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No Personesses every 23 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:02.280 d every by Lost Eaters conditions eighty plus. 24 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:11.560 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 25 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:14.680 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:22.000 written about him Gaesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK every 27 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.760 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:30.359 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:33.239 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:45.560 Good evening on a spring afternoon in nineteen eighty five 31 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:49.159 and Gary, Indiana, a fifteen year old girl kills an 32 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:52.840 elderly woman in a violent home invasion in a city 33 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.519 with a history of racial tensions and white flight. The girl, 34 00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:00.439 Paula Cooper, is black, and her victim, Ruth Pelk, is 35 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:03.959 white and a beloved Bible teacher. The press swoops in 36 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:07.599 when Paula is sentenced to death. No one decries the 37 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:11.199 impending execution of a tenth grader, but the tide begins 38 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:14.520 to shift when the victim's grandson, Bill forgives the girl 39 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:17.919 against the wishes of his family and campaigns to spare 40 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:21.759 her life. This tragedy in a Midwestern steel town soon 41 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:26.360 reverberates across the United States and around the world, reaching 42 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:30.120 as far away as the Vatican, as newspapers cover the 43 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:33.879 story on their front pages, and millions signed petitions in 44 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:37.319 support of Paula. As Paula waits on death row, her 45 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:41.240 fate sparks a debate that not only animates legal circles, 46 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:45.080 but raises vital questions about the value of human life. 47 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:48.080 What are we demanding when we call for justice? Is 48 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:52.439 forgiveness an act of desperation or of profound bravery? As 49 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:56.560 Bill and Paula's friendship deepens, and as Bill discovers others 50 00:02:56.599 --> 00:03:00.439 who have chosen to forgive other terrible violence, their story 51 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:03.919 asks us to consider what radical acts of empathy we 52 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.840 might be capable of. In seventy Times seven, alex Maher 53 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:11.599 weaves an unforgettable narrative of an act of violence and 54 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:14.879 its aftermath. This is a story about the will to live, 55 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.280 to survive, to grow, to change, and about what we 56 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:23.439 are willing to accept as justice. Tirelessly researched and told 57 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:27.479 with intimacy and precision, this book brings a haunting chapter 58 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:31.400 in the history of our criminal justice system to astonishing life. 59 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:34.960 The book that we're featuring this evening is seventy times seven, 60 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:38.560 a true Story of Murder and Mercy, with my special guest, 61 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:42.400 journalist and author Alex Maher. Welcome to the program and 62 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.240 thank you very much for this interview. Alex Maher, thanks 63 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:47.800 so much for having me. First off, just tell us 64 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:51.240 how you came to the title of this book. It 65 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.680 has a biblical reference. Tell us about that. 66 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:58.000 Yes, so seventy times seven will seem a little mysterious 67 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:00.840 to some readers. Others will get theirrought friends right away. 68 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:06.120 It's from the Gospel of Matthew in the Bible, and 69 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:07.680 it's a passage that means a lot to one of 70 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:10.719 the central characters in the book. It's a moment where 71 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:14.080 one of the disciples, Peter, is seeming kind of frustrated, 72 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.279 confronts Jesus and asks, so, you know, are you saying 73 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:20.839 that we are supposed to forgive the people who harm 74 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:25.800 us what seven times? And Jesus says, no, I didn't 75 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:30.959 say seven, I say seventy times seven. Right, So this 76 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.560 is it's a great moment because it's a challenge to 77 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:41.600 forgive those who harm us potentially a countless number of times, 78 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:47.680 and that is the challenge at the core of this book. 79 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:52.439 It's something that the different characters wrestle with, It's something 80 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:56.439 I wrestled with as the writer, and it's at the 81 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:58.879 heart of this really extraordinary story. 82 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.439 What are just a couple questions that you did want 83 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:05.160 to try to find answers for with the writing of 84 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:05.680 this book. 85 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:10.600 Well, when I learned about this terrible crime I, you know, 86 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:12.879 and the fact that young girl had committed it, and 87 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:16.519 that young girl, at fifteen had been sentenced to death 88 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:18.639 for the crime, you know, I started to ask myself 89 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.040 these larger questions. What is justice in that kind of scenario? 90 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.040 It is not a question that we really have a 91 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:29.959 consensus about, and that was one of the challenges for me. 92 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.240 What is also the role of the family members on 93 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:38.160 either side of a crime. Do they possibly have something 94 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:42.000 in common that the system isn't allowing them to recognize 95 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.600 and explore? So that was a big part of the picture. 96 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:48.439 You know, what are the principles that guide us when 97 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:53.519 we're thrown into an extreme situation like the violent death 98 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:56.680 of a loved one. Do you respond based on the 99 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:59.240 faith you were raised with? Do you respond based on 100 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:01.319 your belief in the life, letter of the law. Do 101 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:04.480 you decide to take a stance that no one around 102 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:08.560 you agrees with. So that was some tough and challenging 103 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:11.199 stuff that I wrestled with while I worked on this, 104 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:13.839 for it ended up being more than five years. 105 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.879 You take us initially to a dramatic scene Gary, Indiana 106 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:22.000 and nineteen seventy nine and a garage and Gloria and 107 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:25.720 her two daughters, Ronda who's twelve and Paula who's nine, 108 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:29.360 and this is the Cooper family. Tell us what's happening 109 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.040 in this scene that you take us to initially in 110 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:32.680 your book? 111 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:35.839 Right, So, you know, when you're writing about a story 112 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:39.519 with a violent, violent crime at its center, there is 113 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:43.319 immediately the question of when do you introduce the crime? 114 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.120 How do you set it up so that the reader 115 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:49.240 may have a little bit more of an open mind 116 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:53.279 towards the different players involved, the potential for empathy in 117 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:57.079 surprising places. So instead of opening with the crime itself, 118 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:00.600 I actually stepped back in time to nineteen seventy nine, 119 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:03.800 as you say, and I wanted to give the reader 120 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.079 a sense of a moment that had a profound impact 121 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:10.800 on young Paula Cooper. So I open the book with 122 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:14.839 a morning, very early morning when this woman Gloria takes 123 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:18.680 her two daughters, the older sister Ronda, the younger sister, Paula. 124 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:21.000 She takes them out to the garage in the morning, 125 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.680 closes the garage door, loads the kids into the car. 126 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.959 She rolls down the windows, and she starts the engine. 127 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:32.120 She has decided that they're all going to die that morning, 128 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.279 and she allows them all to sit in the car 129 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.800 till they pass out. She has a change of heart, 130 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:41.199 thank God, at the last moment, and carries the girls 131 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:43.480 back into the house, puts them in their bedroom, and 132 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:46.279 she leaves them a note. Ronda, the older sister, eventually 133 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.000 wakes up totally disoriented. She sees the note from her 134 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:51.560 mom that says that she's gone back outside and she's 135 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:54.199 going to finish what she started. So in a panic, 136 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:56.560 she runs out. She goes to the neighbor's house. She 137 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.000 gets one neighbor, she gets another neighbor. They drag her 138 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:02.040 out of the garage. She sees these different people performing 139 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.639 CPR on her mother. The medics come the fire department. 140 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.959 At this point, young Paula is standing outside as well, 141 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.439 and she's absolutely hysterics seeing these strangers trying to revive 142 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.920 her mother and her mother's still passed out on the ground. Eventually, 143 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:19.920 Gloria the mother, is taken to the hospital and the 144 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:23.360 girls are sent to stay with family. But a week later, 145 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:26.680 their mother checks herself out early she picks up the girls. 146 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:30.399 It's never mentioned again. You know, this is not a 147 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.919 scenario where the girls were placed in anyone else's care. 148 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.960 Ronda told me personally that she remembered very clearly, no 149 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:40.679 one even took their pulse that day, no one checked 150 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:43.440 to see how the girls themselves were doing. And she 151 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.679 told me that she was so shocked when her sister 152 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:49.960 Paula committed this murder at fifteen years old a few 153 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:54.080 years later, and she never understood exactly the moment when 154 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:57.200 her sister changed enough to be capable of that act. 155 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:00.399 But in the process of us speaking, she said, you 156 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.399 know what, I think it has something to do ultimately 157 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:06.799 with you know, the change must have started that morning. 158 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:08.559 And so that's how I opened the book. 159 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:11.799 Tell us more about the family life of the Cooper family, 160 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.399 and a little bit more about Gary, Indiana in the 161 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:20.159 seventies and the eighties, and this suburb and Marshalltown where 162 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:20.960 they are living. 163 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:25.360 You know, Gary, Indiana has such an incredible history, and 164 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:30.000 I think other books could easily be written just about Gary. 165 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.840 It was a town that was created in the early 166 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:37.240 nineteen hundreds just so that US Steel, which was building 167 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:40.919 a plant there, could have somewhere for executives to live. 168 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:44.679 As the town was built, you saw that all of 169 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:48.279 these immigrants who were coming from Europe, and black workers 170 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:51.440 and families migrating up from the South to get jobs 171 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:53.360 in the mill, they were kind of left to fend 172 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:56.799 for themselves, right, So immediately you had these middle class 173 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:00.720 white executives who lived in a properly cared for part 174 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:04.360 of the city. Everyone else was improvising in shacks at 175 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:07.240 the edge of town. It really grew into a heavily 176 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:11.120 segregated city to the point where eventually it was a 177 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.799 northern industrial town that was as segregated as parts of 178 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:18.000 the Jim Crow South right. And that's relevant background for 179 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.120 the story in that by the time you jump ahead 180 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:25.440 to the eighties, the city has experienced economic depression and 181 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.720 white flight into the suburbs further south. So it's a 182 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.919 predominantly black city where somehow the black population that has 183 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:36.799 you know, there's a robust black community there, there's a 184 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:40.039 civil rights movement that's burgeoning. There's a lot of positive 185 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:42.679 things going on in Gary, but they just can't get 186 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:47.240 a leg up, and the white population tends to blame 187 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.879 black leadership in Gary for messing up, when actually much 188 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:53.799 larger forces are at play. So when you get to 189 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:57.080 nineteen eighty five, Ruth Pelke's living in what's known as 190 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:01.399 the Glen Park neighborhood, and that neighborhood had remained predominantly 191 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:04.399 white for a long long time. Black families were not 192 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.480 welcome there. It had started to integrate by the eighties. 193 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:11.200 But the fact of these four black girls, including Paula, 194 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:15.000 talking their way into this elderly white woman's home, robbing her, 195 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.960 and ultimately killing her, that had another dimension. People saw 196 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.480 it as a symbolic crime in terms of how the 197 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:26.200 white locals interpreted the event, some of them in terms 198 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:29.720 of the Cooper family themselves. They lived in Marshalltown, that 199 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:33.240 was not that far away, and that was, you know, 200 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:36.840 a very simple housing development. The two girls were, you know, 201 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:40.159 Paula and Ronda were very close. Their father was rarely 202 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.559 home when he was he was physically abusive. Their mother 203 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:47.360 drank a great deal, worked long hours at a local hospital, 204 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:50.240 They were happiest when they were alone, just the two 205 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.440 of them together, because they could just create their own 206 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:54.919 little world. You know, they would have little dance parties. 207 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:58.240 To Jackson five records, the Jackson five were heroes. They 208 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:00.919 grew up not that far away in Garret, and you know, 209 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.240 they would do each other's hair. They were just regular 210 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:07.759 kids who truly just loved each other and Ron that 211 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.679 in a way played the part of their real mother. 212 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.600 All of that came crashing down with the crime. 213 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.840 Tell us about the circumstances that bring these four young 214 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:22.240 girls fourteen, fifteen and two that are sixteen to Ruth 215 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:26.120 Pelk's door. She is seventy nine years old and a 216 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:30.559 Bible teacher. So tell us how the circumstances in which 217 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:35.519 April and these other three other girls, including Paula come 218 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:38.720 to the attention of Ruth Pelki come into her orbit. 219 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:41.639 Well, so these four girls who were you know, Denise 220 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.600 was fourteen, April and Paula were fifteen, Karen was sixteen. 221 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:49.440 They all were at Luell's High school and they decided 222 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:52.159 to skip class one afternoon. They went to the video arcade. 223 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:54.960 They ran out of money and they went over to 224 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:59.200 April's house, and she suggested, you know, we could try 225 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.600 to steal some money from this older woman who lives 226 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:05.120 across the way. She's a Bible teacher, she's older, she 227 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.440 lives alone, she has nice things in her house. I've 228 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.279 been over there. Just go over there and you say 229 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:14.080 you're interested in Bible study lessons and see if she'll 230 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:16.080 let you in. Three of the girls go over there. 231 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.840 One of them, Paula, has brought a knife from April's kitchen, 232 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.120 and the idea is to scare missus Pelki. The situation 233 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:27.399 escalates quickly, and Paula ends up striking missus Pelk over 234 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:32.200 the head, and ultimately she seems to snap and ends 235 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:36.320 up stabbing missus Pelki thirty three times on her dining 236 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:39.639 room floor. It's a horrible crime. When they leave, the 237 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.720 girls have found ten dollars and the keys to missus 238 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:46.679 Pelki's plymouth, and they drive off. Within just a couple days, 239 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.639 all four of them have been arrested and they've confessed, 240 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.799 and Paula gave a very explicit confession. So from very 241 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:58.720 early on this was not going to be a case 242 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:02.480 of wrongful conviction. That that is not at play in 243 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.360 this story, and it's also part of why I was 244 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:08.720 drawn to it. There's something really challenging about asking the 245 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:11.879 reader to look at this situation. Here is a fifteen 246 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.159 year old girl, Here is this horrible crime. She absolutely 247 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.759 did this. Now, what what do you think is the 248 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:21.200 just response in this situation? 249 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:26.360 Tell us about each girl's parental situation and as a result, 250 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:29.879 if any of these people get private attorneys. 251 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:34.799 You know, Karen and Paula both had very difficult home situations. 252 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:38.360 Karen and April had both lost their mothers a couple 253 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:43.559 of years earlier. Karen had gotten pregnant at thirteen and 254 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.120 had had a young son at the time. April was pregnant, 255 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:50.840 I think seven or eight, eight months pregnant. They all 256 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:53.840 had very unstable home situations. And Paula, you know, I 257 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:56.200 mentioned the abuse, but also she and Ronda would run 258 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.799 away from home. They would run away and ask for help. 259 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:02.240 They told a social worker, you know, you've got to 260 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.960 help us out, they told At one point, paul on 261 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.240 her own, went to a police station in the middle 262 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:09.519 of the night and said, you know, you've got to 263 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.480 help me. I'm being beaten. And she'd be put in 264 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.600 foster care or an emergency shelter, sent right back home. 265 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:19.279 It was always temporary. Denise, the youngest one, was probably 266 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:23.320 the least likely candidate who to have ended up there 267 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.639 that day. She just kind of got scooped up socially 268 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.919 that afternoon. Her family was doing all right, and she 269 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.639 was the one who ended up getting the lightest sentence, 270 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.799 although although the three girls who were sentenced to prison 271 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:41.480 rather than to death did receive relatively long terms. So that's, 272 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.759 you know, that's the background there. When all four were arrested. 273 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:49.159 I will say that the Lake County prosecutor at the time, 274 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.480 Jack Crawford, he was extremely pro death penalty. He'd been 275 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:57.120 elected on essentially tough on crime, classic tough on crime platform, 276 00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:01.440 had a press conference announced, we've got the suspects, we 277 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:05.519 have confessions. These are four young girls, and I'm going 278 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:07.799 to push for the death penalty for as many of 279 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:10.600 them as I can, which is an incredible statement to 280 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:14.360 make about people who are so young. And ultimately he 281 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:18.519 pursued the death penalty with Paula and Karen, and Paula 282 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.639 because of the depth of her involvement and the heinousness 283 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:23.879 of the crime in a death penalty state, you know, 284 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.360 she took her public defender decided she should plead guilty. 285 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:30.039 With no deal on the table. He put up very 286 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.799 very minimal defense. Is arguments that are sentencing hearing were 287 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.879 very thin, and so in a way, inevitably she was 288 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:39.399 sentenced to death by the judge. 289 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:44.360 What was the situation in terms of death penalty sentences 290 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.639 for juveniles in Indiana previous to this. 291 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:50.240 It was a rarity. You know, this was a rare event, 292 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:53.120 and certainly for a girl to be sentenced to death 293 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:58.879 made it even more extraordinary. However, on the books in Indiana, 294 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.519 what this case revealed to the public is that it 295 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.200 was possible for someone as young as ten years old 296 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.880 to be sentenced to death. That was state law. No 297 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:12.799 one had looked closely at this and which is really 298 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:17.599 mind blowing. A local representative in Gary named Earlene Rodgers, 299 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.279 the day after Paula's death sentence made all these headlines locally, 300 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.599 she publicly made a statement, did not miss a beach. 301 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:27.839 She said, you know, the first thing I'm going to 302 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.359 do in the next Assembly session is I'm going to 303 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:32.519 introduce a bill that's going to raise the minimum age 304 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:35.640 for the death sentence in the state of Indiana because 305 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:38.359 we may not agree on everything, but I'm pretty sure 306 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.519 we can agree that we shouldn't be killing kids. That 307 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.359 was her statement. And she's such an extraordinary figure. There 308 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.240 are all these great characters in this book, real life characters. 309 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:49.079 She was a public school teacher, she'd been a public 310 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:51.839 school teacher for about twenty years at that point in 311 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.200 her forties, ran for public office and was really proud 312 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.279 to be representing Gary. But she had this special perspective, 313 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:01.759 which was, you know, I work with young teenagers every day. 314 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:05.480 I have teenage kids myself. She had a daughter who 315 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:08.240 was Paula's age, and she said, you know, this is 316 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:13.200 wild to be trying to treat kids that age as 317 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:17.000 if they're as culpable as an adult in that situation. 318 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.759 The death sentence should not be on the table. And 319 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:25.079 so she jumped into the story. So you have little 320 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.880 by little people started responding to this death sentence in 321 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:31.559 passionate ways. So, I mean, I don't know if we 322 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:33.400 should get into Bill Pelke's role. 323 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:36.359 Well, yes, you introduced a central figure to this story 324 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:41.000 is Bill Pelke. Who is he to Ruth? And what 325 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:43.480 happens one day to Bill? 326 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:46.880 So Bill was Ruth Pelk's grandson, who at the time 327 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.160 of the crime was thirty nine years old. We meet 328 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.960 him at first sort of in passing. He shows up 329 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.920 in court for Paula Cooper sentencing. He's in favor of 330 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:57.559 the death penalty in this case, like the rest of 331 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:01.799 his family, and that's that justice has been served. A 332 00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:05.119 couple months go by, though, and Bill's going through a 333 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:07.480 lot of turmoil in his personal life. Not only is 334 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:10.960 he still grieving his grandmother, but his relationship with his 335 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:14.599 girlfriend is falling apart. He has had to declare bankruptcy 336 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:19.519 because of some bad decisions. He feels lost and directionless. 337 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:22.640 And he was someone who was a crane operator in 338 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:25.319 a local steel mill. That was his job day and 339 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.480 day out for almost twenty years. At that point, he 340 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:31.319 wasn't someone who asked big questions about the world. He 341 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.279 didn't think of himself as political or you know, like 342 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:36.440 someone who's going to make a big statement in public 343 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.880 about an issue. But he was up in the crane 344 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.759 in the steel mill one night, and you know, the 345 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.000 warehouse was dead. He was doing a late shift and 346 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.400 he started kind of having a breakdown. He finds himself 347 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:51.279 crying just thinking about the state of his life. And 348 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:55.319 he has a moment where he suddenly pictures Paula Cooper, 349 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:59.000 pictures this kid's face. He'd only seen her one time, 350 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:01.599 it was that day in when she was sentenced to death, 351 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.359 but he pictures her now on death row. You know, 352 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:07.359 he's not sure what it would look like, but it's 353 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:10.960 got to be some terrible small cell kind of roughly 354 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.000 the same size as the crane that he's operating, that 355 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.920 crane cab. And he thinks, you know, I may feel alone, 356 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.039 and I may feel desperate, but there's someone I can 357 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:24.680 think of who's more desperate than me, and I bet 358 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:27.640 she is full of regret. And he thinks about his grandmother, 359 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:31.160 and he thinks about, my grandmother would not have wanted 360 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.799 the death sentence for this girl, to execute this kid 361 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.440 in her name as the form of justice. He's totally 362 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:42.319 rocked by this feeling, and he becomes completely convinced that 363 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:45.759 actually his grandmother would like him to extend some kind 364 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:49.039 of compassion towards this girl, and that what he needs 365 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.559 to do is to actually try to forgive her and 366 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.599 try to get her off death row. Not that she 367 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:58.799 shouldn't be severely punished, but that death is a step 368 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:01.000 too far. By the time time he gets down out 369 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:04.359 of that crane that night, he is truly a changed man, 370 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:06.759 like a man who suddenly has a purpose. And in 371 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.599 the morning he wakes up, he gets some paper and 372 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:12.480 he sits down and he just writes by hand a 373 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.920 letter to this girl on death row in Indianapolis who 374 00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:18.720 killed his grandmother. You know, he just tries to come 375 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:20.799 up with something to say, and he puts it in 376 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:24.160 the mail, and he waits and it's the beginning of 377 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:30.000 truly an incredible relationship that starts up between the two 378 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:33.559 of them against all odds. And I had the incredible 379 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:38.079 experience of reading hundreds and hundreds of letters between the 380 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.279 two of them that took place over years, and to 381 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:46.240 see this really fraud relationship evolve was for me, it 382 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:48.240 was the stuff of great novels. 383 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:54.720 You introduce a bunch of other instrumental characters, including Monica Foster, 384 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:58.200 tell us about some of the people that assemble, and 385 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:03.240 was very very interesting too and surprising that the initial judge, 386 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:08.640 Judge Kimbrow, the situation that he considered himself put into 387 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.559 in the judging of and the sentencing of Paula Cooper. 388 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:16.000 But now he does something behind the scenes because he 389 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:19.359 has he feels something about the judgment that he says 390 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.480 he was he was coerced into doing, or something about 391 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:23.400 along those lines. 392 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.920 Judge kimbre Isn't to me was an incredible person to 393 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:31.759 learn about. He was at the time in his late 394 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:36.160 forties early fifties. He had been the first black public 395 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:39.319 defender in Lake County. He'd been the first black criminal 396 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:44.160 court judge in Lake County, possibly in Indiana. At the time. 397 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:48.000 It was a big deal that he'd made those leaps. 398 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:51.680 And he was a liberal. Lake County was you know, 399 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.759 it's always been this kind of blue bubble in a 400 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.839 very red state. But to be a Democrat in Lake 401 00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:59.559