WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:02.040 So you want to go up this road here and 2 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:02.839 get to the roundabit. 3 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:04.360 You take a left and then you go past the 4 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:06.799 Murphy's house, you know, to Murphy's their young lad Sean. 5 00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:09.400 I think it's over in London now, Oh yeah. 6 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:15.839 FBD doesn't stand for frustratingly bad directions. FBD stands for support. 7 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:18.920 We support van drivers in Ireland with up to seventy 8 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:23.280 five percent off new van policies. FBD Insurance Support it's. 9 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:24.480 What we do. Can't miss it. 10 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.760 Once you pass there, a little terrier will start to 11 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:29.320 chase yet and once he gives up, you should be there. 12 00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:32.439 Seventy five percent off based on five years. No claims discount, 13 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:35.719 terms and conditions apply. Underwritten by FBD Insurance Plc. FBD 14 00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.600 Insurance Group Limited, trading as FBD Insurance, is regulated by 15 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:39.600 the Central Bank of Ireland. 16 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:43.439 Oh hey, it's your neighbor who grows a mustache every 17 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.759 November and truthfully it's more reliable a seasonal indicator than 18 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:50.039 even the weather. It's Ali Ward. It's also Native American 19 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:53.920 Heritage Month and there are more episodes with Indigenous ologists 20 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:57.479 linked in the show notes whole bunch of them, and 21 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:01.759 I wanted to take this episode though, and just lay 22 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:05.439 it gently on your pillow. If you've heard it before, 23 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:09.840 listen again because I called it when it originally aired 24 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:10.599 two years ago. 25 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:11.120 Let's go. 26 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:13.239 This is an episode you're going to listen to one 27 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:14.760 than once. I'm going to tell you right now, not 28 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:18.760 because the subject matter demands it for a comprehension, but 29 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:23.040 because it is the very ethos of Ologies, all wrapped 30 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:27.719 up in the most soothing, mellow audio hug you will 31 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:32.200 ever lay yours on. It's overlooked beauty, it's following bliss, 32 00:01:32.359 --> 00:01:35.719 it's mythbusting. Okay, let me just run through the thanks. 33 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.439 Let's get to the show. So thank you to all 34 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:40.040 the supporters. At patreon dot com slash Ologies. You can 35 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:41.879 join for as little as a buck a month and 36 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.439 submit questions, perhaps here yours asked in future episodes. Thanks 37 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:48.719 to everyone wearing Ologies shirts and hats and bikinis and 38 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:52.079 new face coverings at ologies merch dot com. Link us 39 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:55.159 in the show notes, tag yourself in hashtagologies merch on Instagram. 40 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.920 We'll repost you. Thanks to everyone who rates and subscribes 41 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:00.079 and leaves reviews. I read all of them and to 42 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:01.959 help Ologies stay at the top of the science charts, 43 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.560 and this is a fresh review from twenty twenty two 44 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:08.199 from Aver, who said, Allie, if we were in the 45 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:10.400 same state, I would be your friend forever. But if 46 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:13.319 you're ever in Montana, hit me up. Aver. I'm in 47 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:16.240 Montana sometimes and I need to go there to see 48 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:18.919 a man about a beaver, so I may holler. Also, 49 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:21.599 hello to the gaggle of restoration nerds who tune in 50 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:24.800 from the South Salish Sea. Keep doing the sheep science. 51 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:27.159 I read all our reviews. I'm telling you, thank you 52 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:31.240 so much. Okay, briology moss talk brio and Greek straight 53 00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:34.240 up means moss, So thank you Greek. That was quick. 54 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:38.879 So this briologist is perhaps the most beloved in her field. 55 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:39.840 She got her. 56 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:43.319 BS in botany from Sunni Environmental Science and Forestry and 57 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:46.319 a master's and a PhD in botany from the University 58 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:50.520 of Wisconsin. She has published numerous papers on mosses and 59 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:55.319 plants and traditional ecological knowledge. She is a distinguished teaching professor. 60 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:59.759 She covers botany, ethnobotany, indigenous environmental issues. She's been a 61 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.319 tech speaker. She's an enrolled member of the Citizen Potawatami 62 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:07.280 Nation and the author of two huge books, The Gorgeous 63 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:11.000 Gathering Moss, a natural and cultural history of mosses, and 64 00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:15.159 the New York Times bestselling Braiding Sweet Grass, Indigenous Wisdom, 65 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:18.800 Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants. Many many people 66 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:21.319 have suggested and begged that I get her on the show, 67 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:23.960 So thank you to brain Picking's own Maria Popova for 68 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:27.400 the nudge in her direction. We set up a time 69 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:27.879 to meet. 70 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:28.400 Virtually. 71 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:33.400 I have listened to this ologist's velvety, soft voice via 72 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:37.479 audio books so much that I was so nervous. I 73 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.639 was afraid I'd be too loud or jarring, or I'd 74 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:43.879 make an airhorn noise with my mouth. So I did 75 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.759 my best just to keep calm. And this episode is 76 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:50.680 just a gorgeous stroll through the forest floor, an I 77 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:55.759 opening loop, squinting gaze at hidden mysteries, and an intro 78 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:58.599 to your new hero. We cover what is a moss? 79 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:01.599 Where do they grow? Eat them? Should you have one 80 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:03.840 as a bath matt? Are they soft to nap on? 81 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:07.120 What's up with Lichen? How to incorporate your native teaching 82 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:10.000 into your science work, or how to recognize and appreciate 83 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:15.240 indigenous knowledge without appropriating it and moss smoothies with the 84 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.560 moss wonderful biologist doctor Robin wall Camer. 85 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:39.839 Of course, well there's that. 86 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.879 And so now you're talking to me from New York 87 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:47.319 right now. 88 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:49.519 Yes, I live in upstate New York. 89 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:51.240 How are the seasons changing right now? 90 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:55.040 Oh, it is just the height of June. I live 91 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.319 out in farm country, and so it's hay making weather. 92 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:01.360 So the air is just full of the wonderful scent 93 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.079 of new cut hay and wildflowers. It's really sort of 94 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:10.160 the peak of photosynthesis right now. So it's pretty lovely. 95 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:14.680 I know from reading you know your books, that you've 96 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:18.199 you've always been obviously drawn to the outdoors. Do you 97 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:22.319 remember some of your first kind of interactions with looking 98 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:24.759 at plants and looking at wild growth. 99 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:33.199 You know, it's really almost impossible for me to pinpoint 100 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:35.560 that because I just grew up in the natural world. 101 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:39.319 It was always part of my being and part of 102 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.480 my family experience, and so it's it's hard to say 103 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:47.360 there was a moment when I really connected. But I 104 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:51.839 had the benefit of a rural childhood and parents who 105 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:58.160 were avid outdoors people and naturalists, and I think that 106 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:03.040 I was mostly shaped by these old farm fields that 107 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:06.439 were around where I grew up. That meadow kind of 108 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:12.680 array of wildflowers and wild strawberries and all of that 109 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:17.000 was certainly the formative landscape for me as a naturalist. 110 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:19.839 I'd call it my backyard, except it was, you know, 111 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:21.519 the landscape, not my yard. 112 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:29.279 And what about different plants? What drew you to mosses 113 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:30.000 in particular? 114 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:37.120 You know, it's an odd story in that I've always been, 115 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:39.560 of course drawn to plants. And when I went away 116 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:44.079 to college to be a botany major, I took every 117 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.639 botany class I could get my hands on, and there 118 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.439 were a lot of them, and the only one I 119 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:54.959 didn't take was the ecology of mosses. No, really, I 120 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:57.800 left it till the last I thought, oh, really, you know, 121 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.399 it's just this tiny, little green fit. How could that 122 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:06.680 be interesting? So I'm really familiar with this notion of 123 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:10.920 the overlooked world because I did it myself. I was 124 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:16.279 really interested in forest ecology, and so I overlooked the mosses. 125 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:20.120 But then I took one class in it. That moment 126 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.319 I remember it was the first day of my Ecology 127 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.160 of Mosses class, and putting a lens on the on 128 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:30.519 the mosses and seeing a forest in miniature and it 129 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:31.720 was love at first sight. 130 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:37.199 So yeah, And I remember in gathering moss, you mentioned 131 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:41.560 that you had kind of a loop, a magnifying glass 132 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.920 and uh and you you spent some of your some 133 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:48.600 of your money to get your own uh huh. Yeah, 134 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:49.759 and I still have it. 135 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:52.480 When I think of the innumerable objects I have lost 136 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.079 in my life, I have never lost my loop. 137 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:01.120 And Okay, I'm here to ask then, not smartest questions 138 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:03.920 for all of us, So let's do let's just do it. 139 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:07.959 What is a moss for someone who doesn't know, well, 140 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:09.519 how do you even define a moss? 141 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.800 I'm glad you asked, because when people hear about my 142 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.759 passion for mosses, they look at me really funny and 143 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.879 they think, like, you mean that green scum, Like, no, no, 144 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:25.959 I don't mean green scum. Mosses are the oldest plants 145 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:30.240 on the planet. People say they're primitive. Really they're very sophisticated, 146 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:35.279 I think, but they're primitive because they're so small and simple. 147 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:39.440 That's why people classify them that way. But mosses are 148 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.279 members of the plant kingdom, the first plants to colonize 149 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:48.080 land three hundred and fifty million years ago. When I 150 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:51.759 think about what is a moss, A moss is really 151 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.639 a miniature forest. 152 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:57.679 Did I just purchase a thirteen dollars loop to go 153 00:08:57.720 --> 00:08:59.600 look at mosses and pretend like I'm in a movie 154 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:03.240 called I Shrunk the Biologist? I most definitely did. And 155 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:09.759 they do. They have root systems that are much different 156 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.879 than trees. How are they able to cling to so 157 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:13.960 many surfaces? 158 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:17.240 Well, that's really the important question, you know, when you 159 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:21.480 said what is a moss? Oftentimes the best way to 160 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:25.840 answer that is what do mosses not have? Ali They 161 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:32.039 don't even have roots. Really, no, these are not rooted plants, 162 00:09:32.039 --> 00:09:34.720 and that's how they can cling. They do have these 163 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:39.919 little threadlike structures called rhizoids, which allow them to attach, 164 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:45.039 but they're not absorptive the way roots are. They don't 165 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:49.440 have the capacity to take up water and nutrients. They're 166 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:52.799 really just points of attachment. 167 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:56.320 So think of a muscle like a bivalve attaching to 168 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.759 a rock or a boat. They're not eating through those fibers. 169 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:00.759 The is hunkered down. 170 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:04.720 And so when we think about what mosses are, one 171 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:07.879 of the ways to characterize them is by what they 172 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:10.840 don't have. In comparison to all the plants that are 173 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:15.440 around us. They don't have roots, they don't have flowers, 174 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:20.519 they don't have the xylum and flow them, that vascular 175 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.600 tissue that allows water to be moved within the plant. 176 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:28.120 They don't have any of that. And yet they're able 177 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:34.039 to occupy virtually every habitat on the planet and endure 178 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:38.279 all kinds of different kinds of environments. So they're super simple. 179 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.039 But in their simplicity is kind of the key to 180 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:42.000 their success. 181 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:46.799 And so without flowering, they reproduce with spores. 182 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:52.759 They do yep, just like in higher plants, there are 183 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:57.399 females and males. There are eggs and sperm tucked in 184 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:02.320 among the little tiny leaves of the m and you know, 185 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:07.679 like flowering plants, we know about insects moving pollen around 186 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:12.840 for fertilization. For mosses, it's they need water for that 187 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:16.200 to happen. There has to be a continuous bridge of 188 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:21.039 water between male and female for the sperm to swim along, 189 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.919 sometimes just along the surface of a leaf to go 190 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:26.240 find the female. 191 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:30.639 So the water acts like the ultimate wingman, just passing 192 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:34.039 along sperm like a note and class like hey, uh, 193 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:36.759 my friend wanted you to have this that boom, you're 194 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:37.879 pregnant with moss babies. 195 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:42.360 And once the sperm does fertilize that egg, yeah, then 196 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:46.559 it sends up this little stalk called a sporophyte that 197 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:51.720 will puff out clouds of spores that will go off 198 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:56.320 and germinate. They don't make seeds, but they work from 199 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:57.960 the dispersal of spores. 200 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.759 And so all of this is happening in miniature when 201 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:04.840 we're taking a walk through the forest and we just 202 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.559 maybe see a green log and take it for granted, 203 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:13.080 all of this drama is happening, all of this drama. Yes, yes, 204 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:14.159 and you. 205 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.000 Know it's like anything. The closer you look, the more 206 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:20.919 drama you see. And if you start to set aside 207 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:25.000 those notions of what mosses don't have and say, okay, 208 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.720 I think of mosses as real rule breakers in the 209 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.120 plant kingdom because they live their lives in ways that 210 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:36.000 are so different than all of the other plants. But yeah, 211 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:42.639 when you start to pay attention, they are successful because 212 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:44.919 of their differences, I guess would be the way to 213 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:46.679 say that, yeah. 214 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:49.879 You know, where can they grow? You mentioned that they're 215 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:52.600 ta can inhabit all these places other plants can't. I'm 216 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:55.159 trying to picture like the outer reaches, like where are 217 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:58.440 some of the most surprising places mosses have been found. 218 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:04.879 One of the mosses can grow pretty much anywhere. The 219 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:09.559 only place that they can't tolerate are salty environments. So 220 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:11.759 they're not in the ocean, they're not in the seashore, 221 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:17.240 but every place else they occur. And we tend to 222 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.440 think about mosses as like you said, being on a 223 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:23.759 wet log. They're in a shady forest, they're next to 224 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:27.240 a waterfall or a stream or a bog wet places. 225 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:30.159 But one of the most surprising places to find them 226 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:31.120 is in the desert. 227 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:32.759 Yeah. 228 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:39.000 Yeah, there are mosses that live off from morning dew 229 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.000 in the desert. That's all the water they ever get. 230 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.799 So to me, those are some of the most surprising 231 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.200 and one of the beauties of when you ask where 232 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.919 do mosses live, there's the big answer of everywhere except 233 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:57.720 for marine environments. But if we go to smaller to 234 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:00.759 think about the world, like a moss, losses live on 235 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:04.120 surfaces for the most part, you know, think about where 236 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.279 you see them. They're on logs, they're on trees, they're 237 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:14.039 on rocks, they're on pavement in city mosses. Mostly they 238 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:19.320 don't live on the soil, although some do because they're 239 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:24.039 outcompeted by the bigger flowering, vascular plants. So they tuck 240 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:27.960 themselves in on all of these surfaces where it doesn't 241 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.320 matter if you don't have roots. 242 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:36.480 Yeah, that's so smart. It's so clever of them. I 243 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:39.159 know that we might take them for granted because our 244 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:43.399 eyesight just doesn't allow us to kind of identify or 245 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.679 notice their differences. But when you're looking through a loop, 246 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.840 how are their edges different, and how are their forms 247 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:50.799 and structures different? 248 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:56.639 Well, they are at the scale of a loop, and 249 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:59.080 even at the scale of just being on your knees 250 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:03.919 and looking carefully. One moss is as different from the 251 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.440 next as a oak tree is from a birch tree 252 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:13.080 from a pine tree. Their leaves might have toothed edges, 253 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.240 the leaf might be pleated, the leaf might be round, 254 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.919 it might be long, it might be like a hair 255 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:25.039 like extension. There's tremendous diversity of form within the mosses, 256 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:30.200 and that alone is a wonderful introduction to mosses, just 257 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.440 to see that they have tiny stems and they have 258 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:38.600 beautifully arrayed leaves. People think about them as a green film, 259 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:42.639 almost like there's nothing structural within it. It's just like 260 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:46.840 a green textile or something. But no, they are tiny 261 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:52.879 little plants with world leaves and leaves that might be 262 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:58.840 flattened spiraled. There's tremendous diversity of ways to be a moss. 263 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:01.759 And that's why I always say to people. People say, oh, well, 264 00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:04.919 there's moss on that rock. Really, there's no such thing 265 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:09.519 as moss. There are mosses on any given rock. There 266 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.960 might be ten different kinds of moss that until you 267 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.919 start to look, it just looks like green wallpaper. But 268 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.679 then when you stop and look, you see that it's 269 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:21.360 a whole world. 270 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:27.600 And how are all of those different mosses categorized? How 271 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:31.279 I know that they don't have a lot of common names. 272 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:39.159 True, Unfortunately, mosses within sort of western natural history, shall 273 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:43.720 we say, have been so overlooked that for the most part, 274 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:47.679 they don't even have common names. Although just and there 275 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:51.679 weren't even field guides to them until a few years ago, 276 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:57.200 and there are now some nice photographic and drawing based 277 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:03.279 field guides and some attempt to put common names on them. 278 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:09.240 I'll admit they're not very interesting common names Hooker's branched 279 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:14.079 carpet moss. You know, it's you know, not really very evocative. 280 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:20.440 But maybe as people start looking more they'll they'll have better, 281 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:22.440 more colorful names. 282 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.960 So when you call a moss side note, you usually 283 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:29.519 call it by its buttoned up formal Latin name. But 284 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:34.599 since doctor Kimmer is like the bryologist, I asked, is 285 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.759 she going to get to name any like Kimmer's shag 286 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.240 or heck in cool green fluf? She was like, I'm good. 287 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:45.839 I'm really more of a moss ecologist, and so I'm 288 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:51.400 more interested in their relationships and their adaptive structures. And 289 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.680 the names are convenient ways to discern one from the other, 290 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.759 and of course they're important in understanding evolutionary really relationships. 291 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:05.599 But my fascination with them is is much more in 292 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:10.799 what they're doing rather than who they are in a 293 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:12.599 in a taxonomic sense. 294 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.039 That's a great way to put it. And what is 295 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.240 their role ecologically? That's a huge question, I realized, But 296 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:23.240 what are they what are they busy doing? 297 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:28.000 Well, I'm so glad you asked, because they're they're tiny 298 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:32.640 little plants and yet they have a huge role to play. 299 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:38.519 Where to start. One of the most important things to 300 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:42.160 think about in terms of the roles that mosses play 301 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:46.480 is that their whole bodies, their whole way of being, 302 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:51.240 is designed at the scale of water drops. They are 303 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:56.400 designed to attract and hold water, and so one of 304 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.359 their major roles is to do exactly that. Moss are 305 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.599 like sponges. They hold the water and then they release 306 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:09.039 it slowly into the environment, so they create humidity. For example, 307 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:14.119 they also create a moist seed bed for other plants 308 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:17.039 to seeds to fall on, and then those seeds are 309 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:21.480 essentially falling on to a damp sponge that's holding on 310 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:30.079 to that moisture. They are moisture holding capacity influences nutrients too. 311 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.880 Think about that moss on a log that you were invoking, Well, 312 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:39.079 if that moss is keeping the log damp by virtue 313 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.839 of being a sponge, that means that the decay fungi 314 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:46.480 are hard at work inside that log, breaking it down 315 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:52.279 recycling nutrients much more effectively than if that log didn't 316 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.039 have a moss blanket on it. So they keep the 317 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:01.960 environment moist, which allows men and many other processes too unfold. 318 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:07.599 That's certainly one of their major roles. You'll you'll have 319 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:09.519 to turn me off, Ali as I know. 320 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:12.119 I love this. My ears are open. 321 00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:17.200 Okay. One of the other things that I think people 322 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.839 are fascinated to know is that mosses have been termed 323 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:27.960 the coral reef of the forest because within a moss 324 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:33.400 there are hundreds of little organisms living in that. When 325 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:36.799 we say, well, the mosses are a miniature forest, they're 326 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:40.279 not only a miniature forest of tiny little trees, but 327 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:44.599 they have metaphorically birds living in that canopy. There are 328 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.880 all kinds of invertebrates that travel up and down the 329 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.799 trunks of the mosses, if you will, from the top 330 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:55.480 of the moss canopy down to the soil. There are herbivores, 331 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.039 there are grazers, there are predators. There's a whole food 332 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:03.599 chain happening inside a little clump of moss. 333 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.720 The most insane festival the world has ever seen. 334 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.519 So they are tremendous reservoirs of biodiversity, and that's why 335 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:14.160 they get called the coral reefs of the forest. 336 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:20.000 And what eats moss? Who grazes on it? Yeah, it's 337 00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:25.519 a great question. For the most part, mosses are so 338 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:32.160 well chemically defended that not much eats them. Within that 339 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:36.839 little microcosm, there are some invertebrates which will eat them. 340 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.400 The invertebrates that have piercing mouth parts will sometimes stick 341 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:46.160 that stylet into a moss cell and take out the contents. 342 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:51.920 There are some larvae that will actually consume the leaf, 343 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:58.119 but for the most part, mosses themselves are not consumed. 344 00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:02.519 So what do I mean by grazers. Well, within that 345 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:06.799 little moss forest, there are a little algae and bacteria 346 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.599 and fungi that live on the moist moss leaf surface, 347 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:14.039 and there are insects that come along, invertebrates excuse me, 348 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:18.799 that come along and actually scrape off the little epiphytic 349 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:22.400 algae and fungi, And that's what they're eating, not the moss. 350 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:25.519 They're living this stuff. They're eating this stuff that's growing 351 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:29.839 on the moss. Okay side note, epiphytic means stuff that 352 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:34.039 grows on other stuff. So any epiphyte is a plant 353 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.279 that grows on another plant and just needs air and moisture. 354 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:39.799 It's not parasite, it's just chillin. It just uses the 355 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:45.839 other plant for support. Few epiphytes are mosses, air plants, orchids. 356 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:50.160 And Spanish moss, which is not a moss. It's just 357 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.680 named after its resemblance to a beard lichen. But it's 358 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:56.200 also not a lichen, nor is it from Spain. So 359 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.519 whenever you feel bad about yourself, just remember people had 360 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:04.480 three shots to name Spanish moss and they screwed up 361 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:08.920 three times. So you're doing fine, buddy. Oh and what 362 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:12.160 kind of chemical defenses are the mosses producing. 363 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.720 Well, I guess I should back up to answer that 364 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:21.279 to say that that for the most part, vertebrates do 365 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:26.240 not eat mosses. The only ones that do birds will 366 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.799 sometimes eat the capsules, the sporophytes, which are protein rich, 367 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.480 but they almost never eat the leafy part of the plant, 368 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.160 in large part because that leafy part of the plant 369 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:40.720 is so low in nutrients. It's mostly just sell wall 370 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:44.279 and water. There's not a lot of sugars or proteins 371 00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:47.599 in those leaves, so it's kind of a why bother. 372 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:54.559 You shouldn't eat them because they're nothing but fiber, and 373 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:58.279 they have a lot of anti microbials in them, and 374 00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.519 that's where the chemical defenses men. I mean, if you 375 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:06.000 think about it, it's a superb adaptation because mosses live 376 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:10.680 on wet surfaces, right, They live on bark and soil 377 00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:14.759 and logs and rocks, and so therefore they would be 378 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.319 subject you would think, to attack by fun dry and 379 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:24.039 by bacteria. But they have over a long evolutionary history 380 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:30.559 they have antimicrobials, primarily polyphenolic compounds and tannins that are 381 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:35.240 in those leaves that make them unpalatable as well as 382 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:41.319 not very rewarding for any organisms to eat them. 383 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:43.680 So if you're like, yes, yes, a polyphenol, but you 384 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:46.319 don't know what one is, don't worry, I gotcha. So, 385 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.640 a polyphenol is a carbon containing chemical and it's characterized 386 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:54.400 by usually many repeating phenol groups. A phenol is a 387 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:59.240 C six H five Oh. So, Polyphenols can do things 388 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:03.000 like relief or suppressed growth hormones. They can protect plants 389 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.119 from u V rays, they can deter moss munchers. They 390 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:09.519 can even signal to other plants like hey, what's up, 391 00:25:09.559 --> 00:25:12.519 let's ripen. They can also fight infections, and those last 392 00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:15.799 types are called phyto alexins in case you're ever in 393 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:18.119 need of that word. Now, a tannin is a type 394 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:20.680 of polyphenol, And if you've ever had like a dry 395 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:25.599 tongue feeling from red wine or a green banana, or 396 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:29.240 God forbid you eat an unripe per cinmon, which is 397 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:33.000 so cringe inducing you you might as well just try 398 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:36.000 to get a tongue transplant, because it's brutal. It's game over. 399 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:38.519 But yeah, then you've had tannins. Now, what if you 400 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:41.519 ate stuff that other people don't want to eat? Would 401 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:45.599