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Speaker 1: If you want to get the show early and ad free,

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Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me

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about this, even though I think on the last ad

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support me there. And I just want to thank everyone.

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It's because of you that I can put out the

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amount of material that I do. I can do what

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I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two hundred Years Together

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and everything else, the things that Thomas and I are

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doing together on condinal philosophy, it's all because of you.

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And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank

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you enough. So thank you. The pekan Yonashow dot com.

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Everything's there. I want to welcome everyone back to the

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Peking Yona show. I'm here with Thomas and building off

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of the episode that we the Dbahn episode from thirty

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the Thirty Years War, in the same in the same

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subject matter, Thomas is gonna jump in, so take it away, Thomas.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about the relationship of the Third

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Right to the Islamic World, specifically Palestine, and Palestine was

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absolutely affiliated with the access powers in direct capacities, and

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there was very good offices between the Fear and the

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Grand Mufti al Hussini. Despite what propaganda and mainstream history

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suggests he was a he came from a lineage that

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very much had a claim to the Manual a leadership

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in Palestine, and from a very proud lineage that was

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and remains very expected among Palestinians across the sectarian divide,

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Christian and Maslim. In order to understand that relationship, though,

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it's important to deal with the relations between the German

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Reich in the Islamic world generally, and early on, the

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Third Reich viewed the Islamic world not in reductionist terms,

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but as very much a political force that had momentum

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in the historical process, but that also was an important

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ally to be cultivated in the war against Bullshevism and

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Jewry as they viewed it. And this wasn't just pragmatic.

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There was a basic affinity there with some qualifications. And

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this is important. And it's impossible to talk about this

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with people in interrational manner because they just go berserk

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if you mentioned Islam. They've been that brainwashed. Some of

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these people are just incredibly stupid, But you know, the

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majority continues to take their cues from legacy media and

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from regime ideologies. The only thing comparable to it is

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people go utterly berserk if I attack the president. I

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don't know what they think the president is doing for

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them lately, or why they think he's in some incredible personage.

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But you know, I'm not here to make friends or

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to try and convert stupid people to make them intelligent

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or reasonable. It's just, you know, one of the reasons

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I disdain social media is because it's impossible to have

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serious conversations there because, aside from the paid agitators and disruptors,

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there's just this whole peanut gallery of idiots. You think

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it's like a video game or something, and they've decided

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they've convinced themselves they have some take on everything, and

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even though they spend their days like exclusively in their

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own house or Walmart, they decided they have some take

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on Islam where they have no understanding of it whatsoever.

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So not just I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm

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very blessed there's anybody who spends time with capital t

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traditionalists authors, you know Marcia Eliotti Renegan on particularly because

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I mean, obviously he was a Sufi Maslim, Julius Evil.

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They all road extensive way on on Daryl Islam and

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Muhammad and his role in the historical process and things

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like that, And obviously I've got a fair amount of

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Moslim comrades on the ground. Well, she and Sunny, you know,

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we're both good friends and reliable partisans. But who I

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can seek out to discuss compared to theology within things.

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So I'm not suggesting I'm isolated in that regard. It

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just it reaffirms why I am a vanguardist, because most

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people aren't built for this in all kinds of ways,

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and they don't even have their own prejudices. Their prejudices

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are Jewish prejudices or they're ones that you know, they

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glean from from legacy media apparatus, or or a fucking

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around on the Internet with people who are probably paid agitators,

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or like random guys in India or something just saying things.

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It's it's like a staggering to re of ignorance. But anyway,

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we'll stop ranting at the subs. The general disposition of

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the rich towards Islam, the Islamic world. Like I said,

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they viewed it as a global force that was playing

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an essential role in the unfolding historical process. They also

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predicted that although there wouldn't there wasn't going to be

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the imminent orderance of a new caliphate to replace the

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seat of Daryl Islam that obviously was vacated by the

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collapse of the Ottomans. And to be clear that the

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Kaiser Reich and the Ottoman Empire were very close allies.

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So the Germans had a particularly the German academ which

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had a very strong Orientalist bent, and the Foreign service,

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many of whom remained into the Third Reich. They had

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a fairly highly developed understanding of Islam and of the

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several cultures that constituted and obviously, as the war went on,

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the non European territories that were directly occupied by Wehrmacht

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were largely Islamic countries, and Sarajevo, which is the seed

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of European Islam, was occupied by by the Reich. So

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that's that's important. All these all these variables intertwined, and

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as I've written about in my manuscript, and I believe

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I've discussed here with Pete previously, the massacres or it's

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the annihilation therapy that was perpetuated against minority elements and

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the nascent Turkish state. The world came to know about

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that owing to a Maxiv on shooting the Richter who

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was deployed there, and he alerted both the Red Cross

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and the and and you know, the Berlin Foreign Office,

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and he was told to know on certain terms, to

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stop agitating for some sort of localized intervention or relief

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for these people, because relations with Ankara are very important,

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especially in these times of uncertainty. And I make the

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point that well, you know, and on shooting the Rictor

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he fell at the Munich Pooch in November nineteen twenty three,

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and Hitler went on record is saying that he was

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the one. He said the party never recovered from the

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death of shooting the rictor he was an essential personage

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to the National Socialist Party and the revolution. And so

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I make the point in a manuscript. So if from

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inception the NSDAP was this hyper racialized, you know, murderous

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conspiratorial cadre that simply hated all non arian races, why

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was Richter the only man who was raising alarm about

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what was happening in an Asia minor? Nobody seems be

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able to answer that question for me. They simply ignore it,

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or sam lying, or move on without addressing it. But

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be as it may. The Third Reich, although arguably there's

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the deepest sort of diplomatic rapport and cultural rapport enjoyed

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with Daryl Islam, the other major Access nations made similar

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efforts to curate and mobilize Islamic support. Mussolini he famously,

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I mean, this was very performative and very stage managed

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by In nineteen thirty seven he arranged for this ceremony

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where he was presented with a quote sort of Islam

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at a public ceremony in Tripoli, symbolically holding himself and

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the Kingdom of Italy out as a as a as

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a protector of the Maslim world against against communism, and

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he went on to declare that the quote laws of

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the prophet would would be honored. Gebels actually made note

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of this, and his diaries prolific as he was as

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a diary, so it was one of the reasons there's

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such a valuable artifact. He had kind of a cynical

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take on this. He said, you know, the duche never

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never passes up an opportunity to glorify himself as the

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protector of other people's you know, which was which was true?

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And I don't. I don't think Duce had some deep

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affinity for his lom or spent much time learning about

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its theological precepts. But it was imperative, particularly considering the

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primary battlespace that Italy was committed to with that juncture,

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to try and curate the support of these people, or

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at least mitigate any hostility that might be emergent otherwise. Really,

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the the Shintoist Japan, they established the Greater Japan Islamic

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League and simultaneously the Tokyo Mosque was established at nineteen

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thirty eight, and they very much dedicated a lot of

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effort and resources, both military and capital, to encouraging in

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Islamic uprising against the Dutch, you know, and radicalizing people

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in the in the Dutch Indies against them, both the

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British and and the Midlanders. And like I said this,

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in the case of the Reich, this long predated the

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the national Socialist revolution. The central powers, you know, particularly

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the Kaiser right, the Ottoman Empire was an essential ally theirs,

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and until they got knocked out of the war, they

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played an essential role in allowing Germany to sustain a

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two front conflict. There's so much emphasis on the Western

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Front and the Maelstrom and slaughter that that represented. There's

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not enough inc dedicated to the Usher Front of World

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War One, where it wasn't the stalemate that it came

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to pass in the West because the open step precluded

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it and facilitated maneuver. Poison gas was used a greater

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effect in in the East as well. And obviously you

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know until the when when when the after the Russian Revolution,

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the the Reich's faire was victorious. I mean, that was

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one of the big soar points of the of the

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military in the wake of Versailles is they were forced

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to give up these territories that they won on the

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battlefield but you know, before an entire army deployed to

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the East was freed up, you know, by the Red

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Revolution and the Treaty of Brest, the Tusk. The the

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Ottomans were playing an essential role in the Kaiser re

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Jew a strategic flank, and will Helm, who was not

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any kind of great diplomat or strategic thinker, he went

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out of his way to sustain good offices with the Ottomans,

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you know, whole Vegg was very much the political mind

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behind the kaiser Reich, but the Kaiser himself, particularly in

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dealing with you know, fellow monarchs and uh make them mistake.

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You know, the even in its waiting days, an Ottomans

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sultan had great authority. It was essential for dictates and

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declarations and as well as in sinuations both subtle and flagrant,

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come from the Kaiser himself. But you know, so German

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Atoman authorities, they collaborated and trying to cultivate Pan Islamic

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consciousness in North Africa and the Near East and Russia

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and India. I mean, this was this was a long

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standing effort. It's not a question that he emerged in

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nineteen thirty nine and in in World War two, as

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the Phamnach and SS. Even early on as they found

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themselves deployed to Islamic lands, German authorities were explicit that

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Islam was of political importance and sold out and were

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instructed to respect religious customs and show respect for Islam

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when dealing with Moslems and and to treat them as

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friendli as unless they, you know, exhibited disrespect for the Reich.

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It's it's heraldry or or for you know, the the

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personal honor a soldiers and officers on the Ust front.

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The uh, the Reich one as far as they were,

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the re establishment of mosques and madrasses, and they set

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aside pious endowments for the re establishment of of Islamic

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religious life. I mean they did. They did the same

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thing with with Orthodox churches. But I mean that goes

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up saying if you know the history of the conflict

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and the political side of things, but uh, you know,

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they this went a long way to undermining the Soviet

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rule because Moslims were targeted with as much hostility as

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as the Orthodox were, you know. And Gurbles and himselves

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made the point that the early Soviet cadres and KVD

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and the Czecha, they they hated the Moslems rethno sectarian

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reasons as much as they did the Christians, and viewed

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them as their repressors, and did incredibly brutal things and

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tried to tried to tried to extricate relious sensibility from

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Islamic communities. Vermont authorities also they very much cultivated, you know,

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the Ulama in Eastern territories and the Balkans especially. That's

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how headway was made. And as the Balkan theater became

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this counterinsurgency quagmire, that became very important. And at Pavolch

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Poglovnik of the Independent State of Croatia, he was raised

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in a town early in his life that had a

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very large Mauslim population, and Uh Pavolos himself he knew

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a lot about Islam and their rituals. There's a photographs

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of him wearing a fez when he's meeting with Bosniaks.

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It's very interesting and he he famously he viewed Bosniaks

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as quote racial Croatians and Sunni Islam. UH was viewed

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as a state religion alongside Roman Catholicism, albeit secondary secondarily

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to it, but that that that that that sort of

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expedited this these efforts in the Balden Theater, which would

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have been a lot more difficult if the Easter show

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was openly hostile to UH Bosnia populations and UH the

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UH the Vermont and UH the SS. They they granted

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a lot of religious freedom to Moslim recruits and UH

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Moslim formations. The religious calendar was taken into h account

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dietary laws with respect to you know, UH the mess

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hall and things. Both of Vermacht and the s S

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had email service chaplains, and they launched ideological education programs

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to explicate how you know, a Moslim should live as

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a national socialist, you know, and what the meaning was

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of national socialism to non Germanic yet Allied races. This

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was very very detailed, whatever if any whether anybody agrees

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with this or not, you know. And these education programs

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00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:50,279
were almost unfailingly delivered by by military emoms. The only

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times they weren't is when an EMOM wasn't available, and

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Bosnia emms in particular played an outside role. Again sarah Jevo.

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Only about two million Moslims lived in Sarajevo, but that's

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the European seed of Islam, and UH The way Moslims

247
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viewed it throughout the Moslim diaspora was you know, being

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being sort of the seed of Islamic culture in Europe

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and also being very directly threatened by by Communism. There

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was a peculiar interest in the fortunes of the of

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the Bosniacs of Sarajevo and reciprocally pious Sunnis, you know,

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pious UH, the Bosniak Sunnis. They they had a strong

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interest in the fortunes of their coreligion is you know,

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behind the they were still behind the verbial wire in

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the Soviet Union and in Palestine, you know, the UH

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military formal military policy towards Islamic peoples and brought strategic terms.

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Really that policy paradigm first originated on July twenty fifth,

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nineteen forty, just after the fall of France, you know,

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and as the Battle of Britain was getting underway, a

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man named Max Vhan Oppenheim. He was a retired diplomat

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and an Orientalist scholar. He spontaneously sent a memorandum, a

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seven page memorandum to the Foreign Office suggesting that it

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was both imperative to cultivate the populations and the enemies

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Islamic territories and do everything possible to incite a rebellion

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against the British authorities there, and moving forward to give

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whatever military material aid and diplomatic encouragement as was reasonable

267
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and feasible, you know. And he said if he said

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the time is nigh for a comprehensive strategy to mobilize

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the Islamic world against the British Empire. But he said,

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also if the British have time to consolidate forces and

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suppress a nascent rebellion, and well meanwhile holding you know,

272
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German forces at bay in theater, the opportunity will not repeat.

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He's also Oppenheim who'd spent most of his adult life traveling,

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and he's traveling and living in the Islamic world. He'd

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reached out directly as a private person since his retirement.

276
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He was in his early eighties. I believe to pan

277
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Islamic religious figures like Shakib Arslan and more most significantly

278
00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:04,839
to the Grand moved Amiel Hussini, and they became very

279
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:19,160
close and largely at Oppenneim's be hast Hitler, who had

280
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:26,119
a somewhat tempestuous relationship with the Foreign Office. He took

281
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this seriously, and German officers were deployed to the entire

282
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Moslim corridor where there was a British imperial presence from

283
00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:49,960
Egypt to India. And of course subsequently the Grand moved

284
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,839
Yea Lucenia was able to gain a personal audience with

285
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,519
the Hitler, and we'll get to that, but this was

286
00:27:57,599 --> 00:28:07,720
the this is the origin of what became a a

287
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strategic imperative in political and military terms. I mean, that's

288
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important for its own sake, but also the ribbon tropics.

289
00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:21,079
Other cast is some sort of fool or an incompetant,

290
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or the foreign officers cast is in the same sort

291
00:28:25,519 --> 00:28:27,920
of terms as the ab there as this sort of

292
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,960
a positively a fifth columnists. And Hitler's cast is this

293
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:37,319
provincial nationalist who didn't understand the felt politique. I mean,

294
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all that is ridiculous. And this the relationship of the

295
00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:52,519
Reich to the Islamic world in particular, is stands in

296
00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:59,680
a rebuttal to that inference. And so I mean this

297
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is anant subject matter for that reason. And Oppenheim he

298
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:13,960
he'd served in the kaiser Reich for decades and there's

299
00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:18,359
few people then living who knew as much about Islam

300
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,480
and Islamic societies as he did, and more than any

301
00:29:23,759 --> 00:29:32,920
one man, he was responsible for shaping the Kaiser's disposition

302
00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:41,880
towards Islam generally. He was trained as a lawyer. By education,

303
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,920
he'd become fluent in several Middle Eastern languages, including you know,

304
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:52,839
various Arab dialects, as well as Turkish. He traveled for

305
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,839
years through Africa and the Middle East, and in eighteen

306
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:03,599
ninety six when he was officially recruited by the Foreign Office,

307
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,319
he subsequently posted for twelve years in Cairo, where he

308
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:15,640
directly monitored political developments and cultivated and enduring relationships with

309
00:30:16,319 --> 00:30:22,960
Arab in Islamic leadership in Sudan during the Mahdi rebellion,

310
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,920
He'd been on the ground there and what he attested

311
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,880
to do in subsequent years was that's when he first

312
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,359
encountered Islam as a political force. He always understood the

313
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:48,400
deeply integral structure of Islam in conceptual terms, but this

314
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,920
had all been abstract or academic until this point. In Sudan,

315
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,519
he came to realize that Islam had a strong role

316
00:30:57,599 --> 00:31:03,400
to play in the burgening political process, that it had

317
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:10,799
an ability to animate pious elements towards direct military action,

318
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,839
and therein it was a force multiplier, and that there

319
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:25,440
is a peculiar interplay of deep theology and political military

320
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:32,839
imperatives in the Islamic world, and the Western power that

321
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:40,880
could integrate that into its own political soldiery would carry

322
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:52,200
the day in theater, and he he'd been able to

323
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:58,200
gain Oppenheim, had he'd been able to gain audiences with

324
00:31:58,319 --> 00:32:07,400
the Ottoman Sultan, with a number of other luminaries, both

325
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,039
reactionaries and reformers. What they all hold in common was

326
00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:16,319
a belief and advocacy of the pan Islamic cause in

327
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:21,039
lieu of this sort of narrow ethno nationalism that was

328
00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:27,799
still characteristic in the colonized world in substantial measure. And

329
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:41,960
Oppenheim's dispatches were delivered personally to the Kaiser, who basically

330
00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:46,599
viewed them as gospel in terms of how to proceed

331
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,400
in the Near East and North Africa. And the Kaiser Wilhelm,

332
00:32:54,839 --> 00:32:57,440
for all of his shortcomings, was for myriad and he

333
00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:03,400
was in many respects the Reich was unfortunately saddled with him.

334
00:33:03,839 --> 00:33:08,160
He did delegate to experts another reasons. Halveg subsequently had

335
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,559
the sort of power he did and on matters relating

336
00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:22,920
to h Veldt politique, the Kaiser tended to defer to

337
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:30,839
people he viewed as the experts, and that's very Prussian.

338
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:43,559
And that's why, despite Germany not having a global profile

339
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:51,160
in terms of directly administered colonies in the way that

340
00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:56,079
the United Kingdom or France, or the Spanish or the

341
00:33:56,079 --> 00:34:02,519
Portuguese did, they tended to do do very well at

342
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:20,199
at cultivating allies in the developing world. And this went

343
00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:24,719
some of this was and we'll get into this in

344
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,000
our Thirty Years War series. Isn't a side I want

345
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,039
to cover this when I'm about to discuss as well

346
00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:34,440
as the sort of proxy war that was going on

347
00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:38,000
in Japan during the Thirty Years War between the Catholics

348
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:45,679
and specifically Dutch Reformed elements. But the the Ottomans had

349
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:54,239
granted asylum to Protestants, both Lutheran and Reformed, who were

350
00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:57,719
either refugees of hostilities in the Thirty Years War or

351
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,679
were wanted by the Inquisition, and a sort of cultural

352
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:13,599
rapport developed between Protestant Germany and Sunni Islam. And I

353
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,599
think that that's something that's understated and a lot of

354
00:35:17,639 --> 00:35:25,159
these otherwise very complete accounts of the subject matter. But

355
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:35,159
even limited as the Kaiser Rex colonial profile was, the

356
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,639
Kaiser right did in the colonies that did have rule

357
00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:44,760
over did rule over Islamic populations in Togo and Cameroon,

358
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,920
in German East Africa now and maybe a you know,

359
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:59,079
and obviously it was far easier. I mean, I mean

360
00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:04,800
Africans are a subter and Africans are are the challenges

361
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,960
to managing those populations just because of profound alienage. It's

362
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:16,760
it's obviously, but the colonial authorities obviously found it easier

363
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:23,119
to deal with Islamic elements than pagan ones who ascribed

364
00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:28,639
to some sort of folk animism or something, and from

365
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:36,599
the outset curated good offices with Islamic elements in these territories,

366
00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:43,559
and local Islamic structures weren't disturbed so long as Muslim

367
00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:49,519
leaders accepted the colonial presence. In German Africa, Shariah courts

368
00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:56,159
were recognized, Islamic endowments were we weren't touched or taxed,

369
00:36:57,039 --> 00:37:03,360
Madrasas were left to open, religious holidays were acknowledged, and

370
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:11,559
the Germans wisely they ruled through Maslim intermediaries and Islamic dignitaries.

371
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,840
You weren't generally going to be visited in your township

372
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,719
by some by by a white man or a German

373
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:29,280
colonial administrator, and it'd be an African Maslim intermediary or

374
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:33,760
a respected man in in in the local mosque who

375
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,320
you deal with, and he in turn to deal with

376
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:47,159
the Germans. And on the one hand this left colonial

377
00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:51,599
governor somewhat isolated. But on the other hand, it also

378
00:37:51,679 --> 00:37:55,000
meant that these intermediaries they had the might of you know,

379
00:37:55,119 --> 00:37:57,480
the the Kaiser right behind them and the event of

380
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:05,000
an uprising, so indirect rule was highly effective. And that

381
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,679
it's not discussed enough that again in comparative terms limited

382
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:18,400
as the German colonial profile and experience was, it very

383
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:24,440
much was a school of political rule, you know, and

384
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,840
a high political intrigue, and they were very good at it.

385
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:35,440
And I think that's I think I think that's not

386
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:45,199
often enough acknowledged, other than in very perfunctory terms. And

387
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,719
this also led to as these kinds of colonial As

388
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,800
more and more business was done in the colonies, and

389
00:38:54,400 --> 00:39:00,760
as a geostrategic imperative developed around the German presence there,

390
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:05,199
there was more and more of these sort of colonial congresses,

391
00:39:06,559 --> 00:39:11,280
formal and informal between military and political and business authorities

392
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,840
within the Kaiser Reich. This led to the development of

393
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:28,039
a a a cadre of experts in Islamic studies in

394
00:39:28,119 --> 00:39:34,400
German academ and there was always a streak of Orientalism

395
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:42,800
in modern German academ anyway. But these guys who previously

396
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:50,320
really only were focused on classical Islam and you know,

397
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:59,800
the their relations with the Greeks and things, they shifted

398
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,320
their conceptual focus very much onto the contemporary Moslim world

399
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:13,239
and what a proper imperial policy should be towards Islam

400
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:19,880
qua Islam, and there really wasn't something comparable in the

401
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:28,000
UK or France. There was philology type stuff, and you know,

402
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:36,119
obviously a very advanced cultural anthropology, but a kind of

403
00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:46,559
political science of how European Christiandom should index with Islam

404
00:40:46,679 --> 00:40:52,400
and power political capacities that was pretty much exclusive to

405
00:40:52,440 --> 00:41:04,920
the Reich. There was a German Colonial Institute formally established.

406
00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:09,239
One of their big luminaries was a guy named Karl

407
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:18,920
Heinrich Becker and a couple of his colleagues, Martin Hartman

408
00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:27,239
and d j Vestermann. Becker was was centered in Hamburg

409
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:33,400
Hartman Investorman in Berlin. They placed themselves in their faculty

410
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:44,840
at the full disposal of the German Empire, and the

411
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:51,639
entirety of their labors and their endowment was put in

412
00:41:51,679 --> 00:41:58,159
the service of investigating and studying Islam and the colony

413
00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:05,599
he is, accumulating knowledge on it's spread, historical, contemporary its

414
00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:16,159
impact on powerpolitical affairs. There was these massive surveys undertaken

415
00:42:17,559 --> 00:42:20,559
by Becker Hartman Investorman in ninety six, ninety eleven, in

416
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:27,199
ninety thirteen respectively, which were then submitted to the Kaiser,

417
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:35,000
through the Colonial Institute, to the Foreign Office onward to

418
00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:43,239
the Kaiser, and this became a you know, viewed as

419
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:49,400
power political dogma in terms of how to proceed in

420
00:42:49,079 --> 00:42:57,119
in policy terms, both formally and you know, below board.

421
00:42:59,159 --> 00:43:03,800
The Germans Societ for the Study of Islam. It published

422
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:09,880
a periodical Develt the Islams the World of Islam, and

423
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:22,920
that became regarded as the seminal European academic journal on

424
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:31,519
contemporary Islamic faith and practice and politics. And you know,

425
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:41,159
most people too, even in the UK, which supposedly is

426
00:43:41,159 --> 00:43:44,119
full of these you know, progressives and people who have

427
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,800
a saying progressives and know what they're talking aboutbviously don't

428
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,280
but it's characterized supposedly by this this sort of progressive

429
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,079
sensibility and academ and then on the other hand, these

430
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,920
sort of machiavellian types of a deep understanding of alien

431
00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:09,000
cultures and how to establish and maintain power. They're in

432
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,239
most of the most of these German experts, their counterparts,

433
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:18,360
they they just looked at, uh, you know, indigenous religions,

434
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,000
whether they actually were savage, you know, forms of animism

435
00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:25,559
or paganism, and Islam is just so much you know,

436
00:44:26,039 --> 00:44:32,880
so much nonsense or something you know, primitive. It was, uh,

437
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:40,280
it was these German philologists and cultural studies types and

438
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:49,119
orientalists who you know, emphasize with the Kaiser and demonstrated

439
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:55,000
within and without of their own culture to academ you know, look,

440
00:44:55,079 --> 00:45:02,880
this is Islam is a a a formative civilizing element.

441
00:45:04,079 --> 00:45:10,239
The higher races within Daryl Islam, if you'll allow the

442
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:19,719
descriptor produce extraordinarily high culture. And Islam is brought millions

443
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,280
by millions of people out of ignorance and savagery. And

444
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:30,000
even if one doesn't accept that, it's a singular power

445
00:45:30,039 --> 00:45:35,480
political force that is playing an essential role in the

446
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,199
political process underway in the then nast in twentieth century.

447
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:47,079
And to be clear, you know, this is when Christianity

448
00:45:47,159 --> 00:45:52,880
was under full assault by the Communists, and it was

449
00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:58,119
uh when this, however, can try to me, have been

450
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:04,559
this enforced secular reigned throughout the Western world. That's one

451
00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:09,000
of the things that set the stage for the Bolshevik Revolution.

452
00:46:10,119 --> 00:46:18,840
You know. So Islam is this catalyzing element, really stood

453
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,519
alone among world religions. I mean, don't get me wrong,

454
00:46:22,679 --> 00:46:28,840
I there was there was pious Christians who are quite

455
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:35,320
literally waging a holy war against the Communists. And I yes,

456
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,679
I believe in in symbolic psychological terms and anthropological terms

457
00:46:40,639 --> 00:46:46,159
that all politics is essentially theological. But I'm talking in

458
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:57,960
terms of conscious religious practice and the ability of religious

459
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:05,039
imperatives to anime political affairs. In the early twentieth century,

460
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,119
Islam really stood alone in that capacity at global scale.

461
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:14,159
That's what I'm talking about. For clarity, and that this

462
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:23,320
was not lost obviously on these these people that were

463
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:37,960
talking about. Probably the best known political theorist who devised

464
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:43,280
a practice of imperial rule Islam was Karl Heinrich Becker.

465
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,840
He emphasizes again and again he said Islam wasn't as

466
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,800
the British claim a threat the colonial government, He said,

467
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,639
not only is it not a threat, but that it

468
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:02,159
should and can be used to bolster imperial rule and

469
00:48:02,199 --> 00:48:09,800
to guarantee peace stability in public order. He said that

470
00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:18,159
the main reason why the white Western powers were coming

471
00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:23,719
into hostile contact with Islamic cultures was because they were

472
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:29,320
either treating Muslim populations like they were ani mister pagan savages,

473
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:37,960
or they were viewing observance of Islamic practice as somehow

474
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:50,119
inherently subversive, you know, And that integral aspect of Islam

475
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:55,719
not only did it render it an essential, essentially political

476
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:03,960
confession in a way that other face or not, but

477
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:12,679
it also meant that to attack any aspect of its

478
00:49:12,679 --> 00:49:21,800
observance was to attack every aspect of the reigning way

479
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:31,519
of life in theater. And this wasn't a minority opinion

480
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:38,960
among the German colonial authorities, both political, diplomatic and military.

481
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:46,360
German colonial officers didn't have a hostile disposition towards Islam,

482
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:54,119
and they correctly viewed the anti imperialist elements and the

483
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:58,360
pro communist elements in theater that claimed to be pani

484
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:05,400
Islamic they weren't really because the two it was an

485
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:16,360
irreconcilable Veltenschong. There was superficially Islamist language in Moscow's propaganda

486
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:27,880
as well as within some of these anti colonial ideological subcultures,

487
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:36,119
but there was no depth to it. Johann von Leers,

488
00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:43,440
and we'll get into him next episode. He's a lesser

489
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,559
known personage within the Third Reich, and he was an

490
00:50:48,679 --> 00:50:54,719
essential personage to the to the to the national soldiers resistance,

491
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:56,760
so they did defeat. I hold him in great esteem,

492
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:03,159
but he correctly recognized Islam's not reactionary. In fact, it

493
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:10,519
tends towards a revolutionary paradigm, but it is socially conservative

494
00:51:11,599 --> 00:51:25,519
in terms of its view of authority and a assaultant

495
00:51:28,119 --> 00:51:33,960
or a king, or a colonial governor or a procurator

496
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,519
or or an occupy in general, even if he himself

497
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:40,679
is not of the faith and not of your people,

498
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:47,679
if he protects Islam from its enemies and allows the

499
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:52,440
free observance of Islam, you are obligated as a good

500
00:51:52,519 --> 00:52:10,840
Maslim to not revolt against him. For example, Wilhelm went

501
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,559
as far as he in the autumn eighteen ninety eight,

502
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:25,000
he the Kaiser went on a tour of the German

503
00:52:25,079 --> 00:52:28,320
colonies and of the Holy Land and the Middle East generally.

504
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:38,719
And he visited Damascus specifically to visit the tomb of Selhadeen,

505
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:45,760
and he gave a speech to all these you know,

506
00:52:46,199 --> 00:52:51,239
assembled masses of people where he declared himself to be

507
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,639
a friend of his lab and the German Empire, to

508
00:52:54,719 --> 00:53:00,320
be a friend of Islam and quote the world three

509
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:08,400
hundred million Mohammedians, you know, how to give you an

510
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:16,639
idea of the priority that Berlin put on the cultivation

511
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:25,519
of this relationship. It wasn't just a minor consideration emergent

512
00:53:25,639 --> 00:53:29,920
in the Foreign Office or or something that Colonial Office

513
00:53:30,079 --> 00:53:36,360
officers posted in theater. You know, we're we're we're trying

514
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:42,840
to force the Kaiser and the government to take notice

515
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:51,480
of you know, and uh this paid uh this, this,

516
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,119
this paid dividends. I mean not you know again not

517
00:53:55,159 --> 00:54:01,159
only uh did it maintain good offices with the Ottomans,

518
00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:03,599
who were in real trouble then, but who were an

519
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:09,119
essentral ally you know, within the boundar rationality of the

520
00:54:09,159 --> 00:54:18,840
power political paradigm that you know, reached critical Zenis in

521
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:27,039
ninety fourteen. But there there was an enduring affinity between

522
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,599
the Reich the German people and Daryl Islam that endured

523
00:54:32,599 --> 00:54:35,000
through the Cold War. In my opinion, you know, it

524
00:54:35,039 --> 00:54:40,159
was this is a bit of a tangent, but you know,

525
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:46,840
the only the only Marxist Leninist Arab state was South

526
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:51,840
Yemen and it was a cadre of East Germans who

527
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:59,719
really were the intermediary between the Warsaw Pack, the East

528
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:07,840
Black and and and the uh, the indigenous Arabs there

529
00:55:09,599 --> 00:55:20,519
that uh the book, Uh John Cohler is this a

530
00:55:21,559 --> 00:55:25,559
Cold War State department guy. He wrote a really interesting

531
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:31,360
book on the Stazi. I mean, he's very much a

532
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,960
a pro regime kind of guy, cold warrior type, but

533
00:55:34,159 --> 00:55:36,079
he and I believe he was probably like a lot

534
00:55:36,119 --> 00:55:39,760
of State department people. I think he was probably an

535
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:47,440
intelligence guy under diplomatic cover. But he uh, he wrote

536
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:52,440
about the the Stazi and the National Folks Armies presence

537
00:55:52,519 --> 00:55:55,960
in Yemen. You know, he he tried to cast as

538
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,639
Majoritaly as possible, you know, suggesting that you know, all

539
00:55:59,679 --> 00:56:03,840
these these East Germans swearing around like colonial overlords. It's like, well,

540
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,880
any they're doing something right that the yemen the Yemenis

541
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,840
didn't didn't open fire on him instead of packing. I mean,

542
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:17,239
I and the Yemen's aren't exactly the people who who

543
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,320
take a knee for others just because you know, if

544
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:27,039
anything there is uh impossible to govern as the patch

545
00:56:27,159 --> 00:56:30,199
tunes and they it was it was the DDR that

546
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,679
really sold them on the idea of a Stalinism. I mean,

547
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:42,719
there's South South Yemen. There there's a confusing pastiche of

548
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:47,400
of of of political intrigues in Yemen. But I mean, obviously,

549
00:56:47,519 --> 00:56:50,960
and I'm not suggesting that the soul or even the

550
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,559
primary approximate cause of them aligned with the East Block

551
00:56:54,719 --> 00:57:00,960
was East German persuasiveness. Are intrigues, but interesting they're one

552
00:57:01,039 --> 00:57:05,920
of the one of the Yemeni militias today in the

553
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,360
south of the country they ride under the flag of

554
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:16,400
South Yemen, you know uh, and they claim uh a

555
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:22,199
a Drake lineage to that polity, you know. So it's

556
00:57:22,719 --> 00:57:29,840
that there's something there, But yeah, that I think that

557
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,320
should be adequate foundation. Man, There's still there's a couple

558
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:40,960
other authors I want to get into relating to the

559
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,440
Orientalists academic culture and in the Kaiser Reig and then

560
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,920
later the Third Reich and the impact that had on

561
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:55,440
conceptual matters. But I I want to get into the

562
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,239
Grand Mufti al Hussini and Palestine and it's status as

563
00:58:00,239 --> 00:58:05,800
an access element and things, and then I promise after

564
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,559
that we'll get back to the Thirty Years War. But

565
00:58:07,639 --> 00:58:10,760
this is important then, it's it's particularly timely in my opinion.

566
00:58:12,119 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: Okay, do you think you're gonna be able to talk

567
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,000
about the ground Moftie and Ben von Leers in one episode?

568
00:58:19,119 --> 00:58:21,199
Or is this possibly going to be three?

569
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might go three, but I'll see what I

570
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,280
can do. I'll try and expedite it.

571
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:30,239
Speaker 1: Well, don't yeah, don't leave anything out just to uh,

572
00:58:30,559 --> 00:58:33,119
you know, we can do three episodes. That'd be perfectly fun.

573
00:58:33,639 --> 00:58:37,079
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, thanks for hosting me.

574
00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 1: Of course, always head on over at Thomas a substack

575
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,719
real Thomas seven to seven seven dot substack dot com

576
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:50,559
and his website is Thomas Thomas seven to seven seven

577
00:58:50,599 --> 00:58:54,320
dot com. The t is a seven and you can

578
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,320
connect to everything from either one of those places, and

579
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:58,960
if you want to try and find them on X

580
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:04,119
where where you know his account could be gone one

581
00:59:04,199 --> 00:59:08,360
day and back the next constantly.

582
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 2: I mean X as an ex as a total pile

583
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:13,400
of ship like it like it really is. I I

584
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,000
I'm not trying to play murder, but I only maintain

585
00:59:16,079 --> 00:59:19,719
an account there because people for some reason can't move

586
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,639
on from it, and it's it's kind of the one

587
00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:26,880
stop place, the index of people and stuff.

588
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:31,719
Speaker 1: As a kid say, as a kid say, or used

589
00:59:31,719 --> 00:59:35,000
to say this, this phrase is probably uh played out

590
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:36,960
by now. It's really fake and gay.

591
00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: Yeah it's it's garbage. It's it's really garbage, and yeah

592
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:42,000
it's fake and gay as well.

593
00:59:43,159 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: All right, Thomas, A couple of days. Thank you,