happner have a few guys 1009 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:40.119 have seeing him the secrets of Playboy stuff. But yeah, 1010 00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:40.800 it's not good. 1011 00:54:41.320 --> 00:54:44.000 It shows the dirtiest among them was the cleanest. Actually, 1012 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:45.960 the dirtiest among them would have been well, if you 1013 00:54:46.039 --> 00:54:49.639 go to the Four Horsemen of published Goldstein. Yeah, but 1014 00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:54.000 Goldstein's for secondary tier in certain ways. But Flint his 1015 00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:57.320 stuff was always more in your face. And I find 1016 00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:59.320 it funny that as you were saying that, he ends 1017 00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:02.079 up being just like ethical. 1018 00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:04.320 And even Al wasn't. I feel like Al gold Zee 1019 00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:08.880 still looks better retrospectively. Screw had that great political pro 1020 00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:12.760 punk attitude and he was very like he was like 1021 00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:16.000 openly bisexual. He brought that brought that stuff in the 1022 00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:19.360 early seventies and when Review gave films and so I'm 1023 00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:21.840 totally I'm an Al gold see Larry flat Girl, you 1024 00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:24.719 go to the two majors, things start getting a lot. 1025 00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:26.559 I think part of it too, is that I think 1026 00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:29.800 if Al and Larry never acted like they were perfect, 1027 00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:31.639 they would both the must go out of their way 1028 00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:35.199 to show all of their flaws in humanity. And I 1029 00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:37.840 always trust people more than do that. Anybody tries to 1030 00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:41.199 act well, I'm above that. Watch your ass because it's 1031 00:55:41.239 --> 00:55:44.119 gonna get stupid and it's gonna get leath the. 1032 00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:47.480 New did they that your Twitter follower was objecting to 1033 00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:50.480 or the sex was? It was just so tacked out 1034 00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:55.320 just going back, And though I didn't rewatch the original 1035 00:55:55.559 --> 00:55:58.800 Guccione version of it, I have watched all these other 1036 00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:01.960 deleted scenes and extras and all this stuff, and listening 1037 00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:05.400 to our original episodes, I forgot about things like there's 1038 00:56:05.480 --> 00:56:12.599 that sun statue or placard in Caligula's room and he 1039 00:56:12.679 --> 00:56:14.440 goes up to at one point and looks through it, 1040 00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:16.960 and then in the Guccione version they cut to what's 1041 00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:20.039 on the other side, and it's these two girls looking 1042 00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:22.639 through the other side and they just start making out 1043 00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:26.320 and having sex. It's like one of those and maybe 1044 00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:29.360 people will remember this, maybe they don't. But lesbian scenes 1045 00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:33.599 imporn in the seventies, eighties, nineties was so easy because 1046 00:56:33.639 --> 00:56:35.280 he didn't have to worry about a cumshut. You could 1047 00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:38.440 just have these two girls making out for hours. It 1048 00:56:38.440 --> 00:56:41.440 felt just put on your favorite lesbian foreign scene. Go 1049 00:56:41.559 --> 00:56:44.039 do some laundry, comeback, don't worry they'll still be at it, 1050 00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:46.000 and it just felt like one of those. And then 1051 00:56:46.039 --> 00:56:48.400 some of the other sex scenes where it's like, oh, 1052 00:56:48.440 --> 00:56:51.199 we're on this boat and here's this orgy, but we'll 1053 00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:55.880 just cutting in new things and here's more hardcore footage 1054 00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:58.480 and it's just boring after a while because there just 1055 00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:01.400 wasn't anything to it. I don't know, it just felt 1056 00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:05.559 so unmotivated, even though it's I think Timo Brassan is 1057 00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:08.559 there's a documentary that David Gregory shot and it's called 1058 00:57:08.679 --> 00:57:10.880 Orgy of Power, and his line in there and I 1059 00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:13.760 think he used it even twice, was he was about 1060 00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:16.760 making a movie about an orgy of power, and then 1061 00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:19.719 GUCCIONI was about making a movie about the power of 1062 00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:24.280 an orgy. And I think that's perfectly summing up what 1063 00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:27.960 Guccione's version was versus what we're seeing now with this 1064 00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:29.360 ultimate cut. 1065 00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:32.440 And if there's one thing that changes from a sex 1066 00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:35.920 scene to a non sex scene that talks about this idea, 1067 00:57:36.199 --> 00:57:37.119 and I know you're gonna. 1068 00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:38.559 Be like, what does that have to do with it? 1069 00:57:38.599 --> 00:57:42.960 Is And I can't remember the exact scene, but it's 1070 00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:49.000 Macro's wife and if I remember Guccier version, she's laying 1071 00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:51.719 on like this lounge and there's all these men around 1072 00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:55.920 her jerking off, and then they unload. And in this 1073 00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:58.800 version there's still her with the men around her, but 1074 00:57:58.840 --> 00:58:03.519 that's not in it. But what he does in terms 1075 00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:06.239 of power and I can make you sit here while 1076 00:58:06.280 --> 00:58:10.920 I do this thing is Malcolm McDowell comes in and 1077 00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:12.840 he's in front of them. You don't see him, but 1078 00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:15.400 he's over in the corner taking a pee while he's 1079 00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:19.400 having this conversation with them, which reminded me of the 1080 00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:23.480 stories of LBJ where LBJ would take meetings in the 1081 00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:26.079 bathroom while he took a dump. He would make people 1082 00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:27.760 come in and talk to him while he was on 1083 00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:28.639 the toilet. 1084 00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:31.320 That's Billy, Bob Thornton and Fargo. 1085 00:58:32.119 --> 00:58:35.000 Yeah, And it was his way of going, I don't 1086 00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:37.119 care like you got to sit here and smell my shit, 1087 00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:41.840 oh kind of attitude. So there's the difference between the 1088 00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:44.719 power of orgies and the orgy of r there. 1089 00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.639 It's the Lligula's world. We're all living in it. 1090 00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:51.599 You're talking about the masturbation over Enya and you're talking 1091 00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:53.719 about this peeing scene, and I see all of this 1092 00:58:53.760 --> 00:58:56.280 stuff in my head because I've seen all of these 1093 00:58:56.320 --> 00:58:58.840 shots and I don't know if I've seen them in 1094 00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:02.840 the Guccio neigh vers or just an outtakes, because I've 1095 00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:06.800 watched hours and hours of outtakes that are out there, 1096 00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:09.559 I think on the Imperial Edition, plus in some of 1097 00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:13.679 these documentaries we'll get little clips. My head is reeling 1098 00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:15.960 from Caligula right now, and it's going to take a 1099 00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:19.320 long time to get out of it. And I can't 1100 00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:24.039 even imagine. Alexander talked about ninety six hours worth of 1101 00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:27.199 footage and you just to see these outtakes that go 1102 00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:29.880 on for so long. Oh, here's this woman with a 1103 00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:32.960 swan and she's touching the swan, or here's this woman 1104 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:35.639 with a snake, and you get twenty minutes of this 1105 00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:37.920 type of stuff and it's all just b roll type 1106 00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:39.960 of footage. But it's okay. If they wanted to cut 1107 00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:42.320 into that, they could have. They had that option. But 1108 00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:45.400 as me doing research on this, I'm just like, oh 1109 00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:49.239 my god, I'm calligulid out. My brain is just so 1110 00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:54.039 such mush. I can't even imagine what had either Alexander 1111 00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:56.679 or now with this. Why am I forgetting? Tell me 1112 00:59:56.760 --> 01:00:01.239 the editor's name for Aaron Shaff's version. Yeah, I feel 1113 01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:04.360 bad for Aaron having to sit through all of this footage, 1114 01:00:04.360 --> 01:00:06.360 and I would have felt bad for Alexander having to 1115 01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:09.519 sit through all of this footage, because it just must 1116 01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:12.199 have felt like some sort of Sisapian. 1117 01:00:11.719 --> 01:00:16.000 Task within a short amount of time. Given that footage, 1118 01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:19.239 if somebody took if anybody else took ten years to 1119 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:22.039 piece together, to repiece together with that much raw, I 1120 01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:24.280 don't think anybody would question it. I don't think anybody 1121 01:00:24.280 --> 01:00:26.559 would be like, oh, look at you, what do you 1122 01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:29.760 think this is bleetwood masks tossed. They'd be like, no, 1123 01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:32.119 of course, like that's a lot. So yeah, no, Aaron, 1124 01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:36.360 and I think he did a beautiful job editing this together. Yeah, 1125 01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:39.599 I can't imagine, and I understand because Mike, when I 1126 01:00:39.639 --> 01:00:42.559 finished this is a little inside Baseball. When I finished 1127 01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:45.760 that commentary, I felt like I had run a marathon. 1128 01:00:45.880 --> 01:00:50.519 I bet I felt sapped, and it was a total 1129 01:00:50.599 --> 01:00:52.960 thing of love. I am beyond great Bulay got to 1130 01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:55.119 do it, and I hope anybody that gets to hear 1131 01:00:55.159 --> 01:00:59.400 it enjoys it. Truly, but it and even then, even afterwards, 1132 01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:00.800 there are still things that would come to me where 1133 01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:03.559 I'm like, shit, I didn't get to cover this part 1134 01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:07.280 of that part because there's so many connected layers and 1135 01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:10.960 factors to this story that are just so riveting. Sometimes 1136 01:01:11.079 --> 01:01:13.079 I'm part of my brain is still shit I write 1137 01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:14.920 about this at some point? Should I write about this? 1138 01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:17.920 Does the world need another article about it? Probably not, 1139 01:01:18.440 --> 01:01:22.639 But because there's already a great Rajet's book out there, 1140 01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:24.559 and he's he knows way more about this film than me. 1141 01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:25.000 Yeah. 1142 01:01:25.079 --> 01:01:27.880 Unfortunately, Renjit says that he will now never finish this 1143 01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:31.320 book because this new cut would make him have to 1144 01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:33.639 revisit it, and he's just no, I'm done with that. 1145 01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:37.519 So he's all dedicated my papers to a museum or 1146 01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:40.079 something and someday somebody will be able to read this, 1147 01:01:40.239 --> 01:01:42.559 but he does not plan freshing yet. 1148 01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:42.880 Yeah. 1149 01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:46.599 That is a heartbreak because he he like, when I've 1150 01:01:46.599 --> 01:01:49.480 researched this and just see me about of work, oh god, yeah, 1151 01:01:49.639 --> 01:01:55.400 and and labor he put into that. I was awestruck 1152 01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:59.840 and I was completely floored. And that's a loss. That 1153 01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:02.960 the loss right there, because I hate hearing Matt and 1154 01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:05.639 that's it's almost like I feel like there's a like 1155 01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:07.760 I hate saying curse. I hate it when people going, oh, 1156 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.440 it's a cursed movie, like curse okay, But then there 1157 01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:12.280 are some times where it's almost like God, there is 1158 01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:16.920 like some like sticky substance to Calligula where it's like 1159 01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:21.480 there are people that got hurt, and even after even 1160 01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:23.800 long after that, even long after fact Guccioni being yah, 1161 01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:26.639 there's still that weirdness to it. And then you research 1162 01:02:26.719 --> 01:02:31.719 the history like Franco Russollini Franco got he got just 1163 01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:37.480 as boned by Guccioni as Tito did. Franco Rossaus' respected 1164 01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:40.760 producer one had worked with Arthouse, had worked with Peter 1165 01:02:40.840 --> 01:02:44.280 Palell Pasolini, and then just god, he was one of 1166 01:02:44.280 --> 01:02:47.079 people that ended up having to sue Guccioni. And it's 1167 01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:50.280 just just so many figures. It's not just the Penthouse pets. 1168 01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:54.639 It's all of the major actors ended up being fine. 1169 01:02:55.039 --> 01:02:58.320 I think like they've all done right. Got Helen Mirren 1170 01:02:58.440 --> 01:03:02.079 ended up having this amazing reds which is so cool. 1171 01:03:02.199 --> 01:03:04.000 It's so cool to see like all of us already 1172 01:03:04.039 --> 01:03:06.440 knew because come on, we love Peter Breadaway and we 1173 01:03:06.519 --> 01:03:11.039 know she was hot. Sam thought to Molly that. But 1174 01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:13.880 there's like the side people that never really recovered. In 1175 01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:16.280 some ways, I feel like this film did the Tinto's 1176 01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:19.280 career what you would say maybe le Bett did to 1177 01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:22.719 barad Check. Even though like leb Bette is a brilliant film, 1178 01:03:22.760 --> 01:03:25.480 it's our house's masterpiece, it took him from being a 1179 01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:27.760 very respected art house director to being like, Oh, he's 1180 01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:29.920 a guy that makes fut And I think that's how 1181 01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:32.760 people even researching for this film. I feel like I 1182 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:36.079 would still see not from necessarily the film from Thomas 1183 01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:38.320 or Eric, but other people writing about, Oh, we're so 1184 01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:40.119 glat to have this cut, and they'd almost some of 1185 01:03:40.119 --> 01:03:43.239 this writers would be very dismissive of Tinto and be like, oh, 1186 01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:46.920 softcore porn and it's excuse me, do you research? Did 1187 01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:49.920 you even bother to read as wiki for them trying 1188 01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:52.320 to like the roma softcore porn and there's not rock 1189 01:03:52.360 --> 01:03:55.400 the Rottica. But I think it's important for very watching 1190 01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:59.280 The Ultimate Cut to know the source material and to 1191 01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:03.599 know and respect the artists that built all of these bones. 1192 01:04:03.800 --> 01:04:05.920 I know Thomas and Aaron have talked a lot about 1193 01:04:06.320 --> 01:04:10.199 Danilo Donati the incredible set, and as everybody should, he's 1194 01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:13.440 a genius. But let's give some props Tino Brass. 1195 01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:17.920 Speaking of Passolini, I never made the connection that Paulo 1196 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:22.159 Bonicelli is the one that plays Correa. Who it's him 1197 01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:25.559 John Steiner that we see so much plodding towards the end, 1198 01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:30.199 And that's my boy from a salo, the mister Manja himself, 1199 01:04:30.239 --> 01:04:32.559 the guy that looks a lot like Sebastian Cabot in 1200 01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:34.920 Solo one and twenty Days of Sodom. 1201 01:04:35.679 --> 01:04:36.519 No, I'm kim. 1202 01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:43.400 Sebast He totally looks like mister French to me, I'm sorry, 1203 01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:45.159 at least in that movie. 1204 01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:49.039 Oh God, my next the next time we watched Salah, 1205 01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:52.320 that's gonna be totally in my head. If he did 1206 01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:54.719 an album and Sebastian Cabot did an album, and now 1207 01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:59.679 I'm gonna just picture being songs about eating shit Panja. 1208 01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:00.960 It's about Manja. 1209 01:05:01.039 --> 01:05:04.360 And I did check the proculus on the ropes that 1210 01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:06.679 is not in this version of it. 1211 01:05:06.320 --> 01:05:10.280 Isn't liar, I don't know. I sure did the coming 1212 01:05:10.400 --> 01:05:13.320 seem like I'm getting them switched up now because it's 1213 01:05:14.840 --> 01:05:18.760 this is definitely get all the cuts babies. Actually, an 1214 01:05:18.840 --> 01:05:20.239 umbrella one will have a. 1215 01:05:20.159 --> 01:05:20.840 Lot of cuts. 1216 01:05:22.119 --> 01:05:25.280 I have to thank you Mike for giving enough lead 1217 01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:28.079 time on this, because if I would have had to 1218 01:05:28.119 --> 01:05:30.679 have turned this around, I was planning to rewatch all 1219 01:05:30.679 --> 01:05:32.199 of it, and I was gonna go back and listen 1220 01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:35.119 to the old episodes, like I had to take a 1221 01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:39.599 month off after I get some of that, just because 1222 01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:41.320 if I would have done all that and then we 1223 01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:44.320 would have card it like it's a movie. I don't 1224 01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:47.159 know what's one is sah, but it's a movie. It's 1225 01:05:47.199 --> 01:05:48.320 got stuff in it. 1226 01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:51.400 We see Rob blinking and there's like little help me 1227 01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:55.000 written on the eelids and it's like you're're like wireds 1228 01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:59.559 apping it like it's Johnny God is Gone. That's dark. No, 1229 01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:02.599 that's the But you guys find that the vascat thing. 1230 01:06:02.679 --> 01:06:05.880 Have you ever had a film and it's various iterations 1231 01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:08.400 impact Do you like this? Because I don't think I have. 1232 01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:12.840 That's just such a singular thing to me, This world 1233 01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:16.719 of Caligula, whether it's the Ultimate Cut or the Extra like, 1234 01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:20.880 it's it's a mosaic that's compelling and messy and flawed, 1235 01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:27.119 but it all comes together this just utterly, just extreme way. 1236 01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:31.480 I think Ultimate Cut will assup the other versions, though 1237 01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:34.880 I wish it wouldn't because even though this is called 1238 01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:37.920 the Ultimate cut, and I know ultimate has two very 1239 01:06:38.239 --> 01:06:42.119 mainstream meanings, one being the last thing and the other 1240 01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:45.360 one being all bets are off. Everything is in here. 1241 01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:47.760 It's stuffed to the gills. It is the ultimate, so 1242 01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:51.159 you could go no further, which basically is the exact 1243 01:06:51.159 --> 01:06:54.280 same thing. I hope that this is not the Ultimate cut. 1244 01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:56.920 I hope that there are more cuts to this because 1245 01:06:57.320 --> 01:06:59.079 I would like to see some of those longer scenes. 1246 01:06:59.119 --> 01:07:00.639 I'd like to see some of the stuff that's in 1247 01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:04.639 the Guccione version married with what's in this version. I 1248 01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:07.840 love to your point from earlier, Heather, how clean this 1249 01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:11.320 version is and just how nice it looks. Sometimes the 1250 01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:13.679 music gets a little ponderous. I think this movie is 1251 01:07:13.760 --> 01:07:16.079 really missing a lot of the humor and some of 1252 01:07:16.119 --> 01:07:18.639 the joy of the what would have been in a 1253 01:07:18.719 --> 01:07:21.239 tinto Brass film. One of the things that stuck with 1254 01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:23.840 me that I really didn't like was some of the 1255 01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:26.719 sound effects that they use in here. There's one when 1256 01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:31.039 it's Caligula goes out on the town, he comes back 1257 01:07:31.079 --> 01:07:35.079 and he goes down this there's a slide into the jail. 1258 01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:36.320 Yeah. 1259 01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:39.159 Yeah, there's a woman that slides down the slide and 1260 01:07:39.239 --> 01:07:42.039 she ends up getting I think raped by a dwarf. 1261 01:07:42.679 --> 01:07:45.360 And there's this sound effect that they play and I'm 1262 01:07:45.400 --> 01:07:47.639 just like, oh my god, I've heard this sound effect 1263 01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:51.199 a million times. Why are you using this? So I 1264 01:07:51.239 --> 01:07:53.719 went to a friend of mine who knows a lot 1265 01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:55.920 about sound and I was just like, hey, can you 1266 01:07:56.039 --> 01:07:58.960 recognize this? And he gave me like the whole history 1267 01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:02.760 of the track and stuff. So from what I understand, 1268 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:07.920 it's called three Screams Exterior Close Perspective from volume seven 1269 01:08:08.800 --> 01:08:12.119 of Screams that can be found on the premiere edition 1270 01:08:12.239 --> 01:08:15.960 Volume one by Hollywood Edge. And I'm going to play 1271 01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:19.760 the scream when we put this episode out, and everybody's 1272 01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:21.600 going to recognize it because you've all heard it a 1273 01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:24.399 thousand times. So when that happens in this movie, I'm 1274 01:08:24.479 --> 01:08:26.880 just like, whoa, you just took me way out of it. 1275 01:08:27.560 --> 01:08:28.800 So this is like the Wilhelm. 1276 01:08:28.960 --> 01:08:29.239 It is. 1277 01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:36.079 It's almost like the women's scream Wilhelm. 1278 01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:37.119 My. 1279 01:08:37.319 --> 01:08:39.239 This is why I feel like you were like the 1280 01:08:39.279 --> 01:08:42.560 hold my beer guy to so many researchers, so many 1281 01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:45.760 of our people out of there, because god damn. And 1282 01:08:45.880 --> 01:08:49.039 also a quick side note, obviously because I recorded a 1283 01:08:49.039 --> 01:08:52.279 commentary several months to the point where I was almost like, 1284 01:08:52.279 --> 01:08:54.159 I hope we're going to use it. But I feel 1285 01:08:54.199 --> 01:08:57.039 like Proculus's death wasn't the cut I saw because the 1286 01:08:57.079 --> 01:09:00.520 reason I remember that because I remember making as I 1287 01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:04.039 made a joke at the coppentary because she urinates one 1288 01:09:04.039 --> 01:09:06.479 of the I know it's laur And Wicker's character. I 1289 01:09:06.479 --> 01:09:09.800 remember what her character, this name now she urinated on it. 1290 01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:11.600 She reinates on his dead body. And I made a 1291 01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:13.720 joke because GUCCIONI was a big He was big and 1292 01:09:13.760 --> 01:09:19.239 a pistol. It's fined. I'm not key shaving. But unless 1293 01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:21.439 I just have made that joke so much over the 1294 01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:25.279 years that my memory has complained, which is baby possibility. 1295 01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:27.119 But I feel like I was in the cut I saw. 1296 01:09:27.239 --> 01:09:29.960 So maybe are there different ultimate cuts of the ultimate cut? 1297 01:09:30.079 --> 01:09:32.560 Oh, that's a good question. I'm going to go through 1298 01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:33.600 it one more time. 1299 01:09:34.399 --> 01:09:36.520 That's the pen ultimate cut. 1300 01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:40.279 That wedding scene, the rape at the wedding scene, the 1301 01:09:40.319 --> 01:09:45.000 preman Oca stuff happens almost exactly midway through this cut. 1302 01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:47.439 And I know that because that's where I can start 1303 01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:49.560 with my fast forwarding to go through the rest of 1304 01:09:49.600 --> 01:09:52.840 this and see ol triple check now to make sure 1305 01:09:52.920 --> 01:09:53.680 that's not in there. 1306 01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:56.640 I believe you, I just don't now. I'm just like 1307 01:09:56.680 --> 01:09:59.000 I wish I could go back to that lane and 1308 01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:01.560 I made done with this every five mite out book, 1309 01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:03.920 my old book from that era, and go through it, 1310 01:10:04.039 --> 01:10:05.920 because I would have had that in there. 1311 01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:10.239 The most impact of the Ultimate Cut is in now 1312 01:10:10.319 --> 01:10:14.199 the second half of the film, starting at one thirty. 1313 01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:19.079 You can go through there and things like when Caligula 1314 01:10:19.239 --> 01:10:22.319 is signing the orders. Like one of the most for 1315 01:10:22.399 --> 01:10:25.359 me famous scenes in the guccione version, I'll just call 1316 01:10:25.399 --> 01:10:29.199 it the Gucciono version, was him saying, by the name 1317 01:10:29.279 --> 01:10:31.239 of Caesar and all the centers of her own blah 1318 01:10:31.279 --> 01:10:34.680 blah blah, and he passes the law right, and Jase Stampson, 1319 01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:37.079 he's doing the exact same thing that he saw Tiberius 1320 01:10:37.119 --> 01:10:40.279 doing before, which he wanted to do and thought I 1321 01:10:40.359 --> 01:10:41.960 was going to be a great honor. But then you 1322 01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:44.960 saw how Tiberius was just fucking sick of it. You 1323 01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:47.399 don't get him doing that whole by the power of room, 1324 01:10:47.439 --> 01:10:50.960 but like how he just goes through it ends before 1325 01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:53.399 he starts to get crazy with it. That's when he 1326 01:10:53.479 --> 01:10:57.000 starts to step across the tops of all these recks 1327 01:10:57.039 --> 01:10:59.600 and is doing his little dance across the racks and 1328 01:10:59.600 --> 01:11:03.479 starting to really fuck with Longinis. It really feels like 1329 01:11:03.520 --> 01:11:05.159 in the second half of the movie, it is the 1330 01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:09.319 how can I make long Ginas's life miserable? Which is 1331 01:11:09.399 --> 01:11:11.800 one of the reasons why he gets killed, And yeah, 1332 01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:14.520 that's where you get a lot of these interesting things, 1333 01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:18.640 the birth of his quote unquote son and some of 1334 01:11:18.680 --> 01:11:21.039 these other things you get. One of the things that 1335 01:11:21.119 --> 01:11:23.600 I like in this new version two is the use 1336 01:11:23.640 --> 01:11:27.800 of the bird omen and how that comes back quite often. 1337 01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:30.079 And like you said, Rob, that's in that opening animation 1338 01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:32.399 as well, So you start off with that, but then 1339 01:11:32.439 --> 01:11:35.000 you really carry that through. And that was the thing 1340 01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:37.279 with the Guccioni version is I just didn't feel like 1341 01:11:37.319 --> 01:11:41.600 it knew how to tell a story. These bird moments 1342 01:11:41.640 --> 01:11:45.000 are very important. These are massive omens for him. So 1343 01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:47.560 when he sees the bird at the very beginning after 1344 01:11:47.640 --> 01:11:50.880 the dream sequence, he freaks the fuck out. I'm like, Okay, yeah, 1345 01:11:50.960 --> 01:11:53.680 that makes sense now because it's he's going to see 1346 01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:55.920 a bird before Drusilla dies, and he's going to see 1347 01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:59.680 a bird before he dies. So yeah, that makes a 1348 01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:03.279 lot of sense, and this one just makes sense now 1349 01:12:03.319 --> 01:12:05.800 and I can understand this film. Do I think it's 1350 01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:06.760 the best film. 1351 01:12:06.479 --> 01:12:07.079 In the world. 1352 01:12:07.840 --> 01:12:10.359 No, I think it still has a little bit to 1353 01:12:10.479 --> 01:12:14.000 go before it gets to be even more. It's definitely 1354 01:12:14.039 --> 01:12:15.520 an improvement over what we had. 1355 01:12:16.279 --> 01:12:19.199 The side character you were talking about in the back 1356 01:12:19.199 --> 01:12:21.560 half of the film that comes in is the mute 1357 01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:26.159 Oh yeah, Deef, the mute guard. And how when I 1358 01:12:26.239 --> 01:12:29.960 watched it against the theatrical version, I realized, Oh, this 1359 01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:32.159 character's in there, but he doesn't really interact with him 1360 01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:35.199 that much. He's in a couple of scenes. But within 1361 01:12:35.359 --> 01:12:38.479 this version, you really get a sense that it's almost 1362 01:12:38.600 --> 01:12:42.319 like he builds a friendship with this guy. And that's 1363 01:12:42.399 --> 01:12:46.520 interesting in that while he's destroying everything else around him, 1364 01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:54.439 he's finding companionship with this odd mute character. And it 1365 01:12:54.560 --> 01:12:59.800 just adds more to McDowell's characterization and just the character 1366 01:13:00.079 --> 01:13:02.600 Gill as a hole. So I really love that. That's 1367 01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:04.640 something I really love in this version. That's not that 1368 01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:05.960 wasn't any other versions. 1369 01:13:06.600 --> 01:13:12.680 Malcolm mcdell on Mark Morin's WTF podcast. He was like, Oh, 1370 01:13:13.159 --> 01:13:15.279 it's great. Collan Muhra and she was in the movie 1371 01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:18.239 for fifteen minutes before she's in there an hour now. 1372 01:13:18.640 --> 01:13:21.560 And I feel that's the same for everybody. By removing 1373 01:13:21.680 --> 01:13:24.000 all of the and I hate to use this word 1374 01:13:24.039 --> 01:13:27.159 because I think it's overused, but gratuitous sex, because it 1375 01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:32.039 was gratuitous, unnecessary sex. By removing all of that, it 1376 01:13:32.119 --> 01:13:35.119 gives all of these actors such a time to shine. 1377 01:13:35.279 --> 01:13:36.920 And I'll tell you who else gets a lot of 1378 01:13:36.920 --> 01:13:40.159 screen time that didn't before Incitatus. So finally we get 1379 01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:42.319 to see a lot more of Caligulous Horse, like this 1380 01:13:42.479 --> 01:13:45.720 major thing, the scandal of like him having his horse 1381 01:13:45.800 --> 01:13:48.880 in Congress and are in the Senate and boom, here's 1382 01:13:48.880 --> 01:13:51.680 Incitatas and we get a whole lot more of him, 1383 01:13:51.760 --> 01:13:54.840 and like even Caligula sleeping in bed with them and 1384 01:13:55.159 --> 01:13:57.960 bringing him to all of these parties and yeah, he's 1385 01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:01.399 just he's a major character now, all hail and sata. 1386 01:14:01.560 --> 01:14:07.039 Yeah, yes, justice for Instatas. Give I love so much 1387 01:14:07.079 --> 01:14:09.079 both of you bringing all of this up, because that 1388 01:14:09.279 --> 01:14:11.920 is I think one of the biggest gifts of this cut, 1389 01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:14.159 and there are some gifts in this cut. I'm glad 1390 01:14:14.159 --> 01:14:16.640 it's out there because we are getting more of these performances. 1391 01:14:16.680 --> 01:14:20.039 We're also getting to see more of Landinis Jean Steiner. 1392 01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:22.920 I feel like, does that get enough praise? He was 1393 01:14:22.960 --> 01:14:26.680 a brilliant actor. He's brilliant in this. I love the 1394 01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:30.600 way he SLINKs around and he was great. And he 1395 01:14:30.640 --> 01:14:32.840 was in Salon Kitty if he worked with Tinto off 1396 01:14:32.840 --> 01:14:36.680 and on up until God was it was it perma 1397 01:14:36.680 --> 01:14:38.840 FoST He did a lot. I think now it was 1398 01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:42.479 snack box. But he of course he's also in Mario 1399 01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:47.920 Baba's Shock. He's in Tinebray, which also so is Lorena DiAngelo, 1400 01:14:48.119 --> 01:14:52.920 who's wore Proculus's wife. And it's Steiner's great and from 1401 01:14:52.960 --> 01:14:56.680 all accounts a great guy. Like every even the pets, 1402 01:14:56.760 --> 01:14:59.399 because I've ever seen every floor riper said that one 1403 01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:02.239 of the few this is poor curls cut I do. 1404 01:15:02.319 --> 01:15:04.479 I'm like, also justice for the pets. But one of 1405 01:15:04.479 --> 01:15:07.199 the few people that actually was really warm to them 1406 01:15:07.239 --> 01:15:09.760 was John Steiner, and he had he invited them over 1407 01:15:10.359 --> 01:15:13.199 for dinner to him and his wife's place in Italy 1408 01:15:13.560 --> 01:15:17.159 for dinner. Nothing on toureds, nothing, sort of just being like, hey, 1409 01:15:17.359 --> 01:15:20.399 welcome to Italy. Just and she just said nothing but pracious. 1410 01:15:20.439 --> 01:15:21.079 What a gentleman. 1411 01:15:21.640 --> 01:15:23.760 So John Steyer's the man, we get more of him. 1412 01:15:24.000 --> 01:15:27.399 Of course, mor Heele also something I loved. And this 1413 01:15:27.560 --> 01:15:30.680 was a rarity because even though Teresa and Saboy was 1414 01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:34.319 usually dubbed in almost all of her Italian movie, which 1415 01:15:34.319 --> 01:15:37.119 that was the standard in Italian cinema, is just everybody 1416 01:15:37.199 --> 01:15:37.720 was dubbed. 1417 01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:41.600 That they even recorded on set audio is a remarkable thing. 1418 01:15:42.439 --> 01:15:45.119 Yeah, but we get to hear her actual voice in 1419 01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:50.039 this cut, which she is bizarrely dubbed in the Guccioni one, 1420 01:15:50.079 --> 01:15:54.079 and she's brightish. I can understand dubbing like some of 1421 01:15:54.119 --> 01:15:56.600 the Italian actors because some of them, even the great 1422 01:15:56.800 --> 01:16:01.199 is it Ariana Asti, who's Macro's wife. She brilliant actress, 1423 01:16:01.439 --> 01:16:04.039 has a very respectable career in art. House had to 1424 01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:07.600 speak her lines phonetically English without her language. But is 1425 01:16:07.640 --> 01:16:11.279 this great voice? Her voice is fine? Why she tucked 1426 01:16:11.319 --> 01:16:13.239 in this? It's like when you watch Star Crash and 1427 01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:18.119 it's like, why is Joe Spinea right by Joe. 1428 01:16:19.720 --> 01:16:21.359 That New York thing going on? 1429 01:16:21.640 --> 01:16:22.560 It's gorgeous. 1430 01:16:22.680 --> 01:16:26.079 I know, I know, I love him. That's half the 1431 01:16:26.119 --> 01:16:27.520 ticket is his voice. 1432 01:16:27.760 --> 01:16:32.520 But yeah, his voice is the ticket. Babe, the other half. 1433 01:16:33.039 --> 01:16:34.960 His physicality is fantastic. 1434 01:16:35.560 --> 01:16:39.119 It's everything about Joe. I'm like testice for Joe Spanl now. 1435 01:16:39.159 --> 01:16:41.199 But but it's so cool. And I feel like Teresa 1436 01:16:41.359 --> 01:16:44.920 Savoid is one that gets overlooked, and I think she 1437 01:16:45.079 --> 01:16:48.439 holds her own. I think she really does. Drew Silla, 1438 01:16:48.640 --> 01:16:52.199 she of course lovely look that and nets. Everybody focuses 1439 01:16:52.199 --> 01:16:54.119 on that when you read everything. Oh the girl that 1440 01:16:54.199 --> 01:16:57.319 played I'm China. She was known for playing these nip 1441 01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:01.720 beets in Italy, but she has quiet strength. She is 1442 01:17:01.760 --> 01:17:06.079 totally the rock. Driustilla is that one rock of lot, 1443 01:17:06.279 --> 01:17:09.399 like of the rock of a lot of I'd really 1444 01:17:09.439 --> 01:17:11.600 just say that that Brett Michaels show, Yeah he does. 1445 01:17:11.640 --> 01:17:13.520 This is ridiculous. Why did they Why did I get 1446 01:17:13.560 --> 01:17:16.640 that commentary? It's amazing they let me do anything but 1447 01:17:16.920 --> 01:17:19.720 mentioning Brett Michaels over here. But You'restilla really is like 1448 01:17:19.800 --> 01:17:22.560 the rock and she is definitely. They think the biggest 1449 01:17:22.760 --> 01:17:28.239 thread to sanity were Caligula. And what's interesting is and 1450 01:17:28.279 --> 01:17:31.000 it's you can get that depression here, but it sest 1451 01:17:31.159 --> 01:17:33.560 was a big no no in ancient Rome. I know 1452 01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:35.560 some people are like, oh, those Romans were decadent. The 1453 01:17:35.800 --> 01:17:37.920 decadences depends on how you went to find it, but 1454 01:17:38.600 --> 01:17:41.279 they weren't that decadent. And Sest does a major taboo 1455 01:17:41.279 --> 01:17:44.439 in almost every culture for reasons, which is why she's, yeah, 1456 01:17:44.439 --> 01:17:48.039 we're not going to marry, we're not Egyptian. If it's 1457 01:17:48.520 --> 01:17:51.159 and and it's interest because there's that parallel with Osiris 1458 01:17:51.439 --> 01:17:54.600 and Isis. They give the mythology, they it's an interesting 1459 01:17:54.600 --> 01:17:58.279 the relationship has that Egyptian way. He keeps mentioning Egypt 1460 01:17:58.479 --> 01:18:01.600 and there's a lot of Egyptian and sort of references there, 1461 01:18:01.600 --> 01:18:01.880 which I. 1462 01:18:01.840 --> 01:18:05.199 Think is cool, which in this version feels like there's 1463 01:18:05.239 --> 01:18:09.359 more of it. I remember references in the theatrical Guccioni 1464 01:18:09.439 --> 01:18:11.359 version to Isis and things like that, but it just 1465 01:18:11.359 --> 01:18:14.039 didn't seem like he was that much of an Egypto 1466 01:18:14.119 --> 01:18:16.520 file as he is in here, where he's just, oh, 1467 01:18:16.600 --> 01:18:18.640 Egypt's so great, Maybe I should just move to Egypt. 1468 01:18:18.880 --> 01:18:21.560 Yeah, the whole wedding scene with the Pharaoh and the 1469 01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:24.800 Nubis and all that, and then even when he gains power, 1470 01:18:24.840 --> 01:18:27.560 he's just like, and the worship of Isis shall be legal. 1471 01:18:27.680 --> 01:18:30.680 I'm like, okay, great, Yeah, that wasn't there before. 1472 01:18:31.079 --> 01:18:35.239 And that's completely normal, its historical when that the Romans 1473 01:18:35.239 --> 01:18:37.760 took over everything. They stole the whole pantheon from the Greek, 1474 01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:41.479 so it's like they had a tendency to incorporate all 1475 01:18:41.479 --> 01:18:42.159 this stuff. 1476 01:18:41.920 --> 01:18:44.560 Which makes it so hard when you're playing Jeopardy and 1477 01:18:44.600 --> 01:18:47.800 you think Aries and it's actually Mars and you're like, oh, 1478 01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:52.279 they said Greek and that Roman or vice versa. Yeah, 1479 01:18:52.439 --> 01:18:55.760 same damn guys. 1480 01:18:54.520 --> 01:18:56.600 Same guys, different names exactly. 1481 01:18:56.920 --> 01:19:01.800 So I just triple checked and no, death of Why 1482 01:19:01.840 --> 01:19:05.279 am I blanking on the guy's name Raculus? Death of Proculus? 1483 01:19:05.319 --> 01:19:08.640 And the version that I'm watching right now, which is 1484 01:19:08.680 --> 01:19:11.520 called the Ultimate Cut and it says twenty twenty three 1485 01:19:11.560 --> 01:19:14.199 in Parenz after it, but we'll see. 1486 01:19:14.359 --> 01:19:16.800 So I'm gonna make up. I gotta find that because 1487 01:19:16.840 --> 01:19:20.119 now I'm like, did I again build right? Not to 1488 01:19:20.159 --> 01:19:23.199 keep this? But I god, damn, what is it with 1489 01:19:23.359 --> 01:19:24.039 researching this? 1490 01:19:24.159 --> 01:19:27.199 Fucking they make it impossible for us. 1491 01:19:27.520 --> 01:19:30.039 So you guys mentioned the whole title of the Ultimate 1492 01:19:30.079 --> 01:19:33.600 Cut at this film having the title, do you feel 1493 01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:36.640 like that maybe the hindrance for some people? It's almost 1494 01:19:36.640 --> 01:19:39.159 it's like, how for Coppolo when he made his version Dracula. 1495 01:19:39.199 --> 01:19:41.600 He didn't call it Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula. He called 1496 01:19:41.640 --> 01:19:42.560 it bram Stokers. 1497 01:19:42.840 --> 01:19:45.760 But there was a lawsuit about that, if memory serves, 1498 01:19:45.800 --> 01:19:49.600 that's why he had to call it bram Stokers, and 1499 01:19:49.640 --> 01:19:52.279 that's why they had to call it Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. 1500 01:19:52.600 --> 01:19:55.279 Or it might have just been like, let's do mary 1501 01:19:55.279 --> 01:19:58.000 Shelley's frankensn But I remember there was a lawsuit around 1502 01:19:58.119 --> 01:19:58.920 one of those two. 1503 01:20:00.159 --> 01:20:00.600 Fascinating. 1504 01:20:00.640 --> 01:20:02.359 I didn't know that, But I always had a problem 1505 01:20:02.359 --> 01:20:04.800 with that title personally, even though they're film. That's a 1506 01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:07.680 film I do have some love for, But it's it's 1507 01:20:07.720 --> 01:20:09.880 due that ain't what's that. It can never be star 1508 01:20:10.520 --> 01:20:13.000 He's dead. It's your version, and that's fine. 1509 01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:13.359 That's fine. 1510 01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:16.079 It's always told that whenever they put the author above 1511 01:20:16.119 --> 01:20:20.000 the title, that's a warning every movie that's like the 1512 01:20:20.039 --> 01:20:22.680 title the author, and then that those movies are terrible. 1513 01:20:22.720 --> 01:20:26.640 So the only exception for that rule is John Carpenter's whatever. 1514 01:20:27.439 --> 01:20:29.439 Yeah, but it wasn't a book. I was talking about 1515 01:20:29.439 --> 01:20:31.800 the novelists. That's true, you know, Yeah. 1516 01:20:31.600 --> 01:20:33.840 Because I know Brass had a lot of problems when 1517 01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:36.600 it was like gorve Dal's. But he did make a 1518 01:20:36.600 --> 01:20:39.600 good part. If you take nine directors and all give 1519 01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:42.079 them the same script, you're gonna get nine different movies. 1520 01:20:42.199 --> 01:20:45.520 It's not a writer's medium, it's a director's medium. So 1521 01:20:45.760 --> 01:20:49.640 that's why he was gorby Dal's name off of there. Also, 1522 01:20:50.199 --> 01:20:52.520 I think after a while they were having a pissing match, 1523 01:20:52.600 --> 01:20:56.039 going back to Guccione's love of golden showers. 1524 01:20:56.560 --> 01:21:00.000 Yeah, please have a pissess. 1525 01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:00.800 I would be live it you. 1526 01:21:01.720 --> 01:21:04.840 He's all lay in the tub, go ahead, he did that. 1527 01:21:04.920 --> 01:21:07.439 Man had some plastic in that drack. He was ready. 1528 01:21:07.840 --> 01:21:09.439 He is the boy Scout a p. 1529 01:21:10.920 --> 01:21:11.960 Scouts pes. 1530 01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:17.079 That's also a new band name. But now the Gorviadal 1531 01:21:17.159 --> 01:21:19.479 struggle is definitely thinging. I love him if some of 1532 01:21:19.560 --> 01:21:24.000 Malcolm McDowell's comments about Vidal too, and that script is hilarious. 1533 01:21:24.840 --> 01:21:30.560 It is. It almost made me feel pet bring Verdal's roast. 1534 01:21:30.880 --> 01:21:34.399 I'm going to take a slight jog here speaking of Gorvadale. 1535 01:21:34.479 --> 01:21:36.439 Did you know that there was a Gorfadale biopic? 1536 01:21:37.199 --> 01:21:39.439 I did not know that. Who's playing Garde? 1537 01:21:39.840 --> 01:21:40.640 Kevin Spacey? 1538 01:21:41.159 --> 01:21:41.880 Wow? 1539 01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:46.279 And when all the awfulness of Kevin Spacey came out 1540 01:21:46.760 --> 01:21:50.279 Netflix said, we just bought a fifty million dollar paper. 1541 01:21:50.039 --> 01:21:51.479 Weight dead over there. 1542 01:21:52.239 --> 01:21:54.479 So there was a film that was made, I think 1543 01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:56.399 it was in twenty sixteen or seventeen, and then they 1544 01:21:56.399 --> 01:21:57.119 put it on the shelf. 1545 01:21:57.239 --> 01:22:00.960 So is it right next to Batwoman or Backgirl? 1546 01:22:01.640 --> 01:22:03.439 It seems like it was a tax right off. But 1547 01:22:03.520 --> 01:22:05.800 I've seen images from it, but they're like, yeah, that's 1548 01:22:05.840 --> 01:22:11.079 never getting released. Oh man, wow, because because I guess 1549 01:22:11.119 --> 01:22:15.119 in the screenplay there's some note to Gorvidal and his 1550 01:22:15.720 --> 01:22:18.800 dalliances with young men, and of course Spacey and his 1551 01:22:19.199 --> 01:22:21.039 oh that's awkward. 1552 01:22:21.800 --> 01:22:24.720 There's method acting, and then there's just why it does 1553 01:22:24.800 --> 01:22:27.560 comfort that becomes very loud discomfort. 1554 01:22:27.800 --> 01:22:29.279 I want to know what you guys think about the 1555 01:22:29.399 --> 01:22:31.319 end of this movie, because that was one thing I 1556 01:22:31.399 --> 01:22:33.880 paid attention to quite a bit going back, and I 1557 01:22:33.960 --> 01:22:37.680 guess I rewatched the vital version or the Guccioni version 1558 01:22:38.239 --> 01:22:42.399 via watching it on my screen, so that's why I'm 1559 01:22:42.439 --> 01:22:44.760 also familiar with it. But I was more paying attention 1560 01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:47.079 to the ultimate cut and seeing what the differences were. 1561 01:22:47.560 --> 01:22:51.000 But the end of this I'm okay with it, but 1562 01:22:51.199 --> 01:22:54.840 I really like the end. Some of the end images 1563 01:22:55.119 --> 01:22:58.119 in the Guccioni version. I really enjoy the whole thing 1564 01:22:58.239 --> 01:23:01.199 of the washing of the blood and just like, how 1565 01:23:01.319 --> 01:23:04.960 quickly we're going to cover up this crime. This one 1566 01:23:05.039 --> 01:23:09.079 does have the let's put the crown onto Claudius and 1567 01:23:09.239 --> 01:23:13.199 just oh, hey, al Claudius, and that's pretty much where 1568 01:23:13.239 --> 01:23:15.960 it ends. I really like the whole idea of the 1569 01:23:16.399 --> 01:23:21.439 cleaning up of the colligular crime and then Incitatus coming 1570 01:23:21.479 --> 01:23:23.880 out and running around and then taking off, and I 1571 01:23:23.920 --> 01:23:25.960 was just like, Okay, yeah, I want a little bit more. 1572 01:23:26.000 --> 01:23:28.760 I felt like they could have put both of those together. 1573 01:23:28.880 --> 01:23:31.680 But I don't know if again, if that's I'm only 1574 01:23:31.800 --> 01:23:34.800 using things from this ninety six hours of footage and 1575 01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:37.000 I'm not going to use anything that was used before, 1576 01:23:37.199 --> 01:23:37.520 or what. 1577 01:23:38.439 --> 01:23:40.920 The ending for me, the two different endings, it's the 1578 01:23:40.920 --> 01:23:45.479 theatrical Guccioni cut feels like I was talking about before, 1579 01:23:45.600 --> 01:23:48.279 Remember the thing about the bully who wants to be killed. 1580 01:23:48.800 --> 01:23:51.640 There's almost a feeling that I get from the way 1581 01:23:51.800 --> 01:23:54.800 McDonald plays it in that cut when he says scrotum, 1582 01:23:55.479 --> 01:23:58.600 he's happy that this is happening. It's finally it's arrived. 1583 01:23:58.920 --> 01:24:02.760 And in the other version, the new one, it feels 1584 01:24:02.840 --> 01:24:06.079 a bit more somber in his play, and it's much bloodier. 1585 01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:10.079 And the thing that I do like when I thought 1586 01:24:10.119 --> 01:24:14.600 about it politically, and we talk about this, is that 1587 01:24:14.640 --> 01:24:17.640 Claudius throughout this entire film is played up as a 1588 01:24:17.680 --> 01:24:21.600 bigger fool an idiot in this version than he is 1589 01:24:21.640 --> 01:24:25.359 in the theatrical Guccioni versions. And because of that, when 1590 01:24:25.359 --> 01:24:28.920 he's finally crowned by the kingmakers, by the power brokers 1591 01:24:29.039 --> 01:24:34.680 to keep these emperors, it feels much more like, Okay, 1592 01:24:34.720 --> 01:24:39.399 we've made our new choice, and it's you know, I 1593 01:24:39.479 --> 01:24:42.439 get this feeling that it's like, even if you are Caligular, 1594 01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:45.279 or even if you are Claudius, that doesn't matter. It's 1595 01:24:45.319 --> 01:24:47.840 the people who are the power brokers that run the show, 1596 01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:50.079 and eventually they'll get tired of you and they'll get 1597 01:24:50.159 --> 01:24:52.199 rid of you and they'll bring the new guy in. 1598 01:24:52.479 --> 01:24:55.840 So I really like the ending in this one because 1599 01:24:56.239 --> 01:24:59.479 with that it felt much more definite. As opposed to 1600 01:24:59.560 --> 01:25:01.920 the theatre Guccioni version, where he was just like, all right, 1601 01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:04.159 just throw the crown on him and go this, it 1602 01:25:04.239 --> 01:25:06.960 felt much more like hail and bring him out, and 1603 01:25:07.079 --> 01:25:09.520 there was more to do with it, just. 1604 01:25:09.520 --> 01:25:12.359 To keep in I keep going back to those scripts, 1605 01:25:12.399 --> 01:25:18.279 and the July seventy six to one has Proculus stabbing 1606 01:25:18.319 --> 01:25:21.880 Coligilia in the chest. Colliguilia goes, I live, and then 1607 01:25:22.159 --> 01:25:25.560 one of the hard steps of Zonia she falls dead. 1608 01:25:26.199 --> 01:25:29.119 One of the guards picks up Julia, their child and 1609 01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:32.239 bashes her head on a wall, which is very upsetting. 1610 01:25:32.239 --> 01:25:35.199 And no matter which version you watch of this, and 1611 01:25:35.239 --> 01:25:39.119 then we've got Caligula, I still live, and Carrera hurry 1612 01:25:39.199 --> 01:25:43.319 towards Caligular sword drawn. Caligulia is now struggling to get 1613 01:25:43.359 --> 01:25:46.520 to his feet. He is half e wrecked when Carrea 1614 01:25:47.119 --> 01:25:52.239 viciously slashes his crotch. Colegular howls and pain. Then Longina 1615 01:25:52.359 --> 01:25:55.760 stabs again, and that's it. That's the end of the script. 1616 01:25:55.920 --> 01:25:59.960 It's the other one from October of seventy five war. 1617 01:26:00.159 --> 01:26:05.079 You get more of the idea around the aale, this 1618 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:09.640 new Caesar, Hail Claudius, and you get the death mask 1619 01:26:09.720 --> 01:26:12.640 of Caligula at the very end, and the last shot 1620 01:26:12.720 --> 01:26:16.520 is long shot. The funeral procession has now become fantastic, 1621 01:26:16.800 --> 01:26:20.039 and the line which should have ended realistically with Caligula 1622 01:26:20.359 --> 01:26:24.079 seems to be an endless procession. Of grotesquely masked figures 1623 01:26:24.720 --> 01:26:28.039 of tyrants. And they really talk about those death masks 1624 01:26:28.159 --> 01:26:31.159 so much in this version, because even at the very 1625 01:26:31.199 --> 01:26:35.079 beginning of the script there's a little note that says, 1626 01:26:35.800 --> 01:26:38.920 let's see note. The audience needs to know two things 1627 01:26:38.960 --> 01:26:43.079 that the film cannot make clear short of using cards. One, 1628 01:26:43.159 --> 01:26:47.199 that Caligula and Tiberius were actually first century AD Roman emperors, 1629 01:26:47.199 --> 01:26:49.239 and that the events shown in the film took place 1630 01:26:49.239 --> 01:26:53.239 pretty much as recorded. Second, that the Roman funerals figures 1631 01:26:53.279 --> 01:26:57.199 wearing the death mask of ancestors would proceed over the 1632 01:26:57.239 --> 01:27:01.359 dead body. This information could be supplied in voiceover while 1633 01:27:01.399 --> 01:27:04.840 the camera reveals the ruins of the palace of Tiberius 1634 01:27:04.880 --> 01:27:08.399 and Caligula as they look today, as well as the Forum, 1635 01:27:08.520 --> 01:27:12.439 Senate House Circus Maximus, not to mention the still extant 1636 01:27:12.520 --> 01:27:15.119 underground corridor where Caligula was murdered. 1637 01:27:16.600 --> 01:27:19.039 God, that's incredible. Yeah, Like that takes me think of 1638 01:27:19.079 --> 01:27:20.920 some of the imagery we've seen that the nightmare at 1639 01:27:20.920 --> 01:27:24.680 the beginning. Yeah, and the animation that would have been 1640 01:27:24.720 --> 01:27:27.920 a very cool with all the death masks. I would 1641 01:27:27.920 --> 01:27:30.560 have enjoyed that immensely. I did just say one thing, 1642 01:27:31.159 --> 01:27:35.960 whatever version is it is brutal, the brutality, and there 1643 01:27:36.039 --> 01:27:39.039 is like such a sadness because honestly, what crimes has 1644 01:27:39.039 --> 01:27:43.039 Sesonia done? What crimes has that kid done? That little girl? 1645 01:27:43.119 --> 01:27:46.079 What has she done wrong? The giant, you love the giant, 1646 01:27:46.159 --> 01:27:48.439 he's just doing a job. And it's just the innocent 1647 01:27:48.520 --> 01:27:50.880 always suffer. But that's how they would But that's also 1648 01:27:50.920 --> 01:27:52.840 a very true to form back then. It's like you 1649 01:27:52.880 --> 01:27:55.640 would kill, you'd often want to kill the family, so 1650 01:27:55.680 --> 01:27:58.319 there couldn't be a little one waiting to take place. 1651 01:27:58.640 --> 01:28:02.279 That's yeah, yeah, so it's brutal. Actually it's funny because 1652 01:28:02.319 --> 01:28:04.159 we don't really get it in the film, but Tiberia's 1653 01:28:04.159 --> 01:28:06.199 for ally Counts was a very reluctant emperor for that 1654 01:28:06.319 --> 01:28:08.880 reason that he didn't want He really didn't want to 1655 01:28:08.880 --> 01:28:12.760 be emperor, and was that very beloved. But obviously I 1656 01:28:12.800 --> 01:28:14.960 had a lot of laws. But you can see where 1657 01:28:15.039 --> 01:28:16.960 somebody wouldn't because it just seems like a way to 1658 01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:19.840 just basically put a big target on yourself. 1659 01:28:20.520 --> 01:28:22.479 Let them hate me as long as they fear me. 1660 01:28:23.199 --> 01:28:25.239 Well, that's supposed to be the name of the documentary 1661 01:28:25.279 --> 01:28:27.079 coming out about this is let them hate Me. 1662 01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:30.119 It'll be interesting It's one of those things like when 1663 01:28:30.119 --> 01:28:32.359 you see like a great documentary on a band that 1664 01:28:32.439 --> 01:28:35.359 has a lot of like animosity and then some of 1665 01:28:35.399 --> 01:28:38.199 the people are gone. Is what are the logistics of 1666 01:28:38.319 --> 01:28:42.640 getting a truly objective story. It's gonna be tricky in 1667 01:28:42.720 --> 01:28:46.640 my opinion, But I'm interested, I'm curious, I'm hopeful. I 1668 01:28:46.680 --> 01:28:50.920 don't know. It's it's like this film, right if I'm 1669 01:28:51.000 --> 01:28:56.039 curious and I love it, I have hesitations, I have 1670 01:28:56.119 --> 01:29:00.279 sadness about it. Again, It's like, how many because other 1671 01:29:00.279 --> 01:29:03.680 films that have like different edits and got play films 1672 01:29:03.680 --> 01:29:06.560 have gotten tampered with that's far from now you ready 1673 01:29:06.600 --> 01:29:08.600 to look at Eric bon Stroheim and what happened to 1674 01:29:08.640 --> 01:29:12.399 Greed and see that? But how many films have repercussions 1675 01:29:12.840 --> 01:29:15.720 years after the fact for people, even researchers like you're 1676 01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:18.319 talking about or she were they It's like, he's not 1677 01:29:18.359 --> 01:29:22.000 going to finish this book. That's it's just it's bonkers 1678 01:29:22.039 --> 01:29:24.920 to me, Like it's I can't think of any work 1679 01:29:24.920 --> 01:29:27.760 of art that has that just showed you about it. 1680 01:29:27.760 --> 01:29:30.760 It's almost there's some bad ju ju with it. I 1681 01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:32.720 don't know if I believe in that is a proper 1682 01:29:32.800 --> 01:29:34.800 thing with this film, but there is there's something to 1683 01:29:34.840 --> 01:29:37.439 it that's I think that's what also fascinates me about 1684 01:29:37.479 --> 01:29:39.279 it is what is it? What is it with this? 1685 01:29:39.399 --> 01:29:42.560 What it's all? It's like The Kennedys minus the brain worm. 1686 01:29:42.359 --> 01:29:44.840 But it won't stay dead. 1687 01:29:45.199 --> 01:29:47.880 What if we all kissed under the parasitic brain worm? 1688 01:29:48.000 --> 01:29:52.079 Speaking of animosity and tampering, let's go ahead and take 1689 01:29:52.079 --> 01:29:54.199 a break and we're going to play a pair of interviews. 1690 01:29:54.199 --> 01:29:57.479 First up, we'll hear from Caroline kirkandall the precedent of 1691 01:29:57.720 --> 01:30:01.079 Penthouse Global Licensing. And after that we'll hear from our 1692 01:30:01.079 --> 01:30:06.119 old friend Alexander Tushinsky, director of Mission Caligula. Right after 1693 01:30:06.239 --> 01:30:07.880 these brief messages. 1694 01:30:15.479 --> 01:30:17.720 Hello everyone, this is Malcolm McDowell. 1695 01:30:18.279 --> 01:30:21.479 I just want to say that this is a request 1696 01:30:22.079 --> 01:30:27.359 to listeners of the Projection Booth podcast to become patrons 1697 01:30:27.479 --> 01:30:31.800 of the show via Patreon dot com, p A T 1698 01:30:33.079 --> 01:30:37.960 eo n dot com slash Projection Booth. 1699 01:30:38.640 --> 01:30:40.640 That's pretty simple. I think you can do that. 1700 01:30:41.319 --> 01:30:45.119 It's a great show and Mike he provides hours of 1701 01:30:45.319 --> 01:30:48.880 great entertainment. So now it's time to give back my 1702 01:30:49.000 --> 01:30:52.760 little drovies. Settle down and take a listen. And have 1703 01:30:52.840 --> 01:30:55.960 a sip of the old molocco, and then you'll be 1704 01:30:56.039 --> 01:30:59.119 ready for a little of the old in out, in out, 1705 01:30:59.279 --> 01:31:00.479 real hard show. 1706 01:31:00.920 --> 01:31:08.239 Bye bye. 1707 01:31:09.199 --> 01:31:11.000 Tell me a little bit about you and your background, 1708 01:31:11.000 --> 01:31:13.960 because you seem to have a very interesting background, especially 1709 01:31:14.279 --> 01:31:16.399 all of the positions that you've held over the last 1710 01:31:16.439 --> 01:31:18.159 even just ten years. 1711 01:31:18.560 --> 01:31:22.359 Yes, unconventional, I suppose it's a word for it. I 1712 01:31:22.479 --> 01:31:25.960 joined my father's company out of grad school in twenty sixteen. 1713 01:31:26.079 --> 01:31:28.880 He had the Hospitality Management Company headquartered in New Orleans. 1714 01:31:29.279 --> 01:31:32.319 At the time, he owned and operated nightclubs and restaurants, 1715 01:31:32.760 --> 01:31:36.399 and shortly thereafter he bought into the Penthouse Club brand. 1716 01:31:36.479 --> 01:31:39.920 He purchased the trademarks for the Penthouse Club. We purchased 1717 01:31:39.960 --> 01:31:43.600 the entire licensing division from the former owner of Penthouse, 1718 01:31:43.640 --> 01:31:46.640 Kelly Holland, and worked with her for a while running 1719 01:31:46.640 --> 01:31:50.760 the licensing division. Unfortunately, Kelly file for bankruptcy. We found 1720 01:31:50.760 --> 01:31:55.439 ourselves in a position to want to work positively with 1721 01:31:55.479 --> 01:32:01.159 the new owners to maintain some semblance of control over 1722 01:32:01.199 --> 01:32:04.760 the marks and ensuring that the brand continued to evolve. 1723 01:32:04.960 --> 01:32:07.239 We were really fortunate and that they were very receptive 1724 01:32:07.239 --> 01:32:10.520 to working with us. Ultimately, we ended up pooling the 1725 01:32:10.560 --> 01:32:13.479 trademarks we had purchased related to the club with the 1726 01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:18.720 other Penhouse marks and assets, including Caligula, but also things 1727 01:32:18.760 --> 01:32:22.439 like Omni into one joint venture which is Penhouse Global Licensing, 1728 01:32:23.119 --> 01:32:25.239 despite non as formal licensing experienced. 1729 01:32:25.279 --> 01:32:29.439 I though, I started to head that up and here 1730 01:32:29.479 --> 01:32:29.720 we are. 1731 01:32:30.199 --> 01:32:34.359 However, many years later, when was this Do you remember 1732 01:32:34.960 --> 01:32:36.760 when we originally purchased the marks? I think that was 1733 01:32:36.760 --> 01:32:39.840 in twenty seventeen, and then a year and a half later, 1734 01:32:40.039 --> 01:32:43.000 like mid twenty eighteen, I think the bankruptcy happened and 1735 01:32:43.279 --> 01:32:44.000 we formed a JB. 1736 01:32:44.760 --> 01:32:48.079 How involved were you with this colligular project and how 1737 01:32:48.279 --> 01:32:49.520 did you become aware of it? 1738 01:32:50.159 --> 01:32:52.960 When the bankruptcy happened and we inherited all these assets 1739 01:32:53.000 --> 01:32:56.920 and we started talking about what were potential money makers 1740 01:32:56.920 --> 01:33:01.239 for this new Penhouse. Colhila came up, and I know 1741 01:33:01.359 --> 01:33:05.119 that Kelly at one point had attempted to bring the 1742 01:33:05.159 --> 01:33:09.279 movie back in some capacity and unfortunately just never had 1743 01:33:09.279 --> 01:33:11.680 the funding for it. So it had been something that 1744 01:33:11.720 --> 01:33:14.680 others had been thinking about. One of my colleagues knows 1745 01:33:14.760 --> 01:33:18.399 Tom Nagovin personally their family friends from years ago, and 1746 01:33:18.439 --> 01:33:21.199 he said, well, if you guys are serious about restoring 1747 01:33:21.199 --> 01:33:23.079 the film, then you have to speak to Tom. There's 1748 01:33:23.119 --> 01:33:25.640 nobody better than to talk to him about it. So 1749 01:33:25.720 --> 01:33:29.159 we did, and Tom pitched what was originally just a 1750 01:33:29.199 --> 01:33:33.359 film restoration, because all the materials had been stored in 1751 01:33:34.039 --> 01:33:39.119 storagelockers and other places in la for decades without anybody 1752 01:33:39.159 --> 01:33:41.520 you've had checking in on them, and so jump, let 1753 01:33:41.560 --> 01:33:43.600 me just see what's there and then we can go 1754 01:33:43.640 --> 01:33:46.079 from there and see what we can do. So what 1755 01:33:46.239 --> 01:33:50.760 started as an archival attempt to maintain the integrity of 1756 01:33:50.800 --> 01:33:54.279 the original film assets turned into what we now know 1757 01:33:54.399 --> 01:33:57.199 is this incredible reconstruction of the film. I didn't really 1758 01:33:57.199 --> 01:33:59.479 become involved with the project. I know Tom, and the 1759 01:33:59.520 --> 01:34:01.239 first time i'm him was at the la Art Show. 1760 01:34:01.479 --> 01:34:05.439 We displayed a bunch of photographs tinto brass photographs and 1761 01:34:05.479 --> 01:34:08.960 stuff like that at the Laar Show. And then this 1762 01:34:09.159 --> 01:34:12.319 was pre COVID and COVID hit and Tom got very 1763 01:34:12.319 --> 01:34:14.960 busy were he on the restoration And then I didn't 1764 01:34:14.960 --> 01:34:16.840 really hear from him, not that I needed to, but 1765 01:34:17.239 --> 01:34:18.960 he was just busy doing his thing. He did a 1766 01:34:18.960 --> 01:34:23.359 great job of maintaining updates and letting everybody know how 1767 01:34:23.399 --> 01:34:26.079 things were going and what was constable. The project did 1768 01:34:26.159 --> 01:34:28.520 take longer than we thought. We weren't really sure what 1769 01:34:28.560 --> 01:34:29.640 we were going to get at the end of it. 1770 01:34:29.680 --> 01:34:32.319 But I remember getting a phone call from Tom, I 1771 01:34:32.319 --> 01:34:35.640 think it was probably February of twenty twenty three, saying, listen, 1772 01:34:35.680 --> 01:34:37.720 I finished the movie and I think it's going to 1773 01:34:37.840 --> 01:34:40.600 go to can What do we do? And so that 1774 01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:44.880 was really when I started to get involved, and since 1775 01:34:44.880 --> 01:34:48.920 then have just helped him manage all the post production 1776 01:34:49.920 --> 01:34:53.079 involved with bringing a finished film to market, getting in 1777 01:34:53.079 --> 01:34:57.800 the hands of agents and distributors and all that fun stuff. 1778 01:34:58.079 --> 01:35:00.760 I think you're talking about licenses and rights, and now 1779 01:35:00.800 --> 01:35:03.960 you probably have to worry about global rights and who 1780 01:35:04.079 --> 01:35:07.039 sells it and who shows it. The ins and outs 1781 01:35:07.039 --> 01:35:08.920 of that must be incredibly tough. 1782 01:35:09.560 --> 01:35:11.920 The learning crew was very steep. I'll say that, even 1783 01:35:11.960 --> 01:35:14.479 though I did have a fair amount of licensing experience 1784 01:35:14.520 --> 01:35:17.520 at that point, the film world is very different. But 1785 01:35:17.520 --> 01:35:21.159 we got really lucky and that Tom, through his personal connections, 1786 01:35:21.920 --> 01:35:24.199 got the film in the hands of Goodfellas, which is 1787 01:35:24.359 --> 01:35:28.680 an international film agency. So they had read to represent 1788 01:35:28.720 --> 01:35:31.319 the film, and so we gave it to them and 1789 01:35:31.359 --> 01:35:34.319 they went out and sold it to different territories and 1790 01:35:34.960 --> 01:35:37.199 have been really wonderful at just managing all of those 1791 01:35:37.199 --> 01:35:41.079 contracts and hopefully just start sending us checks now every quarder. 1792 01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:45.279 I can't even imagine how much a project like this 1793 01:35:45.520 --> 01:35:48.920 cost to do the restoration, because you've got all of 1794 01:35:48.960 --> 01:35:53.479 those different the sound needs to be rescued, the digital 1795 01:35:53.520 --> 01:35:56.560 effects need to be added. Just so many things add 1796 01:35:56.680 --> 01:35:58.720 up with a project like this, And like you said, 1797 01:35:58.960 --> 01:36:01.399 the timeline was span it from where you originally thought 1798 01:36:01.439 --> 01:36:01.920 it would be. 1799 01:36:02.640 --> 01:36:06.319 Yeah, exactly. I don't have a hard number to give you, 1800 01:36:07.159 --> 01:36:09.119 And in talking with Tom about it, I know that 1801 01:36:09.520 --> 01:36:12.560 it was significantly more than what we had anticipated, just 1802 01:36:12.600 --> 01:36:15.199 because again we thought we were just restoring a film. 1803 01:36:15.399 --> 01:36:18.920 We certainly didn't understand the post production costs associated with 1804 01:36:19.520 --> 01:36:22.239 marketing the film and getting it as festivals and showing 1805 01:36:22.239 --> 01:36:26.439 it to buyers and engaging Malcolm McDowell and stuff like that. 1806 01:36:27.039 --> 01:36:30.359 But it was and again my first film, so I 1807 01:36:30.399 --> 01:36:34.279 have no ability to qualify, but I do think it 1808 01:36:34.319 --> 01:36:38.199 was more extensive than we were planning on and maybe 1809 01:36:38.199 --> 01:36:41.520 many people would assume just for a generic film restoration. 1810 01:36:42.279 --> 01:36:44.439 I can't imagine it was just Thomas working on this. 1811 01:36:44.520 --> 01:36:46.640 It must have been other people. He must have had 1812 01:36:46.640 --> 01:36:47.840 some sort of big team. 1813 01:36:47.640 --> 01:36:51.039 For this, I would think, yes, he definitely did. He 1814 01:36:51.159 --> 01:36:54.399 Tom ran the project and then outsourced a lot of 1815 01:36:54.399 --> 01:36:58.520 the technical work through various teams during twenty twenty, so 1816 01:36:58.800 --> 01:37:02.079 everybody was on lockdown. It was a fortunate, unfortunate thing 1817 01:37:02.119 --> 01:37:04.279 that these were all people who were already very dialed 1818 01:37:04.319 --> 01:37:09.079 into working remotely or a different aspect. A challenge to 1819 01:37:09.439 --> 01:37:12.640 creating a film with people all over the world with 1820 01:37:12.800 --> 01:37:17.319 very little in person overlap. But yes, I had the 1821 01:37:17.359 --> 01:37:21.319 pleasure of meeting several people that he collaborated with Dave 1822 01:37:21.399 --> 01:37:26.399 McKean on the illustrations, the beginning sequences, and some of 1823 01:37:26.399 --> 01:37:29.640 the musicians who created original scores. I met them in 1824 01:37:29.640 --> 01:37:33.079 France last year. And like super cool people, a Tom 1825 01:37:33.159 --> 01:37:36.760 has a rolodex like a million miles long of just 1826 01:37:36.840 --> 01:37:40.039 super weird, super cool, super fun people. 1827 01:37:40.159 --> 01:37:43.720 So, yeah, how's it been for you getting immersed in 1828 01:37:43.760 --> 01:37:44.560 this film world? 1829 01:37:45.239 --> 01:37:45.560 Personally? 1830 01:37:45.640 --> 01:37:46.439 I loved it. 1831 01:37:46.439 --> 01:37:48.359 It was challenging in the sense that I really had 1832 01:37:48.439 --> 01:37:51.560 no idea what I was doing, but it's nice to 1833 01:37:51.640 --> 01:37:54.720 learn a skill when you have mentors like Tom and 1834 01:37:54.840 --> 01:37:59.159 Goodfellas and our United States agency that sold the film 1835 01:37:59.199 --> 01:38:02.479 in the United States, they're called submarine and draft house 1836 01:38:02.479 --> 01:38:03.760 whoes that are should be or kicked it up the 1837 01:38:03.840 --> 01:38:06.359 United States. They have been incredible as far as just 1838 01:38:06.399 --> 01:38:09.359 like educating me and letting me know this is bad, 1839 01:38:09.399 --> 01:38:12.720 this is good, do this, don't do that. That's been great, 1840 01:38:13.000 --> 01:38:16.159 But personally I love it. I would love to have 1841 01:38:16.199 --> 01:38:18.199 the opportunity to do this again. I don't know that 1842 01:38:18.279 --> 01:38:21.399 Penthouse is sitting on any secret footage of any other 1843 01:38:21.479 --> 01:38:24.640 films that we could possibly restore, but should be opportunity 1844 01:38:24.680 --> 01:38:27.439 present itself. This has been really fun and I'd love 1845 01:38:27.479 --> 01:38:28.079 to do it again. 1846 01:38:28.680 --> 01:38:30.640 The movie is infamous, and I know there were a 1847 01:38:30.680 --> 01:38:34.039 lot of lawsuits that happened after it came out while 1848 01:38:34.039 --> 01:38:37.039 it was being made. Was all of that settled? Did 1849 01:38:37.119 --> 01:38:40.479 you have to worry about old grievances and old claims 1850 01:38:40.479 --> 01:38:42.880 to things or had that all been worked out? 1851 01:38:43.199 --> 01:38:46.199 Technically speaking, we didn't really have to worry about anything 1852 01:38:46.279 --> 01:38:49.600 because so much had happened, just like legally from a 1853 01:38:49.600 --> 01:38:54.079 bankruptcy standpoint, since before and after Bob Guccioni passed away 1854 01:38:54.560 --> 01:38:58.079 that there were no legitimate claims to any of the assets. 1855 01:38:58.239 --> 01:39:02.199 But there's a lot that goes into managing relationships with people, 1856 01:39:02.239 --> 01:39:05.920 and it's a very small world. Guccioni's world is very small, 1857 01:39:06.319 --> 01:39:08.199 the Tom's world is very small. So we wanted to 1858 01:39:08.239 --> 01:39:12.159 be really respectful of everybody, especially the actors and members 1859 01:39:12.199 --> 01:39:15.079 of the crew who are still alive, and so we did, 1860 01:39:15.159 --> 01:39:18.439 unfortunately run into an issue with Tinto Reth, the original director. 1861 01:39:19.359 --> 01:39:21.960 His estate has a lot of food out there they're 1862 01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:25.079 claiming they have right to which they don't. In order 1863 01:39:25.119 --> 01:39:28.680 to bring a film to market, Goodfellas, our agency, our 1864 01:39:28.720 --> 01:39:33.439 distributors did require a lot of contractual information, basically testifying 1865 01:39:33.439 --> 01:39:35.800 to the fact that we own the film and going 1866 01:39:35.840 --> 01:39:37.880 back through the chain of title and just looking at 1867 01:39:37.920 --> 01:39:41.399 the many different ways that it had been moved around 1868 01:39:41.439 --> 01:39:44.920 from Penthouse entity to Penhouse entity, to the new owner 1869 01:39:44.960 --> 01:39:47.399 of Penhouse and another new owner of pen House. It 1870 01:39:47.520 --> 01:39:50.680 was a lot, but lucky for us, a lot of 1871 01:39:50.680 --> 01:39:53.680 people within kind House love to keep paper records and stuff, 1872 01:39:53.720 --> 01:39:57.039 so we did a lot of scaring and a lot 1873 01:39:57.079 --> 01:40:00.600 of combing through old files and old folders, but we 1874 01:40:00.680 --> 01:40:04.039 have a pretty robust archive at this point of everything 1875 01:40:04.079 --> 01:40:09.600 from me contracts to photographs, whatever it is. I think 1876 01:40:09.680 --> 01:40:12.880 Tom probably used like fifty percent of what we had 1877 01:40:12.920 --> 01:40:15.800 to make the film. It was an immense amount of stuff. 1878 01:40:16.319 --> 01:40:18.399 That whole chain of title thing must have just been 1879 01:40:18.439 --> 01:40:22.720 a knight. At least you had the records. 1880 01:40:23.000 --> 01:40:26.000 Yeah, yeah, No, we were able to provide everything they needed, 1881 01:40:26.680 --> 01:40:30.000 all the ctrifications for all the different countries. We feel 1882 01:40:30.119 --> 01:40:34.520 very confident in our rights and are hopeful that in 1883 01:40:34.560 --> 01:40:37.039 some way we'll be able to continue to use Coligula 1884 01:40:37.079 --> 01:40:40.800 and colicgular related assets going forward. Not necessarily to make 1885 01:40:40.880 --> 01:40:43.079 another film, but maybe there's just been off show. Maybe 1886 01:40:43.079 --> 01:40:48.119 there's some way to keep that storyline, keep those characters alive. 1887 01:40:48.800 --> 01:40:50.920 Yeah. I had heard that Thomas was talking about doing 1888 01:40:51.000 --> 01:40:52.560 a documentary about this as well. 1889 01:40:53.199 --> 01:40:53.479 Yeah. 1890 01:40:53.520 --> 01:40:56.319 I think in a perfect world we would have four 1891 01:40:56.439 --> 01:40:58.960 Tom's and he would be able to do all of 1892 01:40:59.039 --> 01:40:59.920 this simultaneously. 1893 01:41:01.199 --> 01:41:03.159 And you can. 1894 01:41:03.079 --> 01:41:06.000 Imagine there's so much about understanding. What's great about this 1895 01:41:06.039 --> 01:41:10.600 reconstruction is understanding what a dumpster fire the first one 1896 01:41:10.640 --> 01:41:14.479 was so the idea to do this documentary that really 1897 01:41:14.479 --> 01:41:17.439 takes you deep into the everyday. 1898 01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:17.840 Life on the set. 1899 01:41:18.319 --> 01:41:22.000 It explains the headspace of all of the creatives back then. 1900 01:41:22.960 --> 01:41:25.000 It gives you such a better understanding of what was 1901 01:41:25.039 --> 01:41:27.520 happening rather than just this is a film that was 1902 01:41:27.560 --> 01:41:29.399 made in nineteen seventy nine. This is the film that 1903 01:41:29.479 --> 01:41:33.439 was made in twenty twenty three. Comparing contrast, I'm hopeful 1904 01:41:33.439 --> 01:41:37.560 that it happens. Tom is, He's one guy. I know, 1905 01:41:38.079 --> 01:41:39.880 we like to pretend that he didn't have a family 1906 01:41:40.000 --> 01:41:43.520 or any other commitments. For the past year or so, 1907 01:41:43.560 --> 01:41:46.920 we've really monopolized his time. I do hope that one 1908 01:41:47.000 --> 01:41:50.119 day we'll have a documentary that goes into more detail 1909 01:41:50.439 --> 01:41:53.520 on all the drama, all the juicy bids related to 1910 01:41:54.159 --> 01:41:55.439 the original film. 1911 01:41:55.920 --> 01:42:00.560 You were speaking about some of the other potential properties reserves. 1912 01:42:01.000 --> 01:42:03.960 Bob Guccioni was also involved in some other film productions. 1913 01:42:04.039 --> 01:42:06.800 Didn't he have something to do with even like Chinatown? 1914 01:42:07.640 --> 01:42:11.199 If he did, I have no idea tell him, honestly, 1915 01:42:11.239 --> 01:42:14.039 would know, just because Tom is like the math of 1916 01:42:14.079 --> 01:42:17.479 repository for all information related to Bob Guccioni's life. Unfortunately, 1917 01:42:17.520 --> 01:42:18.920 I have no idea. I'm sorry. 1918 01:42:19.600 --> 01:42:22.439 I didn't expect that you become the be all and 1919 01:42:22.600 --> 01:42:24.920 all expert on Bob Guccioni's life. 1920 01:42:25.520 --> 01:42:28.880 Everybody has a story about Bob right and at a 1921 01:42:28.920 --> 01:42:32.800 certain point you just have to appreciate that everybody's lived 1922 01:42:32.840 --> 01:42:36.680 history is their lived history, and where the truth lies 1923 01:42:36.720 --> 01:42:40.439 is somewhere in between everybody's memories and their stories. And 1924 01:42:41.359 --> 01:42:43.560 I personally have not spent enough time with those people 1925 01:42:43.680 --> 01:42:45.720 so that you can begin to say, Okay, I think 1926 01:42:45.760 --> 01:42:49.119 this is the commonalities because everyone loves to talk about 1927 01:42:49.239 --> 01:42:52.199 what an eccentric he was, and how extravagant he was, 1928 01:42:52.239 --> 01:42:54.760 and just all the way in which he was on 1929 01:42:55.079 --> 01:42:59.239 either end of whatever spectrum, just good bad, nothing even 1930 01:42:59.279 --> 01:43:02.600 killed her in between. So yeah, the truth about all that, 1931 01:43:02.760 --> 01:43:05.399 I don't know, but I know Tom. It's been something 1932 01:43:05.399 --> 01:43:07.319 that Tom's been interested in for a long time, and 1933 01:43:07.920 --> 01:43:09.399 he's probably the better person to ask. 1934 01:43:10.000 --> 01:43:14.760 Singer. Remember, you have background working for the International Narcotics 1935 01:43:14.760 --> 01:43:18.159 and Law Enforcement Bureau, so to go from that side 1936 01:43:18.239 --> 01:43:21.640 of the law to I know, penhouse is legal, but 1937 01:43:21.680 --> 01:43:23.800 it's stealing in sin. But it must be just an 1938 01:43:23.840 --> 01:43:25.760 interesting contrast between those two. 1939 01:43:26.680 --> 01:43:31.039 Yes, there's really no easy explanation for that other than 1940 01:43:31.800 --> 01:43:33.880 I was one of those people that didn't really know 1941 01:43:33.920 --> 01:43:35.399 what I wanted to do with my life, and I 1942 01:43:35.439 --> 01:43:39.439 felt like going to grad school would answer that question. Instead, 1943 01:43:39.439 --> 01:43:42.279 it just prolonged making a decision by a full two 1944 01:43:42.319 --> 01:43:45.079 years and a lot of money. By the time I 1945 01:43:45.199 --> 01:43:47.560 had graduated, my most recent experience, I had been working 1946 01:43:47.560 --> 01:43:51.319 for the State Department on a Central American regional security 1947 01:43:51.359 --> 01:43:54.520 team that did a lot of work in drug trafficking, 1948 01:43:54.600 --> 01:43:59.920 human trafficking, stuff like that, which I find academically incredibly interesting. Professionally, 1949 01:44:00.039 --> 01:44:03.640 I had a hard time figuring out how to maintain 1950 01:44:03.920 --> 01:44:06.399 the idea of working for the U. Not that I 1951 01:44:06.399 --> 01:44:08.079 have anything against the US government, more so it was 1952 01:44:08.119 --> 01:44:10.600 just being a very small cog and a big wheel 1953 01:44:10.880 --> 01:44:13.920 and having just didn't seem like the best use of 1954 01:44:13.920 --> 01:44:16.399 my time. I also had lived in Costa Rica for 1955 01:44:16.479 --> 01:44:18.399 three years prior to grad school, and I really wanted 1956 01:44:18.439 --> 01:44:21.520 to move back to Central America. Staying in DC just 1957 01:44:21.640 --> 01:44:23.000 didn't feel like I was going to be able to 1958 01:44:23.000 --> 01:44:27.920 do that. But anyway, the truth is I couldn't get 1959 01:44:27.920 --> 01:44:30.079 a job after grad school. I couldn't find one that 1960 01:44:30.119 --> 01:44:32.279 I really liked and that within My dad came to me, 1961 01:44:32.319 --> 01:44:35.039 and he was in a position with his company where 1962 01:44:35.119 --> 01:44:38.279 he had spent the past thirty years working exclusively in nightclubs, 1963 01:44:38.640 --> 01:44:42.560 and rather than thinking about retiring and taking a step back, 1964 01:44:42.600 --> 01:44:45.199 he did the exact opposite of what probably most meant 1965 01:44:45.239 --> 01:44:47.760 his age would do, and wanted to figure out a 1966 01:44:47.760 --> 01:44:50.680 way to diversify within the hospitality space and grow the company. 1967 01:44:50.960 --> 01:44:53.239 So he had just purchased a restaurant. I had some 1968 01:44:53.319 --> 01:44:57.399 international business experience, so I thought, maybe there's a way 1969 01:44:57.560 --> 01:45:00.359 to turn this into something that I find interesting and 1970 01:45:00.479 --> 01:45:05.039 it also gets me a paycheck. And yeah, the adult side, 1971 01:45:05.199 --> 01:45:07.439 it was shocking in a lot of ways, mostly because 1972 01:45:07.720 --> 01:45:09.359 I didn't even know what my father did until I 1973 01:45:09.439 --> 01:45:12.000 was like laid into high school. Not in a naive way, 1974 01:45:12.119 --> 01:45:13.840 just in the way that kids don't really care how 1975 01:45:13.880 --> 01:45:17.119 their parents are spending time. But when I did find out, 1976 01:45:17.159 --> 01:45:18.800 I think if I had been a guy, may had 1977 01:45:18.800 --> 01:45:20.479 been different. I would have thought all that, it is 1978 01:45:20.479 --> 01:45:22.039 super cool and I want to do this every day, 1979 01:45:22.079 --> 01:45:25.039 And I didn't. I just wasn't interested. But then I 1980 01:45:25.039 --> 01:45:28.039 got into it, and eventually it just becomes I see 1981 01:45:28.079 --> 01:45:30.840 boobs every day, and I have a penhouse of aversion 1982 01:45:30.880 --> 01:45:32.600 from Germany sitting on my desk and it's just a 1983 01:45:32.680 --> 01:45:35.000 naked woman. And then there for six weeks, every time 1984 01:45:35.039 --> 01:45:36.800 someone who walks in my office, it's like a jump 1985 01:45:36.800 --> 01:45:39.039 scare and they're like oh, and I'm like, oh, sorry, 1986 01:45:39.039 --> 01:45:41.600 I guess I should cover that up at this point. 1987 01:45:41.600 --> 01:45:44.840 It doesn't really affect me the licensing part. There are 1988 01:45:44.880 --> 01:45:48.760 aspects of the licensing that are super interesting. Trademark law, 1989 01:45:48.800 --> 01:45:51.119 ip law, it doesn't it doesn't really matter what what 1990 01:45:51.239 --> 01:45:53.680 kind of marks they are what. Therefore, that all is 1991 01:45:53.760 --> 01:45:57.239 very interesting. Every day is different, and I think this 1992 01:45:57.319 --> 01:46:00.000 colligular thing is a great example. When we got involve 1993 01:46:00.319 --> 01:46:02.680 with the new owners of Penhouse, we had no idea 1994 01:46:02.720 --> 01:46:06.279 that our office or me personally would be managing the 1995 01:46:06.560 --> 01:46:10.159 release of the film. Could not have imagined and here 1996 01:46:10.159 --> 01:46:12.439 we are. So every day is different. 1997 01:46:13.239 --> 01:46:14.640 So how about you? What's next for you? 1998 01:46:16.199 --> 01:46:18.640 I'm really excited about a potential club deal we have 1999 01:46:18.680 --> 01:46:21.600 in London. I never made it back to Central America, 2000 01:46:21.760 --> 01:46:23.920 so now I want to move to Europe. That's my 2001 01:46:24.039 --> 01:46:28.159 new goal. We're going to visit London a couple of weeks. 2002 01:46:28.239 --> 01:46:30.840 We've got a site picked out. Fingers are crossed that 2003 01:46:30.880 --> 01:46:33.520 it works out, and then hopefully I would spend some 2004 01:46:33.560 --> 01:46:37.399 time out there opening that up, and who knows, seeing 2005 01:46:37.439 --> 01:46:40.880 what weekends you overseas. If I can find a legitimate 2006 01:46:40.920 --> 01:46:44.520 way to extend my stay beyond the club opening, that 2007 01:46:44.600 --> 01:46:47.279 would be nice. But It's an interesting time to being 2008 01:46:47.319 --> 01:46:51.600 in hospitality in America, in the world, really, it's especially 2009 01:46:51.600 --> 01:46:54.359 in New Orleans. We've got a lot of exciting things 2010 01:46:54.359 --> 01:46:57.239 coming up. The Super Bowls here next year, so we're 2011 01:46:57.279 --> 01:46:59.920 super pumped for that. But it's been a really slow summer. 2012 01:47:00.640 --> 01:47:03.640 We're seeing a lot of people are getting squeezed and 2013 01:47:03.800 --> 01:47:06.439 so they're spending fewer dollars out at restaurants at bars, 2014 01:47:07.199 --> 01:47:09.720 and we're doing a lot of internal kind of questioning 2015 01:47:09.920 --> 01:47:13.600 what does this model look like, Can we sustain things 2016 01:47:13.640 --> 01:47:15.359 like this or do we need to make some changes. 2017 01:47:16.039 --> 01:47:18.119 Ms kirkandall, thank you so much for your time. This 2018 01:47:18.159 --> 01:47:18.880 is fantastic. 2019 01:47:19.640 --> 01:47:23.119 You're so welcome. I hope it was helpful interesting in anyway. 2020 01:47:23.439 --> 01:47:25.920 I'm sorry I don't have the most amount of poligiar knowledge, 2021 01:47:25.960 --> 01:47:28.800 but if you do have specific questions, I'm happy to 2022 01:47:28.880 --> 01:47:32.000 go through the penthouse. People were still in touch with 2023 01:47:32.760 --> 01:47:36.520 employees who a new Bob and stuff like that, So 2024 01:47:36.800 --> 01:47:38.920 happy to try and dig up more specific stuff for you. 2025 01:47:54.159 --> 01:47:59.239 Alexander Tushinsky we spoke six years ago after the production 2026 01:47:59.399 --> 01:48:04.159 of Mission Caligular. We talked a little bit after that 2027 01:48:04.279 --> 01:48:06.479 movie came out, so that there were some things that 2028 01:48:06.520 --> 01:48:09.479 had happened between when the movie was released and when 2029 01:48:09.479 --> 01:48:14.279 we actually spoke, but six years what happened right after? 2030 01:48:14.359 --> 01:48:16.680 Can you tell me a little bit of what the 2031 01:48:16.840 --> 01:48:18.840 post of Mission Cligular was. 2032 01:48:19.600 --> 01:48:24.479 When Mission Cligular came out, that was quite an intense 2033 01:48:24.520 --> 01:48:28.560 time for me. I had just discovered a lot of 2034 01:48:28.600 --> 01:48:31.960 material in the Pentos archive in the prior years. In 2035 01:48:32.000 --> 01:48:35.520 the film, I presented the project to reconstruct Tinto Brass 2036 01:48:35.680 --> 01:48:40.239 edit of Calicula in his style and with his participation 2037 01:48:40.800 --> 01:48:43.319 if he likes so that was a big condition for 2038 01:48:43.359 --> 01:48:46.960 me that Tinto Buss participates in the Pentos archive. I 2039 01:48:47.039 --> 01:48:51.720 had discovered Tinto Bass work print of the film, which 2040 01:48:52.199 --> 01:48:56.319 essentially goes until the scene in which Macro gets killed 2041 01:48:56.319 --> 01:48:59.720 with this huge killing machine, and my idea was to 2042 01:49:00.000 --> 01:49:03.640 finish that work print together with Tinto if possible, and 2043 01:49:03.720 --> 01:49:07.359 there was a lot of excitement after that episode. I 2044 01:49:07.439 --> 01:49:11.239 decided to upload Mission Curricular on YouTube and Vimeo with 2045 01:49:11.279 --> 01:49:14.479 the permission of the rights holders, which was a good 2046 01:49:14.560 --> 01:49:17.479 idea in retrospective because I see a lot of people 2047 01:49:17.520 --> 01:49:21.239 have watched it. However, the project didn't come to pass. 2048 01:49:21.279 --> 01:49:24.239 There was a change in ownership with Penthouse and it's 2049 01:49:24.920 --> 01:49:29.359 basically the project to reconstruct Tinto's work print didn't happen. 2050 01:49:29.640 --> 01:49:34.560 That's what I can say. And that's twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, 2051 01:49:34.640 --> 01:49:36.680 and since then I've done my own films. I've done 2052 01:49:36.760 --> 01:49:38.920 quite a lot of things since then, but I guess 2053 01:49:38.920 --> 01:49:43.199 we're talking about the calcular related things. In the immediate aftermath, 2054 01:49:43.359 --> 01:49:46.239 I did two independent films, Gas Shaped Light and feedsom 2055 01:49:46.279 --> 01:49:50.079 Lee Even which are somewhat more serious and somewhat more 2056 01:49:50.159 --> 01:49:54.079 dark than my usual films. And I did this because 2057 01:49:54.199 --> 01:49:57.000 my mood wasn't the best at that time. And I'm 2058 01:49:57.079 --> 01:49:59.279 very proud of these films. I'm happy how they turned out. 2059 01:49:59.319 --> 01:50:01.600 But that's what happened in the immediate aftermath. 2060 01:50:02.279 --> 01:50:05.520 Yeah, I had heard that Penthouse had gone through new 2061 01:50:05.560 --> 01:50:09.159 ownership and that Kelly Allen was no longer CEO. What 2062 01:50:09.159 --> 01:50:12.119 do you know about that? Because I had heard Hornhou 2063 01:50:12.239 --> 01:50:14.600 bought them out, but I don't know if that's just 2064 01:50:14.800 --> 01:50:16.119 Shorthand for something else. 2065 01:50:17.199 --> 01:50:19.079 First of all, I can say I got along with 2066 01:50:19.119 --> 01:50:23.000 her very well, and as you can see in Mission Callriqula, 2067 01:50:23.319 --> 01:50:26.119 she really wanted to make this possible for Tintobus to 2068 01:50:26.239 --> 01:50:29.920 edit the film again. The way he likes. Then there 2069 01:50:29.960 --> 01:50:33.159 was a change in ownership as she lost ownership of 2070 01:50:33.199 --> 01:50:36.800 the company. In one period she was there, I was 2071 01:50:36.840 --> 01:50:40.279 talking to her and then there were other people basically, 2072 01:50:41.039 --> 01:50:44.279 and I told him who I was. But my ideas 2073 01:50:44.319 --> 01:50:46.680 are what the project is. But as I said, ultimately 2074 01:50:46.720 --> 01:50:50.039 it didn't happen to me. It was honestly a bit 2075 01:50:50.079 --> 01:50:55.319 surprising when suddenly this such other project was brought up, 2076 01:50:55.760 --> 01:50:58.920 and at first I thought it's related to what I 2077 01:50:59.000 --> 01:51:02.279 want to do. I remember I had a few discussions 2078 01:51:02.319 --> 01:51:05.479 back in twenty nineteen where I made clear I'm only 2079 01:51:05.520 --> 01:51:10.239 interested to participate in a project where I had two conditions. 2080 01:51:10.239 --> 01:51:13.880 The first condition is that I'm in charge of digitizing 2081 01:51:13.920 --> 01:51:16.560 the footage. I had a lot of conversations already when 2082 01:51:16.600 --> 01:51:18.760 discovering the footage and so on with labs how to 2083 01:51:18.800 --> 01:51:21.720 do it by degrees. I'm a Bachelor of Engineering Audio 2084 01:51:21.760 --> 01:51:24.439 visual Media, so I know about that side. And the 2085 01:51:24.479 --> 01:51:27.960 footage was in a lot of boxes with a sorting 2086 01:51:28.000 --> 01:51:30.319 that was not that intuitive, but I did know it 2087 01:51:30.399 --> 01:51:33.840 quite well after a lot of research. So I thought, 2088 01:51:33.960 --> 01:51:36.279 I have to be in charge of the digitizing to 2089 01:51:36.359 --> 01:51:39.199 make sure that everything is digitized. Some parts of the 2090 01:51:39.239 --> 01:51:42.479 film survived in thirty five millimeter negative, some in positive, 2091 01:51:42.560 --> 01:51:46.199 some in sixteen millimeter. And the second condition was that 2092 01:51:46.239 --> 01:51:50.479 there is no outside interference on the editing, and that 2093 01:51:50.560 --> 01:51:53.560 Tintobuss has to be approached that if possible, he has 2094 01:51:53.600 --> 01:51:59.880 to participate. My big dream was Tintobuss turned ninety last year, 2095 01:52:00.159 --> 01:52:02.840 and I remember I had the big dream for Tinto 2096 01:52:02.880 --> 01:52:06.279 Brass's ninetieth birthday to release a film that finally says 2097 01:52:06.319 --> 01:52:10.000 directed by Tinto Brass in the credits, and if Tinto 2098 01:52:10.039 --> 01:52:12.439 Brass would have said no, my idea was, I would 2099 01:52:12.520 --> 01:52:15.840 reconstruct the work print, so I have the first half 2100 01:52:15.880 --> 01:52:18.960 of the film approximately, I would reconstruct the second half 2101 01:52:19.000 --> 01:52:22.079 based on my research in a style that I feel 2102 01:52:22.239 --> 01:52:25.079 is very appropriate to his, and then release that as 2103 01:52:25.119 --> 01:52:29.000 a reconstruction, as a complete and reconstructed work print, be 2104 01:52:29.119 --> 01:52:31.319 very honest about what it is. And it was very 2105 01:52:31.359 --> 01:52:34.399 important for me to try to get Tinto to participate. 2106 01:52:35.119 --> 01:52:38.680 How would you describe Tintobrass's style. You've said before on 2107 01:52:38.720 --> 01:52:41.680 the show that he was very influential to your filmmaking, 2108 01:52:41.720 --> 01:52:44.039 and I'm curious how would you define that kind of 2109 01:52:44.720 --> 01:52:48.000 either editing style or shooting style, like what makes a 2110 01:52:48.039 --> 01:52:49.880 Tinto Brass film a Tinto Brass film. 2111 01:52:50.479 --> 01:52:53.720 In preparation for this conversation, I did look up my 2112 01:52:53.840 --> 01:52:56.720 old notes and I found my first notes about the 2113 01:52:56.840 --> 01:52:59.880 editing of Calicula are from two thousand and seven, when 2114 01:53:00.000 --> 01:53:02.279 I was eighteen years old. This is a long time 2115 01:53:02.319 --> 01:53:05.800 and Tinto Buss's editing style has been very influential for me. 2116 01:53:06.760 --> 01:53:08.920 I think if people want to really get an idea 2117 01:53:08.960 --> 01:53:11.720 of his style, there's a lot of nineteen sixties films 2118 01:53:11.720 --> 01:53:14.560 he did, or the films alone Kitty. I think a 2119 01:53:14.600 --> 01:53:17.560 friend of mine described it as impressionist one that I 2120 01:53:17.560 --> 01:53:20.640 do agree. There is a lot of quick cuts. To me, 2121 01:53:20.760 --> 01:53:24.520 it flows very naturally. There is zooms in it that 2122 01:53:25.439 --> 01:53:28.479 I think today are not that usual in the visual 2123 01:53:28.560 --> 01:53:32.880 language of most filmmakers, but they are masterfully done. And 2124 01:53:32.920 --> 01:53:36.439 it's basically these quick edits that form an impression of 2125 01:53:36.479 --> 01:53:39.800 the scene. I would say very playful. That's a word 2126 01:53:39.840 --> 01:53:42.600 that I could use. I think there are two films 2127 01:53:42.640 --> 01:53:45.640 to watch. One is called called kore Inngola in English 2128 01:53:45.680 --> 01:53:48.800 deadly sweet from the sixties, where he went to London 2129 01:53:48.840 --> 01:53:51.960 doing a low budget thriller crime film where he's just 2130 01:53:52.119 --> 01:53:56.119 so playful with the camera. The story is very simple, 2131 01:53:56.159 --> 01:53:58.760 but the style is elaborate. And then there's a film 2132 01:53:58.760 --> 01:54:01.359 Salone Kitty, which it did right before Caligula Away. He 2133 01:54:01.399 --> 01:54:05.560 had a bigger budget. And when I first watched Cinto 2134 01:54:05.640 --> 01:54:09.079 Bass's films, I was so impressed by the style because 2135 01:54:09.079 --> 01:54:12.119 I thought that's the style of visuals that I like. 2136 01:54:12.920 --> 01:54:15.560 I could say I didn't model my visual style after his. 2137 01:54:15.720 --> 01:54:18.479 It was more I had those ideas and I found him, 2138 01:54:18.479 --> 01:54:23.720 and that became something I really appreciated. And so when 2139 01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:27.000 I started doing films, I was very influenced also to 2140 01:54:27.159 --> 01:54:31.039 use zooms, to use quick cuts, and my own editing 2141 01:54:31.079 --> 01:54:34.840 style has been sometimes described to be reminiscent of his. 2142 01:54:35.880 --> 01:54:41.239 So I would say these quick unexpected cuts, interesting camera angles, 2143 01:54:42.039 --> 01:54:46.239 and an overall flow. Also, the soundtrack often flows very 2144 01:54:46.279 --> 01:54:49.319 well with the visual. When I think of Salone Kitty, 2145 01:54:49.359 --> 01:54:52.359 there is a sequence where a song is played on 2146 01:54:52.399 --> 01:54:55.159 the morning after which kind of reminds me of the 2147 01:54:55.159 --> 01:54:57.560 film Cabaret bit. And then you can just see how 2148 01:54:57.640 --> 01:55:01.079 one pan leads the next pan that leads to a zoom, 2149 01:55:01.159 --> 01:55:05.439 and it all moved very naturally. When I looked at 2150 01:55:05.439 --> 01:55:09.439 the raw footage for clicular, I'm jumping ahead a little 2151 01:55:09.439 --> 01:55:11.720 bit in the topic. But when I looked at the 2152 01:55:11.800 --> 01:55:15.159 raw footage or clicular in the archive, I got to 2153 01:55:15.239 --> 01:55:18.000 say I was hard to look at it and not 2154 01:55:18.039 --> 01:55:22.920 be able to edit it immediately. Because Tinto filmed multiple cameras. 2155 01:55:23.680 --> 01:55:26.840 I personally have used two cameras, and some films he 2156 01:55:27.000 --> 01:55:30.000 sometimes used more than that. And you can see they 2157 01:55:30.039 --> 01:55:32.840 cover a scene from various angles. There's a lot of 2158 01:55:32.880 --> 01:55:36.720 footage that was never intended to be seen that just 2159 01:55:36.920 --> 01:55:39.880 one camera adjusting or so. You have a lot of 2160 01:55:39.960 --> 01:55:42.279 zooms that look not very well, but then you have 2161 01:55:42.359 --> 01:55:44.479 zooms that look really good, and those were the ones 2162 01:55:44.520 --> 01:55:47.159 that were supposed to go in the film. You can 2163 01:55:47.199 --> 01:55:50.439 see that. I admired that style very much, and I 2164 01:55:50.439 --> 01:55:53.119 would say there's one film, The Key, Yeah, that A. 2165 01:55:53.199 --> 01:55:56.199 Tinto did in the early eighties. It also still preserves 2166 01:55:56.720 --> 01:55:59.640 this style. He has the style even in his later films, 2167 01:55:59.680 --> 01:56:02.159 but I would say until The Key, those films really 2168 01:56:02.159 --> 01:56:05.279 have the most distinct version of his visual style. 2169 01:56:05.880 --> 01:56:07.840 I know it must not be a very pleasant thing 2170 01:56:07.880 --> 01:56:10.039 to revisit, but I do want to take you back. 2171 01:56:10.199 --> 01:56:12.560 You moved off of the project, or you just told 2172 01:56:13.279 --> 01:56:14.800 you're not going to be a part of this. How 2173 01:56:14.840 --> 01:56:16.359 does that actually go down for you? 2174 01:56:17.159 --> 01:56:20.039 As Basically, I made my two conditions clear. I want 2175 01:56:20.079 --> 01:56:23.159 to be the one overlooking the digitization to know where 2176 01:56:23.199 --> 01:56:28.000 everything goes, and the editing has to happen without outside interference. 2177 01:56:28.680 --> 01:56:31.960 When I said this was it, I was not involved 2178 01:56:32.000 --> 01:56:33.520 in it. I made clear I don't want to be 2179 01:56:33.520 --> 01:56:38.640 involved in anything that doesn't reconstruct Tintobras's vision. It was 2180 01:56:38.680 --> 01:56:42.159 a very difficult time. I got to say. It wasn't easy. 2181 01:56:42.199 --> 01:56:44.600 It wasn't pleasant, though I did a lot of creative 2182 01:56:44.640 --> 01:56:48.199 things for myself, so I thought something has come out 2183 01:56:48.239 --> 01:56:50.119 of it. I didn't do nothing. I did do some 2184 01:56:50.199 --> 01:56:53.760 of my own films, which makes me very happy. But 2185 01:56:53.840 --> 01:56:56.359 over the years I never really wanted to talk about 2186 01:56:56.479 --> 01:56:59.880 this at all. And when you contacted me, I contemplate, 2187 01:57:00.199 --> 01:57:04.079 but I recalled our conversations and I thought, okay, I'll 2188 01:57:04.119 --> 01:57:07.239 open up about this. But it's still not easy. I 2189 01:57:07.279 --> 01:57:10.000 can tell you a moving memory that I don't know 2190 01:57:10.039 --> 01:57:14.079 about told people, but it was a very positive memory. Actually, 2191 01:57:14.520 --> 01:57:17.680 when I went to Penthouse in la in twenty sixteen 2192 01:57:18.000 --> 01:57:19.960 to look at the archive, and when I discovered a 2193 01:57:20.039 --> 01:57:22.720 work print which was a video copy of a sixteen 2194 01:57:22.760 --> 01:57:26.159 millimeter print that had been cut into thousands of pieces. 2195 01:57:26.239 --> 01:57:29.439 I explained that in the mission Calicular episode, and then 2196 01:57:29.479 --> 01:57:32.199 I went to Italy to show it to Tinto and 2197 01:57:32.279 --> 01:57:34.880 it was I was sa one of the most moving 2198 01:57:34.920 --> 01:57:38.239 moments I had when since the seventies, for the first 2199 01:57:38.279 --> 01:57:42.000 time he was able to actually watch his edit, and 2200 01:57:42.199 --> 01:57:45.640 I was astonished how well he remembered it. That basically, 2201 01:57:46.239 --> 01:57:49.520 we watch a scene and he finishes a line while 2202 01:57:49.520 --> 01:57:52.560 it is spoken in the film, and so on. I 2203 01:57:52.640 --> 01:57:56.119 think he hadn't rewatched Clicular for a long time. The 2204 01:57:56.760 --> 01:58:00.239 edition that had come out of the theatrical edition has 2205 01:58:00.279 --> 01:58:03.319 nothing to do with what he wanted. And at that moment, 2206 01:58:03.359 --> 01:58:06.920 I was so optimistic we could do something. I can 2207 01:58:06.920 --> 01:58:10.359 tell you my technical proposal I had back then. Because 2208 01:58:10.439 --> 01:58:14.239 Tinto is born in thirty three, he is now I 2209 01:58:14.239 --> 01:58:18.000 think he's ninety one already. How the time passes, So 2210 01:58:18.119 --> 01:58:21.920 I thought, reconstruct this film. The work print was in 2211 01:58:22.039 --> 01:58:24.840 black and white, but a lot of the color footage 2212 01:58:24.840 --> 01:58:28.880 still exists, most of it as negative film, but as 2213 01:58:28.880 --> 01:58:30.760 far as I was able to see, but I wasn't 2214 01:58:30.800 --> 01:58:34.359 able to see all the boxes. Not all the negatives survived, 2215 01:58:34.439 --> 01:58:37.319 but there was also positive film thirty five millimeter and 2216 01:58:37.359 --> 01:58:40.600 some sixteen millimeters reductions for the making of documentary they 2217 01:58:40.600 --> 01:58:43.560 had done in the seventies, so I wanted to scan 2218 01:58:43.840 --> 01:58:48.159 everything positive negative sixteen millimeter. This would have been a 2219 01:58:48.199 --> 01:58:51.239 major part of the restoration. To then find out which 2220 01:58:51.319 --> 01:58:54.920 is the best footage for each individual shot, then take 2221 01:58:54.960 --> 01:58:57.279 the sixteen milimeters black and white work print that I 2222 01:58:57.319 --> 01:59:00.560 had a video copy of and reconstruct that in color. 2223 01:59:01.319 --> 01:59:04.720 And that my idea was, I would do a preliminary 2224 01:59:04.960 --> 01:59:07.800 assembly of the rest of the film in the way 2225 01:59:07.800 --> 01:59:10.279 that I feel Tinto would like because it's such a 2226 01:59:10.279 --> 01:59:14.680 technical process, going through different materials and then visiting him 2227 01:59:14.960 --> 01:59:17.239 for as long as it takes for a few hours 2228 01:59:17.279 --> 01:59:20.479 per day to sit there with him. He can say 2229 01:59:20.520 --> 01:59:23.439 any changes, he can say anything should be different, and 2230 01:59:23.479 --> 01:59:26.000 so on, with hard drives of all the footage until 2231 01:59:26.000 --> 01:59:29.079 the film is done. And I always had the feeling, 2232 01:59:29.199 --> 01:59:32.079 if we get to do it that way, he would 2233 01:59:32.119 --> 01:59:35.000 be the hero. Obviously it would be his film coming out. 2234 01:59:35.119 --> 01:59:38.000 I would be an assistant editor and those in the 2235 01:59:38.159 --> 01:59:40.359 know would know what I had done. But I would 2236 01:59:40.359 --> 01:59:42.479 have been really happy about that, I got to say. 2237 01:59:43.520 --> 01:59:47.159 So that was my hope and Tinto is still around, 2238 01:59:47.800 --> 01:59:51.399 but I think what happened really wasn't easy for any 2239 01:59:51.439 --> 01:59:52.640 of us. Let's put it that way. 2240 01:59:53.399 --> 01:59:56.640 I'm surprised that Tinto is even able to speak these days, 2241 01:59:56.680 --> 01:59:59.119 because I just read how dement it he is in 2242 01:59:59.159 --> 02:00:02.439 every article all about this new cut that's come out. 2243 02:00:03.199 --> 02:00:07.439 That's the new producer of the Ultimate Cut, Thomas at. 2244 02:00:07.479 --> 02:00:10.840 Nigovin, Oh, what does he base it off? Has he 2245 02:00:10.920 --> 02:00:11.560 met Tinto? 2246 02:00:12.239 --> 02:00:15.359 He bases it off of a documentary from twenty thirteen 2247 02:00:15.479 --> 02:00:16.760 called Is Tinto Brass? 2248 02:00:17.720 --> 02:00:21.720 And he says the documentary would claim that Tinto has 2249 02:00:22.079 --> 02:00:23.279 mental problems. 2250 02:00:23.520 --> 02:00:26.000 Yeah, I've read that time and again at least four 2251 02:00:26.079 --> 02:00:27.279 or five sources. 2252 02:00:27.520 --> 02:00:30.119 It was present when Is Tinto Brass had its world 2253 02:00:30.159 --> 02:00:34.039 premiere at Venice Film Festival in twenty thirteen. Tinto told 2254 02:00:34.079 --> 02:00:37.039 me about it, and then I got an invite and 2255 02:00:37.119 --> 02:00:39.880 I watched Is Tinto Brass sitting in Venice at the 2256 02:00:39.880 --> 02:00:44.079 film Festival, sitting right behind Tinto, and Tinto was happy, 2257 02:00:44.119 --> 02:00:47.039 and I was also invited to the after parties. Tinto 2258 02:00:47.479 --> 02:00:51.680 would talk to people approached him. It was actually quite 2259 02:00:51.680 --> 02:00:54.880 a funny experience because sometimes people thought I didn't know Tinto, 2260 02:00:54.920 --> 02:00:58.199 and they try to introduce Tinto. Oh why are you 2261 02:00:58.199 --> 02:01:00.720 trying to introduce to me? We know each other. To me, 2262 02:01:00.840 --> 02:01:04.039 this is a very bizarre claim, is the way is 2263 02:01:04.079 --> 02:01:06.479 Tinto Brass that I watched in twenty thirteen at the 2264 02:01:06.560 --> 02:01:10.000 Venice Film Festival makes no such claim. Tinto talks about 2265 02:01:10.000 --> 02:01:12.960 his life, talks about all these things. He was sitting 2266 02:01:13.039 --> 02:01:14.880 right in front of me. I was sitting in the 2267 02:01:14.960 --> 02:01:18.960 row behind him. Then at a party people talked to him. 2268 02:01:19.000 --> 02:01:21.319 Maybe they changed the film after the world premiere, but 2269 02:01:21.399 --> 02:01:24.079 I doubt it. And I got to say when I 2270 02:01:24.159 --> 02:01:27.800 talked to Tinto, when we talked about his ms and 2271 02:01:27.920 --> 02:01:32.800 all that his memory was so good. And I remember 2272 02:01:32.920 --> 02:01:35.119 when I first met with him, it was I believe 2273 02:01:35.199 --> 02:01:38.000 twenty twelve, and I was so excited. I showed him 2274 02:01:38.079 --> 02:01:40.000 some papers I had written about his film Near was 2275 02:01:40.079 --> 02:01:43.039 Ubianco and I showed him the Calligular Thesis, and we 2276 02:01:43.119 --> 02:01:45.640 talked about so many things. And then there was this 2277 02:01:45.760 --> 02:01:48.880 retrospective of his works that happened at an independent film 2278 02:01:48.880 --> 02:01:52.840 festival in Hollywood, where I actually had the idea and 2279 02:01:52.840 --> 02:01:55.039 told the festival people, Hey, wouldn't it be an idea 2280 02:01:55.079 --> 02:01:57.800 to approach Tinto? So I had a lot to do 2281 02:01:57.920 --> 02:02:00.720 with him. His memory was so oh good. When we 2282 02:02:00.800 --> 02:02:03.439 talked about the work print of Caligula, I was amazed 2283 02:02:03.640 --> 02:02:06.159 how he was able to finish the lines that are spoken. 2284 02:02:07.079 --> 02:02:10.159 He gradually got more excited about this as it went on, 2285 02:02:10.359 --> 02:02:13.720 and there's a person approaching the scene, and right before 2286 02:02:13.720 --> 02:02:15.560 the person is approaching, he was like, oh, now this 2287 02:02:15.600 --> 02:02:18.119 one is coming in, and so on, and he was 2288 02:02:18.159 --> 02:02:21.119 happy to see the edits again and so on. Once. I 2289 02:02:21.119 --> 02:02:23.840 wouldn't go around making any claims about the man's mental 2290 02:02:23.880 --> 02:02:27.279 health based on I don't even know what it's based on. 2291 02:02:27.600 --> 02:02:30.760 So the film I saw didn't make any claim in 2292 02:02:30.800 --> 02:02:33.880 that way. If it would have made such claims, Tinto 2293 02:02:33.920 --> 02:02:37.319 would have reflected who was sitting there. And I remember 2294 02:02:37.359 --> 02:02:40.039 he was welcomed as the Maestro of Cinema at Venice 2295 02:02:40.079 --> 02:02:43.439 Film Festival and to meet was so excited to be 2296 02:02:43.479 --> 02:02:47.159 a guest there at the screening, and those were good days. 2297 02:02:47.840 --> 02:02:48.039 I mean. 2298 02:02:48.079 --> 02:02:50.279 I had a lot of conversations with Tinto over the 2299 02:02:50.359 --> 02:02:53.960 years about curricula and various levels of detail. I also 2300 02:02:54.039 --> 02:02:59.000 did some unpublished interviews with Tinto. I did one on 2301 02:02:59.079 --> 02:03:02.520 camera which could have been published at some later points 2302 02:03:02.600 --> 02:03:05.680 or so I would say Tinto has always been very 2303 02:03:05.680 --> 02:03:09.760 clear when speaking about his films, when speaking about his art, 2304 02:03:10.039 --> 02:03:14.279 I'm not in a position to judge anybody's mental capacities. 2305 02:03:14.399 --> 02:03:17.880 As a visitor and friend, I went there and nothing 2306 02:03:17.920 --> 02:03:21.600 weird occurred to me. He was just a kind, old 2307 02:03:21.720 --> 02:03:24.720 gentleman who loved talking about the films he had done 2308 02:03:24.760 --> 02:03:27.800 and who took interest in what I'm doing. Just a 2309 02:03:27.880 --> 02:03:30.279 nice man. I didn't know if it's anything, so to me, 2310 02:03:30.399 --> 02:03:33.279 this is all very bizarre to claim Otherwise. 2311 02:03:33.600 --> 02:03:35.359 Yeah, it sounds like he was very excited by the 2312 02:03:35.399 --> 02:03:38.279 idea of finally being able to revisit Caligula and be 2313 02:03:38.359 --> 02:03:40.159 able to make this the project that he wanted. 2314 02:03:40.800 --> 02:03:43.159 When I was eighteen, I felt so intense about this. 2315 02:03:44.079 --> 02:03:46.520 I still feel intense about it, though over the years 2316 02:03:46.560 --> 02:03:48.760 I tried not to think so much about it. But 2317 02:03:48.800 --> 02:03:51.680 basically I thought, with Salon Kitty Tin, who had a 2318 02:03:51.680 --> 02:03:54.680 bigger budget and he was able to use his cinematic language. 2319 02:03:55.079 --> 02:03:58.039 With Caligula, he had an even bigger budget and even 2320 02:03:58.119 --> 02:04:02.279 more sets and more actors who were internationally famous, what 2321 02:04:02.439 --> 02:04:05.119 kind of film he could have done there, with his style, 2322 02:04:05.199 --> 02:04:08.079 with its editing. So I got very excited on two 2323 02:04:08.079 --> 02:04:10.279 thousand and seven and I wrote my thesis. It stood 2324 02:04:10.279 --> 02:04:12.960 Gout Media University, who actually had a media in twenty 2325 02:04:12.960 --> 02:04:16.159 eleven my bachelor thesis. I updated it over the years 2326 02:04:16.359 --> 02:04:18.680 and on the internet there is a most recent version 2327 02:04:18.720 --> 02:04:21.720 which is a few years afterwards. Then I got in 2328 02:04:21.800 --> 02:04:24.279 contact with Tinto. I met one of his friends at 2329 02:04:24.279 --> 02:04:27.199 an LA film festival and he put me in touch. 2330 02:04:27.279 --> 02:04:30.279 I gave Tinto a call. I was so nervous, and 2331 02:04:30.359 --> 02:04:33.199 we met in Rome. It was beautiful and we talked 2332 02:04:33.199 --> 02:04:35.840 about his sixties and seventies films. He did a film 2333 02:04:35.880 --> 02:04:38.720 called drop Out and one called Labakanza, which I had 2334 02:04:38.720 --> 02:04:41.760 never seen, which I wanted to prepare for the festival 2335 02:04:41.760 --> 02:04:45.039 in La, which he was very happy to do, and 2336 02:04:45.199 --> 02:04:48.680 gradually I brought up the caligular topic. There is a 2337 02:04:48.720 --> 02:04:53.039 documentary around the time that the Imperial Edition DVD box 2338 02:04:53.159 --> 02:04:56.279 that was done in two thousand and seven. I remember 2339 02:04:56.319 --> 02:05:00.479 I was excited of getting it and underwhelmed and I 2340 02:05:00.520 --> 02:05:03.920 watched it because it was still largely the same cut, 2341 02:05:04.439 --> 02:05:06.800 though the pieces of the word print there were interesting. 2342 02:05:08.319 --> 02:05:11.960 And on that documentary called I Believe the Orgy of Power, 2343 02:05:12.560 --> 02:05:16.279 Tinto is saying that he really has no interest in 2344 02:05:16.319 --> 02:05:19.680 revisiting Clicula, and that was his stance for a long time. 2345 02:05:20.239 --> 02:05:24.159 When I first brought it up, he was skeptical, and understandably, 2346 02:05:25.159 --> 02:05:28.520 Then I showed him a reconstruction I had done I 2347 02:05:28.560 --> 02:05:32.279 had attempted with the footage available at that point, which 2348 02:05:32.359 --> 02:05:36.840 got him more positive about it. And I did an 2349 02:05:36.880 --> 02:05:39.359 interview with him that was shown on the Internet and 2350 02:05:39.359 --> 02:05:42.000 people got excited already in twenty thirteen. I believe what 2351 02:05:42.119 --> 02:05:45.000 he said, if he can get access to the entire footage, 2352 02:05:45.000 --> 02:05:47.119 it has to be done. It has to be I 2353 02:05:47.279 --> 02:05:49.319 think he used even these words, it has to be done, 2354 02:05:49.439 --> 02:05:53.600 something like that, and though it is a very delicate topic, 2355 02:05:53.680 --> 02:05:57.279 of course. And then when I got in contact with 2356 02:05:57.399 --> 02:06:01.439 Kelly Holland, which was say a big coincidence. I got 2357 02:06:01.479 --> 02:06:04.760 in contact with her shortly after she had acquired Penthouse, 2358 02:06:04.800 --> 02:06:07.039 and she was so open to this project. She allowed 2359 02:06:07.079 --> 02:06:09.560 me to go into the archive to actually see what 2360 02:06:09.680 --> 02:06:13.479 they have at in Mission calicular. We see how it goes. 2361 02:06:13.560 --> 02:06:16.880 Because I went to Penthouse in twenty sixteen and I 2362 02:06:16.960 --> 02:06:20.520 was given a box with a few video tapes basically saying, look, 2363 02:06:20.520 --> 02:06:23.279 this is the material we have about Calicula. Some hard 2364 02:06:23.319 --> 02:06:27.079 distant videotapes which are basically the masters for the Imperial 2365 02:06:27.239 --> 02:06:31.119 Edition DVD box set, and then calling around of your 2366 02:06:31.159 --> 02:06:34.680 people and so on. It was quite exciting. We were 2367 02:06:34.720 --> 02:06:38.560 able to locate the warehouse where the entire raw footage 2368 02:06:38.680 --> 02:06:42.439 was stored boxes up on boxes Mission calicular, you can 2369 02:06:42.439 --> 02:06:45.279 see the pictures I took on those days. It so 2370 02:06:45.359 --> 02:06:48.720 was such excitement. It felt like Christmas and Birthday and 2371 02:06:48.760 --> 02:06:51.840 all kinds of celebrations in one. And you know there is, 2372 02:06:51.880 --> 02:06:54.720 for example, the Russ Lloyd cut off a film which 2373 02:06:54.880 --> 02:06:57.960 is not of such great interest to me personally because 2374 02:06:58.000 --> 02:07:01.920 I want to reconstruct Hinto's vision. But for example, when 2375 02:07:02.000 --> 02:07:07.279 Tinto started editing Russ Lloyd and the team apparently started 2376 02:07:07.439 --> 02:07:11.520 editing the film parallel to his, which she actually wasn't 2377 02:07:11.520 --> 02:07:16.479 okay with from my knowledge, And when Tinto wasn't able 2378 02:07:16.520 --> 02:07:21.399 to continue editing, Ross Lloyd finished his Rosslloyd cut. But 2379 02:07:21.520 --> 02:07:24.640 then the producers in the seventies didn't like that cut 2380 02:07:24.800 --> 02:07:27.359 and shelve it and had Nino Barakli I believe, come 2381 02:07:27.359 --> 02:07:30.199 in to do some more editing. And there were just 2382 02:07:30.319 --> 02:07:32.920 cans with the Ross Lloyd cuts in black and white 2383 02:07:33.079 --> 02:07:36.319 thirty five millimeter film. I was thinking, if I did 2384 02:07:36.359 --> 02:07:40.159 this film, if we succeed with this project, we would 2385 02:07:40.199 --> 02:07:43.800 include so much bonus feature. It would be the reconstructed 2386 02:07:44.000 --> 02:07:47.159 hopefully their director's cut. If Tinto would participate and he 2387 02:07:47.199 --> 02:07:49.520 has the last word in editing, will do Tinto buses 2388 02:07:49.600 --> 02:07:52.560 director's cut on one disc. Another disc will be the 2389 02:07:52.640 --> 02:07:56.319 Ross Lloyd cut just for completionists and completely unknown edit 2390 02:07:56.359 --> 02:07:59.640 of the film. I found a silent thirty five millimeter 2391 02:08:00.079 --> 02:08:03.439 and white footage for the Rosslloyd cut. The audio must 2392 02:08:03.439 --> 02:08:07.159 have been somewhere else. Basically, these boxes were packed, and 2393 02:08:08.159 --> 02:08:10.560 I would say, if you looked at them as an outsider, 2394 02:08:10.840 --> 02:08:14.119 it wouldn't make so much sense. But if you knew 2395 02:08:14.119 --> 02:08:18.840 the production history, it started to make sense to me. 2396 02:08:18.920 --> 02:08:22.000 These boxes were packed chronologically. They first packed the footage 2397 02:08:22.039 --> 02:08:23.720 that they were done with at this point and so on. 2398 02:08:23.760 --> 02:08:26.520 That was impression I got. So I thought, we'll do 2399 02:08:26.680 --> 02:08:29.760 the Tinto vas cut hopefully if he participates, then we 2400 02:08:29.800 --> 02:08:32.039 do the Rouzlloyd cut as a bonus feature. Then we 2401 02:08:32.159 --> 02:08:35.399 might do the nineteen eighty R rated cut. Was it 2402 02:08:35.439 --> 02:08:38.920 eighty or eighty one? Eighty two eighty three? Sian So 2403 02:08:38.960 --> 02:08:40.920 I had the idea to do all these things to 2404 02:08:41.000 --> 02:08:44.439 add so much bonus material. There has always been these 2405 02:08:44.520 --> 02:08:48.840 rumors about a longer cut off Caliculus greening in Caun. 2406 02:08:49.680 --> 02:08:52.840 I'm not an expert on those rumors, because, as I said, 2407 02:08:52.880 --> 02:08:55.279 I was mostly interested in the production of the film, 2408 02:08:55.319 --> 02:08:58.199 not in the post production that happened when Tinto couldn't continue. 2409 02:08:59.000 --> 02:09:01.079 But I believe that it might be the footage that 2410 02:09:01.279 --> 02:09:04.800 was cut out of the con version. To my knowledge, 2411 02:09:04.920 --> 02:09:08.840 though I never confirmed, the impression was that at the 2412 02:09:08.960 --> 02:09:12.319 trade fair in cann they did show a longer version 2413 02:09:12.359 --> 02:09:15.960 of the film which included more hardcore pornography Bob Gucci 2414 02:09:15.960 --> 02:09:20.560 owners shot after the fact, so from my understanding, it 2415 02:09:20.600 --> 02:09:24.760 would be basically the regular theatrical version plus more pornography. 2416 02:09:25.279 --> 02:09:29.600 But I didn't get to watch that. An exciting and 2417 02:09:29.640 --> 02:09:33.640 at the same time sometimes somewhat frustrating experience, because when 2418 02:09:33.680 --> 02:09:37.359 you handle thirty five millimeter film you have to have 2419 02:09:37.399 --> 02:09:41.680 specialized machines to even view it, and I only had 2420 02:09:41.680 --> 02:09:44.319 access to such machines briefly, so I was able to 2421 02:09:44.359 --> 02:09:46.760 unspool some roles for a foot or two and look 2422 02:09:46.760 --> 02:09:48.840 at the pictures get an impression on was on it. 2423 02:09:49.880 --> 02:09:52.079 Then I was able to watch a few reels, which 2424 02:09:52.239 --> 02:09:57.399 was really interesting. Now combining multiple visits to the archive. 2425 02:09:58.439 --> 02:10:01.760 This the process of film preser is so interesting, especially 2426 02:10:01.800 --> 02:10:04.119 when you think about things like the audio, and that 2427 02:10:04.199 --> 02:10:07.920 you have so many things around audio. You've got the 2428 02:10:08.039 --> 02:10:12.720 production audio, you've got the ADR recordings, you've got sound 2429 02:10:12.720 --> 02:10:17.840 effects music. The music in the version of Caligi that 2430 02:10:17.920 --> 02:10:20.680 we've seen is so different than when I'm sure that 2431 02:10:20.800 --> 02:10:24.880 Tindergrass wanted and just to be able to bring back 2432 02:10:24.920 --> 02:10:28.359 that score would have been a real triumph. When Tinto 2433 02:10:28.479 --> 02:10:31.079 was in the midst of editing Callig You Love Fjorenzo Kapi, 2434 02:10:31.159 --> 02:10:34.399 the composer, was assigned as the composer for the film, 2435 02:10:34.520 --> 02:10:36.960 and Fiorenzo Capi had done music for other films of 2436 02:10:37.039 --> 02:10:41.680 Tinto already, for example Saloon Kitty. When you watch Salon Kitty, 2437 02:10:42.279 --> 02:10:45.399 a lot of the soundtrack. The film is set in 2438 02:10:45.439 --> 02:10:48.319 the late thirties early forties, and the soundtrack sound so 2439 02:10:48.439 --> 02:10:50.880 period correct. For a long time, I tried to find 2440 02:10:50.880 --> 02:10:53.600 the waltz from Salon Kitty, until I realized it's an 2441 02:10:53.640 --> 02:10:57.199 original composition for the movie. By now soundtrack has been 2442 02:10:57.239 --> 02:11:01.680 released and from an understand ending when Tinto did the film, 2443 02:11:02.159 --> 02:11:05.840 there were some temporary soundtracks in place already. I was 2444 02:11:05.880 --> 02:11:09.039 able to locate them also, which just gave the rhythm 2445 02:11:09.199 --> 02:11:12.560 for some scenes that had choreographies at them, and then 2446 02:11:12.640 --> 02:11:16.039 the final soundtrack would have largely been done after the 2447 02:11:16.079 --> 02:11:19.479 film is edited. That's why I thought I want to 2448 02:11:19.520 --> 02:11:22.920 have control over scanning and digitizing this archive, because it 2449 02:11:23.000 --> 02:11:26.399 was such a complex combination. Of course, we have the 2450 02:11:26.399 --> 02:11:29.560 final film with the final sound mix as it stands, 2451 02:11:29.600 --> 02:11:32.119 where you we have voices and music and everything together. 2452 02:11:33.000 --> 02:11:36.960 Then we have the individual redubbing reels. I remember a 2453 02:11:36.960 --> 02:11:40.199 lot of them where not in the best condition. They 2454 02:11:40.239 --> 02:11:44.319 have full code thirty five millimeter magnetic film, basically like 2455 02:11:44.359 --> 02:11:47.800 a cassette tape, just thirty five millimeter wide with perforation. 2456 02:11:48.439 --> 02:11:51.800 They gave off a very vinegary odor, which is a 2457 02:11:51.880 --> 02:11:55.800 sign that they're decomposing, but those can usually be played 2458 02:11:55.800 --> 02:11:57.520 back one more time if you bake them at a 2459 02:11:57.600 --> 02:12:00.960 high heat. So the idea was to also digitized the 2460 02:12:01.119 --> 02:12:05.720 entire audio and the onset audio as well. Though in 2461 02:12:05.760 --> 02:12:08.239 a lot of Tinto Brass's films, in the Italian films 2462 02:12:08.239 --> 02:12:12.439 of the seventies, the onset audio wasn't recorded with the 2463 02:12:12.479 --> 02:12:16.600 same care you would record it these days, because oftentimes 2464 02:12:16.600 --> 02:12:18.880 it was expected that the film would be redubbed, and 2465 02:12:19.520 --> 02:12:22.720 mostly it's just a temporary track to have a reference. 2466 02:12:23.560 --> 02:12:26.960 But the idea was to digitize the onset audio, the 2467 02:12:27.000 --> 02:12:30.960 post dubbing audio, and so on, assemble the film in 2468 02:12:31.159 --> 02:12:35.039 the reconstruction I assembled to showed you a few people 2469 02:12:35.039 --> 02:12:38.079 back then, with the permission of your rights holders, I 2470 02:12:38.319 --> 02:12:42.239 used some parts of Buono Nikolay's score for the final film, 2471 02:12:42.840 --> 02:12:46.279 and just some parts I felt are more appropriate, just 2472 02:12:46.279 --> 02:12:50.119 as a temporary placeholder. When you watch the theatrical cut 2473 02:12:50.119 --> 02:12:52.920 of Caliculi, it starts out with procoffee of Romeo and 2474 02:12:52.960 --> 02:12:57.520 Juliet's with this very grand classical music that wasn't supposed 2475 02:12:57.520 --> 02:12:59.560 to how the film starts at all. I was able 2476 02:12:59.600 --> 02:13:02.479 to recover struck the opening. It starts with a blurry 2477 02:13:02.479 --> 02:13:05.640 frame of Calicular's face. You have the credits underneath, and 2478 02:13:05.640 --> 02:13:09.560 it's very quiet, just a little bit of soundtrack underneath it. 2479 02:13:10.079 --> 02:13:13.800 And then suddenly it goes and focus on Calicular wakes 2480 02:13:13.880 --> 02:13:16.560 up from the nightmare. So that's the opening of the film, 2481 02:13:16.560 --> 02:13:19.279 for example, and that sets off a very different tone. 2482 02:13:19.960 --> 02:13:23.680 And I remember when I talked about doing this project, 2483 02:13:24.039 --> 02:13:26.760 coming from a technical background. Also, I was very much 2484 02:13:26.800 --> 02:13:30.119 thinking how do we approach this. I had the hope 2485 02:13:30.159 --> 02:13:32.760 that for a lot of the actors we would be 2486 02:13:32.760 --> 02:13:36.720 able to use their redubbed lines Peter O'Toole for example, 2487 02:13:36.720 --> 02:13:40.680 Surgeon Gielgud and so on. They came back after the 2488 02:13:40.720 --> 02:13:45.079 film was edited for its theatrical version to redo their lines. 2489 02:13:45.119 --> 02:13:47.960 We have very clear deliveries of them, but some of 2490 02:13:48.000 --> 02:13:51.279 their lines were not redubbed because the theatrical cut got 2491 02:13:51.359 --> 02:13:54.520 rid of some scenes. So I thought for some other lines, 2492 02:13:54.560 --> 02:13:57.359 we'll use the on set audio and digitally clean it up. 2493 02:13:57.920 --> 02:14:00.920 For example, the actor who portrays Mac Crow and the 2494 02:14:01.000 --> 02:14:05.520 actor Coo Portray's career, they had some strong Italian accents. 2495 02:14:05.600 --> 02:14:08.119 They are Italian actors, and they were always supposed to 2496 02:14:08.119 --> 02:14:11.640 be dubbed by some English or American actor, so I 2497 02:14:11.640 --> 02:14:15.000 thought some party would have to readub But basically my 2498 02:14:15.079 --> 02:14:17.399 idea was to rescue as much of the original audio 2499 02:14:17.399 --> 02:14:21.000 as possible, which was also have. This all explains why 2500 02:14:21.039 --> 02:14:24.000 this would have been a very big and tough project 2501 02:14:24.079 --> 02:14:28.359 to do, and I'm very perfectionist. When I look at 2502 02:14:28.399 --> 02:14:33.680 Tinto Brasse's edits, for example, the work print, my idea 2503 02:14:33.800 --> 02:14:36.640 was to reconstruct it in color from the negative footage 2504 02:14:36.680 --> 02:14:39.399 down to the last frame. So if a shot survives 2505 02:14:39.399 --> 02:14:42.359 in the negative, two frames short, I'm going to find 2506 02:14:42.359 --> 02:14:45.039 that shot in the positive and put those frames back there. 2507 02:14:45.079 --> 02:14:48.359 So I'm really a perfectionist when it comes to that, 2508 02:14:49.199 --> 02:14:53.479 And I felt that if Tinto is participating, it's his 2509 02:14:53.680 --> 02:14:57.119 cut anyway, and if Tinto wouldn't want to participate, and 2510 02:14:57.199 --> 02:15:00.199 if I reconstruct the film, I would do it as 2511 02:15:00.239 --> 02:15:03.720 faithfully as I can in his spirit, while always being 2512 02:15:03.760 --> 02:15:07.439 transparent that this is just an informed reconstruction. And it 2513 02:15:07.479 --> 02:15:09.800 was important to me that the final result in either 2514 02:15:09.840 --> 02:15:14.680 case should be a film that represents what Tintobrass was 2515 02:15:14.720 --> 02:15:17.560 going for in the seventies, as much as it's possible 2516 02:15:17.600 --> 02:15:21.479 to say. If he had done it himself now after decades, 2517 02:15:21.600 --> 02:15:23.239 it would have been his film. If I would have 2518 02:15:23.279 --> 02:15:25.239 done it, it would have been an informed reconstruction. 2519 02:15:25.880 --> 02:15:28.159 What sounds like you would have maybe needed more than 2520 02:15:28.239 --> 02:15:30.199 just you to do this. What kind of team would 2521 02:15:30.239 --> 02:15:31.159 you have put together for this? 2522 02:15:32.439 --> 02:15:36.399 I was actually in conversation with some professional technicians and 2523 02:15:36.560 --> 02:15:40.239 that was a wonderful time. And I don't know in 2524 02:15:40.239 --> 02:15:43.800 how much detail I can go. I should go. But 2525 02:15:43.840 --> 02:15:47.520 basically I felt there were some people who were very 2526 02:15:47.560 --> 02:15:50.000 knowledgeable about this, who were very on board with this. 2527 02:15:50.119 --> 02:15:53.880 There was a time, even after Mission Caligula, I was 2528 02:15:54.199 --> 02:15:58.720 very optimistic this could be done to a high technical standard. 2529 02:15:59.439 --> 02:16:02.840 Do you even show that a little bit in Mission Caligula? 2530 02:16:02.920 --> 02:16:06.399 I remember one sequence particularly where you had the black 2531 02:16:06.439 --> 02:16:09.439 and white footage and then you do a pushover and 2532 02:16:09.479 --> 02:16:12.680 you've got the colored footage there, So you're showing split 2533 02:16:12.720 --> 02:16:17.399 screen of new, pristine looking footage on one side and 2534 02:16:17.479 --> 02:16:19.960 then the black and white workprint on the other, And 2535 02:16:20.000 --> 02:16:21.880 I'm just like, wow, if this is a promise of 2536 02:16:21.920 --> 02:16:24.399 things to come, that's going to be pretty awesome. 2537 02:16:25.119 --> 02:16:28.600 That particular shot was the same in Tinto's workprint and 2538 02:16:28.720 --> 02:16:32.399 in the released cut. When Russ Lloyd did his cut 2539 02:16:32.520 --> 02:16:37.280 in the seventies and then Tinto wasn't there anymore. He 2540 02:16:37.440 --> 02:16:40.719 was dismissed that people after Rouss Lloyd took some shots 2541 02:16:40.719 --> 02:16:43.159 from Tinto's cut and put them back into the final film. 2542 02:16:43.239 --> 02:16:45.120 So a few shots that already had in color, but 2543 02:16:45.200 --> 02:16:48.200 most of it would have been you. I got to say, 2544 02:16:48.200 --> 02:16:51.319 the Rouss Lloyd cut it wasn't interesting look using a 2545 02:16:51.360 --> 02:16:55.120 lot of different footage, but I used interesting in a 2546 02:16:55.159 --> 02:16:58.280 neutral way. I vastly preferred, but Tinto busted. 2547 02:16:59.559 --> 02:17:02.319 You talk about the print that you put together that 2548 02:17:02.360 --> 02:17:08.399 you were reviewed with Tinto, and with that using still frames, 2549 02:17:08.559 --> 02:17:12.360 reconstructing things that way inside a mission. Colleagul, though you 2550 02:17:12.479 --> 02:17:16.479 have the sequence of Caligula and Longiness and everybody else 2551 02:17:16.520 --> 02:17:21.000 at that big party doing the whole thing of Caesar says. 2552 02:17:21.040 --> 02:17:23.600 Sign of what you were showing to Tinto is that 2553 02:17:23.600 --> 02:17:26.959 what you had reconstructed the idea of the stills with 2554 02:17:27.440 --> 02:17:28.600 the subtitles. 2555 02:17:28.959 --> 02:17:31.920 Yes, the version that I showed him around twenty thirteen 2556 02:17:32.799 --> 02:17:36.760 was trying to tighten the editing using alternate footage where 2557 02:17:36.760 --> 02:17:38.520 I found it and where the footage was missing. I 2558 02:17:38.600 --> 02:17:42.440 used stills and subtitles to give an indication of what 2559 02:17:42.639 --> 02:17:45.280 was to come. It was ever supposed to be released 2560 02:17:45.280 --> 02:17:47.639 that way, and it hasn't been released that way. But 2561 02:17:48.360 --> 02:17:52.479 this was my idea and basically, if I talk about 2562 02:17:52.479 --> 02:17:55.040 it from my old personal experience, it was a huge 2563 02:17:55.159 --> 02:17:59.639 puzzle and a hugely exciting research project. Do's imagine when 2564 02:17:59.639 --> 02:18:02.399 you get the still frames, when you suddenly find the 2565 02:18:02.399 --> 02:18:04.840 footage in motion and you see it for the first time. 2566 02:18:04.920 --> 02:18:08.079 It is there are scenes in the film that have 2567 02:18:08.159 --> 02:18:11.280 waded into intended the film, then Temple of Jupiter in 2568 02:18:11.319 --> 02:18:14.079 the third act that are not in the theatrical version, 2569 02:18:14.479 --> 02:18:17.680 where Calicular jumps into all these coins, which is shot 2570 02:18:17.719 --> 02:18:20.600 in slow motion in the treasury, and so on. And 2571 02:18:20.639 --> 02:18:24.520 there's one scene which I was able to reconstruct. This 2572 02:18:24.719 --> 02:18:27.440 was a tough reconstruction. You see it in Mission Curricular 2573 02:18:28.159 --> 02:18:31.079 on the ship in the end there is this already seen. 2574 02:18:31.440 --> 02:18:35.319 Everybody is standing completely still when Calcular walks onto the 2575 02:18:35.360 --> 02:18:38.799 ship and she asks are we ready or so? And 2576 02:18:38.840 --> 02:18:42.600 then he shouts back and then everyone starts moving. And 2577 02:18:42.760 --> 02:18:46.440 to reconstruct that first I had subtitles. Then I found 2578 02:18:46.520 --> 02:18:50.639 in the making documentary I believe of Calicular from the 2579 02:18:50.680 --> 02:18:53.959 seventies at some point. I believe it was there. My 2580 02:18:54.040 --> 02:18:57.319 memory is not as clear about this because I've not 2581 02:18:57.479 --> 02:19:00.639 thoughts about it in five years or so. But in 2582 02:19:00.680 --> 02:19:02.959 the making of documentary, I believe there was a part 2583 02:19:03.000 --> 02:19:05.879 where you hear Malcolm McDowell's shouting action and then I 2584 02:19:05.959 --> 02:19:08.440 realized waits from this shot, so I put it there. 2585 02:19:09.239 --> 02:19:12.639 And with a lot of scenes, I couldn't wait to 2586 02:19:12.680 --> 02:19:16.520 have the negatives digitized and the positives if some negative 2587 02:19:16.520 --> 02:19:20.799 footage is missing, and you shall I explain what negative 2588 02:19:20.799 --> 02:19:22.600 and positive is to some listeners. 2589 02:19:23.319 --> 02:19:26.799 So negative footage is whenever there's killing or rapes or anything, 2590 02:19:26.840 --> 02:19:29.879 and positive footage is like when they're outdoors and there's 2591 02:19:29.959 --> 02:19:31.040 sunshine and things. 2592 02:19:31.120 --> 02:19:34.200 Right. I just imagine if someone assumes that, like what 2593 02:19:34.360 --> 02:19:36.440 kind of person I would sound? I want to use 2594 02:19:36.479 --> 02:19:41.799 the negative footage wherever possible. And so all film connoisseurs, 2595 02:19:41.840 --> 02:19:44.639 I apologize and make you to grief. But when you 2596 02:19:44.680 --> 02:19:47.840 shoot a film, it's shot up on negative film stock. 2597 02:19:48.799 --> 02:19:51.639 You know it from photography where for example, the darkest 2598 02:19:51.680 --> 02:19:55.319 part is white for example in the footage, and then 2599 02:19:55.840 --> 02:19:58.120 when you make a copy of that negative, it becomes 2600 02:19:58.120 --> 02:20:00.120 the positive. So when you have a film pri and 2601 02:20:00.520 --> 02:20:04.280 Queen and Theaters, it's made from a copy of the negative, 2602 02:20:04.840 --> 02:20:07.959 which is positive, and you can project that, and the 2603 02:20:08.079 --> 02:20:12.479 process has an inherent quality loss to it, because the 2604 02:20:12.520 --> 02:20:16.040 negative has the highest quality. A positive copy has a 2605 02:20:16.079 --> 02:20:18.719 loss in quality. If you make an internegative from a 2606 02:20:18.760 --> 02:20:22.920 positive copy, it is even grainier. And when Tinto edited 2607 02:20:23.000 --> 02:20:29.239 Callicula in the seventies, they did thirty five millimeters positive 2608 02:20:29.280 --> 02:20:32.799 copies of all the footage. You usually don't edit the 2609 02:20:32.799 --> 02:20:36.040 film with the negative footage initially because when editing you 2610 02:20:36.040 --> 02:20:38.600 cut it apart, it gets dusty, it gets dirty. You'll 2611 02:20:39.079 --> 02:20:41.399 put it together, you cut it apart, you work with it, 2612 02:20:41.799 --> 02:20:45.440 and only when you finalize the edit that's made from 2613 02:20:45.520 --> 02:20:49.200 positive footage. Then in a lab the negative is edited 2614 02:20:49.399 --> 02:20:52.879 in a way to conform that on the lab condition 2615 02:20:52.959 --> 02:20:55.079 so it doesn't get dirty. So the lap is usually 2616 02:20:55.079 --> 02:21:00.040 the most protected, and in Calicular's case, Tinto edited the 2617 02:21:00.079 --> 02:21:03.920 film on thirty five millimeter positive material. I'm pretty certain 2618 02:21:03.959 --> 02:21:07.920 about that. Then his work print was taken apart and 2619 02:21:07.959 --> 02:21:10.639 the copy was made on sixteen millimeter film. That was 2620 02:21:10.639 --> 02:21:13.280 the copy of his work print that I found, And 2621 02:21:13.399 --> 02:21:15.879 I found in the archived a lot of thirty five 2622 02:21:15.920 --> 02:21:20.440 millimeter positive material left over from editing, and then there 2623 02:21:20.479 --> 02:21:23.399 were parts of the negative. But a lot of the 2624 02:21:23.440 --> 02:21:27.600 negative obviously has already cut apart to include parts used 2625 02:21:27.600 --> 02:21:30.840 in the theatrical cut. So the negative of Calicula, I 2626 02:21:30.879 --> 02:21:34.719 don't know how much survived. Large parts survived, but I 2627 02:21:34.799 --> 02:21:37.959 figured when I edit the film, we'll scan everything. The 2628 02:21:38.040 --> 02:21:41.440 negative footage has the highest resolution, the best quality, so 2629 02:21:41.479 --> 02:21:45.280 we're going to use that wherever possible. But if Tinto 2630 02:21:45.680 --> 02:21:47.719 chose a different shot in his work print that's no 2631 02:21:47.840 --> 02:21:50.840 longer available in the negative footage, or of which maybe 2632 02:21:50.840 --> 02:21:53.840 only half survives negative footage, we'll go to the thirty 2633 02:21:53.840 --> 02:21:56.280 five millimeter positive footage. We're going to clean it up 2634 02:21:56.319 --> 02:21:59.280 and use it substituted from there. It would have meant 2635 02:21:59.280 --> 02:22:01.959 some shots. It might have been more grainy than others, 2636 02:22:02.040 --> 02:22:04.959 but I don't think it would have been very noticeable. 2637 02:22:05.760 --> 02:22:08.479 I felt that a lot of film stock was a 2638 02:22:08.600 --> 02:22:12.760 much better condition than I had anticipated. To be honest, 2639 02:22:12.760 --> 02:22:15.680 I was very looking forward to having it all scanned 2640 02:22:15.680 --> 02:22:20.000 in lab conditions and having a huge database. I was 2641 02:22:20.040 --> 02:22:23.719 also thinking about all the bonus material. I can tell 2642 02:22:23.760 --> 02:22:25.600 you a few ideas that were going through my mind 2643 02:22:25.639 --> 02:22:29.799 at that point because the archive was exciting or suggesting 2644 02:22:29.799 --> 02:22:32.079 it to Kelly Holland, if I do this project, I 2645 02:22:32.159 --> 02:22:35.280 might have a blog or a podcast or something where 2646 02:22:35.360 --> 02:22:38.520 I show weekly discoveries from the archive, maybe parts of 2647 02:22:38.559 --> 02:22:41.239 the raw footage that are not used in the film 2648 02:22:41.280 --> 02:22:44.319 but that are interesting, or paperwork or still photos. There 2649 02:22:44.319 --> 02:22:46.799 were more than ten thousand still photos in that archive, 2650 02:22:46.840 --> 02:22:50.639 behind the scenes photos and so on. Yeah, because my 2651 02:22:50.680 --> 02:22:53.920 idea used the negative footage the highest quality wherever possible. 2652 02:22:55.040 --> 02:22:57.879 I guess there are many proper film restorations done that way, 2653 02:22:57.920 --> 02:23:02.079 where they source footage from various isn't assemble the best 2654 02:23:02.079 --> 02:23:04.479 possible version that adheres to the artistic intention. 2655 02:23:05.280 --> 02:23:07.920 I keep thinking of jigsaw puzzles, especially because this was 2656 02:23:08.000 --> 02:23:10.399 right before the pandemic, and I keep thinking this would 2657 02:23:10.399 --> 02:23:15.719 have been Alexander's pandemic project, his major jigsaw puzzle that 2658 02:23:15.799 --> 02:23:19.319 he's doing throughout that time. When you do a puzzle, 2659 02:23:19.440 --> 02:23:21.799 you've got the box cover and you know what you're 2660 02:23:21.840 --> 02:23:24.360 aiming for, and it feels like you were the one 2661 02:23:24.360 --> 02:23:27.440 that designed the box cover. By finding the work print 2662 02:23:27.760 --> 02:23:31.239 the first eighty four minutes, piecing together all of these 2663 02:23:31.280 --> 02:23:34.879 other scenes that would have been inside of Tinto's version 2664 02:23:34.959 --> 02:23:37.719 of it, so it feels like you were aiming at 2665 02:23:37.760 --> 02:23:39.799 your own box cover. In a way. 2666 02:23:40.440 --> 02:23:43.520 All I did was reconstructing what I could find out 2667 02:23:43.520 --> 02:23:46.719 about Tinto's version, and of course the first half with 2668 02:23:46.799 --> 02:23:50.559 the discovery of his work print, that was very exciting 2669 02:23:51.040 --> 02:23:54.559 because that removed all the guests work except for the 2670 02:23:54.600 --> 02:23:57.600 beginning I think read to five minutes in the beginning 2671 02:23:57.600 --> 02:24:00.959 we're missing, but I was able to record construct something 2672 02:24:01.000 --> 02:24:05.920 already and it worked quite well, and the second half 2673 02:24:05.959 --> 02:24:08.479 of the film I have an idea of what it 2674 02:24:08.600 --> 02:24:11.360 was supposed to be like. I also a conversation with 2675 02:24:11.440 --> 02:24:13.959 Tinto and so on. Though I have to say my 2676 02:24:14.760 --> 02:24:17.760 vast preference would have been to do something and then 2677 02:24:17.840 --> 02:24:20.639 go to Tinto and if he has completely different ideas, 2678 02:24:20.680 --> 02:24:23.399 we throw what I did out and do what he wants. 2679 02:24:23.479 --> 02:24:26.600 That was my idea. I was actually very exciting to 2680 02:24:26.680 --> 02:24:29.479 revisit it with him. My idea was to do all 2681 02:24:29.520 --> 02:24:32.600 the preparation work, and as I said, I wanted to 2682 02:24:32.600 --> 02:24:35.239 do a preliminary edit of the entire film that I 2683 02:24:35.319 --> 02:24:37.920 feel works well, where I would just have taken his 2684 02:24:38.000 --> 02:24:42.200 first eighty four minutes and then the second half with 2685 02:24:42.280 --> 02:24:44.959 the footage that I found. Because it's such a huge 2686 02:24:44.959 --> 02:24:47.959 and technical process, you have to go through all the 2687 02:24:48.000 --> 02:24:50.600 different versions of the material and so on. So that 2688 02:24:50.920 --> 02:24:53.120 would have been ten hours a day or whatever it takes. 2689 02:24:53.840 --> 02:24:56.799 When that is done, traveled to him and casually go 2690 02:24:56.920 --> 02:25:00.520 over it with him day by day. Tell me enough 2691 02:25:00.520 --> 02:25:03.479 how much I looked forward to that opportunity, and so 2692 02:25:03.639 --> 02:25:06.120 to me, it was always very clear that Tintobrass has 2693 02:25:06.200 --> 02:25:09.319 to be involved. He has to be asked. I felt, 2694 02:25:09.479 --> 02:25:11.479 if he decides not to do it as I said, 2695 02:25:11.520 --> 02:25:14.000 I would have done a reconstruction that would have been 2696 02:25:14.360 --> 02:25:17.040 very clear about what it is. But to me, it 2697 02:25:17.079 --> 02:25:18.440 was important that he should be in. 2698 02:25:19.200 --> 02:25:22.559 After you were removed from the project, did anybody ask 2699 02:25:22.639 --> 02:25:25.479 you for your box cover? Did anybody say, hey, you 2700 02:25:25.559 --> 02:25:28.000 already have a reconstruction, can we use this? 2701 02:25:28.959 --> 02:25:33.559 Early on, when this other project started, I got contacted 2702 02:25:33.760 --> 02:25:38.520 and asked if I could just show the work print 2703 02:25:38.680 --> 02:25:43.840 or my research. Basically I hadn't taken any physical material 2704 02:25:43.879 --> 02:25:46.159 from the archive. It was a video copy of file 2705 02:25:46.280 --> 02:25:48.360 that I had with the permission of Kelly Holland that 2706 02:25:49.159 --> 02:25:54.600 I restored, and basically I was very skeptical, what is 2707 02:25:54.600 --> 02:25:59.840 happening here and why would I hand out the research? 2708 02:26:00.000 --> 02:26:02.600 What's going on? And I mentioned that this is all 2709 02:26:02.760 --> 02:26:06.840 stuff that I have done over big years, pretty valuable 2710 02:26:06.840 --> 02:26:09.559 to me. And I had also never gotten paid for 2711 02:26:09.639 --> 02:26:12.959 anything all my calicular research. I can say I never 2712 02:26:13.000 --> 02:26:15.959 got paid for anything I did over these years. Everything 2713 02:26:16.000 --> 02:26:19.079 happened out of idealism. Some people actually reached out to 2714 02:26:19.120 --> 02:26:20.559 me over the years and asked me if I had 2715 02:26:20.600 --> 02:26:24.200 made money from this. No, not even mission calicular is monetized. 2716 02:26:24.239 --> 02:26:26.360 It's for free on YouTube. You can just watch it. 2717 02:26:27.000 --> 02:26:31.840 And so basically I felt uncomfortable handing out the research 2718 02:26:32.159 --> 02:26:35.079 the work print without knowing what happens to it. I 2719 02:26:35.120 --> 02:26:39.920 want to keep Tinto's vision intact. But after my first hesitation, 2720 02:26:39.959 --> 02:26:42.799 I never got asked again, so no one really tried. 2721 02:26:43.479 --> 02:26:46.399 So what ended up being your pandemic project? What happened 2722 02:26:46.639 --> 02:26:50.319 during twenty twenty twenty one? As you're in the world 2723 02:26:50.719 --> 02:26:53.920 being shut down, just like I was, just like everybody listening. 2724 02:26:53.719 --> 02:26:59.000 Was actually there was a project. I'm pretty excited it happened. 2725 02:26:59.040 --> 02:27:01.920 I did a feature of them called fatzen Legen, which 2726 02:27:01.959 --> 02:27:05.440 I shot in Paris in twenty nineteen in late twenty nineteen, 2727 02:27:05.840 --> 02:27:09.559 which was completely improvised, and I felt a little bit 2728 02:27:09.559 --> 02:27:11.760 as if I'm doing a nineteen sixties film where you 2729 02:27:11.959 --> 02:27:15.440 just improvise everything on the go, and I came back 2730 02:27:15.520 --> 02:27:19.719 with so much footage. When the first lockdowns hit, I 2731 02:27:19.799 --> 02:27:22.719 was in Los Angeles for a film premiere in February 2732 02:27:22.719 --> 02:27:25.920 of twenty twenty. I returned to Germany on March thirteen 2733 02:27:26.000 --> 02:27:29.639 or fourteen, twenty twenty, right into the lockdown, but I 2734 02:27:29.680 --> 02:27:31.959 went straight at home and started to edit the film 2735 02:27:32.000 --> 02:27:34.040 for about a year. I had so much time to 2736 02:27:34.159 --> 02:27:37.159 edit it, and I'm very happy how that turned out. 2737 02:27:38.000 --> 02:27:41.360 And to me, that's for silver lining, because if I 2738 02:27:41.399 --> 02:27:43.920 had done Caligula, I couldn't have done that film. I 2739 02:27:43.959 --> 02:27:45.760 would have loved to do Cliicula, but as I was 2740 02:27:45.879 --> 02:27:50.920 unable to reconstruct Tinto's version, I just thought, okay, whatever, 2741 02:27:50.959 --> 02:27:53.959 I'll go to Paris. I'll improvise a film, and I'm 2742 02:27:54.040 --> 02:27:58.159 extremely proud of it. It's largely improvised. I tried to 2743 02:27:58.200 --> 02:28:00.680 make it as elegant as possible, and when I came back, 2744 02:28:00.719 --> 02:28:03.760 I had a huge bunch of footage and I myself 2745 02:28:03.799 --> 02:28:05.760 had no idea how to put it together. It was 2746 02:28:05.799 --> 02:28:08.360 a digsaw puzzle that developed, and that was my idea 2747 02:28:08.399 --> 02:28:12.639 when doing it. So the first knockdown I didn't even 2748 02:28:12.719 --> 02:28:15.879 notice much because I was sitting at home. Anyway, I 2749 02:28:15.920 --> 02:28:18.680 remember there was a meme someone sent me which was 2750 02:28:18.760 --> 02:28:21.559 so accurate. You saw a guy in a dark room 2751 02:28:21.600 --> 02:28:24.280 sitting in front of the computer and it said film editor. 2752 02:28:24.680 --> 02:28:27.600 Underneath this the same picture film editor in Lockdown. 2753 02:28:28.440 --> 02:28:32.399 In the years since, we did both Caligular Air Mission 2754 02:28:32.440 --> 02:28:36.200 Caligular episodes of the Projection Booth. I've been inundated with 2755 02:28:36.440 --> 02:28:40.319 people sending me updates about this new cut, the ultimate 2756 02:28:40.360 --> 02:28:43.000 cut is what they're calling yet so much so that 2757 02:28:43.040 --> 02:28:45.559 I've had the black people because it's just I can't 2758 02:28:45.559 --> 02:28:50.360 be as invested in this as other people are. I'm 2759 02:28:50.399 --> 02:28:52.440 sure you've experienced the same thing. 2760 02:28:53.120 --> 02:28:55.719 It's actually one of the reasons why I'm so grateful 2761 02:28:55.719 --> 02:28:58.920 that we were able to do this interview today, because 2762 02:28:58.959 --> 02:29:02.760 I get so many message and many messages are basically, oh, 2763 02:29:02.799 --> 02:29:05.479 you have to be so happy. Without you, this wouldn't exist, 2764 02:29:05.559 --> 02:29:08.360 and so on, and I think a lot of people 2765 02:29:08.399 --> 02:29:12.360 don't realize some of them might have the mistaken belief 2766 02:29:12.399 --> 02:29:16.959 that this new cut reconstructs Tintobrass's version. Tinder Boss himself 2767 02:29:17.079 --> 02:29:20.959 distances himself from that version publicly did so in an article. 2768 02:29:21.719 --> 02:29:24.120 Then I have those people say, oh, it doesn't matter 2769 02:29:24.120 --> 02:29:26.520 if you're not involved. It's great that the film comes 2770 02:29:26.520 --> 02:29:29.360 out in a new cut. But basically, my aim was 2771 02:29:29.440 --> 02:29:33.360 always to release a film that adheres to the artistic 2772 02:29:33.399 --> 02:29:36.440 intentions of the director who was assigned to do it, 2773 02:29:36.479 --> 02:29:38.879 who spent a lot of time to do it, And 2774 02:29:39.760 --> 02:29:42.120 basically that's why I'm also not interested in the new 2775 02:29:42.159 --> 02:29:45.000 cut myself, I couldn't want it. I think I don't 2776 02:29:45.040 --> 02:29:47.840 want to watch it because to me, it's just another 2777 02:29:47.920 --> 02:29:52.239 version of the film that yet again does something different 2778 02:29:52.280 --> 02:29:56.600 than what the director aimed for. And I was always 2779 02:29:57.120 --> 02:29:59.559 when I looked at the post production in the seventies. 2780 02:29:59.600 --> 02:30:03.520 That's what I can comment on. When Tinto Bus was dismissed, 2781 02:30:04.200 --> 02:30:07.159 they tried to change the tone. They re ordered scenes, 2782 02:30:07.159 --> 02:30:09.920 they removed scenes, and so on. They edited it in 2783 02:30:09.959 --> 02:30:12.799 a slower way, so the entire film felt more so 2784 02:30:12.840 --> 02:30:16.680 though moving. I wondered why no one had the idea 2785 02:30:16.719 --> 02:30:18.879 to just go and at least attempt to have the 2786 02:30:18.920 --> 02:30:21.920 same scene order. We have these scenes that the director shot, 2787 02:30:22.040 --> 02:30:26.280 put them in the right correct order. Though, I feel 2788 02:30:26.440 --> 02:30:30.639 any editor working on that material has to have a 2789 02:30:30.719 --> 02:30:33.799 very deep knowledge of Tinto's films. I can tell when 2790 02:30:33.799 --> 02:30:37.040 I looked at the raw footage. To me, it's obvious 2791 02:30:37.159 --> 02:30:40.079 because when you look at my raw footage, it's also 2792 02:30:40.200 --> 02:30:42.559 very similar. With video, it doesn't matter how much to 2793 02:30:42.559 --> 02:30:45.000 your film. So very often I just leave a camera 2794 02:30:45.120 --> 02:30:47.479 running and you have a very beautiful zoom, and then 2795 02:30:47.520 --> 02:30:49.719 you have a really awkward zoom, which is just setting 2796 02:30:49.760 --> 02:30:52.159 it up for a different view and so on. And 2797 02:30:52.159 --> 02:30:54.799 when you looked at the footage of Calicula, I saw 2798 02:30:54.879 --> 02:30:59.000 all these incredibly beautiful moments, and then I saw these 2799 02:30:59.040 --> 02:31:02.879 moments that were obviously never meant to be included, which 2800 02:31:02.920 --> 02:31:06.760 looked awkward, as on the camera operator readjusting his lens 2801 02:31:06.799 --> 02:31:10.239 and so on, And I felt you have to watch 2802 02:31:10.360 --> 02:31:14.079 Tinto's films thoroughly to get an idea of how he 2803 02:31:14.239 --> 02:31:18.159 uses that, which shots to use which. When I watched 2804 02:31:18.159 --> 02:31:20.639 his work print and when I watched the raw footage, 2805 02:31:20.719 --> 02:31:23.719 I can tell you that there is a very elegantly 2806 02:31:23.799 --> 02:31:29.479 filmed motion picture there with Clicula, which just hadn't come out. 2807 02:31:29.799 --> 02:31:32.239 And I've not watched the new edition. As I said, 2808 02:31:32.239 --> 02:31:35.360 I don't intend to watch it. But if that doesn't 2809 02:31:36.120 --> 02:31:39.920 adhere to Tinto Buss's intentions, I think the motion picture 2810 02:31:39.920 --> 02:31:42.639 that Tinto wanted is still hidden. 2811 02:31:42.920 --> 02:31:45.799 I think I would almost be curious for you to 2812 02:31:46.040 --> 02:31:48.799 take some of the footage that's been released in this 2813 02:31:48.959 --> 02:31:51.639 ultimate cut and then go back to your work print again, 2814 02:31:51.680 --> 02:31:54.000 which I'm sure you have no interest in doing. But 2815 02:31:54.840 --> 02:31:58.559 there are now more things such as the Caesar says 2816 02:31:58.920 --> 02:32:03.520 sequences there maybe not edited in the way that Tinto 2817 02:32:03.559 --> 02:32:06.319 would have done it. But it is interesting to see 2818 02:32:06.319 --> 02:32:08.319 some of these things that I've only heard about and 2819 02:32:08.399 --> 02:32:12.719 that you've shown me via Mission Caligula to be able 2820 02:32:12.719 --> 02:32:15.200 to say, oh, okay, this is the scene. This is 2821 02:32:15.200 --> 02:32:18.559 what Alexander was talking about, like with Nervo as far 2822 02:32:18.600 --> 02:32:22.520 as his suicide. But it is interesting now to finally 2823 02:32:23.200 --> 02:32:26.639 see a little bit more of what you've brought to 2824 02:32:26.719 --> 02:32:27.719 light in the past. 2825 02:32:28.479 --> 02:32:32.360 There are two sequences that I personally have a high 2826 02:32:32.440 --> 02:32:34.879 interest in. There is a sequence in the Temple of 2827 02:32:34.959 --> 02:32:40.360 Jupiter which was cut entirely from the final theatrical film, 2828 02:32:40.520 --> 02:32:44.879 where Caligula is supposed to sacrifice a bull and instead 2829 02:32:44.920 --> 02:32:48.760 he kills a priest and then talks about Jupiter. And 2830 02:32:48.799 --> 02:32:51.319 then he's raising fun where they collect coins and he 2831 02:32:51.399 --> 02:32:55.479 jumps into those coins. When I reconstructed it, I knew 2832 02:32:55.520 --> 02:32:58.280 one camera angle of that. I wonder how it's done here. 2833 02:32:59.120 --> 02:33:00.520 Unfortunately it's not done here. 2834 02:33:01.120 --> 02:33:03.479 What how is this Centle of Jupiter done? 2835 02:33:03.520 --> 02:33:03.719 Then? 2836 02:33:04.479 --> 02:33:07.200 I don't remember there being a Temple of Jupiter sequence 2837 02:33:07.200 --> 02:33:07.479 at all. 2838 02:33:07.520 --> 02:33:11.040 In this new version, we have Calicular declare himself a 2839 02:33:11.120 --> 02:33:14.559 god in the Senate. Then it cuts to Calicular in 2840 02:33:14.600 --> 02:33:18.959 Sesonia speaking while Cesnia is massaging him, standing on him 2841 02:33:19.000 --> 02:33:22.280 and so on. Then we cut to the temple of 2842 02:33:22.360 --> 02:33:26.719 Jupiter where he replaces the statue's heads with his. I 2843 02:33:26.719 --> 02:33:30.399 think after that there's a scene where he yes exactly 2844 02:33:30.440 --> 02:33:33.280 and when he is at a temple of Jupiter replacing 2845 02:33:33.280 --> 02:33:37.159 the statue heads with his, he is doing his weird 2846 02:33:37.280 --> 02:33:40.959 dance at the end of the scene, mocking long Ginas. 2847 02:33:41.120 --> 02:33:43.440 The whole film in the second half gets a more 2848 02:33:43.479 --> 02:33:49.079 satirical tone, which it felt was brilliantly done by Tinto, 2849 02:33:49.600 --> 02:33:54.639 because the film is very provocative and somehow also funny 2850 02:33:54.680 --> 02:33:57.040 in some bits and pieces and horrible in other bits 2851 02:33:57.040 --> 02:34:00.639 and pieces, meaning very violent and so on. Caligula does 2852 02:34:00.639 --> 02:34:03.239 this stance in the temple, and then he's raising money 2853 02:34:03.319 --> 02:34:05.920 for the war on Britain, and then all these people 2854 02:34:05.959 --> 02:34:08.719 walk around throw coins in this box and Calicula in 2855 02:34:08.799 --> 02:34:11.000 the little giant. They walk up the stairs and put 2856 02:34:11.000 --> 02:34:13.600 it in the treasury, and then Caligula jumps into the 2857 02:34:13.639 --> 02:34:17.040 coins in the treasury, and then we cut to the 2858 02:34:17.040 --> 02:34:20.559 scene where he's supposed to sacrifice a bull, and instead 2859 02:34:20.600 --> 02:34:23.280 he kills the priest, and then he goes to bisiness. 2860 02:34:23.319 --> 02:34:27.000 Treasury is now mine and then he looks Alongina saying, 2861 02:34:27.000 --> 02:34:30.920 and you want to raise taxes. There's this entire sequence 2862 02:34:30.920 --> 02:34:34.799 where he replaces the statues' heads, whereas Longinas talks about 2863 02:34:34.840 --> 02:34:37.079 taxes that could be increased to fund the war, and 2864 02:34:37.159 --> 02:34:40.719 Calicula says, if we increase a taxi to people won't 2865 02:34:40.799 --> 02:34:42.920 like it, so takes a treasure instead. 2866 02:34:43.760 --> 02:34:46.120 Yeah, that last bit with the bull and everything is 2867 02:34:46.159 --> 02:34:49.360 not there. The replacing of the heads is there now, 2868 02:34:49.479 --> 02:34:54.360 but not this the ball and the gold coins weird. 2869 02:34:54.399 --> 02:34:57.879 The replacing of the head, from my understanding, was so important. 2870 02:34:57.959 --> 02:35:01.239 Curricula says he's a god. Everyone along with it. He 2871 02:35:01.319 --> 02:35:04.000 takes the money from the treasury and so on. But 2872 02:35:04.079 --> 02:35:07.239 with all this kind of more satirical overtones and bits, 2873 02:35:07.520 --> 02:35:10.280 it's clear that he's not serious about it. He's trying 2874 02:35:10.280 --> 02:35:12.760 to provoke them. He's now taking the money from the 2875 02:35:12.879 --> 02:35:16.079 religious cult there and so on, And to me, that 2876 02:35:16.280 --> 02:35:20.280 was a key sequence. And then this leads to the 2877 02:35:20.879 --> 02:35:24.600 brothel ship scene, which starts so surreally with everybody standing 2878 02:35:24.639 --> 02:35:28.520 still and Caliicular walks onto it in short action. This 2879 02:35:28.760 --> 02:35:31.559 entire block of scenes to me was so important that 2880 02:35:31.559 --> 02:35:34.840 it was entirely missing from the theatrical cut, because I 2881 02:35:34.879 --> 02:35:38.600 believe the editors who were hired by Penthouse after Tinto 2882 02:35:38.719 --> 02:35:41.879 left in the seventies, they wanted to make the film 2883 02:35:41.920 --> 02:35:45.799 as serious as possible, and they got rid of everything 2884 02:35:45.840 --> 02:35:48.879 that could be perceived as satirical and so on. So 2885 02:35:48.959 --> 02:35:51.040 that was my impression I had back then. 2886 02:35:51.760 --> 02:35:54.719 I would say that this new version follows in that 2887 02:35:55.159 --> 02:35:59.799 more our tone, that it is not very funny at 2888 02:35:59.840 --> 02:36:02.959 all all. The music is pretty bombastic at times and 2889 02:36:03.680 --> 02:36:07.319 much more almost like a horror town at times. 2890 02:36:07.879 --> 02:36:11.520 I remember, in the relief theatrical cut, we have the 2891 02:36:11.639 --> 02:36:16.040 scene of the structure where Tiberius walks around his registructure 2892 02:36:16.159 --> 02:36:18.520 with all these people performing on various acts, as he 2893 02:36:18.600 --> 02:36:22.639 calls them living statues. In the theatrical cut there is 2894 02:36:22.879 --> 02:36:28.719 some very gloomy, eerie sounding soundtrack underneath this entire scene, 2895 02:36:28.879 --> 02:36:31.280 and it starts with this horrible thing where the soldier 2896 02:36:31.319 --> 02:36:33.639 is forced to drink the wine and he's killed after 2897 02:36:33.680 --> 02:36:37.040 Tiberius has returns and so on. And I realized when 2898 02:36:37.079 --> 02:36:39.559 I looked at what Tinto had done in his work print, 2899 02:36:39.600 --> 02:36:43.360 you saw shots of musicians with their instrument there. When 2900 02:36:43.360 --> 02:36:46.799 I reconstructed this work print, I realized would have been 2901 02:36:47.000 --> 02:36:51.559 in contrast to what we see, but so to say plausible, 2902 02:36:51.799 --> 02:36:54.399 Tiberius has the structure and his musicians to kind of 2903 02:36:54.719 --> 02:36:59.159 beat rhythmic Roman music. There while we observe all these things, 2904 02:37:00.000 --> 02:37:02.760 I watched it with Tinto, we discussed it. There is 2905 02:37:02.799 --> 02:37:07.040 also one sequence that was very important to me, when 2906 02:37:07.120 --> 02:37:10.959 Caligula arrives in the beginning the entire scene where Calcula 2907 02:37:11.040 --> 02:37:14.639 wakes up from his dream, and in the opening, we 2908 02:37:14.719 --> 02:37:17.360 have the still frame of his face very blurry, very 2909 02:37:17.399 --> 02:37:20.120 close up. It's a different take than the theatrical cut. 2910 02:37:20.639 --> 02:37:23.120 And then he's talking about his dream. The camera slowly 2911 02:37:23.159 --> 02:37:26.600 moves away, and then he arrives on Capri. We have 2912 02:37:26.719 --> 02:37:31.399 these slaves working on the rocks and Caligula gets carried up. 2913 02:37:31.959 --> 02:37:34.520 And that was a sequence that was missing in the 2914 02:37:34.600 --> 02:37:37.239 work print. It just wasn't there. The pieces for the 2915 02:37:37.399 --> 02:37:40.840 scene were gone, so I reconstructed that from scratch. I 2916 02:37:40.879 --> 02:37:43.280 did have quite a lot of digital raw footage for 2917 02:37:43.399 --> 02:37:46.079 that bit, and I discussed it with Tinto all so 2918 02:37:47.000 --> 02:37:50.639 basically we have what I came up with and what 2919 02:37:50.840 --> 02:37:54.920 Tinto seemed quite pleased about. Though obviously if you would 2920 02:37:54.920 --> 02:37:56.520 have been involved, he would have gone over it with 2921 02:37:56.600 --> 02:37:59.680 me again and he would have done it. Basically, Cliicular 2922 02:37:59.680 --> 02:38:03.159 walks down this corridor with Nerva. In the theatrical cut, 2923 02:38:03.200 --> 02:38:06.639 we hear some screams behind the curtain. But the way 2924 02:38:06.879 --> 02:38:10.600 that I reconstructed it, you actually see a lot of 2925 02:38:10.799 --> 02:38:15.319 scenes behind these curcles intercut very briefly. Some of them 2926 02:38:15.559 --> 02:38:18.479 are very violent looking. Some of them are so over 2927 02:38:18.520 --> 02:38:22.120 the top that they're just taking you out of the illusion, 2928 02:38:22.159 --> 02:38:24.920 which is part of what was supposed to be done. 2929 02:38:25.520 --> 02:38:28.959 And you have people running around behind there and getting 2930 02:38:28.959 --> 02:38:33.159 tortured and so on while Caligula walks up and talks 2931 02:38:33.159 --> 02:38:35.680 to Nerva. I wonder how was this done? If I 2932 02:38:35.719 --> 02:38:36.600 may ask. 2933 02:38:36.959 --> 02:38:41.280 Basically to get to create more of a pan across 2934 02:38:42.159 --> 02:38:45.319 a landscape, and then there's a statue in the foreground, 2935 02:38:45.440 --> 02:38:48.399 and then it's a dissolve into the hallway where we 2936 02:38:48.479 --> 02:38:52.719 see Caligula and Nerva coming up. I don't think that 2937 02:38:52.879 --> 02:38:55.719 you hear the sounds of the screams. 2938 02:38:56.239 --> 02:38:59.399 Oh, that was a very tinto shot. A lot of 2939 02:38:59.479 --> 02:39:03.639 raw footed there what happens behind the curtains. And I 2940 02:39:03.680 --> 02:39:06.600 didn't put it into Mission Cliicular largely because I wanted 2941 02:39:06.600 --> 02:39:09.319 to keep Mission Calcular PG. When I released it, on 2942 02:39:09.360 --> 02:39:12.840 YouTube and SOW. But also we did that episode. You 2943 02:39:12.920 --> 02:39:15.719 were so excited about Mission Calicular and you asked me 2944 02:39:16.319 --> 02:39:18.879 when it can be seen that I briefly afterwards put 2945 02:39:18.879 --> 02:39:21.040 it on Vimeo and YouTube with the permission of the 2946 02:39:21.120 --> 02:39:24.040 Right Soldiers. And I'm very happy that this is out 2947 02:39:24.120 --> 02:39:26.360 because I put a lot of moments from Sindo's work 2948 02:39:26.399 --> 02:39:29.879 print in there. So when I pieced back Tinto's work print, 2949 02:39:30.639 --> 02:39:33.440 as I said, it's a black and white sixty millimeter 2950 02:39:33.559 --> 02:39:35.879 copy that was transferred to video, and I had that 2951 02:39:36.000 --> 02:39:38.799 video copy. I made a digital copy of that when 2952 02:39:38.879 --> 02:39:42.559 Kelly Holland was around the company. Then there was also 2953 02:39:42.719 --> 02:39:46.559 a second work print on a very old video tape, 2954 02:39:47.000 --> 02:39:50.719 which was almost the final cuts of the film. But 2955 02:39:50.840 --> 02:39:53.360 there were some black and white shots, and by comparing 2956 02:39:53.399 --> 02:39:56.559 the splice marks, I realized that they're actually also from 2957 02:39:56.600 --> 02:39:59.360 Tinto's work print. So I had to piece back the 2958 02:39:59.360 --> 02:40:03.079 black and white w and I believe in the workprint 2959 02:40:03.120 --> 02:40:06.959 the first shot from Capri is there where actually we 2960 02:40:07.000 --> 02:40:09.440 see the slaves working with the rocks and so on. 2961 02:40:09.479 --> 02:40:11.760 So that was certainly a shot that Tinto wanted in it. 2962 02:40:12.520 --> 02:40:15.719 When you think of the workprint beginning, is there Caligula 2963 02:40:15.799 --> 02:40:19.360 waking up and so on. Then when Macro comes in 2964 02:40:19.399 --> 02:40:23.600 and talks to him, there are gaps. Basically, the workprint 2965 02:40:23.600 --> 02:40:27.280 got taken apart after Tinto was dismissed, and I believe 2966 02:40:27.280 --> 02:40:30.520 it was put back into the raw footage and they 2967 02:40:30.559 --> 02:40:32.559 started to do it, and then someone had the idea, 2968 02:40:32.680 --> 02:40:35.840 let's make a backup copy. So some shots were already 2969 02:40:35.840 --> 02:40:38.399 put back into the raw footage, So some shots are missing. 2970 02:40:39.159 --> 02:40:41.559 So we have a few bits and pieces of arriving 2971 02:40:41.600 --> 02:40:44.840 on carpri and on the corridor. Once you have Tiberius 2972 02:40:44.840 --> 02:40:48.680 as pool, the work print is largely complete, and it 2973 02:40:48.719 --> 02:40:51.600 had a very good flow to it. Some bits and 2974 02:40:51.760 --> 02:40:57.520 pieces might have to be just streamlined a little bit. 2975 02:40:57.840 --> 02:41:00.120 Someone in some angle moving an arm, and in the 2976 02:41:00.120 --> 02:41:03.840 other angle the movement is starting anew. These were things 2977 02:41:03.840 --> 02:41:05.440 that Tinto would have done when he went over the 2978 02:41:05.479 --> 02:41:08.280 workprint again. And then when we go to the scene 2979 02:41:08.280 --> 02:41:11.120 where Proculus is on the machine, on the killing machine, 2980 02:41:11.120 --> 02:41:14.200 when Macro is killed, it's clear that this was a 2981 02:41:14.280 --> 02:41:17.639 sequence that Tinto was in the midst of editing when 2982 02:41:17.680 --> 02:41:21.079 he had to believe basically, when he was dismissed from 2983 02:41:21.079 --> 02:41:25.280 the editing, because that sequence was largely unfinished. There were 2984 02:41:25.680 --> 02:41:28.399 the same action repeated from a few shots, so it 2985 02:41:28.479 --> 02:41:31.840 was clear that Tinto, since the midst of editing, had 2986 02:41:31.879 --> 02:41:35.440 already gathered the material but couldn't find finish it. So 2987 02:41:35.479 --> 02:41:39.000 when I did my reconstruction, I reconstructed that scene as 2988 02:41:39.079 --> 02:41:41.920 much as possible from the work print footage of Tinto, 2989 02:41:42.040 --> 02:41:46.120 and from that scene on. The rest was done by 2990 02:41:46.159 --> 02:41:49.520 me in a style that I felt works without access 2991 02:41:49.559 --> 02:41:52.040 to much raw footage, just as a kind of demonstration. 2992 02:41:52.799 --> 02:41:55.479 Do you feel that Caligula was mad or that he 2993 02:41:55.760 --> 02:41:59.920 was just screwing around with people and just pushing it 2994 02:42:00.000 --> 02:42:02.360 as far as he could, just see how far power 2995 02:42:02.440 --> 02:42:02.799 can go. 2996 02:42:03.520 --> 02:42:06.079 I believe it's actually one of the topics of the 2997 02:42:06.120 --> 02:42:09.959 film that it's open to interpretation because he's doing a 2998 02:42:09.959 --> 02:42:12.440 lot of very horrible acts. He could say no sane 2999 02:42:12.520 --> 02:42:17.280 person would do it. At the same time, I'm not 3000 02:42:17.319 --> 02:42:22.399 an expert on any of those mental conditions, if it's pychopathic, sociopathic, 3001 02:42:22.479 --> 02:42:24.319 or whatever. But I feel in the first half of 3002 02:42:24.360 --> 02:42:27.760 the film he gets absorbed in all the power he has, 3003 02:42:27.879 --> 02:42:31.959 and the horrible rape scene with Proculus and Livia, I 3004 02:42:31.959 --> 02:42:35.559 feel is a combination because he just does it and 3005 02:42:35.600 --> 02:42:38.520 no one dares to interfere. And I feel the film 3006 02:42:38.600 --> 02:42:41.159 is not so much about Calicular himself. It's more about 3007 02:42:41.200 --> 02:42:45.079 the structure of power. And I find it interesting he 3008 02:42:45.159 --> 02:42:49.879 walks into the wedding, he rapes both the bright and 3009 02:42:49.959 --> 02:42:54.360 the groom, and nobody including them, try to resist or 3010 02:42:54.399 --> 02:42:56.959 fight back, even though it's obvious that a lot of 3011 02:42:57.000 --> 02:43:00.440 people are very uncomfortable, and that's just the structure of power. 3012 02:43:00.600 --> 02:43:03.040 People know he can't do this, he is allowed to 3013 02:43:03.040 --> 02:43:07.600 do this, and as I see the film, until his illness, 3014 02:43:08.559 --> 02:43:12.000 he might not be insane that he's certainly a very 3015 02:43:12.000 --> 02:43:15.040 cruel person without empathy. If this is my interpretation, I'm 3016 02:43:15.040 --> 02:43:18.000 not talking about what Tinto wanted. And he gets swept 3017 02:43:18.079 --> 02:43:21.760 up in this power and all these acts that he 3018 02:43:21.799 --> 02:43:26.879 can do, and then she realizes how everybody just does 3019 02:43:26.920 --> 02:43:29.239 everything he does, and I feel the second half is 3020 02:43:29.399 --> 02:43:34.959 pretty anarchist, pretty provocative. He tries to disassemble this whole system. 3021 02:43:35.000 --> 02:43:39.680 He tries to get more and more outrageous. There's one scene, well, 3022 02:43:39.680 --> 02:43:41.559 he says, I don't know what else I can do 3023 02:43:41.600 --> 02:43:47.879 to provoke them at which is very important in the 3024 02:43:48.000 --> 02:43:53.440 Caesar says, then I think, as these are senators. Well, 3025 02:43:53.520 --> 02:43:55.760 if there's important, why do they allow me to do 3026 02:43:55.799 --> 02:43:58.200 all the things? I don't know how to provoke them? 3027 02:43:58.399 --> 02:44:02.200 And I felt the ending of the film. I've often 3028 02:44:02.280 --> 02:44:05.479 thought about it. We have this system that we see 3029 02:44:05.959 --> 02:44:09.159 that's apparently pretty broken because Curricular can do a lot 3030 02:44:09.200 --> 02:44:12.440 of cruel acts and nobody stops him, and the people 3031 02:44:12.479 --> 02:44:15.600 were supposed to act in the interests of the people 3032 02:44:15.760 --> 02:44:17.920 act in their own interest. The senators and so on. 3033 02:44:18.000 --> 02:44:21.040 They just do anything Clicular does to be safe. And 3034 02:44:21.200 --> 02:44:24.040 instead of changing that system, they get rid of him 3035 02:44:24.079 --> 02:44:27.479 and appoint Claudius, who in real life apparently was quite 3036 02:44:27.520 --> 02:44:30.079 different that in the film. He's portrayed as someone with 3037 02:44:30.200 --> 02:44:34.200 some mental deficits, and they appoint him to have another figurehead. 3038 02:44:34.600 --> 02:44:38.280 So the whole system stays. So I had the feeling 3039 02:44:38.280 --> 02:44:41.120 that Curricular that's not only a feeling. Tint To himself 3040 02:44:41.120 --> 02:44:44.520 said it. Clicular is a very political film. I find 3041 02:44:44.559 --> 02:44:47.360 it narratively quite well done, the film that Tinto wanted 3042 02:44:47.479 --> 02:44:51.680 to do. Basically, it starts and we always have hits 3043 02:44:51.719 --> 02:44:53.760 that are a bit weird. He has this affair with 3044 02:44:53.840 --> 02:44:57.000 his sister, but in the beginning he's a scared young man. 3045 02:44:57.040 --> 02:45:00.200 But again there is something a little bit of or 3046 02:45:00.239 --> 02:45:03.959 to say narratively, And when we see Tiberius, he tries 3047 02:45:04.000 --> 02:45:06.479 to behave the best he can and he's scared, So 3048 02:45:06.840 --> 02:45:08.760 in the beginning I would say there is an element 3049 02:45:08.799 --> 02:45:14.360 of sympathy. Then when Nerva commits suicide, Calicular is curious, 3050 02:45:14.399 --> 02:45:16.479 but at the end he gets this aggressive fit where 3051 02:45:16.479 --> 02:45:19.719 he pushes Nerva under Liar, where he shows Liar with 3052 02:45:20.479 --> 02:45:24.040 I feel is showing a kind of more cruel side 3053 02:45:24.079 --> 02:45:27.479 to him. I feel the further we go, the more 3054 02:45:27.559 --> 02:45:33.479 hints we get. And when Tiberius is supposedly dead and 3055 02:45:33.760 --> 02:45:37.399 Calicular stands there with the mirror and Fiberius wakes up again, 3056 02:45:38.159 --> 02:45:41.360 it's an interesting scene. We feel that Calicula wants to strike, 3057 02:45:41.440 --> 02:45:44.920 but somehow he can, And when Macro arrives, we get 3058 02:45:44.920 --> 02:45:48.639 an impression again that he's more a likable guy who 3059 02:45:48.719 --> 02:45:51.799 can't bring himself to kill Tiberias. And I found it 3060 02:45:51.840 --> 02:45:53.719 interesting in the first half a lot of the things 3061 02:45:53.760 --> 02:45:56.040 he does when he has Macro arrested, even though he 3062 02:45:56.079 --> 02:46:00.319 has Jamelis arrested, it could be in the frame work 3063 02:46:00.360 --> 02:46:05.360 of that cruel world there be justified because to him 3064 02:46:05.399 --> 02:46:09.079 it's killed or be killed in this society that's depicted 3065 02:46:09.120 --> 02:46:12.280 in the film. Macro had Siberia's killed, maybe Macro will 3066 02:46:12.319 --> 02:46:15.799 kill Calicular if Curricular doesn't go the way he likes 3067 02:46:16.280 --> 02:46:19.079 with Jamelus in his view, removing a threat to his 3068 02:46:19.200 --> 02:46:22.520 legitimacy and so on, and talking about the film not 3069 02:46:22.559 --> 02:46:24.879 about real life. My ethics and real life are different. 3070 02:46:25.040 --> 02:46:29.120 In the film, it might appear from the character's perspective 3071 02:46:30.040 --> 02:46:33.559 more justified. Then he does these things like the rape. 3072 02:46:33.600 --> 02:46:35.959 I feel the rape. That's a real culmination to me. 3073 02:46:36.040 --> 02:46:38.399 It's a fever dream of power, and it goes to 3074 02:46:38.440 --> 02:46:41.159 his head and he just becomes cruel to people just 3075 02:46:41.200 --> 02:46:41.920 because he can. 3076 02:46:42.840 --> 02:46:43.200 I feel. 3077 02:46:43.200 --> 02:46:46.840 The fever in itself is not as important as the 3078 02:46:46.920 --> 02:46:49.520 sequence where he then walks through the streets of Rome, 3079 02:46:49.719 --> 02:46:52.520 which is actually one of my favorite scenes, although Tintom 3080 02:46:52.559 --> 02:46:55.319 Denver got to edit it. But that scene where he 3081 02:46:55.360 --> 02:46:57.399 walks through the streets of Rome for the first time 3082 02:46:57.440 --> 02:47:00.680 he actually sees the people of Rome. It's first encounter 3083 02:47:00.719 --> 02:47:03.840 with the actual people. And though I interpret it, he 3084 02:47:04.000 --> 02:47:07.000 realizes that all these senators around him, they don't act 3085 02:47:07.040 --> 02:47:10.079 in the interest of these people there. It's a separate world. 3086 02:47:10.360 --> 02:47:13.040 They just like to stay in power. So he does 3087 02:47:13.120 --> 02:47:16.239 one outrageous thing after the other to provoke them and 3088 02:47:16.280 --> 02:47:21.040 to shake up this entire structure. And so i'll talk 3089 02:47:21.079 --> 02:47:24.760 about mad or not. I think it's a provocative political film. 3090 02:47:24.959 --> 02:47:27.680 That's what it is, and the main character is serving 3091 02:47:27.719 --> 02:47:31.959 that provocative political message. Basically in the end, she does 3092 02:47:32.000 --> 02:47:34.040 all he can to provoke these senators and so on, 3093 02:47:34.760 --> 02:47:36.920 she acts mad in front of them, but they don't 3094 02:47:37.000 --> 02:47:40.879 dare to dispose of him, tell him no or so. 3095 02:47:41.559 --> 02:47:43.879 Instead they just have him killed and replaced by someone 3096 02:47:44.120 --> 02:47:46.440 they are not brave enough to confront someone. 3097 02:47:47.000 --> 02:47:51.760 That's something I hate to be the very bad news again. Possibly, 3098 02:47:51.840 --> 02:47:57.680 but the sequence when merv kills himself in the ultimate cut, 3099 02:47:57.760 --> 02:48:02.520 there is no shot of Caligula pushing him under. So 3100 02:48:02.879 --> 02:48:08.479 there's an odd sequence where, nervous in the pool, he 3101 02:48:08.799 --> 02:48:12.239 has given more of the talk that you've talked about, 3102 02:48:12.360 --> 02:48:15.360 as far as it's not that sequence that we see 3103 02:48:15.399 --> 02:48:18.600 in the finished film. It is much more of him 3104 02:48:18.639 --> 02:48:22.879 calling out Tiberius. But Tiberius does put his hand forward, 3105 02:48:22.959 --> 02:48:27.120 his fist forward, and I think that what's missing is 3106 02:48:28.159 --> 02:48:31.159 maybe Nerva kissing the ring, because it looks like he's 3107 02:48:31.200 --> 02:48:34.120 holding out his fist for Nerva to do that, but 3108 02:48:34.239 --> 02:48:37.680 you just get a close up of Peter O'Toole's face 3109 02:48:37.959 --> 02:48:44.120 looking at Malcolm McDowell, and then eventually they stop, takes 3110 02:48:44.159 --> 02:48:47.120 back his hand. You don't see what happened to his hand, 3111 02:48:47.280 --> 02:48:52.159 and then they walk off, leaving Nerva in that bloody pool, 3112 02:48:52.719 --> 02:48:54.799 and then the scene fades out, so there is no 3113 02:48:54.920 --> 02:48:55.520 more to that. 3114 02:48:56.440 --> 02:49:00.479 With the ring. I recall he holds out the hand, 3115 02:49:00.520 --> 02:49:03.680 and in Tinto's work printed was done in this beautiful 3116 02:49:03.959 --> 02:49:06.959 pan where you pan across the arm and so on, 3117 02:49:07.559 --> 02:49:10.239 But I remember that Nerva doesn't kiss the ring there. 3118 02:49:10.760 --> 02:49:13.520 But then I felt it was a moving moment where 3119 02:49:13.520 --> 02:49:18.120 Peter O'Toole character, where Tiberius leaves and Calicular stays by himself. 3120 02:49:18.159 --> 02:49:20.879 I felt there was an incredible sadness in Tiberius in 3121 02:49:20.920 --> 02:49:24.440 that sequence. I guess one of the major differences in 3122 02:49:24.479 --> 02:49:30.360 the released theatrical cut versus what Tinto intended was it 3123 02:49:30.399 --> 02:49:33.040 in the initial scenes where we meet Tiberius with the 3124 02:49:33.079 --> 02:49:36.079 pool and with this reddish structure, he's supposed to be 3125 02:49:36.159 --> 02:49:39.559 drunk and you see him drinking repeatedly, which was the 3126 02:49:39.600 --> 02:49:42.520 emphasize in the editing back then. So I feel when 3127 02:49:42.959 --> 02:49:48.639 Nerva commits suicide. Tiberius is not drunk, he's sober, and 3128 02:49:48.719 --> 02:49:51.399 we see a much more contemplative side of him, and 3129 02:49:51.760 --> 02:49:55.040 it moves in that his friend has killed himself. Well, 3130 02:49:55.040 --> 02:49:59.239 I find it important afterwards when Calicular gets to Nerva 3131 02:49:59.399 --> 02:50:02.920 and asks about isis and so on many gets mad. 3132 02:50:02.959 --> 02:50:06.200 I felt that's a very important moment for the character development. 3133 02:50:07.040 --> 02:50:09.920 I just wonder why so much as missing? Why is this? 3134 02:50:11.200 --> 02:50:13.920 I'm partial here, of course I want Tinto's version to 3135 02:50:13.920 --> 02:50:15.840 be out, But why is this called the ultimate cut 3136 02:50:15.879 --> 02:50:17.360 if it doesn't include all the scenes? 3137 02:50:19.000 --> 02:50:22.479 That's a very good question. It is almost three hours long, 3138 02:50:22.760 --> 02:50:24.959 and you really feel how long this is. 3139 02:50:25.760 --> 02:50:29.520 When I discovered the work print, I reconstructed a workprint 3140 02:50:29.520 --> 02:50:31.600 which is the first half. Then I put the second 3141 02:50:31.639 --> 02:50:34.639 half together from the footaget that was available, and that 3142 02:50:34.760 --> 02:50:37.719 version was around one hundred and sixty eight minutes long. 3143 02:50:38.280 --> 02:50:41.159 So it is shorter, but it includes more scenes. Apparently 3144 02:50:42.000 --> 02:50:46.040 is passively with windows editing style, likely because he intercuts 3145 02:50:46.120 --> 02:50:48.399 things and they are edited in a very quick way. 3146 02:50:49.159 --> 02:50:51.200 I would say every listener who listens to this, they 3147 02:50:51.200 --> 02:50:54.840 should watch Salon Kitty, not for the content, just for 3148 02:50:54.879 --> 02:50:58.920 the editing style. And I feel from Varsalon Kitty, also 3149 02:50:58.959 --> 02:51:02.719 from mirosu Bianc, another Tinto film, or from Cocoa Gola. 3150 02:51:03.040 --> 02:51:06.239 If you just disregard to storyline, if you just follow 3151 02:51:06.360 --> 02:51:09.120 how is it edited? You can see how quickly a 3152 02:51:09.120 --> 02:51:11.600 lot of things are done, at how one scene intercuts 3153 02:51:11.600 --> 02:51:15.319 to the next. Because honestly, if you didn't know about this, 3154 02:51:16.040 --> 02:51:21.040 so this cut is longer than the preliminary reconstruction I had, 3155 02:51:21.079 --> 02:51:24.079 but includes less scenes, it's just interesting, let's put it 3156 02:51:24.079 --> 02:51:24.440 that way. 3157 02:51:25.239 --> 02:51:28.120 So obviously, I know that you don't want to stirrup 3158 02:51:28.120 --> 02:51:33.040 any hornets nests, you don't want to upset anybody with this, 3159 02:51:33.159 --> 02:51:35.920 and I know that you've tried to distance yourself from 3160 02:51:35.959 --> 02:51:38.239 this new ultimate cut just because it is such a 3161 02:51:38.280 --> 02:51:41.760 heartache for you. But I was curious if I read 3162 02:51:41.799 --> 02:51:45.440 any quotes about this project, would you be up for 3163 02:51:45.680 --> 02:51:49.319 possibly giving me your first impressions as to the validity 3164 02:51:49.440 --> 02:51:54.319 or possible not validity of these depends on the quote? 3165 02:51:54.959 --> 02:51:58.799 All right, sounds good. There has been discussion about who 3166 02:51:58.959 --> 02:52:04.040 actually discuss the footage. There was one article that says 3167 02:52:04.120 --> 02:52:08.000 that the producer of this new version is the one 3168 02:52:08.040 --> 02:52:11.520 that found the treasure trove of material that doesn't sound 3169 02:52:11.559 --> 02:52:13.200 like Mischion caligular whatsoever. 3170 02:52:13.879 --> 02:52:18.280 This is quite an interesting quote. I would say, to 3171 02:52:18.319 --> 02:52:22.959 give benefit of the doubt, it's hopefully a misunderstanding. And 3172 02:52:23.000 --> 02:52:26.959 because the footage was put away in the early eighties, 3173 02:52:27.000 --> 02:52:31.319 I believe it was occasionally accessed again, at least in parts, 3174 02:52:31.360 --> 02:52:34.520 also for the Imperial Edition in two thousand and seven. 3175 02:52:35.079 --> 02:52:39.559 But when I went to see Kelly Holland in twenty 3176 02:52:39.639 --> 02:52:42.360 sixteen a penthouse, no one had done any idea where 3177 02:52:42.399 --> 02:52:44.959 this footage was, and as I said, I had to 3178 02:52:44.959 --> 02:52:47.360 pull some strings to figure out and so on. It 3179 02:52:47.440 --> 02:52:51.079 was quite adventurous to finally find this archive. And according 3180 02:52:51.079 --> 02:52:53.520 to Kelly Holland, the footage was about to be destroyed 3181 02:52:53.600 --> 02:52:57.319 because apparently it was forgotten about and not paid for 3182 02:52:57.360 --> 02:52:59.760 a long time. That's what she says in Mission calicular. 3183 02:53:00.000 --> 02:53:01.840 I don't know the exact quote, but you can watch 3184 02:53:01.879 --> 02:53:06.000 it in the documentary. So essentially the footage was all there, 3185 02:53:06.440 --> 02:53:11.040 and they say when this new project happened, the company 3186 02:53:11.079 --> 02:53:14.399 knew where the footage was because I had told Kelly 3187 02:53:14.399 --> 02:53:16.600 Holland and so on. It was not a secret. So 3188 02:53:16.840 --> 02:53:19.520 I wouldn't go so far to say I discovered the footage. 3189 02:53:19.520 --> 02:53:23.239 I rediscovered it after many years in twenty sixteen, let's 3190 02:53:23.239 --> 02:53:26.360 put it that way. And back then it moved me 3191 02:53:26.520 --> 02:53:29.319 very much when Kelly Holland told me that if I 3192 02:53:29.360 --> 02:53:31.440 hadn't come in at that time, the footage would have 3193 02:53:31.440 --> 02:53:34.760 been destroyed likely and that might make me feel, oh, 3194 02:53:34.879 --> 02:53:37.239 right place, right time. Everything is in a flow, and 3195 02:53:37.319 --> 02:53:39.239 here's the work for now, we get Tinto involved in. 3196 02:53:39.280 --> 02:53:42.559 Tinto is still around, he can still do his cuts, 3197 02:53:42.840 --> 02:53:45.079 and basically the people who are doing this new cut, 3198 02:53:45.760 --> 02:53:48.120 but hadn't even heard of them until two years after 3199 02:53:48.159 --> 02:53:49.319 discovering the footage. 3200 02:53:49.840 --> 02:53:53.879 Yeah, I've been trying my best to find the pedigree. Obviously, 3201 02:53:53.920 --> 02:53:57.799 you've put in decades of work on this project before 3202 02:53:58.120 --> 02:54:01.559 you even had the chance to really dive in and 3203 02:54:01.760 --> 02:54:05.319 complete it. But yeah, I'm just trying to find how 3204 02:54:05.440 --> 02:54:09.200 the project got put in the hands of someone that 3205 02:54:09.440 --> 02:54:13.000 I could not find any sort of restoration background or 3206 02:54:13.040 --> 02:54:13.799 history at all. 3207 02:54:14.600 --> 02:54:18.360 I have no ideas, to be honest, This new project 3208 02:54:18.959 --> 02:54:21.760 appeared out of the blue for me as well. And 3209 02:54:22.760 --> 02:54:25.639 again I don't want to go into much detail, but 3210 02:54:25.799 --> 02:54:30.959 initially I had assumed these are people who are supposed 3211 02:54:30.959 --> 02:54:34.440 to assist in my restoration or something like that, until 3212 02:54:34.440 --> 02:54:39.319 I found out that basically, yeah, this is what it 3213 02:54:39.360 --> 02:54:40.479 is now. 3214 02:54:40.520 --> 02:54:43.959 I had also read that Nathaniel Thompson knew where this 3215 02:54:44.040 --> 02:54:47.920 footage was and was able to provide that information to Penthouse. Finally, 3216 02:54:48.000 --> 02:54:48.559 is that true? 3217 02:54:49.360 --> 02:54:51.959 She was the one I contacted when Penthouse said there 3218 02:54:52.040 --> 02:54:55.120 is no footage and so on, and he had worked 3219 02:54:55.159 --> 02:54:57.959 on the Imperial Edition, and I get along with sim 3220 02:54:58.040 --> 02:54:59.959 very well. I remember the first time I went to 3221 02:55:00.639 --> 02:55:03.760 in twenty eleven, I met with him. He was one 3222 02:55:03.799 --> 02:55:05.879 of the people I really admired for his work on 3223 02:55:05.920 --> 02:55:08.479 the Imperial Edition. He had very little time back then 3224 02:55:08.520 --> 02:55:11.159 when doing it, so he couldn't put more together. And 3225 02:55:11.200 --> 02:55:13.719 so I contacted him and asked, oh, do you know 3226 02:55:13.760 --> 02:55:16.559 where the footage was and so on, and then he 3227 02:55:16.600 --> 02:55:19.760 had some memorisons. All that led to the rediscovery of 3228 02:55:19.799 --> 02:55:23.360 the footage, which is why I'm also saying I helped 3229 02:55:23.360 --> 02:55:26.040 to rediscover it sort of Penthouse where it was. 3230 02:55:26.680 --> 02:55:29.719 We were talking about that Capri scene and one quote 3231 02:55:29.719 --> 02:55:33.079 I read about that, because there are some digital effects 3232 02:55:33.159 --> 02:55:35.000 in this new version as well. I'm not sure if 3233 02:55:35.000 --> 02:55:38.120 you're aware of that, but the producer of this new 3234 02:55:38.239 --> 02:55:44.479 version was talking about how he replaced or extended backgrounds 3235 02:55:44.600 --> 02:55:49.120 in this new version, and he said, quote, it's respectful 3236 02:55:49.159 --> 02:55:51.280 of the performers and the audience is to take the 3237 02:55:51.319 --> 02:55:53.440 parts that look like a high school play and make 3238 02:55:53.520 --> 02:55:56.280 it match the parts of the set that were completed 3239 02:55:56.399 --> 02:55:59.719 as the Nati envisioned. For the transition to Capri, we 3240 02:55:59.799 --> 02:56:02.879 drew the shoreline has a look from the real Tiberius's villa. 3241 02:56:03.399 --> 02:56:06.760 In other scenes, Donati painted elaborate backdrops and would never 3242 02:56:06.840 --> 02:56:09.760 have just hung a pink curtain to represent the landscape. 3243 02:56:10.000 --> 02:56:12.639 So we're keeping in line with both the rest of 3244 02:56:12.680 --> 02:56:15.600 this film but also the set designs he'd made for 3245 02:56:15.680 --> 02:56:18.920 other films. I'm a fan of Danillo Donati and wanted 3246 02:56:18.959 --> 02:56:21.600 the audience to see what he intended for them to see. 3247 02:56:22.559 --> 02:56:25.719 This is actually a very puzzling quote to me when 3248 02:56:25.760 --> 02:56:27.639 I think of it. Donati did the set design for 3249 02:56:27.639 --> 02:56:32.399 Felini's Casanova a little bit prior, and that film has 3250 02:56:32.479 --> 02:56:35.120 some more abstract scenes in it. I remember a scene 3251 02:56:35.159 --> 02:56:39.319 where Casanova is on a boat and the seed is 3252 02:56:39.360 --> 02:56:42.239 made of plastic sheets that are moving. To me, this 3253 02:56:42.319 --> 02:56:44.680 sounds as if you take Felini's Casanova and replace the 3254 02:56:44.680 --> 02:56:48.479 plastic sheets with cgi water of the sea and the 3255 02:56:48.520 --> 02:56:52.120 scene with the backdrop. We're really talking about a matter 3256 02:56:52.159 --> 02:56:55.520 of taste here. Some people would prefer a photorealistic island, 3257 02:56:56.280 --> 02:57:01.159 some people prefer a more theatrical staging. The film was 3258 02:57:01.159 --> 02:57:03.120 shot with the sets the way they are, so I 3259 02:57:03.159 --> 02:57:06.000 think they should stay the way they are. And if 3260 02:57:06.000 --> 02:57:08.639 they hardly were alive and we could ask him, that 3261 02:57:08.840 --> 02:57:12.079 might be a different story. But here I really don't 3262 02:57:12.079 --> 02:57:14.520 see the point in this. And again, why is it 3263 02:57:14.559 --> 02:57:17.440 called the ultimate cut? If you change the footage, if 3264 02:57:17.440 --> 02:57:21.399 you remove some These are not angry questions. These is 3265 02:57:21.479 --> 02:57:25.639 genuine curiosity. Why do you change things instead of trying 3266 02:57:25.680 --> 02:57:28.479 to make it the way they were intended to. I'm 3267 02:57:28.479 --> 02:57:31.879 a historian as well as a filmmaker. I have two degrees, 3268 02:57:32.239 --> 02:57:34.520 a Bachelor in Audiovisual Media and a Bachelor of Master 3269 02:57:34.559 --> 02:57:39.159 in history. And with Calicula, I felt I want to 3270 02:57:39.200 --> 02:57:43.479 preserve what was shot, and I think I know which 3271 02:57:43.479 --> 02:57:46.959 scene he means with the backdrop with this white cloth, 3272 02:57:47.040 --> 02:57:49.920 which I felt was a brilliant scene because it shows 3273 02:57:49.920 --> 02:57:53.799 this morning mood and it looks like a theater stage play. 3274 02:57:54.600 --> 02:57:57.680 I know with the Capri scene in the film Yoca Lego, 3275 02:57:57.760 --> 02:58:00.680 Lie In the Italian edition they put a shot of 3276 02:58:00.799 --> 02:58:04.239 the Isle of Capri for the transition, But the way 3277 02:58:04.280 --> 02:58:06.760 that Tinto could have done it wouldn't have involved any 3278 02:58:06.799 --> 02:58:10.040 look at the island of Capri. It would have been impressionist. 3279 02:58:10.040 --> 02:58:14.799 It starts with Caligula being carried up the slope, so 3280 02:58:15.120 --> 02:58:18.799 to be quite honest to me personally, doing any digital 3281 02:58:19.879 --> 02:58:22.399 trickery with the footage, except for cleaning it up, would 3282 02:58:22.399 --> 02:58:24.920 be a big no go. Tinto did the film with 3283 02:58:25.000 --> 02:58:29.200 a certain vision in mind. Basically what was filmed. Tinto 3284 02:58:29.280 --> 02:58:33.239 made it work, and the Capri scene works. I just 3285 02:58:33.360 --> 02:58:36.159 watched a few days ago, just for my reference, the 3286 02:58:36.399 --> 02:58:39.879 beginning of the work print again and it works well. 3287 02:58:40.440 --> 02:58:43.159 Macro talks about going to Capri, we cut to Caligula 3288 02:58:43.239 --> 02:58:46.319 being carried up there. It's very clear where it is. 3289 02:58:46.440 --> 02:58:49.360 We don't need an establishing shot of the island, and 3290 02:58:49.600 --> 02:58:53.040 I feel this is the special thing about the film. Clicular, 3291 02:58:53.120 --> 02:58:58.479 a lot of it looks quite artificial, quite stagy. And 3292 02:58:58.520 --> 02:59:00.399 then there is a scene where he walked through the 3293 02:59:00.479 --> 02:59:05.000 scenes of Rome which were filmed in a thermi carame 3294 02:59:05.159 --> 02:59:07.719 is the German word thermi in Rome in the ruins, 3295 02:59:08.399 --> 02:59:10.879 and that looks very real. Again, we suddenly have this 3296 02:59:10.959 --> 02:59:14.799 dirty surroundings. So I felt in Caligula he's getting from 3297 02:59:14.840 --> 02:59:18.559 the more artificial looking surroundings into the real world in 3298 02:59:18.600 --> 02:59:21.760 that scene suddenly, and it all makes sense. 3299 02:59:22.479 --> 02:59:25.760 It's not like the movie was taken away from Tinto 3300 02:59:26.159 --> 02:59:29.440 during the art direction phase or the set direction phase. 3301 02:59:29.479 --> 02:59:31.520 It was during the editing phase. So it feels like 3302 02:59:31.559 --> 02:59:34.719 that would be where you want to concentrate your efforts. 3303 02:59:35.280 --> 02:59:38.280 When you think of Tinto's working style, he was great 3304 02:59:38.280 --> 02:59:41.479 with improvisation, which is why I like his style so much. 3305 02:59:42.079 --> 02:59:44.319 When he watched called Couring Gola deadly sweet, He's just 3306 02:59:44.399 --> 02:59:46.760 in London capturing things, and a lot of it was 3307 02:59:46.840 --> 02:59:49.719 just what spur of the moment, spontaneous and with the 3308 02:59:49.760 --> 02:59:53.799 set design of Caliguia, no matter what happened there or 3309 02:59:54.000 --> 02:59:56.159 let's say, if a set should it be more complete 3310 02:59:56.239 --> 02:59:58.120 or not, I don't even know about this. I was 3311 02:59:58.200 --> 03:00:01.360 more concerned with how the film was actually shot. Tinto 3312 03:00:01.920 --> 03:00:05.280 shot the film the way he felt works, and if 3313 03:00:05.319 --> 03:00:07.879 something in the set didn't work for whatever reason, Tinta 3314 03:00:07.920 --> 03:00:10.760 would have put around it. So I feel it must 3315 03:00:10.799 --> 03:00:13.719 be respected the film that was shot. And I think 3316 03:00:13.719 --> 03:00:15.680 if you just put the film together the way it 3317 03:00:15.799 --> 03:00:18.440 was intended by the director, which is not simple. But 3318 03:00:18.559 --> 03:00:21.399 if you do this, it starts all making sense and 3319 03:00:21.479 --> 03:00:25.200 you don't have to add anything in cgi the idea 3320 03:00:25.239 --> 03:00:27.559 never occurred to me to add any element. 3321 03:00:28.399 --> 03:00:32.920 Yeah, even when you're on Capri and you're in Tiberius's area, 3322 03:00:33.239 --> 03:00:36.959 there's that shot of the whole presenium almost and it 3323 03:00:37.000 --> 03:00:40.600 does feel very much like what it is, which is 3324 03:00:40.600 --> 03:00:43.319 in a very elaborate sound stage. 3325 03:00:44.079 --> 03:00:46.120 And basically that's what I mean. A lot of the 3326 03:00:46.200 --> 03:00:49.760 film is done also in parts almost like a theater 3327 03:00:49.920 --> 03:00:54.479 play with more stylized thing. What I find interesting when 3328 03:00:54.520 --> 03:00:57.719 Caliicula is on the balcony of the Imperial Palace and 3329 03:00:57.760 --> 03:00:59.680 there are a few scenes where he's on that balcony, 3330 03:00:59.799 --> 03:01:04.559 the backdrop is clearly painted. Parts of the film actually 3331 03:01:05.040 --> 03:01:08.079 remind me of a play, of a more experimental play. 3332 03:01:08.159 --> 03:01:11.959 Other parts are very filmmaking. Really, it all makes sense 3333 03:01:12.000 --> 03:01:13.799 and it starts the flow if you put it together. 3334 03:01:14.600 --> 03:01:17.479 That really checks out, especially when you think of Sizanna 3335 03:01:17.760 --> 03:01:21.879 giving birth basically on stage, and she is a centerpiece 3336 03:01:21.959 --> 03:01:25.639 of that whole stage production of the birth of Caligula's daughter. 3337 03:01:26.479 --> 03:01:29.719 Yes, and that felt let's say I feel that when 3338 03:01:29.760 --> 03:01:33.399 you watch Felini's Casanova, you have this very artificial look 3339 03:01:33.479 --> 03:01:35.959 to many sets. It doesn't look like the real world, 3340 03:01:36.760 --> 03:01:40.120 and I feel that we would have similar effect in Caligula. 3341 03:01:40.200 --> 03:01:44.520 A lot of it is more stylized, more abstract. I 3342 03:01:44.559 --> 03:01:47.920 was always very interested in Bresch's theory about theater and 3343 03:01:48.079 --> 03:01:52.040 getting some detachment by making things deliberately take you out 3344 03:01:52.120 --> 03:01:56.120 of the illusion of reality and so on. So when 3345 03:01:56.159 --> 03:01:59.200 you edit the film the way the director intended to, 3346 03:01:59.479 --> 03:02:02.559 it becomes quite a complex piece of art that would 3347 03:02:02.559 --> 03:02:03.719 be discussed very differently. 3348 03:02:04.440 --> 03:02:08.000 We're talking a little bit about the death of Mirva 3349 03:02:08.000 --> 03:02:12.639 as well, and the producer of the new version of 3350 03:02:12.719 --> 03:02:16.520 the Ultimate Cut also said for Perligula to have a 3351 03:02:16.559 --> 03:02:19.079 story arc, it's important that he not be a murderer 3352 03:02:19.360 --> 03:02:22.399 until he gets the ring. So talking about Tiberius's ring, 3353 03:02:22.799 --> 03:02:25.280 even when he's trying to kill the corrupt Tiberius, he 3354 03:02:25.319 --> 03:02:28.600 can't do it if power corrupts. He has to have 3355 03:02:28.680 --> 03:02:31.319 a first act of someone who doesn't have it in 3356 03:02:31.440 --> 03:02:34.079 him until the power gets into his blood. Then in 3357 03:02:34.120 --> 03:02:36.680 the third act, when he loses the only person in 3358 03:02:36.680 --> 03:02:39.079 the world he trusts, he loses it completely. 3359 03:02:39.879 --> 03:02:45.000 That's a matter of interpretation. One might say with Nerva's suicide, 3360 03:02:45.760 --> 03:02:48.639 suddenly he's alone with Nerva and he gets power over 3361 03:02:48.760 --> 03:02:51.680 Nerva who's dying, and he uses that power, he gets 3362 03:02:51.680 --> 03:02:54.600 anger and pushes him down. I don't see why that 3363 03:02:54.639 --> 03:02:57.879 moment would be out of line. Also, I think, again, 3364 03:02:58.000 --> 03:03:00.280 it's not a story arc like that in the film 3365 03:03:00.319 --> 03:03:01.520 that was intended. 3366 03:03:02.399 --> 03:03:05.559 And I guess Nerva's going to die anyway, so it's 3367 03:03:05.799 --> 03:03:09.000 I don't know if it's murder or assisted suicide. 3368 03:03:09.479 --> 03:03:11.200 What did you think of the CGI? 3369 03:03:11.959 --> 03:03:18.120 It wasn't intrusive. The most intrusive thing was that opening 3370 03:03:18.200 --> 03:03:23.280 dream sequence that just felt so tonally off. But then yeah, 3371 03:03:23.399 --> 03:03:25.559 just there were still things like in my notes last night, 3372 03:03:25.600 --> 03:03:27.520 when I was watching the Ultimate Cut, I was just like, 3373 03:03:28.040 --> 03:03:30.639 that was a weird fade out. That was a weird crosst. 3374 03:03:30.959 --> 03:03:32.799 There were a couple things, and there's one shot in 3375 03:03:32.879 --> 03:03:35.000 particular where I was like, oh wow, the quality just 3376 03:03:35.360 --> 03:03:39.719 degraded significantly. I was able to see some things from 3377 03:03:39.959 --> 03:03:42.440 Mission caligular things that you had talked about where I 3378 03:03:42.440 --> 03:03:44.319 was like, Okay, this is good to finally see this, 3379 03:03:44.840 --> 03:03:47.360 and then yeah, weird things where yeah, we fade out 3380 03:03:47.399 --> 03:03:51.760 before we have Caligular talking with Nerva. We've got the 3381 03:03:51.840 --> 03:03:55.520 treasury scene is missing, so it's just, yeah, it's very 3382 03:03:55.600 --> 03:03:58.639 weird what he chose to keep and lead out. So 3383 03:03:58.680 --> 03:04:01.600 the one thing I found very, let's say, disheartening about 3384 03:04:01.639 --> 03:04:05.639 this is that even the producer of The Ultimate Cut 3385 03:04:05.760 --> 03:04:09.639 seems to not necessarily take Tinto Brass and his talent 3386 03:04:09.719 --> 03:04:14.200 and his reputation very seriously. Someone on Facebook posted, if 3387 03:04:14.200 --> 03:04:16.959 you were to make a movie called Oriana The Secretary 3388 03:04:16.959 --> 03:04:19.479 with the Great Ass or something like that, then then 3389 03:04:19.760 --> 03:04:25.239 listen to Tinto otherwise no, and then the producer responded, Okay, 3390 03:04:25.280 --> 03:04:27.559 that did make me laugh out loud. Excellent point. 3391 03:04:28.360 --> 03:04:32.360 To be honest, I find these words quite hard to hear, 3392 03:04:32.799 --> 03:04:35.040 and I find it sad because I feel that every 3393 03:04:35.040 --> 03:04:40.239 film restoration has to respect the director's talents, abilities, and style, 3394 03:04:40.920 --> 03:04:44.680 and to accurately gauge the director's talent, abilities, and style. 3395 03:04:44.840 --> 03:04:48.360 That's also very important to me. This quote basically is 3396 03:04:48.399 --> 03:04:50.399 making fun. If a film is an erotic film, it's 3397 03:04:50.440 --> 03:04:53.399 not to be taken seriously or something like that. I 3398 03:04:53.440 --> 03:04:56.319 think this is about Tinto's reputation as a maker of 3399 03:04:56.399 --> 03:04:59.360 erotic films. He did a lot of erotic films since 3400 03:04:59.399 --> 03:05:04.040 the eighties. Tinto's reputation as a filmmaker in the sixties 3401 03:05:04.079 --> 03:05:09.079 and seventies, he was very highly regarded his talents. His 3402 03:05:09.239 --> 03:05:11.760 very first film in kilavore E Perduto, screened at the 3403 03:05:11.840 --> 03:05:16.399 Venice Film Festival in sixty three. I believe then Umberto Eco, 3404 03:05:17.399 --> 03:05:20.840 who is very famous. Obviously people know, he commissioned Tinto 3405 03:05:20.920 --> 03:05:23.920 to do two short films for La Rinaldo di Milano 3406 03:05:24.239 --> 03:05:28.120 called Tempolbo and Timpo Lavativo, which were screened in La 3407 03:05:28.200 --> 03:05:31.440 in twenty twelve, where Tinto basically tries his hand as 3408 03:05:31.440 --> 03:05:35.799 a completely new experimental filmic language, which worked very well. 3409 03:05:36.719 --> 03:05:39.200 When I think of how highly regarded his films were. 3410 03:05:39.479 --> 03:05:42.280 His film Lorelo screened at the Berlin Film Festival, and 3411 03:05:42.360 --> 03:05:44.879 Tinto a few years later became a member of the 3412 03:05:44.959 --> 03:05:47.479 jury at the Berlin Film Festival in the early seventies. 3413 03:05:48.239 --> 03:05:51.600 His film Lover Cancer greened at Venice Film Festival in 3414 03:05:51.639 --> 03:05:54.440 the early seventies and it received an award that believe 3415 03:05:54.479 --> 03:05:58.840 it was the Critics Prize. Is that when you see Caligula. 3416 03:06:00.000 --> 03:06:05.520 At that time, people regarded Tinto as an avant gardistic filmmaker. 3417 03:06:05.559 --> 03:06:09.040 Who has done this provocative film salone, Kitty and Caligula 3418 03:06:09.079 --> 03:06:12.799 would have continued this, and it's something for years I 3419 03:06:12.920 --> 03:06:15.760 tried to make people aware of Tinto's film career that 3420 03:06:15.840 --> 03:06:18.680 there's basically two phases, erotic films in the second half 3421 03:06:18.719 --> 03:06:23.040 of the career and different films in the first half 3422 03:06:23.120 --> 03:06:25.000 of his career, even though there is a lot of 3423 03:06:25.079 --> 03:06:28.360 overlap and his style continues and so on. And I 3424 03:06:28.479 --> 03:06:31.920 feel if you researched Tinto and his filmography, you immediately 3425 03:06:31.959 --> 03:06:36.000 find all these films that even at their time of release, 3426 03:06:36.040 --> 03:06:39.479 were artistically very highly regarded. And I feel that the 3427 03:06:39.479 --> 03:06:42.000 footage for caliicular that I watched in the work print, 3428 03:06:42.040 --> 03:06:46.440 it would have continued that legacy of Tinto and his experimental, 3429 03:06:46.760 --> 03:06:50.840 often experimental editing that flows. I would say that's something 3430 03:06:50.879 --> 03:06:53.840 that all of Tinto's films have in common, and his 3431 03:06:54.760 --> 03:06:56.799 early films and also a lot of his late films 3432 03:06:56.879 --> 03:07:01.479 is just his brieflowing style. When proach any kind of restoration, 3433 03:07:01.559 --> 03:07:03.799 I want to approach it with a respect for the 3434 03:07:03.879 --> 03:07:07.680 artist's intentions and for the artist's talents. And it never 3435 03:07:07.760 --> 03:07:11.600 once occurred to me too in quotation marks improve upon 3436 03:07:11.719 --> 03:07:15.079 anything of Caligula. That was something I was very aware 3437 03:07:15.120 --> 03:07:17.840 of when I'm working on this. Tinto would have had 3438 03:07:17.879 --> 03:07:21.200 the last word if he were involved, it would be clear. 3439 03:07:21.479 --> 03:07:23.479 If he wouldn't have been involved, I would have made 3440 03:07:23.479 --> 03:07:26.200 a film informed on the work print and on his intentions, 3441 03:07:26.479 --> 03:07:30.360 without putting my damp onto it. So to say, well, 3442 03:07:30.639 --> 03:07:33.719 I've felt Caligula would have been released the way that 3443 03:07:33.799 --> 03:07:36.799 Tinto Dous wanted it, it would be seen as a 3444 03:07:36.879 --> 03:07:39.399 very different film. It would be seen as a huge 3445 03:07:39.440 --> 03:07:44.760 provocative political film, an anarchist film. I think it would 3446 03:07:44.799 --> 03:07:48.760 have been taken much more seriously artistically because a lot 3447 03:07:48.760 --> 03:07:51.479 of violence of the film and a lot of the 3448 03:07:51.559 --> 03:07:54.799 unpleasant scenes, they do make sense in the context that 3449 03:07:54.920 --> 03:07:58.079 Tinto put them in. And this is something that makes 3450 03:07:58.120 --> 03:08:05.159 me very sad that this vision beers still unrealized. The 3451 03:08:05.200 --> 03:08:07.959 silver lining on all this is that I was able 3452 03:08:08.000 --> 03:08:10.959 to release Mission Curricular, and I remember when I edited 3453 03:08:11.000 --> 03:08:13.239 that film, and then you and I had our long 3454 03:08:13.280 --> 03:08:16.360 conversations about Mission Curricular back a few years ago. I 3455 03:08:16.440 --> 03:08:20.520 want to put as many interesting moments in there as possible, 3456 03:08:21.040 --> 03:08:24.479 or people who like the film were really diving deeply 3457 03:08:24.520 --> 03:08:28.520 into that film. Of course, Mission Curricular state PG. I 3458 03:08:28.520 --> 03:08:30.719 didn't put any of the violence scenes in it ra 3459 03:08:31.239 --> 03:08:34.680 any of that. But if you really study the editing 3460 03:08:34.719 --> 03:08:37.399 of Curricular, and then if you go through Mission Curricular, 3461 03:08:37.760 --> 03:08:40.000 you will see in the black and white work print 3462 03:08:40.079 --> 03:08:44.520 some scene transitions and some things that people just speculated 3463 03:08:44.559 --> 03:08:48.040 about prior. So at least I find in Mission Curricular 3464 03:08:48.520 --> 03:08:52.479 you can still see where this project would have been going, 3465 03:08:52.520 --> 03:08:55.799 and what does intensions wear. I think I think the 3466 03:08:55.840 --> 03:08:57.920 only thing I really want people to know is that 3467 03:08:57.959 --> 03:09:00.799 Mission Curricular and the idea to do a director's cut 3468 03:09:00.840 --> 03:09:04.600 off calicular to reconstruct one is entirely different from what 3469 03:09:04.719 --> 03:09:05.680 has come out now. 3470 03:09:06.440 --> 03:09:09.280 So how about you? Are you able to put Caligula 3471 03:09:09.399 --> 03:09:11.399 behind you? Or do you even want to put that 3472 03:09:11.440 --> 03:09:15.239 behind you because you've spent so many years invested in 3473 03:09:15.239 --> 03:09:15.799 this film. 3474 03:09:16.440 --> 03:09:19.920 This is a really good question. Let's say if someone 3475 03:09:19.959 --> 03:09:22.000 approached me today and said, I want to make it 3476 03:09:22.040 --> 03:09:25.319 possible to do this cut, we'll try to get tinto 3477 03:09:25.440 --> 03:09:28.440 involved and so on, I would be as excited as 3478 03:09:28.479 --> 03:09:31.000 I was years ago. Though I don't know the condition 3479 03:09:31.079 --> 03:09:34.040 the archive is in a few years ago, someone sent 3480 03:09:34.120 --> 03:09:37.280 me a picture of the footage being scanned, which was 3481 03:09:37.280 --> 03:09:40.440 apparently put up on social media where you could see 3482 03:09:40.760 --> 03:09:43.280 a half frame in the beginning being sliced off, a 3483 03:09:43.360 --> 03:09:46.719 half frame in the end sliced off. And I'm very 3484 03:09:46.959 --> 03:09:50.520 thorough about getting every frame. But I don't know about 3485 03:09:50.520 --> 03:09:53.680 the condition of the archive. But I think the excitement 3486 03:09:53.680 --> 03:09:56.600 could be reawokened, but it would have to be serious 3487 03:09:56.639 --> 03:09:59.559 because I talk to other people who are very involved 3488 03:09:59.559 --> 03:10:01.799 in calige. You line various ways, and they all thought 3489 03:10:01.879 --> 03:10:03.639 told me, there is this up and down. You get 3490 03:10:03.680 --> 03:10:06.559 a lot of hope up and then stopped the hope 3491 03:10:06.600 --> 03:10:09.639 and stop. Let's say, in my daily life, I don't 3492 03:10:09.719 --> 03:10:12.760 try to think about it too much. I feel this 3493 03:10:12.840 --> 03:10:15.639 interview is very important to me to get this viewpoint out, 3494 03:10:15.680 --> 03:10:18.200 and I feel that listeners should also watch Mission calicular, 3495 03:10:18.360 --> 03:10:20.760 listen to our prior conversations to get an idea of 3496 03:10:20.760 --> 03:10:23.319 what the film was, what it was supposed to be. Like, 3497 03:10:24.159 --> 03:10:27.239 I tend to not think about it too often. When 3498 03:10:27.280 --> 03:10:30.520 I think about it, it's, let's say, a tragic work 3499 03:10:30.520 --> 03:10:34.399 of art that exists in a ruined state. To me, 3500 03:10:34.600 --> 03:10:38.280 when I look at this in a more metaphorical way, 3501 03:10:38.520 --> 03:10:41.280 like a ruined from an ancient building or so, you 3502 03:10:41.319 --> 03:10:44.079 can still gauge what the film was supposed to be like. 3503 03:10:44.559 --> 03:10:48.000 But you don't really see the entire construction. And when 3504 03:10:48.040 --> 03:10:50.840 you watch the theatrical cut, I don't know the new cut, 3505 03:10:50.879 --> 03:10:53.959 but I guess this involves any cut that doesn't follow 3506 03:10:54.000 --> 03:10:57.959 Tinto's intentions. It's basically impossible to see what Tinto was 3507 03:10:58.000 --> 03:11:01.920 going for because so much was shot, so many interesting 3508 03:11:01.959 --> 03:11:05.000 camera angle. When I looked at the work print, some 3509 03:11:05.200 --> 03:11:08.120 parts just surprised me. When I saw them, I knew 3510 03:11:08.159 --> 03:11:10.719 they existed, but then I saw them and I was like, Okay, 3511 03:11:10.760 --> 03:11:13.079 this is how he did it. But I guess with 3512 03:11:13.159 --> 03:11:16.120 Mission Curricular, there is enough out there so people can 3513 03:11:16.200 --> 03:11:19.040 get an opinion. Though I find it said that you 3514 03:11:19.079 --> 03:11:24.000 can't just intuitively watch Curricular the director's cut or curricular 3515 03:11:24.040 --> 03:11:26.440 that reconstructed to us work print. 3516 03:11:27.079 --> 03:11:30.040 I know you are never one to not be busy. 3517 03:11:30.520 --> 03:11:32.280 What are you working on these days? 3518 03:11:32.719 --> 03:11:36.760 I did a documentary which when I did my film 3519 03:11:36.760 --> 03:11:38.559 Fits and Leave in Paris, we did a lot of 3520 03:11:38.559 --> 03:11:42.000 behind scenes footage and I did a lot of documentaries 3521 03:11:42.000 --> 03:11:45.399 about old artists, some of them have since passed away. 3522 03:11:45.520 --> 03:11:48.440 That was Roger Ball and the Mohave Desert. That film 3523 03:11:48.520 --> 03:11:52.399 was actually running for the Oscars in twenty eighteen. It 3524 03:11:52.559 --> 03:11:56.799 was in competition. It didn't get to the short list, 3525 03:11:56.840 --> 03:11:59.520 but it was in competition for short documentary, and I 3526 03:11:59.559 --> 03:12:02.479 realized have so much footage of friends of mine who 3527 03:12:02.520 --> 03:12:05.399 have since passed away and so on. So I decided 3528 03:12:05.399 --> 03:12:08.760 to do a documentary called Cutting Squares, which is not 3529 03:12:08.879 --> 03:12:11.280 yet released. It did have its world premiere in la 3530 03:12:11.399 --> 03:12:16.120 a few weeks ago, which is an autobiographical look at 3531 03:12:16.120 --> 03:12:19.680 my filmmaking and at the people I met there, and 3532 03:12:19.760 --> 03:12:22.799 I got very positive feedback about it. It features a 3533 03:12:22.799 --> 03:12:26.479 lot of encounter with interesting people, including hellwert Burger's very 3534 03:12:26.559 --> 03:12:29.399 last time in front of film camera. I did a 3535 03:12:29.399 --> 03:12:34.319 film with hellwood Berger called Revolution, which installed for various reasons. 3536 03:12:34.319 --> 03:12:36.840 But I put a lot of putag into this documentary, 3537 03:12:36.920 --> 03:12:39.120 so that is getting quite some interest and it makes 3538 03:12:39.159 --> 03:12:40.040 me very happy. 3539 03:12:40.680 --> 03:12:42.520 I think you might have been working out Revolution the 3540 03:12:42.600 --> 03:12:43.200 last time that. 3541 03:12:43.120 --> 03:12:48.520 We talked exactly basically that film. It started in twenty seventeen. 3542 03:12:48.799 --> 03:12:50.879 I had written the screenplay in two thousand and nine, 3543 03:12:50.920 --> 03:12:54.040 and normally I do my films very quickly, but this 3544 03:12:54.159 --> 03:12:58.600 film Revolution, there were a few roadblocks happening scheduling wise 3545 03:12:58.799 --> 03:13:01.600 and so on, and they had to recast a role, 3546 03:13:01.639 --> 03:13:06.559 and then the Caligular thing happened, and basically I put 3547 03:13:06.600 --> 03:13:08.639 that on ice. It's the only film of mine that 3548 03:13:08.680 --> 03:13:11.319 I've ever put on ice. Parts of it I did 3549 03:13:11.319 --> 03:13:14.559 as a film called gas Shaped Light, about a toxic relationship. 3550 03:13:15.120 --> 03:13:18.639 Gas Shaped Light I did shortly after the Caligular project 3551 03:13:18.639 --> 03:13:23.600 fell apart. It's about a relationship where a man is 3552 03:13:23.639 --> 03:13:27.520 together with seemingly nice girl who keeps twisting his words 3553 03:13:27.559 --> 03:13:30.920 around and making it more more difficult, which kind of 3554 03:13:31.719 --> 03:13:34.120 was a darker film than my others. I don't know 3555 03:13:34.120 --> 03:13:36.520 if I'm going to continue working on Revolution, but now 3556 03:13:36.520 --> 03:13:38.879 the footage of Family Dagger is out in the film 3557 03:13:38.920 --> 03:13:42.319 Cutting Square, so I'm happy about that to them. Right now, 3558 03:13:42.360 --> 03:13:45.840 actually working to get potentially my PhD in history, I 3559 03:13:45.879 --> 03:13:49.280 started some family history research. My family is from Covina. 3560 03:13:49.399 --> 03:13:52.639 Originally it is a completely different chapter. I started to 3561 03:13:52.680 --> 03:13:56.120 research my great grandfather more and I found so much 3562 03:13:56.159 --> 03:13:57.680 that I might be able to turn it into a 3563 03:13:57.680 --> 03:14:00.879 PhD thesis. So I'm working a lot in archive these days. 3564 03:14:01.280 --> 03:14:05.639 I just spent combined several weeks over some stays at 3565 03:14:05.680 --> 03:14:10.799 the Vienna State Archives finding so many documents about my 3566 03:14:10.959 --> 03:14:14.360 family history about who was related to this and so on. 3567 03:14:14.600 --> 03:14:16.120 This is very exciting work for me. 3568 03:14:16.799 --> 03:14:18.479 I don't want to put words in your mouth, but 3569 03:14:18.520 --> 03:14:22.479 I'm curious if the experience you had around the new 3570 03:14:22.559 --> 03:14:25.680 cut of Caligula, if that informed Gas Shaped Light. 3571 03:14:26.680 --> 03:14:30.280 Let's say it informed my mood at that time. Let's 3572 03:14:30.280 --> 03:14:32.879 put it that the one thing in Gas Shaped Light, 3573 03:14:32.879 --> 03:14:36.799 the lead character is called Alex. When people watch it, 3574 03:14:36.920 --> 03:14:39.200 they oh, this happened to you. I got to say 3575 03:14:39.319 --> 03:14:41.719 this was a joke on set that kind of got 3576 03:14:41.760 --> 03:14:43.440 out of hand where I was like, oh, how do 3577 03:14:43.479 --> 03:14:46.200 we name I love to use improvisation in my films. 3578 03:14:46.239 --> 03:14:48.559 I thought, how do we name the main actor and 3579 03:14:48.879 --> 03:14:51.239 the main character? And the actor was joking, oh, let's 3580 03:14:51.239 --> 03:14:54.040 call him Alex, and I said, oh, that's funny. Then 3581 03:14:54.159 --> 03:14:56.440 we shot the first season Alex, and that it stay. 3582 03:14:57.079 --> 03:14:59.360 I would say Gas Shaped Light is look into my 3583 03:14:59.440 --> 03:15:03.920 mood those days. But there were different things happening. When 3584 03:15:03.959 --> 03:15:06.399 I did a film called fatsen Leven The Year After, 3585 03:15:06.479 --> 03:15:10.079 which is also about a relationship breaking apart and being toxic. 3586 03:15:10.799 --> 03:15:13.280 At least there the lead character doesn't have a name 3587 03:15:13.360 --> 03:15:16.719 and she looks completely unlike me, which I found nice. 3588 03:15:16.719 --> 03:15:20.600 So people WoT we didn't assume that it's me. Basically, 3589 03:15:20.600 --> 03:15:22.719 I often put my moods and my thoughts into my 3590 03:15:22.799 --> 03:15:26.879 sholms with but I never put it directly. I never 3591 03:15:26.920 --> 03:15:29.159 make a film that says, oh, this happened to me. 3592 03:15:29.239 --> 03:15:30.760 Now I'm going to show you what happened to me. 3593 03:15:30.799 --> 03:15:34.079 It's more a general gist, a general loot, some thoughts 3594 03:15:34.079 --> 03:15:37.760 and so on, and things I observe and all get condensed. 3595 03:15:38.040 --> 03:15:40.559 You cano much see what I'm at or what my 3596 03:15:40.600 --> 03:15:42.479 mindset is when you look at my films of ich 3597 03:15:42.479 --> 03:15:43.280 respective time. 3598 03:15:44.000 --> 03:15:46.200 Alexander, where's the best place for people to keep up 3599 03:15:46.200 --> 03:15:47.000 with you in your work? 3600 03:15:47.600 --> 03:15:50.840 Well, you can follow my Facebook account or on Instagram, 3601 03:15:50.920 --> 03:15:53.399 and I have a website. You can just type in 3602 03:15:53.399 --> 03:15:55.799 my name and you find my website, and when something 3603 03:15:55.799 --> 03:15:57.319 new happens, I'll just post it. 3604 03:15:58.040 --> 03:15:59.799 Alexander, we need to get you back on the show 3605 03:15:59.840 --> 03:16:03.760 for something else other than painful memories of Caligula. We 3606 03:16:03.840 --> 03:16:07.079 need to speak more than every six years or so. 3607 03:16:07.799 --> 03:16:10.079 But I look forward to that next time of being 3608 03:16:10.079 --> 03:16:12.079 able to have a better conversation with you. 3609 03:16:12.799 --> 03:16:15.600 Thank you me too. It was a pleasure, even though 3610 03:16:15.639 --> 03:16:19.600 it was a topic that's unpleasant. It felt very pleasant 3611 03:16:19.600 --> 03:16:20.200 to talk to you. 3612 03:16:20.239 --> 03:16:22.840 Still, well, I'm glad you went there. Thank you so much. 3613 03:16:23.559 --> 03:16:23.920 Thank you. 3614 03:16:48.840 --> 03:16:51.000 All Right, we're back when we were talking about Caligula 3615 03:16:51.120 --> 03:16:53.479 The Ultimate Cut. First up, I should say that the 3616 03:16:53.559 --> 03:16:56.840 producer of The Ultimate Cut, Thomas the Govin, who assembled 3617 03:16:56.840 --> 03:16:59.479 a team to work on the editing, color grading, score, 3618 03:16:59.600 --> 03:17:02.840 digital facts, et cetera, was approached for an interview for 3619 03:17:02.920 --> 03:17:05.600 this episode but declined. This is in no way a 3620 03:17:05.680 --> 03:17:09.600 hit piece on Nagovian. I've never actually met him and 3621 03:17:09.639 --> 03:17:13.920 we've only had limited interaction on Facebook Messenger. He may 3622 03:17:13.959 --> 03:17:16.719 have sent me an email back in twenty nineteen, and 3623 03:17:16.799 --> 03:17:19.360 his email address prefilled itself when I was trying to 3624 03:17:19.360 --> 03:17:21.959 write to him about this episode, so that definitely holds 3625 03:17:21.959 --> 03:17:24.959 some water. I know that he emailed Rob, so it 3626 03:17:25.280 --> 03:17:27.399 makes sense, and he said in his email that he 3627 03:17:27.479 --> 03:17:30.120 was going to email me. But yeah, I even donated 3628 03:17:30.200 --> 03:17:33.760 to his calligular book on Kickstarter, and we can discuss 3629 03:17:33.799 --> 03:17:35.159 that a little bit later in the show if we 3630 03:17:35.200 --> 03:17:37.239 feel like it. But yeah, talk a little bit about 3631 03:17:37.280 --> 03:17:39.840 Thomas Dgovin and what we know about this guy. 3632 03:17:40.719 --> 03:17:44.040 I was gonna mention that my interactions with him was 3633 03:17:44.079 --> 03:17:46.280 a bit more than you so he had emailed me 3634 03:17:46.520 --> 03:17:50.040 after we had done the two colligular episodes and he 3635 03:17:50.159 --> 03:17:52.639 told me that he was working with someone notable and 3636 03:17:52.959 --> 03:17:55.639 wanted to put together this book and there were some 3637 03:17:55.719 --> 03:17:58.280 other things, and so I actually have a phone call 3638 03:17:58.360 --> 03:17:59.799 with him. I think we have had two song calls 3639 03:17:59.840 --> 03:18:04.079 with it. And it was actually before this I even 3640 03:18:04.159 --> 03:18:07.000 knew that this new version was coming together, because I 3641 03:18:07.000 --> 03:18:09.520 didn't know anything was happening. I went back and I 3642 03:18:09.559 --> 03:18:12.479 looked at the date stamps I'm an email, and it 3643 03:18:12.479 --> 03:18:14.079 was it was like the end of last year or 3644 03:18:14.120 --> 03:18:17.520 something like. I wasn't plugged in to the fact that 3645 03:18:17.559 --> 03:18:19.200 this thing had played at camp. I didn't know that. 3646 03:18:19.360 --> 03:18:22.200 I'm out of it, Like I don't follow film as 3647 03:18:22.239 --> 03:18:24.440 close as they used to. And I emailed him and 3648 03:18:24.440 --> 03:18:27.200 I never heard back. So I just figured dead letter office, 3649 03:18:27.319 --> 03:18:31.280 you know, as happens with emails. So I always found 3650 03:18:31.440 --> 03:18:33.799 him to be straight with me, tell me what was 3651 03:18:33.840 --> 03:18:36.319 going on. He was asking me for assistance and could 3652 03:18:36.360 --> 03:18:38.600 I connect him with people, and I said, sure, you know, 3653 03:18:38.639 --> 03:18:41.159 whatever you need, let me know. And you know, as 3654 03:18:41.200 --> 03:18:44.719 in the past when we've done commentary tracks or things 3655 03:18:44.799 --> 03:18:47.159 like that, I was always more than willing to help 3656 03:18:47.200 --> 03:18:49.840 people if something came out of it or not, because 3657 03:18:50.479 --> 03:18:53.840 just being a gigantic film nerd, I always want things 3658 03:18:53.879 --> 03:18:57.639 to work out as best they can. And this one, 3659 03:18:57.719 --> 03:19:00.879 being as long and beandering as it's been with all 3660 03:19:00.920 --> 03:19:03.680 of the various players and facets, as we've discussed over 3661 03:19:03.760 --> 03:19:06.639 two episodes plus on here, I just thought it would 3662 03:19:06.639 --> 03:19:10.159 be great to see something coming it. But like I said, 3663 03:19:10.200 --> 03:19:12.719 I haven't talked to him probably since before COVID so 3664 03:19:12.799 --> 03:19:15.399 may it's been like twenty nineteen or early twenty twenty, 3665 03:19:15.440 --> 03:19:16.040 something like that. 3666 03:19:16.559 --> 03:19:18.879 And I know back then he had talked about pairing 3667 03:19:18.920 --> 03:19:23.600 with Elis Marengue, the guy that did Begotten and Shadow 3668 03:19:23.600 --> 03:19:26.879 of the Vampire. It was a quote in an interview 3669 03:19:27.159 --> 03:19:30.840 he had with Fangoria. But I don't think that Marengi's 3670 03:19:30.920 --> 03:19:32.760 name is on this new version. I don't know if 3671 03:19:32.760 --> 03:19:34.799 they had a falling out or what happened with that. 3672 03:19:34.959 --> 03:19:37.239 If Negovin would go on record, that would be one 3673 03:19:37.239 --> 03:19:39.280 of the questions I would have asked him, is what 3674 03:19:39.440 --> 03:19:43.760 happened with that? Because I'm curious. I'm also curious about 3675 03:19:43.760 --> 03:19:46.479 Negovin's pedigree to your point from earlier, how the as 3676 03:19:46.479 --> 03:19:50.040 far as him having knowing McKeon and stuff. It feels 3677 03:19:50.040 --> 03:19:52.879 like his rolodex. And I think Caroline Kirkandhal even says 3678 03:19:52.879 --> 03:19:55.840 this his rolodex is crazy. He knows a ton of people, 3679 03:19:55.879 --> 03:19:58.719 and he's been connected through the art world for so long. 3680 03:19:58.799 --> 03:20:01.000 I know he's made a couple of short films. It 3681 03:20:01.120 --> 03:20:03.719 just feels like such a strange choice to have Negovin 3682 03:20:04.360 --> 03:20:08.200 take this project over. But at the same time, I think, again, 3683 03:20:08.520 --> 03:20:11.680 right place, right time. He was approached by somebody at 3684 03:20:11.760 --> 03:20:16.120 the same place that Carolyn Kirkandal works at, as she said, 3685 03:20:16.159 --> 03:20:18.760 and so it was like, all right, this, let's go 3686 03:20:18.799 --> 03:20:21.520 ahead with this. And I just one other thing I 3687 03:20:21.520 --> 03:20:24.879 should say is that I over the years, I've had 3688 03:20:25.000 --> 03:20:27.840 so many people, especially one person and I can't remember 3689 03:20:27.879 --> 03:20:30.120 his name because I blocked him on Facebook, because this 3690 03:20:30.200 --> 03:20:33.760 motherfucker would just not stop messaging me about killing Gula. 3691 03:20:33.959 --> 03:20:36.399 Like every few months it would just be like, hey, 3692 03:20:36.440 --> 03:20:39.079 this is happening, and it would always be like he 3693 03:20:39.159 --> 03:20:41.600 was angry about stuff. And after a while it's just 3694 03:20:41.760 --> 03:20:45.399 I am so not invested in this nearly as much 3695 03:20:45.440 --> 03:20:48.360 as you are. Please stop sending me this stuff. And 3696 03:20:48.399 --> 03:20:50.319 then it was just more and more, and after a 3697 03:20:50.360 --> 03:20:52.120 while I was just like I got a block. 3698 03:20:52.200 --> 03:20:57.479 Yeah, sorry, yeah, that's crazy. Also, I forgive you for 3699 03:20:57.559 --> 03:21:02.479 blocking may minds now I'm jogging out. People obviously get 3700 03:21:02.520 --> 03:21:05.639 very passionate about it, so thatimes too passionate though, though 3701 03:21:05.719 --> 03:21:09.280 that's a yeah. No, I was so curious researching because No, 3702 03:21:09.440 --> 03:21:12.920 Thompas has a fascinating career. I mean, he's even done 3703 03:21:13.040 --> 03:21:15.680 music and is recorded on like a wax cylinder, which 3704 03:21:15.760 --> 03:21:19.079 is a very old school format, and it's definitely an 3705 03:21:19.079 --> 03:21:21.879 interesting guy and it's it is. He's not the most 3706 03:21:21.879 --> 03:21:24.799 obvious choice on the outset, but it is an interesting 3707 03:21:24.879 --> 03:21:27.799 one and he obviously the thing I really did admire 3708 03:21:27.920 --> 03:21:31.840 researching when I was working on the commentary is the 3709 03:21:31.920 --> 03:21:34.079 amount of time him and Erran and he gives his 3710 03:21:34.280 --> 03:21:38.399 editor a lot, and as he should, but he does, 3711 03:21:38.479 --> 03:21:40.959 and I love that because I think sometimes it's easy 3712 03:21:41.040 --> 03:21:43.479 for people and because I don't even know what you 3713 03:21:43.520 --> 03:21:46.399 call him. He's a director of sorts. But it's it's 3714 03:21:46.399 --> 03:21:48.319 almost a film in some ways, as like a motherless 3715 03:21:48.399 --> 03:21:52.200 child realistically, just it is what it is. But if 3716 03:21:52.239 --> 03:21:55.399 anybody hell anything, I guess I should say, usually don't 3717 03:21:55.520 --> 03:21:57.680 give the editors props, but the editors are the ones 3718 03:21:57.680 --> 03:21:59.920 that build the spine of the piece, They build the 3719 03:22:00.040 --> 03:22:04.760 rhythm of the piece. I think editors get vastly underrated sometimes, 3720 03:22:05.040 --> 03:22:06.879 so it's cool to see that. And I know they'd 3721 03:22:06.920 --> 03:22:09.639 worked together in some of the short film projects beforehand. 3722 03:22:10.479 --> 03:22:12.440 I will I do hate it that he's had a 3723 03:22:12.479 --> 03:22:12.840 part of this. 3724 03:22:12.920 --> 03:22:13.680 It would be cool. 3725 03:22:13.920 --> 03:22:16.319 It would have been cool to have that, especially because 3726 03:22:16.319 --> 03:22:19.440 I know there are some people that have some confusion 3727 03:22:19.479 --> 03:22:22.159 about this project. And yeah, it's not the Tinto cut, 3728 03:22:22.200 --> 03:22:27.079 and it's never unless something magical happens. It's to me, 3729 03:22:27.239 --> 03:22:30.319 it's basically having the Tinto version or anything close to that. 3730 03:22:30.399 --> 03:22:33.959 It's like tears in the rain, It's gone, it's gone. 3731 03:22:34.559 --> 03:22:37.680 We would have I think Mission Caligula probably would have 3732 03:22:37.719 --> 03:22:43.000 been that cut, just because Alexander studied Tinto and worked 3733 03:22:43.079 --> 03:22:45.959 directly with Tinto and had him on board with that. 3734 03:22:46.559 --> 03:22:50.479 And I'm not really privy, Yeah, I'm not. Obviously I 3735 03:22:50.559 --> 03:22:54.799 wasn't part of any phone calls or anything to know 3736 03:22:55.000 --> 03:22:58.479 what machination how the deck of cards fell down and 3737 03:22:58.520 --> 03:23:03.159 got resect on. That's the closest thing I could find. 3738 03:23:03.680 --> 03:23:05.319 And I found this actually from one of my original 3739 03:23:05.360 --> 03:23:07.719 note cards. As far as thom I found this from 3740 03:23:07.760 --> 03:23:11.440 an interview Thomas did for synaps dot Co, where he 3741 03:23:11.479 --> 03:23:15.280 said a friend of his who worked at Penthouse Global Licensing, 3742 03:23:15.559 --> 03:23:18.760 which is a division that handles legacy materials, had changed 3743 03:23:18.799 --> 03:23:21.879 hands a number of times, including Penthouse itself, which is 3744 03:23:22.079 --> 03:23:25.360 an allusion to Kelly Holland getting which sounds like that 3745 03:23:25.760 --> 03:23:30.040 was messy. She's a fascinating lighting. She's one the more 3746 03:23:30.079 --> 03:23:32.360 I've read up, I would love to talk to her. 3747 03:23:32.559 --> 03:23:35.520 I just find her really, especially as she was one 3748 03:23:35.559 --> 03:23:38.920 of the very few female directors an adult before she 3749 03:23:39.000 --> 03:23:41.120 was in Penthouse. She also has done a ton of 3750 03:23:41.120 --> 03:23:44.920 animal rights stuff and the fact that just to quick 3751 03:23:44.920 --> 03:23:47.719 aside to give her some major prompts because I feel 3752 03:23:47.760 --> 03:23:50.600 like she gets disparaged, like when you do find her 3753 03:23:50.639 --> 03:23:53.360 online about her Penthouse front is that she entered the 3754 03:23:53.479 --> 03:23:57.399 company loving Bob Gucciani and even with that, when she 3755 03:23:57.520 --> 03:24:01.360 entered this project with Alexander Reykigni the flaws of what 3756 03:24:01.600 --> 03:24:04.440 he did, and to me, it's like I almost felt 3757 03:24:04.440 --> 03:24:06.719 like maybe her working with Alexander was like doing an 3758 03:24:06.719 --> 03:24:10.079 alms or something like try to atone for the sins 3759 03:24:10.120 --> 03:24:13.040 of the father sort of thing, And I don't know, 3760 03:24:13.120 --> 03:24:14.760 I find I have a lot of respect for people 3761 03:24:14.760 --> 03:24:16.920 who can look at their heroes and be that objective. 3762 03:24:17.760 --> 03:24:19.959 She's great on the second episode. If you go back 3763 03:24:19.959 --> 03:24:22.879 and listen to her interview with us, She's just a 3764 03:24:22.920 --> 03:24:23.799 fascinating person. 3765 03:24:24.399 --> 03:24:28.120 Brin. She did write an article called It'll Never Happen 3766 03:24:28.399 --> 03:24:31.600 on his colligulid dot org site. At one point he 3767 03:24:31.680 --> 03:24:34.600 talks about how she wanted him to write about the 3768 03:24:34.719 --> 03:24:37.959 history of and House and he said, it's not going 3769 03:24:38.000 --> 03:24:40.440 to be pretty. And he basically told her what a 3770 03:24:40.559 --> 03:24:43.440 you know, GUCCIONI is and she's, oh, yeah, no, that's okay, 3771 03:24:43.559 --> 03:24:45.600 I want the full truth. And I was like, that's 3772 03:24:45.719 --> 03:24:46.600 very admirable. 3773 03:24:46.799 --> 03:24:49.360 It's extremely It's sad to say that the memorable because 3774 03:24:49.360 --> 03:24:52.079 that's how everybody should be, but we know, we all 3775 03:24:52.159 --> 03:24:55.479 know that is the rareer. So yeah, I have a 3776 03:24:55.600 --> 03:24:58.399 lot of respect for her, and she's somebody I would 3777 03:24:58.440 --> 03:25:01.399 love just to have a couple of and just talk with. 3778 03:25:01.600 --> 03:25:05.200 She's cool. Basically the testing what you were saying, Mike, 3779 03:25:05.239 --> 03:25:07.239 it just sounds like in the interview he got hit 3780 03:25:07.319 --> 03:25:11.120 up by this this contact a Penthouse global and it's 3781 03:25:11.239 --> 03:25:14.879 I can't imagine anybody. It's a huge thing to undertake. 3782 03:25:15.399 --> 03:25:18.559 But god, what a cool, what a fascinating thing. I 3783 03:25:18.559 --> 03:25:20.520 don't know if I could blame anybody for taking such 3784 03:25:20.559 --> 03:25:24.319 a gig, right, but I do wish we had, of course, 3785 03:25:24.360 --> 03:25:27.079 I think we all do. If you love a cinema, 3786 03:25:27.159 --> 03:25:29.200 if you would want that team Doe cut just we 3787 03:25:29.280 --> 03:25:32.120 all dream about, Okay, where's London after midnight? But like 3788 03:25:32.200 --> 03:25:34.639 finding that print and somebody's at it, having the full 3789 03:25:34.719 --> 03:25:38.360 like cut greed dreaming is free at least. Yeah. 3790 03:25:38.680 --> 03:25:38.920 Yeah. 3791 03:25:39.079 --> 03:25:41.440 One thing about his background that I think really comes 3792 03:25:41.440 --> 03:25:44.280 through in this version or Good or Hill is because 3793 03:25:44.280 --> 03:25:46.959 he has that visual arts background, I feel like we 3794 03:25:47.040 --> 03:25:48.479 get a lot of wide shots. 3795 03:25:48.959 --> 03:25:49.159 Yeah. 3796 03:25:49.799 --> 03:25:54.360 He wants us to be immersed in these sets, and 3797 03:25:54.920 --> 03:25:58.239 while it's fine, it just feels. As we've talked about 3798 03:25:58.280 --> 03:26:01.879 many times here, one of the technical aspects of making 3799 03:26:01.920 --> 03:26:03.799 film really is all in the editing and to the 3800 03:26:03.920 --> 03:26:07.200 length of the shots, why they're there when you're cutting 3801 03:26:07.200 --> 03:26:09.680 to something else, and what does the order mean, What 3802 03:26:09.719 --> 03:26:11.559 does the order mean within that section, what does that 3803 03:26:11.680 --> 03:26:14.959 order mean within the hole? And the thing is that 3804 03:26:15.040 --> 03:26:17.079 while it wasn't complete, we at least had a ninety 3805 03:26:17.120 --> 03:26:21.440 minute workprint to work from, so he could have at 3806 03:26:21.520 --> 03:26:24.319 least looked at that ninety minutes, and like I say, 3807 03:26:24.399 --> 03:26:27.000 I have no way of knowing, because I've never watched 3808 03:26:27.479 --> 03:26:30.719 the ninety minute work print that Alexander has and to 3809 03:26:30.760 --> 03:26:34.360 compare it against this and to go, Okay, this is 3810 03:26:34.399 --> 03:26:36.840 where it is, and this is this matches and this 3811 03:26:36.920 --> 03:26:39.159 is what it should be. But at the same time, 3812 03:26:39.639 --> 03:26:44.079 the question becomes if he's basing it against a script. 3813 03:26:44.879 --> 03:26:47.879 The script is not final film either. For example, you 3814 03:26:47.920 --> 03:26:51.639 had done Graduate recently, and this was something I didn't 3815 03:26:51.680 --> 03:26:52.959 know and I can't remember if it was on the 3816 03:26:53.000 --> 03:26:54.639 show or if it was what I picked up from 3817 03:26:54.639 --> 03:26:57.399 the Criterion, And when I rewatched it and listening to 3818 03:26:57.479 --> 03:26:59.840 the commentary, was there were voiceovers in there where those 3819 03:27:00.000 --> 03:27:03.799 I'man and Garfunkel songs are and Mike Nichols, I don't 3820 03:27:03.799 --> 03:27:05.799 need these voiceovers. It gives me real the fucking voiceover. Put 3821 03:27:05.799 --> 03:27:08.000 the Simon and Garfunkel song in, and that works better 3822 03:27:08.399 --> 03:27:11.520 than having all these voiceover and offscreen dialogues going on 3823 03:27:11.879 --> 03:27:15.760 over these driving scenes. Ultimately, even if it's in the script, 3824 03:27:16.079 --> 03:27:18.040 even if it's on the page, it doesn't end up 3825 03:27:18.079 --> 03:27:20.360 on the stage. That's the difference between film and a play. 3826 03:27:20.920 --> 03:27:23.000 So there's part of me that I give him his 3827 03:27:23.079 --> 03:27:25.159 props for going, Okay, we're going to work from the 3828 03:27:25.239 --> 03:27:26.879 Dials script and we're going to try and be as 3829 03:27:26.879 --> 03:27:30.399 faithful as this, But even that is now guaranteed that 3830 03:27:30.440 --> 03:27:33.399 you're going to come up with a completed version that 3831 03:27:34.120 --> 03:27:36.280 is what was intended. 3832 03:27:36.360 --> 03:27:36.639 Either. 3833 03:27:37.159 --> 03:27:40.280 These are all lots of things to think about, and 3834 03:27:40.639 --> 03:27:42.680 as I was looking at this, one of the things 3835 03:27:42.920 --> 03:27:46.280 and I don't know if we got a truncated marketing 3836 03:27:46.319 --> 03:27:48.600 packet or if it was just two pages. I want 3837 03:27:48.600 --> 03:27:49.639 to hope that it was bigger. 3838 03:27:50.200 --> 03:27:52.520 That's what the PR company sent to me. 3839 03:27:53.319 --> 03:27:55.920 So I want to hope that there was more because 3840 03:27:55.920 --> 03:27:57.879 one of the sales points of this film is one 3841 03:27:58.559 --> 03:28:02.040 new footage, right, And I'm just like, yeah, And I 3842 03:28:02.079 --> 03:28:04.360 don't care that it's one hundred percent in shots. That 3843 03:28:04.399 --> 03:28:08.079 doesn't excite me. I was thinking about this as a 3844 03:28:08.120 --> 03:28:10.399 comparable and I'm a huge fan of the Stooges, and 3845 03:28:10.440 --> 03:28:13.000 i had the Stooges Complete Funhouse Sessions, which is eight 3846 03:28:13.040 --> 03:28:16.760 hours of everything they recorded, and I go, this would 3847 03:28:16.760 --> 03:28:19.120 be the equivalent of someone taking that and going, I'm 3848 03:28:19.159 --> 03:28:22.159 going to make my own version of the Funhouse album. 3849 03:28:22.399 --> 03:28:25.200 I'm going to take this take and that take the 3850 03:28:25.280 --> 03:28:28.399 band already say if they couldn't have completed it, maybe 3851 03:28:28.440 --> 03:28:31.200 they said okay, they sequenced the first four tracks off 3852 03:28:31.200 --> 03:28:35.040 the album as an equivalent and said, okay, these four songs, 3853 03:28:35.040 --> 03:28:37.639 and I don't care about that. I'm sequencing this entirely 3854 03:28:37.680 --> 03:28:40.440 the way that Icy fit, based on what Icy fit, 3855 03:28:41.040 --> 03:28:43.559 because that's the thing that I think, really when I 3856 03:28:43.600 --> 03:28:45.879 look at this against something like what Walter Merch did 3857 03:28:45.879 --> 03:28:48.159 with Touch of Evil, Grant and it wells wasn't around, 3858 03:28:48.479 --> 03:28:52.639 but he left a really long memo on every scene 3859 03:28:52.840 --> 03:28:55.159 and what he wanted. So I'm in this place where 3860 03:28:55.799 --> 03:28:59.040 I appreciate this version for all the goal and new 3861 03:28:59.079 --> 03:29:01.040 stuff that's in it and looks great and all that, 3862 03:29:01.600 --> 03:29:03.360 but I don't know if it gets us any closer 3863 03:29:03.399 --> 03:29:07.399 than the Guccioni version in the certain ways. It's confusing 3864 03:29:07.479 --> 03:29:08.159 at times. 3865 03:29:08.639 --> 03:29:12.000 There were two of the Vidal scripts I read, but 3866 03:29:12.040 --> 03:29:14.520 Thursday there's so many, and it's not really trying to 3867 03:29:14.680 --> 03:29:17.479 deal with some weird variation between a mad lib and 3868 03:29:17.600 --> 03:29:20.559 ration on of trying to piece something like this together 3869 03:29:20.639 --> 03:29:26.440 with so many different disparate narratives, elements, weird narratives, sometimes 3870 03:29:26.520 --> 03:29:28.479 not even just out and that's not just to get 3871 03:29:28.520 --> 03:29:31.200 dealt to it just calligulan in general, it's so much 3872 03:29:31.479 --> 03:29:33.360 and Rob, I do love that you mentioned the White 3873 03:29:33.360 --> 03:29:35.639 Shots though. The White Shots, I think, and I think 3874 03:29:35.799 --> 03:29:38.040 one of the one of the biggest pluses of The 3875 03:29:38.120 --> 03:29:40.760 Ultimate Cut. It is one hundred percent a love letter 3876 03:29:40.840 --> 03:29:44.680 to Donatis sets. You could tell there is a love 3877 03:29:44.840 --> 03:29:46.680 But even in a lot of the interviews that I 3878 03:29:46.760 --> 03:29:51.440 read that with Thomas is like the Ya Dinatis mentioned 3879 03:29:51.479 --> 03:29:52.879 a lot, as he should be. 3880 03:29:53.600 --> 03:29:55.280 He's a fan of most of it, except for the 3881 03:29:55.319 --> 03:29:56.639 stuff that he replaced with CG. 3882 03:29:56.920 --> 03:30:00.959 But oh, I don't know. 3883 03:30:01.079 --> 03:30:04.200 I just Negovin strikes me as Braddy with some of 3884 03:30:04.200 --> 03:30:06.600 the stuff that he said. And I've people sending me 3885 03:30:06.680 --> 03:30:09.639 stuff like crazy. So there's just quote after quote. And 3886 03:30:09.680 --> 03:30:13.319 he even told me in our very brief Facebook conversation 3887 03:30:13.399 --> 03:30:16.600 he's just, oh, Tinto brask he's got dementia. And I 3888 03:30:16.639 --> 03:30:20.959 saw this documentary, this obscure documentary in twenty thirteen. Of 3889 03:30:20.959 --> 03:30:23.280 course I had to look it up, and I'm just like, oh, okay, 3890 03:30:23.399 --> 03:30:26.200 is Tinto Brass? Let me download this? Okay, watch it 3891 03:30:26.840 --> 03:30:31.440 all right? Yeah, Tinto seems fine. But everything that Negovin says, 3892 03:30:31.559 --> 03:30:34.639 is just I watched this documentary in twenty thirteen, and 3893 03:30:35.239 --> 03:30:37.959 it shows clearly that he has dementia. And I'm just like, 3894 03:30:38.079 --> 03:30:41.079 what documentary did you watch? Because that's not the version 3895 03:30:41.159 --> 03:30:45.959 that I saw. I saw a brass acting recounting stories, 3896 03:30:46.639 --> 03:30:51.000 very clear, very lucid. Of course that's twenty thirteen, right, 3897 03:30:51.079 --> 03:30:54.319 that's eleven years ago. But I know other people that 3898 03:30:54.360 --> 03:30:57.479 have talked to him and they're just like, Okay, that's great, 3899 03:30:57.520 --> 03:31:01.319 he's doing fine. Of course, Alexander talked with him very recently, 3900 03:31:01.440 --> 03:31:05.120 and it's not that recently because now apparently Tinto's wife 3901 03:31:05.479 --> 03:31:09.120 controls all the communications, but a few years ago when 3902 03:31:09.159 --> 03:31:12.239 this project was kicking off, and that's very different than 3903 03:31:12.280 --> 03:31:14.559 the story that Magovin tells, where he's just The first 3904 03:31:14.600 --> 03:31:16.799 thing I did was I reached out to Tinto, and 3905 03:31:16.879 --> 03:31:19.799 I tried everything that I could, and I was told 3906 03:31:19.799 --> 03:31:22.479 over a year later that he received all these things, 3907 03:31:22.520 --> 03:31:25.840 but his wife dismissed it. I was in contact with 3908 03:31:25.879 --> 03:31:28.159 her after that. She was open to the idea, but 3909 03:31:28.280 --> 03:31:30.600 I had been told and later learned from a documentary 3910 03:31:30.600 --> 03:31:33.159 on him, that he had dementia. I asked if I 3911 03:31:33.159 --> 03:31:35.920 could speak directly with Tinto. The answer was no, So 3912 03:31:36.000 --> 03:31:40.040 that's where it stalled. I couldn't encourage the rights holder 3913 03:31:40.120 --> 03:31:42.159 to send money to somebody who couldn't get on a 3914 03:31:42.159 --> 03:31:45.479 phone call. I suspect that it's partially his health, but 3915 03:31:45.600 --> 03:31:48.200 it's also likely that it is just a terrible sore 3916 03:31:48.280 --> 03:31:51.520 spot for everybody involved, which I completely agree, and Brass 3917 03:31:51.559 --> 03:31:55.200 talks about that on the Orgy Power documentary that I 3918 03:31:55.200 --> 03:31:57.600 don't know what I would do. The ship is sale, 3919 03:31:58.040 --> 03:32:01.200 but I don't know what the truth is around there. 3920 03:32:01.239 --> 03:32:04.840 I know that Michelle Levoco, Brass's lawyer at the time, 3921 03:32:05.360 --> 03:32:07.959 was saying that Tinto Brass did not participate in the 3922 03:32:08.000 --> 03:32:10.959 new version of his not made any offers. He is 3923 03:32:11.520 --> 03:32:14.639 old but very lucid, and any involvement in this new 3924 03:32:14.760 --> 03:32:19.239 edition is false. Here's Thomas Negavan from the Team Human podcast. 3925 03:32:19.440 --> 03:32:22.760 The first thing that I did was I contacted Tinto Brass, 3926 03:32:23.559 --> 03:32:27.159 and the very second person I contacted was Malcolm McDowell's manager, 3927 03:32:27.680 --> 03:32:30.879 and I said, look, I have this project on my lap. 3928 03:32:31.000 --> 03:32:33.479 I'm a tourist here. This is before I started forming 3929 03:32:33.520 --> 03:32:36.719 any opinions on anything. I said, I am a tourist here, 3930 03:32:36.760 --> 03:32:41.680 this is your art. You should dictate the course of this. 3931 03:32:41.680 --> 03:32:45.360 This is before I understood how much everyone hated each 3932 03:32:45.399 --> 03:32:48.799 other and all of this, and so it was such 3933 03:32:48.799 --> 03:32:52.680 a traumatic thing for tinto. My understanding is that that's 3934 03:32:52.719 --> 03:32:55.840 why that got ignored. I didn't hear from them until 3935 03:32:55.879 --> 03:32:59.239 like eight or nine months later, when I kept kind 3936 03:32:59.239 --> 03:33:01.799 of pummeling and people were trying to bridge that gap. 3937 03:33:02.479 --> 03:33:05.200 This is where it gets interesting for me. Why am 3938 03:33:05.239 --> 03:33:08.719 I interested in doing a third episode with you on 3939 03:33:08.760 --> 03:33:11.959 this thing? I'm going to start with this thing. This 3940 03:33:12.000 --> 03:33:13.600 is going to sound like I'm victim blaming, but I'm not. 3941 03:33:14.239 --> 03:33:16.600 And what I mean by that is that every filmmaker 3942 03:33:16.680 --> 03:33:20.639 has their own way of how they create, and I 3943 03:33:20.680 --> 03:33:23.159 feel like he was a victim of his own method. 3944 03:33:23.639 --> 03:33:27.399 On the truth, yes, because the way Alexander talks about 3945 03:33:27.680 --> 03:33:30.440 he was rolling multiple cameras, he was doing multiple takes 3946 03:33:30.520 --> 03:33:33.159 in various different ways. Like I say, when we look 3947 03:33:33.159 --> 03:33:36.719 at that ending, compare the ending of how Malcolm Max 3948 03:33:36.840 --> 03:33:41.120 versus this new version, two different characterizations. Some of the 3949 03:33:41.120 --> 03:33:44.680 other scenes within the films obviously, But the thing is 3950 03:33:44.920 --> 03:33:48.399 that's all commendable. I commend him for going you know what, 3951 03:33:48.680 --> 03:33:50.680 you know what, the most cheapest part of this entire 3952 03:33:50.719 --> 03:33:54.040 production is blow and film because blow and film in 3953 03:33:54.079 --> 03:33:57.680 that era was cheap. Film stock was cheap compared to 3954 03:33:57.719 --> 03:34:00.879 paying salaries and building those sets and all that. And 3955 03:34:00.920 --> 03:34:03.920 when I think about his process up against other filmmakers, So, 3956 03:34:03.959 --> 03:34:07.079 for example, a guy who's very controlled, Martin Scorsese. He 3957 03:34:07.120 --> 03:34:10.760 knows exactly what he's gonna get, He storyboards everything. He 3958 03:34:10.799 --> 03:34:13.440 doesn't really shoot extra coverage. Another guy like that is 3959 03:34:13.680 --> 03:34:15.639 Clinton Eastwood. He's like the king of the one take. 3960 03:34:15.680 --> 03:34:18.000 He knows exactly what he wants, he shoots exactly he wants. 3961 03:34:18.000 --> 03:34:21.719 He does not do all this coverage. And so there's 3962 03:34:21.760 --> 03:34:23.639 part of me that feels like Tinto is just a 3963 03:34:23.719 --> 03:34:27.799 victim of his own process here. And I just think 3964 03:34:27.840 --> 03:34:32.239 about how there's famous stories throughout film history. One of 3965 03:34:32.280 --> 03:34:36.319 my favorites, one of my heroes, Melvin Van Peebles, who 3966 03:34:36.879 --> 03:34:38.920 gave the finger to Columbia when they told him, Hey, 3967 03:34:38.959 --> 03:34:41.319 you're gonna shoot a different ending of Watermelon Man, Right, Oh, 3968 03:34:41.399 --> 03:34:44.200 I got it, I'm gonna shoot it. And then he 3969 03:34:44.280 --> 03:34:46.399 didn't and turns the film and they go, where's that ending, 3970 03:34:46.440 --> 03:34:48.120 and he's I'm just shooting that fucking ending. Fuck you, 3971 03:34:48.200 --> 03:34:50.920 I'm out of here and Forster Murders release the film 3972 03:34:50.959 --> 03:34:53.479 the way he wanted it. So really for me, what 3973 03:34:53.600 --> 03:34:56.319 I think why I keep coming back to Caligula, why 3974 03:34:56.319 --> 03:34:58.559 I'm so fascinated by all these various cuts, and I 3975 03:34:58.600 --> 03:35:02.440 give Thomas' credit for putting this cut together, is that 3976 03:35:03.159 --> 03:35:05.440 it ultimately comes down to the idea of like creative 3977 03:35:05.440 --> 03:35:09.680 expression within a system for filmmakers, and how do you 3978 03:35:09.760 --> 03:35:12.280 do it when there's so many things going on? Do 3979 03:35:12.319 --> 03:35:15.959 you really need to have orson wells ironclad Citizen Kane 3980 03:35:16.040 --> 03:35:19.040 contract where even Ted Turner couldn't polarize it forty years later? 3981 03:35:19.719 --> 03:35:21.959 Do you need to be so strict? Do you only 3982 03:35:22.000 --> 03:35:24.040 shoot what you shoot and get rid of everything and 3983 03:35:24.079 --> 03:35:26.360 force them to release your thing? Granted he had this 3984 03:35:26.399 --> 03:35:28.159 film taken away from him, I know that, I know 3985 03:35:28.239 --> 03:35:30.360 the history of it. Or is there somewhere in the 3986 03:35:30.360 --> 03:35:31.440 middle where you just got to go? 3987 03:35:31.520 --> 03:35:31.879 You know what? 3988 03:35:32.040 --> 03:35:34.600 This is such a big process with so many money 3989 03:35:34.600 --> 03:35:37.520 men and everybody's got their hands in it that even 3990 03:35:37.520 --> 03:35:40.639 if you try to make it your vision, I don't 3991 03:35:40.639 --> 03:35:43.639 think it's possible because there's just way too many shifts 3992 03:35:44.239 --> 03:35:45.479 in that kitchen. 3993 03:35:45.760 --> 03:35:49.440 So many big egos in there. I completely agree with 3994 03:35:49.479 --> 03:35:52.079 you as far as the way that Brass Shoots left 3995 03:35:52.159 --> 03:35:54.879 him open to this, which is a horrible thing. But 3996 03:35:55.200 --> 03:35:58.680 he said very plainly in that Orgy of Power documentary, 3997 03:35:58.680 --> 03:36:01.440 it is just like direct half the job. The other 3998 03:36:01.479 --> 03:36:03.799 half is the editing, and I do all of my 3999 03:36:03.920 --> 03:36:06.280 work in my editing. That's where I actually bring a 4000 03:36:06.319 --> 03:36:09.680 project to life, which I'm like, yeah, okay, there's a 4001 03:36:09.680 --> 03:36:12.280 great quote. I got it in here where he won 4002 03:36:12.799 --> 03:36:15.959 a lawsuit in Italy, and that's one thing that Renji 4003 03:36:16.360 --> 03:36:20.680 definitely documents all of those lawsuits. Oh my god. So 4004 03:36:20.920 --> 03:36:23.920 I think they were like twenty nine or thirty lawsuits 4005 03:36:23.959 --> 03:36:27.719 that were all around this. Oh, just crazy. And so 4006 03:36:27.840 --> 03:36:32.600 he won the lawsuit in Italy where the director's right 4007 03:36:32.760 --> 03:36:37.200 is guaranteed over the producers, and he said, I had 4008 03:36:37.239 --> 03:36:40.159 a hard time convincing the judges that I couldn't be 4009 03:36:40.280 --> 03:36:43.680 responsible for a film for which I had shot about 4010 03:36:43.719 --> 03:36:48.000 one hundred and sixty thousand meters but only four thousand 4011 03:36:48.079 --> 03:36:51.719 or forty five hundred were ultimately used. And this is 4012 03:36:51.840 --> 03:36:54.600 very prophetic what he says. One could have made so 4013 03:36:54.680 --> 03:36:57.799 many different films depending on who chose the material and 4014 03:36:57.920 --> 03:36:58.600 utilized it. 4015 03:36:59.399 --> 03:36:59.920 Oh jeez. 4016 03:37:00.200 --> 03:37:03.000 Yeah, Tito is such a fucking brilliant editor. Look at 4017 03:37:03.000 --> 03:37:06.159 any of his films. Look at Celon Kitty. That film 4018 03:37:06.239 --> 03:37:09.799 is a masterpiece. The way it is pieced together, it is, 4019 03:37:10.559 --> 03:37:12.760 it's one of them. It's a film my visit, even 4020 03:37:12.760 --> 03:37:15.680 though some of it is so unpleasant, but it's just 4021 03:37:16.120 --> 03:37:19.319 such a fucking beautiful film. Look at the how Tinto's 4022 03:37:19.360 --> 03:37:24.239 a wonderful editor. And I feel like anybody would have 4023 03:37:24.239 --> 03:37:28.280 been open though, because to being preyed upon, because GUCCIONI 4024 03:37:28.319 --> 03:37:30.600 I don't think Gucciini knew what he wanted. I think 4025 03:37:30.600 --> 03:37:33.239 he thought he knew what he wanted. With Tinto, I 4026 03:37:33.280 --> 03:37:35.280 think it's almost like he had a devil and an 4027 03:37:35.280 --> 03:37:38.600 angel on his shoulder, an art angel was like Solon Kitty. 4028 03:37:38.639 --> 03:37:42.079 It's a great film. Oh my god, cor Fitzal, Malcolm McDowell, 4029 03:37:42.520 --> 03:37:46.399 Denalo Donati, oh, FRANKL. Russellini. This guy's produced, Yeah, he 4030 03:37:46.399 --> 03:37:49.360 can produce with us. He's worked with Pasolini, Sir John Gill. 4031 03:37:49.600 --> 03:37:52.479 Just getting all of these pieces and then but then 4032 03:37:52.680 --> 03:37:55.520 the little devils. Some of these extras they're unclay looking, 4033 03:37:55.559 --> 03:37:58.559 they're not sexy, they're not pretty. We need that penthouse. 4034 03:37:58.559 --> 03:38:01.799 She and and I think he also wanted some of 4035 03:38:01.840 --> 03:38:04.399 that porno chic pie because that was the thing this 4036 03:38:04.600 --> 03:38:08.040 was like, this was about at the end, at the 4037 03:38:08.120 --> 03:38:10.799 era where people if there was ever going to be 4038 03:38:10.840 --> 03:38:13.079 a crossover, it was going to be in the late seventies. 4039 03:38:13.879 --> 03:38:16.719 And because this film started principles shooting, I believe in 4040 03:38:16.760 --> 03:38:21.159 seventy six, and you know, seventy six, seventy seven, and 4041 03:38:22.200 --> 03:38:25.879 it never happened, obviously, And granted, there are so many 4042 03:38:25.920 --> 03:38:28.959 adult films that honestly are so much better made than 4043 03:38:28.959 --> 03:38:31.239 what resulted with any version. As much as I love 4044 03:38:31.239 --> 03:38:33.520 the altimit cut, but I love the film as a whole. 4045 03:38:34.280 --> 03:38:37.520 That's not at all a mark against against Aaron or Thomas. 4046 03:38:37.840 --> 03:38:41.040 It's just like we've all said, you're trying to make 4047 03:38:41.079 --> 03:38:43.159 a puzzle out of pieces that you're missing. 4048 03:38:43.799 --> 03:38:50.159 Guccioni ultimately is responsible, and to me, he violates the 4049 03:38:50.319 --> 03:38:53.000 rule that I had when I used to run newsery, 4050 03:38:53.479 --> 03:38:55.879 what I used to hire borders and people to work with, 4051 03:38:56.280 --> 03:39:01.600 where it's higher, well, trust in your people, because if not, 4052 03:39:02.000 --> 03:39:04.280 why why are you even doing it? You may as 4053 03:39:04.319 --> 03:39:07.799 well just fucking do everything yourself. If you don't trust 4054 03:39:07.799 --> 03:39:08.840 the people that you've hired. 4055 03:39:09.440 --> 03:39:13.959 Exactly exactly. And the perversity of it all though is that. 4056 03:39:15.000 --> 03:39:19.079 And I even hate voicing this, but realistically he shouldn't 4057 03:39:19.120 --> 03:39:21.719 have tampered with it. That's not a debate. That's absolutely 4058 03:39:21.719 --> 03:39:23.719 not a for debate. Do not fuck with art, do 4059 03:39:23.840 --> 03:39:26.559 not fuck with artists, do not censor, do not tamper 4060 03:39:26.959 --> 03:39:29.440 it's it's a vital If he had left it alone, 4061 03:39:30.040 --> 03:39:32.840 it wouldn't be as infamous and famous as it is though. 4062 03:39:33.520 --> 03:39:35.920 That's the messed up thing about it, right, is Guccioi's 4063 03:39:35.920 --> 03:39:38.200 hampering with it and adding in all the hardcore and 4064 03:39:38.319 --> 03:39:42.159 having us cut. That's what played forty seconds Street. That's 4065 03:39:42.200 --> 03:39:44.840 what got all the pressed, that's what got all the publicity. 4066 03:39:45.559 --> 03:39:48.479 And that's sad, what a sad statement on our culture, 4067 03:39:48.559 --> 03:39:50.959 right that an actual, just true blue art film that 4068 03:39:50.959 --> 03:39:53.879 wouldn't get all that, And it wouldn't because a lot 4069 03:39:53.920 --> 03:39:56.680 of them didn't like I mean, people know about self 4070 03:39:56.719 --> 03:39:58.680 even reading some of the reviews of Salo and Kitty 4071 03:39:59.200 --> 03:40:03.079 or how even I read I found news articles when 4072 03:40:03.079 --> 03:40:06.639 they were making this film from the American press and 4073 03:40:07.159 --> 03:40:09.200 that at the time they didn't even know what Salon 4074 03:40:09.280 --> 03:40:12.319 Kinny was about. They were just just no respect and 4075 03:40:12.319 --> 03:40:15.840 no understanding even then. America has such we have such 4076 03:40:15.959 --> 03:40:19.040 a model history of how we regard art anyways from 4077 03:40:19.120 --> 03:40:22.760 our own artists, much less overseas artists. And that's what 4078 03:40:23.040 --> 03:40:26.200 I think. That's maybe the biggest fact that breaks my heart. 4079 03:40:26.239 --> 03:40:29.120 And I have obviously I have no proma explicit Scott. 4080 03:40:29.120 --> 03:40:31.760 I've been on several projection, but talking about explicit films, 4081 03:40:31.840 --> 03:40:34.280 I love cinema, but it's done well. I don't care 4082 03:40:34.280 --> 03:40:36.840 about the genre. But I may say said that it's 4083 03:40:36.879 --> 03:40:39.239 like if Tinto had been left alone, would as many 4084 03:40:39.239 --> 03:40:40.360 people be talking about it. 4085 03:40:40.920 --> 03:40:44.079 I feel bad for Alexander. I feel bad that Malcolm 4086 03:40:44.120 --> 03:40:46.879 McDowell called them a nerd from Czechoslovakia. 4087 03:40:47.680 --> 03:40:51.360 That's terrible. And I love Malcolm McDowell. I would give 4088 03:40:51.399 --> 03:40:55.319 him a kidney, But I don't call now Alexander in 4089 03:40:55.360 --> 03:40:57.760 your interview with him. If you're listening this, you've already 4090 03:40:57.760 --> 03:41:02.360 heard it. Yeah, brilliant. Alexander is so eloquent and so 4091 03:41:02.799 --> 03:41:08.000 intelligent and passionate researching this. I gain so much respect 4092 03:41:08.040 --> 03:41:11.239 for him and the hard work he's done, and as 4093 03:41:11.639 --> 03:41:14.000 proud as I am if any work I've done about Tinto, 4094 03:41:14.200 --> 03:41:18.159 because I love Alexander's the man on top of being 4095 03:41:18.319 --> 03:41:21.879 very talented and respective filmmaker in his own right, I 4096 03:41:21.920 --> 03:41:24.040 would be proud to be un heard from Czechoslovakia. I 4097 03:41:24.079 --> 03:41:25.959 I mean, I was like Alexander Trushynski. 4098 03:41:27.479 --> 03:41:32.200 And not to disparage journalists, rob but so many journalists 4099 03:41:32.280 --> 03:41:34.479 just take the easy way and they just quote from 4100 03:41:34.559 --> 03:41:38.520 other articles rather than doing the wrong research and just 4101 03:41:38.600 --> 03:41:42.559 even like fact checking certain articles that I've read online. 4102 03:41:42.600 --> 03:41:48.079 I've actually gone right to the right too the writers 4103 03:41:48.159 --> 03:41:51.120 and said I think you're wrong on this. There's one 4104 03:41:51.520 --> 03:41:55.040 where it was Todd Gilchrest and he took this very well, 4105 03:41:55.079 --> 03:41:58.319 and he actually did went back in his records and 4106 03:41:58.360 --> 03:42:00.760 looked and was like, no, you're right, because he wrote 4107 03:42:00.760 --> 03:42:04.120 at one point that in the two thousand and seven 4108 03:42:04.200 --> 03:42:07.520 DVD released this is the Imperial Edition, he said that 4109 03:42:07.680 --> 03:42:10.719 it was produced by Negovin, And so I went back 4110 03:42:10.760 --> 03:42:13.959 to Nathaniel Thompson as well, who actually produced that version, 4111 03:42:14.000 --> 03:42:16.559 and was just like, did Ntagovin have anything to do 4112 03:42:16.600 --> 03:42:18.280 with this? He's like no, I didn't even know who 4113 03:42:18.280 --> 03:42:20.799 that guy was until a few years ago. So I'm like, okay, 4114 03:42:21.159 --> 03:42:23.639 so we got that cleared up, which is good, But 4115 03:42:23.920 --> 03:42:26.760 just some of the things like I can't picking on 4116 03:42:26.799 --> 03:42:30.399 Negovan a little bit. He just was so pitthy about things, 4117 03:42:30.440 --> 03:42:34.200 Like he was like, well, the footage wasn't lost. The 4118 03:42:34.200 --> 03:42:37.879 footage of all this stuff, this ninety six hours wasn't 4119 03:42:38.120 --> 03:42:41.159 lost because obviously they had it for the Imperial Edition. 4120 03:42:41.799 --> 03:42:45.239 And it's like, yeah, but then they lost track of it. 4121 03:42:45.399 --> 03:42:50.079 Nathaniel Thompson knew where it was, and eventually Alexander was 4122 03:42:50.120 --> 03:42:52.079 able to talk with him, and then was able to 4123 03:42:52.120 --> 03:42:54.239 talk with Penthouse, able to talk to Kelly and say, 4124 03:42:54.280 --> 03:42:57.040 this is where that footage is, and they were able 4125 03:42:57.079 --> 03:43:00.520 to get it from that Iron Mountain facility. Govan is 4126 03:43:00.559 --> 03:43:03.120 just like, well, did you see the stuff? Did you 4127 03:43:03.239 --> 03:43:07.879 see the boxes? You know, this is an interesting, dramatic story. 4128 03:43:07.920 --> 03:43:10.879 He says, I absolutely believe that's what the owner of 4129 03:43:10.920 --> 03:43:13.600 Penhouse at the time told and he won't even say 4130 03:43:13.639 --> 03:43:17.639 Tushinsky's name told Alexander. If you think about how high 4131 03:43:17.799 --> 03:43:20.680 end storage facilities work with companies that have a public 4132 03:43:20.719 --> 03:43:23.680 phone number, you might see some cracks in that story. 4133 03:43:23.719 --> 03:43:26.079 And I'm just like, oh wow, so now you're calling 4134 03:43:26.120 --> 03:43:28.639 Alexander a liar. That's great. 4135 03:43:29.040 --> 03:43:32.840 It's a good marketing angle to play the hero. But 4136 03:43:33.319 --> 03:43:36.000 the thing that I'm hung up on in the marketing 4137 03:43:36.040 --> 03:43:38.079 around that is one hundred percent new footage. I don't 4138 03:43:38.159 --> 03:43:40.639 fucking care. No, that it's one hundred percent new footage 4139 03:43:40.719 --> 03:43:43.479 doesn't mean anything to me. The question is is does 4140 03:43:43.520 --> 03:43:46.079 it make sense within the story you're trying to tell 4141 03:43:46.280 --> 03:43:50.360 and does it comport it to what the filmmaker's intent was. 4142 03:43:50.520 --> 03:43:52.479 That's all that matters to me. I mean, like I said, 4143 03:43:52.559 --> 03:43:55.239 Touch of Evil, as far as I know, might have 4144 03:43:55.239 --> 03:43:55.840 some new footage. 4145 03:43:55.840 --> 03:43:56.079 I don't. 4146 03:43:56.120 --> 03:43:58.159 I don't have to go back and rewatch the versions. 4147 03:43:58.200 --> 03:44:01.479 But guess what you know, Touch of Well, it's completely different, 4148 03:44:01.600 --> 03:44:05.639 everything from different angle. It's like, and you're not exciting 4149 03:44:05.879 --> 03:44:07.440 to me like that? What does that mean? 4150 03:44:07.879 --> 03:44:09.079 I don't know what that means. 4151 03:44:09.520 --> 03:44:12.680 I use the right shots. I'm okay if you recycle 4152 03:44:12.760 --> 03:44:16.280 stuff from the Guccio and A version, so I'm fine 4153 03:44:16.440 --> 03:44:20.639 if you have a mixture. Prayer to the fan edit 4154 03:44:20.680 --> 03:44:23.760 gods as well as to the powers that be. I 4155 03:44:23.799 --> 03:44:26.120 hope this isn't the ultimate cut. I hope that this 4156 03:44:26.280 --> 03:44:28.959 isn't the last time we hear about this, because I 4157 03:44:28.959 --> 03:44:31.920 would really like to still see. But then I hear, 4158 03:44:32.000 --> 03:44:34.319 I hear all these spurious rumors about Nagov, and I'm 4159 03:44:34.360 --> 03:44:36.520 not going to repeat any of them here, but I'm 4160 03:44:36.600 --> 03:44:40.239 just I hope that bringing the restoration process that all 4161 03:44:40.239 --> 03:44:43.799 of those materials were kept and kept in really good condition. 4162 03:44:44.399 --> 03:44:44.600 You know. 4163 03:44:44.639 --> 03:44:47.319 I hope they didn't do something silly like let's just 4164 03:44:47.360 --> 03:44:50.120 go ahead and open up these all these audio cans 4165 03:44:50.200 --> 03:44:54.200 just to have the the actual materials fall apart. You know. 4166 03:44:54.280 --> 03:44:57.200 We're just like, it's so delicate. The film restoration is 4167 03:44:57.239 --> 03:44:59.239 such a delicate art. We've talked about that for over 4168 03:44:59.239 --> 03:45:02.399 the last how long has this podcast been going thirteen years, 4169 03:45:02.399 --> 03:45:04.440 We've been talking about that over the last thirteen years 4170 03:45:04.440 --> 03:45:06.879 of just how delicate film is and how film needs 4171 03:45:06.920 --> 03:45:10.000 to be handled properly and restored. So I just hope 4172 03:45:10.000 --> 03:45:14.040 that during this restoration process that that stuff was kept 4173 03:45:14.079 --> 03:45:17.200 safe and that there is an opportunity if we do 4174 03:45:17.319 --> 03:45:21.000 want to try and again with a version that is 4175 03:45:21.040 --> 03:45:23.639 closer to tinto Brass, that we can do that. 4176 03:45:24.559 --> 03:45:29.200 And part of me is concerned that Penas, whoever runs 4177 03:45:29.239 --> 03:45:32.399 it now, doesn't give a shit about keeping all of 4178 03:45:32.440 --> 03:45:36.200 the outtakes in ninety plus hours, because that takes up 4179 03:45:36.239 --> 03:45:39.600 a lot of space and respecial facility that can hold 4180 03:45:39.639 --> 03:45:41.799 all that oh in the catalog it and to hold 4181 03:45:41.840 --> 03:45:44.959 it for years, and then you have tragedies like the 4182 03:45:45.040 --> 03:45:47.959 Universal Fire fifteen years ago, where there was all these 4183 03:45:48.399 --> 03:45:52.200 original master recordings. They're gone. You can't remix that, and 4184 03:45:52.239 --> 03:45:55.079 you might be able to in the AI world, but 4185 03:45:55.280 --> 03:45:58.719 still you can't go back to the original digital magnetic 4186 03:45:58.760 --> 03:46:00.280 masters of things that we're twenty yars ago. 4187 03:46:01.399 --> 03:46:04.200 I know all three of us are definitely great in 4188 03:46:04.280 --> 03:46:06.959 anybody listening to this. Obviously your film Lover Too, Press 4189 03:46:07.079 --> 03:46:11.280 is so important and so key, especially because film is 4190 03:46:11.319 --> 03:46:14.559 such an infant format or other types of art, not 4191 03:46:14.760 --> 03:46:17.760 just silent films. But when I was researching Michael Finlay 4192 03:46:17.959 --> 03:46:20.840 is one of my tours. He's got lost films in 4193 03:46:20.879 --> 03:46:25.559 the sevenies like that, not long ago. It's heartbreaking. 4194 03:46:26.280 --> 03:46:29.719 Well, I just recently heard about this biopic on gor 4195 03:46:29.840 --> 03:46:33.319 Vi Dal that sounds like it's lost. 4196 03:46:33.879 --> 03:46:36.600 Some of it is deliberable, like what is there the 4197 03:46:37.479 --> 03:46:42.120 uh yeah, there's the back Girl movie. Like they just 4198 03:46:42.159 --> 03:46:44.040 create things to destroy them so that they can tew 4199 03:46:44.079 --> 03:46:49.000 a tags right off. Yeah sure, yeah, But like I said, 4200 03:46:49.000 --> 03:46:52.479 one of my degrees, I got a graduate certificate in 4201 03:46:52.920 --> 03:46:56.840 archival administration. And even before it's probably because I watched 4202 03:46:56.920 --> 03:46:59.319 Bucking Indiana Jones too many times when I was a kid. 4203 03:46:59.639 --> 03:47:02.959 But it belongs in a museum, Like I honestly have 4204 03:47:03.120 --> 03:47:06.200 this feeling there's so much stuff we're going to end 4205 03:47:06.319 --> 03:47:09.479 up hundreds of years from now. It's all we won't 4206 03:47:09.479 --> 03:47:12.440 be alive, but are will continue and once of our 4207 03:47:12.440 --> 03:47:16.280 culture because we don't care enough because it costs too much. 4208 03:47:16.920 --> 03:47:18.920 That's why it's important to fight the good fight. And 4209 03:47:19.239 --> 03:47:21.680 I think that's actually like something they're doing a podcast 4210 03:47:21.760 --> 03:47:24.000 as part of that, because you're keeping it fresh in 4211 03:47:24.040 --> 03:47:26.760 people's lines. If people aren't informed about stuff that have 4212 03:47:26.840 --> 03:47:29.319 they can how can they know? Like this is something 4213 03:47:29.319 --> 03:47:31.879 we need to preserve, and that's why I think it's cool. 4214 03:47:31.879 --> 03:47:34.200 But talking about the different cuts of this film, that's 4215 03:47:34.200 --> 03:47:36.319 why I hope all of the materials are preserved. I'm 4216 03:47:36.319 --> 03:47:38.840 glad we have this cut. I'm glad we have the 4217 03:47:39.200 --> 03:47:42.639 GUCCIONI cut. For for all of its flaws, there's still 4218 03:47:42.680 --> 03:47:45.440 some there's great stuff. There's great stuff in all of them. 4219 03:47:46.200 --> 03:47:49.000 I wish there was a meeting of the middle. It's 4220 03:47:49.159 --> 03:47:52.840 part of me wishes we had that too, because man 4221 03:47:52.959 --> 03:47:55.399 like getting to hear Teresa's voice, getting to see more 4222 03:47:55.399 --> 03:47:58.920 of the performances, not having to see seeing sex scenes 4223 03:47:58.920 --> 03:48:02.239 that were far worse than when Kurchie up and he 4224 03:48:02.319 --> 03:48:04.719 did it to some give him fate praise on that 4225 03:48:05.479 --> 03:48:07.879 It's the Faint as a praise that shit didn't belong 4226 03:48:08.040 --> 03:48:10.840 and especially reading about the credit Laurie Wagner, he and 4227 03:48:10.920 --> 03:48:14.799 the girls use egg whites to look like they were excited, 4228 03:48:15.440 --> 03:48:18.079 which I don't think is very sanitary to put in 4229 03:48:18.120 --> 03:48:19.920 another's It seems like a very good way to get 4230 03:48:19.920 --> 03:48:23.319 an East infection. So say, everybody's learning from this point, 4231 03:48:23.479 --> 03:48:27.680 don't preserve a film and do not on another's. But seriously, 4232 03:48:27.840 --> 03:48:30.440 I hope to God that they preserved a tune, especially 4233 03:48:30.440 --> 03:48:33.840 because a lot of companies anything that the corporation automatically 4234 03:48:33.879 --> 03:48:37.760 does not have the best futation when it comes to 4235 03:48:37.879 --> 03:48:41.520 film preservation. It's honestly amazing that we even have this 4236 03:48:41.719 --> 03:48:44.879 or that even Mission Colligula goten as far as it did, 4237 03:48:44.920 --> 03:48:47.120 and that was thanks to Kelly for them having a 4238 03:48:47.159 --> 03:48:48.639 CEO at the time that actually seemed to give a 4239 03:48:48.639 --> 03:48:50.920 shit about art. It's cool, I don't know, it's cool 4240 03:48:50.959 --> 03:48:53.680 to have the variations of it. I mean, so, I 4241 03:48:53.680 --> 03:48:55.920 do think the minute Tinto got pushed out of that 4242 03:48:56.000 --> 03:48:59.479 film is the minute realistically we lost the chance to version. 4243 03:49:00.239 --> 03:49:03.799 You can't go back like lots wise, at this far back, 4244 03:49:03.959 --> 03:49:06.479 I'll just get me a little piles of salt. So 4245 03:49:07.399 --> 03:49:09.920 I don't know it does. I think, to me, what 4246 03:49:10.000 --> 03:49:13.120 makes me sad is just all the people that have 4247 03:49:13.200 --> 03:49:15.920 been hurt by this film now, and I want to 4248 03:49:15.920 --> 03:49:17.360 say the phil I don't mean just the old bit cut. 4249 03:49:17.360 --> 03:49:20.799 I just mean this whole thing, and I am but 4250 03:49:20.959 --> 03:49:23.040 I'm glad at least with those who are still with 4251 03:49:23.120 --> 03:49:27.120 us we can still hail them. Don't write off Alexander Trushynsky. 4252 03:49:27.399 --> 03:49:29.879 Don't necessarily write off the Ultimate Cut either, Like, don't 4253 03:49:29.879 --> 03:49:33.079 write off anybody. Give everybody, but especially get people like 4254 03:49:33.159 --> 03:49:36.239 alex Give regime because he did all that work. Thank 4255 03:49:36.280 --> 03:49:40.760 God for his website, which is an exhaustive tribute and 4256 03:49:40.959 --> 03:49:45.920 so exquisitely researched perfectly, and to tinto who I feel like, 4257 03:49:46.360 --> 03:49:48.760 even stuff I've still written about this film now, about 4258 03:49:48.760 --> 03:49:51.319 this particular cut I feel like still gets disparaged, and 4259 03:49:51.360 --> 03:49:54.040 I think that's out of bullshit. All of the beauty, 4260 03:49:54.120 --> 03:49:55.920 all of the good stuff in here is because of 4261 03:49:56.120 --> 03:49:58.760 having a director that had that vision and that had 4262 03:49:58.760 --> 03:50:01.000 faith in his performers, and that's why all of the 4263 03:50:01.040 --> 03:50:03.760 actors loved Tinto. I mean, Seiner would have been multiple times. 4264 03:50:03.840 --> 03:50:05.280 Malcolm mcdale got along with him. 4265 03:50:05.319 --> 03:50:05.520 Great. 4266 03:50:05.639 --> 03:50:09.680 Helen Mirren in that twenty thirteen documentary goes on camera 4267 03:50:09.760 --> 03:50:13.360 and rapes about him and Tinta his wife, and honestly, 4268 03:50:13.440 --> 03:50:17.200 is Tinto Bread's a documentary. It's hit or miss, but yeah, 4269 03:50:17.239 --> 03:50:19.840 he's he seems loose to He seemed lucid to me. 4270 03:50:20.360 --> 03:50:23.159 I had some narrative problems with some event documentary because 4271 03:50:23.159 --> 03:50:24.440 I felt like it leaned. Part of it leanked a 4272 03:50:24.440 --> 03:50:27.319 little too heavy to the persona if that document didn't 4273 03:50:27.360 --> 03:50:29.559 know what side of the bread it wanted butter because 4274 03:50:29.559 --> 03:50:32.159 you'd have these great interviews with people and these great 4275 03:50:32.159 --> 03:50:34.440 shots of some of his like really experimental stuff from 4276 03:50:34.440 --> 03:50:36.479 the sixties that was so cool to have because a 4277 03:50:36.520 --> 03:50:39.799 lot of that defined for Americans, and you're like, yeah, 4278 03:50:39.840 --> 03:50:42.079 that's cool. And then it's like there's Tinto with his 4279 03:50:42.159 --> 03:50:46.399 hand on some girl's ass smoking a cigar, and it's like, wait, what, like, 4280 03:50:47.319 --> 03:50:48.120 come on movie? 4281 03:50:48.600 --> 03:50:51.959 They turned it into the South of the Equator version 4282 03:50:51.959 --> 03:50:53.360 of a Rushmeyer documentary. 4283 03:50:54.920 --> 03:50:57.760 Yes. I reached out to Nico b Over at cult 4284 03:50:57.799 --> 03:51:00.799 EPX and was asking him because I would love to 4285 03:51:00.879 --> 03:51:05.079 see what is a Vacation and drop out those two films. 4286 03:51:04.639 --> 03:51:08.120 With They've looked incredible. I love to see you with 4287 03:51:08.159 --> 03:51:12.120 Vanessa Redgrave and Franco and Nero. Yeah, they look so good. 4288 03:51:12.200 --> 03:51:14.200 I would love to see those too. Yeah, Nico would 4289 03:51:14.200 --> 03:51:16.520 do He's done such a great job with so many 4290 03:51:16.559 --> 03:51:18.799 of Tito's films too. I would love to see him 4291 03:51:19.479 --> 03:51:22.159 do that. Nico Bee is so cool. We have a 4292 03:51:22.200 --> 03:51:25.799 lot of love for that company, and they've We've. 4293 03:51:25.639 --> 03:51:28.600 Got a brand new version of Cheeky that's coming out 4294 03:51:28.920 --> 03:51:31.680 within the next few months, and he said that in 4295 03:51:31.760 --> 03:51:35.040 twenty twenty five they're going to have restorations of the 4296 03:51:35.120 --> 03:51:41.920 Key Action and Yankee and unfortunately no Dropout or lav 4297 03:51:41.959 --> 03:51:44.559 A Conza. So I was really open for those because 4298 03:51:44.600 --> 03:51:49.040 you can find those in real shitty versions with no subtitles, 4299 03:51:49.600 --> 03:51:52.000 all dubbed Italian, which doesn't make a whole lot of 4300 03:51:52.040 --> 03:51:54.840 sense because I don't think Vanessa Redgrave's speaking Italian, and 4301 03:51:54.920 --> 03:51:57.559 I think since they shot those in England that Narro 4302 03:51:57.799 --> 03:52:00.120 was probably speaking English as well. Because we know we. 4303 03:52:00.120 --> 03:52:02.920 Can do it yeah, no, his English is fine. God, 4304 03:52:02.920 --> 03:52:03.639 that would be great. 4305 03:52:03.760 --> 03:52:04.040 I am. 4306 03:52:04.079 --> 03:52:05.920 I am looking forward to having like the Key, and 4307 03:52:06.000 --> 03:52:08.600 especially because my copy of actions. I have a DVD 4308 03:52:08.719 --> 03:52:10.760 of it and it's all right, but seeing the cold 4309 03:52:10.799 --> 03:52:14.520 Epics treatment, that'll be a that'll be a butt for sure. 4310 03:52:15.440 --> 03:52:17.280 I think I wanted to do The Howl next year. 4311 03:52:18.120 --> 03:52:19.760 I love the how that was what would be? That 4312 03:52:19.840 --> 03:52:23.079 was the first Tinto film I ever wrote about years ago, 4313 03:52:23.239 --> 03:52:25.680 I don't I can't remember if the editor then it 4314 03:52:26.680 --> 03:52:29.079 was a lot of time ago. Sometimes we'd use messed 4315 03:52:29.120 --> 03:52:31.120 up and sometimes he wouldn't, and that tell me. But 4316 03:52:31.280 --> 03:52:35.040 still setting contributor copies. It was very, very weird. It's 4317 03:52:35.079 --> 03:52:39.040 sort of like a ancestor to the Panic movement. Maybe 4318 03:52:39.040 --> 03:52:41.040 that's just me and my own crist is that I 4319 03:52:41.079 --> 03:52:43.399 really felly get some sort of spiritual ancestor to some 4320 03:52:43.479 --> 03:52:45.840 of the early works of Potoow Skin a Ball. It's 4321 03:52:45.840 --> 03:52:48.239 got that energy to it. I mean, it's still in 4322 03:52:48.600 --> 03:52:50.639 a very teinto way, but it's it's brilliant. 4323 03:52:50.719 --> 03:52:53.959 It's com I've seen the greatest films of my generation. 4324 03:52:54.319 --> 03:52:57.680 Disembowl No, sorry that wrong? 4325 03:52:57.760 --> 03:52:58.959 How right? 4326 03:52:59.040 --> 03:52:59.440 Yeah? 4327 03:52:59.559 --> 03:53:06.319 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear his biopiccre shell too. 4328 03:53:08.879 --> 03:53:11.000 Mine, Yes, and nobody. 4329 03:53:10.680 --> 03:53:13.879 Wants, but that's good to hear at least, and that's 4330 03:53:13.920 --> 03:53:17.799 maybe a good silver lighting. And in the sadness, we 4331 03:53:17.920 --> 03:53:21.120 still get fruition. We still get to compleate teeth of 4332 03:53:21.159 --> 03:53:24.200 films that weren't tampered with a bum coucierty out there 4333 03:53:24.200 --> 03:53:27.520 hopefully went more. Hopefully some you know, cult up with stuff. 4334 03:53:27.520 --> 03:53:31.760 Maybe somebody else could get a hold and do restorations 4335 03:53:31.799 --> 03:53:35.120 proper for the vacanza and yeah, all of that make 4336 03:53:35.159 --> 03:53:37.520 it maybe a cute little set, you know, because I 4337 03:53:37.559 --> 03:53:40.280 mean both of them, you know, Vanessa Redgrave and Frank 4338 03:53:40.319 --> 03:53:43.319 of Nero. What a fascinating couple, and like they did 4339 03:53:43.360 --> 03:53:47.479 these two films with tintos like so so needs. 4340 03:53:47.440 --> 03:53:52.239 Redcraf is still live, right, red Grave and Nero are 4341 03:53:52.719 --> 03:53:55.319 still alive and still married, I guess. 4342 03:53:55.319 --> 03:53:58.799 Which is amazing that that's something. I call it the 4343 03:53:59.000 --> 03:54:01.239 Tall Man. That's a little tribute to fantasts. 4344 03:54:02.879 --> 03:54:05.879 I thought it was to Jeff Goldbloom, but oh no, 4345 03:54:06.159 --> 03:54:06.959 the tall guy. 4346 03:54:07.319 --> 03:54:11.239 That's the tall guy. I mean, that's cool. He's now 4347 03:54:11.360 --> 03:54:16.239 angus sums. I love that we have that. And if anything, 4348 03:54:16.319 --> 03:54:21.040 this is kind of a cool, like hardcore film person likes. 4349 03:54:21.639 --> 03:54:23.959 I do like the fact that we have they have 4350 03:54:24.120 --> 03:54:28.120 different versions at hand, because the Imperial I mean, the 4351 03:54:28.120 --> 03:54:30.760 Gucci already cut and the Girl Dish are very easy fine, 4352 03:54:30.840 --> 03:54:34.120 like these are not. Yeah, and so if somebody wants 4353 03:54:34.239 --> 03:54:35.760 to do a comparison, they can. 4354 03:54:36.760 --> 03:54:38.719 That's the thing I like about the box set that 4355 03:54:38.760 --> 03:54:40.799 you're coming out on, is the whole idea of having 4356 03:54:40.879 --> 03:54:43.040 these multiple versions. Yeah, Rob and I have talked about 4357 03:54:43.040 --> 03:54:46.159 this multiple times as far as like, what do I 4358 03:54:46.200 --> 03:54:49.000 love about Blade Runner. I can watch the version I like. 4359 03:54:49.399 --> 03:54:52.000 Rob can watch the version he likes. You can watch 4360 03:54:52.079 --> 03:54:55.159 the version you like. We all have it. They are 4361 03:54:55.200 --> 03:54:58.399 still out there, they are preserved. So yes, great, here's 4362 03:54:58.440 --> 03:55:01.799 this caligulous set with all of these different versions. We 4363 03:55:01.959 --> 03:55:04.600 are not limited in our choice. I just wish there 4364 03:55:04.680 --> 03:55:07.280 was one more that had Kushinsky's name on it. But 4365 03:55:07.399 --> 03:55:10.760 at the same time, at least where they're not saying, 4366 03:55:10.799 --> 03:55:13.680 well that version doesn't exist anymore, you can never see that. 4367 03:55:14.040 --> 03:55:17.399 So yeah, we'll be talking even more about that later 4368 03:55:17.440 --> 03:55:20.239 on this year. I know that my friend Peter Flynn 4369 03:55:20.280 --> 03:55:23.680 is working on a documentary about lost versions of Star Wars. 4370 03:55:23.879 --> 03:55:27.000 So those are the ones that you talked about film mode. 4371 03:55:27.280 --> 03:55:30.639 You know, this is being suppressed by the artist and 4372 03:55:30.719 --> 03:55:33.079 the company that owns the rights now. 4373 03:55:33.239 --> 03:55:36.000 So so I'm going to ask everyone right now to 4374 03:55:36.000 --> 03:55:39.479 put on their calendar twenty thirty join us back for 4375 03:55:39.600 --> 03:55:43.319 episode four of Caligula with the Alexander. 4376 03:55:43.799 --> 03:55:45.479 That would be amazing, See you. 4377 03:55:45.440 --> 03:55:48.639 Wouldn't that be great. I don't know if he can 4378 03:55:48.719 --> 03:55:51.760 do it, just because his heart was probably broken, you know, 4379 03:55:52.680 --> 03:55:56.079 I imagine being in that position. We were so hopeful 4380 03:55:56.159 --> 03:55:58.920 we that Mission Colorgular episode. We were just like, this 4381 03:55:59.239 --> 03:56:00.360 gotta be right. 4382 03:56:01.079 --> 03:56:04.399 Anytimes somebody has their heart broken with some creative project 4383 03:56:04.520 --> 03:56:07.319 that they've worked so hard on, that's the kind of 4384 03:56:07.360 --> 03:56:11.040 loss that hits me. That haunts me all those when 4385 03:56:11.040 --> 03:56:12.600 you're putting that much kind of work and love into 4386 03:56:12.639 --> 03:56:16.879 something that part of you that's your DNA and something 4387 03:56:16.920 --> 03:56:21.360 almost having outset interference in whatever form that's it's a 4388 03:56:21.600 --> 03:56:24.440 it's like an invasion, kind of like an invasion way. 4389 03:56:24.479 --> 03:56:26.319 I mean, that's like I think about how Danto his 4390 03:56:26.360 --> 03:56:28.000 wife's probably taken it over so he doesn't have to 4391 03:56:28.000 --> 03:56:30.520 hear it anymore. She's like, I'll block it, but he's like, 4392 03:56:30.559 --> 03:56:33.319 I'll be the I mean, yeah, because God, I mean, 4393 03:56:33.319 --> 03:56:35.239 the man sent of time, like, let him enjoy his 4394 03:56:35.280 --> 03:56:38.600 golden ears. I can't even imagine. But yeah, no, but 4395 03:56:38.680 --> 03:56:43.040 I love that Alexander has channeled everything he's gone through 4396 03:56:43.040 --> 03:56:47.079 into art. And that's what artists do. If anything, if 4397 03:56:47.079 --> 03:56:49.040 there is a positive thing to be gained from from 4398 03:56:49.079 --> 03:56:52.559 his story of this, is that to anybody, especially a creative, 4399 03:56:53.239 --> 03:56:56.440 always create. Don't let it stop. You, don't let if 4400 03:56:56.479 --> 03:56:59.280 it's like, Okay, this horrible, shitty thing has happened, your 4401 03:56:59.280 --> 03:57:02.920 heart is broken, and okay, let's make some mark. Let's 4402 03:57:03.040 --> 03:57:06.200 channel that. Don't let it fester inside you, don't repress it, 4403 03:57:06.479 --> 03:57:08.440 don't let it make you bitter, don't let it become 4404 03:57:08.479 --> 03:57:12.479 like a cancer. You know, you make art, that's what 4405 03:57:12.559 --> 03:57:14.479 you do, and that's what he did. And I love 4406 03:57:14.600 --> 03:57:17.399 that to me, just it makes me respect him even more. 4407 03:57:17.479 --> 03:57:20.120 That's what we all need to do. It's like, sometimes 4408 03:57:20.360 --> 03:57:23.000 life is getting his things and you can't know his 4409 03:57:23.079 --> 03:57:25.920 control it, and some of it hurts really fucking bad. 4410 03:57:26.559 --> 03:57:30.000 But let's go make some art. Let's go make something. 4411 03:57:30.680 --> 03:57:33.479 Let's create something, Let's preserve something, let's talk about it. 4412 03:57:33.719 --> 03:57:38.520 That's healthy. We're all healing in this beautiful mess, the 4413 03:57:38.680 --> 03:57:43.680 catg and you know, make life your own senate and 4414 03:57:43.719 --> 03:57:46.639 the people of Rome. There's my ted talk. 4415 03:57:47.399 --> 03:57:50.959 I can't imagine talking three hours is about one movie 4416 03:57:51.360 --> 03:57:53.920 when it comes to a commentary. Now, talking three hours 4417 03:57:53.959 --> 03:57:57.920 with you two or close to it, that is easy. 4418 03:57:57.959 --> 03:58:01.920 But doing a solo common terry for three freaking hours, Heather, 4419 03:58:02.520 --> 03:58:03.559 that's nuts. 4420 03:58:04.159 --> 03:58:05.719 I don't know if you guys got have gone through 4421 03:58:05.760 --> 03:58:08.040 this without X Chris. I mean, Mike you you have 4422 03:58:08.120 --> 03:58:11.639 done some commentaries any any boutique labels, like you should 4423 03:58:11.639 --> 03:58:14.040 also get Rob on some of these because Rob is 4424 03:58:14.079 --> 03:58:17.600 fucking brilliant. And I still there are lines that you've 4425 03:58:17.639 --> 03:58:19.840 said and stuff we've done. It still like Live with 4426 03:58:19.879 --> 03:58:22.520 Me with the Smoker episode. I mean, let's go back 4427 03:58:22.520 --> 03:58:24.639 to list that episode. That's a fucking I'm so I 4428 03:58:24.920 --> 03:58:26.879 still wa it ever that I've been a part of. 4429 03:58:27.639 --> 03:58:31.239 But it was hard, and I think the hardest part 4430 03:58:31.479 --> 03:58:36.040 was trying to not sound like the micro machine but 4431 03:58:36.159 --> 03:58:38.079 also keep it because I was trying to keep like 4432 03:58:38.159 --> 03:58:41.840 things in a natural because I want to be conversational 4433 03:58:41.959 --> 03:58:45.000 anything I do. I told you guys that in text prior, 4434 03:58:45.680 --> 03:58:47.639 but even like with my writing because I feel like. 4435 03:58:47.639 --> 03:58:48.879 If you talk at people. 4436 03:58:49.239 --> 03:58:51.319 If you write at them, you're not writing with them, 4437 03:58:51.840 --> 03:58:55.079 then you're gonna risk of being condescending and talking down. 4438 03:58:55.200 --> 03:58:58.040 And I hate that. My favorite writers write with you 4439 03:58:58.760 --> 03:59:00.920 and sometimes make you do the work because of it. 4440 03:59:00.959 --> 03:59:02.479 But it's a sign of love and it's a sign 4441 03:59:02.479 --> 03:59:08.040 of respect. It was definitely the most challenging commentary I've 4442 03:59:08.079 --> 03:59:10.799 ever done, and there were still things that got left 4443 03:59:10.799 --> 03:59:15.239 out because I really wanted to make it rash here. 4444 03:59:15.360 --> 03:59:16.879 You don't just want to be repeating the same shit 4445 03:59:16.959 --> 03:59:19.399 other people, but there's so much which already out there 4446 03:59:19.399 --> 03:59:22.200 about it. But also do things. Here's something where I 4447 03:59:22.200 --> 03:59:25.719 could point out that Thomas and Aaron did that's different here, 4448 03:59:25.760 --> 03:59:27.600 and I did that, and I go into their backgrounds 4449 03:59:27.639 --> 03:59:30.799 a little bit. Then it's like, this is how Egyptian 4450 03:59:30.959 --> 03:59:35.200 religion was treated when Caligula was emperor because the temple advice, 4451 03:59:35.319 --> 03:59:38.040 that whole thing in the movie that was at least 4452 03:59:38.079 --> 03:59:40.559 according as Legitius is any history books are right because 4453 03:59:40.559 --> 03:59:43.639 of the whole ventory thing, like it was outlawed until 4454 03:59:43.680 --> 03:59:47.319 he became emperor and he made it legal. So and 4455 03:59:47.319 --> 03:59:48.719 in fact there were moves that like go on in 4456 03:59:48.719 --> 03:59:52.120 Cologulis Ran. It made him initially very popular because there 4457 03:59:52.120 --> 03:59:54.399 were some some a lot of rulings that Tiberius had 4458 03:59:54.399 --> 03:59:56.639 done but did not like. Yeah, I'm so trying to 4459 03:59:56.680 --> 03:59:58.479 do that. Also give credit to a lot of the 4460 03:59:58.520 --> 04:00:02.479 actors that I don't get, like Teresa, like even some 4461 04:00:02.559 --> 04:00:05.280 of the everybody's been very sweet, like when you read 4462 04:00:05.360 --> 04:00:08.559 from the other main actors, but even they sound sometimes 4463 04:00:08.600 --> 04:00:11.479 sound a little dismissive. And I'm like, she held her own, like, 4464 04:00:11.559 --> 04:00:13.479 let's give her some part, and she did not do 4465 04:00:13.559 --> 04:00:16.319 that much after this movie, and she died kind of 4466 04:00:16.799 --> 04:00:20.200 very early. Yeah, definitely an interesting actress. I think she's 4467 04:00:20.239 --> 04:00:21.600 a lot better than people give a credit for. I 4468 04:00:21.639 --> 04:00:24.479 thought she was great in Salon Kitty too. I always 4469 04:00:24.520 --> 04:00:27.120 try to uncover layers that others looked at with any 4470 04:00:27.200 --> 04:00:29.200 kind of film research. So I hope I did that 4471 04:00:29.879 --> 04:00:31.000 and didn't and hopefully. 4472 04:00:30.719 --> 04:00:31.000 To this. 4473 04:00:32.600 --> 04:00:36.200 Oh my god, okay, go CHERI. Yeah, that's how it 4474 04:00:36.280 --> 04:00:39.000 felt in my head. It felt like a bear and 4475 04:00:38.639 --> 04:00:43.920 felt like a race. Hopefully kept the cool on the outside. 4476 04:00:44.559 --> 04:00:47.120 Thank you, Heather, Thank you Rob. Thanks both of you 4477 04:00:47.159 --> 04:00:51.680 for joining me on this third revisitation to Calligula. So yeah, 4478 04:00:52.000 --> 04:00:54.120 like you said, Rob, maybe in a few years we'll 4479 04:00:54.559 --> 04:00:58.639 meet again and talk about Little Boots. So until then, Heather, 4480 04:00:58.840 --> 04:01:00.479 what else are you working on these days? 4481 04:01:01.399 --> 04:01:03.639 No more caligular For now, I will take a moment 4482 04:01:03.639 --> 04:01:06.840 to plug by Patreon. That's at patreon dot com. Mondoheather. 4483 04:01:07.200 --> 04:01:12.360 I recently covered the Japanese Evil Dead, which I recommend. 4484 04:01:12.600 --> 04:01:14.399 I am currently working out a new piece for the 4485 04:01:14.520 --> 04:01:17.319 Patreon where I'm going to be. I'm currently writing about 4486 04:01:17.319 --> 04:01:19.680 Alfred Soul's Tanya's Islands. 4487 04:01:19.719 --> 04:01:21.360 Oh yeah, that's a classic. 4488 04:01:22.440 --> 04:01:25.319 Yeah in some ways, but I love Alfred Soul and 4489 04:01:25.360 --> 04:01:28.840 I think his career, his whole career, deserves an article. 4490 04:01:28.840 --> 04:01:30.280 And maybe that's for the future. 4491 04:01:30.719 --> 04:01:32.959 I don't know if this project is still happening, but 4492 04:01:33.000 --> 04:01:34.520 if you go back and you listen to some of 4493 04:01:34.520 --> 04:01:38.520 those episodes that Ashley West was on April, we're working 4494 04:01:38.600 --> 04:01:41.639 on a movie about or a series I should say 4495 04:01:41.639 --> 04:01:47.079 about Soul, and it was focused really around deep Sleep, 4496 04:01:47.319 --> 04:01:50.639 but there were other things in there as well, So yeah, 4497 04:01:50.680 --> 04:01:52.840 exciting stuff. I know your dog's excited. 4498 04:01:53.680 --> 04:01:56.000 Listen to him. He's like me, we'd love yeah Soul, 4499 04:01:56.079 --> 04:01:59.760 we love not Realita retword but but no some boroking 4500 04:01:59.799 --> 04:02:03.360 on that at of course, A seconds fight are finally 4501 04:02:03.440 --> 04:02:09.200 getting to release the beautiful restoration set of The Hitcher, 4502 04:02:09.520 --> 04:02:12.239 and I have an essay on that release, which is 4503 04:02:12.680 --> 04:02:17.079 something I'm massively excited about and something that I'm very 4504 04:02:17.120 --> 04:02:20.239 excited that is available for pre order and through Saturn's 4505 04:02:20.280 --> 04:02:23.719 Core is Our World Is Drowning and Growing to Hell, 4506 04:02:24.000 --> 04:02:28.239 which is a compilation of this underground director named Richard Baylor, 4507 04:02:28.360 --> 04:02:31.879 who was an American director that moved to England, Ipswich 4508 04:02:31.959 --> 04:02:35.719 in particular, and made in might you know some of 4509 04:02:35.799 --> 04:02:43.479 the most evocative and just completely unique underground cinema. They're 4510 04:02:43.639 --> 04:02:46.360 very dark here, you know, a lot of it's very 4511 04:02:46.440 --> 04:02:49.120 horror jacent, but they all have a very light punk flavor. 4512 04:02:49.280 --> 04:02:51.600 And he has such a great eye. He gets compared 4513 04:02:51.639 --> 04:02:54.639 to cinema of transgression. I shouldn't think he's better than 4514 04:02:54.680 --> 04:02:58.239 a lot of uh, but he's just different. It's an 4515 04:02:58.280 --> 04:03:00.520 easy thing to invoke, I think, with underground cinema all 4516 04:03:00.520 --> 04:03:05.159 but it's like not everything cinema transgressions. But Richard Baylor 4517 04:03:05.239 --> 04:03:07.440 is amazing. And I do a commentary as well as 4518 04:03:07.520 --> 04:03:12.520 contributed an essay for that Everything Else Linktrede dot Com, 4519 04:03:12.559 --> 04:03:14.840 Forward Slash Mondo Hoover and. 4520 04:03:14.799 --> 04:03:16.479 Rob how about yourself. What have you been up to. 4521 04:03:16.920 --> 04:03:20.600 I've been notoriously lazy. I've just written a script and 4522 04:03:21.159 --> 04:03:23.920 been working on some mating projects for myself. But I've 4523 04:03:23.920 --> 04:03:28.159 got nothing that anyone can interact with online because I 4524 04:03:28.399 --> 04:03:31.159 pulls up in the desert, So come find me. 4525 04:03:31.799 --> 04:03:32.760 That sounds like the Hitcher? 4526 04:03:33.959 --> 04:03:35.120 Is that a spirit walk? 4527 04:03:35.920 --> 04:03:36.360 There? You go? 4528 04:03:36.920 --> 04:03:39.559 No, it's all good, though, I said, it's it's it's 4529 04:03:39.559 --> 04:03:41.399 where I'm at right now, and that's okay. You know, 4530 04:03:41.479 --> 04:03:43.680 you have moments you're doing a lot of work in 4531 04:03:43.760 --> 04:03:45.879 somewhere you're not doing a lot, and I just don't 4532 04:03:45.920 --> 04:03:47.479 have a lot going on right now, and I'm enjoying it, 4533 04:03:47.520 --> 04:03:48.200 and that's okay. 4534 04:03:48.680 --> 04:03:51.799 And people can still buy your book All about Orbit magazine, 4535 04:03:51.840 --> 04:03:55.040 which is a fantastic read, and highly recommend it. 4536 04:03:55.079 --> 04:03:55.520 That's right. 4537 04:03:55.600 --> 04:03:57.159 And as a matter of fact, this fall will be 4538 04:03:57.239 --> 04:03:59.799 twenty five years since the end of Orbit, so that 4539 04:03:59.879 --> 04:04:00.879 was nineteen nine. 4540 04:04:00.959 --> 04:04:01.120 Cow. 4541 04:04:01.559 --> 04:04:04.440 So if if you're a detroiter and you're nostalgic and 4542 04:04:04.479 --> 04:04:08.159 you haven't checked it out, go get a copy, preferably 4543 04:04:08.200 --> 04:04:10.600 from Wayne State Breast. Don't buy it from the big store. 4544 04:04:10.600 --> 04:04:11.319 If you can help it. 4545 04:04:11.959 --> 04:04:13.680 Thank you so much, guys, for being on the show. 4546 04:04:13.719 --> 04:04:15.639 Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear 4547 04:04:15.639 --> 04:04:17.280 more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some 4548 04:04:17.319 --> 04:04:19.159 of the other shows that I work on. They are 4549 04:04:19.200 --> 04:04:22.719 all available at weirdingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially to our 4550 04:04:22.719 --> 04:04:25.559 Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit 4551 04:04:25.600 --> 04:04:29.200 patreon dot com slash Projection Booth. Every donation we get 4552 04:04:29.200 --> 04:04:31.639 helps the Projection Booth take over the world. 4553 04:04:54.120 --> 04:04:54.760 I want to. 4554 04:04:54.719 --> 04:04:59.120 See you cruel as a giant line in my big 4555 04:04:59.280 --> 04:05:08.719 bike with police sal rides and a huhred gods. 4556 04:05:10.120 --> 04:05:15.239 Looking drop dead delicious, dressed up to the night. 4557 04:05:17.319 --> 04:05:25.280 In the skins of several species, in declib as a 4558 04:05:25.440 --> 04:05:33.000 set fire to your houses and your cars. I'll be 4559 04:05:33.239 --> 04:05:37.959 dancing like a dervish vespas. 4560 04:05:41.040 --> 04:05:50.079 Is this what you have fell? Racing around. 4561 04:05:52.479 --> 04:05:54.399 Like a bike. 4562 04:05:54.760 --> 04:06:04.040 It's the ball, my clear juless, It's the fall of Rome, 4563 04:06:06.120 --> 04:06:17.840 my chula Si. I'll display you in my game show 4564 04:06:18.639 --> 04:06:20.399 on CEV. 4565 04:06:22.440 --> 04:06:28.879 Called Humanation and hipocurcy. 4566 04:06:30.120 --> 04:06:35.959 Thornorgy call dissolute and adam. 4567 04:06:38.040 --> 04:06:41.479 Every kind deviation on. 4568 04:06:42.319 --> 04:06:49.520 The man so worshed me cold down on. 4569 04:06:53.280 --> 04:06:55.520 Or Alan leash another. 4570 04:06:55.719 --> 04:07:05.280 Gemic coorizy is this watching power feels. 4571 04:07:09.200 --> 04:07:15.040 Racing around my fas like a bike. 4572 04:07:15.399 --> 04:07:20.879 It's the phone I can like Gilson. 4573 04:07:23.079 --> 04:07:59.639 It's the phone, like Gilson, My. 4574 04:07:59.680 --> 04:08:04.360 Big just a little tray, be calling on your hands 4575 04:08:04.440 --> 04:08:06.120 and waves like slaves? 4576 04:08:06.760 --> 04:08:08.239 And am I so desirable? 4577 04:08:08.399 --> 04:08:10.159 Your are so destructible? 4578 04:08:11.120 --> 04:08:21.680 Do you think his eyes ever gonna end? 4579 04:08:22.159 --> 04:08:30.600 Dance with me, Lass Burney, once you dance with me 4580 04:08:31.280 --> 04:08:34.360 while I am wires falling. 4581 04:08:37.120 --> 04:08:39.959 Like Nero. Let's make music to the. 4582 04:08:41.559 --> 04:09:01.520 D my calling the less. 4583 04:09:10.600 --> 04:09:10.920 I go. 4584 04:09:11.440 --> 04:09:20.079 You love sh