WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.399 Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an 2 00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:04.719 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 3 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:07.639 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.359 counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That 5 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:12.919 is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. 6 00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:16.359 Chumbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games 7 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.519 you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses. 8 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:23.079 That's your brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot, so 9 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:26.480 sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck 10 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:27.359 Casino dot com. 11 00:00:27.399 --> 00:00:30.160 No perks necessary daily where everybody lost the terms conditions beating. 12 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:40.679 Plus, you are now listening to True Murder the most 13 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:44.039 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 14 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:45.079 have written about them. 15 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:52.320 Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker VCK every Week, another 16 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:56.240 fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers 17 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:00.759 in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist 18 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:12.359 and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 19 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:17.879 In two thousand and sixteen twenty seventeen, while working for 20 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:23.400 the USA Today's Networks Wisconsin Investigative Team, author John Ferrick 21 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:27.959 wrote dozens of articles examining the murder case against Stephen Avery, 22 00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:31.519 who had already beaten one wrongful conviction, only to be 23 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:35.040 charged again with the murder of Teresa Halback in two 24 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:38.920 thousand and five. This case captured global attention through the 25 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:44.120 Netflix documentary Making a Murderer. In this anniversary edition of 26 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:48.560 Wrecking Crew Demolishing the Case against Stephen Avery, Ferrick not 27 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:52.959 only lays out in meticulous detail the post conviction strategy 28 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.319 of Kathleen Zelner, the high profile, high octane lawyer fighting 29 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:01.799 to free Avery, but also includes a five years later section. 30 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:07.319 This update provides fresh insights and developments in Avery's ongoing 31 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:13.159 legal battle. Additionally, this special edition features an exclusive epilogue 32 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:17.000 a November twenty twenty three interview with Stephen Avery. For 33 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:22.599 this book, Zelmer, arguably America's most successful wrongful conviction attorney, 34 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:27.680 granted Ferrik unprecedented access to the exhaustive pro bono efforts 35 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.719 she in her small suburban Chicago law firm have invested 36 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:34.599 in a man she believes to be wrongfully ensnared by 37 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:40.400 Manitoua Counties on scrupulous justice system. This anniversary edition offers 38 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:44.240 new revelations and a comprehensive look at a case that 39 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:49.000 continues to stir public debate and demand justice. The book 40 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.000 that we're featuring this evening is Wrecking Crew Demolishing the 41 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:57.759 Case against Stephen Avery, with my special guest, investigative journalist 42 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:01.639 and author John Ferrick. Welcome to the program, and thank 43 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:04.479 you very much for this interview. Welcome back, John Ferick. 44 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:06.319 Thanks for having me again, Dan appreciate it. 45 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.000 Thank you very much for this for coming on and 46 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:12.319 talking about Wrecking Crew Demolishing the Case against Steven Avery. 47 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:18.240 Let's talk about this updated fifth anniversary edition, including exclusive 48 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:23.280 interview with Stephen Avery. Let's go back to the reason 49 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:26.680 for the updated version. What's included in this updated version 50 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:29.319 before we get down to the details. 51 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:32.479 Well, with the fbid version here and again, it's been 52 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:36.599 five years since Wrecking CREWD come out and also ironically 53 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:39.919 five years since the last season two for Making a 54 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.960 Murder that came out in October of twenty eighteen, and 55 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.199 then the Wrecking Crew Update the following month November of 56 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:49.960 twenty eighteen, and there have been a number of developments 57 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.199 so the last five years, really in the last couple 58 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:55.039 of years, and that's what motivated me in Wild Blue 59 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:57.639 Press to really want to push forward Dan with this 60 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:02.479 update version. Here the key facts that came forward after 61 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:05.000 my book and after Making Murder just totally out of 62 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.080 nowhere was the discovery of an eyewitness who actually was 63 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:12.439 a newspaper delivery driver and he had seen information pointing 64 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:15.800 to an alternative suspect, somebody other than Steven Avery that 65 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:19.279 may have been involved in Treesa Hallbuck's murder, but certainly 66 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:25.040 was involved instrumental in having access and handling her vehicle 67 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:28.360 in the hours before that vehicle was discovered, which was 68 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.720 a couple of days they should say, several days after 69 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.399 she had already gone missing. That's a key component of 70 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:36.240 the book update for Wrecking Crew. There was also a 71 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:39.879 case the defamation lawsuit out of Making a Murder by 72 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:43.000 one of the Mantwah County Sheriff's deputies who was a 73 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:46.639 central figure in Making a Murder Season one and two, 74 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:50.519 and he filed a federal lawsuit against the producers and 75 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:51.879 against Netflix. 76 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:54.439 And that case finally worked its way through the court. 77 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:57.480 System over these last several years and the decision was 78 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:02.240 made whether or not making a Murder was in committing defamation. 79 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:03.519 Against a sheriff's official. 80 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:05.720 So that was a key update in the book as well, 81 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:09.839 And another important point of the book was just having 82 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:13.439 access to Stephen Avery through his attorney, Kathleen Zelener, and 83 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:16.680 being able to do like the interview with him to 84 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:19.879 kind of find out where he's at mentally and physically 85 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.600 in prison right now, and you know, what's going through 86 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:24.680 his mind, what kind of hopes does he still have 87 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:29.120 hopes of getting out? Has he been distraught, angry, frustrated 88 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:31.800 the fact that he hasn't gotten out in light of 89 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:35.519 all the efforts by Kathleen Zelener to uncover evidence pointing 90 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:40.120 to two alternative suspects, uncover evidence, you know, of evidence 91 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:43.759 being fabricated or tampered with by the sheriff's officials and 92 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:47.920 the prosecution possibly withholding evidence that could have been exculpatory 93 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.360 for he and his lawyers for the original trial. So 94 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:54.519 those are all several of the key updates. I also 95 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:56.680 did kind of a little bit of a human interest 96 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:59.360 element of the book. There's been so many people dan 97 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:01.959 since Making a Murder came out, just people all over 98 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:04.279 the world that have taken an interest in the case, 99 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:06.959 and so I decided the focusing on one individual has 100 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.360 kind of become a folk hero, folk artist on the 101 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:11.720 music side of things, and he's written a couple dozen 102 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:15.040 songs about the making a murder case, all from the 103 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:19.040 Steven Avery and Brendan Dacy's vantage point from a social 104 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.399 justice perspective. So we kind of really drilled down one 105 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:26.279 song in particular that really looked at the evidence tampering 106 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:28.920 of the case and kind of examined why he wrote 107 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:29.360 that song. 108 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:34.600 Let's talk take us to the judge Angela Sutkuwitz and 109 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.839 you talk about her record, you talk about Judge Willis's 110 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:42.160 retirement after the case in twenty sixteen, Zelner gets involved 111 00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:46.160 after watching Netflix incredibly after being contacted by Avery, but 112 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:50.319 after watching Netflix, Zelner, Kathleen Zelner and her firm get 113 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:54.160 involved after in twenty sixteen, So tell us about the 114 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:59.040 bid for an appeal and this judge Subkowitz. 115 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:02.519 Well again for background for everybody, Dan, I mean, Kathleen 116 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:06.319 Zelener's one of the kind of the world heavyweight champions 117 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:09.279 as far as being a prize fighter on the wrongful 118 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.279 conviction movement. She's had a couple dozen very well known, 119 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:16.079 high profile cases where she's been able to get people 120 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.079 from all walks of life, people that came from families 121 00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:20.959 that were well to do and other people that just 122 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:23.399 came from the streets and really had no family. But 123 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:26.279 she's taken up the crusade for people that she only 124 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.879 takes on cases that she is one hundred percent convinced 125 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:31.639 in their innocence. She walks away from cases and has 126 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:34.240 nothing to do with it if she has any hint 127 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.160 or suspicion or belief that the person's lying to her 128 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:40.800 or trying to manipulate her into believing that the person's 129 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:43.759 innocent when they aren't. Fay guilty of murders. So she's 130 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:47.199 had incredible success over the last thirty plus years as 131 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.759 a wrongful conviction lawyer. So she got involved in Stephen 132 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:53.639 Avers case literally from watching Making a Murderer And you know, 133 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:55.920 unbeknownst to her at the time, but yes, Stephen had 134 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.560 Stephen Avery had written her previously trying to reach out 135 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.079 to her to consider taking up his case while he's 136 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.519 in prisoned. So she's spent now. I mean this month 137 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.360 is I think today or tomorrow, So the anniversary is 138 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:11.720 the first week of January. I'm pretty sure, Dan, But 139 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.759 she took up the case in his crusade January of 140 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:18.319 twenty sixteen, so eight years now, Wow, she's been involved 141 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:20.639 in his case for eight years, which sounds like a 142 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:22.879 long time, and it is a long time, but in 143 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.079 the wrongful conviction movement, it's probably part of the course. 144 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:29.079 So she's had cases that have taken her far far 145 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.920 a lot longer to win. And she and her firm 146 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.919 and her team of private investigators have put a ton 147 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.000 of money and time and energy all on their own 148 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:42.399 researching Stephen Avery and looking at the evidence, looking at 149 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:46.120 alternative suspects, looking at the original trial testimony, and so 150 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.399 over these last eight years, and she's uncovered what she 151 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:53.279 believes is a long and strong track record that points 152 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:57.080 to an alternative suspect. Suspects plural, but she's really zeroed 153 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:00.000 in one individual, Dan and also a lot of evidence 154 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:04.360 that she believes was mishandled or fabricated, tampered with, or 155 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:07.679 withheld from the original lawyers for Stephen Avery at the 156 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.279 time of his trial. And again, she's put eight years 157 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.799 into the case so far, and in the court of 158 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:18.080 a public opinion, it's probably ninety to ninety five percent 159 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.519 in her favor, in Stephen Avery's favor, But as we 160 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:24.799 all know, it really comes down to the judge that 161 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.440 happens to be assigned to the case. And as you mentioned, 162 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:32.080 Angela Suckowitz had been the judge already previously assigned to 163 00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:37.399 Steven Avery's case after Judge Mantwah County Judge Patrick Willis 164 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.559 had retired from the bench several years ago, so Judge Suckowitz, 165 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:45.000 who's from neighboring Sheboygan County. Boygan's about a hour away 166 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:47.559 from Mantwack, but she was assigned the case and she's 167 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:51.679 handled it over these last several years, and time after 168 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:54.720 time after time after time, all of the rulings, all 169 00:09:54.759 --> 00:09:58.639 the post conviction rulings that Zellner has filed and waited 170 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.320 for a decision suck with on whether or not she 171 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:04.840 could get a new trial for Steven Avery or just 172 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:07.720 get Stephen Avery back into a courtroom to do an 173 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.080 evidentiary hearing, which is basically a mini trial of sorts. 174 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:15.600 And every opportunity Zelner has walked into a closed door 175 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:19.080 and just suck with, just time after time, always has 176 00:10:19.159 --> 00:10:22.399 ruled against Stephen Avery on his post conviction appeals. 177 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.200 In this last hearing in front of the judge, what 178 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:28.720 were the main issues that she brought up? We talked 179 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.799 before this episode about a few people that came up 180 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:36.840 and their testimony very interestingly supports what Zelder and her 181 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:39.600 team are have put forth. And one of those is 182 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.159 Kevin Romlove. And you talk about a text sent to 183 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.320 Scott Taggach back way back that he had seen the 184 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.600 rav four at a turnabout, but he did not respond 185 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:52.919 to the text from this Kevin Ramlov that night. Tell 186 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:56.919 us about what else Kevin Ramlov does and how Kathleen 187 00:10:57.039 --> 00:10:58.559 zem there gets wind of all of this. 188 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:01.679 Well, it's gonna say go back with Ramlow. He was 189 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:04.360 one of those individuals stand that they came forward after 190 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.720 making a murder. And like you said, he was one 191 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:10.840 of those persons that he remembered going to one of 192 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:13.919 the gas stations kind of on the outskirts of Mattwak. 193 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:15.559 It was actually outside of Michigan. 194 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:19.679 He was there. He remembered seeing the Treesa Halbach missing 195 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.440 Persons posters right within the short time period of her 196 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.720 going missing. And Ramlah was certain that while he was 197 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.480 around that gas station that he had encountered a member 198 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:33.440 of the Mattwak Sheriff's office, and it was pretty certain 199 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:36.120 that it had to be of all people, Andy Colburn 200 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.600 who everybody that's watched Making a Murderer and familiar with 201 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.200 Regging Crew knows that he's one of the key central 202 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.679 figures in the whole Stephen Avery case and actually going 203 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:47.759 way back to the beginning of Steven Avery's first wrongful 204 00:11:47.799 --> 00:11:50.320 conviction case, when Colburn was in the early days of 205 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:54.080 his sheriff's duties working in the jail. So there's a long, long, 206 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:57.600 long history with Andy Colburn and Steven Avery. And again, 207 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:01.000 as you brought up with Ramlow was pretty certain that 208 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.759 he had seen this Andy Colburn on what was probably 209 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.679 supposed to be Andy Colbran's day off of work and 210 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:11.960 saw nonetheless at this gas station property. And so Ramblow 211 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:15.159 was one of those first persons that Zellner had uncovered 212 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:19.039 that really helped solidify and kind of changed the narrative 213 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:23.799 as far as the possibility and probability that Teresa Halbik 214 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:28.320 did in fact leave Stephen Avery's property, the Avery salvage 215 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:32.919 Yard alive on Halloween afternoon, October thirty first of two 216 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.799 thousand and five. The narrative that Stephen Avery was convicted 217 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.559 on at trial by ken Kratz was that Teresa Habbak 218 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:42.320 came to the Avery property early that afternoon to do 219 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:45.559 a photo shoot for one of the vehicles at Avery 220 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.399 and his family was trying to sell, and that she 221 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.000 was murdered on the property by Steven Avery and never 222 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:56.480 left the property, whereas Kevin Ramblow is one of those 223 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:00.200 key figures that comes forward and signs of Affidavid gives 224 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.000 a statement to Zelener testifying to the fact Dan that 225 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.440 he strongly believes that he did, in fact see Teresa 226 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:08.600 Holbuck's vehicle the turquoise colored green. 227 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:09.000 Yeah. 228 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.000 I mean, it depends on the sunlight. There was all 229 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:14.080 kinds of conspiracy theories about the vehicle, d Zelener and 230 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:16.559 I both believe aren't true. But nonetheless we'll just say 231 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:19.320 it's a turquoise cover colored rap four, but that it 232 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:23.440 was seen at this turnaround area on the outskirts of Michigan, 233 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:27.639 and so Ramlow was important and at least verifying the 234 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.320 strong possibility that Allbuck did in fact leave the Avery 235 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:34.960 property and somehow met her demise and her death off site, 236 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:37.600 whether it was by Steven Avery or someone else. 237 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:39.960 This might be out of order, but tell us what 238 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:43.799 Tom Sewinsky says he saw and witnessed. Yeah. 239 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.559 Tom Szewinsky and that was kind of one of the 240 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:49.080 key points for updating the book Dan, because again when 241 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:50.840 I wrote Wrecking Crew five years ago, I didn't know 242 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:51.960 who Tom Sewinsky was. 243 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:55.559 He had never appeared Making a Murderer Season one or two. 244 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:58.159 So I was really intrigued when this guy came forward 245 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:00.639 because of the fact too, it did seemed like he 246 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:04.639 came forward either for publicity's sake or for notoriety or 247 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:07.120 fame or fortune at all. It was just he was 248 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.519 somebody that insisted that he had come forward back when 249 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:14.480 Teresa Habblck originally went missing, and Zelener and her investigators 250 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:17.000 had a devil of a time trying to do their 251 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:22.000 own research to verify his claims and insistence that he 252 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.159 did in that contact the Mantwak Sheriff's office back at 253 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.279 the time that Teresa Halblock went missing, insisting that he 254 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.519 had a tempt to pass along to them. So Swinsky 255 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.759 lives in Colorado now, and so he'd been gone from 256 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.679 Mantwak for several years. But back at the time when 257 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.559 Teresa Habbuck disappearing October of two thousand and five, he 258 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.720 was a newspaper delivery driver Iraqily for the company I 259 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:49.240 previously worked for two different times Briginnett Wisconsin Media, which 260 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.840 is part of the USA Today network. So he had 261 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.480 delivered newspapers apparently, and I had never met him when 262 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:56.159 he was an hour away from where I worked, but 263 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.919 he delivered newspapers for the Mantwalk Newspaper, and he came forward. 264 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:01.840 He gave an aff David in the last year or 265 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:04.559 two to Kathleen Zelener, testifying to the fact that he 266 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.120 was delivering his newspapers, you know, sometime round four four 267 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.960 thirty in the morning, while most of Wisconsin was sound asleep, 268 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.399 but that's when newspapers get delivered. And while he was 269 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:15.639 delivering those newspapers, he was getting close to the Avery property, 270 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:18.600 the averys salvage yard, and as he got closer, he 271 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:23.039 saw two people and one was not wearing a shirt 272 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.200 and probably because they were sweating from you know, the exertion. 273 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:30.120 But one of the individuals he was sure was Stephen 274 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:33.320 Avery's other nephew, the nephew that testified against him at 275 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.600 the trial, the one that was the star witness for 276 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.000 the prosecution dan and his name was Bobby Dacy. And 277 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:42.399 Sisky was not sure about the second individual. He had 278 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:47.320 some a detailed description about the person's character, their their build, 279 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:51.320 their beard, their physique, but he did not know the 280 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:54.639 name at all of the second person. But nonetheless he 281 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.039 was sure that he saw two individuals, one being Bobby 282 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.919 Dacy pushing a vehicle that basically mirrored you know, it 283 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:06.200 was identical to the vehicle that Teresa Hallbot had a 284 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:09.679 Round four that would later turn up five or six 285 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.720 hours later, actually about six hours later, that vehicle was 286 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:15.200 in big discovered on the outer edge of the Avery 287 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.240 sandwich yard, which anybody that's watched Making Murder would remember that. 288 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.639 It's a very dramatic scene and dramatic component of the 289 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:25.399 actual Stephen Avery trial. Woman named pampsterm that was out 290 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.519 there with her daughter and discovered the vehicle being it 291 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.679 was covered with a bunch of trees and branches, basically 292 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:34.039 the sense of a message just as you know, how 293 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.240 to find the vehicle rather than hiding the vehicle. But 294 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.759 like I said, so getting back to your original question 295 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.360 about Tom Swinsky, Yeah, he's he came out of nowhere 296 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:45.759 in the last couple of years insisting that that he 297 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.840 did in fact see that he was an eyewitness to 298 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.840 seeing Bobby Dascy and second person handling pushing the vehicle 299 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:57.279 the Teresa halbut the Auto Trader magazine photographer that disappeared 300 00:16:57.320 --> 00:16:59.919 and was murdered. And so I thought that this was 301 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:04.519 a huge revelation for this for this case, and Zelner 302 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:07.359 did as well. So she spent a considerable time of 303 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:12.160 researching Swinsky, probing his background, verifying that in fact did 304 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.440 work for Wisconsin Get News media and also tracked down 305 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.480 his employment record stand to verify that his story matched up. 306 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:22.000 And then after she proved that that was all true, 307 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.920 undertook the painstaking process that Dan of trying to actually 308 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:29.480 verify his insistence that he had in fact contacted the 309 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.839 Mantuak County Sheriff's office around the time of Teresa Halbeck's disappearance, 310 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:38.480 because Zelener had no police reports and she was not 311 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.559 aware of any audio, police radio, you know, that kind 312 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:44.720 of stuff that was in her possession at the time 313 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.880 that she had contacted and spoken with Tom Swinsky as 314 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:50.319 she was trying to verify his story. 315 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:54.200 What's very interesting, Kathleen Zelner is looking for all people 316 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:57.799 that might be the third party, people of interest, persons 317 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:02.160 of interest, and then the various vicious behavior of Ryan 318 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:07.559 Hilgilis Billigalis and the Teresa's roommate, as well as you say, 319 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:12.400 providing seam like direction, a camera and a phone number 320 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.799 to the sheriff in case they found something in their search. 321 00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:20.359 Ham Stem and her companion, so very suspicious behavior that 322 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:23.359 Kathleen Zelner has to consider as well when you're looking 323 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.640 for somebody other than the accused as the as the 324 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:28.200 killer of Teresa Helbach. 325 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:30.680 Right, And that's the key point too, is that one 326 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.720 of the challenges I think for Kathleen Zelner as she's 327 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.599 tried to delve into and prove what she does in 328 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:38.480 a lot of for wrongful conviction cases. That's one of 329 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.359 her strategies, even though I think I just watched show 330 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.559 on Netflix over the weekend where defense attorney was insisting 331 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:47.799 that lawyers shouldn't spend time trying to find alternative suspects 332 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.920 just you know, just prove that their client's not guilty. 333 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.160 But in Zelner's case, in a lot of other lawyer's case, 334 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:56.359 especially in the wrongful conviction arena, it really is important 335 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:59.160 to try to prove who else could have done it 336 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:02.000 and show that the evidence is much stronger against that 337 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:06.200 other person than the person you're representing. And as you 338 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:10.160 mentioned with Ryan Hilgis and Scott Blodoor, and both of 339 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:14.000 them had strong and deep connections to Teresa Halbuck, one 340 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.400 being a former boyfriend being Hilgis Blowdoorn lived with her 341 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:20.319 at the time that she was missing, and Blowdoorn didn't 342 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:23.759 immediately report her missing. Hilgus Is people that watch making 343 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:28.359 murderer notice and talked about at length on social media afterwards, 344 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.839 had several scratches on his arms at the time that 345 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.839 he was helping organize a lot of these missing person 346 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.759 searches for Teresa Hollbock, and he also really didn't have 347 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.960 a real good explanation to where his whereabouts two at 348 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.480 the time that she had disappeared. So there was definitely 349 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:47.000 reason to look at both of those individuals separately as 350 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.839 logical law suspects, you know, in addition to other people, 351 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.680 and like we talked about, both of them took a 352 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:57.200 lead role, in active role in helping organize these searches 353 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:00.599 that were going on to the point where things just 354 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.720 also seemed suspicious as far as the discovery of Trussa 355 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.640 Hallbuck's vehicle, the fact that it was found covered with trees, 356 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:12.279 and broken pieces of wood. In my mind, Dan, it 357 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:15.559 wasn't to hide the vehicle. It was done to send 358 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:18.039 a signal. It was basically like putting a flag over 359 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:21.640 it and saying this four thousand vehicles at this forty 360 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:25.400 acre every salvage yarde right Here's basically I can't tell 361 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.160 you talking like I'm Sheriff Pagel now, But basically he 362 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:31.559 didn't exactly tell Pam Storm, or I don't think that 363 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:33.839 he actually would have told Pam Storm walk out to 364 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:35.839 the very back part of the property and you'll find 365 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:37.559 it on the left or something like that. It would 366 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:40.960 have been probably conveyed to her by somebody else, possibly 367 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.960 along the lines if you'll know it when you see it. 368 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:46.279 And it basically was the only vehicle that was out 369 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:49.279 there that was covered with these odd pieces of trees. 370 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:52.400 That again, if you're Stephen Avery Dan or even Brendan 371 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:55.240 Dacy or the two of them working together, what's the 372 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.920 logic in actually covering the murder victim's vehicle with a 373 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.480 couple of tree branches and limbs. That doesn't hide anything, 374 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.079 It draws attention to it. And that's what happened here, 375 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.480 and that's how the vehicle was found. And as we 376 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:13.039 talked about earlier, Tom Swhisky, of all people newspaper carrier 377 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.279 is seeing Bobby Dancy in a second individual that's not 378 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.920 Stephen Avery or Bobby's brother Brendan, the two individuals convicted 379 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:22.720 of this crime, but he sees two individuals moving this 380 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:27.759 vehicle hours before Pam Sterman her daughter discover it. Very strange, 381 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:29.160 very strange you. 382 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.720 Had that Kathleen Zelln there decides early on to hire 383 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:37.519 the most renowned experts in their fields and their forensic fields, 384 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.279 in ballistics and blood spatter and in all kinds of 385 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:45.880 disciplines including least procedure and investigation you talk about that. 386 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:48.680 She brought in a person named John de Han, and 387 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.119 he's a fire and burn expert. Tell us what John 388 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:55.880 de Han concluded after looking at the evidence in the 389 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:58.640 burn pit and then the burn barrels and all the 390 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.559 evidence that the police purportedly had regarding that. 391 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:02.960 Yeah. 392 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.759 One of the key components again after at the time 393 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:11.000 of Stephen Avery's original trial, was the sensational notion that 394 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:16.119 Stephen Avery, after supposedly murdering Teresa Hallbuck inside of his trailer, 395 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:18.640 coing to prosecutor Ken Kratz and his story that he 396 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.559 had told and shared it a March two thousand and 397 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.200 six while the sensational press conference. 398 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:25.799 The story was so long line. 399 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:27.880 Since Stephen Avery had tied her up to his bed 400 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:31.160 and raped her and cut her up and then ultimately 401 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:36.319