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Speaker 7: All right.
Speaker 5: Paul Godfrey, welcome back to the Jay Burton Show. How
are you doing?
Speaker 7: I am doing fine. I mean I'm enduring unimaginable cold,
unimaginable cold weather. Today. The temperature has sunk down to
about I don't know, about ten degrees. It was about
fifty degrees two days ago. And it's very hard to
get our long hair docs and to walk outside. Even
though he's long hair's he hates the weather. So we
have to tempt him out with food in order to
have him make his business.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's always funny to see how how animals
react to snow, because I have a cat who is
at all times desperate to get out, but for some reason,
snow is extra attractive, and so I've been forced to
turn every entrance in an exit to the house into
sort of like a fortress, right to try and keep
this this scoopid cat from running out at one hundred
miles an hour. What point is right? We're not here
to just kind of, you know, go back and forth
about you know, our animals.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 5: You wrote a very good piece for Chronicles talking about
one of my new favorite figures, Mark Levin, particularly discussing
what seems to be the preparation for another perch. I myself,
you know, written a piece on this. It seems as
if you know where instead, you know, before we just
called you know, such people as Buchanan and sober and racists.
The new term is woke right or groper's right to
people those terms do not apply, but nonetheless right it
seems that they're going for. So do you want to
introduce I guess Mark Levin maybe provide a little bit
more context for who he is because for people my age,
he sort of appeared out of nowhere and started making
a fool of himself for the for the sake of
the neo conservatives.
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's one of the most successful figures of what
I call conservatism incorporated in the United States today, and
he's made a fortune. I think he owns multiple homes
in Florida and the other Washington other airplaces, and it
is probably worth many millions of dollars as a conservative celebrity.
Now this is not unusual because you know some of
these people raking tens of millions of dollars by being
on Fox News, and then they complained about Rachel Maddow
making probably a pull through. I don't know, ten or
fifteen million dollars. I'm going to make even more. I
suspect Levin's income is probably upward of ten million dollars,
and I may be understating it. And there are certain
issues in in which he specialized. One of course, is
Israel and the alliance between American and Israeli democracy, which
means the United States should obviously pay roll the Israelis
and support the Leequwood government in Israel, no matter what
the circumstances. On most domestic issues, he's a very strong
MAGA supporter. I mean, he's always seems to be on
Trump's side, and he was extremely effective in my view
and going after the law fair that was waged against
Trump by the Democratic Party. Particularly when he talks about
legal issues, he's very good, and I assume he's a
well educated constitutional lawyer. But it's when he gets onto
other subjects that he becomes impossible. And you know, calling
anyone who disagrees with Israeli's policy and anti Semite, focusing
on people who don't agree with him, and I don't know,
on some foreign policy issue, you know, as any these
of the country or is anti Semits and so forth.
They sort of shows Mark Levinette's worse. He also has
a sort of blustering speaking style, which I think was
particularly evident in his address to the Republican Jewish Conference
in Las Vegas. And I thought that was an extremely
revealing speech because much of what I've written about the
conservative movement over the last forty years has been on
how they purge people. I was one of the victims
of an early purge, you know, back in the nineteen eighties,
and before that, there were other people that got purged,
but they never talk about this, and instead they divert
attention from this problem by attacking left wing intolerance and
left wing left wing narrow mindedness and so forth, when
in fact, the conservative movement in the United States behaves
very much like the American com and his party, did
you know, And they were prosing people in the forties
and fifties and even earlier, And it's there is very
much the same kind of mentality which I see there.
And a party line is established, typically by somebody now
who works for the Murdoch media, which embraces you know,
Fox News, the New York Post, National Review, Wall Street Journal,
and they all seem to take the same position. They
could they play at the left as using the same rhetoric,
but they do exactly the same thing. And then there
are undesirables who are never allowed into the big tent.
The big tent reaches leftward. They want they need leftist
talking partners, but they never want to have talking partners
on the deviationist right, people on the right who disagree
with them on some important issue. And those people you know,
suddenly find that they lose their jobs, they lose access
to conservative what I call cunning conservatism incorporated publications, they're
not allowed to write for them anymore. This has happened
to lots and lots of people.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 7: You can say that, you know, the job market is
not good to them, or you know, removing people from
jobs is different than per then than attacking them and
preventing them from having a livelihood. But the reality is
that once they go after, they go after you. I mean,
that was my experience. And you know, as I point out,
I took a deviationist position on Israel, or was thought
to have taken a deal. I'm not even sure I
took a divisionist position, even after forty years, but they
imagined it was, and they kept me from from academic jobs,
called up presses and told them not to publish my work,
and made sure that most most conservative magazines would not
publish me even a letter that I would send. So,
I mean, I was pretty much removed. And one of
my mistake, it seems, was I actually noticed that they
what they were doing to me. I should have simply
meekly apologized and begged them, you know, to let me
back into the club, which I didn't do. But I've
noticed many other people have suffered the same effects, and
they have. It has not just been over Israel, it's
been over an you know, any number of other issues
in which they have deviated from what has been established
as a party line. And I thought when Levin gave
this talk, it was interesting that he said, you know,
back in the nineteen eighties, we went after this bastard
so and so, and we're still going after pimple and
we're going to get more of them, you know, so
and I mean, for years I've been attacked as paranoid
for saying the same thing, you know, and he finally
admitted it. They purge people.
Speaker 5: It's an interesting thing, right, saying the quiet part out loud,
that the game worked much better when you never admitted
what you were doing. You're simply acting according to principle
instead of saying no, this is a deliberate political persecution.
It's been interesting to see him apply that same tactic.
He's developed this phrase where he goes after anti Semites, Islamisists,
and podcasters, which as a podcaster, I find somewhat funny
to be included it in that sort of company. And
you know, maybe there's a certain element of this that,
as you know, a man who has sort of made
his bones on radio, right kind of you know, going
after the new form of that. I understand that, but
to your point, right, he named several people explicitly right,
He named Joe Sobrin, he named he named Pat Buchanan.
And what's interesting is sort of immediately after that clip
came out, because it's been what six weeks now since
he said it, there was sort of this very revealing
sort of uproar on social media where a great number
of nominally right wing people under the age of forty said, no,
Pat Buchanan was right, we support him. And I thought
that was interesting because that tactic that you mentioned of,
you know, persecuting and going after dissidence, that depended on
a certain amount of monopoly control. And in a world
of AM radio and Fox News was much easier to centralize,
or is now on the Internet, I think it's a
much harder game to play now. What's been interesting to
me and I think that you mentioned this in your
piece The purge at Heritage, I think is sort of
telling because it seems to me that there is a
desire to effectively throw out anyone under a certain age
and basically say they've all they're already poisoned. You know,
the well has been poisoned. And so if we look
at both these eternal purges, you know, and also this
this kind of focus on you know, reaching out to
your nominal left. If you are interested in running a
successful place local party, why would you do that. It
seems like a self defeating mechanism.
Speaker 7: Well, it's not self defeating in terms of people making
careers for themselves. Now, this is another point that I've
made in my writing that you know, the Conservatives of
the nineteen fifties nineteen sixties were mostly very except for Buckley,
they were very poor people.
Speaker 9: You know.
Speaker 7: They, as I said an allobiography, they lived in apostolic poverty.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 7: They some of them are members of like like living
from check from retirement check to retirement check. There was
very very little benefit from being being a Conservative, very
little financial benefit or mineration. What Conservatism Incorporated has done
is to turn this into a very lucrative enterprise. So
you have people making tens of millions of dollars every year.
And part of the game is, you know, to find
to do what donors want. And you know, the average
conservative donor or the people certainly who are you know,
paying out the big bucks are mostly Zionists. They are
not social conservatives of any kind. And you know, if
they have any foreign policy, it's a neo conservative foreign policy.
And this was certainly applied to the Murdoch family, Paul
Singer Adelson's any number of these of these big donors,
Koch family, You're not really you're not really expected to
oppose gay marriage or on.
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Speaker 7: You know, be be too vocally against abortion or say,
you know, we have to put back those Confederate statues
that were torn down. I mean, it's much easier to
say what Rich Lowry said, that we should remove every
statue of Robberty Lee because he was eracist, you know,
the editor of National Review. He's certainly not going to
lose anything by saying that. Owen Ben Shapiro on I
think he was writing for town Hall on two thousand
and three. You know, he spoke about the benefit of
expelling every Israeli Palestinian because it had worked so well
when they expelled fifteen million ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe
after the Second World War. Now nothing will happen to him.
You know, if he said that blacks and wives have
different media and IQ they'd probably kick them off, you
know they are. But you know, if you know, or
if we said the same thing that blacks have, you know,
our trouble makers, get rid of them or something, obviously
would be the end of his career. But you know,
if you say, get rid of these era of these
Israeli Palestinians, that's fine because the people are giving you
money to do that. And they also hate Germans because
of the Nazis, and these are ethnic Germans, so he
can kick them out of there, even though they weren't Nazis.
You can kick them out of their homes anyhow. But
you know, you could say all kinds of about rageous
things without losing the actually about losing support from your benefactors,
and in fact gaining the support of your benefactors. But
you have to you have to sort of pick your battles,
you know, and know when to say outrageous things. So,
I mean, you know, being in the conservative movement has
you know, it's become a game, kind of professional game,
and you make a career. Somebody who was the roommate
of Rich Lowry, I mean, he told me this that
he really didn't care much about politics. He was a
big New York Yankees fan. That's all he seemed to
care about. I'm not a Yankee fan. I'm a Dodger fan,
but I'll let that go.
Speaker 6: But the.
Speaker 7: You know, he sort of made politics his business and
has always taken conventional neo conservative positions, you know, and
it's done very well financially. I mean he earns, you know,
ten or fifteen times every year what I earn as
the editor of Chronicles, so you know, he has very
rich benefactors. But you know, it's become a game. It
was not a game for Frank Meyer, Will Herberg, James Burnham,
all these other people, Kirk, all these other people in
the early conservative movement. They believe what they believed, you know,
when they went against the grain, and most of them
never made any money out of this. So conservatism incorporated
is very different.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 7: It's basically like you know, investing in the stock market
or something like that. And I think deep conviction has
very little to do why those people are there.
Speaker 5: Additionally, there's been kind of a move to sort of
blame expected electoral setbacks in twenty twenty six on the radicals.
I've got two citations for this, both of which will
be in an upcoming article on my sub stack. One
self proclaimed conservative luminary brill In Hollyhand writes articles himself,
allegedly not entirely share that he's writing them, but he
wrote an article about this saying, effectively, you know, if
we countenance these sort of people and they do what
they always do, which is find someone saying something particularly
objectionable and say everyone who disagrees with me signs on
to that statement, well, we are throwing elections away and
we need to return to electability. We need to return
to effectively a Mitt Romney figure. Have you seen this
sort of argumentation propping up you know, the idea that, look,
this happens to every president in his second term. Generally
he loses the midterms, right, this just happens. But to
blame that sort of bit of sort of I guess
you'd say electoral physics and use that as a excuse
to begin a purge.
Speaker 2: No, I.
Speaker 7: Think that this is what I would expect from the
conservative establishment. That the reason to have all these people
voting for a candidate who says there's thirty five different
genders and men can give birth to babies is that
we have Nick Faluentes, you know, writing on the far right,
and he has driven all these people in which of
course is utter nonsense. I mean, the reality is these
people have done nothing to control the momentum of the
wake left or the woke left, which is getting stronger
and stronger in the United States. I'm revealing this book
called the Polarization Myth. It's a neo conservative favorite they
put out, which argues that Americans have given up on
wokeness and we've all taken moderate positions on politics and
so forth. Well, the interesting is, most of the statistics
in that book would suggest exactly the opposite. Is suggests that,
you know that the woke left is romping all over
the place, that only thirties one or thirty two percent
of parents even object to having transgendered men put in
girls lock. The figures are absolutely appalling about how powerful
the wolk left has become in the United States. And
this is a battle that Conservatism Incorporated has simply refused
to fight. There's no gain in it. You know, their
sponsors wanted to talk about Israel, about how bad Putin is,
you know, and how we all have to stand for
democratic values. I mean, basically, neo conservative warmed up with
neo conservative positions and then talk about how great MAGA is,
you know, And of course MAGA is understood in the
same way that you know the neo It's something that
they try to assimilate to a kind of Conservatism incorporated
or neo conservative model. But they have done nothing on
the social moral front. The ones who have been fighting
these battles are like the Christian right. I mean, those
are the only ones who seemed to be fighting them.
But the conservative movement has given simply given up everything
to the enemy. And now they dig up, you know,
they dig up Nick Fouentes or somebody to blame this on.
The other thing that I think is a total is
that people are voting for the left because of affordability. Well, somehow,
affordability was not an issue when Joe Biden was president
and had these leftist handlers, right, he did very well
in midterms. There were higher inflation, more unemployment, ten to
twenty million illegals being dragged being brought into the country
by the Democratic Party, causing chaos in every city. Yet
he did very well in elections because he represented the
wok left, which is much more powerful than Conservatism Incorporated
is willing to concede. They also pretend that things are
happening that have never happened, Like all these black people
are running into the Republican Party. That's not happening. You know,
this is made up a women. Women are tired of,
you know, not being wives and mothers, so they're voting
for the Republican Party. No they're not, you know. So
they basically lie about how weak their position is and
how weak they have made it, you know, and then
blame it on some you know, some clown on the
far right who's causing everybody. But for some reason, all
these people are willing to vote for the left, although
the left sanctions anti Semitism, riots, all kinds of other stuff,
you know, they behave with the indecency of the Nazi
Party on its way to power. Yet people don't care.
They vote for the Democrats. They're happy to vote for
the Democrats, you know, the party of antifond, so they'll
vote for it. So somehow, the extremism on the other
side is not a problem. The extremism on our side
is supposedly a problem because people are so turned off
by Nick Fouentes or Tucker Carlson that that's why they're
voting for the left. I mean, it's a total it's
a total diversion from reality that these people are giving us.
Speaker 5: I think that, if anything, the language on affordability is
sort of a rake that Donald Trump has stepped on. So,
for instance, for people you know I who have basically
tried to get jobs since twenty twenty, the market, particularly
for young white man has been very rough. And so
when you hear a SoundBite that says Donald Trump saying, well,
the affordability crisis is a Democrat hoax, not once but twice,
even if that does not make you a Democrat, it
brings up the well, why should I care about you?
Speaker 6: Then?
Speaker 5: You know, okay, like do I just owe this to you?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 5: There's there's one thing I think is relevant as well.
Speaker 6: There the.
Speaker 5: Language around you who ought to be appealed To's an
interesting quote from an article Rod Dreer wrote not too
long ago. And in this piece he is quoting an
alleged Republican staffer. I say, because Rodreer has quoted me
and made up a quote just completely something did not happen.
So he says someone said this, Well, I'll leave it
at that, But the quote is quoting a Rodreer's words,
Maga Zoomer policy wonk who is a person of color,
so quoting the staffer. These idiots don't understand that they
can't win an election on a whites only platform. They're delusional.
There are a lot of immigrants and native born members
of ethnic groups who are natural Republicans and who Donald
Trump won in twenty twenty four. Take Indians for example.
If you think they're going to stick with a movement
whose leader Fuentez denounces Usha Vance as a racial slur,
you're crazy. But that's how they think. Several things there
which is interesting. One that natural conservatives line is one
that has been around my entire life and has yet
to materialize. Two, the assertion that Donald Trump won Indians
is a lie. He only lost sixty percent of the vote,
which is okay, better than previously, But losing by twenty
points or losing by ten points rather is still losing dramatically, right.
That is not a good uh, That is not a
good I guess electoral strategy. And so again it's so
frustrating to see this sort of backsliding where that phrase
natural conservatives or you know, natural Republicans has been around
for so long, and the idea that well, that's the
old playbook we need to run again when it has
so far, as I understand, never worked at all, is
incredibly frustrating.
Speaker 7: You might want to write on that for Chronicles magazine.
I agree with you entirely. That's a very good point.
Uh yeah. They very often though, they'll look at how
people answer survey questions, and up until about ten years ago,
blacks were the most conservative of any demographic and how
they would except maybe for religious right, and how they
would answer survey questions because they were against abortion, against
gay marriage, and so forth. They're also probably the most
leftist voting block in the United States, and there is
no effect that as and how they vote. So these
natural conservatives vote, you know, vote for the other side
all the time. And you know, considering how much effort
in money and other stuff is put into you know,
raising the number of the percentage of Blacks voting it
to Republicans by two percent, three percent, they could you know,
expend the same energy picking up more white votes.
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Speaker 7: I live in an area in which you know a
lot of white people who are who are in fact
conservative Republicans, don't vote. You know, there's not enough done
to recruit them as voter. There's very little. What they've
done is they've tried to pick up minorities. We're not
going to you know, who are certainly in the case
of blacks, but even in the case of Indians, you know,
there's a very limited number you're going to be able
to pick up where whereas you can pick up wats
and lots of white votes, they're not going after there.
I'm not saying that you should only go after white votes,
but they're not doing a very good job with them.
And I think there's this you know, this uh, this
almost uh expression of guilt of you know, racial social
guilt that causes them to you know, to speak about,
you know, how we have these natural conservatives who are
not white, we're going to go after when you know,
I don't. I don't think the the harvest of votes
justifies the uh, the the investment efforts that are that
are being made, and the way they talk about this.
You know, you turn on Fox News, blacks are coming
home to the Well, it's not happening, Blacks having you know,
voted in the majority for the Republican Party since nineteen
thirty two. So I mean, this is this is this
is not you say, well, we're going to pick up more. Well,
I noticed in the last election, the you know, the
additional black votes that that Trump picked up, you know,
went back. They just weren't there for the the Can
Party anymore. So I think I think this is largely
wasted effort.
Speaker 5: Well, I think it's important to make a distinction between
conservative of their culture and conservative of the country. For instance,
the smalli immigrants are a great example of this. If
you asked that same community, you know, the sort of
has spread of you know, questions about religion and you
know sex or sex and gender roles, they would no
doubt be to the right of basically everyone saved the
Westboro Baptist Church. Right, that does not keep them from
being involved in the largest fraud ring in the history
of United States welfare because ultimately in illin Omar is
a great example of this. They are blood and soil nationalists, yes,
but for them, not for you. And this is painfully
obvious to anyone who's actually been paying attention. But there
is this desire and I think it really is the
fulfillment of you know, the the dream quote unquote which
we understand, we say what you mean that of the
civil rights movement, right, which is to finally, you know,
we will be redeemed because we have the approval of
this client group of the Democratic Party. And again, a
well run country would benefit all of its citizens. But
the idea that you can counter just pure and naked
patronage free stuff with you know, these kind of airy
conservative values or a candidate who's of an appropriate skin tone.
It simply does not materialize. In my own state in Virginia,
we learned that lesson when some earl Sears made no
dent on the massive Republican Republican deficit with either blacks
or women at all, she got blown out of the water.
And yet seemingly this is a playbook that will be
run forever. There's no there's no legitimate counter argument to
it from within you know conservative ink.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Two points. First of all, if these Somalis vote for
the Democratic Party, that is an expression of ethnic nationalism,
because you know, the Democratic Party is the party for
their minority group, you know, as opposed to the uh
you know, the white people who or the enemy or
the opponents or the outgroup. So that you know, holding
conservative values for your own group, but voting for the
left is perfectly consistent given the mindset you know of
these of the ethnic minority. This goes so far. I mean,
you could see even a country like England Catholics for
a very long time may have changed. We're very conservative
on cultural social issues, but voted for the left because
they weren't members of the Anglican Church right, and they
had a history being persecuted in the country. So the
fact that people have conservative values has never meant that
they're going to be conservative in relation to an outgroup,
the majority outgroup. I go through this in my book
on Leo Strauss, will say he was so conservative he
was like a fascist. Well, he was very conservative and
Jewish politics. He supported the revision of Zionists on the right.
There's no indication he was on the right in German
politics right, and he was, you know, he was a
Democrat in the United States for a very long time,
although I think he did vote for vote for Barry
Goldwater because he didn't like Kennedy's dealings with krush Cheff
in terms of the you know, atomic disarmament talks that
took place during the Kennedy administration. But there's no reason
to assume that because somebody is conservative in his own community,
he's going to be conservative, you know, in taking a
position together, taking a position within an out group community.
So I think you're entirely right on that point. But
I think a lot of this hope that we're going
to sort of realize the vision of Martin Luther King,
who of course was not in favor, was not opposed
to affirmative action. He's strongly supported affirmative action and also
supported socialism and all kind of communist advisors and so forth.
But the whole cult of Martin Luther King, I think
what you have in the concern the what I said,
the Boomer conservative movement, which is conservatives of a certain age,
I think goes together with a you know, a deep
sense of guilt or responsibility for the inequalities suffered by
blacks and the American past. I think the other thing
you see is in absolutely over the top philo Semitism,
because we Christians persecuted Jews, of course, not the American Christians,
but Christians somewhere else at some other point in history.
So we have to sendhow attuned for that by being
like three hundred percent anti anti Semitic. And I think
there are certain attitudes to which people like like Marko
Levin can play the blacks on Fox News and so forth.
But I think these sensibilities are found almost entirely among
Boomer the Boomer Republicans, Republicans of a certain generation, who
are always trying to prove that although they were Republicans.
They were not racists, and they were not anti Semites,
and they were very sensitive on these issues, and as
you said, bringing bringing the depth of blacks into the
Republican Party as a kind of redemption for themselves. And
I think this is what drives them to pursue what
I think is a lunatic strategy. We had a Carl
horrowoz Srow a piece for Chronicles, you know, showing the
failure of Republicans recruiting the blacks. I mean, just says
that's not worked and says, you know, why would they
do anything that stupid? It's not working, and so you
can spend your money, your resource, is your efforts on
some other group. And you know, I Carl doesn't really answer.
My answer is because these people do feel guilty and
they don't want the left calling them racists. You know,
I mean I know them in their mentality. Uh so
you know they're Therefore, there's this other thing that somehow
they're going to lose an election because of Tucker Carlson
or Nick Faluentes. Is is delusional. I mean I can
think of a thousand other reasons why they lose an election.
Speaker 5: Well, and MLK sort of exists as a secular saint.
There's the literal man, right who thought what he thought
and did what he did. But he sort of ascended into.
Speaker 7: A Yes, he isn't sankthood, you know, I mean he was,
he was sanctified and canonized and so forth. He he is,
He is, you know, almost kind of living god. He's
not living anymore, but he has a kind of godlike character.
Speaker 5: By now, well exactly, and you see that the left
has really been well and truly done with MLK for
longer than I've been alive. Progressives speak dismissively about MLK
and conservatives using that sort of rhetoric. I don't pretend
to be an expert on you know, contemporary black politics,
but very few figures speak reverently about m OK.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 5: Sure you have the kind of older generation, you know,
Al Sharpton and others who will mention him, but realistically
it is it is effectively a figure of as you said,
conservatives of a certain era that is where he exists,
that is who promulgates his cold and again the thing
that I and I was actually just speaking to my
wife about this, but I think conservatives have a hard
time wrapping their head around the fact that for many
of these client groups, they view the Democrat Party as
exactly that, as a patron client relationship, something where they
are effectively paid off, either directly or indirectly, for their support.
And so again, why would anyone give up that position?
You get paid, you get preferential treatment on loans, government contracts.
I mean, look at the fact that you know, black
women have you know, I think the highest educational achievement
percentage wise of any group in America. Most of that
at government expense. Again, they're being paid for their support.
And so no amount of what's effectively moralizing, right, no
amount of well, really, it would be better if you
didn't have all of these handouts and you competed in
the free market rationally. As you've said, why would anyone
take that deal? You're offering them less? And I don't
think that's a good thing to have a society run
on gross patronage that way, But it's simply how it works.
And so again, right, if we're talking about why are
the Republicans hurting in elections, a big part of it
is that they were seen to who knows how close
they were able to accomplish this to disrupting that network
of patronage. In my own state, they went after government workers,
who are roughly eight percent of people with a job
in my state, concentrated in populous areas, disproportionately wealthy, and so,
whether rightly or wrongly, it was assumed that that was
the fault of Republicans writ large, who is the Republican?
Now you have a large number of people who are
financially incentivized to keep a Democrat in office. So, again,
that has nothing to do with anything Nick Fuentt has
Tucker Carlson or what's interesting that jd Vance seems to
get looped into this as well. It is quite simply
you threatened their paycheck. It's not nearly that complicated.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think there's more than just I agree with
you about the paycheck. But the Democrats provide a moral
argument for why we should give you that paycheck any
even more money, because they are a collection of grievance groups,
you know, and which include white women, blacks, other minorities, right,
government workers obviously, and all of these people.
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Speaker 7: Not only get preference from the Democratic Party, but the
Democratic Party presents them as victim groups to whom we
have to give special benefits because of past discrimination. And
if you do not want to talk about this past discrimination,
those groups become very upset at this point. So if
the Republican parties of somebody, some black Republican on Fox says, well,
blacks don't want to be treated as victims they want
to be treated like everybody else. The answer is no,
they want to be treated as victims. They want to
get these benefits, and they want to be given a
moral argument for why they are victims and deserve more benefits,
so that the two go together, and their Republicans are
misrepresenting them, you know, miss and saying things that they
obviously do not believe to make them vote for the
Republican Party.
Speaker 13: Uh.
Speaker 7: And the same thing is to with other other groups
that that lgbt Q, all all these other grievance groups,
that they're going to give them special benefits. And the
anti discrimination laws of course have the effect of improving
the job prospects of all these groups or improving your
other benefits. Right because once once you decide that these
people have been discriminated against and you're gonna have to
hire them otherwise the government is going to come after
you or they or they can say the reason you
did hire me for this job is because I'm black,
or I'm gay, or I'm transgendered. So this gives them,
gives them a sort of a leg up, you know,
and applying for positions and getting into universities and so forth.
So the anti discrimination laws are not just against discrimination.
They get special benefits, financial and other benefits to the
groups that they that they that they claim to be protecting.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 5: And additionally, you see a sort of similar discussion revolving
around law enforcement. I'm sure we are all aware of,
you know, population level disparities and crime rate, and so
that becomes a proxy issue for quote unquote oppression. So,
for instance, you have this case out of the Pacific
Northwest where a man has just been cleared of stabbing
someone because in the commission of a separate crime, this
person used the racial slur right while being robbed, and
that you know, sped him into a rage, and so
he took out a knife and stabbed him, and the
jury acquitted him. You know, it's sort of the same
level of deference given to you know, a Japanese samurai,
where if a peasant insults him, he can you know,
pull out his sword and cut him down with no
legal repercussion. Again, to be all principles aside to be
given that sort of legal deference right where if you
can in any way you inject an element of perceived prejudice,
you are simply allowed to act however you want. That
is an incredible political reward, and when the alternative is
returning to a level playing field, perceived or otherwise, that
is not a good sales tactic. Whereas you know what
is being offered to, shall we say, voting populations that
have historically supported the conservative movement, right the H one
b soga where you know, over I think it's one
point five million Indians by the end of the year
will be here on H one b's who would have
had those jobs otherwise, professional educated white people who okay,
sure have not gone for Trump in every election, but
are much much closer than those other groups we've mentioned,
And you don't even necessarily have to give them anything.
You just have to say your job will not be taken.
It's a much easier, much less expensive move to move
to make. But nonetheless right that mythical importance of African
American sort of sanction matters more than the actual achievable
electoral goals, at least seemingly so.
Speaker 7: No, I think I think you're right. Republicans should not
go after votes, says as cleverly as the Democrats do,
But they also don't use the rhetoric that all these
grievance groups want to hear, which I think is important. Like,
you know, if we were to look at the Obamas,
would say that Michelle Obama was obviously a beneficiary of
affirmative action. I think she went to Princeton or you
listen to her speech. She does not seem to be
cut from the same material as these Princeton graduates that
are undergraduates. I knew, as you know, as a student,
her husband got some other and these are affirmative action
deals that they got. But the Democrats, the Republicans will say,
you see, she got preferential treatment. Were Democrats who say, no,
this makes up for all the millennia of discrimination against blacks,
against women. And she's perfectly right in being angry and
you know, attacking white racists all around herb because this
is what our society is like, and try to overcome
so that the minorities are felt good. I made to
feel good about getting these privileges. You know, you deserve them,
and we're going to give them out to all these
grievance groups, and we're going to give you preferential treatment
for all kinds of things. The question is for me
is why are white males not angrier about this? Since
they are, they're on the losing end. And from what
I can tell you, what a majority of white males
voting voting for the Democrat a gubernatorial candidate in New
Jersey and in Virginia, you know, I mean, I think
these people would be voting the other way. I mean,
you try to keep these keep your enemies from being elected.
And this does seem to be that. This seemed to
be the case in the presidential race. I think over
sixty percent of white males voted for Trump. But it
doesn't seem thedication any longer. And I wonder what gain
there is for these these white males to vote for
There would be oppressors.
Speaker 5: I think, and this is in the case of New Jersey.
This is pure conjecture, but I think that astonishingly poor
candidate selection is a part of it. You see a
similar mechanism in the UK. So labor wins a massive majority,
how do they win it? Well, did they win or
did the Conservatives lose? And what you see is that
in the case of their most recent election, conservative state home,
they quite simply did not vote. And so in my
own state, right with Winsome Earl Sears, who I've spent
quite a long time making fun of No one wanted
to vote for her. At best, the most you could
get was, well, we'll keep a Democrat out. But in
the case of you know, Spanberger, she was actually quite
a good candidate from the level of being able to
keep all of the craziness under wraps. She believes incredibly
radical things, but on the campaign trail she was able
to paint herself as a moderate Democrat. You and I
understand that that isn't true. But for the vast majority
of people, incredibly weak Republican candidate, a Democrat who can
clean up her act and you know, seems to be responsible,
doesn't motivate anyone to get out and vote. I know
less about New Jersey, but I think additionally, you have
a Republican party that is allergic to you know, quote
unquote identity politics, is allergic to saying anything positive about
white people are Europe or the West writ large, unless
it is couched in this kind of moral universalist language,
which waters it down to the point of meaninglessness. So
you have these sort of you know, these these sort
of aphorisms, you know, these kind of vague, fluffy statements
about you know, securing a future for everyone, and you know,
everyone is an American, or everyone can be an American.
And when you're looking around saying, well, no, this is mine,
this is my place, and you seem willing to effectively
sell out to interests from elsewhere, India's you know, merely
the kind of largest offender. Well, I'm not. You're not
entitled to my support. Again, it is perhaps rational to
vote for a bad Republican, but most elections are not rational, right,
It's an emotional game.
Speaker 7: Yeah. The the election of Jersey, though, was curious because
the candidate, the Republican candidate, only lost in the last
gubernatorial race by about three or four points. Now he
lost by over twenty points running against a weaker opponent,
and his opponent was not at all shy about, you know,
taking non moderate, woke positions. She did take them, and
Chitarelli actually you know, fought back and said that these
are crazy positions, and she was taking them quite openly.
She also favored turning New Jersey I don't know if
it is a sanctuary state or making it into a
sanctuary state. Yet she won by over twenty points, and
the white male vote turned to I think he went
over sixty percent of that vote, which was very unusual.
Speaker 5: And well to sort of no no to. You sent
me an article that or you mentioned in our email correspondence,
an article you wrote explaining exactly this, that the Democrats
within their own coalition are rewarded for radicalism. And look,
I don't believe it, but the things that the Trump
administration is doing or was doing, by sort of attacking
the patronage networks, the government bloat right or also the
immigration is effectively red meat for progressives. This is fascism,
and so it's the perfect time to lean into radicalism,
at least from that perspective.
Speaker 7: No, I agree with you, But I think the problem
is that when Trump does the right thing, and I
think we would agree that, you know, going after these
the government patronage network and going and trying to limit immigration,
these are the right things, but he's going to lose
because the other side has more votes. And I've you know,
I've arrived at this position very painfully and reluctantly. But
I think I think the woke left, by now the
woke left, and the left generally has more votes than
the other side, and most of the independents probably lean
in that direction as well. And that's what I mean.
Speaker 14: I was.
Speaker 7: I was of two minds about the election in the
seventh district in Tennessee. I thought the Republican did pull
it out by nine points, but Nashville went over eighty
percent for this woman who sounded crazy to me. I
mean that men can give birth their thirty or forty
different gender. I mean, I think she was saying we're insane.
But I think a lot of people believe that, or
are at least comfortable with that. But with that kind
of belief and I think I think the woke left
has been very powerful and gaining ground for many decades
by now, and the right has not fought back at all.
Speaker 14: Well.
Speaker 5: I think in this sort of dovetails into a conversation
about affordability, that many people feel as if they are
downwardly mobile, and so these sort of luxury beliefs offer
a way to signal social status in a way their
wealth cannot back up, and so that ability to set
to set what is seen as high class, what is
seen as broadly speaking, laudable. I mean, this is the
point that Jarvin makes with the cathedral.
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Speaker 5: AE right that if you can control the sort of
the engine of social status, you have the rest of
society by the nose. I think that's what we're witnessing. Look,
the number of people going to college is almost ever
increasing as a percentage, while the economic value of that
college degree is going down. I believe Bloomberg said that
for white men, at least in every other group shortly
behind them, the earnings have now reached parity between high
school graduates and college graduates. And so you have an
immense amount of people who have done what they were
supposed to do to set themselves up. They are suddenly
effectively working class despite their education. And well, if I
can't compete on a financial level, well I will simply
ape the mannerism of the ruling elite. So I think
that's a good part of it as well, especially in
a town like Nashville, which is a collecting sort of
strivers and young people from across the world, has become
a huge destination for rootless people across America.
Speaker 7: No, I think I think you're right. I mean, associating
with with all these these leftist lunacies becomes a vehicle
of improving, for improving your social status. That and I've
seen this, you know, with with younger people, even my
own family, so that that uh, suddenly they decide that
you know, uh, having transgendered in girls' lockers is a
fine thing, because we're not bigot age, you know, we
we understand this and so forth, Whereas you know, I
hold views which in their mind are reactionary views which
you know, only uh fundamentalists living in Western Georgia or
something would would would would believe. So I think I
think that that's that's part of the cultural ground that
we've lost. I'm not that big a fan of Jarvin,
but I am a Gramscian. I mean, I'm a great
fan of Antonio Gramsci even though he was a co
founder of the Italian Communist Party while he was in
exile put an exel by the fascist government of Italy.
But I think he's correct that what distinguishes the modern
period from earlier periods is that a lot of power,
power over the city, what he would call the cultural superstructure,
determines the belief system among everybody else and most people
except what he was saying was the was called the
cultural hugemony or the hegemonic ideology, and that's what we
have in America today. I mean, there is no right
that I can speak of. The right is nothing the
sort of a collection of people getting money from the
Murdoch media and from the Murdoch fan or something like that.
But there's a very powerful left, and it occupies all
the cultural centers and the people who put it there
were intellectuals, writers, uh, producers of producers of popular culture,
so called educators broadly understood, and government workers, and they
have created the the dominant ideology and have been able
to impose it on everybody. Genienoveji when he was a
when he was still a Marxist, angered other marx As
more progressive Marxist by suggesting that slaves believed what the
masterclass believed. They said, we took over the beliefs because
these these are this was the hegemonic ideology, and I
believe the same thing is true about the wolf left today.
It is the view of people in power, you know,
which which everybody else uh tries to absorb, to imitate
because they're they're they're so you economic, their their cultural
positions would be determined by, you know, how how profoundly
woke they can become, how much they how much they
can take over the views of the people who are
actually running our society. And those people are not Donald Trump,
and they're not Maga through the opportunity to that point.
Speaker 5: One of the numbers that made a lot of headlines
a few years ago, during the whole COVID debacle, was
that twenty two percent of Generation Z is LGBTQ. It's
somewhat absurd. When you dig into it, you see the
vast number of that is women who self report is bisexual.
Right now, you dig another layer down and you're like, okay, well,
how many of you have been in a relationship with
a woman? That number drops to dramatically yes, because the
operative mechanism there is not necessarily in your same sex attraction.
It is a desire for social status, a desire to
be seen as interesting, progressive, because there was a huge
amount of social cachet to be gained. This is a
very stupid example, but there was a It was Conde
nas own this food magazine Bone Appetite, and this relatively
untalented Indian chef, Indian female chef, basically tore the whole
company apart with the claims of supposed oppression. I'm not
entirely sure that this magazine, headquartered in Manhattan, was particularly racist,
but nonetheless she was able to, you know, blow that up.
The magazine is still there in sort of a rump
state and parachute into a cushy job at the New
York Times. She was rewarded for that sort of behavior.
And sure, you know, you or I might not be
you know, Indian, that might be a little hard to fake.
But if you can say, oh, well, you know, I
may have kissed a man once or twice, all of
a sudden you have increased your sort of market value. Right,
and again that is directly a direct result of this
sort of top down cultural hegemony.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the question is how do these people who seem
to me to be absolute lunatics come to control our society?
And by lunatics, I mean they're their ideology seems far
far for me, far less believable than Nazism, Communism, any
any any these other tutalitarians. And they are toutlitarians, but
they're soft utalitarians. You know, they made unleash mobs on
us and you know, having teetha beat up people and
burn their on their cars. But for the most part
it's sort of soft power that they're using.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 7: Their fox is not lions, right, Their foxes not to
use z the Machiavelli's term. Right, their foxes not lions.
So the question is why have they been so successful
not only in the United States, but throughout the Western world,
throughout the anglosphere, they're in power everywhere. These people, how
did they get there? They're not in power and Hungary
and that's why they hate the Hungarian government because it's
not They hate the Slovakian government because it's not woke.
Putin is a bad man because he doesn't have homosexual
instruction in public schools, which I think is why they
hate him so much the left. I mean, it's it's
not for rational reasons. It's because he doesn't carry out
ideological imperatives. But the question is how do these nutcases
get so much power? And I don't know. I write
books on this, and yet it is still a mystery
to me.
Speaker 5: Well, based off of the genuinely this is one of
the many things I've borrowed from your from your work.
I mean, my assumption is, effectively this is a developed
version of the ideology of the American empire that conquered
the world in World War two, and so sure FDR
may not have had nice things to say about homosexuals,
but ultimately it is the same regime sort of following
that the natural conclusions of you know, the thought at
which it was sort of crystallized and obviously there's a sorry.
Speaker 7: Anti fascist exactly. Yes, it's a Second World War, it's
a continuation of fighting Hitler, right, we never finished that war.
It goes it's almost like the Catholic Mass that re
enacts Christ's sacrificed. This reenacts the crusade of the Second
World War, goes on and on, it gets you know,
every minute, it gets re enacted every time we fight
a homophobe or an anti Semite, whoever the bad person is. Right, well,
we are, we're we're we are returning to the struggle
against Hitler, which never.
Speaker 5: And this is exactly why kan Inc Is not in
any way a serious opposition, because ultimately they are members
of the same church. You know, it's just Jesuits versus Franciscans.
Speaker 7: The uh.
Speaker 5: And to to that point, UH with regards to you know,
the sort of anti fascism, I think there you have
the same explanation for the GOP's obsession with courting minority voters,
right that then we can be absolved for this great
sin of being connected ultimately to the same line of
thought you know that went through you know, Hitler and
Robert E. Lee and all of these kind of boogeymen.
Now really there's nothing in common between those two figures
really at all, Like it's almost absurd to say, but
much like MLK, they've become these sort of almost shibboleths
of evil, right, just representative, almost cardboard cutouts. But Paul,
we are fast approaching time. I'll give you a chance
to conclude and then mention maybe where people can find you.
Speaker 7: Well, I don't know to conclude in a hurry. I
would urge everybody to subscribe to our magazine Chronicles, and
you might want to read an a collection of my
essays that just came out called The es Central Paul
Gottfried's published by Passage Press, a four or five hundred
think it's almost five hundred page collection of essays, mostly
mostly polemics, that I wrote over a forty year period,
which might be of interest to some of mister Burden's listeners.
I'd also urge you to read my book on anti Fascism.
And another book you might want to look at is
the one on the post Marxist Left that I wrote,
or the the European Left and the New Millennium, which
is which is was written around the beginning of the
of the New Millennium, but you'd find it interesting because
it's in that book. I predict the rise of wokery
as a as a left that is different from Marxism
but is in some ways influenced by it. But I
mostly emphasize the differences and explain why woke wokeness is
a more historically appropriate form of the left than the
Marxism that it was replacing. So those are my remarks.
Speaker 5: Well, Paul, I will say, as someone who is, according
to my family, infamously hard to find Christmas gifts for,
I have been purchased for Christmas a copy of your
new book at Passage Press. I may have tipped them off,
so I will be going through it and probably pestering
you with more emails about things you said thirty years ago.
But so highly recommend that the other two books will
be linked as well. As far as my stuff Jay
Burdens show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube or on substack, I've been
writing much more, actually, a recent piece on this concept
of the woke right and the claim that the woke
right is inherently maliced, which it may surprise you, there
is little to no evidence to support that assertion anyway, Paul,
it was a pleasure speaking to you and everyone at home.
Keep your head up.
Speaker 7: Good night, good night.
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