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Speaker 1: From wherever you are around the world, around the world.

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Welcome to the Circle of Insight, a show that explores

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the many facets of human behavior and the wonders of

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the human mind. And now here's your host, doctor Carlos.

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Speaker 2: Welcome everyone. Well, I'm really excited because we're going to

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talk about a topic that I don't usually cover on this podcast,

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and it's ethical espionage. Our guest has readen in two

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books on ethics of spying. They're fascinating read a reader

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for the intelligence professional. He's been in the professional. He's

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been in the intelligence community for over twenty five years.

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His name is doctor Jan Goldman. He's Professor of Intelligence

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and Security Studies at the Citadel. His research areas focus

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on ethics and intelligence operations. Is there such a thing

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as ethical spine? Well, we're gonna find out. So let's

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welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Goldman. Welcome, sir. Yeah, thank you, Carlos. Glad to

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be here. Oh, we're glad to have you.

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Speaker 2: This is really an interesting topic. Of course, this is

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a podcast designed around this area and topic. Can you

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do The first thing of verse is can you define

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what is ethical espionage?

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Speaker 3: Sure? Sure, excuse me, so ethical espionage. Quite frankly, let's

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be honest. There are some people, a lot of people

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will say that it's an oxymoron and that you know,

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you can't have ethical espionage, it just doesn't work. But

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the reality is, if you take this idea that ethics

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has no place in the intelligence collection the use of intelligence,

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that you're really saying. And here's where I like to

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talk about the analogy. Here. The analogy is if you

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believe war is hell, and if war is hell, then

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you need people who are willing to kill, and there's

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nothing wrong with that. But we also know that in

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war there are rules of engagement and we learned this

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from World War Two when because of the war in

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World War two and the Nazis, we created crimes against humanity.

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And these are rules of engagement, so that for example,

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you know, you're not to torture anybody somebody running away,

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you know, not really shoot him in the back. I mean,

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these are things that come out of just war theory,

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and just war theory are what we would consider rules

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of engagement for when won a country goes to war,

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and when you go to war, how do you conduct

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yourself during the war. In the naval Academy, West Point

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Air Force Academy. They teach just war theory. And just

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war theory is, you know, you have rules of engagement

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that you have to follow, and if you don't, you

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use For example, during the Vietnam War Mayli and during

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mayl I, we brought people up on charges because it

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was a massacre. All right, you don't you don't kill

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women and children and babies, all right. So that's just

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war theory, and we have codified that through international agreements.

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Now we look at spying. How far do you go

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that you are going to encroach on someone civil liberties?

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How far do you go in collecting intelligence? So that

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if there is no limits on how one obtains information,

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then there's nothing wrong with torture. And I'm not I

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don't want to get wrapped around the axle in focusing

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specifically on torture, because it's it's immoral and it's from

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a practical standpoint, it's not effective. The intelligence community does

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not teach torture. So these are all things that the

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intelligence community we have established. So when I decided in

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early two thousand and this was after nine to eleven,

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with the creation of black sites and so forth, you know,

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and people were saying not only was it immoral, but

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they were all so illegal. I decided to look at it,

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and I want to make it absolutely clear. I mean,

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we know what ethics is, we know what morals are,

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and we're applying that to the people who work in intelligence.

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And if this is and this also goes to the

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root of ethical espionage, because you have to ask yourself.

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The people who work in intelligence, like the people who

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work in the Armed services, they're professionals, so there is

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standards of conduct. So why would we not have standards

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of conduct for intelligence professionals? And there you know, if

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you look at the American Bar Association, I mean, you

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want to go defend someone, you have to take a test,

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you have to be certified, you have to agree to

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the American Bar Association Code of ethics. If you want

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to be a doctor, the same thing. This is typical

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of a professional. So even for people who make furniture

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or people who you know, any anyone who considers themselves

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a professional has a code of ethics. And so the

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question I would ask is, so what are our code

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of ethics or are we to rely specifically on the

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individual's personal conduct? Because now what you're doing is and

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I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that we should.

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I'm not saying that we hire bad people. What I'm

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saying is what is it that we expect out of

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the individuals we do hire? And and if you are

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going to say torture someone, then that has to be

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with the you know, I mean, Derkowitz says that it

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should be like a search, a search warmed where you

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should get a judge, and the judge says, in this situation,

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you know, torture is warranted. You know. I try to

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stay away from making a decision on whether something is

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moral or immoral. My goal as an academic is to

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raise these questions and discuss them. And I have always

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been fascinated by this, And like someone who teaches just

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war theory, I'm teaching ethical espionage. It doesn't make someone

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who wants rules of engagement a pacifist anymore than someone

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who wants ethical espionage. To say we should be against

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the intelligence community, Well, that leaves.

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Speaker 2: Me to several questions if you make me bring up

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in my mind at least, And what I want to

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try to do is try to tap type of things

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out to remind myself. One of them is honeytraps. So

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we're talking about techniques here, So we got honey trap,

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you have some of the situations that we've seen lately

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with some of the Chinese spies and some of our

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work there on that side, or false propaganda, are any

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of the techniques because it sounds like almost what you

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were saying also, is that ethics is kind of on

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a spectrum. There's a spectrum of ethical behavior. Is that

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really black and white? So do the techniques also fall

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under some kind of ethical umbrella?

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Speaker 3: You think? I do? I do? And and I would say, like,

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for example, you know, people say that torture is immoral,

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torture is illegal, torture doesn't work. But and in most

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cases I would say ninety nine point nine percent they're correct.

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It reminds me of it in Germany. And Germany there

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was a local sheriff who they captured this individual who

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held this fellow went into a house a wealthy individual

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kidnapped their six year old son and then buried the

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sun in a grave with an oxygen tank and said

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and said to the family, if you want to ever

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see your son again, he's got two hours to live.

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And I need you know, I need one hundred thousand dollars. Well,

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they dropped the money off, and when the guy went

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to get one hundred thousand dollars out of the trash can,

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the local German authorities arrested him. And when he was

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brought back to the station, they said to him, where's

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the boy. We know that he's got two hours to live.

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Where's the boy? And and the fellow said, I don't

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know what you're talking about. It. I just happened to

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be in the park. I saw this bag, I grabbed

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it and there was you know, I don't know what

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you what you're what you want. Eventually the sheriff told

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everyone to leave the room, went in and said to him,

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I'm going to torture you until you give me the answer,

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and I will not stop until you do. And the

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and the guy immediately and he was serious about it too.

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He already he he already said I don't have time.

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And if that's true, two hours we're gonna you're gonna

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be tortured. It'll be the worst time of your life. Well,

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the guy gave it, gave the information up. They went

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and they found the kid. He was buried, but the

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oxygen tube had run and the oxygen had run out

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and he's suffocated. But the sheriff was was brought up

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on charges for threatening and using torture, and of course

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the fellow who committed the crime was was sent to

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prison for murder. But the question you have to ask

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is even using not even torturing, but even threatening to

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use torture, would that have been appropriate in this kind

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of incidents. And this is the fact that this happened

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in a small town in Germany, and the Germans brought

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the sheriff up on chargers and said, you're gonna go

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to jail for threatening to torture. From what we have

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learned from World War two, and the Germans are very

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strict since World War Two, you can understand, but they

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have gone from a Kantian perspective, and kant the theory

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of Kant is that you do not use people to

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obtain an objective. And if you are using torture, uh,

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this is of course inappropriate. He also says you can

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you can't an eye for an eye, but that's that's

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going off. But the fact is, these are questions that

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we need to discuss. And what we're finding out is

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a lot of people, uh, something like torture. For nine

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to eleven, those were used as fishing expeditions. I'm going

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to torture you until you give me information, but I

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don't know what information I'm looking for. Well, that's that's immoral,

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that's inappropriate, And that's what I would say ninety nine

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point nine percent is the fact, when you get down

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to it, you're not really torturing someone. You're actually looking

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for revenge. And that's not that's just that's just not

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that's just not propriate. Trap. Yeah, but then you get

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into honey traps. If honey traps are legal, and there's

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nothing Look, if someone has a you know, you can

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use sex and let's understand what what honeytrap is. A

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honey trap is an intelligence collection operation where you are

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trapped and trapping someone by using sex and by using sex, uh,

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it's probably gonna be recorded, pictures may be taken, uh,

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and then you're hoping to use that. Or you can

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use sex where someone snuggles up to another individual and

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you know, you try to befriend them.

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Speaker 4: And so you know the old uh, the old honey

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trap of of you know, meeting in a supermarket and

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then you know, the guy meets a woman and a

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woman and actually for one of the intel services.

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Speaker 3: But if you're looking at a honey trap for blackmail purposes,

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and say, for example, you know there was a theoretically

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there was a black mail operation where one individual was

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a honey trap, a mail with another male, except he

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came from a country where homosexual relations were illegal and

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can almost be put to death or put to death.

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And so this politician in New York City who was

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at the United Nations, who was having a homosexual affair

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with another fellow who was working for an intel service,

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whose pictures that were being taken, and then shown the

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pictures and said, okay, if you don't play ball with us, uh,

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these photos one are gonna go to your family and

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your wife is not going to be too pleased. And

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two it's gonna go to your government and they're gonna

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call you back and you'll probably be shot. All right.

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So uh, now you ask yourself, okay, what's wrong with that? Well,

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I mean we're now looking at blackmail as uh, and

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and and you got to ask yourself what are the

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ethics of blackmail? And when we get into blackmail, you

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know the reality is from a practical standpoint, you may

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be able to use it once, but you're not gonna

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be able to use it more than that. Uh, you know,

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I mean just like any other blackmail. And the other

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thing you have to ask yourself as far as the

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honeytrap is concerned, is if somebody comes to you and says, Carlos,

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give me some secrets. I mean, I'll give you some secrets.

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I'm sorry, I'll give you some secrets, but in return

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I will give you you'll give me drugs. Would you

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do that if someone if if you if you're dealing

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with an informant who is placed in a high value

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location and has access to an enemy country's secrets, but

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it is only willing to give you those secrets if

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you gave him drugs, would you do that?

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Speaker 2: Hey, you'd have to kind of go off with utilitarian theory.

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There anoulysis right find of give you and all this

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other stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you give me, So chances are good you

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would say, you know, jan I want to give this guy.

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If I give this guy a couple of ounces of

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coke that I can get in exchange for you know,

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one hundred top secret documents, I mean, what he does

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with his nose. I don't care, right, you want to

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you want to you you want to sniff cocaine? Hey,

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knock yourself out. I want the one hundred documents that

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you can get. And I think most people would say,

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you know, I don't really care that this guy means

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nothing to me, right, and I have access to to

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the drugs. What happens if this fella says to you, Carlos,

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I have a I have a thousand documents top secret. Uh,

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but I I like I like children. I'm a pedophile. Uh.

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And if would you help him out with his uh,

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with his addiction there, and then you got to say yourself, okay,

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oh a thousand documents, I don't know, that's pretty good.

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But then you can say, wait a minute, I'm drawing

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the line, all right. If you you know, I'm not

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gonna support pedophilia, so you have to So when we

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say that I don't care about ethics, then I would

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say to you you need to reevaluate. You know, if

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you're working in the military and you're special forces, if

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you come off the bus and they say, hey, why

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do you want to become special operations and you say,

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because I like killing people. They're going to ask you

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to go back on the bus, because that's not the

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kind of people we want. So that's what I would

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say as far as what ethics is and kind of

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you know, instead of getting into all the theories, are

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just cutting to the chase. This is This kind of

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brings it home. Where do we draw the line when

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we conduct intelligence collection operations?

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Speaker 2: You give us a lot of food for thought. And

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it's interesting you mentioned that you mentioned that example of

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special forces. I know when I wrote a book a

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few years ago on ISIS recruitment, ices didn't want the psychopaths.

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They didn't want the trouble makers a lot because they

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cause a lot of problems that people couldn't control them.

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Speaker 3: The leaders didn't want to deal with them.

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Speaker 2: Even al Qaeda broke off with isus's original leaders our

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caring because he wasn't controllable. I was all over the place,

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and it's like, you know, forget it. But I wanted

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to ask you this question, U, doctor Goldman. My last

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question here is society seems sometimes not Sometimes it changes,

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and it changes the parameters or the boundaries of ethics.

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Speaker 3: In a sense. We look at Batman.

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Speaker 2: Originally, everybody follows Superman, he was good, he was clean.

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You knew exactly what right or wrong was. Batman seems

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to cross those lines now and the newer versions of

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the movies. You and I know doctor Golden's plub were

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thinking Batman was talking about. But we see Batman in

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his ethics that he's crossing the lines. You know, he

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goes into those torture modes. He goes into these modes

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where he becomes almost a villain in some cases. Have

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you seen society gradually changing the boundaries of ethics now?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know see and now I grew up with

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Batman and Superman, and I'll even say that if you

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want to look at sports. You know, I grew up

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in New York City. Mickey mannl was my hero. I

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had no idea he was an alcoholic. But then you know,

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today you learn about all these sports heroes that these

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kids have, and then you find out that we're coming

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out with Lebron James, which I have great respect for

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his supportive Black lives matter. The politics of society has

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now infiltrated into sports, and I think that's a good

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thing because politics has always been a part of sports.

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And you can go back to the Olympics in nineteen

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sixty eight when they held the I can't remember the

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Carlos held up the blackfist and then was banned from

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the Olympics for winning the gold medal. I don't know

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if you remember that or even you want to talk

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about the Israeli team being was it nineteen seventy two

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when the Palestinians entered and murdered the Israeli athletes. So

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politics and you know, society, we can't isolate ourselves. I

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would say, though, in looking at intelligence, the due intelligence

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go to war at all courts is really we're backing off.

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And while Batman may find torture good because the Hollywood,

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you know, believes this is what the audience wants, the

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reality is, you know, in nineteen forty In one of

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my books, Ethics of Spying, Volume two, I have the

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US Naval document when in nineteen forty two, I'm sorry

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nineteen forty because it was just before Pearl Harbor, the

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US Navy decided they were going to establish an intelligence

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unit to go out and collect and do intelligence operation.

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And it was from February nineteen forty yeah, and I'm

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sorry February nineteen forty one, because Pearl Hobber occurred on

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December seventh, nineteen forty one. And what they were looking

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for the Navy was individuals who were, let's see, maladjusted.

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I'm using their words maladjusted, psychopaths, immigrants, and revolutionaries. And

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these are the people that they believe have no conscience.

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Speaker 5: That and I say this because they're including immigrants in this,

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but that they have no conscience, and that whatever the

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Navy wants them to do, they will do it.

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Speaker 3: And they said, these are the kind of people we

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want in the US Navy Intelligence unit. And this was

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in nineteen forty two, before Pearl Harbor. Well we go

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fast forward, and quite frankly, if you look at the

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intelligence community, we don't need psychopaths. If anything, we want

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immigrants because they speak the language, they know the culture.

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But I mean, as far as you know malcontents, which

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I believe is they also I label. I mean, you know,

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you have to have a security clearance, you have to

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have trust, you know, these are the people that we

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will rely on. And I would say that you look

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at special operations, you know, military operations, there's a lot

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of overlay with intelligence. But then the thing about intelligence

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is we're involved in peace time, not just wartime, when

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it comes to actively operating in this kind of environment,

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and we deal with diplomat and citizens, and you know,

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we run the gamut because that's where the information is.

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That's who you have to deal with. But you know,

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taking on the ethics or doing as the Romans would

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do right, right, It's just it can be up to

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a point to make you part of that society. But

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one of the things that.

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Speaker 6: Makes the US so great is that I still believe

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that we are that shiny beacon on the hill, and

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that given the values and.

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Speaker 3: The morals.

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Speaker 7: Of the people that make up the armed services, the

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intelligence community, that we will continue to do what we

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believe is the right thing to do without it becoming immoral.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think it's a great spot to end folks again.

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And you can get doctor Goldman's books Ethics of Spying

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Volume one and two from Amazon. Highly recommend it if

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you're inter intelligence, if you're into the world of spying.

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This is another arena that you don't always talk about.

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I know, we like all those fun stories and those

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are in there too, but looking at the ethical sides

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are important.

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Speaker 3: Thank you doctor Goldman for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Thank you everyone for joining us as well.

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