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Speaker 1: So, uh, how long ago? Was this a couple of months?

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I can't remember. We were hanging out here.

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Speaker 2: At the old tim Cashiers right before the show, and

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I'd made a comment about fertility rates being low but

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among conservatives still around like one point eight, to which

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I think it was Phil Lebanti responded that Catholics have

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a higher than replacement rate fertility at like two point four,

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and then I was like, is that true? And Mary

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Morgan was also on the show, and then I think

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she mentioned something about divorce rates are also really low,

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and then I jokingly said Catholics are the superior Christians,

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and to which everyone chuckled, and I antagonistically said should

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I tweet that? Because I just knew it cause a storm,

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you know, ish storm, and then Mary and Phil both

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said yes, and I was like, okay, so I did.

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Speaker 1: And here we are.

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Speaker 2: Now do I have the uh, we don't have the

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oh I can pull well whatever, we don't have the

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people to do. But now we actually we're actually gonna

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have that debate because admittedly I am a lapsed ethleic.

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I was ten years old and my family left the church,

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so what do I know? So I brought in a

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handful of gentlemen to have this conversation and have this

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debate over the religion the denomination.

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Speaker 1: Sir, would you like to introduce yourself first?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jay Dyer, I host the Alex Jones Show, have

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done that for the last five years right for the

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Sam Hide Show doing comedy. I've debated all the top

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atheist Muslims that are out there and looking forward to.

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Speaker 1: This one right on.

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Speaker 4: I'm Aiden Mattis. I'm the host of the lore Lodge,

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The Weird Bible and History Unhinged on YouTube, and I

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have not debated all that many people, so this is

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going to be an interesting day for me.

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Speaker 5: I'm Timothy Gordon. I'm the representative of the superior religion

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here today. You know me from YouTube. Rules for Introgrades

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is the name of the show. I'm the author of

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five books and I'm excited to defend.

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Speaker 4: Your position that you meant totally literally today. Can we

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just end with that?

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Speaker 1: So well, I'll start with why it's not the superior legit.

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Who wants to go first?

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Speaker 6: I'll go first. So I used to be Catholic?

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Speaker 1: Where are you now?

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Speaker 3: Orthodox? Been Orthodox for the past eight years? Orthox Christians.

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So I think there's some key things that stand out

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as the reason why Catholicism is not superior. One would

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be the contradictions that I think have occurred in Catholic dogma,

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particularly after the first millennium. You have the notion that

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the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop is necessary for

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salvation from the time of Dictatus Pope in ten ninety

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all the way up to thirteen oh two when I'm

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sunk them. So you have to believe that the pope

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has basically Quiza's hotterog type status. He's the world emperor,

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and if you don't believe that, you will lose your salvation.

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So that was clear dogma in the Middle Ages. Nowadays,

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post Vatican Two, when we go to the documents of

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Vatican two, that is no longer even mentioned. In fact,

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it's de emphasized, and in fact many of the Vatican

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two popes have called for the decatholicizing of various Christian states.

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So one would be that there's a contradiction there the

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relationship with the Church to the other religions. For example,

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in the Middle Ages you have the condemnation of Muslims

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at the Council of n As the abominable sect of Muhammet. Nowadays,

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post Vatican two, post Acumenism post notes rotate, which are

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Vatican two documents. Not only is Islam a selvific religion.

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We can actually go and pray in the mosques towards Mecca,

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which the last several popes have done, exemplifying their faith

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that they can't know. There's also the Abu Dhabi Faith

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Center which has been built now and I'm sure Tim's

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going to take issue with whether you actually can. But

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the Vatican two documents actually do promote, especially the Vatican

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two Acumenist documents, the notion that we can participate with

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and engage in inter religious faith ceremonies and dialogue, which

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is in direct contradiction to Mortalium animos in nineteen twenty

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nine from Piss eleventh, which says that to do so

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is quote the surrendering of the faith. So these are

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a couple contradictions. There's many more than death penalty has

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recently been changed according to Catholic Catechism. Now according to

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Pote Francis, it is quote contrary to the Gospel. If

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you go back to the Catechism of Trent, it was

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said to be part of natural justice or natural law.

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So certainly nobody would believe that the papacy can change

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or alter natural law.

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Speaker 2: But is the implication then that the Orthodox Church is static,

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it doesn't change.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we would argue that the first thousand years of Christianity,

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as you look at it from the Council's perspective and

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the canon law and the church father's teachings, that the

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Orthodox Church is absolutely synonymous.

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Speaker 6: With that church.

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Speaker 3: So it's exactly the same as the first thousand years

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of Christianity Rome and the papacies. What has departed, particularly

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in the eleven, twelve thirteenth centuries.

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Speaker 1: What about you? You're what denomination are you?

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Speaker 4: So I have been a Methodist for many years. I

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have recently began inquiring into the Anglican Catholic Church, which

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is not the Anglican churches in the Church of England,

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nor is it the Episcopal Church and actually split off

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from that, and I want to say nineteen seventy eight

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with Episcopal Church's decision to begin ordaining women. So it

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is a conservative Anglican theology. And to be perfectly honest,

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I don't really disagree with much of what Jay just said.

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Our church largely does tie itself back to the pre

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twelfth century Christian Church tries to emulate that. And that's

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kind of the position of the Anglican Catholic Church is

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we are not the one true Church. We are not

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the perfect representation of Christianity. We are doing our best

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to retain Christianity prior to councils like the Council of

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Trent that we felt changed the religion too much. So,

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like Jay said, it's very much the eleventh century and

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back is what we consider to be the unified Church.

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Speaker 2: I have a question, but I'm gonna wait until you

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can set your position on Catholicism.

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Speaker 4: Great Catholicism is the one true Church.

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Speaker 5: We make this claim based on many premises, but the

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first ones are this indefectibility.

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Speaker 4: The Church can never defect. It won't affect.

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Speaker 5: Our Lord promised that when the spirit of truth comes

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in scripture, he'll guide you into all truth. In John's Gospel,

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Gates of Hell won't prevail against the Church of Matthew's

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Gospel and Firs.

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Speaker 4: Timothy.

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Speaker 5: The Church of the Living God is the pillar and

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bulwark of truth. And therefore our Lord is a liar.

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If there is some change and you know, this is

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a little bit funny because what I'm going to be

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doing is talking about super specific church terms religion terms

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with Jay today, and then we'll be talking about more

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broad things, because really Protestantism isn't technically a religion, it's

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a faith. But we can talk about things like the

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ecumenical councils, the first seven ecumenical councils, about which Orthodox

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and Catholic agree in something like four of these first

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four ecumenical councils.

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Speaker 4: I'll read you chapter in verse.

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Speaker 5: But so Orthodox, the Orthodox has a the you of

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the Pope, which is the church's view, the church's second

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millennium view of the pope, and the Orthodox defected on this.

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Now Protestants defected. They represent the soul of defectibility. Indefectibility

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means that nothing's going to change. Protestants are are religion

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that sprang forth from the earth like Athena from Zeus's

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head in the sixteenth century. It's it's proto Enlightenment, abstract

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rationalism that's vaguely pro Jesus. But Orthodox Catholic debates are

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are more specific because we have to talk about what

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the at the very least the first seven ecumenical councils

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require and the first second ecumenical councils about which Jay

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and I agree. If you go to like number three,

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Ephesus involves the Patriarch of Constantinople, the highest guy in

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their second millennium church, being fired by being requested to

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be fired by other Eastern Orthodox guys like Cyril of Alexandria.

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He writes the Pope and he says, can you excommunicate

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the Patriarch of Constantinople. Thestory is because he's saying this absurdism,

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like like unto what many Protestants say today that marries

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the Mother of Jesus but not God, and so kind

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of like Dwight Schrut says in the office, if you

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are the guy that can, that's actually boss, you can

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make a firing.

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Speaker 4: And tons upon tons upon tons.

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Speaker 5: Of first millennium Eastern thinkers from the Eastern lung of

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the Church associated with Orthodoxy, but also Catholic saints like

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you know, the Cappadocian Fathers, all the Gregory's say, Bowsel

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the Great. They acknowledge the unity, the visible sign of

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unity that is represented on earth by the Pope and

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the headship of the Pope. Just tons upon tons of

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these guys, and tons upon tons of the councils also

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Nicea two, Constantinople, three, Constantinople four. We kind of disagree

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with it about it, and even the union of Florence

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at the Council of Florence, which is an ecumenical council.

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Speaker 4: It was called by an emperor. Well, a lot of

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people don't know this.

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Speaker 5: We had a reunification of the Catholic in the Orthodox churches,

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and it was a legit unification. Thirty one out of

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thirty three bishops in whatever it was, fourteen thirty nine

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of the Orthodox came and voted for unification, including the

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patriarch of Constantinople, and then they went home and essentially

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they were strong armed into nullifying the unification.

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Speaker 2: So let's try and simplify as much as we can

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real quick to make this point. Like I do, I

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do have a question, but is the Orthodox argument is

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you want to stay true to the original view of

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scripture and what it dictates, and is the Catholic view

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that it can be updated and changed by the political

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structures of the religion.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely not, I would say, I would say you have

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that reverse the Orthodox always being centered in Constantinople, were

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close to the emperor. The first thing Constantine did you

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know after he legalized Christianity with the Edict of Milan,

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is he moved the capital from Rome to Constantinople. He

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named the city after himself, which is a badass move,

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chad mu and is tim city Constantine city. And so

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the Orthodox over the remainder of the first Christian millennium,

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they had the patriarch of Constantinople who would be elevated

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to the second most powerful under Rome eventually, and they

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always had they were next to the emperor, and so

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they were always alongside the emperor. And of course there's

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multiple Orthodox churches, so they don't even agree on things

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like whether they can't be one because they can't be

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true to the Gospel, because they don't agree on things

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like whether you can have divorce, whether you can have contraception.

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Whereas the Roman Catholic Church, under the single you know,

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sign of unity, the pope, which everybody hates, they are

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kept together. And the second millennium Catholic view of the

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pope is exactly what the first.

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Speaker 4: Millennial review of the pope was.

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Speaker 3: But Rittinger emits it's not so that he was a lefty.

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Speaker 2: Again, I'm not, you know, I don't follow any of

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the organized religions or anything like that. But real quick,

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I'm just the reason I asked the question is different

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popes have had different positions on cultural issues. I think

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you mentioned the death penalty just now, but there's also

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questions of gay marriage and abortions.

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Speaker 3: Gave the lessons that are allowed in the Francis's and cyclical,

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which was a change from the previous Congregation for the

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Doctor of the Faith, which is basically the successor to

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the Holy Office.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, and I'm not trying to be rude to Tim,

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but Tim didn't actually mention or address any of the

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actual contradictions that I listed. He came up with a

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list of sort of I would say, equivocations on the

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way that different church fathers used the word head. Bazil

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in his letters, for example, talks about the Bishop of

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Antioch being the head of the whole body, the head

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of the world because in his region it was the

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chief see right, because he was dealing with the a

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schism in Antioch. So this flowery language a lot of

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times is used amongst many of the Church Fathers. You

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have at the seventh the Commenical Council the phrase the

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gates of Hell will not prevail against and then guess

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what they use the Emperor. I don't think anybody believes

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that Matthew sixteen is about the emperor. But we can

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find in the acts of the councils, if you have,

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like Prices, books and whatnot, multiple examples of the sort

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of language this use. But that doesn't equate to the

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idea of Vatican one. And like Temple said, not only

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do you have changes in practice or practice, such as

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the complete revolution in the most holy thing in the

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Roman Catholic Church, the liturgy itself. You have a protestantization

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after Vatican two, a liturgical revolution that's more important than

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other types of issues.

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Speaker 6: Like you know, can we have the death penalty?

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Speaker 3: And I think for Roman Catholic theology, the liturgy itself

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is more important. And the post Vatican two popes have

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all enforced the.

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Speaker 6: Dogma of the New Mass.

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Speaker 3: In fact, Francis said in I Think twenty seventeen, I

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have the reference if anyone wants to look and see.

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But he said that the reforms of Vatican two are

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dogmatic magisterial and irreformable. That means that you cannot reject

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any of the things of Vatican two that you don't like,

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even if you want to debate the status of them.

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So not only have the morals and the ideas changed

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and the dogma has changed, even the worship of God

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has undergone a substantial Protestant change.

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Speaker 4: There's no dogma that's changed, there's zero dogmas that What

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about what I'm sunk in the deposit of faith? Ununk

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wait unam sanctum doesn't represent a dogmatic view?

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Speaker 1: What does that mean?

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Speaker 6: So necessary for salvation?

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Speaker 4: And what Nsinger is not the deposit what it's.

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Speaker 3: The collections of Catholic dogma. So it does include what

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is the normative dogma? So how could you think is

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unam sanctum is the thirteen oh two decree of Boniface

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that to be saved, not only must you be in

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co union with the Roman Pope, you must also accept

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the Roman sees temporal supremacy, that he is queizots Hoterac,

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the Roman bishop is the emperor of emperors. In fact,

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all the same terminology that's used in the first statement

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about this in Dictatus Pope in ten ninety is repeated

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not only in When I'm Sanctum, but also all the

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way into the eighteen hundreds into the Syllabus of Errors

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attached to Vatican One. So you're telling me that from

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the thirteen hundreds, from eleven hundred, thirteen hundred, all the

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way up to Vatican One and the Syllabus of Errors,

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all the rejection that they had of the proposition that

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the churches in the state could be separate and that

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you don't have to believe in the temporal supremacy. That

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wasn't dogma, even though it was necessary for salvation.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So what I would say to this is that

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the contradictions which in here in the heart of Orthodox

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Christianity tim are are are more are fundamental, and they're

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literally going to address what I call her Is that

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just too?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: No, is this is really important because the so called tensions, contradictions, developments,

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and things like uh, two swords theory are not at

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the heart of what's considered doctrine. There's reformable doctrine and

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the irreformable doctrine.

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Speaker 6: And what i'm doctrine?

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Speaker 5: What about Because we're looking at people that are are

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Protestant we're talking to Orthodox. The most important thing for

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the listeners out there is if there's a head of

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the church, then if there's a meaningful head of the church,

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then Roman Catholicism is true. And this so we have

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to start at the beginning. Literally, it's not equivocation. This

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is as direct as we can be. If there's a head,

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and we should we should be specific. Let's let's be

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specific to the actual councils about which we agree, and

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that This is what Jay is going to be trying

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to avoid today, is that the seven councils that they

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accept defines what the pope is and the specific kind

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of headship that the visible sign of unity on earth

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that they are. I'll read some to you in a

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second from Emphasis from Nicia two from Constant Noble.

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Speaker 4: Three to four.

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Speaker 5: And if there's a pope that is a meaningful boss

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that is appealed to with a kind of appellate supreme jurisdiction,

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then Roman cathals is a mass to be true, because

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it's the only one of the three sects that represents this.

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So listen to what was said at Ephesus, signed onto

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by the Orthodox Holy and Blessed Peter the Prince and

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head of the Apostles, the column of Faith, the foundation

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of the Catholic Church. The Prince of the Apostles received

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the keys of the Kingdom of from our Lord Jesus Christ,

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and that to him was given the power of binding

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and loosing sins, who until this day and forever lives

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and judges in his successors. Now, what happened leading to

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the Third Ecumenical Council Ephesus is you have this guy

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in Nestorius that's teaching falsely. He's the patriarch of Constantinople,

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that that Mary was mother to human Jesus, but not

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God Jesus dividing his natures. Lots of Protestants today say

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this neither Orthodox nor Catholic.

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Speaker 3: Clust or lots of person, not the nature's right.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, yeah, dividing his person, not the nature.

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Speaker 5: So Cyril of Alexandria writes, the pope writes the boss

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of the churches, or early early on, this is the

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exact view of the papacy that the Roman Catholic Church has. Now,

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it's a collegial first, but the Orthodox are going to

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hit you with this idea that the pope was merely

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the first among equals. This is one of those nonsense

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terms that would mean like a roundtable where he's not

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actually appealed to. He doesn't have a kind of appellate jurisdiction.

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He would not be able to excommunicate any of the

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other patriarchs. And so they they write to him, and

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Cyril says, to the Pope, we rely on the authority

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of the blessed Apostle Peter, on whom the church was founded,

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and whose success of the Blessed Celestine, who his pope

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at the time is.

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Speaker 4: He also says, your holiness.

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Speaker 5: Who holds the place of Peter, the Prince of the

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Apostles has rightly judged this matter and condemned the stories.

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Now what Jay and the Orthodox have to say is

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that it's merely honorary position.

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Speaker 4: But he could fire people well like you would tell me.

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Speaker 6: I can I address that up.

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Speaker 4: I just want to I want to cut I mean,

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I think the term prince here is very important because prince.

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A prince is not an emperor. A prince is not

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a king. A prince is first citizen princeps That's what

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the word meant, princess prerogative. Prerogative goes with sure, but

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what what the orthoro appealing to his prerogative. What the

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Orthodox position is and what the Protestant position is historically

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is that the pope has primacy, he is first among equals.

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That does not mean that he gets to unilaterally make

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decisions in in an objection, in the objection to the

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other pope.

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Speaker 5: Well, that that fault that runs vul of ephesis. I'll

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read you and I see it too, after Jay says.

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Speaker 3: So I'll answer his claim from emphesis, and that the

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idea of an appleate jurisdiction.

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Speaker 6: Everyone is well aware of this.

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Speaker 3: In fact, the Vatican itself has a great commentary on

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the meaning of this appellate structure in the recent document

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from Chi eighty, which is a Vaticant approved document on

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exactly what.

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Speaker 6: Was not authoritative, it's a proved document.

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Speaker 3: So this is what. This is what Rome nowadays says him.

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Doesn't like what Rome says nowadays, but this is what

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not dogmatic what It doesn't matter because this is what

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Rome says nowadays, not a Church document.

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Speaker 4: It's dogmatical, dogmatic.

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Speaker 3: Your quote mind isn't dogmatic either, So allow me to

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allow me to.

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Speaker 1: It is just real quick. This is one of the

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most esoteric debates.

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Speaker 2: Ever, it's going to be there are even Christians of

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each denomination been like, what are they talking about?

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Speaker 3: So what Rome nowadays says about this is that Sartica

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was received at the Council of Trello. The Canons of

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Sartica determined that a bishop who has been condemned can

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appeal to the Bishop of Rome, and that the latter,

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if he likes it or deems it appropriate, can order

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a retrial. Notice it is not a unilateral statement, very

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contrary to exact to the reading that you gave of it.

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He can order a retrial to be conducted by the

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bishops in the province neighboring that bishop. It is not

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real room unilaterally deciding it totally contrary to the reading

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that he gave of it. And then it says such

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appeals it doesn't matter. Such appeals two major seeds were

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always treated in a sonodal way. Appeals to the Bishop

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of Rome from the East expressed the community of the church,

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but the but Rome did not exercise canonical jurisdiction over

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the churches of the East. So when Athenasius gets appeals

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to excommunicate people, does that make athenacious The head of

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the church.

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Speaker 6: Of course not that's eighties.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't matter because it's Rome's present statement on what

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your church's tradition is. These are so this is what happens.

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Pick and choose the documents that you don't like. So

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this is Rome so more then the Roman theologians. Now,

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00:20:30,839 --> 00:20:34,319
because Rome actually says what I'm saying about apple jurisdiction,

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I understand a retrial. Can you name a single scholar

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that talks about this that doesn't have the giady of view?

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, all of the scholars who aren't with community.

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Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, that is.

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Speaker 4: That is not one.

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Speaker 6: Let me name one.

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Speaker 5: Let me see, scholars aren't the mind of the church.

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Speaker 4: By the way, really, I'm talking about dogma. It hasn't changed.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like the three dogmas I listened to, Dogma

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one is the contradiction those were in dogmas.

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Speaker 4: See it too, so was on the christ Book.

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Speaker 3: When I'm sicked, When I'm sicked them all the way

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up until syllabus of errors is necessary for salvation And

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it's not.

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Speaker 5: Dog But we're talking about the first seven councils. Let's

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get to you talking about that. I'm the reason I'm

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talking about it is because Jay, because well if the.

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Speaker 4: If the first seven councils didn't be with the current

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position of the church.

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Speaker 5: But see the trick is that. So what we have

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we have is quote my perio, you have thirty nine

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thousand sec. Nine thousands. Okay, no we are there are

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fourteen Auducephalus. There are fourteen Autocephalist churches. So the tensions

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resides in for for we're autphalus fourteen.

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Speaker 6: Do you know where it comes where?

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Speaker 5: But so autocephalus churches what relatively unified with themselves? He

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dates we have when you have a business back century,

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when you have one holy Roman Catholic Church, the fore

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marks of the church. This comes from nicea one. When

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you have one, there's of course, this is what they're

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playing on. It's a strong rhetorical position. Naturally, there's going

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to be lots of disparity within the religion, and so

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documents have to be ordered hierarchically. What's called the depositom fide,

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what never changes in the church, best represented in real

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time by something called the act of apostolic Ascetus is

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something that is airtight. And there are tons and tons

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of liberal scholars since Vatican two, since Vatican One that

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present opinions that they alied on. Francis is probably the

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worst pope we've ever had that do not make it

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into the act Apostolic ascetis, and certainly don't make it

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into the deposit of Faith. I thought we'd come here

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and talk about the first seven Councils because it's that

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which we agree about. Me and I see it too.

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Let me just get this out.

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Speaker 4: It says this.

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Speaker 5: If you think that that I was quote mining Ephesus Jay,

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primatial authority everywhere on earth was given by the Redeemer

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of the world himself, Jesus to the blessed Apostle Peter,

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through the same Apostle the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman

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Church has held till now and will hold for all

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time primacy and sovereign authority.

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Speaker 4: So you have the lineage there.

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Speaker 5: It's for all time, it's primacy, it's sovereign authority. If

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there's a head of the Church that can fire other guys,

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then this is the kind of pope that the Roman

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Catholic Church describes as.

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Speaker 3: A huge objection to this. First of all, Pope Virgilius

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at the Fifth Ecumenical Council in the Acts of Constantinople two,

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the council decrees that he be excommunicated and removed from

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the Diptys Virgilius submitted to the council. Does that sound

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like a autocratic position or does it sound like the

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councils above the pope collegial?

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Speaker 4: No, it's not. No, the pope is collegial.

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Speaker 5: This is exactly what Vatican one says. Vatican one says

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that the pope has a collegial relationship to the rest.

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Speaker 6: Of the bishop, but does it say that he relies

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on the church to doing it?

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Speaker 5: Submitted to the pope, same as you know, i'mius.

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Speaker 3: The people ain't gonna fall this, but bill to the council,

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not the pope. Yeah, but Jillius was excommunicated by the council.

473
00:23:58,559 --> 00:24:01,599
Speaker 5: Right, According to Richard Price, the pope submitted to the council.

474
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,880
You said, Yeah, that's what the post one view.

475
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 4: The pope submitting to the council not prove that the

476
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:09,319
council has.

477
00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:12,279
Speaker 5: At all, No, no, no proofs that the pope bears a

478
00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:13,519
collegial relationship.

479
00:24:13,599 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 3: Listen, Vatican one says that the council is not above

480
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,359
a pope. You know that, so of course it's not

481
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,640
above a pope. And why is Vigilius submitting.

482
00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 5: Because everyone else, Protestants and Orthodox misunderstand what the pope's

483
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,359
primacy that seems quite convenient primacy exactly well it is,

484
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,920
it's it's well, it's highly inconvenient to the Catholic argument

485
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,599
that you misunderstand it. The pope's relationship to all of

486
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,319
the all of the other churches is specifically this.

487
00:24:39,599 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 4: He is sorry to the bishops. Is this he's collegial.

488
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 5: He has this ex cathedral power to declare infallible truth

489
00:24:49,319 --> 00:24:52,160
when and only when he makes the claim, and most

490
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,799
of the time the only two times we know that

491
00:24:53,839 --> 00:24:56,559
he's used the power in the last thousand years. Everyone

492
00:24:56,599 --> 00:25:00,359
misunderstands it. What he did first in eighteen fifty four

493
00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:03,799
and then in nineteen fifty is he pulled all the

494
00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:06,240
bishops of the world to make sure that this ex

495
00:25:06,319 --> 00:25:09,519
catho draw power which is not oracular. He's not divining

496
00:25:09,519 --> 00:25:11,839
out of his head magical truths that have never been

497
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,519
taught the pope. Because the Roman Catholic Church is the

498
00:25:14,519 --> 00:25:16,680
one church that goes all the way back to Scripture,

499
00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:19,279
the pope wants to make sure that bishops always and

500
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,559
everywhere have taught the immaculation objection.

501
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 4: Thought also, how does make rich alone? Go back to scripture.

502
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,039
Speaker 5: You see the distinction, though, tim So when the Pope

503
00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:31,759
says I'm going to say something the ex cathedra and

504
00:25:31,839 --> 00:25:35,680
everyone goes apious. This is not he's divining when he

505
00:25:36,599 --> 00:25:40,640
special the pope has a collegial relationship to the bishops.

506
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 3: I got their boss, I got community. Then he can't

507
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,519
be he can't be fired if he's their boss. And

508
00:25:46,599 --> 00:25:48,119
that's exactly what happens with the vigilius.

509
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 4: It's more like the board of a company firing.

510
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 3: This one says that the pope is not superior to

511
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:53,480
a council.

512
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 6: He doesn't submit to the council.

513
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,039
Speaker 2: Okay, let me ask you said it, you said it, Okay,

514
00:25:57,039 --> 00:25:58,759
I got a question. I'm not a Catholic. I got

515
00:25:58,759 --> 00:26:00,079
no idea. What half the stuff you got your and

516
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,039
all these Latin things and everything you said? The Pope

517
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:04,640
can decree infallible truth?

518
00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: Am I wrong?

519
00:26:05,319 --> 00:26:08,039
Speaker 4: Is that he say when he speaks from his special

520
00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:09,400
chair from pastor.

521
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: So if he's if he's in his is it actually

522
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:12,440
a special chair?

523
00:26:12,599 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 4: Like? What is it? From the chair?

524
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 2: So from the chair he can declare something to be true,

525
00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:22,119
like if he said gary marriage is never a thing.

526
00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:24,319
Speaker 1: Is that an example of what he might say.

527
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, he could also say the opposite. He would have

528
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:29,440
to respect it, of course, right, And here's the proof.

529
00:26:29,759 --> 00:26:32,319
Speaker 5: He could say something ex cathedra has never been declared

530
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:35,200
that wasn't held from all time, the beginning of the church,

531
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:36,599
which is what happened.

532
00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:37,799
Speaker 4: I didn't really get it out.

533
00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:41,039
Speaker 5: When the pope has made ex cathedra claims, there are

534
00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:43,720
things that he pulled the bishops on first to prove

535
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,519
that Vatican One was not a new lone ranger view

536
00:26:46,519 --> 00:26:47,039
of the pope.

537
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 4: He's not an autocrat.

538
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,079
Speaker 5: It's just a quick way of safeguard or something that

539
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,680
was always taught the bishops.

540
00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:56,759
Speaker 4: He did claim to be an autocrat. He fully claimed that.

541
00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: Clarify my point. He is not deciding that he wants

542
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,559
gay marriage when he says it. He is sitting in

543
00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:06,000
the chair and saying what the church believes, based on

544
00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:06,839
what the church believes.

545
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,319
Speaker 5: That your point, well, the church doesn't have gay marriage,

546
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,200
never has never en.

547
00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:12,799
Speaker 2: My point is if the pope went to a chair

548
00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:15,160
and said there is no gay marriage, it's not that

549
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,039
he's deciding it. He's saying, this is what the Church

550
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,440
has always held to be true.

551
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,799
Speaker 5: Precisely, yeah, and that's what everyone misunderstands at Pastor attornis

552
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,640
Vatican One the most important thing?

553
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,039
Speaker 2: And so hold on, sorry, And then it would sound

554
00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:30,839
to me the issue of removing a pope would be

555
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,039
if he was clearly stating things that were fallible untruths

556
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:34,799
from the chair.

557
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 3: Well, the first question, yes, correct, is the notion of

558
00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:41,839
that authority, whether he actually possesses the Vatican One authority.

559
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,720
That Tim is reading back into the many examples that

560
00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:50,160
contradict his reading. For example, Pope Vigilius is literally excomunicated

561
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,440
and suspended at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. That's from Richard Price,

562
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,880
the famous Catholic scholars translation of the Acts of the Council.

563
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,839
And so the argument is not that the pope has

564
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,839
no relationship to the bishops, so he deflected and defeated

565
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,880
a strawman. The argument is that at the time of

566
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,519
the Fifth Ecumenical Council, the Pope submitted to and was

567
00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:16,759
excommunicated by the council. And then now at Vatican One,

568
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,319
it says the literal opposite that no council is above

569
00:28:20,599 --> 00:28:23,440
or can't fire the pope. So it's a complete contradiction,

570
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,240
and it's not just Vigilius. Tim said in his opening

571
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,680
statement that the Church via the roman Sea cannot defect.

572
00:28:30,759 --> 00:28:33,160
If it could, it would lose one of its constituent components.

573
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,799
And yet at the next Ecumenical Council, the sixth Council,

574
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,079
Pope Honorius famously is a heretic.

575
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:39,839
Speaker 6: He did defect.

576
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,519
Speaker 3: All he did was write one letter that contained heretical statements,

577
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:46,000
and the Church at that council said he is a Heritic.

578
00:28:46,079 --> 00:28:50,119
He's defected, and then three subsequent councils after also reaffirmed

579
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,920
that condemnation. So again, indefectibility.

580
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 6: The notion of.

581
00:28:54,359 --> 00:28:58,559
Speaker 3: Authority is all fluctuating and elastic, depending upon what Tim

582
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:00,640
needs to be the case at the time. His only

583
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,960
answer was a too quotua and he didn't address any

584
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:03,400
of the things that.

585
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 4: I want to build on what he just said too,

586
00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:15,839
Because if if Enorious had declared monothelitism ex Cathedral to

587
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:17,759
be the truth, what would you have to believe?

588
00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 5: Well, the claim of the Church is that the church

589
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,759
is indefectible. This is Christ's promise.

590
00:29:24,039 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: Roman Sea is ineffectible. Says the Roman sea is indefectible. Okay,

591
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,599
the Roman Sea is indefectible. Insofar as this this requires interpretation.

592
00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:35,440
What if you get an honorious What if you get Yeah,

593
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,920
if you get it's a system.

594
00:29:38,039 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 5: The theological opinion, whether we're going to Suarez or Bellaman

595
00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:45,960
or Francis Xavier, theological opinion can vary on this because

596
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,400
what what happens?

597
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,359
Speaker 4: Then? Obviously we know the church has to be one.

598
00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 5: It's got to be whole holy, it's got to be Catholic,

599
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,079
it's got to be Apostolic the Roman.

600
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,519
Speaker 4: Church, why does it have to respect the pope? At

601
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,559
least let me get an emerald prince.

602
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,599
Speaker 5: I don't to talk to two two barking dogs, so

603
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,119
let let me just let me get it out.

604
00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 4: We have to make these things really clear.

605
00:30:05,519 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: First, Jodd Nelson's getting met uh more of a bobcat

606
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,279
really uh And I see it too, primacial authority everywhere.

607
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 5: What what does this mean to you, Tim if you

608
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,119
were to hear Constantinople three, Because if you're if your claim,

609
00:30:20,119 --> 00:30:22,400
if the claim is that I'm expanding upon the view,

610
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,880
you know, the Catholic view of of what the Orthodox

611
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,839
view of popes might have been in the first millennium.

612
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,960
Then just explain what this language means, that that the

613
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,839
Church has never aired from the path of apostolic tradition,

614
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,960
nor she's been depraved by yielding to heretical innovations. But

615
00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:41,799
from the beginning she has received the Christian faith from

616
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:44,440
her founders, the princes of the Apostles of Christ, and

617
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:47,319
remains undefiled to the end according to the divine promise

618
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:50,279
of the Lord and Savior himself. Now, because there are

619
00:30:50,559 --> 00:30:52,960
there are bad popes in history, there are lots of them.

620
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,359
Speaker 4: We've had two hundred thirty seven, not just you have to.

621
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,799
Speaker 5: Differentiate between which you know one in this audience ten percent,

622
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,160
between material and formal heretics, right, which is going to

623
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,839
take another five minutes. I'm not going to get out

624
00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:08,759
what i want to say because I'm defending this position.

625
00:31:09,039 --> 00:31:12,160
Look at Constantinople four. You can't have material heretics, you

626
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,079
can't have formal heretics. Constant Nople four. What does this

627
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,319
mean to you? This is a the the eight hundred

628
00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:20,839
and seventy nine version. It was originally convened in eight

629
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,079
sixty nine. That's the Catholic version. I'm reading from the

630
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,200
Orthodox document. Listen to this, What do you do with this?

631
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,279
For just the Apostolic throne, having received the keys of

632
00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:31,559
the Kingdom of Heaven from the First and Great High

633
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:34,920
Priest Jesus Christ, through the chief of the Apostles, Peter,

634
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,119
he has the authority of universal binding and loosing. Binding

635
00:31:39,119 --> 00:31:42,440
and loosing is the power to forgive sins, which Protestants

636
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,359
don't have at all. Orthodox have it. But except this

637
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,519
is an Orthodox document, this is an Orthodox council. We

638
00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:51,319
hold this council to him, he Peter, that's my whole.

639
00:31:51,319 --> 00:31:54,839
Speaker 4: We have this council. If he don't disagree with you. You

640
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:57,319
don't have bishops, Yes, we do. The guy in the room,

641
00:31:57,359 --> 00:31:59,079
we do have bishops. And they go all the way

642
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:00,599
back to Aristobola. They're Britain.

643
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 5: What does this mean to you, Bishop? And as the

644
00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:07,799
authority of universal binding and loosing? They say, this is

645
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,839
just a symbolic power. Jolli honorific. It's merely first emoment.

646
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,720
Now now hold on, if you're appealed to.

647
00:32:16,119 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: I think that all twelve apostles have the power to

648
00:32:18,279 --> 00:32:22,160
forgive sin, of course, of course, but only one has

649
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:26,440
what's called here at in this particular council the power

650
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,279
of universal binding and loosing, which is why you would

651
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:32,119
appeal to a pope to excommunicate the second in charge

652
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:34,119
of the church. You have to get you have to

653
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:34,839
tell me how.

654
00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,599
Speaker 3: And that's why a council can excommunicate the post, because

655
00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:39,200
the councils above communicate.

656
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:43,759
Speaker 4: I just read the bishops are above the.

657
00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:48,119
Speaker 3: Pot The acts of the council say the Julius was excommunicated.

658
00:32:48,359 --> 00:32:50,559
Your translation of your people say he was.

659
00:32:50,599 --> 00:32:53,279
Speaker 2: I would like to hear from you, guys, what about

660
00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:57,759
the arguments you've made or believe makes your denomination superior

661
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,799
in the true sense of the word superior. Are you

662
00:33:00,839 --> 00:33:03,599
saying that it's because you are right, you are correct,

663
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,160
or is there something about your belief that inherently better

664
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,440
serves the people and God.

665
00:33:09,039 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 4: The I mean, just to be very clear, the Anglican

666
00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:14,440
Catholic position, and by extension, the Methodist position, because Methodists

667
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,039
are Anglicans, is that the Methodist Church, the Anglican Church,

668
00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:20,839
all of them. They're not the superior, one true church.

669
00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:25,319
They are a group of Christians in their genuine, best effort,

670
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,640
attempting to follow Christ in the most proper way possible.

671
00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:32,960
Using the seven Ecumenical councils using the seven sacraments. We

672
00:33:33,119 --> 00:33:36,559
are Catholic up until the end of the eleventh century.

673
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,400
Why what happened then we began to disagree with the pope?

674
00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:43,359
I mean it's a long process. The Reformation did not

675
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,519
happen in fifteen seven.

676
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:46,279
Speaker 2: Eleventh century. A pope came in who was saying stuff

677
00:33:46,319 --> 00:33:47,240
that was like way wrong.

678
00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:49,839
Speaker 4: I would argue it started with Gregory the seventh, probably

679
00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:52,720
with the Dictatus pape and him coming out and because

680
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,359
of a literal political situation, this was not a theological issue.

681
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,000
If here's a political.

682
00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 3: Question, you're an Anglican, then do you agree with the

683
00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:01,599
Anglican Catholic?

684
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:03,559
Speaker 6: I don't agree with the branch.

685
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,079
Speaker 4: Can you elaborate on the branch theory?

686
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,079
Speaker 3: It's the typical Anglin idea that the Church is split

687
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:09,719
amongst a bunch of different branches.

688
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 4: I think I think that would probably.

689
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 3: Do you think that any of the people who compose

690
00:34:15,039 --> 00:34:18,320
the documents and the canons at the seven Ecumenical councils

691
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,840
believe that the Church was divided amongst a bunch of

692
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:21,679
different sects?

693
00:34:22,079 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 4: I don't, well, I I mean orthodox.

694
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:31,199
Speaker 3: Now, could you name anybody that believed that about the

695
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:32,079
nature of the church.

696
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 4: I don't know that I would agree that it was

697
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,280
necessarily divided into several sects. And I don't know that

698
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:38,559
my church would agree with that either.

699
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 3: I think, don't you agree with the idea that Protestants

700
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,400
are trying their best and whether they're Methodists or whether

701
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:44,679
they're Anglican doesn't really matter.

702
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 4: No, I would say that there are Protestant sects that

703
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:48,559
are is.

704
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 3: The church divided amongst those branches.

705
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,079
Speaker 4: Today? Yes?

706
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 3: Okay, did anyone in those seven councils have that idea

707
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:58,320
about the.

708
00:34:58,320 --> 00:34:59,079
Speaker 6: Nature of the church.

709
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 4: No, But I'll so don't think that your so, your.

710
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,199
Speaker 3: Church is not in communion with those ideas.

711
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 4: My church is not in communicant with the Anglican communion.

712
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,960
We're we're not Anglicans. We're Anglican Catholics.

713
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 3: We hold our asking you about the first thousand years

714
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,039
of Christianity, yes.

715
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,639
Speaker 4: We have, but you have a we are in agreement

716
00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:17,840
with all seven you're.

717
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 3: Not because you just you couldn't name anybody that had

718
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:21,880
your ecclesiology of those.

719
00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 4: I don't think we're having I don't think we're having converse.

720
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,079
Speaker 3: Maybe you should get on this conversation and answer the question,

721
00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:29,519
because that's what we're doing here today.

722
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 4: The terminology you're using is confusing to me.

723
00:35:33,039 --> 00:35:34,559
Speaker 6: Is common no.

724
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 3: Ecclesiology that the people the first thousand years had, Did

725
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,639
anyone of them have a branch theory?

726
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 6: Or that the church is divided amongst a bunch of groups.

727
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,199
Speaker 4: Again, I don't think we're having the same conversation. I

728
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:49,960
think we got off base at a certain point here.

729
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 3: Does your ecclesiology have any basis in the first thousand years?

730
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 4: Yes, we trace all of our ecclesiology back to the

731
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:56,519
first thousand.

732
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 3: Name a church father or or a council that has

733
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,440
your branch the review of the church.

734
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,599
Speaker 4: I think branch theory is where we're having a disagreement here.

735
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:08,599
Speaker 3: It's a classic Anglican term for the nature of the church.

736
00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:11,880
That's how they justified their reformation position. So tell me

737
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,079
one church father or a council that has that position

738
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:16,719
about the church is a very simple question, I I

739
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:17,280
off the top.

740
00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 4: So it's a historical Off the top of my head,

741
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:20,960
I can't give you answer.

742
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 5: With Jay's asking him for people out there listening about

743
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,599
a historical When when a Protestant claims that I'm with

744
00:36:29,639 --> 00:36:31,679
the Church. I was with the Church the same way

745
00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:35,760
that the Orthodox were until ten fifty four. Set aside

746
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,400
who excommunicated whom for a second. They might agree in

747
00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:44,079
abstracted which is why I called it abstract enlightenment rationalism.

748
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,119
They might agree in abstracted with what was going on,

749
00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:49,679
you know, with the Orthodox or with the Catholics. They

750
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,199
might favor They're always going to favor the Orthodox because

751
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,559
none of these groups like the pope or the unity

752
00:36:54,599 --> 00:36:58,360
required by a papacy. But what Jay was asking here

753
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:03,159
is for it to be true Christianity, true true Christianity

754
00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:04,079
in its truest.

755
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 4: Sense, it's got to be one holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

756
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 5: There's a problem for the one mark and the Catholic

757
00:37:09,519 --> 00:37:13,920
mark for Orthodox. But Orthodox are actually Christian in so

758
00:37:14,079 --> 00:37:17,880
far as they have the seven Sacraments and all of

759
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,320
their bishops can be traced back to one of the apostles.

760
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 4: That's what he was asking about ecclesiology.

761
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 5: So when they say, all, I agree with this, but no,

762
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,639
no Protestant has the seven sacraments or a bishop.

763
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 4: We have the seven sacraments, I have bishops.

764
00:37:33,599 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna get very reductive and simplify everything

765
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,679
to a ridiculous degree and ask questions that maybe are

766
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,719
ridiculously rudimentary for the Christian. Do you guys all like

767
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,880
when it comes to like Mosaic law, laws of Leviticus,

768
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,679
do you all follow those or are they considered archaic?

769
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,320
How does the Old Testament play a role in how

770
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,199
you live your lives.

771
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: And what rules you follow?

772
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,159
Speaker 4: We have we're under the New Covenant. We yeah, So

773
00:38:00,159 --> 00:38:00,880
what does that mean?

774
00:38:01,039 --> 00:38:04,679
Speaker 2: I just don't know, like the New Testament, So the

775
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:05,880
laws of Leviticus, don't know?

776
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, the laws of Leviticus are specifically made for a

777
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,039
very specific period in Jewish history, and there are that

778
00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:15,159
Jesus does not come to erase the law. He comes

779
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,280
to fulfill the law. So his position in the hierarchy

780
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,079
is not as somebody who washes things away, it's somebody

781
00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:24,800
who fulfills it. The law was basically a series of

782
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,239
things that Jews had to do to stay in communion

783
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,280
with God. Christ gives us a different set of rules.

784
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,800
That doesn't mean we'd ignore everything, but it means we

785
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,199
take his authority over the old law.

786
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 2: So does that mean that when it comes to all

787
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,440
of the old Testament's rules. Are there some that remain

788
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,239
based on Jesus said outright, these are still to remain,

789
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,760
and these are not to remain. How do you and

790
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,119
this is not a question, how do you know which

791
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,199
I don't imagine that Jesus addressed literally every single rule

792
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:54,559
or law.

793
00:38:54,599 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: How do you know which ones to fobiably?

794
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 6: Well?

795
00:38:57,079 --> 00:38:59,519
Speaker 3: One way we disagree with him is to a degree,

796
00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:02,159
not totally, but I mean Orthodox and Catholics agree that

797
00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:04,840
there is an oral tradition that's passed on from the apostles.

798
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,159
So you have with the written text of the New Testament,

799
00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:09,679
which the early Church didn't have a Bible, they had

800
00:39:10,119 --> 00:39:13,039
some documents, they had some letters, and they had tradition,

801
00:39:13,119 --> 00:39:15,480
and they had the church service, so everything was kind

802
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:15,880
of done.

803
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 6: In a liturgical service way.

804
00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 3: You would be getting catechized orally, and then eventually the

805
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,039
Bible gets collected in later centuries to be the canon.

806
00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:28,360
But so basically, tradition and the Bible lets you know

807
00:39:29,039 --> 00:39:30,800
what things carry over and what don't. And that's one

808
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,519
of the reasons why the councils have Church law. So

809
00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:35,440
church law kind of helps interpret that.

810
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:37,199
Speaker 1: So I have a question. I'm prively pouncing this wrong.

811
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,880
But how do you all view who to writes?

812
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 6: Is it the word Anabaptists?

813
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, yeah, how do you how do y'all view them?

814
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:45,320
Are they we.

815
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,679
Speaker 6: Would say they're heterodox.

816
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're outside of the.

817
00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:52,639
Speaker 2: I think you guys would all agree it's a documinish

818
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,480
So this is going to be a kindergartener level. Uh,

819
00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:01,320
you know urban liberals argument for the Christians right now?

820
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,880
Why I say this, but is it not one of

821
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,840
the instructions of God to be fruitful and multiply?

822
00:40:06,639 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 4: Yes?

823
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,159
Speaker 2: Sure, So we're having a conversation over what is the

824
00:40:09,159 --> 00:40:11,119
the superior denomination?

825
00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: Watch look it up. I don't think Mormons count no

826
00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:16,360
offense to Mormons.

827
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: I think for the purpose of this debate, Mormons are

828
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:20,400
a different area.

829
00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 4: They're right, Mormons are nontrinitarian. They don't believe in the

830
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:24,079
same God that we do.

831
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: Pentecostals have a two point one fertility rate and hooter

832
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,360
Rightes have six to two seven fertility rate. After that,

833
00:40:34,039 --> 00:40:37,480
Conservative Protestants one point eight, Catholics one point nine, Orthodox

834
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:41,559
one point nine. Jovah's witness slight less than two Protestants

835
00:40:41,639 --> 00:40:45,519
one point five to one point six. Liberal Protestants one

836
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:49,719
point five and unaffiliated Christians one point three to one

837
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,400
point eight. So the Pentecostals and hutter Rights, according to

838
00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:58,559
just a cursorysearch, are the only actual groups that are

839
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:02,039
being fruitful and multiplying, and that's to be honest, only

840
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:07,400
the Hooterites, the Amish, Anabaptists, everybody else and having kids.

841
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,159
Speaker 3: I think traditional Catholics are having kids.

842
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: Uh, just a cursor research, it is around one point

843
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:14,960
nine two. I thought it was a little higher than that.

844
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,199
Speaker 4: There's not much of a difference between our three sects.

845
00:41:17,519 --> 00:41:18,519
Speaker 1: Y'all ain't having kids.

846
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 5: Well, if you go to multiply, what are you going

847
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,119
with the Tridentine Latin mass It's a very different group.

848
00:41:23,199 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 4: And I'm going to ask Chchi and know it's going

849
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:28,400
to be above the part I do. I do really quickly.

850
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:29,800
While he's doing that, I want to come back because

851
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,440
I will have an opportunity to sit down and think

852
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,440
about the branch theory thing. Do you not have a

853
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,480
Russian Orthodox, a Greek Orthodox An Orthodox Church in America?

854
00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 6: Those are not branches.

855
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,199
Speaker 3: It's not at all the same ecclesiology of Anglican branch theory.

856
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 4: That's all I would point out that branch theory is

857
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,880
not dogmatic.

858
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,559
Speaker 6: It's but I was just looking for whatever it was.

859
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 4: I know. But the Anglican position is that we were

860
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,880
part of the one true, Holy Apostolic Catholic Church, and

861
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,079
then you're not and then that church.

862
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 6: What's dogma in your church?

863
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 4: How do you determine it the same way that Catholics

864
00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:02,800
and Orthodox But we don't have we no longer have

865
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:03,480
a pope, but we are.

866
00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: Councils of bishops, So how do you determine them?

867
00:42:06,079 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 4: We have councils of bishops?

868
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:09,599
Speaker 6: Okay, but what's a dogma?

869
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 2: Like?

870
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:11,119
Speaker 6: Do you accept icons?

871
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,679
Speaker 4: No? Well, yes, we were not iconoclasts.

872
00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:16,199
Speaker 3: Well, but is it a dogma or is it an opinion?

873
00:42:16,199 --> 00:42:18,679
Speaker 4: Because most of the same position as the Roman Catholic Church.

874
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 3: No, you don't because Orthodox and a Roman Catholics excommunicate

875
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,400
people that don't believe in imagery, and most Protestants historically

876
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,320
have allowed it to be something that's an opinion audio offer.

877
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 4: There is a lot of pious opinion.

878
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 6: So is it a dogma or not? That's the question.

879
00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 4: I'm not sure exactly what icons. I don't believe that

880
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,519
we excommunicate people for thinking that icons, so.

881
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,559
Speaker 3: It's not a dogma, and thus many of the basics

882
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:41,800
are not actually settled in.

883
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 4: It depends on the if we're in again, I'm not

884
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,639
as well versed on the specifics of the councils, but

885
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,519
if it's in this first seven councils, we're in the

886
00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:51,920
same We're of the same opinion.

887
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 5: But the problem with your ecclesiology is that when there

888
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,159
are no leaders, right, I mean.

889
00:42:56,159 --> 00:42:58,519
Speaker 4: We have bishops, we have archbishops. I don't know why

890
00:42:58,519 --> 00:42:59,159
we keep coming to the.

891
00:42:59,159 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 5: Bishops that that can trace the lineage, yes, way back

892
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:02,199
to one.

893
00:43:02,199 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 4: We can trace back to Augustin of Britain, and we

894
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,480
can trace back to ball Orthodox and Roman Catholics. Our

895
00:43:08,519 --> 00:43:10,320
bishops traced back to the first century a d.

896
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 6: In Britain.

897
00:43:11,159 --> 00:43:15,199
Speaker 4: Okay that according to your if you have a totally no, no,

898
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,559
it's not a broken lineage. The church remained in Britain

899
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,159
even after the Saxons got.

900
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,559
Speaker 5: They're identifying as an Anglican Catholic today, yes, or you're

901
00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:22,679
identifying as a Methodist.

902
00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:25,079
Speaker 4: I'm identifying as a Methodist who is inquiring into the

903
00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:27,719
Anglican Catholic Church getting later this year. I mean this

904
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,920
is part of the pitch right now, we're having a

905
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:32,960
historical discussion. I am a historian, but we're having a

906
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,039
conversation about history right now. So your church recognizes the

907
00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:38,559
risk of ballast of Britain. Your church recognizes the risk time.

908
00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:40,199
Speaker 3: You're a historian, but you didn't know about branch theory,

909
00:43:40,199 --> 00:43:41,280
which is like the number one.

910
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,159
Speaker 4: I'm not a religious historian. I'm a historian on medieval

911
00:43:45,199 --> 00:43:48,840
historian specifically. So when we're looking at this arista, Ballus

912
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,480
is the earliest week can go back with the Anglican

913
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,320
Catholic Church because of the union between the churches in

914
00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:00,519
Kent andology. No not, I I know that's that's fair.

915
00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 5: It's just you're not You're not a faithful representatively both

916
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:05,440
in your church is acknowledgeious?

917
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:06,159
Speaker 6: We don't.

918
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 3: We don't acknowledge your ecclesiology. You understand that from the

919
00:44:09,079 --> 00:44:11,880
Orthodox perspective, it doesn't matter if you have a laying

920
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,440
on of hands.

921
00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 4: Is Augustine legitimate?

922
00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 3: If you leave the faith of the church, none of that.

923
00:44:16,519 --> 00:44:18,199
Speaker 6: From the Orthodox perspective.

924
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,639
Speaker 4: I can't leave the faith the church. That's our position.

925
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:22,599
Speaker 6: I know your position.

926
00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:27,199
Speaker 3: I'm saying from our position, our ecclesiology doesn't recognize your ecclesiology,

927
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,159
nor does his. They think that Anglican orders are invalid

928
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:31,280
via the other thirteenth.

929
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 4: That's so, that's because that's what's convenient to their theology.

930
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,960
It doesn't actually have any sort of I'm.

931
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,599
Speaker 3: Saying that either of us recognizes your lineage, and I

932
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,639
understand that you think that it's there, But that's why

933
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:41,280
is there.

934
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 4: That's why it all the way back to only.

935
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 3: On the basis of your ecclesiology, and presupposing we haven't lineage.

936
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,079
Speaker 4: We know we have an ordination that goes on.

937
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,039
Speaker 6: The basis of your ecclesiology.

938
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 5: You understand people out there and need to understand that

939
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,840
there there There is such a thing as Apostolic sacramental Christianity.

940
00:44:58,199 --> 00:45:01,039
The Roman Catholic Church has wrote on this in two

941
00:45:01,079 --> 00:45:03,679
thousand and four and in the nineties as well. We

942
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,119
acknowledge that you can call the Orthodox Church's churches with

943
00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:10,519
a capital. See, they have bishops, they go back to apostles,

944
00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:14,480
they have seven sacraments represented acknowledged by the Church.

945
00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:15,679
Speaker 4: They're valid sacraments.

946
00:45:16,559 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 5: You wouldn't belicit for a Catholic to receive there or

947
00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:23,159
vice versa. But there is a shared ecclesiology. What people

948
00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:27,480
don't understand and need to about Protestantism. Anglican Catholics are

949
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,239
slightly different. They're an exception to the rule. But of

950
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,400
all the sects of Protestantism, they don't share any ecclesiology

951
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,079
with us. So they'll say, oh, this is a dogma.

952
00:45:37,199 --> 00:45:39,360
What's a dogma? This isn't something that traces back to

953
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,960
the acta Apostolic ascetis. It's not something that the bishop's

954
00:45:43,079 --> 00:45:45,159
always and everywhere taught together as a church.

955
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,519
Speaker 4: So we have to just say this.

956
00:45:47,519 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 5: It's not to be exclusive, but Protestantism is a lay

957
00:45:52,159 --> 00:45:55,920
bastardization of the religion. You guys believe in a Trinitarian

958
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,400
you have a Trinitarian baptism, baptism in the name of

959
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,480
the Father Son, Holy Spirit. So so it is technically Christian.

960
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:07,039
But except beyond that and baptism even in Roman Catholicism

961
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:08,960
can be done by a layman, which is what makes

962
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:14,440
it valid. But other than that, Protestantism is an abstract idea.

963
00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:17,840
I like the idea, I like this book that the Roman.

964
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 4: So it's you think we're talking about Protestantism that is

965
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:24,039
a big tense.

966
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 3: You're part of that that domain.

967
00:46:26,079 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 4: Yes, but the Anglican Protestantism is very different from the

968
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:30,840
Lutheran Protestism, which is very different from the reform projects.

969
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 3: Was my original point, right, there's not actually any clear

970
00:46:33,559 --> 00:46:35,320
unity there. It's all over the place.

971
00:46:35,519 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 4: No Protestant is going to tell you that there is

972
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:38,760
Protestant unity.

973
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:39,599
Speaker 6: Thank you.

974
00:46:39,639 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 4: They're going to tell you protism. No, no, it doesn't.

975
00:46:43,519 --> 00:46:46,159
Speaker 5: Council and I see you guys must be one holy

976
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,039
Catholic and apostology that does those four marks has a

977
00:46:49,159 --> 00:46:50,280
very specific.

978
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,519
Speaker 4: Doesn't mean that we have to be in communion with

979
00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:52,239
one another.

980
00:46:52,039 --> 00:46:54,159
Speaker 3: Obviously, it means you have to have those marks.

981
00:46:56,159 --> 00:46:59,199
Speaker 4: We have bishops, we have the sacraments, we have the history.

982
00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 6: It's bishop td takes a bishop. He claims to be one.

983
00:47:01,599 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 4: I don't know who TD Jakes is.

984
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 6: Woman the black.

985
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 3: He's the black modalist preacher who says he's Bishop td Jakes.

986
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 4: The bishop doesn't sound like he is.

987
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,519
Speaker 6: Okay, but you're a bishop.

988
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,079
Speaker 4: Your church has My church has bishops because they can

989
00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:20,639
trace their ordination back to August.

990
00:47:21,079 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 1: The seventh time the question has been asked and he's

991
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:23,840
answered the exact same thing.

992
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 3: Because he's but he's not understanding that you're not.

993
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 1: Going to get you.

994
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,599
Speaker 4: Guys aren't asking a question that makes sense. Why why

995
00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:31,039
do you have ordinations? Because we do?

996
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay.

997
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 2: So I think there's an interesting view between the three

998
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,280
of you and what a superior denomination would be. And

999
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,519
it's largely about what you think to be true to

1000
00:47:42,599 --> 00:47:46,599
the religion as opposed to what the religion does and

1001
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,039
what it's its adherents do.

1002
00:47:48,679 --> 00:47:50,519
Speaker 1: I I And that's fine.

1003
00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: I'm not saying I don't want to diminish that, because

1004
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,280
obviously that's extremely important to know that, to know the

1005
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,320
truth and and and you know the history of things.

1006
00:47:56,599 --> 00:47:59,199
But from my perspective, I take a look at the

1007
00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:01,400
adherence to the really and what they're doing and whether

1008
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,559
they can actually follow what they're being told to do,

1009
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:08,239
and it largely feels like they mostly don't. I mean again,

1010
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:09,960
like if I was going to go off with the

1011
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,400
sheer numbers, I'm more convinced to be Homish than anything

1012
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,000
right right, anything else right now.

1013
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,639
Speaker 5: The problem is Gandhi. Gandhi said the same thing. He said,

1014
00:48:17,639 --> 00:48:19,519
if I ever met a perfect Christian, I would go

1015
00:48:19,559 --> 00:48:22,960
be You don't. There's some validity to the proposition by

1016
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,880
a lord and that you judge a tree by.

1017
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 2: I got my point is this? So I looked up

1018
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:32,159
the fastest growing denominations. The Independent Network of Charismatic Christianity

1019
00:48:32,199 --> 00:48:37,400
is the largest growth, apparently, followed by Pentecostal churches. Good God,

1020
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:43,280
Pentecostals have like between three to five percent growth.

1021
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,639
Speaker 4: You understand the inverse proportionalism at work there though. It's

1022
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,480
that they're small, so they can grow really really fat.

1023
00:48:49,519 --> 00:48:51,360
If the town's got one hundred people and it gets

1024
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,159
two new people, it just increased its population by two percent.

1025
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,599
Catholic also Pentecostals. It's terrifying.

1026
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 3: Also the the way the debate is framed, which is

1027
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,000
not bad, but superior begs the question of like what standard,

1028
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,320
Like what do you what's the metric for judging?

1029
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:09,119
Speaker 6: What makes it suppear?

1030
00:49:09,199 --> 00:49:12,199
Speaker 4: I would argue the superior, like, the superior religion is

1031
00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:14,440
the one that brings the most people to salvation.

1032
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, but maybe what's maybe truth is first and

1033
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,199
foremost I think for most of us or all of

1034
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,920
us here. Yeah, that because we assume that the true

1035
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,679
religion will bear the fruits that go along with what's

1036
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:31,159
true first and foremost. So just having numbers isn't necessarily

1037
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,679
an indicator of the true religion, because you can have

1038
00:49:33,679 --> 00:49:36,119
a lot of people who convert to a false religion

1039
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,199
or who think that they're converting and it's really just

1040
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,480
like Santarea or something like that by South America. That's

1041
00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:43,599
not authentic, right.

1042
00:49:43,519 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: So to be fair, I want to make sure of

1043
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:45,360
the numbers, right.

1044
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,079
Speaker 2: I just I just looked up Catholic to make the

1045
00:49:48,119 --> 00:49:51,280
point about inverse three point nine million people in twenty

1046
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,320
twenty three became Catholic, whereas Pentecosta was fifty nine fifty

1047
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,440
six thousand. So yeah, it's correct, And I'll look up

1048
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,800
the other sex as well, because likely the same thing

1049
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,239
for for Orthodox they're much larger, so the percentage wise

1050
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,119
is going to be smaller. But I guess my ultimate

1051
00:50:07,159 --> 00:50:11,800
concern is the initial point of the question of superior

1052
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:13,679
religion is I think, as you put, who brings people

1053
00:50:13,679 --> 00:50:16,400
to salvation? Obviously the truth of the religion is going

1054
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,599
to matter, because, like you said, if they're practicing Santa Ria.

1055
00:50:18,599 --> 00:50:19,679
Speaker 1: Then they're not going anywhere.

1056
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 2: But there's also the fact that, I mean, largely among

1057
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,440
all of your sex people are not having kids at all,

1058
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,440
or I should say they're having kids, but they're having

1059
00:50:27,519 --> 00:50:33,599
not enough, so you can keep converting, but eventually there's

1060
00:50:33,639 --> 00:50:34,079
no people.

1061
00:50:34,079 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: I mean, where where does this ultimately go?

1062
00:50:35,679 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 5: Fair metric in some political sense, but it's also soteriologically

1063
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,559
who goes to heaven or not. It's a bit of

1064
00:50:43,559 --> 00:50:46,880
a crass metric. We don't we should be having lots

1065
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,039
of kids. And obviously Roman Catholicism is marked as the

1066
00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:57,000
only solidified version of Christianity on earth that stayed against

1067
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,039
contraception after the Anglican l Ambeth Conferences of nineteen ten,

1068
00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:05,039
nineteen twenty, nineteen thirty, where all the other sects of

1069
00:51:05,119 --> 00:51:09,360
Christianity capitulated. But it's true, and it's fair enough for

1070
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,880
people to say, particularly after Vatican two and the liberalizing

1071
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:18,199
trends popular trends among Catholics, almost as many Catholics contracept

1072
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,239
as Protestants or Orthodox.

1073
00:51:20,679 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 4: This isn't quite true.

1074
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,639
Speaker 5: If you go to a Tredentian Latin Mass, you're going

1075
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:25,280
to see big, big, big families.

1076
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 4: But which Day pointed out, But I do.

1077
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 5: Think that everyone should, each of the three of us

1078
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,519
here should have a segment to state.

1079
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,119
Speaker 4: But you know, some sort of answer to.

1080
00:51:37,079 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 5: The posit if that's cool, Like, what what's your case

1081
00:51:41,039 --> 00:51:45,320
for why you are the best version of Christianity, best

1082
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:45,920
major side.

1083
00:51:46,159 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 4: I don't hold a position that we are. We just

1084
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:54,360
hold a position that you're not. That's incredibly weak and weak.

1085
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,159
Speaker 1: We have a lot of Mennonites around here and the Rock.

1086
00:51:58,280 --> 00:51:58,880
They're awesome.

1087
00:51:59,159 --> 00:52:03,039
Speaker 2: They have animals, They sell food. It's always like real food,

1088
00:52:03,079 --> 00:52:07,000
no chemicals, no garbage. They got big families and these

1089
00:52:07,519 --> 00:52:09,760
I looked it up that the main the moderate Mennonite state.

1090
00:52:10,079 --> 00:52:12,199
There's a shop not too far away twenty minutes we

1091
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:13,440
used to go to all the time. They got ice

1092
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,199
cream and cheeses and it's all this really great stuff.

1093
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 1: I love it. That seems pretty cool, you know, so

1094
00:52:19,519 --> 00:52:20,960
if I was trying to figure.

1095
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 6: Out which one.

1096
00:52:21,559 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, well my point is largely.

1097
00:52:23,079 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 2: Like looking at the world today and the state of things,

1098
00:52:28,519 --> 00:52:31,639
they make a pretty good argument. You know, don't eat garbage,

1099
00:52:31,679 --> 00:52:34,159
be with your family, honor like they tend to honor

1100
00:52:34,199 --> 00:52:36,519
their families, their communities, their parents, They go to church.

1101
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:38,760
They maintain this. They have lots lots of kids. Yeah,

1102
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,599
I know they're small, it's only a few million.

1103
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 3: Well, can I address that, because there's two points. It

1104
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,519
actually addressed the point I was trying to make to

1105
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:47,320
you earlier. So, like, if you go back to the

1106
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,199
early Church, there was a group called the Arians, and

1107
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:52,519
the Arians believed that Jesus was a creature. But the

1108
00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:56,079
Arans were also very into morality and pushing morals, so

1109
00:52:56,119 --> 00:52:59,519
they were at least outwardly speaking moral kind of like

1110
00:52:59,559 --> 00:53:03,840
Jose this as you could say. But Arians had apostolic succession,

1111
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,280
but they lost the church and the faith even though

1112
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,760
they had the mechanical succession. Likewise, Christianity can't be identified

1113
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,079
as hutter rights or amish because historical. It's a historic religion,

1114
00:53:16,519 --> 00:53:19,840
so it has to be tied to the historic succession

1115
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,599
not just of the bishops, but the apostles that Jesus

1116
00:53:23,639 --> 00:53:26,519
appointed in the Gospel to hand down that authority and

1117
00:53:26,639 --> 00:53:29,760
that rulership of the church. So when you look at

1118
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,760
the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh centuries, you

1119
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,400
don't see anything like anglic Catholicism. You don't see anything

1120
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,400
like hutter rights or Amish. You see people coming together

1121
00:53:38,519 --> 00:53:42,239
having councils with bishops, with the eucharists, with monastics, with

1122
00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:46,639
you know, the episcopacy, with you relics with all the

1123
00:53:46,639 --> 00:53:51,519
things that characterize Catholic Christianity and Orthodox identify as.

1124
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 2: To be fair, though, I would argue that in those

1125
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,159
time periods, people were more likely to live in practice

1126
00:53:57,199 --> 00:53:58,360
and worship as the Hutter rights.

1127
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:02,199
Speaker 3: Do you know the church which is liturgical worship that

1128
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,920
you see with icons and incense is literally out of

1129
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,360
the Old Testament worship with that you mentioned earlier, like

1130
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,880
the levitical laws. The church adopted all of those, many

1131
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,960
of those ceremonial things like having the you know, the

1132
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,840
priests decked out the way he is with having an altar. Nope,

1133
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,599
like typically speaking, Baptists don't believe in an altar for

1134
00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:27,199
the purpose of the Eucharistic offering, right, so Baptists believe

1135
00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:30,840
in it being a purely symbolic remembrance ceremony. But the

1136
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,920
early Church is doing the liturgy. They're doing the Mass

1137
00:54:36,079 --> 00:54:40,119
or the you know, the divine Liturgy from the earliest days.

1138
00:54:40,159 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 4: Everything he just described as what early Church Catholics did

1139
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,239
applies to Okay, it doesn't. I don't think he knows

1140
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:48,440
what Anglican Catholicism is.

1141
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 3: You didn't know the basics of Anglican ecclesiology.

1142
00:54:51,039 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 4: I'm not aware of a non dogmatic a.

1143
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:55,760
Speaker 6: Very well known thing. You're not.

1144
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,119
Speaker 3: It's your common doctrine of ecclesiology.

1145
00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:00,079
Speaker 6: You didn't know it. You're not gonna lecture me on Anglican.

1146
00:55:00,039 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 4: Also, don't. We also don't hold to the thirty nine

1147
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:03,800
articles as dogmatic.

1148
00:55:03,599 --> 00:55:04,599
Speaker 6: Because there's not dogma.

1149
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 7: As we showed a minute ago, the marks of the

1150
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,079
marks of natural religion qua religion are are really important

1151
00:55:11,079 --> 00:55:14,400
here and they do set off a kind of rift

1152
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,000
where the Protestants are alone.

1153
00:55:17,039 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 4: They're they're a voice crying in the wilderness, and we

1154
00:55:19,079 --> 00:55:20,840
have to acknowledge them. That's what I tried to acknowledge

1155
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,519
at the very beginning, the basic marks of religion. Even

1156
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,519
the Pagan Greeks had some of these. You would say

1157
00:55:26,519 --> 00:55:30,800
Buddhism doesn't, Protestantism doesn't, but even some of the Polytheists

1158
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,719
religions do. They have things like smells and bells. Having

1159
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,199
an altar is something from even pagan Greek religion. But

1160
00:55:38,199 --> 00:55:42,280
but for for incremental Jews. The Jews, Jews had them right.

1161
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 5: Sacramentals sacrifice, blood, blood sacrifice, which really from Judaism to

1162
00:55:48,079 --> 00:55:53,039
Christianity became sacrament precepts, the you know, daily things you

1163
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:55,679
have to do. What are the five precepts of Catholicism,

1164
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,440
assasserdotal order.

1165
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 4: Or ritual or what we call what we call liturgy.

1166
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,119
Speaker 5: These are things that are lacking in Protestantism. I'm not

1167
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:09,199
saying this to be rude or exclusive, but when you're

1168
00:56:09,199 --> 00:56:12,400
dealing with what I actually say makes the Roman Catholic

1169
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:16,519
faith the superior form of Christianity is at the first

1170
00:56:16,599 --> 00:56:20,039
ecumenical council ever, which was Nicia, where we defined the

1171
00:56:20,039 --> 00:56:24,639
most important stuff about the Trinity. There were four marks

1172
00:56:24,679 --> 00:56:27,800
of the Church laid out that Christ promised us the

1173
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:29,960
Church would never defect. It would be this way until

1174
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,480
the end of time. It would be one. So there

1175
00:56:32,519 --> 00:56:36,280
can't be competing sex. There can be arguments within one sect,

1176
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,800
but there can't be actual different competing sex. Wholly this

1177
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:47,639
means sacraments Catholic, this means worldwide, and of course apostolic.

1178
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:49,519
This means that there has to be a direct line

1179
00:56:49,639 --> 00:56:51,880
of every bishop in the world. Back to one of

1180
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:56,239
the apostles, we would say, with all due respect, Protestantism

1181
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,199
by and large lacks all four. Now we do not

1182
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,719
make the same. The Church doesn't make the same claim

1183
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:06,679
about Orthodox Christianity. They have real bishops that the Church acknowledges,

1184
00:57:07,039 --> 00:57:09,440
and that means that they have all seven sacraments. Seven

1185
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,440
This means complete. So there's a different conversation that needs

1186
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,960
to happen between Catholics. You heard it because we're talking

1187
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,880
about the first seven Councils versus a kind of quasi

1188
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:20,920
religious products.

1189
00:57:21,119 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 4: Once again, we acknowledge and hold the First seven Councils,

1190
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:24,440
but you don't.

1191
00:57:24,519 --> 00:57:27,519
Speaker 3: As I showed from the Seventh Documenical Council, you fundamentally

1192
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:29,679
reject the thing that that council was about.

1193
00:57:29,719 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 6: You said, it's audiopera.

1194
00:57:31,239 --> 00:57:33,519
Speaker 3: They say you're excommunicated if you don't accept images, So

1195
00:57:33,559 --> 00:57:34,760
you don't accept the seventh.

1196
00:57:36,199 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 6: In theory and name.

1197
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: What are you?

1198
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 6: That was what you said.

1199
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,559
Speaker 4: If I said that we if we.

1200
00:57:43,599 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 6: Have dogma, you don't know that these terms, I.

1201
00:57:47,239 --> 00:57:50,199
Speaker 4: Said, okay, No, if I said that we don't agree

1202
00:57:50,239 --> 00:57:52,599
with the Seventh Council, then I misspoke because.

1203
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:53,599
Speaker 6: Of no, you said that.

1204
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,519
Speaker 3: I asked you if it was dogma meaning you're excommunicated

1205
00:57:56,519 --> 00:57:58,039
if you don't believe in images, and you said no,

1206
00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:00,159
we don't believe that, then you don't believe this the

1207
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:01,159
council because it does that.

1208
00:58:02,079 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 6: It's a simple point.

1209
00:58:03,079 --> 00:58:06,679
Speaker 4: Because we don't excommunicate people for not as you don't

1210
00:58:06,719 --> 00:58:11,039
have ecclesiologyesiology. But listen, I was gonna bring I want

1211
00:58:11,039 --> 00:58:11,639
to bring in another.

1212
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: We got another denomination.

1213
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 2: Who's got some words for you, Warpeg with a super

1214
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,960
test saying Baptists don't pray to middlemen and call them saints,

1215
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,519
and we don't pay for our salvation by giving Rome

1216
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:24,719
our coin. Long live American Independent Baptists.

1217
00:58:25,079 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 4: What say, y'all, that's got to be a joke, Rock, Yeah,

1218
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:30,039
that's so.

1219
00:58:30,079 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 3: In First Timothy, for Paul says to Timothy, be good, Timothy,

1220
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,599
because you will save those around you. Okay, does that

1221
00:58:37,679 --> 00:58:41,199
mean that Paul thinks Timothy is the Savior. No, Timothy

1222
00:58:41,239 --> 00:58:45,480
is participating in by cooperating with God, helping and being

1223
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,920
a conduit of grace to those around him in the

1224
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:51,599
same way Mary and other Saints are not God. They're

1225
00:58:51,679 --> 00:58:54,679
conduits that pray for us and help us, exactly the

1226
00:58:54,719 --> 00:58:55,840
way Paul's talking to Timothy.

1227
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 5: If you've ever asked your your buddy to pray for you,

1228
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,760
I'm going through something that's that's the Saints thing is

1229
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,679
absolutely retarded. Uh when when Protestants spurg out about this,

1230
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,440
it's it's literally asking the saints in heaven to pray

1231
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:07,719
for us.

1232
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 4: They're they're closer to God.

1233
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,239
Speaker 5: It's the church triumphant rather than the people that if

1234
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:13,119
I ask you to pray for.

1235
00:59:13,079 --> 00:59:15,599
Speaker 4: Me, you're still a church militant. It's it's a closer

1236
00:59:15,599 --> 00:59:18,119
prayer to get I'm just still confused on why icons

1237
00:59:18,119 --> 00:59:18,559
are any show.

1238
00:59:18,599 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 2: Okay, but I don't want to because let let's just

1239
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,800
let's just we have icons, have icons.

1240
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 4: We have icons. If a church did not, If a

1241
00:59:26,559 --> 00:59:29,840
church you're missing the icons, you not be recognized as

1242
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:30,239
a church.

1243
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 2: We we've, we've we I don't want to go in

1244
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:33,199
circles on that over and over and over again with

1245
00:59:33,199 --> 00:59:34,079
everyone saying the same thing.

1246
00:59:34,199 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: So I have a question. I got a question. Do

1247
00:59:36,599 --> 00:59:39,599
each of you think you will meet each other in

1248
00:59:39,639 --> 00:59:40,800
heaven or no? Yes?

1249
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:42,159
Speaker 4: My church does.

1250
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:44,559
Speaker 3: Well. I guess it's true if you think that, right,

1251
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,000
If it's more liberal, does that I get true?

1252
00:59:47,119 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 4: It's not liberal. We are.

1253
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 6: It's a liberal position.

1254
00:59:50,639 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 4: It's not liberal liberal and a different saying you're a trinitarian,

1255
00:59:56,039 --> 00:59:57,039
you're a trinitarian.

1256
00:59:57,159 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 3: I'm a truticized sacraments audio.

1257
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 4: My apostolic succession goes back just as far as yours

1258
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:03,480
and yours.

1259
01:00:04,159 --> 01:00:05,599
Speaker 6: All you've done is a start your position.

1260
01:00:05,679 --> 01:00:09,119
Speaker 4: So question just haven't rejected, You haven't actually rejected.

1261
01:00:09,199 --> 01:00:09,519
Speaker 1: I'm gonna.

1262
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 6: I've already showed you twice.

1263
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 1: We go, we gotta. I'm kidding, don't actually you you

1264
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,239
have You have said, you have said that.

1265
01:00:15,199 --> 01:00:16,679
Speaker 6: You even't understand the arguments I'm making.

1266
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: TikTok.

1267
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 4: Your argument seems to be and you restate the argument.

1268
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:24,039
Your argument seems to be that if somebody doesn't have

1269
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:25,280
icons in their house.

1270
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, no I didn't. That is so dumb.

1271
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,199
Speaker 4: That is you're not iconically.

1272
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: Do you think these two gentlemen will meet you in heaven.

1273
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,559
Speaker 3: We don't make personal judgments on people's destinies. All we

1274
01:00:36,639 --> 01:00:39,039
know is that we believe that the Orthodox Church is

1275
01:00:39,039 --> 01:00:41,199
the arc. It is the mystical body of Christ, and

1276
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,400
so it's our duty to tell people to join it.

1277
01:00:43,519 --> 01:00:45,880
We can't say what God will judge at the end

1278
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:47,639
of time and at the grade, So let's.

1279
01:00:47,519 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: Put it this way.

1280
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 2: Outside of them individually, you think it is, it is

1281
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,360
less likely that people who don't follow your religion will

1282
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:54,360
will find their way less likely.

1283
01:00:54,559 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: And then and then how do you guys view it?

1284
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 5: Catholics highly similar, almost identical view. We do believe you

1285
01:01:00,519 --> 01:01:04,320
have to be in communion with Rome, but there are

1286
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,280
exceptions like baptism by desire.

1287
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 1: Does everyone agree that the Holy Land belongs to Rome?

1288
01:01:11,079 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 4: Rome depends on how you define Rome.

1289
01:01:13,679 --> 01:01:16,119
Speaker 3: I think parts of the Holy Land along to Orthodox

1290
01:01:16,199 --> 01:01:19,519
Orthodox ord Our Church is the third largest landowner in Israel,

1291
01:01:19,719 --> 01:01:23,480
so technic Jerusalem patriarch, it would probably be the best claim.

1292
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: In fact, I was half kidding. It was a joke

1293
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,199
from Seamus when over the Israel Palestine debate.

1294
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 4: Ye belongs to Christians.

1295
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:32,679
Speaker 3: I mean there was at one time in the Middle

1296
01:01:32,719 --> 01:01:35,000
Ages it was a Byzantine it was it was part

1297
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,039
of the Business Empire, so it was at one point

1298
01:01:37,039 --> 01:01:38,880
a Christian colony, so to speak.

1299
01:01:40,719 --> 01:01:43,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is there's a chat here. I'm gonna read

1300
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:46,079
that's that's I guess somewhat insulting to me.

1301
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,679
Speaker 2: This h Bros Says this was always the problem with

1302
01:01:50,719 --> 01:01:53,440
Tim hosting the debate. You know what's going to turn

1303
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,519
into something something he brings up with no epistemic foundation.

1304
01:01:59,159 --> 01:02:02,480
Uh my view, it's kind of like, yeah, probably because

1305
01:02:02,519 --> 01:02:06,480
I don't follow any of these religions or or I

1306
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,320
do believe in God. I guess theist is probably the

1307
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:10,519
best word, not deist.

1308
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:11,679
Speaker 1: But if.

1309
01:02:13,119 --> 01:02:16,039
Speaker 2: If I can't be convinced, if you can't convince, you know,

1310
01:02:16,199 --> 01:02:18,039
if you find somebody you're like, yeah, they believe in God,

1311
01:02:18,079 --> 01:02:22,079
it's like, okay, here's why we're correct. If it's esoteric

1312
01:02:22,159 --> 01:02:24,920
and hard to understand and you can't easily explain why

1313
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,599
your religion is correct to someone like me, and how

1314
01:02:28,599 --> 01:02:29,400
do you convert people?

1315
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:31,639
Speaker 3: But a Muslim that's a Muslim market. Muslims will say

1316
01:02:31,679 --> 01:02:34,280
our religion is true because it's simpler. But then when

1317
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,599
you get into the religion, you realize, oh, actually there's

1318
01:02:36,599 --> 01:02:38,360
a million hadiths that you got to learn, and it's

1319
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:39,079
really complex.

1320
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,519
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm saying, how do you convince someone who

1321
01:02:41,559 --> 01:02:45,000
doesn't know about the ecumenical councils and all of that stuff.

1322
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,280
So I hear I hear a lot of very esoteric

1323
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,000
terms that I'm like, unam sanctum.

1324
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 1: I don't know what that is.

1325
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 5: But Jays, I'm not trying to be evangelical right now,

1326
01:02:55,519 --> 01:02:57,719
Jay is not. None of us really are trying to

1327
01:02:57,719 --> 01:03:00,280
be evangelical, because when you bring everyone into a room,

1328
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:02,679
the Catholic and the Orthodox are going to be debating

1329
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,599
counsels and and specifically what the constitutions require. So it

1330
01:03:06,639 --> 01:03:09,800
sounds boring and stupid, but but it's actually important the

1331
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:12,639
way anyone would evangelize, I guess, since you do have

1332
01:03:12,679 --> 01:03:18,559
a more secular audiences by saying Christianity is demonstrably true,

1333
01:03:19,239 --> 01:03:23,239
I was demonstrably suey generous, it's under but I'll pause on.

1334
01:03:23,199 --> 01:03:25,679
Speaker 2: Saying I think it's probably like eighty five percent Christian

1335
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:27,639
of different denominations that watch.

1336
01:03:28,239 --> 01:03:29,719
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, well fair enough.

1337
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 5: But then you havestually you have to ask which which

1338
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:35,480
version of Christianity? To the eighty five percent that are

1339
01:03:35,519 --> 01:03:38,719
already convinced correctly that Christianity is true, you have to say,

1340
01:03:38,719 --> 01:03:43,119
which of the competing sex Orthodoxy is. We would say

1341
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,960
a much much, much much closer have the foremarks of

1342
01:03:47,039 --> 01:03:50,360
the church and and can trace there the practice of

1343
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,920
the religion today all the way back to our Lord

1344
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,320
handing the keys to Blessed Peter. That's that's what we

1345
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,360
would say, if we're kind of putting it in broad

1346
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:00,800
forward facing terms. And then that's precisely way I.

1347
01:04:00,719 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: See with with recently with the new pope.

1348
01:04:07,039 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 2: He's from Chicago and a lot of Chicago jokes. But

1349
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:14,239
there was another cardinal who had made comments about supporting

1350
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:15,559
the LGBTQ community.

1351
01:04:16,039 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 1: I forgot.

1352
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 2: He was the guy from the Philippines, and there was

1353
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:25,480
big concern over his views on overtly political cultural political issues.

1354
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:27,679
And to me, I look at that, I'm like, how

1355
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:32,360
how could there be truth in an ever evolving political

1356
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,599
climate that tries to adhere to politics.

1357
01:04:35,079 --> 01:04:37,119
Speaker 4: Well, that's the biggest problem with Catholic Church historically is

1358
01:04:37,159 --> 01:04:39,719
it's very intertwined with politics, always has been.

1359
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 2: My personally, my opinion is that the Catholic Church is

1360
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,199
trying to maintain as large a base as possible, and

1361
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:50,320
so you end up with people like Francis and I

1362
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:52,719
forgot the name of this guy, this Filipino guy who

1363
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:56,239
said something like all these gay websites, I mean literally

1364
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,920
gay websites, not insulting them, we're.

1365
01:04:58,639 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 6: Pregnant vat.

1366
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,519
Speaker 1: Oh no, there's like pink News.

1367
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,159
Speaker 2: I think it was in like LGBT Nation or whatever.

1368
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,480
We're saying like, this is the good guy, he should

1369
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:10,920
be the pope because he was saying things like it's

1370
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,880
time to recognize gay marriage or whatever, or like things

1371
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,000
like that, going beyond what Francis had said with blessings.

1372
01:05:16,159 --> 01:05:19,599
Speaker 5: The Vaticanistas all said that this is what between him

1373
01:05:19,639 --> 01:05:23,239
and the Cardinal of Bologna and some of the other

1374
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:27,119
far left cardinals that were considered papabularly popable at the

1375
01:05:27,199 --> 01:05:32,320
last conclave last month. This is specifically why they weren't selected,

1376
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,400
even though they're considered most to pabaly, because we tried

1377
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,519
this with Francis, and it's true. It's I would never

1378
01:05:38,559 --> 01:05:40,719
deny as probably one of one of France's is the

1379
01:05:40,719 --> 01:05:45,079
best known American lay critics who is Catholic. Uh, the

1380
01:05:45,159 --> 01:05:52,639
church is trying a bad approach to winning over converts.

1381
01:05:51,679 --> 01:05:53,639
Speaker 4: Since a little bit. It's like we're a Vatican too.

1382
01:05:53,679 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 5: And what they're actually finding now and the boomers and

1383
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,519
the dinosaurs in the cardinal it are finding to their chagrin,

1384
01:06:00,159 --> 01:06:02,039
is that they're they're really mad about it. France has

1385
01:06:02,079 --> 01:06:04,719
hated it. He said, these people have psychological problems. They

1386
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:06,760
like to go to the Latin mass, they like to

1387
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:08,840
go back to the mass of the ages too.

1388
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 2: That's this is what I see in the trends as well,

1389
01:06:11,159 --> 01:06:13,840
that we're finding that gen Z, younger gen Z, not

1390
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,320
older gen Z, are finding faith in Jesus Christ.

1391
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,039
Speaker 1: That that's that That polling was not a nomination all.

1392
01:06:19,079 --> 01:06:21,559
Speaker 2: It was just they were saying it the men are

1393
01:06:21,599 --> 01:06:25,320
leaning more conservative, and then, uh, you know, I suppose

1394
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,199
it's a it's a it's a factor, and that Catholicism

1395
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,960
is so big and when the pope, you know, when

1396
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:31,760
the pope passed away and they were choosing the new pope,

1397
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:33,480
it's the biggest story in the world, so I can

1398
01:06:33,559 --> 01:06:36,599
understand it. It just feels like they're lying to people

1399
01:06:36,639 --> 01:06:38,320
to try and build up membership numbers.

1400
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 1: That's what it feels like.

1401
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:42,679
Speaker 4: When to get into the lies of the Roman Catholic Church,

1402
01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:47,440
this is not this is not some time that his

1403
01:06:47,559 --> 01:06:51,320
church told the world that Constantine gave them the entire

1404
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:52,199
Western Empire.

1405
01:06:52,239 --> 01:06:55,159
Speaker 1: To be clarify, I'm not saying this of Catholics.

1406
01:06:55,239 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 2: I'm saying that that the current leadership seemed to be

1407
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,480
their political strategy of we need more converts, so let's

1408
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:02,480
say what we have to say.

1409
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,599
Speaker 4: Again, and my church is doing the opposite thing. We

1410
01:07:04,679 --> 01:07:07,000
separated from the larger church because we felt that they

1411
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:07,519
were doing that.

1412
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 6: Again, separating makes you not a part of that thing.

1413
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 1: Sure was.

1414
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 6: So the the point that I raised earlier about the papers.

1415
01:07:19,519 --> 01:07:21,639
Speaker 3: Let's let's move on, Papa, we didn't separate.

1416
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:23,159
Speaker 6: We believe they left us.

1417
01:07:23,519 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 4: And we believe they left us.

1418
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,079
Speaker 3: That's why I did an internal critique WHI you don't understand,

1419
01:07:27,159 --> 01:07:27,719
But no.

1420
01:07:27,719 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 4: You didn't make your was veiled in esotery. We don't

1421
01:07:31,239 --> 01:07:32,920
say communicate, I.

1422
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 6: Guess language the basically make your point on.

1423
01:07:36,559 --> 01:07:39,719
Speaker 3: So the the issue with when I'm sonctum all the

1424
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,199
way up to the Syllabus of Errors in the eighteen hundreds,

1425
01:07:42,199 --> 01:07:44,360
where you had to believe in the temporal power and

1426
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:47,440
supremacy the Roman bishop to be saved. It was mandated

1427
01:07:47,519 --> 01:07:50,440
all that time for those centuries to be necessary to

1428
01:07:50,519 --> 01:07:55,360
be saved, which the Vatican no longer believes for salvafic purposes.

1429
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,960
They might theoretically still believe it, who knows, but I

1430
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:03,079
think Vatican too contradicts that with the de Christianizing principles.

1431
01:08:03,119 --> 01:08:05,639
But the point is that ever since the Papal states,

1432
01:08:05,679 --> 01:08:08,920
ever since the eleventh century, especially with the Gregorian reforms,

1433
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:12,199
the papacy has united itself with and tied itself into

1434
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,519
politics at a.

1435
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 6: At an intense level.

1436
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,520
Speaker 3: And that's not all totally the fault of Rome or

1437
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:20,800
just power seeking. You had the collapse of the Roman Empire,

1438
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:22,960
which led to the vacuum that allowed.

1439
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 6: The papacy to step in.

1440
01:08:24,239 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 3: But by the time that we get to Dictatus Pope,

1441
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:28,880
just a couple of things that we have in this document.

1442
01:08:29,319 --> 01:08:32,840
The pope alone can use the imperial signa insignia. All

1443
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:34,880
princes in the world must kiss the Pope's feet. This

1444
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:36,760
is the only name in the world. He alone may

1445
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,640
depose all emperors. He alone may confirm all bishops. The

1446
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,039
Roman Sea has never aired and will never air unto

1447
01:08:43,159 --> 01:08:45,159
the end of time. The Roman Church is founded by

1448
01:08:45,159 --> 01:08:48,359
God alone. The Roman Church alone can call itself universal.

1449
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:51,640
It can alone depose the renstate bishops. Now already we've

1450
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,720
seen that from Dictatus popping the eleventh century. That's a

1451
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,039
contradiction with the way the councils acted and operated in

1452
01:08:58,079 --> 01:09:00,960
the first several centuries. So the Roman bishop becomes a

1453
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:05,399
geopolitical world power, particularly in the eleventh century, comes to

1454
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:09,159
its nader you could say, a few centuries later, and

1455
01:09:09,239 --> 01:09:13,039
it is still intimately tied up with geopolitics, because the

1456
01:09:13,039 --> 01:09:17,000
CIA had a huge alliance with the Vatican during the

1457
01:09:17,039 --> 01:09:19,640
Cold War, and at Vatican two on record and many

1458
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:20,560
many Catholic right.

1459
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:22,600
Speaker 1: What explained Vatican two.

1460
01:09:23,239 --> 01:09:25,119
Speaker 3: So this is the council in the nineteen sixties that

1461
01:09:25,239 --> 01:09:28,479
was called by John the twenty third, originally to update

1462
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,680
to make the Roman See and the Roman Church more

1463
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:35,279
amenable to the world. Ajornamento was his terminology, to open

1464
01:09:35,319 --> 01:09:38,039
the doors and let the world into the Church.

1465
01:09:39,079 --> 01:09:41,159
Speaker 1: You would you agree with that assessmentor no?

1466
01:09:41,159 --> 01:09:43,319
Speaker 5: No, So Vatican two was I mean, it's true that

1467
01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:45,600
it was all. It's true that it was called by

1468
01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:47,600
John the twenty third. But what happened at the end

1469
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:51,880
of Vatican One in the eighteen seventies is the frank

1470
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:56,880
Opression War interrupted it. Vatican one is famous. If we

1471
01:09:56,920 --> 01:09:58,560
look at both of the last two councils of the

1472
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,960
Roman Catholic Church, Vatican one of two, they're both vastly misunderstood.

1473
01:10:02,159 --> 01:10:04,800
The reason Vatican one is vastly misunderstood is because the

1474
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:09,520
Franco Prussian War interrupted it. Literally in between the two

1475
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,560
goals of Vatican one laying out the power of the Pope,

1476
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:14,680
clarifying the power of the pope as it had always

1477
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,039
been for two thousand years, eighteen hundred years, and laying

1478
01:10:18,039 --> 01:10:20,119
out the power of the bishops because it is a

1479
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,840
collegial relationship that the Pope has to them, even though

1480
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:27,720
he is the prince of the apostles. It got interrupted

1481
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:31,439
and separated by the Franco Prussian War, so Vatican two,

1482
01:10:32,159 --> 01:10:35,439
so it ended up looking by the way like just

1483
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,800
the pope's powers were laid out. The powers of the

1484
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:41,600
bishops were never at umbrated because of the sudden conclusion

1485
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:44,840
of that. It was never actually concluded until John the

1486
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:49,000
twenty third concluded it almost one hundred years later, eighty

1487
01:10:49,039 --> 01:10:52,119
five years later, right before he said, okay, we need

1488
01:10:52,119 --> 01:10:54,319
to have a Vatican two. Yet to what the power

1489
01:10:54,319 --> 01:10:57,319
of the bishops are was Vatican one? Vatican one laid

1490
01:10:57,319 --> 01:10:59,239
out definitively what the power.

1491
01:10:59,039 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: Of it was like a meeting.

1492
01:11:00,159 --> 01:11:03,399
Speaker 4: Was all of these ecumenical count council, which means that

1493
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:05,560
it was a full council of the Church called dinamper

1494
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:09,399
not in amor no, no, it was.

1495
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:11,640
Speaker 5: The first seven were called by emperors, some more were

1496
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:15,159
called by Emper's Council of Florence. Was but an ecumenical

1497
01:11:15,319 --> 01:11:17,720
just means that Ecumenical Council just.

1498
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,159
Speaker 4: Means that it's all the world, all the bishops of

1499
01:11:20,199 --> 01:11:20,840
the world.

1500
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:25,159
Speaker 5: Vatican one concludes, suddenly getting just to what the power

1501
01:11:25,199 --> 01:11:27,079
of the pope is, which made it gave it a

1502
01:11:27,119 --> 01:11:31,399
lopsided look our ecclesiology. Afterwards, Vatican Two needed to be

1503
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,680
held to get to what the power of the bishops

1504
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:38,079
were once we started getting more liberal popes like John

1505
01:11:38,119 --> 01:11:40,159
the twenty third and Paul the sixth, who are the

1506
01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:42,800
two popes alive during Vatican Two in the nineteen sixties,

1507
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,920
they changed the agenda. Actually it was Carl Ronner and

1508
01:11:47,199 --> 01:11:50,359
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, who a lot of people think was

1509
01:11:50,399 --> 01:11:51,479
a right winger in the church.

1510
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:55,079
Speaker 4: He was not. He and Ronner together changed the agenda

1511
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:58,479
from finishing what Vatican one was supposed to do lay

1512
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:02,319
out the power of the bishops, to what he called

1513
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:07,560
a jornamento updating the Church doing doing essentially liberal things. Now,

1514
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:11,359
the documents themselves are are not are not bad. The

1515
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:16,039
documents themselves are insinuitive. Yeah, I read some of the documentary. Yeah,

1516
01:12:16,079 --> 01:12:16,640
once I get done.

1517
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:22,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, the documents themselves are insinuitive of a more liberal position,

1518
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:25,279
and they were intentionally written in such a way that

1519
01:12:25,319 --> 01:12:27,680
they would be that they could be weaponized.

1520
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 4: Later.

1521
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:33,039
Speaker 5: Lots of the Council fathers that were Rhnoites admitted this,

1522
01:12:34,079 --> 01:12:37,239
things like, you know, what's our relationship to be with

1523
01:12:37,319 --> 01:12:40,600
the Muslims? Jay Jay made reference to this earlier, what's

1524
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:42,319
our relationship to be with the Hindus?

1525
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 4: And it sounded more liberal.

1526
01:12:44,279 --> 01:12:46,600
Speaker 5: Really, what they were doing was quoting things from Pope

1527
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,720
Pious the tenth, a very based older pope. They're quoting

1528
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:54,039
even from medieval popes who acknowledged things like, technically speaking,

1529
01:12:55,119 --> 01:12:59,239
the Muslims are monotheists. Technically they're one of the Western religions.

1530
01:12:59,239 --> 01:13:02,319
Technically they they worship the one True God, but they

1531
01:13:02,319 --> 01:13:04,159
worship the one True God in the false way.

1532
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 4: Trads, you know, rad Trad's orthodox.

1533
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 5: Everyone gets worked up about this, but it turns out

1534
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,199
that this is a very very old medieval term that

1535
01:13:12,239 --> 01:13:12,880
the Church has.

1536
01:13:13,039 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 3: The same for Hinduism, because the Vatican too says the

1537
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:19,760
same as they they believe. They believe not about Hindus, Hindus,

1538
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:20,840
not moss Hindus.

1539
01:13:21,159 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 4: Okay, read what it says about Hinduss.

1540
01:13:23,199 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 3: In Hinduism, people explore the divine mystery and explore and

1541
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:27,680
express it.

1542
01:13:28,079 --> 01:13:30,640
Speaker 6: How do you explore the true mystery of God?

1543
01:13:31,319 --> 01:13:35,159
Speaker 3: You can explore what you're looking for, explore Christianity.

1544
01:13:35,199 --> 01:13:37,079
Speaker 4: It's absolutely don't explore.

1545
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:38,039
Speaker 6: Christianity and Hinduism.

1546
01:13:38,079 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 3: They seek release from the trials of present life through

1547
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:45,079
ascetic practices and meditation and recourse to God in confidence.

1548
01:13:45,119 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 5: I agree, all that's bad, but you miss so it's

1549
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:51,079
bad my uncle Remus. Wait wait, my uncle Remus believes

1550
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:52,800
dogs like your uncle can fly.

1551
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:55,079
Speaker 3: No, this is your dogmatic statements that are supposed to

1552
01:13:55,279 --> 01:13:58,840
provide clarity. Right, they need to be interpreted by you

1553
01:13:58,840 --> 01:13:59,680
because are ambiguous.

1554
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 4: No, No, are they clear or ambiguous? Perfectly clear? They're Hindu?

1555
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:05,520
Speaker 6: Will you just said it was bad? It was bad? Wait?

1556
01:14:06,279 --> 01:14:07,239
Was it clear or bad?

1557
01:14:07,319 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 4: You finished?

1558
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:08,119
Speaker 6: Jail?

1559
01:14:08,159 --> 01:14:09,159
Speaker 4: I'll go after you're done.

1560
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:10,800
Speaker 6: They have recourse to God.

1561
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:13,520
Speaker 3: God will do the same thing. So just again that

1562
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,800
we have said of colection irrelevant. What that's a direct object,

1563
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:19,880
that's a genetic facis object genetic fallacy to say that

1564
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,560
because it is you just said, I don't know, so

1565
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:28,520
appealed authority, appealed authority and genetic fallacy. Other fallacy. They

1566
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:32,880
believe you're King of fallacy record say they believe you're lying?

1567
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:34,800
You added that explode? Where does it say they do that?

1568
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:35,159
Speaker 4: Read?

1569
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 3: It says that they seek release, and they have recourse

1570
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:41,880
to God in confidence and the seek they have recourse, No,

1571
01:14:42,039 --> 01:14:44,720
and have recourse. They seek and have recourse?

1572
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 4: Okay?

1573
01:14:45,439 --> 01:14:48,760
Speaker 3: And what he say and recourse and recourse?

1574
01:14:49,279 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

1575
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,359
Speaker 6: Recourse they have? They seek in.

1576
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:57,279
Speaker 4: They cantafidence and love in God. I'll speak once he's done.

1577
01:14:57,359 --> 01:14:59,439
So what in the Amatican two documents.

1578
01:14:59,159 --> 01:15:00,680
Speaker 3: That I was very hones By the way, it's a

1579
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:02,079
genetic fallacy.

1580
01:15:02,079 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 1: Can I see the book?

1581
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:03,119
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1582
01:15:03,279 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, read the sentence here, let me read it again

1583
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:11,560
for you. In the relations is going to keep it.

1584
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:14,880
Speaker 3: In the religion of Hinduism, people explore the divine mystery,

1585
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:16,359
explore thank you.

1586
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:17,119
Speaker 6: I just said that.

1587
01:15:17,199 --> 01:15:19,119
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean they found to repeat each word after

1588
01:15:19,119 --> 01:15:19,720
I say each.

1589
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:22,319
Speaker 4: What have you said? Ascertained? If they said ascertained, we'd

1590
01:15:22,319 --> 01:15:22,960
have a hard time.

1591
01:15:23,079 --> 01:15:24,319
Speaker 3: So he doesn't want me to read the whole quote

1592
01:15:24,319 --> 01:15:28,319
because he knows the the difference.

1593
01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:30,560
Speaker 4: In Hindu God, it is very real.

1594
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:33,600
Speaker 3: They have recourse to God in confidence and love.

1595
01:15:35,399 --> 01:15:40,640
Speaker 5: They start the sentence over, they seek Jay thinks that

1596
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:45,600
the sentence said that the Hindu's ascertained, heaven ascertained.

1597
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:49,039
Speaker 3: It says that through exploring it. But you said it

1598
01:15:49,079 --> 01:15:50,159
was a bad statement earlier.

1599
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:52,279
Speaker 5: No, no, no, I said, no, no, it's not that's

1600
01:15:52,279 --> 01:15:56,600
from read the document. I'm saying that it's very easy

1601
01:15:56,600 --> 01:16:00,359
to misinterpret if I say, mine, my dear old uncle remus.

1602
01:16:00,159 --> 01:16:03,279
Speaker 3: Why why do we need you to interpret the document?

1603
01:16:03,319 --> 01:16:04,960
You're saying, why do we need you to interpret the

1604
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:09,880
doctas you to interpret the doc the logic professor keeps

1605
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:10,560
making fallacies.

1606
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:12,439
Speaker 4: Let me read what I thought.

1607
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:14,079
Speaker 6: Why do you need to interpret them?

1608
01:16:14,199 --> 01:16:14,800
Speaker 4: Let me read it.

1609
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:17,439
Speaker 2: There's a paragraph before that one I want to read.

1610
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:19,119
I want to I just want to read the full paragraph.

1611
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:22,279
Or actually this is part of the full paragraph. It says,

1612
01:16:22,279 --> 01:16:24,439
throughout history to the present day, there is found among

1613
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:27,359
different peoples a certain awareness of a hidden power which

1614
01:16:27,399 --> 01:16:29,560
lies behind the course of nature and the events of

1615
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,760
human life. At times, there is present even a recognition

1616
01:16:33,199 --> 01:16:35,920
of a supreme being, or still more of a father.

1617
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:38,880
This awareness and recognition results in a way of life

1618
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:41,920
that is imbued with a deep religious sense. The religions

1619
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,960
which are found in more advanced civilizations endeavor by way

1620
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:48,800
of well defined concepts and exact language to answer these questions.

1621
01:16:49,239 --> 01:16:51,680
Speaker 1: Thus, in Hinduism, people.

1622
01:16:51,439 --> 01:16:54,079
Speaker 2: Explore the divine mystery and express it both in the

1623
01:16:54,079 --> 01:16:58,439
limitless riches of myth and the accurately defined insights of philosophy.

1624
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:01,279
They seek release from the trials of the present life

1625
01:17:01,279 --> 01:17:05,720
by ascetical practices, profound meditation, and recourse to God in

1626
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:09,840
confidence and love. Buddhism, in its various forms, testing costs

1627
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:12,760
to God to the essential inadequacy of this changing world.

1628
01:17:13,079 --> 01:17:15,119
It proposes a way of life by which people can,

1629
01:17:15,199 --> 01:17:18,279
with confidence and trust, attain a state of perfect liberation

1630
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,600
and reach supreme elimination, either through their own efforts or

1631
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,720
with divine help. So to other religions which are found

1632
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:27,680
throughout the world, attempt in different ways to overcome the

1633
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:31,439
restlessness of people's hearts by outlining a program of life

1634
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:34,600
covering doctrine, moral precepts, and sacred rights.

1635
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is our perfect liberation in hindu and.

1636
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:39,520
Speaker 1: Real quick, I do want to read this little bit.

1637
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:41,239
I didn't want to read the one paragphy. There's a

1638
01:17:41,239 --> 01:17:42,199
little bit more that I think is interesting.

1639
01:17:42,239 --> 01:17:43,159
Speaker 6: You already said it's bad.

1640
01:17:43,239 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 1: It goes on.

1641
01:17:49,279 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 3: Again another fallacy at hominem fallacies.

1642
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:56,119
Speaker 1: It actually says here we have im mute, but immediately.

1643
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,199
Speaker 3: Follow because he's calling out, I'm calling out the logic professor.

1644
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:01,640
Speaker 2: I just want to point out that by and okay, sorry, sorry,

1645
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:04,920
but immediately following this parer, what says the Catholic Church

1646
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:08,079
rejects nothing of what is true and wholly.

1647
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:08,800
Speaker 1: In these religions.

1648
01:18:09,159 --> 01:18:11,119
Speaker 2: It is a high regard for the manner of life

1649
01:18:11,159 --> 01:18:15,000
and conduct conduct, the precepts and doctrines, which, although differing

1650
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:17,760
in many ways from its own teaching, nevertheless often reflect

1651
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:20,920
array of that truth which enlightens all men and women.

1652
01:18:21,359 --> 01:18:24,239
Yet it proclaims it is in duty bound to proclaim

1653
01:18:24,239 --> 01:18:26,640
without fail Christ, who is the way the truth in

1654
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:30,039
life in Him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself.

1655
01:18:30,399 --> 01:18:32,399
People find the fullness of their religious life.

1656
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:34,600
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1657
01:18:35,319 --> 01:18:37,560
Speaker 3: That shows contradiction. No, that doesn't help you.

1658
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:40,399
Speaker 1: I actually agree with with the Catholic view.

1659
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 2: It's basically saying the way I interpret that, it's saying

1660
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:46,319
Hindus and Buddhists are looking through a keyhole and seeing

1661
01:18:46,319 --> 01:18:49,760
these fragments that they're not quite understanding properly and if

1662
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:52,000
they were to adhere to Jesus Christ and find the way.

1663
01:18:52,039 --> 01:18:57,159
Speaker 3: The problem, the even liberals at the Council, problem is

1664
01:18:57,199 --> 01:19:00,359
that only written by John fourteen, Jesus says that He's

1665
01:19:00,399 --> 01:19:03,279
the only way right, the truth in the life. But

1666
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:05,560
I understand that the problem is that you cannot. It

1667
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:09,479
says in the religions of Hinduism and Buddhism, men find

1668
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:12,079
love in God and they find they seek lo the

1669
01:19:12,319 --> 01:19:14,760
know it says they find it. They believe they fine

1670
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:17,520
phrase says seek it. Then it says they find it.

1671
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 6: Just like I said.

1672
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 3: Read it again, just like it says Muslims adore the

1673
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:24,920
one God. Well, well, Muslims are different because the religion, No,

1674
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:25,239
they're not.

1675
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,239
Speaker 6: Do they believe religion? You believe?

1676
01:19:27,279 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 3: Do they believe in one God or multiple? They believe

1677
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:33,800
in monos the Bible teach. Does the Bible teach the

1678
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:37,800
Trinity or Monotheism the Trinity? But so the Muslims don't

1679
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:38,600
believe in the God of the Bible.

1680
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 6: You know that?

1681
01:19:39,079 --> 01:19:41,680
Speaker 4: Do you know what the sense reference dichotomy?

1682
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:42,079
Speaker 3: That?

1683
01:19:42,119 --> 01:19:43,239
Speaker 1: Okay, I have a question.

1684
01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:46,239
Speaker 5: So if you understand what sense referenced dichotomy, okay, we

1685
01:19:46,279 --> 01:19:47,920
can be referring to the thing.

1686
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 4: Does Jesus describe it as yellow?

1687
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:53,239
Speaker 5: And we're still reserting to say that the Pharisees misunderstanding

1688
01:19:53,279 --> 01:19:54,079
this reference.

1689
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:58,439
Speaker 3: Does Jesus think that the Pharisees accurately worship the Father?

1690
01:19:59,239 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 4: No, of course not.

1691
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:04,239
Speaker 5: Then then that undoes your argument, un does your Muslim

1692
01:20:04,319 --> 01:20:07,159
lane Because you said you understand the sense reference dichotomy.

1693
01:20:07,359 --> 01:20:11,600
Explain how by sense ans risk affirmative and by reference

1694
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:13,960
it would be a negative answer. We can be referring

1695
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,600
to the same thing. If you think Cleveland doesn't and

1696
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:16,960
I think.

1697
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 3: They disprove your sense reference argument, and we're not that

1698
01:20:19,039 --> 01:20:20,800
you want to just prove your sense the question, I

1699
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:25,159
can disprove it by Muslims sense reference. Do Mormons believe

1700
01:20:25,199 --> 01:20:29,159
in Jesus? No, but Mormons don't believe. Do they use

1701
01:20:29,199 --> 01:20:30,079
the term Jesus?

1702
01:20:30,159 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 4: No, yes, they're not use the terms absolutely, Mormons use

1703
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:37,880
the term Wait, wait, wait, norm.

1704
01:20:39,199 --> 01:20:42,159
Speaker 5: Mormons believe Jesus is I'm the one guy that hasn't

1705
01:20:42,199 --> 01:20:45,960
been interrupting. So Mormons believes that there is a historical Jesus.

1706
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,159
He believes that he that that Mormons Jesus is not

1707
01:20:49,239 --> 01:20:49,960
the son of gods.

1708
01:20:50,159 --> 01:20:52,039
Speaker 6: I know what they believe religion.

1709
01:20:52,199 --> 01:20:54,560
Speaker 3: So just like Muslims, if they say I believe in

1710
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:56,840
the One God, it's the quantifier shift fallacy.

1711
01:20:57,279 --> 01:20:59,600
Speaker 5: No, that's just the quantity that's true. But that's what

1712
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:02,760
the document is. The quantifier shift fallacy. Then that undoes

1713
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:03,479
what what does that mean?

1714
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:04,000
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

1715
01:21:04,039 --> 01:21:06,039
Speaker 3: So it's like if I say I have one mother,

1716
01:21:06,159 --> 01:21:08,640
you have one mother. We all have one mother, therefore

1717
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:11,359
we come from the same mother. It's a quantifying shift fallacy.

1718
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:14,520
So one God, what we all believe in, one God,

1719
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:17,199
Therefore it's the same God. Vatican two is using the

1720
01:21:17,279 --> 01:21:18,279
quantifier shift fallacy.

1721
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:20,119
Speaker 4: Read the line.

1722
01:21:20,359 --> 01:21:23,359
Speaker 5: Read the line that you think is false definitively, because

1723
01:21:23,359 --> 01:21:25,560
there are no definitive statements you've read that are false.

1724
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:32,119
Speaker 4: Notice that seeking, searching, exploring need. It was just retarded.

1725
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:32,920
Speaker 6: Just retard.

1726
01:21:33,039 --> 01:21:34,800
Speaker 3: The quarts shift fallacy is retarded, I think.

1727
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:38,439
Speaker 4: Okay, guys, guys, no claim that there's something false you

1728
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:39,520
just read. It is retarded.

1729
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:40,520
Speaker 1: Okay, let me, let me.

1730
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,680
Speaker 3: Let's written by liberals. I gave you that it's written

1731
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:45,960
by liberals. But it's supposed to clarify. So the paper

1732
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:49,199
does the job of clarifying. But it's written by liberals,

1733
01:21:49,199 --> 01:21:51,000
and we need him to interpret it for you don't

1734
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,199
need me to interpret anything. I'm defending against an attack

1735
01:21:54,279 --> 01:21:57,439
that you're making. That's that's common miscar.

1736
01:21:57,399 --> 01:21:59,680
Speaker 6: One true God, living and subsisting in himself.

1737
01:22:01,079 --> 01:22:07,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, yea fallas with two bargaining dogs.

1738
01:22:07,359 --> 01:22:11,319
Speaker 5: Every time Muslims claimed how about this, Muslims claim to

1739
01:22:11,359 --> 01:22:12,000
believe in one.

1740
01:22:12,079 --> 01:22:14,279
Speaker 6: It doesn't say it says they adore. It doesn't say

1741
01:22:14,279 --> 01:22:14,640
they claim.

1742
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:19,680
Speaker 5: Muslims the words now they adore the sense reference dichotomy.

1743
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:23,359
Speaker 2: Right, okay, wait, wait, wait, hold on, I want to

1744
01:22:23,399 --> 01:22:24,520
read this.

1745
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:25,239
Speaker 1: This is important.

1746
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:28,119
Speaker 2: It's as the Church also has a high regard for

1747
01:22:28,199 --> 01:22:32,840
the Muslims. They worship God, who is one living and

1748
01:22:34,439 --> 01:22:38,359
I'm not I said, I'm not done, the creator of

1749
01:22:38,359 --> 01:22:40,840
having an earth, who was also spoken to humanity. They

1750
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:43,359
endeavor to submit themselves without reserve, to the hidden decrees

1751
01:22:43,399 --> 01:22:45,439
of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plans

1752
01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:48,960
and whose faith Muslims eagerly linked to their own, although

1753
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:53,119
not acknowledging him as God. They venerate Jesus, a prophet,

1754
01:22:53,439 --> 01:22:55,760
his virgin mother. They also honor and even at times

1755
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:58,119
devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and

1756
01:22:58,159 --> 01:23:01,079
the reward of the reward of God following the resurrection

1757
01:23:01,199 --> 01:23:04,199
of the dead. For this reason, they highly esteem and

1758
01:23:04,439 --> 01:23:07,880
upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer.

1759
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:09,880
Speaker 1: Alms, deeds, and fasting. It.

1760
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 2: It does seem like they're saying, as far as I

1761
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:15,439
can tell, Muslims are worshiping the same God.

1762
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:18,239
Speaker 3: Yes, well, yes, this is This is a community college

1763
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:20,359
primer on intro to religions and.

1764
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:22,199
Speaker 6: How you couldn't get quantified ship.

1765
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:25,640
Speaker 5: It's in your Islam is literally one of the three

1766
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:27,359
monotheisms in Western religion.

1767
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:30,119
Speaker 4: Is it trying? No, It's not the God of the Bible.

1768
01:23:30,199 --> 01:23:33,520
Speaker 5: According to you, I said, the Bible God is the Trinity. No, yes,

1769
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:35,279
you did. Well, of course you don't think. I think

1770
01:23:35,319 --> 01:23:36,600
the Bible God is the Trinity.

1771
01:23:36,640 --> 01:23:38,880
Speaker 3: Then the Muslims don't worship the same God because of

1772
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:40,079
the quantifier shift fallacy.

1773
01:23:40,079 --> 01:23:42,520
Speaker 4: The Muslims don't worship the same God. Doesn't say the

1774
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:43,800
same God as US books says.

1775
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:45,279
Speaker 3: They do, thank you, thank you.

1776
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:48,439
Speaker 4: They don't worship the same.

1777
01:23:48,239 --> 01:23:50,760
Speaker 6: God, Muslim, Are you serious?

1778
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 4: What's going on? Heresion?

1779
01:23:53,039 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 3: They worship God who is living and subsisting in the

1780
01:23:56,039 --> 01:23:58,319
same marciful Almighty Creator.

1781
01:23:58,399 --> 01:24:02,319
Speaker 4: No, you said the same God as USU US. It

1782
01:24:02,359 --> 01:24:03,079
doesn't say us.

1783
01:24:03,319 --> 01:24:05,359
Speaker 6: Also, it doesn't say us. Are you serious, dude?

1784
01:24:05,399 --> 01:24:08,640
Speaker 4: Muslims worship how many? How many gods do Muslims worship?

1785
01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:12,239
Say jay dire? How many gods do Muslims worship?

1786
01:24:12,279 --> 01:24:12,600
Speaker 6: Worship?

1787
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 4: How many do they worship?

1788
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:16,520
Speaker 3: By the way, one or two or three? I don't

1789
01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:19,680
believe in generic monotheism. That's a that's a word that.

1790
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:20,640
Speaker 1: It's the distinction.

1791
01:24:21,119 --> 01:24:22,479
Speaker 4: I also don't agree.

1792
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:25,119
Speaker 3: I believe it's the quantifiership fallacy.

1793
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,640
Speaker 4: One thing you tell me you don't believe that they

1794
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:29,920
believe they worship one.

1795
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:32,279
Speaker 5: God doesn't matter because the statement is that you said

1796
01:24:32,279 --> 01:24:35,920
you understood the sense right the god worship. They do

1797
01:24:36,039 --> 01:24:38,920
worship one true God, tim But what you're equippling over

1798
01:24:39,079 --> 01:24:41,560
failing is whether or not you're melting the verb and

1799
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:44,640
the direct object there are in agreement. You don't need

1800
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:47,039
a grammar lesson literally, you do need a grammar less

1801
01:24:48,359 --> 01:24:49,000
logic professor.

1802
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:50,439
Speaker 6: You couldn't do the quantifiership fellaws.

1803
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:53,600
Speaker 4: This guy doesn't know that Islam claims to worship one.

1804
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:55,880
It doesn't say they just claim it. It says they do it.

1805
01:24:55,920 --> 01:24:59,439
Says they worship God, not they the Church, the Roman

1806
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:02,039
Catholic Church, which has always acknowledged this is the Romance,

1807
01:25:02,359 --> 01:25:06,079
but since the tenth since two different medieval popes that

1808
01:25:06,239 --> 01:25:10,199
Muslims want to worship some in some sense the same God,

1809
01:25:10,399 --> 01:25:15,840
different reference. Grammatically, grammatically, this is very straightforward. They worship God,

1810
01:25:16,039 --> 01:25:18,560
not a God. They worship God and even the One

1811
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:23,000
True God. The Church, they worship God, who is one,

1812
01:25:23,199 --> 01:25:24,199
living and subsistence.

1813
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:25,079
Speaker 5: I'm not.

1814
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:29,039
Speaker 4: Orthodox. I'm just saying what the Church is always taught.

1815
01:25:29,159 --> 01:25:32,520
That is the That is them saying, couldn't worship our God?

1816
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:36,479
Speaker 6: Have you address the argument? Then argument would.

1817
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,439
Speaker 4: Said on Islam, Tim you would be right to God arguments.

1818
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:43,119
Speaker 5: What I can read you from the personal piet Advice

1819
01:25:43,199 --> 01:25:53,039
the Ten Catechism that he says the One True God.

1820
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:52,680
Speaker 1: Doesn't represent okay, guys, guys.

1821
01:25:53,159 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 4: And it doesn't represent okay. Where it doesn't represent.

1822
01:25:56,039 --> 01:26:00,680
Speaker 1: Okay, guys, guys. The conversation is not advancing, and one

1823
01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:05,600
questions years it's I think it's actually been pretty pretty

1824
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:06,039
pretty good.

1825
01:26:06,079 --> 01:26:09,800
Speaker 2: Actually, what what I interpret from that is that they

1826
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:13,119
were trying to say there is one true God, and

1827
01:26:13,159 --> 01:26:16,560
even in that regard, they're saying other religions are seeing

1828
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:19,479
it improperly and doing it wrong, like looking like the

1829
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:21,359
argument is you look through a key hole.

1830
01:26:22,399 --> 01:26:23,399
Speaker 1: I think that's what it's saying.

1831
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 2: It's saying that Muslims are looking through a hole and

1832
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:28,720
they're seeing something tiny and they're not doing it right.

1833
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:30,359
Speaker 1: Hindus are looking through a different hole.

1834
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:33,079
Speaker 2: So I I think the argument of the of the

1835
01:26:33,319 --> 01:26:35,960
of Vetiicanto is there is only one true God.

1836
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:37,279
Speaker 1: Everyone else is looking at it wrong.

1837
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 4: Written by Jesuits liberal, So now their church created the

1838
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:45,199
Jesuits bad again, that was on that So from the

1839
01:26:45,279 --> 01:26:50,399
orthodox person, yes, the Jesuits are from the flesh. From

1840
01:26:50,399 --> 01:26:53,600
the complained about them and said they're too liberal. Yes,

1841
01:26:53,760 --> 01:26:57,640
that's that's a well known Catholic. Catholics can Catholics can

1842
01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:00,880
be too liberal and it's prodience Episcopal the Yeah, they

1843
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:02,800
have an ecclesiology. Stay we also have.

1844
01:27:04,319 --> 01:27:05,159
Speaker 1: I got a question.

1845
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:11,079
Speaker 4: Trendsliberal. It doesn't mean that they're Protestants. Well, you also

1846
01:27:11,119 --> 01:27:12,800
expelled them because they were liberals.

1847
01:27:13,239 --> 01:27:15,319
Speaker 2: It's the one thing that an agree on is that

1848
01:27:15,359 --> 01:27:17,439
the Episcopal Church is the inferior church.

1849
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:18,680
Speaker 4: The Episcopal Church sucks.

1850
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:20,239
Speaker 1: Do you all agree?

1851
01:27:20,279 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 6: Yeah? Yeah, for sure.

1852
01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 3: Sure, so I want to I want to highlight too

1853
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:25,920
that I think Tim will have to admit this that

1854
01:27:26,079 --> 01:27:28,920
post Vatican Two, we can see the actions of the Papa,

1855
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:32,119
see how they interpret this document, because they in many

1856
01:27:32,199 --> 01:27:35,760
cases literally will go pray in mosque towards Mecca. The

1857
01:27:36,279 --> 01:27:39,319
sixteenth did it. Also, John Paul the second did it. Uh,

1858
01:27:39,359 --> 01:27:42,840
excuse me? A saint and Francis both did this where

1859
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:45,960
they went to the moss. They reverently prayed towards Mecca.

1860
01:27:46,279 --> 01:27:49,520
That's an outward expression of the interior disposition in Roman

1861
01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:51,319
Catholic moral theology of their faith.

1862
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:54,239
Speaker 4: The way that they're not dogmatic.

1863
01:27:54,399 --> 01:27:56,039
Speaker 6: That's Vatican is not dogmatic.

1864
01:27:56,239 --> 01:27:58,960
Speaker 5: No, No, Vatican two is dogmatic. The Pope's going in

1865
01:27:59,079 --> 01:28:03,000
and praise stupid expresses. It expresses their faith.

1866
01:28:03,039 --> 01:28:04,560
Speaker 4: That's of Constantinople.

1867
01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:06,159
Speaker 3: I think I think he's heretic. I don't have a

1868
01:28:06,159 --> 01:28:08,000
problem saying his heretic. Okay, but you can't say that.

1869
01:28:08,079 --> 01:28:09,359
You can't say the pope's a heretic.

1870
01:28:10,119 --> 01:28:13,000
Speaker 5: Uh, Francis Francis was a material heretic. We don't know

1871
01:28:13,079 --> 01:28:14,239
yet if he's a formal.

1872
01:28:14,039 --> 01:28:17,159
Speaker 3: No one judges the first sea, do you.

1873
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 4: No one has judged the first Sea. Yet who cares

1874
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:19,840
you're judging it now?

1875
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:24,640
Speaker 3: Cardinals in seven fifty says that lady does not have

1876
01:28:24,680 --> 01:28:26,680
the right to judge the bishops and the sea.

1877
01:28:26,720 --> 01:28:27,319
Speaker 4: Not judging him.

1878
01:28:27,359 --> 01:28:28,159
Speaker 6: That means you just said.

1879
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:31,800
Speaker 4: A material heretics a formal judging.

1880
01:28:32,039 --> 01:28:32,680
Speaker 6: I know what it means.

1881
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:35,159
Speaker 3: Of course you don't have authority, but it also means

1882
01:28:35,159 --> 01:28:36,439
that you don't have It says that you have to

1883
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:38,479
submit with docility to the to the rulings of the

1884
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:39,199
ordinary teaching.

1885
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:40,800
Speaker 4: Of course that's not it.

1886
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:43,800
Speaker 3: You don't get to action, then you don't get in

1887
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:48,159
conformity with the liberal view, with the liberal misinterpretation.

1888
01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:49,760
Speaker 4: You can't just talk over it.

1889
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:54,119
Speaker 5: Did the council judgement the intentional liberal misinterpretation of those

1890
01:28:54,119 --> 01:28:58,000
passages you read which I'm interpret Wait wait, tim interpreted

1891
01:28:58,039 --> 01:29:02,239
correctly so he can by popes and and I'll admiss.

1892
01:29:02,319 --> 01:29:05,920
Speaker 2: I'll just say this, Uh, that which I read is

1893
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:07,680
more convincing to me.

1894
01:29:08,119 --> 01:29:09,159
Speaker 1: Of the Catholics.

1895
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:12,199
Speaker 4: Well, I would agree, if not for the fact that

1896
01:29:12,239 --> 01:29:15,000
it says Muslims worship the same God. It doesn't say

1897
01:29:15,079 --> 01:29:22,479
same God. Yes, the word saying literally the one God.

1898
01:29:23,079 --> 01:29:25,840
It does rammatically making up who's the creator?

1899
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 6: To wait, who's the creator?

1900
01:29:27,239 --> 01:29:30,359
Speaker 4: Does it say same? The creator says they worship God.

1901
01:29:31,039 --> 01:29:34,640
People out there this passage is the creator.

1902
01:29:34,199 --> 01:29:36,960
Speaker 2: The microphone if no one else, if people keep talking, Uh,

1903
01:29:37,079 --> 01:29:37,880
I think it's correct.

1904
01:29:38,239 --> 01:29:40,720
Speaker 1: Okay, but I think I think Muslims do worship God.

1905
01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:41,199
Speaker 4: They don't.

1906
01:29:41,319 --> 01:29:42,399
Speaker 6: They don't, but our God.

1907
01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:45,159
Speaker 2: So he already admitted and so that says capital G God.

1908
01:29:45,239 --> 01:29:46,720
That's why this is convincing to me. And you guys

1909
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:47,439
aren't being convincing.

1910
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:51,199
Speaker 4: Again God, if it said a God, I agree with you,

1911
01:29:51,239 --> 01:29:53,359
but it's because I I think believe there's a God

1912
01:29:53,399 --> 01:29:53,960
besides God.

1913
01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:54,479
Speaker 1: I think there is.

1914
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:57,479
Speaker 5: That's the sense reference dichotomy right there. So you believe

1915
01:29:57,520 --> 01:29:59,880
there's another god besides God. So the popes pray in

1916
01:30:00,359 --> 01:30:03,000
You just said you believe they worship You're what I

1917
01:30:03,039 --> 01:30:04,119
said God?

1918
01:30:04,319 --> 01:30:07,279
Speaker 4: I said. If if it said they worship a god,

1919
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:11,199
as is important, they believe they're worshiping a God who

1920
01:30:11,239 --> 01:30:11,760
is similar.

1921
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:14,359
Speaker 5: No, no, no, not, they believe they really do. Remember that's them.

1922
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:16,000
Wait wait, wait is an argument?

1923
01:30:16,119 --> 01:30:16,239
Speaker 1: Now?

1924
01:30:16,359 --> 01:30:16,960
Speaker 4: Your text?

1925
01:30:17,119 --> 01:30:17,880
Speaker 6: It's your text?

1926
01:30:18,119 --> 01:30:18,319
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1927
01:30:18,359 --> 01:30:20,119
Speaker 5: You literally, I know it's I know it's my text.

1928
01:30:20,119 --> 01:30:22,680
You literally what would make all the difference is if

1929
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:25,479
they said that the Muslims worship a God rather than

1930
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:28,720
a God. You're making reference to the sense reference ecotomy

1931
01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:30,159
by saying a no.

1932
01:30:30,359 --> 01:30:31,640
Speaker 6: That's why you can answer.

1933
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:36,640
Speaker 4: You're not understanding what I said, or you're not understanding

1934
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:40,079
I'm not deliberately misrepresenting anything I'm saying, and you don't

1935
01:30:40,119 --> 01:30:40,960
understand what I said.

1936
01:30:41,039 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 5: This sense reference dichotomy literally covers whether God or.

1937
01:30:46,319 --> 01:30:48,000
Speaker 4: Sense referenced dichotomy. This is grammar.

1938
01:30:48,359 --> 01:30:49,640
Speaker 1: Do you know what it is? Yes?

1939
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:53,279
Speaker 3: Okay, guys, this is grammar. It's a grammatical tandation. Tim

1940
01:30:53,359 --> 01:30:54,520
understands it's the same God.

1941
01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 2: He okay, he is not not say it does worship

1942
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:00,920
God appital g God.

1943
01:31:00,920 --> 01:31:03,520
Speaker 5: I'm going to quote my friend Jay Dyer who says

1944
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:06,960
that this passage says same God, not one God.

1945
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:07,640
Speaker 4: Who's the creator?

1946
01:31:07,640 --> 01:31:10,119
Speaker 3: Tim, same God would be Tim, who's the creator.

1947
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:12,239
Speaker 4: The same God would be inxical.

1948
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:14,560
Speaker 3: So why are you being dishonesed? You're being dishonest?

1949
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:20,880
Speaker 4: Tim, literally, come on, man, come the thea he can't answer,

1950
01:31:21,039 --> 01:31:23,079
I understand, understand the philosophy and.

1951
01:31:23,239 --> 01:31:26,239
Speaker 3: Melting down and coping because he can't answer create at all.

1952
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:30,640
Speaker 4: You made heretic twenty minutes ago, and I agree with Muslims.

1953
01:31:30,119 --> 01:31:33,159
Speaker 5: Worship the same God as us would be buying. Indexical

1954
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:36,880
means that it says if he used the word same.

1955
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 6: It would you want the attributes.

1956
01:31:38,039 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 4: It would be heresy.

1957
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:41,399
Speaker 5: And that's why I said it wasn't natural theology. But

1958
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:43,880
it says that they worship one God, then it would

1959
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:46,199
be correct. It says they do worship one God.

1960
01:31:46,279 --> 01:31:51,159
Speaker 3: They worship God who is one, living and subsisting in himself, merciful,

1961
01:31:51,239 --> 01:31:52,760
arm Almarighty and the Creator.

1962
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 4: Sure I'm breaking the Muslim view. I don't know. Again,

1963
01:31:56,840 --> 01:31:59,239
you know what if he said just a God, they'd

1964
01:31:59,239 --> 01:32:00,800
beading the Muslim viea.

1965
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:04,960
Speaker 3: But they say lumin Gentium sixteen says they adore the

1966
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:08,399
one God. That's a term of worship, the one God.

1967
01:32:08,479 --> 01:32:11,199
They adore the one God, and said this in his

1968
01:32:11,279 --> 01:32:12,520
personal catechism.

1969
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:14,359
Speaker 4: And too medieval.

1970
01:32:15,560 --> 01:32:17,680
Speaker 5: You could take issue with the Roman Catholic position. As

1971
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:19,680
an Orthodox, that's what you should do, but you can't

1972
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:23,039
say Church has change them. The document that's contradicting is

1973
01:32:23,079 --> 01:32:23,520
the argument.

1974
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:24,520
Speaker 6: We don't care about.

1975
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:27,920
Speaker 5: The document doesn't contradict Catholicism. It might contradict Jay Dyer

1976
01:32:28,199 --> 01:32:29,399
or no the.

1977
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:31,520
Speaker 6: Document itself contradicts what you said earlier.

1978
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:35,760
Speaker 4: Does Catholicism hold that Islam is the same as Christianity?

1979
01:32:36,039 --> 01:32:38,000
Do you know what a precept is? What a logical

1980
01:32:38,039 --> 01:32:38,640
axiom is.

1981
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:43,239
Speaker 5: Logical axioms are pre scriptural, so literally the sense referenced

1982
01:32:43,279 --> 01:32:46,680
dichotomy or the concept of proportional cause.

1983
01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:48,479
Speaker 4: These are things which are which.

1984
01:32:48,399 --> 01:32:54,600
Speaker 3: Pre so sophiety to explain something you don't understand. No,

1985
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:57,359
you didn't know that. You didn't understand this. Five fallacies

1986
01:32:57,359 --> 01:32:59,880
in a row. You said the same. That would be

1987
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:05,000
they text, because that's what the argument of the text is.

1988
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,079
They adore the one God in Lumit genty of sixteen.

1989
01:33:08,159 --> 01:33:11,399
Speaker 4: In order argument to be cool, they have to not

1990
01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:12,239
be a proper Now.

1991
01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:16,439
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to We're gonna have to want everybody

1992
01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:17,159
know they don't.

1993
01:33:17,279 --> 01:33:19,359
Speaker 2: I believe that is a is a PI that testing

1994
01:33:19,399 --> 01:33:25,199
it is he muting everybody. I don't, okay, I don't

1995
01:33:25,239 --> 01:33:28,039
know what y'all are arguing at this point.

1996
01:33:28,319 --> 01:33:31,119
Speaker 1: I just I just hear noise is here yelling.

1997
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:35,199
Speaker 2: Well the moment, the moment anyone talks someone else, everyone

1998
01:33:35,199 --> 01:33:37,720
else's talking. And then when I was asking a question,

1999
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:39,840
you guys started having a different debate at the same

2000
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:40,399
that's fair.

2001
01:33:41,239 --> 01:33:45,039
Speaker 4: That's a fair point. Can I say what I perceive

2002
01:33:45,119 --> 01:33:46,920
the argument to me is somebody who's kind of outside

2003
01:33:46,960 --> 01:33:47,079
of it.

2004
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 1: Let's just let them let him say it.

2005
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:51,960
Speaker 4: And then what I'm hearing from Jay is that that

2006
01:33:52,159 --> 01:33:56,840
passage reads that Muslims, by what the passage says, not literally,

2007
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:00,239
Muslims worship the same God that we do. Because it

2008
01:34:00,359 --> 01:34:04,600
says they worship God capital G proper noun. And then

2009
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:08,079
that is followed up with a description of the Christian God.

2010
01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:11,640
You are saying that this is correct because they do

2011
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:16,720
believe they worship the same God as us. Therefore it's

2012
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:19,840
not incorrect. I would argue if it said they worship

2013
01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:23,520
a God, you would be correct. Drammatically, it says they

2014
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:27,079
worship does God exist outside of it? Doesn't matter. They

2015
01:34:27,119 --> 01:34:30,039
are worshiping something you're not talking about. I'm talking about reference.

2016
01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:33,279
Speaker 3: There's another quote that answer, So yeah, read that next quote.

2017
01:34:33,359 --> 01:34:36,119
Speaker 1: Please don't interrupt, Luminingentians. I have a thought on this.

2018
01:34:36,199 --> 01:34:39,079
Speaker 3: So there's another statement beyond Nosratate three, which is lumin

2019
01:34:39,119 --> 01:34:42,800
Gentium sixteen. It says the plan of salvation includes those

2020
01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:46,279
that acknowledge the Creator. First among whom are the Muslims.

2021
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:50,880
They profess the faith of Abraham, and together with us

2022
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:52,079
Catholics they adore.

2023
01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:54,279
Speaker 6: The One True God that refute.

2024
01:34:53,840 --> 01:34:55,520
Speaker 4: You anyway.

2025
01:34:57,119 --> 01:35:00,359
Speaker 3: With us topics, together with us for future entire argument,

2026
01:35:00,399 --> 01:35:03,840
the last twenty Together with US Catholics.

2027
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:08,000
Speaker 2: Okay, afterwards, Okay, together with us who are they referring.

2028
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:11,600
Speaker 4: To muslim and Catholics? Okays and Christians Catholics.

2029
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:14,880
Speaker 3: So the Catholic with us, this is this together with.

2030
01:35:17,199 --> 01:35:18,520
Speaker 6: US Catholics. What are you talking about?

2031
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:19,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm I'm gonna tell you.

2032
01:35:20,239 --> 01:35:23,359
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say this right now, guys, to Orthodox and

2033
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:26,960
Anglican Catholic. Everything you're saying is convincing me more and

2034
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:31,359
more of the Catholic argument because the position that this

2035
01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:35,000
is taking. Imagine it like this. There's a rock concert

2036
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:39,960
an arena, stadium, and Catholics are all let's let's just say,

2037
01:35:40,119 --> 01:35:41,760
from from the from the argument fromend of this book.

2038
01:35:41,800 --> 01:35:45,800
Catholics are all looking directly at the stage, and Muslims

2039
01:35:45,840 --> 01:35:48,880
are in the back behind it, hearing a different, basic,

2040
01:35:49,279 --> 01:35:52,720
garbled version of it. They're cheering for Freddie Mercury, but

2041
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:56,199
they're hearing some weird version of the song exactly.

2042
01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:57,119
Speaker 1: When I hear that is.

2043
01:35:57,199 --> 01:35:59,640
Speaker 2: What it's saying is that they're that all of these

2044
01:35:59,680 --> 01:36:03,520
different religions are looking at they're doing things the wrong

2045
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:06,760
way towards the right God, and it's and it's because

2046
01:36:06,960 --> 01:36:08,039
there is only one God.

2047
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:11,800
Speaker 5: This is precisely the Catholic interpretation since Vatican Two. Now,

2048
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:14,920
I admit, but very outset that it's written by liberals,

2049
01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:19,680
so it squints towards more conciliation, which is bad. But

2050
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:23,000
we have to say that lumin gensium. Yeah, but after

2051
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:26,680
I'm done lumine gensium and the other two sacred constitutions

2052
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:27,560
as Vatican too.

2053
01:36:28,119 --> 01:36:30,079
Speaker 1: Okay, you're using.

2054
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:32,239
Speaker 4: I'd be all four.

2055
01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:34,560
Speaker 5: I'd be all four by the way, muting while other

2056
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:37,079
guys are talking, because that that's a really effective way

2057
01:36:37,119 --> 01:36:37,560
of It's.

2058
01:36:37,479 --> 01:36:38,800
Speaker 1: Still just yelling, though, you know what I mean.

2059
01:36:39,039 --> 01:36:41,039
Speaker 4: But yeah, but I could sit here and be quiet.

2060
01:36:41,079 --> 01:36:42,279
I'm just saying it is the Catholic.

2061
01:36:42,760 --> 01:36:45,800
Speaker 1: You know, Trump shouldn't have been muted either.

2062
01:36:46,079 --> 01:36:50,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, agreed, No, as the as the Catholic that there

2063
01:36:50,039 --> 01:36:53,800
has to be a distinction between monotheism and polytheism on

2064
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:58,039
the basis of natural religion. Everyone knows everyone out there

2065
01:36:58,039 --> 01:37:00,920
who's listening to this knows, okay, there're three Abrahamic religions,

2066
01:37:00,960 --> 01:37:02,840
which was posited by Lumingensium.

2067
01:37:03,119 --> 01:37:05,880
Speaker 4: There's Judaism, Islam, Christianity.

2068
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:09,640
Speaker 5: That this is you know, community college intro to religions

2069
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:12,800
one oh one. There are polytheisms. There are only three

2070
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:15,359
monotheisms in the history of the world. Now there's only

2071
01:37:15,399 --> 01:37:20,119
one correct monotheism, which is posits a triune God. They

2072
01:37:20,119 --> 01:37:22,920
say that they get this wrong. This is repeated throughout

2073
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:27,079
the Sacred Constitutions of Vatican Two that Jews and Muslims,

2074
01:37:27,119 --> 01:37:30,600
even though they're monotheists, they get it wrong. They don't

2075
01:37:30,640 --> 01:37:33,119
worship a triun God. This has said countless times in

2076
01:37:33,159 --> 01:37:36,920
the documents. But that's why we don't have the index.

2077
01:37:37,319 --> 01:37:41,680
They believe, or they falsely think that that language is

2078
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:44,880
reserved in the Vatican two documents for the polytheisms. So

2079
01:37:45,039 --> 01:37:48,119
all they're doing there and it's written by Jesuit liberals,

2080
01:37:48,720 --> 01:37:53,640
we're squinting toward, squinting toward a bad interpretation. They say correctly,

2081
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:57,079
they worship the One True God. Pis the Tenth says

2082
01:37:57,119 --> 01:37:59,720
this in his personal catechism. He's a tad favorite. Two

2083
01:37:59,720 --> 01:38:03,000
other medieval popes say the exact same thing, whether Jay

2084
01:38:03,079 --> 01:38:06,359
Dyer or lor Lodge likes it, this is the Catholic

2085
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:07,560
this is the Catholic view.

2086
01:38:07,840 --> 01:38:09,720
Speaker 1: Well, but he's branding enough.

2087
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:13,199
Speaker 4: I'm trying to help you brand. But with regard this

2088
01:38:13,239 --> 01:38:13,800
is the last name.

2089
01:38:13,880 --> 01:38:14,039
Speaker 6: Look.

2090
01:38:14,119 --> 01:38:16,920
Speaker 5: With regard to the polytheists, that's why they always say

2091
01:38:17,119 --> 01:38:19,920
they falsely claim that they falsely believe, that they falsely

2092
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:21,199
search for they seek for.

2093
01:38:21,640 --> 01:38:23,399
Speaker 4: Okay, So the distinction is monotheist.

2094
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:26,520
Speaker 3: This is correct. And everything Tim said there we would

2095
01:38:26,520 --> 01:38:29,920
agree with, except that from the Orthox perspective we reject

2096
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:33,399
the whole idea that there are Abrahamic monotheistic faiths. So

2097
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:36,720
even though Muslims might see themselves as that, when we

2098
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:39,520
look at the Old Testament revelation, we believe that it

2099
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:42,760
is the Trinity explicitly revealing itself in the Old Testament.

2100
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:44,920
They don't know the name per se of the word Trinity,

2101
01:38:45,199 --> 01:38:48,760
but it's Yahweh, his angel, messenger and his Spirit are revealed.

2102
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:51,079
And in John five through nine, when Jesus debates with

2103
01:38:51,119 --> 01:38:55,359
the Pharisees, who were the monotheists, he consistently says, you

2104
01:38:55,399 --> 01:38:57,760
don't get the right God. You don't get the right picture.

2105
01:38:57,880 --> 01:39:00,760
Abraham worshiped me, Jesus says in on it, he says

2106
01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:04,199
Moses wrote about him, meaning that Abraham and Moses had

2107
01:39:04,239 --> 01:39:07,680
faith in Christ. This is a key point to undo

2108
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:11,640
the natural theology argument that the Old Testament posited a

2109
01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:15,159
generic theism of just a one monotheistic God. If Abraham

2110
01:39:15,159 --> 01:39:18,159
believe in the Trinity, then the whole Abrahamic religion thing

2111
01:39:18,199 --> 01:39:21,119
falls apart. And Jesus says that to have faith in

2112
01:39:21,199 --> 01:39:24,239
Him makes you a child of Abraham. Galatians three pulse

2113
01:39:24,359 --> 01:39:27,840
is exact same thing. So when Vatican two acknowledges that

2114
01:39:28,279 --> 01:39:31,319
they have the faith of Abraham together with us, we

2115
01:39:31,439 --> 01:39:34,479
believe that as a denial of jesus teaching in John

2116
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:38,119
eight that you can be a child of Abraham without faith.

2117
01:39:38,159 --> 01:39:39,680
Speaker 4: I guess that's the art. That's fair.

2118
01:39:39,760 --> 01:39:40,119
Speaker 6: That's fair.

2119
01:39:40,159 --> 01:39:42,960
Speaker 2: Grot real quick, just as just my response is kind

2120
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:46,840
of like, let's say we discover like we can make

2121
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:52,319
intercontinental ballistic missiles and very powerful ICBMs. The modern American

2122
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:55,720
ICBM is one two hundred and fifty times stronger than

2123
01:39:55,720 --> 01:39:59,119
the bombs dropped on Hiroshima, Nagasaki. It is also possible

2124
01:39:59,159 --> 01:40:02,520
that there is also true that Indian Pakistan have nuclear

2125
01:40:02,560 --> 01:40:05,680
weapons that are substantially weaker because they have not yet

2126
01:40:05,760 --> 01:40:08,520
discovered the means and the capability by which to build

2127
01:40:08,720 --> 01:40:09,520
a powerful bomb.

2128
01:40:10,199 --> 01:40:10,920
Speaker 1: So I think it.

2129
01:40:10,840 --> 01:40:15,720
Speaker 2: Could be said that you may have discovered hidden truths

2130
01:40:15,760 --> 01:40:18,479
and the true path towards God and religion, and Muslims

2131
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:21,079
are effectively using a one killtun bomb when you got

2132
01:40:21,119 --> 01:40:21,840
a megadun bomb.

2133
01:40:22,520 --> 01:40:24,439
Speaker 4: That's why I think the argument would be that Muslims

2134
01:40:24,479 --> 01:40:25,439
are openly rejecting.

2135
01:40:25,760 --> 01:40:28,520
Speaker 3: So the point is that, like, there are fundamentals that

2136
01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:32,520
are absolutely essential to have access to God or to Christianity.

2137
01:40:32,560 --> 01:40:35,079
So to deny, for example, the trendy or the incarnation

2138
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:38,319
puts us one outside of the bounds of Christianity at all.

2139
01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:42,439
Speaker 1: But I agree that, like, look at it this way.

2140
01:40:43,239 --> 01:40:45,119
Speaker 2: There's a bouncer at a club and he says, if

2141
01:40:45,119 --> 01:40:46,199
you follow the rules, you can.

2142
01:40:46,079 --> 01:40:46,800
Speaker 1: Come into the club.

2143
01:40:47,119 --> 01:40:48,880
Speaker 2: And half the people follow the rules and get let in.

2144
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:50,880
The other half says that guy's telling us to go

2145
01:40:50,920 --> 01:40:53,239
bash the windows out, and they get thrown out. They

2146
01:40:53,279 --> 01:40:55,279
thought that's what the guy wanted. It's the same guy,

2147
01:40:55,319 --> 01:40:56,039
but they're doing it wrong.

2148
01:40:56,079 --> 01:40:59,720
Speaker 4: Well, getting we throw we do throw people out right.

2149
01:41:00,279 --> 01:41:04,119
Speaker 2: My point is when when Vatican two says they worship God,

2150
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:05,960
it's like the bouncer.

2151
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:07,239
Speaker 1: Being like, yo, I never told those people to throw

2152
01:41:07,279 --> 01:41:08,560
bricks at the building. What are they doing?

2153
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:08,760
Speaker 5: Well?

2154
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:11,319
Speaker 3: The problem is not just worship, but Vatican two uses

2155
01:41:11,319 --> 01:41:13,720
the term of adoration, which in Klac theology is more

2156
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:16,880
specific than just a generic idea of natural theology. Adoration

2157
01:41:17,039 --> 01:41:20,119
is something that's a specific term for like adoring the

2158
01:41:20,159 --> 01:41:23,239
Eucharist in Calaic theology. And I would also point out

2159
01:41:23,239 --> 01:41:25,359
that when my opening statement I mentioned the fact that

2160
01:41:25,399 --> 01:41:27,800
the Council of v n which is a medieval romancalact theology,

2161
01:41:27,840 --> 01:41:29,479
which was involved in the crusades.

2162
01:41:30,159 --> 01:41:32,840
Speaker 6: That attitude today.

2163
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:35,039
Speaker 3: That you see here is completely different than the attitude

2164
01:41:35,079 --> 01:41:37,399
then in the Middle Ages, where it was the abominable

2165
01:41:37,399 --> 01:41:40,920
sect of Muhammet. In the council they call crusades against

2166
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:42,319
the Muslims to protect the Holy Land.

2167
01:41:42,399 --> 01:41:45,199
Speaker 4: Sure attitudes change, dogma, no, no, how can.

2168
01:41:45,079 --> 01:41:46,560
Speaker 6: You be the abominable sect of Muhammad?

2169
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:49,760
Speaker 3: But now, but now together with us, they adore the

2170
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:50,279
once through God.

2171
01:41:50,279 --> 01:41:51,119
Speaker 6: That's the contradiction to.

2172
01:41:51,159 --> 01:41:53,159
Speaker 4: M They could be the abominable sect of Muhammad and

2173
01:41:53,239 --> 01:41:53,960
still worship point.

2174
01:41:54,039 --> 01:41:59,279
Speaker 3: Oh, they don't even though my references with us Tim.

2175
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:01,920
Speaker 4: Jake, can I are these both these are both dogmatic

2176
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:04,560
councils from Vatican two. Okay, then dogma contradicts.

2177
01:42:04,640 --> 01:42:06,039
Speaker 6: Okay, what's the argument.

2178
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:09,720
Speaker 5: Dog Okay, guys, guys, guys, that's I got simply and straightforward.

2179
01:42:09,800 --> 01:42:12,520
Speaker 4: Least. It was also untrue when you said we don't

2180
01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:14,439
have ordination, but that apparently doesn't matter today.

2181
01:42:14,479 --> 01:42:15,880
Speaker 3: Well, well, let's aboridation.

2182
01:42:16,039 --> 01:42:17,600
Speaker 1: Let's go there, let's go there.

2183
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:19,399
Speaker 4: It goes back to august How many how many?

2184
01:42:19,399 --> 01:42:22,199
Speaker 1: How many? How many years was the how many years

2185
01:42:22,239 --> 01:42:22,880
was the g Hud?

2186
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:24,439
Speaker 4: Augustin's goes back to Peter?

2187
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:26,319
Speaker 1: Is that? How that?

2188
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:28,680
Speaker 2: So the gihot goes from a No, we're we're having

2189
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:30,439
a separate debate again. Oh, because I asked a question

2190
01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:31,800
about how many years was the gi Hud?

2191
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:35,159
Speaker 6: You mean from the rise of Islam the literal.

2192
01:42:34,960 --> 01:42:37,279
Speaker 1: Like Gi had conquests across North Africa, the Middle.

2193
01:42:37,039 --> 01:42:42,439
Speaker 4: East, I argue, I mean moving westward, it was from

2194
01:42:42,800 --> 01:42:44,479
it was basically one hundred years, six thirty two to

2195
01:42:44,479 --> 01:42:47,199
seven thirty two. On the eastern side, it's not quite

2196
01:42:47,239 --> 01:42:50,720
as linear because there's the immediate Arab move into the north,

2197
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:52,840
and then the Turks convert and they come back down south.

2198
01:42:53,159 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 1: Six seven fifty and eighteen years was when.

2199
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:58,760
Speaker 4: Battle of tour Is seven thirty two. That's kind of

2200
01:42:58,800 --> 01:42:59,439
the reversal.

2201
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:03,880
Speaker 2: And then there were additional Jihads the eleventh and thirteenth century,

2202
01:43:04,039 --> 01:43:07,399
two hundred years and so I'm looking at the birth

2203
01:43:07,479 --> 01:43:10,760
rate for Muslims, which is three point one, as well

2204
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:15,359
as the hundreds of years of militaristic conquest under the

2205
01:43:15,399 --> 01:43:18,760
banner of Islam, And like, how many battles of the

2206
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:21,880
Crusades were there? There were a lot, like nowhere near

2207
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:23,479
as many as the Islamic she Hod.

2208
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:26,520
Speaker 4: I don't think that's true. I think there were a

2209
01:43:26,520 --> 01:43:29,159
lot more battle It really depends on Howmad fought in

2210
01:43:29,399 --> 01:43:33,680
seventy eight battles seventy eight alone, there weren't that many

2211
01:43:33,720 --> 01:43:36,399
in the Crusades as compared to the full total of

2212
01:43:36,479 --> 01:43:38,439
Islamic she had. There were not as many battles during

2213
01:43:38,439 --> 01:43:39,000
the Crusades.

2214
01:43:40,479 --> 01:43:44,680
Speaker 2: Let's see nine battles in the Crusades over two hundred years.

2215
01:43:45,439 --> 01:43:53,359
Speaker 4: I would argue against that. Maybe nine major battles. Yeah,

2216
01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:56,199
and how really defining battles, I don't know.

2217
01:43:56,439 --> 01:44:01,000
Speaker 2: There were eighty to one hundred military expeditions in the

2218
01:44:01,039 --> 01:44:06,920
first Islam a jihad. Yeah, so in terms of birth

2219
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:12,199
rate and expansion, I mean Islam's doing way better.

2220
01:44:12,279 --> 01:44:13,760
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm the missage Spirit.

2221
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:16,560
Speaker 4: So I will say Islam. The ability of Islam to

2222
01:44:17,159 --> 01:44:21,279
move after seven thirty two was largely due to the

2223
01:44:21,319 --> 01:44:23,680
Turks coming in at a time that could not have

2224
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:27,199
been less ideal for Christians. These two were well, thankfully,

2225
01:44:27,199 --> 01:44:30,079
we were the same at the sign were in conflict.

2226
01:44:30,199 --> 01:44:33,079
There was a schism that had happened about twenty years earlier.

2227
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:35,760
Then you get the Battle of Nansukurt in ten seventy one,

2228
01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:40,119
and the Byzantine Empire collapses in on itself because everybody

2229
01:44:40,159 --> 01:44:43,439
wants to be emperor, and ironically, the Church wasn't strong

2230
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:47,479
enough to enforce one single emperor in the West. The

2231
01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:50,000
Church wasn't strong enough to convince people, hey, we need

2232
01:44:50,039 --> 01:44:52,119
to go drive the Turks out, and had to use

2233
01:44:52,279 --> 01:44:54,479
Jerusalem as a little bit of a carrot on a stick.

2234
01:44:55,479 --> 01:44:57,880
So the Muslims came in at a time when Christians

2235
01:44:57,880 --> 01:45:00,880
were more divided than they had ever been, and we

2236
01:45:00,880 --> 01:45:04,439
were unable to resist the tide until ten ninety five

2237
01:45:04,439 --> 01:45:06,319
when we were able to assemble an army large enough

2238
01:45:06,359 --> 01:45:08,479
to go and infight it. But at that point the

2239
01:45:08,479 --> 01:45:12,560
Franks didn't want to stay over there. The Saracens became

2240
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:16,920
too numerous, too powerful. It was a long period of

2241
01:45:16,920 --> 01:45:19,920
strife that was largely caused by Christianity's inability to come together.

2242
01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:24,119
Speaker 2: There was an argument a few years ago, maybe like

2243
01:45:24,159 --> 01:45:27,119
seven years ago, where a lot of people, including myself,

2244
01:45:27,239 --> 01:45:29,720
made the argument that the US would become a Muslim nation. No,

2245
01:45:30,079 --> 01:45:33,840
because Muslims have a substantially higher fertility rate than basically

2246
01:45:33,840 --> 01:45:38,960
every other group, including Christians, and that combined with mass migration,

2247
01:45:39,119 --> 01:45:42,079
you see the emergency of places like Dearborn, Michigan. However,

2248
01:45:42,119 --> 01:45:45,920
with the recent trend towards Christianity among the gen Z,

2249
01:45:46,520 --> 01:45:50,600
and it's not just that Conservatives and Christians had more kids,

2250
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:54,079
we're actually seeing an ideological shift. And I think a

2251
01:45:54,159 --> 01:45:56,479
large portion of why we're seeing young gen Z be

2252
01:45:56,600 --> 01:45:58,920
more Christian is just because of their parents. But I

2253
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:02,000
think about half we are actually seeing an ideological conversion.

2254
01:46:02,079 --> 01:46:05,079
One of which is there was this really interesting shift

2255
01:46:05,279 --> 01:46:08,359
from like two thousand, i'm sorry, twenty twenty to like

2256
01:46:08,399 --> 01:46:10,800
twenty three or whatever where gen Z support for same

2257
01:46:10,840 --> 01:46:14,479
sis marriage collapsed, like literally the same people pulled at

2258
01:46:14,479 --> 01:46:16,680
like twenty years old then at twenty four had an

2259
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:21,640
inverse opinion on gay marriage. So that if combined with

2260
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:26,159
a reversal of the fertility rate decline, which may happen,

2261
01:46:26,359 --> 01:46:27,560
we're as seeing a lot of people start to have

2262
01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:29,920
kids again, then I think the US is on track

2263
01:46:29,920 --> 01:46:32,359
to become a conservative Christian nation probably.

2264
01:46:32,399 --> 01:46:34,439
Speaker 3: In fact, one of the global elite books that I

2265
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:37,159
lectured through was Jacques at the Leed's book Brievious Read

2266
01:46:37,199 --> 01:46:39,680
the Future in two thousand and six. He warned that

2267
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:42,159
for the technocratic elite, one of the things they had

2268
01:46:42,159 --> 01:46:44,760
to be concerned with was the possibility of a rising

2269
01:46:45,319 --> 01:46:48,000
traditional Christian ethos in the West and in the US.

2270
01:46:48,199 --> 01:46:51,800
So they actually wargamed that out. And a few years

2271
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:55,279
ago the Saudis were noted for I think putting sixty

2272
01:46:55,359 --> 01:46:59,760
something billion into funding mosques in the US and Islamic education,

2273
01:46:59,840 --> 01:47:00,520
So I.

2274
01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:01,840
Speaker 6: Think they were really pushing for that.

2275
01:47:01,880 --> 01:47:04,159
Speaker 3: But Islam has been has had a rough go on

2276
01:47:04,199 --> 01:47:06,239
the internet, especially the last couple of years. They're losing

2277
01:47:06,279 --> 01:47:08,640
bad and then a lot of younger people are turning

2278
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:09,479
towards Christianity.

2279
01:47:09,600 --> 01:47:11,000
Speaker 2: So I have a question for you guys, just for

2280
01:47:11,079 --> 01:47:14,119
all Christians I believe, is it Is it one of

2281
01:47:14,119 --> 01:47:16,479
the core tenants to go and spread the religion.

2282
01:47:18,119 --> 01:47:20,279
Speaker 1: Do you guys view yourselves as as doing that?

2283
01:47:21,319 --> 01:47:24,640
Speaker 4: I would say yes in this current present moment right now,

2284
01:47:24,840 --> 01:47:25,960
I think in just general.

2285
01:47:25,720 --> 01:47:27,800
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I'll talk about that general on large

2286
01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:29,359
platforms to large groups of people.

2287
01:47:29,479 --> 01:47:30,199
Speaker 6: Yeah, certainly.

2288
01:47:30,239 --> 01:47:34,279
Speaker 5: And evangelization sounds different than the in turn of scene

2289
01:47:35,079 --> 01:47:37,880
squabbling between ethics in Orthodox certainly.

2290
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:38,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think.

2291
01:47:38,680 --> 01:47:40,760
Speaker 5: I think, I'm sure all of us try to do

2292
01:47:40,840 --> 01:47:44,319
that in a different form for in platforms.

2293
01:47:45,000 --> 01:47:45,520
Speaker 4: I certainly do.

2294
01:47:45,560 --> 01:47:47,119
Speaker 3: Also, Yeah, I mean, like I said, like Islam is

2295
01:47:47,159 --> 01:47:49,239
having a hard time because they had a really strong

2296
01:47:49,319 --> 01:47:51,079
push in the twenty tens online and a lot of

2297
01:47:51,079 --> 01:47:54,199
people are getting into into Islam. But now a lot

2298
01:47:54,239 --> 01:47:57,640
of Christians are doing pretty intense hardcore apologetics. Like we

2299
01:47:57,720 --> 01:48:02,199
had that debate with Daniel Kikachu and e Jaws together

2300
01:48:02,199 --> 01:48:04,079
at Me and Sam Chamoun on Fresh and Fit. I

2301
01:48:04,119 --> 01:48:06,079
got millions of views and it was like ninety percent

2302
01:48:06,279 --> 01:48:07,520
just dominated.

2303
01:48:07,359 --> 01:48:11,520
Speaker 1: I mean Russell Brand. Yeah, you know, so I in

2304
01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:12,600
the skateboard.

2305
01:48:12,119 --> 01:48:18,319
Speaker 2: Community, it's degenerate garbage. Mostly these pro skateboarders have always

2306
01:48:18,359 --> 01:48:20,560
been scuzzy, drug abusing, Now that there's a bunch of

2307
01:48:20,560 --> 01:48:23,079
them that are getting baptized. Yeah, I'm not going to

2308
01:48:23,199 --> 01:48:25,920
single any anybody out, but I was surprised.

2309
01:48:25,479 --> 01:48:28,640
Speaker 3: To find didn't skating get like the corporations try to

2310
01:48:28,640 --> 01:48:30,319
take it over, like make it woke, and then people

2311
01:48:30,319 --> 01:48:31,239
are reacting to that now.

2312
01:48:31,319 --> 01:48:33,960
Speaker 2: Well, so with skateboarding, what happened was the industry completely

2313
01:48:33,960 --> 01:48:37,479
collapsed because there's no young people anymore, and the stewards

2314
01:48:37,520 --> 01:48:40,960
of the industry failed to cultivate a new generation of skateboarders.

2315
01:48:41,399 --> 01:48:43,800
So what happens then is, as of today, more than

2316
01:48:43,840 --> 01:48:46,800
half of all professional like all all skateboards active skateboarder,

2317
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:50,479
I don't say professional, are over thirty. What happens when

2318
01:48:50,560 --> 01:48:53,720
the water goes down, it exposes the scum in the reef.

2319
01:48:54,159 --> 01:48:56,119
And so now some of the most prominent voices in

2320
01:48:56,119 --> 01:48:58,680
the industry are degenerate, yeah, cringey.

2321
01:48:58,920 --> 01:48:59,600
Speaker 1: Rage bait.

2322
01:49:00,119 --> 01:49:04,199
Speaker 2: And so what happens is these companies try to figure

2323
01:49:04,239 --> 01:49:07,239
out how to sell to whoever they can, and you

2324
01:49:07,399 --> 01:49:10,600
end up with advertisements or there may be an inverse

2325
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:15,199
correlation here that when the company started promoting you know,

2326
01:49:15,279 --> 01:49:17,439
like men penny be women doing weird fetish poses, and

2327
01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:19,800
they are it's not a joke. Young guys say, I

2328
01:49:19,840 --> 01:49:22,079
don't have anything to do with this because scooting doesn't

2329
01:49:22,079 --> 01:49:25,800
do that. Scooting doesn't and that's growing massively in popularity.

2330
01:49:26,239 --> 01:49:28,479
All the skills are now in terms of action sports

2331
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:30,840
are going in that direction in BMX, and this is

2332
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:33,159
what happens when you know what I think it is

2333
01:49:33,159 --> 01:49:37,880
to relate this to the conversation, abject degeneracy freaks the

2334
01:49:37,920 --> 01:49:40,560
average person out, no matter what, no matter who they are,

2335
01:49:40,600 --> 01:49:43,680
where they're from. It is a shock to the system.

2336
01:49:44,039 --> 01:49:46,920
So skateboarding started promoting there's like there's one individual whos

2337
01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:50,800
a morbidly obese man who's trans and does fetish like

2338
01:49:50,840 --> 01:49:53,439
weird sexualized fetish poses. But it's like it's like a

2339
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:56,920
big fat guy, and a lot of a lot of

2340
01:49:56,960 --> 01:49:57,800
young men are.

2341
01:49:57,640 --> 01:49:59,359
Speaker 1: Like I I don't want to have anything to do with that.

2342
01:50:01,039 --> 01:50:02,920
Speaker 2: I think now we're seeing a lot of young men

2343
01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:04,880
shift towards Christianity.

2344
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:05,720
Speaker 1: That's in the polls.

2345
01:50:06,680 --> 01:50:08,840
Speaker 2: That may be a good explanation as to why skateboarding

2346
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:12,720
is struggling to market itself to your generation, because all

2347
01:50:12,760 --> 01:50:16,439
the big magazines are basically being like, you know, here's

2348
01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:17,880
a trends in the queer stuff.

2349
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:21,560
Speaker 5: And it's not internal to one culture or another subculture.

2350
01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:25,680
This is what's at large in the general popular culture

2351
01:50:25,840 --> 01:50:29,439
is a great reawakening essentially secular humanism.

2352
01:50:29,520 --> 01:50:31,000
Speaker 4: I'm not the first one to say it.

2353
01:50:30,760 --> 01:50:36,000
Speaker 5: It's reasonably obvious of ten years into it. Secularly humanism

2354
01:50:36,039 --> 01:50:39,800
has consumed itself and people are looking for what's perennial

2355
01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:43,520
and what's true. And it turns out that a lot

2356
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:47,680
of young kids are are finding Jesus based and so

2357
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:52,239
when they're returning to Christianity, they're looking for what they

2358
01:50:52,479 --> 01:50:54,600
take to be a based version of it, which is

2359
01:50:54,600 --> 01:50:58,079
why they're leaving Protestantism in droves and going to.

2360
01:50:59,399 --> 01:51:02,039
Speaker 4: Greater struct Sure, more and more structure is all I'm saying.

2361
01:51:02,199 --> 01:51:05,119
Speaker 5: So they're going to Orthodox or twenty twenty four was

2362
01:51:05,199 --> 01:51:09,279
Roman Catholicism's I think greatest year of re embrace of

2363
01:51:09,319 --> 01:51:11,760
the church? Pod how many people leave in the Catholicism

2364
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:14,880
for every person who joins it, You tell me, I

2365
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:16,359
believe it's something I'm not going to tell you.

2366
01:51:16,399 --> 01:51:20,279
Speaker 4: There's something like six to eight. Yeah, Well, one.

2367
01:51:20,119 --> 01:51:23,920
Speaker 5: Last year was the best year in the New evangelization,

2368
01:51:24,079 --> 01:51:27,600
which is what what Jumpaul the second set out to

2369
01:51:27,600 --> 01:51:31,720
do using media using the self Malaysia.

2370
01:51:32,399 --> 01:51:36,560
Speaker 2: Well, I googled it and it I'm sorry, I checked

2371
01:51:36,560 --> 01:51:39,720
GPT did it and it says that Protestants are converting

2372
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:41,239
to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

2373
01:51:41,479 --> 01:51:41,840
Speaker 1: We are.

2374
01:51:43,319 --> 01:51:45,359
Speaker 4: It should be clear that you dispute a lot. So

2375
01:51:45,560 --> 01:51:47,359
I did not dispute that. I think you did.

2376
01:51:47,439 --> 01:51:49,600
Speaker 2: I did not see one hundred and fifty five per

2377
01:51:49,640 --> 01:51:53,720
parish in from twenty two to twenty three, I said, leaving,

2378
01:51:54,319 --> 01:51:55,359
that's that's not a good metric.

2379
01:51:55,560 --> 01:51:56,800
Speaker 1: There's no real good metric.

2380
01:51:56,960 --> 01:51:59,359
Speaker 2: They say seventy eight percent surge and Orthodox conversions, but

2381
01:51:59,399 --> 01:52:04,000
again we don't know how the actual hard numbers. Orthodoxy

2382
01:52:04,000 --> 01:52:07,439
is seeing one hundred and fifty five converts converts per church,

2383
01:52:07,560 --> 01:52:09,720
of which sixty five are from Protestant backgrounds.

2384
01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:12,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think Protestantism has a major issue right now

2385
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:15,960
with first of all, with how divided we are. I

2386
01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:18,439
don't think that's a good thing. I think that the

2387
01:52:18,439 --> 01:52:22,039
Episcopal Church, many of the Presbyterian churches have totally lost

2388
01:52:22,079 --> 01:52:24,239
their way. Oh yeah, and that I mean, that's why

2389
01:52:24,279 --> 01:52:28,319
Thenking Catholic Church exists. I think Protestants need to really

2390
01:52:28,399 --> 01:52:30,119
look in the mirror and ask ourselves what the hell

2391
01:52:30,159 --> 01:52:30,520
we're doing.

2392
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:31,319
Speaker 1: Let me let me say this.

2393
01:52:31,359 --> 01:52:34,680
Speaker 2: When I, when I was looking up different denominations, chet

2394
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:36,560
Gptier volunteered unto.

2395
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:39,520
Speaker 1: Me that the Episcopal Church was was shrinking.

2396
01:52:39,800 --> 01:52:40,279
Speaker 4: It's bad.

2397
01:52:40,520 --> 01:52:42,640
Speaker 2: Like when I when I said, like, list lists of

2398
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:45,560
the churches by a fertility rate, it was like, you know,

2399
01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:46,640
as a possable is shrinking.

2400
01:52:46,840 --> 01:52:50,319
Speaker 3: All the wolde churches are basically adopting sterility, so they

2401
01:52:50,319 --> 01:52:52,840
sterilize themselves with their policies, and then they don't have

2402
01:52:52,880 --> 01:52:54,479
future generations and they die out.

2403
01:52:54,560 --> 01:52:58,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, the conservative the Conservative Protestant churches aren't as good

2404
01:52:58,199 --> 01:53:01,039
at marketing. We are not nearly as good at telling

2405
01:53:01,039 --> 01:53:04,239
people we exist. The Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches

2406
01:53:04,239 --> 01:53:05,960
are both very visible. I think that's why you see

2407
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:08,479
so many Protestants converting right now. I think if more

2408
01:53:08,479 --> 01:53:12,319
Protestants were aware of churches like the Anglican Catholics, there

2409
01:53:12,359 --> 01:53:14,960
would be higher numbers of people converting to the Conservative

2410
01:53:14,960 --> 01:53:18,279
Protestant churches as well. But we suffer from that problem

2411
01:53:18,399 --> 01:53:21,880
of being at schism with ourselves. In so many cases, there.

2412
01:53:22,199 --> 01:53:24,560
Speaker 2: Are a lot of churches that fly the Pride flags,

2413
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:25,600
even Catholic churches.

2414
01:53:25,680 --> 01:53:28,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're popping up. They tend to be in liberal areas.

2415
01:53:28,920 --> 01:53:32,600
Speaker 2: And I view that largely as the church is looking

2416
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:35,680
at the political views of the community around them, and

2417
01:53:35,680 --> 01:53:38,720
they're probably saying to themselves, in one year, this church

2418
01:53:38,720 --> 01:53:41,960
will be a coffee shop unless we get more parishioners.

2419
01:53:42,199 --> 01:53:44,319
Speaker 1: What do we have to do? Market whatever they want

2420
01:53:44,359 --> 01:53:44,560
to get?

2421
01:53:44,720 --> 01:53:46,039
Speaker 3: Woe churches die, It doesn't work.

2422
01:53:46,239 --> 01:53:48,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't. But you know I'll say this too.

2423
01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:50,079
Speaker 4: He die and the faith dies with them.

2424
01:53:50,199 --> 01:53:51,439
Speaker 1: And many people have.

2425
01:53:51,359 --> 01:53:53,399
Speaker 2: Said get what, go broke, But I do believe while

2426
01:53:53,399 --> 01:53:56,520
that's largely true, there's an inverse of go broke, get woke,

2427
01:53:57,000 --> 01:53:59,359
in that a lot of companies try to adopt. They

2428
01:53:59,359 --> 01:54:02,199
try to adopt wokeness is a marketing tactic to try

2429
01:54:02,239 --> 01:54:04,399
and get but they don't Understan hippies don't have money.

2430
01:54:04,439 --> 01:54:06,880
Speaker 5: Now it's well, it's a boomer marketing appeal that that

2431
01:54:07,239 --> 01:54:09,760
was really I'll speak to the Catholic position. It was

2432
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:13,479
really popular during an a round Vatican two, and they

2433
01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:18,359
thought that kids wanted the monkeys music and and long

2434
01:54:18,399 --> 01:54:19,920
hair and masks and tambourines and.

2435
01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:21,560
Speaker 4: Ship and they simply didn't.

2436
01:54:21,960 --> 01:54:25,159
Speaker 5: What they wanted was what's perennial and true and that

2437
01:54:25,159 --> 01:54:26,560
that's that's really what's Let.

2438
01:54:26,520 --> 01:54:30,760
Speaker 1: Me let me say this. There's this uh oft quoted study.

2439
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:33,960
Speaker 2: You have to look it up where they they told people,

2440
01:54:34,000 --> 01:54:36,119
come in, it's a it's a study. You're gonna you're

2441
01:54:36,119 --> 01:54:38,720
gonna ask answer some questions, and then afterwards you get

2442
01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:41,479
a free T shirt. People came in the first group

2443
01:54:41,640 --> 01:54:43,159
answer the questions and as they were leaving they were

2444
01:54:43,159 --> 01:54:45,079
given a free T shirt. They were then on the

2445
01:54:45,079 --> 01:54:47,560
way out asked how do they feel about their experience.

2446
01:54:48,159 --> 01:54:50,920
The next group came in answer the questions, were then

2447
01:54:50,960 --> 01:54:53,479
given a choice between one of three T shirts blue, green,

2448
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:53,960
or red.

2449
01:54:54,359 --> 01:54:56,159
Speaker 1: They then made a choice. They were then on the

2450
01:54:56,199 --> 01:54:57,319
way out asked how they felt.

2451
01:54:57,560 --> 01:55:00,359
Speaker 2: The people who were given the choice felt worse soft,

2452
01:55:00,840 --> 01:55:03,680
They felt regret they picked the wrong color. The people

2453
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:05,399
who aren't given a choice went wow, free T shirt,

2454
01:55:05,920 --> 01:55:08,079
but when they had to choose between the colors, it

2455
01:55:08,159 --> 01:55:11,479
actually made them feel worse. And this is often cited

2456
01:55:11,560 --> 01:55:16,199
as a in many insins not all choice actually stresses

2457
01:55:16,199 --> 01:55:17,960
people out and makes them feel anxiety.

2458
01:55:17,960 --> 01:55:18,640
Speaker 1: They don't like it.

2459
01:55:19,239 --> 01:55:22,199
Speaker 2: And so a lot of people, not everybody, but a

2460
01:55:22,199 --> 01:55:23,600
lot of people really just want to be told what

2461
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:27,560
to do. And I've said this before, because there's this

2462
01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:30,239
mentality United States that being a follower is a bad thing.

2463
01:55:30,560 --> 01:55:32,800
You want to be a leader, and I reject that.

2464
01:55:33,039 --> 01:55:36,680
There's a requirement before both leaders and followers. And they

2465
01:55:36,720 --> 01:55:39,439
try to insult you in modern media if you are

2466
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:41,279
just a follower of someone, because you have to be

2467
01:55:41,319 --> 01:55:44,119
the leader. And I say, when the king is standing

2468
01:55:44,159 --> 01:55:46,039
before all of his men in the fields, ready to

2469
01:55:46,119 --> 01:55:48,239
die for the world that they believe in and the

2470
01:55:48,239 --> 01:55:51,079
things they love, those followers of the king are no

2471
01:55:51,199 --> 01:55:53,880
less dignified simply because they're not the king. In fact,

2472
01:55:53,880 --> 01:55:56,920
without them, there is no king. So being a follower

2473
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:00,279
isn't a bad thing. And they you know, I think

2474
01:56:00,319 --> 01:56:01,840
modern society tries to tell you.

2475
01:56:01,760 --> 01:56:04,439
Speaker 1: Not to not to do that. Absolutely be rogue.

2476
01:56:04,920 --> 01:56:08,119
Speaker 2: No, it's perfectly fine. If you want to say, listen,

2477
01:56:08,640 --> 01:56:12,239
I spend my days taking care of my family. You

2478
01:56:12,279 --> 01:56:14,439
take care of the politics I believe in. You do

2479
01:56:14,479 --> 01:56:17,079
the right thing. Don't screw me over. There's nothing wrong

2480
01:56:17,159 --> 01:56:17,439
with it.

2481
01:56:18,439 --> 01:56:23,640
Speaker 3: Modernity is enlightenment, right, a Enlightenment effect. So the Enlightenment

2482
01:56:23,680 --> 01:56:28,600
was all about individual atimistic liberties which premised were premised

2483
01:56:28,640 --> 01:56:31,479
on the idea that there's no authority, there's no hierarchy.

2484
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:34,720
Hence why they were opposed to church and state monarchy.

2485
01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:36,119
Monarchy in church yea.

2486
01:56:36,279 --> 01:56:37,319
Speaker 1: And I will say this too.

2487
01:56:37,640 --> 01:56:38,680
Speaker 2: One of the debates we have to have in the

2488
01:56:38,720 --> 01:56:43,840
political arena around religion is that there's this romanticized, fake

2489
01:56:44,039 --> 01:56:47,840
liberal view that the Founding Fathers believed in this hyperliberal

2490
01:56:47,880 --> 01:56:49,560
society where anyone could say whatever they wanted.

2491
01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:53,039
Speaker 1: They had blasphemy laws back then. Even when the Founding

2492
01:56:53,039 --> 01:56:55,119
father says the right to speech shall not be infringed.

2493
01:56:55,520 --> 01:56:57,840
Speaker 2: Of course, no one in this room thinks you can

2494
01:56:57,880 --> 01:56:59,479
go out there and say, you know, and take the

2495
01:56:59,479 --> 01:56:59,960
Lord's name in.

2496
01:57:00,319 --> 01:57:01,159
Speaker 1: That would be a crime.

2497
01:57:01,680 --> 01:57:04,399
Speaker 2: They meant you could go and have political conversations in

2498
01:57:04,439 --> 01:57:04,800
a pub.

2499
01:57:05,560 --> 01:57:07,000
Speaker 1: And so when you look at.

2500
01:57:06,960 --> 01:57:11,399
Speaker 2: The context around the Constitution seventeen eighty nine and all that,

2501
01:57:12,000 --> 01:57:15,000
they weren't literally saying anyone can march the street to

2502
01:57:15,039 --> 01:57:17,359
the tombs of thousands of people in block roads. They

2503
01:57:17,359 --> 01:57:20,319
were saying, if you have a meeting in your city

2504
01:57:20,520 --> 01:57:23,399
peacefully to have conversations. The government can't shut you down

2505
01:57:23,399 --> 01:57:25,760
because the crown wanted to shut them down. But these

2506
01:57:25,760 --> 01:57:27,720
people think the Founding Fathers were a bunch of like

2507
01:57:27,760 --> 01:57:31,000
liberal atheis no.

2508
01:57:32,439 --> 01:57:32,960
Speaker 1: Blaspheming.

2509
01:57:33,000 --> 01:57:33,359
Speaker 6: Eight of the.

2510
01:57:33,279 --> 01:57:38,560
Speaker 4: Thirteen states had establishments of Christian religions, and the First

2511
01:57:38,600 --> 01:57:41,560
Amendment to the US Constitution was written assuming that all

2512
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:45,920
thirteen would. And what the establishment clause means literally was

2513
01:57:46,000 --> 01:57:49,680
that Congress and Congress alone shall not make a law

2514
01:57:49,800 --> 01:57:53,720
respecting a disestablishment of religion. Congress wasn't allowed to.

2515
01:57:53,680 --> 01:57:59,560
Speaker 5: Disestablish the state legislature established sex of Christianity. That's literally

2516
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:03,720
what it means ins And it was a Masonic US

2517
01:58:03,760 --> 01:58:06,039
Supreme Court in nineteen forty seven in the case called

2518
01:58:06,039 --> 01:58:10,119
Everson versus Board of Bed that literally reversed the meaning

2519
01:58:10,359 --> 01:58:12,880
and incorporated the First Amendment.

2520
01:58:12,920 --> 01:58:15,560
Speaker 3: Today you know of which like Enlightenment, free Masonic values.

2521
01:58:15,640 --> 01:58:17,800
How do you reconcile Freemasonry with Christianity?

2522
01:58:18,680 --> 01:58:20,920
Speaker 4: What about freemasonry is in conflict with Christianity?

2523
01:58:21,000 --> 01:58:22,720
Speaker 3: How about Albert Pike's teachings?

2524
01:58:22,920 --> 01:58:25,840
Speaker 4: Albert Pike is not recognized as influential by most Masons.

2525
01:58:27,039 --> 01:58:30,600
His teachings are non essential Freemason.

2526
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:31,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, worls and dogmas.

2527
01:58:31,479 --> 01:58:33,760
Speaker 4: I'll admit I've had my questions because I have run

2528
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:34,920
into things.

2529
01:58:35,039 --> 01:58:36,680
Speaker 6: Dogmas not used in the Scottish right.

2530
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:38,439
Speaker 4: No, it is used in the southern jurisdiction of the

2531
01:58:38,479 --> 01:58:39,319
Scottish Right in the Southern.

2532
01:58:39,399 --> 01:58:42,000
Speaker 3: So so he has a giant statue in DC, but

2533
01:58:42,000 --> 01:58:42,800
he's not influential.

2534
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:45,439
Speaker 4: He was influential for a number of other reasons. Secularly,

2535
01:58:46,239 --> 01:58:49,479
what about Mamneroal He was a accomplished ethnographer.

2536
01:58:50,039 --> 01:58:52,640
Speaker 6: Okay, what about Manley P. Hall? It's he also doesn't count.

2537
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:55,640
Speaker 4: Manley P. Hall admitted that he wrote everything that you

2538
01:58:55,680 --> 01:58:57,640
have a problem with before he became a freemason.

2539
01:58:58,399 --> 01:58:59,560
Speaker 6: What masons do count?

2540
01:59:00,279 --> 01:59:02,159
Speaker 4: Well, it depends a lot of talking about with freemasonry.

2541
01:59:02,159 --> 01:59:04,319
I mean the philo free masonry is the first three degrees,

2542
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:05,159
that's it, or.

2543
01:59:05,119 --> 01:59:07,800
Speaker 3: The philosophy what is not true? There's there's thirty, second,

2544
01:59:07,840 --> 01:59:08,920
thirty third degree.

2545
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:10,760
Speaker 4: There are in the Scottish Right, which is a pellet

2546
01:59:10,760 --> 01:59:12,479
to freemasonry. It's like getting in there at badge.

2547
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:14,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I don't care about what your terms are

2548
01:59:14,439 --> 01:59:17,199
for these different sexs when these aren't they have a

2549
01:59:17,319 --> 01:59:19,399
naturalistic bent and ethos.

2550
01:59:19,439 --> 01:59:20,960
Speaker 6: For example, Pike says.

2551
01:59:20,720 --> 01:59:22,239
Speaker 4: That Pike is irrelevant to me.

2552
01:59:22,399 --> 01:59:22,680
Speaker 6: He's not.

2553
01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:24,720
Speaker 4: He's do you have but not to the history freemaks. No,

2554
01:59:24,800 --> 01:59:27,840
Pike is irrelevant to everything outside of Freemason. Is irrelevant

2555
01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:31,359
to the history of Freemasonry, general Freemason. Here, who's the

2556
01:59:31,359 --> 01:59:32,399
one who knows what he's talking about?

2557
01:59:32,399 --> 01:59:33,520
Speaker 6: It's not an appeal to authority.

2558
01:59:33,560 --> 01:59:34,000
Speaker 4: No, it's not.

2559
01:59:34,079 --> 01:59:37,760
Speaker 3: Yes, it is, I'm trying to You're not yourself. Albert

2560
01:59:37,760 --> 01:59:42,680
Pike is a source. Add No, Albert Pike is a

2561
01:59:42,800 --> 01:59:46,399
source for the Southern the Southern jurisdiction.

2562
01:59:46,720 --> 01:59:52,039
Speaker 6: You're telling me that. How about your Themazini? Does he is?

2563
01:59:52,079 --> 01:59:52,600
Speaker 4: He p two?

2564
01:59:52,960 --> 01:59:55,119
Speaker 3: No, he's in the Grand Orient Lodge.

2565
01:59:55,279 --> 01:59:56,880
Speaker 4: Grand Orient, not regular.

2566
01:59:57,199 --> 01:59:58,319
Speaker 6: So what counts?

2567
01:59:58,600 --> 02:00:04,960
Speaker 4: Uh? The three degrees of the Craft lodges mainly split

2568
02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:07,800
between England and the United States. So the York right

2569
02:00:07,920 --> 02:00:10,000
is that what the York Right, like the Scottish right,

2570
02:00:10,079 --> 02:00:12,239
is a pellet and is not held in union with

2571
02:00:12,279 --> 02:00:13,399
all free Masonic ideals.

2572
02:00:13,520 --> 02:00:16,520
Speaker 3: So and the British Empire did what What was the

2573
02:00:16,560 --> 02:00:18,279
function of Freemason in the British Empire?

2574
02:00:18,279 --> 02:00:21,079
Speaker 4: In your view, it was a social club?

2575
02:00:21,359 --> 02:00:23,159
Speaker 6: Is it a sorry, a speculative Mason?

2576
02:00:23,840 --> 02:00:25,359
Speaker 4: All Masons are speculative Masons.

2577
02:00:25,520 --> 02:00:26,000
Speaker 6: No, they're not.

2578
02:00:26,439 --> 02:00:29,960
Speaker 3: The original Masons were they were, They were stone workers,

2579
02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:31,439
They weren't speculative free Mason.

2580
02:00:31,720 --> 02:00:34,920
Speaker 4: And yes, it did originate from operative Masons in the

2581
02:00:35,000 --> 02:00:39,199
late thirteen hundreds as a Catholic organization which very explicitly

2582
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:43,079
held that you must love the Church with God and

2583
02:00:43,119 --> 02:00:43,720
the Church without.

2584
02:00:43,720 --> 02:00:45,840
Speaker 6: You're not speculative freemasonry.

2585
02:00:45,399 --> 02:00:47,800
Speaker 4: All right, it was. It was the origin of speculative

2586
02:00:47,800 --> 02:00:52,359
free poem, Catholicist poem.

2587
02:00:52,520 --> 02:00:55,000
Speaker 6: Catholic churches condemned you for centuries.

2588
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:58,319
Speaker 5: Seven times, seven different times.

2589
02:00:57,720 --> 02:01:00,680
Speaker 4: Why why tell me why I know? Why do you

2590
02:01:01,039 --> 02:01:01,600
do you know? Why?

2591
02:01:01,640 --> 02:01:01,840
Speaker 5: You know?

2592
02:01:02,000 --> 02:01:04,720
Speaker 3: Because you know why the pope inside eight? Shut up,

2593
02:01:04,760 --> 02:01:07,479
I've read the paper. You've been interrupting me while asking

2594
02:01:07,520 --> 02:01:09,319
because your answers are stupid, Okay.

2595
02:01:09,119 --> 02:01:11,359
Speaker 4: Not stupid. You don't know what you're talking about this song?

2596
02:01:11,439 --> 02:01:14,199
And no, do you know why secret?

2597
02:01:14,399 --> 02:01:15,520
Speaker 6: Because you're acting as.

2598
02:01:15,399 --> 02:01:20,640
Speaker 4: A seventeen thirty eight inhumanium in humanim mo janus. Yeah,

2599
02:01:20,680 --> 02:01:22,439
in that one, what was the reason he gets?

2600
02:01:22,439 --> 02:01:24,680
Speaker 2: Sure to watch Tim kastier Raltz and I at eight pm.

2601
02:01:24,720 --> 02:01:27,560
Guys were over time, okay, and if we have more

2602
02:01:27,560 --> 02:01:28,960
time I'd say, let's let's get into Macon.

2603
02:01:29,119 --> 02:01:30,520
Speaker 4: I'm happy to come back and do masonry.

2604
02:01:30,600 --> 02:01:31,760
Speaker 1: Let's do another one on the freemake.

2605
02:01:31,800 --> 02:01:33,760
Speaker 4: Even just from the historical perspective, I think I think

2606
02:01:33,880 --> 02:01:34,920
he doesn't know what he's talking about.

2607
02:01:34,960 --> 02:01:38,319
Speaker 3: Well, okay, I think, but you're lying because Albert Pike

2608
02:01:38,439 --> 02:01:39,560
is very influential.

2609
02:01:39,640 --> 02:01:42,439
Speaker 4: Albert Pike is not influential outside of the Southern jurisdiction

2610
02:01:42,479 --> 02:01:46,000
at the Scottish Masonry All right, do you do you want

2611
02:01:46,000 --> 02:01:46,960
to shout anything up before we go.

2612
02:01:47,319 --> 02:01:47,520
Speaker 6: Yes.

2613
02:01:48,199 --> 02:01:51,119
Speaker 3: You can find me at my website Jason Alsos dot com.

2614
02:01:51,159 --> 02:01:52,520
You can find me on YouTube. You can find me

2615
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:54,920
usually the fourth Hower of Alex Jones every Friday.

2616
02:01:55,319 --> 02:01:55,439
Speaker 1: Uh.

2617
02:01:55,560 --> 02:01:58,279
Speaker 3: You can find me writing Sam Hid Show, and find

2618
02:01:58,279 --> 02:01:58,800
me on Twitter.

2619
02:01:59,119 --> 02:01:59,359
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2620
02:01:59,760 --> 02:02:01,680
Speaker 4: Uh, my name is Aden Mattis. I'm the host of

2621
02:02:01,720 --> 02:02:05,399
the lore Lodge History Unhinged and the Weird Bible podcast.

2622
02:02:05,600 --> 02:02:07,439
I do want to quickly say that the Anglican Church

2623
02:02:07,479 --> 02:02:09,840
does not necessarily agree with me about freemasonry before I

2624
02:02:09,840 --> 02:02:10,680
get in trouble for that.

2625
02:02:11,119 --> 02:02:11,239
Speaker 2: Uh.

2626
02:02:11,520 --> 02:02:13,920
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's that's where I'm leaving this. You can

2627
02:02:13,920 --> 02:02:15,439
find me here on YouTube.

2628
02:02:15,319 --> 02:02:19,800
Speaker 5: Timothy Gordon on Twitter. I'm at timothee Ology t I

2629
02:02:19,920 --> 02:02:22,439
M O T H E E O L O G Y,

2630
02:02:22,720 --> 02:02:26,439
and I'm on YouTube as well, Timothy Gordon doing a

2631
02:02:26,479 --> 02:02:28,000
show called Rules for Introgrades.

2632
02:02:28,640 --> 02:02:31,279
Speaker 4: Thanks for having us on. This was fun at each other.

2633
02:02:31,439 --> 02:02:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the most heated debate we've had.

2634
02:02:34,119 --> 02:02:36,399
Speaker 2: Who thought We're gonna be back tonight at eight pm

2635
02:02:36,439 --> 02:02:38,960
for timcast I r L. Don't miss it, Bring your

2636
02:02:38,960 --> 02:02:41,560
friend friends, tell your grandma. Thanks franking out. We'll see

2637
02:02:41,600 --> 02:02:41,920
all then