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Speaker 4: and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 5: In two thousand and sixteen twenty seventeen, while working for
Speaker 5: the USA Today's Networks Wisconsin Investigative Team, author John Ferrick
Speaker 5: wrote dozens of articles examining the murder case against Stephen Avery,
Speaker 5: who had already beaten one wrongful conviction, only to be
Speaker 5: charged again with the murder of Teresa Halback in two
Speaker 5: thousand and five. This case captured global attention through the
Speaker 5: Netflix documentary Making a Murderer. In this anniversary edition of
Speaker 5: Wrecking Crew Demolishing the Case against Stephen Avery, Ferrick not
Speaker 5: only lays out in meticulous detail the post conviction strategy
Speaker 5: of Kathleen Zelner, the high profile, high octane lawyer fighting
Speaker 5: to free Avery, but also includes a five years later section.
Speaker 5: This update provides fresh insights and developments in Avery's ongoing
Speaker 5: legal battle. Additionally, this special edition features an exclusive epilogue
Speaker 5: a November twenty twenty three interview with Stephen Avery. For
Speaker 5: this book, Zelmer, arguably America's most successful wrongful conviction attorney,
Speaker 5: granted Ferrik unprecedented access to the exhaustive pro bono efforts
Speaker 5: she in her small suburban Chicago law firm have invested
Speaker 5: in a man she believes to be wrongfully ensnared by
Speaker 5: Manitoua Counties on scrupulous justice system. This anniversary edition offers
Speaker 5: new revelations and a comprehensive look at a case that
Speaker 5: continues to stir public debate and demand justice. The book
Speaker 5: that we're featuring this evening is Wrecking Crew Demolishing the
Speaker 5: Case against Stephen Avery, with my special guest, investigative journalist
Speaker 5: and author John Ferrick. Welcome to the program, and thank
Speaker 5: you very much for this interview. Welcome back, John Ferick.
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me again, Dan appreciate it.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for this for coming on and
Speaker 5: talking about Wrecking Crew Demolishing the Case against Steven Avery.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about this updated fifth anniversary edition, including exclusive
Speaker 5: interview with Stephen Avery. Let's go back to the reason
Speaker 5: for the updated version. What's included in this updated version
Speaker 5: before we get down to the details.
Speaker 7: Well, with the fbid version here and again, it's been
Speaker 7: five years since Wrecking CREWD come out and also ironically
Speaker 7: five years since the last season two for Making a
Speaker 7: Murder that came out in October of twenty eighteen, and
Speaker 7: then the Wrecking Crew Update the following month November of
Speaker 7: twenty eighteen, and there have been a number of developments
Speaker 7: so the last five years, really in the last couple
Speaker 7: of years, and that's what motivated me in Wild Blue
Speaker 7: Press to really want to push forward Dan with this
Speaker 7: update version. Here the key facts that came forward after
Speaker 7: my book and after Making Murder just totally out of
Speaker 7: nowhere was the discovery of an eyewitness who actually was
Speaker 7: a newspaper delivery driver and he had seen information pointing
Speaker 7: to an alternative suspect, somebody other than Steven Avery that
Speaker 7: may have been involved in Treesa Hallbuck's murder, but certainly
Speaker 7: was involved instrumental in having access and handling her vehicle
Speaker 7: in the hours before that vehicle was discovered, which was
Speaker 7: a couple of days they should say, several days after
Speaker 7: she had already gone missing. That's a key component of
Speaker 7: the book update for Wrecking Crew. There was also a
Speaker 7: case the defamation lawsuit out of Making a Murder by
Speaker 7: one of the Mantwah County Sheriff's deputies who was a
Speaker 7: central figure in Making a Murder Season one and two,
Speaker 7: and he filed a federal lawsuit against the producers and
Speaker 7: against Netflix.
Speaker 6: And that case finally worked its way through the court.
Speaker 7: System over these last several years and the decision was
Speaker 7: made whether or not making a Murder was in committing defamation.
Speaker 6: Against a sheriff's official.
Speaker 7: So that was a key update in the book as well,
Speaker 7: And another important point of the book was just having
Speaker 7: access to Stephen Avery through his attorney, Kathleen Zelener, and
Speaker 7: being able to do like the interview with him to
Speaker 7: kind of find out where he's at mentally and physically
Speaker 7: in prison right now, and you know, what's going through
Speaker 7: his mind, what kind of hopes does he still have
Speaker 7: hopes of getting out? Has he been distraught, angry, frustrated
Speaker 7: the fact that he hasn't gotten out in light of
Speaker 7: all the efforts by Kathleen Zelener to uncover evidence pointing
Speaker 7: to two alternative suspects, uncover evidence, you know, of evidence
Speaker 7: being fabricated or tampered with by the sheriff's officials and
Speaker 7: the prosecution possibly withholding evidence that could have been exculpatory
Speaker 7: for he and his lawyers for the original trial. So
Speaker 7: those are all several of the key updates. I also
Speaker 7: did kind of a little bit of a human interest
Speaker 7: element of the book. There's been so many people dan
Speaker 7: since Making a Murder came out, just people all over
Speaker 7: the world that have taken an interest in the case,
Speaker 7: and so I decided the focusing on one individual has
Speaker 7: kind of become a folk hero, folk artist on the
Speaker 7: music side of things, and he's written a couple dozen
Speaker 7: songs about the making a murder case, all from the
Speaker 7: Steven Avery and Brendan Dacy's vantage point from a social
Speaker 7: justice perspective. So we kind of really drilled down one
Speaker 7: song in particular that really looked at the evidence tampering
Speaker 7: of the case and kind of examined why he wrote
Speaker 7: that song.
Speaker 5: Let's talk take us to the judge Angela Sutkuwitz and
Speaker 5: you talk about her record, you talk about Judge Willis's
Speaker 5: retirement after the case in twenty sixteen, Zelner gets involved
Speaker 5: after watching Netflix incredibly after being contacted by Avery, but
Speaker 5: after watching Netflix, Zelner, Kathleen Zelner and her firm get
Speaker 5: involved after in twenty sixteen, So tell us about the
Speaker 5: bid for an appeal and this judge Subkowitz.
Speaker 7: Well again for background for everybody, Dan, I mean, Kathleen
Speaker 7: Zelener's one of the kind of the world heavyweight champions
Speaker 7: as far as being a prize fighter on the wrongful
Speaker 7: conviction movement. She's had a couple dozen very well known,
Speaker 7: high profile cases where she's been able to get people
Speaker 7: from all walks of life, people that came from families
Speaker 7: that were well to do and other people that just
Speaker 7: came from the streets and really had no family. But
Speaker 7: she's taken up the crusade for people that she only
Speaker 7: takes on cases that she is one hundred percent convinced
Speaker 7: in their innocence. She walks away from cases and has
Speaker 7: nothing to do with it if she has any hint
Speaker 7: or suspicion or belief that the person's lying to her
Speaker 7: or trying to manipulate her into believing that the person's
Speaker 7: innocent when they aren't. Fay guilty of murders. So she's
Speaker 7: had incredible success over the last thirty plus years as
Speaker 7: a wrongful conviction lawyer. So she got involved in Stephen
Speaker 7: Avers case literally from watching Making a Murderer And you know,
Speaker 7: unbeknownst to her at the time, but yes, Stephen had
Speaker 7: Stephen Avery had written her previously trying to reach out
Speaker 7: to her to consider taking up his case while he's
Speaker 7: in prisoned. So she's spent now. I mean this month
Speaker 7: is I think today or tomorrow, So the anniversary is
Speaker 7: the first week of January. I'm pretty sure, Dan, But
Speaker 7: she took up the case in his crusade January of
Speaker 7: twenty sixteen, so eight years now, Wow, she's been involved
Speaker 7: in his case for eight years, which sounds like a
Speaker 7: long time, and it is a long time, but in
Speaker 7: the wrongful conviction movement, it's probably part of the course.
Speaker 7: So she's had cases that have taken her far far
Speaker 7: a lot longer to win. And she and her firm
Speaker 7: and her team of private investigators have put a ton
Speaker 7: of money and time and energy all on their own
Speaker 7: researching Stephen Avery and looking at the evidence, looking at
Speaker 7: alternative suspects, looking at the original trial testimony, and so
Speaker 7: over these last eight years, and she's uncovered what she
Speaker 7: believes is a long and strong track record that points
Speaker 7: to an alternative suspect. Suspects plural, but she's really zeroed
Speaker 7: in one individual, Dan and also a lot of evidence
Speaker 7: that she believes was mishandled or fabricated, tampered with, or
Speaker 7: withheld from the original lawyers for Stephen Avery at the
Speaker 7: time of his trial. And again, she's put eight years
Speaker 7: into the case so far, and in the court of
Speaker 7: a public opinion, it's probably ninety to ninety five percent
Speaker 7: in her favor, in Stephen Avery's favor, But as we
Speaker 7: all know, it really comes down to the judge that
Speaker 7: happens to be assigned to the case. And as you mentioned,
Speaker 7: Angela Suckowitz had been the judge already previously assigned to
Speaker 7: Steven Avery's case after Judge Mantwah County Judge Patrick Willis
Speaker 7: had retired from the bench several years ago, so Judge Suckowitz,
Speaker 7: who's from neighboring Sheboygan County. Boygan's about a hour away
Speaker 7: from Mantwack, but she was assigned the case and she's
Speaker 7: handled it over these last several years, and time after
Speaker 7: time after time after time, all of the rulings, all
Speaker 7: the post conviction rulings that Zellner has filed and waited
Speaker 7: for a decision suck with on whether or not she
Speaker 7: could get a new trial for Steven Avery or just
Speaker 7: get Stephen Avery back into a courtroom to do an
Speaker 7: evidentiary hearing, which is basically a mini trial of sorts.
Speaker 7: And every opportunity Zelner has walked into a closed door
Speaker 7: and just suck with, just time after time, always has
Speaker 7: ruled against Stephen Avery on his post conviction appeals.
Speaker 5: In this last hearing in front of the judge, what
Speaker 5: were the main issues that she brought up? We talked
Speaker 5: before this episode about a few people that came up
Speaker 5: and their testimony very interestingly supports what Zelder and her
Speaker 5: team are have put forth. And one of those is
Speaker 5: Kevin Romlove. And you talk about a text sent to
Speaker 5: Scott Taggach back way back that he had seen the
Speaker 5: rav four at a turnabout, but he did not respond
Speaker 5: to the text from this Kevin Ramlov that night. Tell
Speaker 5: us about what else Kevin Ramlov does and how Kathleen
Speaker 5: zem there gets wind of all of this.
Speaker 7: Well, it's gonna say go back with Ramlow. He was
Speaker 7: one of those individuals stand that they came forward after
Speaker 7: making a murder. And like you said, he was one
Speaker 7: of those persons that he remembered going to one of
Speaker 7: the gas stations kind of on the outskirts of Mattwak.
Speaker 6: It was actually outside of Michigan.
Speaker 7: He was there. He remembered seeing the Treesa Halbach missing
Speaker 7: Persons posters right within the short time period of her
Speaker 7: going missing. And Ramlah was certain that while he was
Speaker 7: around that gas station that he had encountered a member
Speaker 7: of the Mattwak Sheriff's office, and it was pretty certain
Speaker 7: that it had to be of all people, Andy Colburn
Speaker 7: who everybody that's watched Making a Murderer and familiar with
Speaker 7: Regging Crew knows that he's one of the key central
Speaker 7: figures in the whole Stephen Avery case and actually going
Speaker 7: way back to the beginning of Steven Avery's first wrongful
Speaker 7: conviction case, when Colburn was in the early days of
Speaker 7: his sheriff's duties working in the jail. So there's a long, long,
Speaker 7: long history with Andy Colburn and Steven Avery. And again,
Speaker 7: as you brought up with Ramlow was pretty certain that
Speaker 7: he had seen this Andy Colburn on what was probably
Speaker 7: supposed to be Andy Colbran's day off of work and
Speaker 7: saw nonetheless at this gas station property. And so Ramblow
Speaker 7: was one of those first persons that Zellner had uncovered
Speaker 7: that really helped solidify and kind of changed the narrative
Speaker 7: as far as the possibility and probability that Teresa Halbik
Speaker 7: did in fact leave Stephen Avery's property, the Avery salvage
Speaker 7: Yard alive on Halloween afternoon, October thirty first of two
Speaker 7: thousand and five. The narrative that Stephen Avery was convicted
Speaker 7: on at trial by ken Kratz was that Teresa Habbak
Speaker 7: came to the Avery property early that afternoon to do
Speaker 7: a photo shoot for one of the vehicles at Avery
Speaker 7: and his family was trying to sell, and that she
Speaker 7: was murdered on the property by Steven Avery and never
Speaker 7: left the property, whereas Kevin Ramblow is one of those
Speaker 7: key figures that comes forward and signs of Affidavid gives
Speaker 7: a statement to Zelener testifying to the fact Dan that
Speaker 7: he strongly believes that he did, in fact see Teresa
Speaker 7: Holbuck's vehicle the turquoise colored green.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I mean, it depends on the sunlight. There was all
Speaker 7: kinds of conspiracy theories about the vehicle, d Zelener and
Speaker 7: I both believe aren't true. But nonetheless we'll just say
Speaker 7: it's a turquoise cover colored rap four, but that it
Speaker 7: was seen at this turnaround area on the outskirts of Michigan,
Speaker 7: and so Ramlow was important and at least verifying the
Speaker 7: strong possibility that Allbuck did in fact leave the Avery
Speaker 7: property and somehow met her demise and her death off site,
Speaker 7: whether it was by Steven Avery or someone else.
Speaker 5: This might be out of order, but tell us what
Speaker 5: Tom Sewinsky says he saw and witnessed. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Tom Szewinsky and that was kind of one of the
Speaker 7: key points for updating the book Dan, because again when
Speaker 7: I wrote Wrecking Crew five years ago, I didn't know
Speaker 7: who Tom Sewinsky was.
Speaker 6: He had never appeared Making a Murderer Season one or two.
Speaker 7: So I was really intrigued when this guy came forward
Speaker 7: because of the fact too, it did seemed like he
Speaker 7: came forward either for publicity's sake or for notoriety or
Speaker 7: fame or fortune at all. It was just he was
Speaker 7: somebody that insisted that he had come forward back when
Speaker 7: Teresa Habblck originally went missing, and Zelener and her investigators
Speaker 7: had a devil of a time trying to do their
Speaker 7: own research to verify his claims and insistence that he
Speaker 7: did in that contact the Mantwak Sheriff's office back at
Speaker 7: the time that Teresa Halblock went missing, insisting that he
Speaker 7: had a tempt to pass along to them. So Swinsky
Speaker 7: lives in Colorado now, and so he'd been gone from
Speaker 7: Mantwak for several years. But back at the time when
Speaker 7: Teresa Habbuck disappearing October of two thousand and five, he
Speaker 7: was a newspaper delivery driver Iraqily for the company I
Speaker 7: previously worked for two different times Briginnett Wisconsin Media, which
Speaker 7: is part of the USA Today network. So he had
Speaker 7: delivered newspapers apparently, and I had never met him when
Speaker 7: he was an hour away from where I worked, but
Speaker 7: he delivered newspapers for the Mantwalk Newspaper, and he came forward.
Speaker 7: He gave an aff David in the last year or
Speaker 7: two to Kathleen Zelener, testifying to the fact that he
Speaker 7: was delivering his newspapers, you know, sometime round four four
Speaker 7: thirty in the morning, while most of Wisconsin was sound asleep,
Speaker 7: but that's when newspapers get delivered. And while he was
Speaker 7: delivering those newspapers, he was getting close to the Avery property,
Speaker 7: the averys salvage yard, and as he got closer, he
Speaker 7: saw two people and one was not wearing a shirt
Speaker 7: and probably because they were sweating from you know, the exertion.
Speaker 7: But one of the individuals he was sure was Stephen
Speaker 7: Avery's other nephew, the nephew that testified against him at
Speaker 7: the trial, the one that was the star witness for
Speaker 7: the prosecution dan and his name was Bobby Dacy. And
Speaker 7: Sisky was not sure about the second individual. He had
Speaker 7: some a detailed description about the person's character, their their build,
Speaker 7: their beard, their physique, but he did not know the
Speaker 7: name at all of the second person. But nonetheless he
Speaker 7: was sure that he saw two individuals, one being Bobby
Speaker 7: Dacy pushing a vehicle that basically mirrored you know, it
Speaker 7: was identical to the vehicle that Teresa Hallbot had a
Speaker 7: Round four that would later turn up five or six
Speaker 7: hours later, actually about six hours later, that vehicle was
Speaker 7: in big discovered on the outer edge of the Avery
Speaker 7: sandwich yard, which anybody that's watched Making Murder would remember that.
Speaker 7: It's a very dramatic scene and dramatic component of the
Speaker 7: actual Stephen Avery trial. Woman named pampsterm that was out
Speaker 7: there with her daughter and discovered the vehicle being it
Speaker 7: was covered with a bunch of trees and branches, basically
Speaker 7: the sense of a message just as you know, how
Speaker 7: to find the vehicle rather than hiding the vehicle. But
Speaker 7: like I said, so getting back to your original question
Speaker 7: about Tom Swinsky, Yeah, he's he came out of nowhere
Speaker 7: in the last couple of years insisting that that he
Speaker 7: did in fact see that he was an eyewitness to
Speaker 7: seeing Bobby Dascy and second person handling pushing the vehicle
Speaker 7: the Teresa halbut the Auto Trader magazine photographer that disappeared
Speaker 7: and was murdered. And so I thought that this was
Speaker 7: a huge revelation for this for this case, and Zelner
Speaker 7: did as well. So she spent a considerable time of
Speaker 7: researching Swinsky, probing his background, verifying that in fact did
Speaker 7: work for Wisconsin Get News media and also tracked down
Speaker 7: his employment record stand to verify that his story matched up.
Speaker 7: And then after she proved that that was all true,
Speaker 7: undertook the painstaking process that Dan of trying to actually
Speaker 7: verify his insistence that he had in fact contacted the
Speaker 7: Mantuak County Sheriff's office around the time of Teresa Halbeck's disappearance,
Speaker 7: because Zelener had no police reports and she was not
Speaker 7: aware of any audio, police radio, you know, that kind
Speaker 7: of stuff that was in her possession at the time
Speaker 7: that she had contacted and spoken with Tom Swinsky as
Speaker 7: she was trying to verify his story.
Speaker 5: What's very interesting, Kathleen Zelner is looking for all people
Speaker 5: that might be the third party, people of interest, persons
Speaker 5: of interest, and then the various vicious behavior of Ryan
Speaker 5: Hilgilis Billigalis and the Teresa's roommate, as well as you say,
Speaker 5: providing seam like direction, a camera and a phone number
Speaker 5: to the sheriff in case they found something in their search.
Speaker 5: Ham Stem and her companion, so very suspicious behavior that
Speaker 5: Kathleen Zelner has to consider as well when you're looking
Speaker 5: for somebody other than the accused as the as the
Speaker 5: killer of Teresa Helbach.
Speaker 7: Right, And that's the key point too, is that one
Speaker 7: of the challenges I think for Kathleen Zelner as she's
Speaker 7: tried to delve into and prove what she does in
Speaker 7: a lot of for wrongful conviction cases. That's one of
Speaker 7: her strategies, even though I think I just watched show
Speaker 7: on Netflix over the weekend where defense attorney was insisting
Speaker 7: that lawyers shouldn't spend time trying to find alternative suspects
Speaker 7: just you know, just prove that their client's not guilty.
Speaker 7: But in Zelner's case, in a lot of other lawyer's case,
Speaker 7: especially in the wrongful conviction arena, it really is important
Speaker 7: to try to prove who else could have done it
Speaker 7: and show that the evidence is much stronger against that
Speaker 7: other person than the person you're representing. And as you
Speaker 7: mentioned with Ryan Hilgis and Scott Blodoor, and both of
Speaker 7: them had strong and deep connections to Teresa Halbuck, one
Speaker 7: being a former boyfriend being Hilgis Blowdoorn lived with her
Speaker 7: at the time that she was missing, and Blowdoorn didn't
Speaker 7: immediately report her missing. Hilgus Is people that watch making
Speaker 7: murderer notice and talked about at length on social media afterwards,
Speaker 7: had several scratches on his arms at the time that
Speaker 7: he was helping organize a lot of these missing person
Speaker 7: searches for Teresa Hollbock, and he also really didn't have
Speaker 7: a real good explanation to where his whereabouts two at
Speaker 7: the time that she had disappeared. So there was definitely
Speaker 7: reason to look at both of those individuals separately as
Speaker 7: logical law suspects, you know, in addition to other people,
Speaker 7: and like we talked about, both of them took a
Speaker 7: lead role, in active role in helping organize these searches
Speaker 7: that were going on to the point where things just
Speaker 7: also seemed suspicious as far as the discovery of Trussa
Speaker 7: Hallbuck's vehicle, the fact that it was found covered with trees,
Speaker 7: and broken pieces of wood. In my mind, Dan, it
Speaker 7: wasn't to hide the vehicle. It was done to send
Speaker 7: a signal. It was basically like putting a flag over
Speaker 7: it and saying this four thousand vehicles at this forty
Speaker 7: acre every salvage yarde right Here's basically I can't tell
Speaker 7: you talking like I'm Sheriff Pagel now, But basically he
Speaker 7: didn't exactly tell Pam Storm, or I don't think that
Speaker 7: he actually would have told Pam Storm walk out to
Speaker 7: the very back part of the property and you'll find
Speaker 7: it on the left or something like that. It would
Speaker 7: have been probably conveyed to her by somebody else, possibly
Speaker 7: along the lines if you'll know it when you see it.
Speaker 7: And it basically was the only vehicle that was out
Speaker 7: there that was covered with these odd pieces of trees.
Speaker 7: That again, if you're Stephen Avery Dan or even Brendan
Speaker 7: Dacy or the two of them working together, what's the
Speaker 7: logic in actually covering the murder victim's vehicle with a
Speaker 7: couple of tree branches and limbs. That doesn't hide anything,
Speaker 7: It draws attention to it. And that's what happened here,
Speaker 7: and that's how the vehicle was found. And as we
Speaker 7: talked about earlier, Tom Swhisky, of all people newspaper carrier
Speaker 7: is seeing Bobby Dancy in a second individual that's not
Speaker 7: Stephen Avery or Bobby's brother Brendan, the two individuals convicted
Speaker 7: of this crime, but he sees two individuals moving this
Speaker 7: vehicle hours before Pam Sterman her daughter discover it. Very strange,
Speaker 7: very strange you.
Speaker 5: Had that Kathleen Zelln there decides early on to hire
Speaker 5: the most renowned experts in their fields and their forensic fields,
Speaker 5: in ballistics and blood spatter and in all kinds of
Speaker 5: disciplines including least procedure and investigation you talk about that.
Speaker 5: She brought in a person named John de Han, and
Speaker 5: he's a fire and burn expert. Tell us what John
Speaker 5: de Han concluded after looking at the evidence in the
Speaker 5: burn pit and then the burn barrels and all the
Speaker 5: evidence that the police purportedly had regarding that.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: One of the key components again after at the time
Speaker 7: of Stephen Avery's original trial, was the sensational notion that
Speaker 7: Stephen Avery, after supposedly murdering Teresa Hallbuck inside of his trailer,
Speaker 7: coing to prosecutor Ken Kratz and his story that he
Speaker 7: had told and shared it a March two thousand and
Speaker 7: six while the sensational press conference.
Speaker 6: The story was so long line.
Speaker 7: Since Stephen Avery had tied her up to his bed
Speaker 7: and raped her and cut her up and then ultimately
Speaker 7: supposedly had taken her body outside started a bonfire on
Speaker 7: Halloween night, and that supposedly the fire got eight ten
Speaker 7: feet high, and that this would have been Stephen Avery's
Speaker 7: method for getting rid of Teresa Hallbuck and her bones
Speaker 7: was the burner basically, And that's the story that Kratz
Speaker 7: used at Ken Kratz used at the trial obviously sunk
Speaker 7: in or carried weight with the jury because they returned
Speaker 7: to guilty verdict on the murder conviction. I should point
Speaker 7: out they did not, strangely enough, they found every not
Speaker 7: guilty on the mutilation, which is kind of a weird
Speaker 7: combination to find a multy and find him guilty of
Speaker 7: every other charge that he had.
Speaker 6: But that's an aside.
Speaker 7: But getting back to your original question with Dehan is
Speaker 7: that you know, John Dehan is one of the foremost
Speaker 7: leading fire and burn experts, and there's not a lot
Speaker 7: of you know, murders that involved the dismemberment and burning
Speaker 7: of bodies. But it does happen enough that we need
Speaker 7: experts out there that can study this, and Dehan has
Speaker 7: that expertise, and that's how Zellmer knows of him, so
Speaker 7: she had him do research. In long story short, is
Speaker 7: that that his determination just knowing the proximity of the properties,
Speaker 7: knowing the fact that this was you know, October thirty first,
Speaker 7: This would have been October thirty first, or with you know,
Speaker 7: first part of November, but you know, with the weather
Speaker 7: at the outdoor factor here the proximity to Avery's garage,
Speaker 7: and that's a rickety garage. I've been out there several times.
Speaker 7: It was literally looked like if you would sneeze, it
Speaker 7: would blow over. It was, you know, on the verge
Speaker 7: of falling apart, very very close in proximity to where
Speaker 7: Stephen Avery's burn pit was where he would just burn
Speaker 7: you know, junkin garbage, you know, the debris, just like
Speaker 7: everybody else in Wisconsin that lived in a rural setting
Speaker 7: like that. Nothing the farious there and it's proximity too.
Speaker 7: There was also a pro paint tank that was very
Speaker 7: close by. So long story short, is that is that
Speaker 7: John Dehan came away absolutely convinced that, however Teresa Hallbuck
Speaker 7: was dismembered and her body burned, that it would not
Speaker 7: have taken place in an outdoor setting, just in a
Speaker 7: wide open space such as even Avery's burn pit. And
Speaker 7: that fact alone contradicts with the fact that some of
Speaker 7: Teresa Halbeck's bones dan were discovered in the neighboring property
Speaker 7: in one of the burn barrels that Bobby Dassy had,
Speaker 7: which was again several feet away, a good distance between.
Speaker 6: The two yards.
Speaker 7: So if you were of the mindset that Steven Avery
Speaker 7: did infact commit the murder and that he did infect
Speaker 7: burn her, burn her body in his burn pit, again,
Speaker 7: it's one of those how do you reconcile with the
Speaker 7: rationale that somehow Steven Avery grabbed some of the bones
Speaker 7: but not all the bones, and somehow would have carried
Speaker 7: some over to his nephew Bobby Dassy's burn barrel and
Speaker 7: disposed of them in there. So again it's one of
Speaker 7: those contradictions of the evidence that that's really hard to explain.
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Speaker 5: unity dot com slash Now. You talk about gathering the evidence,
Speaker 5: You talk about the bones and the theory put forth
Speaker 5: that Steve Avery killed Teresa hallback with Brendan Dacy, his
Speaker 5: nephew again in court tells the story. It sounds almost
Speaker 5: unbelievable that Brendan Dacy goes near Stephen Avery's trailer here's screaming,
Speaker 5: is not so concerned, but bangs on the door, and
Speaker 5: then his half dressed uncle comes to the door and
Speaker 5: then remarkably invites him in to the torture and rape
Speaker 5: and eventual murder of Teresa Hallbach. The idea though, that
Speaker 5: you mentioned that the burn pit had some bones and
Speaker 5: almost no teeth of Teresa Hallback, but Bobby Dacy's burn
Speaker 5: barrel had fragments of Teresa Hallback's bones. Let's get to
Speaker 5: what Kathleen Zelner puts forth as the theory on how
Speaker 5: Bobby Dassy Scott Taddich is involved. But how Bobby Dasy
Speaker 5: is involved, how he was involved with the car when
Speaker 5: he left the property. Tell us what Kathleen Zellner puts
Speaker 5: forth as her theory on how this went down.
Speaker 7: Well, her theory, Dan is is that Peter Hawick did
Speaker 7: do the photo shoot, that she was on the Avery
Speaker 7: property for Steven Avery paid her for that, and that
Speaker 7: she left the property on her own, not having any
Speaker 7: idea that she was about to be harmed you or
Speaker 7: killed within a matter of several minutes.
Speaker 6: The belief is that Bobby Dassy was watching.
Speaker 7: Her from the window the entire time basically, and that
Speaker 7: Bobby Dassy in fact, in his own vehicle followed Teresa Hallbuck,
Speaker 7: you know, as she left the property, and that probably
Speaker 7: within a mile or two, could have been shorter, but
Speaker 7: let's just for sake of discussion, keep it to a
Speaker 7: mile or two. But somewhere on one of the nearby
Speaker 7: side roads, either Bobby Dascy pulls over or follows her,
Speaker 7: or you know, does something to get her attention.
Speaker 6: But anyway that she would pull.
Speaker 7: Over, he confronts her or has a conversation with her
Speaker 7: outside as she gets outside the vehicle, and that that
Speaker 7: he harms her by hitting her over the head with
Speaker 7: an object, not necessarily may have killed her at that
Speaker 7: point in time, but this may have happened somewhere in
Speaker 7: the general area that people in Wisconsin are familiar with,
Speaker 7: in this case Roil Road off one of the county
Speaker 7: highways that's known as Cust Road. And Cust Road is
Speaker 7: important too, Dan, because at the time of Tesa hallbucks disappearance,
Speaker 7: prior to Stephen Avery actually being arrested for this murder,
Speaker 7: several of the police dogs in this case did in
Speaker 7: fact have several hits, several sent hits for Teresa Hallbuck
Speaker 7: in this area of cust Road, which again is a
Speaker 7: couple of miles away from the Stephen Avery trailer and
Speaker 7: also the salvage character. So there's definite evidence from the
Speaker 7: dogs which would have no bias in the case. Is
Speaker 7: important to mention too, But the discovery of Teresa Hallbucks
Speaker 7: sent off off Cuss Road. So again, Zelder to this
Speaker 7: day will tell you she can't say one hundred percent
Speaker 7: certainly this is that's exactly the way it probably went down.
Speaker 7: But some of the evidence also points to that possibility,
Speaker 7: the blood spatter possibility that Hulbock was attacked around the
Speaker 7: same area of the back of her vehicle. And again
Speaker 7: that's something else that Stuart James, blood stained analysis expert,
Speaker 7: who's actually an interview for two separate books now, but
Speaker 7: I was familiar with him from a previous book I did.
Speaker 7: But Stuart James did a lot of blood to stay
Speaker 7: analysis in this case stand and he supported that possibility
Speaker 7: that Hubbock was in fact harmed somewhere around the back
Speaker 7: of her Round four and that's where she was attacked. Again,
Speaker 7: this would put us a mile or two away from
Speaker 7: the Stephen Avery property. Now what's interesting I want to
Speaker 7: point this out is that to remind people that when
Speaker 7: Bobby Dancy testified at Stephen Avery's trial, he came up
Speaker 7: with a peculiar story to give himself and his stepfather,
Speaker 7: his future stepfather, scotut Todtitch, both in Alibi at the
Speaker 7: same time. He contended that he had left a runyan acknowledge.
Speaker 7: He claimed that I did, in fact leave to go
Speaker 7: deer hunting shortly after trees A. Hall Buck had left
Speaker 7: his property, claimed to he was sound successful, didn't have
Speaker 7: any luck, but claimed that on his way to go
Speaker 7: to his deer the property he was going to do
Speaker 7: the deer hunting that afternoon around three o'clock or so,
Speaker 7: and against a fifty mile an hour speed limit out there.
Speaker 7: It's a State highway, two lane paved road. But he
Speaker 7: claimed that he was going one direction, he saw Scott
Speaker 7: Tottitch going the opposite direction, and that they waved at
Speaker 7: each other and saw each other. And again that's really
Speaker 7: important from a lot of standpoints for this case. As
Speaker 7: I mentioned, basically, would if you took that story at
Speaker 7: face value of if you're the police investigators in this case,
Speaker 7: then that would pretty much rule out the possibility that
Speaker 7: they had involvement. But at the same time too, it
Speaker 7: gives them both, you know, salid Alibis as far as
Speaker 7: around the time frame that Honor, both of them could
Speaker 7: have been involved either in the murder or dismemberment or
Speaker 7: disposal of her vehicle or her body at the same time.
Speaker 7: So again it was it was one of those very
Speaker 7: very strange moments in the trial that there's no I mean,
Speaker 7: you just either take them at their word that they're
Speaker 7: telling the truth, and if they're not telling the truth,
Speaker 7: then what other lies have these two individuals put forth
Speaker 7: about this case, Because that's a big one right there.
Speaker 5: It's interesting that a couple things are going on at
Speaker 5: the same time. People are fans of the Netflix series
Speaker 5: Making a Murderer, they'll realize that Avery's attorney's beauting and
Speaker 5: Straying put forth that police officers in Montauac County had
Speaker 5: planeted blood in the rout four. But Zelner is saying
Speaker 5: that there are two things going on at the same time.
Speaker 5: Of course, the county is afraid of the thirty six
Speaker 5: million dollar a lawsuit that's going to basically bankrupt them,
Speaker 5: and the legacy of that law enforcement would be tarnished
Speaker 5: forever and unique to the state to have that kind
Speaker 5: of expose in front of the public, especially with the
Speaker 5: Making a Murderer Netflix series and its popularity throughout the world.
Speaker 5: But there are a couple things going on at the
Speaker 5: same time in terms of that rav four being on
Speaker 5: Stephen Avery's property ultimately, but as you write that, there
Speaker 5: is evidence that this was some manipulation and chicanery going
Speaker 5: on at the county gravel pit, which is nearby Avery's property.
Speaker 7: Can you explain, right, that's one of those key components
Speaker 7: of the case that really was brushed aside and really
Speaker 7: underplayed at the time of Stephen Avery's trial. The fact
Speaker 7: is that that's that gravel pit, and that I mean
Speaker 7: there's two gravel pits, they kind of overlapping each other
Speaker 7: out there. One belonged to the family of Josh Verdant
Speaker 7: and the other one was actually Mantah County government property.
Speaker 7: But again, that's where a lot of the police officers
Speaker 7: were actually doing a lot of their investigation at the
Speaker 7: time of Teresa Holbeck's disappearance, even as Stephen Avery had emerged,
Speaker 7: or some of them had already zeroed in on Stephen
Speaker 7: Avery as the person that they were hoping to convict
Speaker 7: the rest for this crime. The fact is that they
Speaker 7: were spending considerable resources away the actual Stephen Avery's trailer
Speaker 7: and the areas where cat Crass is going to focus
Speaker 7: when it goes to trial. But they were spending their time,
Speaker 7: like I mentioned earlier, in this area of Cuss Road,
Speaker 7: and then also as you'd point out, Dan on the
Speaker 7: County gravel pit properties, and it was at those gravel
Speaker 7: pit properties where again more bones were found, including what
Speaker 7: was probably believed to be Teresa Hallwick's pelvic bones, were
Speaker 7: found out there. So that strongly raises the possibility that
Speaker 7: that location I'm talking about the County gravel pit properties, Dan,
Speaker 7: but that those gravel pits were the area where Teresa
Speaker 7: Hallbeck's body was incinerated, probably inside of a burn barrel
Speaker 7: pit again possibly that Bobby Dacy burn barrel, if in
Speaker 7: fact he had driven that big back with one of
Speaker 7: his family's golf carts.
Speaker 6: Rap four is probably one of the golf carts.
Speaker 7: Actually, the golf cart came up in discussion and the
Speaker 7: police dogs were also getting some hits off of that.
Speaker 6: So as my conversations I've had with Zeldor about this topic.
Speaker 5: Dan.
Speaker 7: She believes that that's a strong possibility. Is that is
Speaker 7: that one or more burd barrels could have been loaded
Speaker 7: up taken out to the quarry. And again that quarry
Speaker 7: in that time of the year, end of October, beginning
Speaker 7: of November, there's not going to be very many, if any,
Speaker 7: people that are out there, So that would have been
Speaker 7: a location of prime location. If you're familiar with that area,
Speaker 7: that would have been a safe location if you're the killer,
Speaker 7: to feel comfortable that nobody's going to see you or
Speaker 7: spot you or suspect you. You know, if you had
Speaker 7: a bird barrel out there and your purpose was to
Speaker 7: dispose concinerate a human body, something that you had already killed.
Speaker 7: So again that County Care property could have been what
Speaker 7: the area where in Factory's aholveiccs bones were ultimately burned
Speaker 7: and destroyed.
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Speaker 5: Now, you spoke to Kathleen Zone there in September twenty ninth,
Speaker 5: twenty twenty three in Naperville, and you also talk about
Speaker 5: that nobody wants in Wisconsin a making a murderer season three.
Speaker 5: I'll tell us about your talk with Kathleen zeon there
Speaker 5: post more.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean that's a key factor that's on her
Speaker 7: mind and that she's kind of felt strongly damn that
Speaker 7: one of the reasons why a lot of these post
Speaker 7: conviction decisions from Judge Angelo Suckwitz seem like they're constantly
Speaker 7: against her in spite of all the evidence that Zewners
Speaker 7: come up with looking pointing at an alternative suspect. Any
Speaker 7: suspect is what you need, what they're called, and in
Speaker 7: order to be successful in court prove that somebody else
Speaker 7: had a motive and strong possibility to infect be the killer.
Speaker 7: In fact, that she's so even though she's uncovered strong
Speaker 7: evidence point to Bobby Dassy as a possibility and also
Speaker 7: uncovering considerable evidence that was withheld from Stephen Avery and
Speaker 7: his original lawyers, Dean Strang and Jerry Beauting by the
Speaker 7: prosecution and the police. In spite of all that, she's
Speaker 7: been unsuccessful in getting a new trial or getting a
Speaker 7: new hearing just for Avery end So one of the
Speaker 7: reasons why she thinks that that's probably happened here, unlike
Speaker 7: her other successful cases over the years, is that the
Speaker 7: Wisconsin political arena, Democrats and Republicans it seems, but just
Speaker 7: elected officials, do not want to endure another ten episode
Speaker 7: season that'll bring more notoriety and bad press and publicity
Speaker 7: to the state of Wisconsin and its criminal justice system,
Speaker 7: as happened as a result of making Murder season one
Speaker 7: in December of twenty fifteen and then season two in
Speaker 7: October of twenty eighteen. And the best way from a
Speaker 7: strategy standpoint, Sewner's figured this out is that if the courts,
Speaker 7: if Wisconsin's judges and politicians are able to keep her
Speaker 7: and Steven Avery on successful. That limits the opportunity for
Speaker 7: a third season because there's really that much for the
Speaker 7: producers and the filmmakers to go with at this point
Speaker 7: in time. So much of the story has been told.
Speaker 7: And that's even true on my end, you know, as
Speaker 7: far as writing writing a book is concerned. So that's
Speaker 7: where Selener's kind of felt that the fact that Stephen
Speaker 7: Avery's case, although it's really helped her from a standpoint
Speaker 7: of shining a light on injustice and also fairness and
Speaker 7: professionalism Wisconsin's criminal justice system, the negative has been just
Speaker 7: the fact that Steven Avers case is basically so toxic
Speaker 7: as far as the Wisconsin judges aren't concerned, they're too
Speaker 7: scared or too timid to actually go against the green
Speaker 7: and make a decision that would really make other judges
Speaker 7: and other people before them look bad by giving Zelener
Speaker 7: and Steven Avery another day in courts. So many convicted
Speaker 7: criminals throughout North America, especially here in the United States,
Speaker 7: get time and time again for way way way way
Speaker 7: way less technicalities. And in this case, as Elenor believes
Speaker 7: she's proven, she can point to another logical suspect with
Speaker 7: strong evidence, circumstantial evidence that he feels wasn't available back
Speaker 7: in two thousand and seven when Steven Avery had his
Speaker 7: original trial, and therefore he deserves a new trial where
Speaker 7: she can put on that evidence and let a jury
Speaker 7: decide whether or not Steven Avery should be found guilty
Speaker 7: or of Teresa Hollbrick's murder under these better circumstances for her.
Speaker 5: In him, you talk about a judge said to which,
Speaker 5: and basically the news that she asked to be off
Speaker 5: the case finally, and there was a new judge assigned,
Speaker 5: So there is some optimism that at least she's not
Speaker 5: there anymore. You said she was a terrible jurist. So
Speaker 5: there's a new judge, and so there's some optimism. And
Speaker 5: in fact, Kathleen zelln there is not one to give
Speaker 5: up and says she won't give up till he is
Speaker 5: freed from prison. But she says that she's very confident
Speaker 5: that will be somebody will look at this and grant
Speaker 5: another trial, because she says that Judge Sikowitch Subkwitz did
Speaker 5: a number of egregious errors, including believing that incorrectly, that
Speaker 5: there was not bones in Bobby Dacy's burn barrel, and
Speaker 5: exclusively all the bones were in the burn.
Speaker 7: Pit burnpit, and and she got it wrong, I think
Speaker 7: said even in a burn barrel of Steven Avers, which
Speaker 7: Stephen Avery did have a burn barrel that was near
Speaker 7: his property, and there were no non of Tresa Halbeck's
Speaker 7: bones were discovered in that. So I would just that's
Speaker 7: one of those heads to me that if I'm a
Speaker 7: judge on a case that I already know ahead of
Speaker 7: time has gotten worldwide attention, that would make me even
Speaker 7: more I was gonna say paranoid, but just cautious is
Speaker 7: probably the better word. Dan, that I'm going to get
Speaker 7: it right as far as just with the basic important
Speaker 7: evidentary facts of the case are. And here we are
Speaker 7: in August of twenty twenty three, eighteen years after the
Speaker 7: homicide originally happened, but about ten years or so that
Speaker 7: she's been on the case, and she's still getting key
Speaker 7: evidentrary facts wrong. That and by doing it that way,
Speaker 7: it's really further pointing the evidence against Stephen Avery rather
Speaker 7: than at someone else or an alternative suspect, which is
Speaker 7: the way that that evidence unbiasedly or objectively looked it's
Speaker 7: one of those things that makes me wonder if she
Speaker 7: was just sloppy the whole time or just kind of
Speaker 7: looked at this case as I just got stuck with
Speaker 7: this and I have to deal with it, and I
Speaker 7: don't want to upset anybody.
Speaker 6: So you know, I'm going to status quo this case
Speaker 6: as best I can.
Speaker 7: And when I read her opinions in this past August
Speaker 7: where she rejected basically all the Tom Sewinsky information and evidence,
Speaker 7: where she basically is saying that, yeah, okay, I'll take it,
Speaker 7: you know as a matter of fact that that Tom
Speaker 7: Sewinsky did see Bobby Dascy and a second person pushing
Speaker 7: the vehicle. But from Judge Suckwitz's writing in her opinion,
Speaker 7: she came back and said, well, okay, well that doesn't
Speaker 7: prove that he actually, you know, had the keys to
Speaker 7: her vehicle. That doesn't actually prove that he was driving
Speaker 7: her vehicle. But Dan, we're talking about it's the murder
Speaker 7: of victim's vehicle. So if Bobby Nascy, what in the
Speaker 7: world would be why would he even be handling, pushing
Speaker 7: around the vehicle of a missing woman that we're going
Speaker 7: to later discover had been murdered in dismember it, so
Speaker 7: you know why in the world would be he'd be
Speaker 7: handling it. It was just really strange and goofy and
Speaker 7: I I go off on too many tangents, but I
Speaker 7: will point out that Judge Suckwitz in August also pointed
Speaker 7: to Brendan Dacy, Bobby, Bobby Dacy's brother, the one that's
Speaker 7: condemned that was also convicted, probably even more wrongfully. So
Speaker 7: people you know wrongful conviction movement believe in the case.
Speaker 7: But Judge Suckwitz cited Brendan Dacy's supposed confession as further
Speaker 7: evidence to back up her reason for rejecting the Tom
Speaker 7: Sewinsky affidavit, and also the evidence pointing to Bobby Dassy
Speaker 7: as the killer.
Speaker 1: So it was just for.
Speaker 7: Zeleaner and certainly for her supporters and fans, and definitely
Speaker 7: I'm sure for Steven Avery. It was very deflating to
Speaker 7: get that August ruling after several years of really working
Speaker 7: hard to dig into this Tom Sewinsky information now pointing
Speaker 7: to Bobby Dascy and then the lo and behold on nowhere.
Speaker 7: It even surprised me as I was working on the
Speaker 7: book Dan we get this notice that Angela Suckwitz, Judge Suckwitz,
Speaker 7: has given up the case and that she's no longer
Speaker 7: going to handle Stephen Avery from here on out. So
Speaker 7: we didn't know for about a week or two it
Speaker 7: was going to happen where what judge was going to
Speaker 7: handle the case in the lo and behold, Dan, the
Speaker 7: case got assigned to a brand new judge. And I
Speaker 7: say brand new, I mean it that way. He had
Speaker 7: just gotten elected a judge back in April of last year.
Speaker 7: So brand new judge was a brand new position that
Speaker 7: the courts had created in Wisconsin because of Mantowah County's
Speaker 7: a growth and case slow numbers for the other judges.
Speaker 7: So this brand new judge, Anthony Lambert, I believe is
Speaker 7: how you say his name. But he had previously worked
Speaker 7: as a police officer for about six years. Then he
Speaker 7: became a lawyer and worked for several years as a
Speaker 7: public defender. So he has represented indigent people and he
Speaker 7: has represented people trying to fight the system or prove
Speaker 7: their innocence. And then in most recent years he was
Speaker 7: working as a prosecutor as an assistant district attorney for
Speaker 7: Mattwah County. So Kathleen Xellner is very optimistic that at
Speaker 7: least she feels that she's got a judge now in
Speaker 7: the case that really is not politically connected dan or
Speaker 7: beholden to people that have a deep interest in mistake
Speaker 7: in the outcome of Stephen Avery's conviction, in Brendan Dacy's conviction.
Speaker 7: So time will tell. We have this conversation again a
Speaker 7: year or two from now, being in a better position,
Speaker 7: I tell you you know how things turned out. But
Speaker 7: for now, Kathleen Zellner feels optimistic that that hopefully this
Speaker 7: judge will give her in Steven Avery a fair shake
Speaker 7: when it comes to examining and weighing the new evidence
Speaker 7: and information that she and her team of investigators and
Speaker 7: team of world renowned experts have uncovered that looks at
Speaker 7: the strong possibility that the version of events that were
Speaker 7: presented in two thousand and seven at Stephen Avery's trial
Speaker 7: were not the real facts as far as how Teresa
Speaker 7: Halbuck met her death, who killed her, and wherefact she
Speaker 7: was dismembered, And we'll see where things go.
Speaker 5: Very interesting when you posited that if you imagine the
Speaker 5: thirty six million dollar lawsuit and its ramifications and damage
Speaker 5: to the legacy of law enforcement in Wisconsin. They were
Speaker 5: on the verge of that when they made the arrest
Speaker 5: of Stephen Avery and when they had this treasure trove
Speaker 5: of convenient evidence, it seemed. But you say, can you
Speaker 5: imagine the fallout, the ramifications, the incredible lawsuit number if
Speaker 5: he was wrongfully convicted again you imagine. So there was
Speaker 5: a lot of forces, it seems to be in Wisconsin,
Speaker 5: from bringing in investigators that were in retirement. It just
Speaker 5: seems there's a lot of people with a vested interest
Speaker 5: in not having Steven Avery get out of jail anytime soon.
Speaker 7: Right, And that's kind of the way that, like I said,
Speaker 7: Zelener felt that it was going as the more she
Speaker 7: had worked hard on covering evidence or information that pointed
Speaker 7: to Stephen Avery's innocence and or also pointed alternative suspects,
Speaker 7: and also uncovered evidence for what we call here in
Speaker 7: America as Brady violations, which is where the prosecution is
Speaker 7: accused or determined to have withheld information that would have
Speaker 7: been favorable for the defense, things such as other evidence
Speaker 7: or other witnesses. And we know factually that that happened
Speaker 7: on several occasions here where Steven Avery's lawyers were not
Speaker 7: presented with information or evidence including this. Tom Swinsky won't
Speaker 7: call where he hadn't been made a phone call to
Speaker 7: the Mantwak Sheriff's office within days of Tresa Hallbuck disappearing,
Speaker 7: calling them to let them know that he had discovered
Speaker 7: two individuals moving pushing the vehicle.
Speaker 6: And that guy was blown off.
Speaker 7: He was not taken seriously, nor did they by follow
Speaker 7: up on that and by the Mantwalk Shriff's office, and
Speaker 7: then there's no report on that. So in Steven Avery's
Speaker 7: defense and or his lawyer's defense, they didn't even know
Speaker 7: about that information. And that's you know, I hate to
Speaker 7: use the word bombshell because it's a cliche, but that
Speaker 7: certainly would have been very helpful than an advantageous from
Speaker 7: a defense strategy. If Dean Straying and Jerry Bauting, the
Speaker 7: original lawyers would have known that somebody else was in
Speaker 7: fact pushing Teresa Hollbuck's vehicle within five or six hours
Speaker 7: of actually being discovered on the Avery Salvage property on November.
Speaker 7: You know, in November of two thousand and five, you.
Speaker 5: Also talk about a possible Brady violation. Well, she claims
Speaker 5: it's Brady violation. The CD the computer files that were
Speaker 5: found on the Dassi computer where Barb had taken to
Speaker 5: a technician, and there were segments or portions of it erased.
Speaker 5: But right from the beginning the police trying to portray
Speaker 5: the computer as Brendan's when in fact it was Bobby's,
Speaker 5: and then Kathleen Zellner did the forensic evidence to say
Speaker 5: that he was lying at trial saying he was sleeping
Speaker 5: when he was accessing that computer for very violent pornography
Speaker 5: topics and images before Teresa Halbach came to the property
Speaker 5: all during that morning. So her assessment is that that
Speaker 5: CD that would have been very damaging, those files would
Speaker 5: have been very damaging to the narrative of Ken Kratz,
Speaker 5: and as a result, withheld that information. One of the
Speaker 5: files or some of the folders that were very very
Speaker 5: criminating were with help from booting and strength at Steven
Speaker 5: abristrel right.
Speaker 7: And the other key point about that too, Dan is
Speaker 7: that that even if if Dean's trying and Jerry Bunting
Speaker 7: Steven averys Floyds would have had access and knowledge of that,
Speaker 7: they certainly would have been able to question and hammer
Speaker 7: away at Bobby Dacy's testimony where he claimed that he
Speaker 7: had been sleeping basically all day and then it basically
Speaker 7: woke up, took a shower, and decided to go hunting.
Speaker 7: They would have been able to prove that he'd been
Speaker 7: on the computer for several hours that day and certainly
Speaker 7: smashed holes into his testimony, and then on top of that,
Speaker 7: obviously get into the whole disturbing images in the keyword
Speaker 7: searches that he had been undertaking the fact his mom
Speaker 7: then would hire computer technicians to remove and erase certain
Speaker 7: timeframes of his activities on the computer, so the police
Speaker 7: or anybody would never been able to access that he
Speaker 7: had folders created. For there was a truce of Hallbuck
Speaker 7: folder that was created. I think I mentioned the other
Speaker 7: one was called DNA DAN DNA, and then I think
Speaker 7: a third one was Stephen Avery, but certainly Hallbuck and
Speaker 7: DNA and it's you know again, it's like now, Gary Hunt,
Speaker 7: Kathleen Zelder's world renowned computer expert, pointed out in his
Speaker 7: affide but that he was he himself was not able
Speaker 7: to determine the time frame you know, when thows the
Speaker 7: folders actually were created. But again, the fact that there
Speaker 7: was so much erasing done to the computer around the
Speaker 7: time frame that Teresa Halbeck had been visiting, you know,
Speaker 7: and already going to the every salvage yard property over
Speaker 7: several occasions to the several days after her disappearing, and
Speaker 7: the police investigation into her disappearance in murder certainly raised
Speaker 7: strong possibilities that Bobby Dassi may have had something to
Speaker 7: do with it. Otherwise, why in the world would these
Speaker 7: files be turning up missing and why would his family
Speaker 7: go to these lengths that they did to erase and
Speaker 7: destroy this information that was in fact on the computer.
Speaker 7: And as you point out, I'm glad you did, the
Speaker 7: police wrongfully tried to portray this family computer as being
Speaker 7: his other brother, Brenda Dassie's computer, when in fact Bobby
Speaker 7: was the one that used it and other family members.
Speaker 7: I've given Affi David's backing up Zelner, you know, and
Speaker 7: supporting her and pointing that out that Bobby Dacy was
Speaker 7: the one that was pretty much home all the time
Speaker 7: using the computer, and while there were back to other
Speaker 7: siblings living at the house, Bobby was the one that
Speaker 7: pretty much used that computer and he's the only one
Speaker 7: that really everything could point back.
Speaker 5: To at the end of your book, you in the epilogue,
Speaker 5: you get to talk to Steven Avery, or through Kathleen Zelner,
Speaker 5: she tells Steven Avery of your book and ask him
Speaker 5: a few questions before I let you go. There is
Speaker 5: a little bit of information that Steven Avery discusses in
Speaker 5: that phone call involving his brothers, and again right to
Speaker 5: the very end of this book exposing new information and
Speaker 5: new leads in this investigation.
Speaker 7: The one thing about Steven Avery is that he doesn't
Speaker 7: pointing out and I know people that are really strongly
Speaker 7: supportive of Brendan Dassy, you know, his innocence. Stephen, believing
Speaker 7: in his own innocence, basically says that he doesn't know
Speaker 7: whether in fact Brendan's innocent or whether in fact, maybe
Speaker 7: that Brendan could have possibly helped Bobby Dassy. But Stephen
Speaker 7: Avery does reveal that he believes, you know, with one
Speaker 7: hundred percent certainty, that Bobby Dassy is the one that
Speaker 7: he's always believed in and strongly believes was responsible for
Speaker 7: Teresa Holbeck's demise. And don't even point out to me too,
Speaker 7: that that he knew that Bobby had a history of
Speaker 7: lying and you know, and even talked about some situations where,
Speaker 7: you know, where Bobby was taking parts from a lot
Speaker 7: of the uh, you know, the jump vehicles, the scrap
Speaker 7: from the scrap yard at the Avery's salvage yard, the
Speaker 7: massive salvage yard and selling those off to people he
Speaker 7: knew through school but denied that he did it, and
Speaker 7: and that kind of stuff. So so Stephen already believes
Speaker 7: that Bobby Dassy has a strong history of lying and
Speaker 7: would do anything to get himself out of a jam
Speaker 7: and get himself out of trouble, especially you know, in
Speaker 7: a murder case. So yeah, it was revealing that the
Speaker 7: fact that you'd have family feel that strongly against other
Speaker 7: family members. But Stephen Avery has had i mean eighteen
Speaker 7: years now, I mean since two thousand and five, eighteen
Speaker 7: years that he's been accused of our incarcerated for Trusa
Speaker 7: Hobblocks murder. So he's had a lot of time. Eighteen
Speaker 7: years too, Dan is how much time he spent for
Speaker 7: the first case. He was wrongfully convicted for the rape
Speaker 7: and that happened in eighty five and he was let
Speaker 7: out in two thousand and three.
Speaker 6: That's interesting, So he's had eighteen years times too.
Speaker 7: Now to sit back and stew and send plenty of
Speaker 7: time to think about it, and he feels strongly that Bobby,
Speaker 7: his nephew, Bobby Death CEO, is the person that appears
Speaker 7: to be most likely responsible for Trusa Holbricks' disappearance and killing.
Speaker 5: Yes, it's a fascinating and incredible story and it's why
Speaker 5: it's captivated audiences throughout the world and will continue, I'm
Speaker 5: sure with Kathleen Zellner at the Helm and with your
Speaker 5: fine book Wrecking Crew. I want to thank you very much,
Speaker 5: John for com going on and talking about your updated
Speaker 5: Wrecking Crew, Demolishing the Case against Stephen Avery, the updated
Speaker 5: fifth anniversary edition, including an exclusive interview with Steve Avery.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for this interview, John Ferrick. And
Speaker 5: for those people that might want to take further look
Speaker 5: at your work, this book and your other work, where
Speaker 5: might they go?
Speaker 7: I would let people know that please visit my book publisher,
Speaker 7: Colorado based Wild Blue Press, so wild Blue Press dot com.
Speaker 7: The very active also on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter especially
Speaker 7: and Amazon is also one of the easiest places to
Speaker 7: find any and all of my books, including Wrecking Crew,
Speaker 7: the audible book that is narrated by Kevin Pearce is
Speaker 7: also out as well, so I would encourage people on
Speaker 7: the audio side to give that a listen. And lastly,
Speaker 7: John Ferrick dot com is also another place to take
Speaker 7: a look at Wrecking Crew and or all of my
Speaker 7: other two crime books over the years.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much John Ferrick for coming on and
Speaker 5: talking about rect Crew, demolishing the case against Stephen Avery.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for this interview, and you have
Speaker 5: a great evening and good night.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much. Dan, always the pleasure for shi
Speaker 7: it can.
Speaker 5: I thank you?
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