1 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,039 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,760 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle's senior elections correspondent at the 3 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,679 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:31,920 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,399 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST. 6 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,960 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:43,079 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:47,799 Our guest today is Margaret Roberts, award winning journalist, former 9 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,880 news director of America's Most Wanted, an author of the 10 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,920 compelling new book Blowback, the untold story of the FBI 11 00:00:57,399 --> 00:01:01,439 and the Oklahoma City bombing. To believe it has been 12 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,560 thirty plus years since that awful event, Margaret, thank you 13 00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:08,159 so much for joining us on the Federalist Radio Hour. 14 00:01:08,519 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: Great to be with you, Matt. 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: This is a topic, of course, that engrossed our attention 16 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,840 for so long, and I think it still does today. 17 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,799 I think it still resonates thirty years after you ask, 18 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,400 and I want to start here. You ask a very 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:31,359 very important question, a very compelling question. Once again, what 20 00:01:31,439 --> 00:01:35,599 if everything we know about one of America's darkest days 21 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:40,200 is wrong. And I think that is ultimately the premise 22 00:01:40,239 --> 00:01:41,159 of your book, is it not? 23 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 3: It is, Matt, absolutely, and I think it does resonate 24 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,079 for what is going on today. We just have almost 25 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:58,400 a sense of vertigo about some of these stories that 26 00:01:58,959 --> 00:02:02,719 we thought we understand because of what our news media 27 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,560 told us, but they turn out to be very different. 28 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:12,479 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you know, we're seeing that the reporting as 29 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,879 we speak today, all of this week has been about 30 00:02:16,479 --> 00:02:20,919 the Russian collusion hoax and the you know what, we're 31 00:02:21,199 --> 00:02:24,840 finding some very troubling documents about all of that in 32 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,240 the people who were involved in setting that whole narrative 33 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,759 into motion. And I think there is was the is 34 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,960 the accepted narrative of the FBI. But you say, let's 35 00:02:38,199 --> 00:02:43,240 think about this again. I mean, after April nineteenth of 36 00:02:43,319 --> 00:02:46,800 nineteen ninety five, when that blast occurred, one hundred and 37 00:02:46,879 --> 00:02:52,919 sixty eight lives lost, children lost, like a war zone 38 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:59,960 in Oklahoma City at the Murrah Building. Immediately, almost immediately, 39 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:03,199 they had Timothy mcveay at least law enforcement officials had 40 00:03:03,199 --> 00:03:06,319 Timothy McVeagh in custody and they were piecing this thing together. 41 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,759 But in your reporting you have found there are some 42 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:17,039 things not just missed, but glossed over and then perhaps 43 00:03:17,159 --> 00:03:20,319 blocked from the FBI moving forward. 44 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,319 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you're right. 45 00:03:24,439 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 3: It seemed that the FBI had sewed this case up 46 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:33,840 in just a couple of days when Timothy McVay was 47 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,599 perk walked out of the jail and Perry, But almost 48 00:03:39,639 --> 00:03:52,439 immediately contradictions discrepancies began to appear. Most notably, Timothy mcveay 49 00:03:52,879 --> 00:04:01,439 had an accomplice, never identified, never arrested, known only as 50 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:07,479 John Doe two, but very definitely there on the scene, 51 00:04:07,759 --> 00:04:12,319 riding in the rider truck with Timothy McVeigh and seen 52 00:04:12,479 --> 00:04:18,839 by twenty four eyewitnesses. He then vanished into thin air, 53 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:26,199 became the subject of the world's biggest manhunt ever, with a. 54 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: Two million dollar price on his head for his capture, And. 55 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 3: Yet the FBI almost immediately began backing away from the 56 00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:43,399 existence of John Doe two. 57 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 2: And of course, when Timothy McVay. 58 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: Was tried for the bombing, he was tried basically on 59 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:57,040 a prosecution of lone wolf terror, but it was clear 60 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,879 from other things that began happening. 61 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,079 Speaker 2: Top journalist reported. 62 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:08,759 Speaker 3: That the FBI had surveillance videotape of John Doe two 63 00:05:09,439 --> 00:05:13,439 and a grand juror, a McVeigh grand juror, was so 64 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,839 upset with what was going on behind those closed doors 65 00:05:18,439 --> 00:05:22,959 that he went rogue. Eventually wrote a letter to the 66 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:29,279 judge in the case saying, the prosecutors are rigging this jury, 67 00:05:30,079 --> 00:05:34,360 hiding the identity of John Doe two. All of that 68 00:05:34,519 --> 00:05:42,160 leads to questions about why would the FBI be hiding 69 00:05:42,519 --> 00:05:46,759 the identity of this other player in the crime. 70 00:05:47,319 --> 00:05:50,639 Speaker 1: That is my next question. I think it's our listener's 71 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,160 next question too. And I think those who closely followed 72 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,959 the story, those who you know, remember it, but their memories, 73 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,079 of course, are a little bit for thirty years later. Understandably, 74 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,079 so it was obviously the you know, the biggest story 75 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,800 of nineteen ninety five. But why, indeed, why would the FBI, 76 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,839 after you know, pursuing John Doe number two, this massive 77 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,480 man hunting, then all of a sudden, almost seem like 78 00:06:19,519 --> 00:06:25,680 on a dime, that whole portion of the bombing and 79 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,000 the suspects involved just disappeared exactly. 80 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: And you know, when people. 81 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,959 Speaker 3: Are responding to my investigation, I'm hearing again and again 82 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,639 the reaction that, oh I always wondered about that, or 83 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:46,040 oh that didn't make sense at a. 84 00:06:45,959 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 2: Time, but the. 85 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 3: Prosecutors said, the jury agreed, the newspapers said it was 86 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:03,480 just Timothy McVeigh. So the question is why would that 87 00:07:03,879 --> 00:07:09,600 be covered up? And of course my investigation traveled longer 88 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:15,639 paths than we have time to explore, but basically my 89 00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:22,519 conclusion and the evidence that I have uncovered by following 90 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:30,480 the work of several others, this was not an act 91 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:38,040 of lone wolf terror. The public was misled and in fact, 92 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:48,480 the Oklahoma City bombing was manufactured terror manufactured by the 93 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:54,800 FBI in Washington, d c. Unwittingly, not to say anybody 94 00:07:55,399 --> 00:08:03,360 intended that disaster to happen, but aparently of an undercover 95 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,360 sting operation targeting right wing. 96 00:08:07,199 --> 00:08:10,839 Speaker 2: Extremists that went sideways. 97 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,519 Speaker 3: And tragically resulted in all of those deaths. It's clear 98 00:08:17,879 --> 00:08:21,879 that the FBI, or that the government knew in advance 99 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,279 that a bombing was coming, that Oklahoma City was on 100 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:29,879 a short list of targets. 101 00:08:30,759 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: The government knew. 102 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 3: This because it had The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and 103 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:46,000 Firearms had an informant embedded inside the bomb plot. Six 104 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:52,080 months before that blast occurred. She warned the government a 105 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:57,279 bombing was coming and her and her warnings were ignored. 106 00:08:58,039 --> 00:09:03,240 So the the short answer, Matt, is that the government 107 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:11,919 had great liability for what happened, and much of the 108 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:17,320 effort of the next thirty years has been to conceal 109 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:18,000 that fact. 110 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: Interesting, it gets curious, or and curious or as we 111 00:09:23,799 --> 00:09:28,799 move along low these thirty years later, I think you 112 00:09:28,919 --> 00:09:32,120 had questions. I think we all had questions and concerns 113 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,000 at the time, how could this possibly happen? But as 114 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:41,600 you note, this was the investigation from the FBI and 115 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:47,200 the domestic intelligence community was really focused on a neo 116 00:09:47,399 --> 00:09:49,080 Nazi plot. Is that correct? 117 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: Yes, a gang of bank robbers. An Aryan Republican army 118 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,240 was the name of this gang of bank robbers, and 119 00:10:00,519 --> 00:10:05,320 Timothy McVeigh was part of this plot. I don't mean 120 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,039 to suggest that he wasn't, but he wasn't the mastermind. 121 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:20,840 And eventually, great reporting by very independent minded reporters, while 122 00:10:20,879 --> 00:10:25,840 the mainstream news media was basically taking its story from 123 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,360 the Justice Department in Washington, DC, over a period of 124 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:37,840 years zeroed in on this Aryan Republican army and they 125 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:45,159 were planning an insurrection, and they committed a series of 126 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,039 twenty two bank robberies across the Midwest two hundred and 127 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:54,360 fifty thousand dollars take. This was in the early nineteen nineties, 128 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,600 roughly twice that much today. None of the money ever 129 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:06,120 ever recovered, by the way, but they they were. They 130 00:11:06,159 --> 00:11:11,399 became in the spotlight of the investigation that I've been 131 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,480 part of for the last twenty years. And at the 132 00:11:16,639 --> 00:11:23,440 end of all of this, an FBI whistleblower steps out 133 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,159 of the shadows, this is. 134 00:11:25,399 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: Roughly twenty eleven. 135 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:34,639 Speaker 3: To tell Jesse Trinidou, I really should introduce him Matt, 136 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:41,000 because he has carried the flag on this investigation very importantly. 137 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,679 But the FBI whistleblower stepped out of the shadows to 138 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:54,960 tell Jesse about the pat Con undercover pat con program 139 00:11:55,159 --> 00:11:58,840 that the FBI was running in the nineteen nineties, and 140 00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:02,960 he just he was a top spy in that program, 141 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:08,200 and he worked for the FBI undercover for eight years, 142 00:12:08,879 --> 00:12:16,960 and he revealed that the FBI had set up this 143 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:25,519 Aryan Republican Army as a front group deliberately to incite violence. 144 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:34,240 This spy became very disillusioned because he signed on to 145 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:40,399 prevent this extremist violence, and suddenly or not suddenly but 146 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:46,799 eventually became disillusioned because the real purpose of this program 147 00:12:46,919 --> 00:12:48,320 was to incite. 148 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,519 Speaker 2: The violence that he thought he was preventing. 149 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 3: So the investigation comes full circle with the revelation that indeed, 150 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:06,720 this Aryan Republican army that had been in the crosshairs 151 00:13:06,759 --> 00:13:11,159 of some of these independent reporters. 152 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:16,759 Speaker 2: Was the creation of the FBI. 153 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: There is another why. There are a lot of whys 154 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,399 in this story, and I think that's probably what has 155 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,840 drawn you to this story so much, all of the wise. Indeed, 156 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,080 and so the logical next why is why would the 157 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:45,279 FBI set up you know, this Aryan underground and force 158 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:52,480 it or lead it, manipulate it into you know, into violence. Again, 159 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,399 that's the question that the whistleblower asked, you know, why 160 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,480 are we inciting violence or helping to incite islands We're 161 00:14:00,519 --> 00:14:01,600 supposed to be stopping this. 162 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,799 Speaker 2: Yes, it is a good question, isn't it. 163 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: I think we see we see a pattern here. Most recently, 164 00:14:14,159 --> 00:14:19,159 you can look at the Governor Whitmer Kidnapp plot and 165 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:28,000 see a pattern of creating a situation that is allowed 166 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:34,639 to go to a certain point before before the capture 167 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:40,759 of the perpetrators and it's you know, this is a 168 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:47,639 huge creeping surveillance crisis. I think really one of the 169 00:14:47,639 --> 00:14:52,399 most important, you know, pillars of my work is to expose, 170 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:58,120 you know, what has happened here. Again and again we 171 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:04,039 see federal agencies cross the line from enforcement to entrapment. 172 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,039 And I think, to go back to the Oklahoma City bombing, 173 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,919 it was clearly, you know, the intention of law enforcement 174 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:14,320 to capture these. 175 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: Neo Nazis, but. 176 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 3: Once unleashed, they found a way to hit their target. 177 00:15:28,919 --> 00:15:31,399 Speaker 1: And why did they let it go so long? You 178 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:38,120 had mentioned the informant who was working inside begging FBI 179 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,200 officials to move on this, that this was happening in 180 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,960 real time and the danger was very imminent. Why did 181 00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:53,600 they Why didn't they move before this happened? 182 00:15:53,919 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 3: Well, she was reporting to the ATF, remember, and in 183 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:04,600 quite an extra ordinary turn of events, the ATF and 184 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:11,399 the FBI discovered in February of nineteen ninety five that 185 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:19,840 they both had undercover operations going targeting this same plot. So, 186 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,759 as you can imagine, you know, there was inner agency 187 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,879 you know, fighting that went on, and the FBI came 188 00:16:28,919 --> 00:16:33,120 out in February. So this is just a couple of 189 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:38,679 months before the bombing, they were the last agency standing 190 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:45,519 surveilling this plot. And as to how and why the 191 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:50,279 next couple of months unfolded the way they did, you know, 192 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,000 that remains an open question. 193 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,639 Speaker 2: There are some very strong evidence that. 194 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 3: My book explores, my book Blowback Explorers, that the FBI 195 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:08,880 was was actively surveilling. They definitely had Timothy McVeigh under 196 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:17,000 surveillance in UH six months before the bombing, and some 197 00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:22,279 of these other UH members of the Aryan Republican Army 198 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,839 in that in that orbit were also under surveillance. So 199 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:30,759 there was an effort to, you know, to close in, 200 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,319 but obviously it failed. 201 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 4: The Federal Reserve Offices in DC are getting an extreme 202 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,559 Soviet makeover. The watched Out on Wall Street podcast with 203 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,839 Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between 204 00:17:46,839 --> 00:17:48,400 politics and the economy and how it. 205 00:17:48,319 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 2: Affects your wallet. 206 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:52,079 Speaker 4: The Federal Reserve Offices are getting a two point five 207 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,440 billion dollar renovation. For perspective, Jerry Jones built Cowboys Stadium 208 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,119 for one point one five billion. Whether it's happening in 209 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,400 DC or Donald it's affecting you financially, be informed. Check 210 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,839 out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Christoma Cowski 211 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,400 on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 212 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: It failed quite dramatically, of course, and we know what 213 00:18:14,759 --> 00:18:19,799 that failure ultimately meant to the people of Oklahoma City, 214 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:26,799 the lives loss, the devastation it you know, as this 215 00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:34,119 explosion takes place and the fallout, you have Timothy McVeagh 216 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:41,279 apprehended by what we're told is an alert law enforcement official, 217 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:50,359 local law enforcement official within Oklahoma's legal or police system. 218 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:56,680 Within what forty minutes of Timothy McVeigh getting into his 219 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,400 getaway vehicle, they pick him up. Is that Is that 220 00:19:01,039 --> 00:19:06,640 any coincidence? Was that just dumb luck? Or as you say, 221 00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:09,680 they had been the FBI had been surveilling this guy 222 00:19:09,759 --> 00:19:13,920 for six months, did they Were they working with local 223 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,279 law enforcement at that front. 224 00:19:16,079 --> 00:19:19,559 Speaker 3: It's a very good question. It's really hard, you know. 225 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,920 And here we learn that Timothy McVay was arrested because 226 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,839 he didn't have a license. 227 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 2: Plate on his vehicle. And what a lot of people point. 228 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 3: To as the real the head scratcher in this whole 229 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:43,680 scenario is that it's hard to imagine that a criminal 230 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,880 who has just killed one hundred and sixty eight people 231 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:56,000 and is armed, you know, with a weapon that's got 232 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:05,160 you know, why doesn't he shoot the highway patrolman who 233 00:20:05,599 --> 00:20:06,240 arrests him? 234 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:07,799 Speaker 2: Well, you know it. 235 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,839 Speaker 3: You know again, that's just one of those questions that 236 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,799 doesn't have an answer yet. 237 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like he suddenly his morals clicked on 238 00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:21,279 right at this front. I mean, as you say, he 239 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,720 just he just murdered in cold blood one hundred and 240 00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:30,279 sixty eight people. You would think he is fleeing the scene. 241 00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:33,839 He is desperate to leave the area. He thinks that 242 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,799 he's walking away unnoticed, but obviously he's on high alert, 243 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,839 and yet they apprehend him very easily. Now there is, 244 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,200 as you mentioned before, we'll get back to that in 245 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,000 just a moment, this John Doe two character that became 246 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,440 such a focal point of this investigation until the narrative 247 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:58,200 of course shifted. But there were other known obviously accomplices 248 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:05,559 or people involved in including Terry Nichols, who, unlike Timothy McVeigh, 249 00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:10,559 you know, was offered a life sentence as opposed to McVeigh, 250 00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:13,680 who was executed what in two thousand and one if 251 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:18,559 I remember correctly, correct, Yeah, And then a couple of 252 00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:22,440 other individuals who are involved and actually end up being 253 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:29,720 convicted and doing prison time. What is their connection once again, 254 00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:35,359 and what did the FBI focus on in terms of 255 00:21:35,519 --> 00:21:38,000 the you know these individuals. 256 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:45,279 Speaker 3: Well, Terry Nichols, I'm glad you raise him because he was, 257 00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:52,000 of course the convicted co conspirator and is serving life 258 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:59,160 in prison in the supermax in Colorado. I am the 259 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:05,519 only journal ever to interview Terry Nichols face to face. 260 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:07,039 Speaker 2: I did so. 261 00:22:09,839 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 3: With Jesse Trinidou, the attorney who has really. 262 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 2: Led this investigation. Let me just. 263 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:23,759 Speaker 3: Quickly, you know, double click on who Jesse Trinido is. 264 00:22:24,519 --> 00:22:32,839 He believes that the FBI murdered his brother, who was 265 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:40,400 a prisoner in Oklahoma City, four months after the bombing. Actually, 266 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:47,319 he was moved to Oklahoma City inexplicably since he was 267 00:22:47,559 --> 00:22:51,799 just awaiting a parole violation hearing in southern California. 268 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,519 Speaker 2: His name is Kenneth Trinidou. 269 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: Four months after the bombing, three days after his sudden 270 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:06,599 move to Oklahoma City, he was found brutally tortured and 271 00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:15,799 murdered in his suicide proof cell in the federal facility 272 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:22,799 in Oklahoma City. And it was clearly a prison cover up. 273 00:23:24,759 --> 00:23:29,440 Kenneth Trinido was a. This is what Jesse would later 274 00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:33,160 find out and what would lead Jesse and me to 275 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:42,480 interview Terry Nichols, among other clues. Kenneth trinido was a 276 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:49,279 dead ringer look alike for the FBI's wanted poster for 277 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,680 John Doe two, the stocky. 278 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 2: Well built. 279 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 3: Accomplice in the bomb truck with Timothy McVay that the 280 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:07,200 the FBI was actively seeking. In June of nineteen ninety five, 281 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,119 just a couple of months after the bombing, when they 282 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:17,200 arrested Kenneth Trinidau in southern California on an old parole violation. 283 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:23,640 Nobody was even looking for him for years, so Jesse 284 00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:30,039 Trinidou became He's devoted the last thirty years of his 285 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,680 life to getting justice for his brother, who didn't kill himself, 286 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:43,559 was murdered, and incredibly eventually, in two thousand and one, 287 00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:52,359 Timothy McVeigh on death row sent Jesse a message saying. 288 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to I want to tell you what happened 289 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:54,839 to your brother. 290 00:24:55,839 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 3: The FBI mistook him for Richard Lee Guthrie. Guthrie was 291 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,680 the leader of the Aryan Republican Army gang who was 292 00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:12,079 now in the crosshairs of the independent and reporters who 293 00:25:12,079 --> 00:25:20,440 were investigating the story. So the work Jesse's work has 294 00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:28,279 been remarkable. He's led landmark Foyer investigations and demands and 295 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,519 a trial that I'll tell you a little bit about. 296 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,319 But in search of those leads and in search of 297 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:44,880 basically informational fuel for these Foyer actions, Jesse enlisted me 298 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:51,720 to go into maximum security prisons where journalists were not 299 00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:56,079 allowed to go because of total media lockdowns. That is 300 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:02,160 how I came to interview try Nichols face to face 301 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:10,000 in two thousand and seven. And in that interview what 302 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,680 was There were several remarkable disclosures, but the one that's 303 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:24,119 really mind boggling is that Terry Nichols claimed that Timothy 304 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:31,039 McVeigh operated in the Oklahoma City bombing as an undercover operative, 305 00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:36,200 and that this had slipped out, you know, in there 306 00:26:36,759 --> 00:26:43,480 in the months prior to the bombing, that this revelation 307 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,839 had slipped out by you know, Timothy mcveay let it slip. 308 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 2: That's what Terry Nichols said. 309 00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:55,559 Speaker 3: So it's it was an incredible claim, one that has 310 00:26:55,799 --> 00:27:00,880 some support independently of Terry Nichols, which of course you 311 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:07,319 have to seek when you're talking to a convicted, you know, 312 00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:13,359 co conspirator in this crime, but it does have some corroboration. 313 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:21,359 Perhaps most remarkably, Timothy McVeigh told a version of this 314 00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:27,000 story to his very first lawyers, public defenders, who quickly 315 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:32,519 exited the case because, you know, they had so many 316 00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:38,039 friends who had been injured or in the bombing. 317 00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:41,799 Speaker 2: But McVeigh told the story that he. 318 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:49,279 Speaker 3: Had been undercover and that he was actually surprised at 319 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,240 the degree of damage done by this bomb, suggesting that 320 00:27:54,599 --> 00:27:59,599 you know, there was again more, much more behind this plot. 321 00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: Then Timothy mcveain knew. 322 00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: Wild stuff, absolutely wild stuff. Our guest today is Margaret Roberts, 323 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,720 Award winning journalist, former news director of America's Most Wanted, 324 00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:16,920 and author of the new book Blowback, The Untold story 325 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:22,640 of the FBI and the Oklahoma City Bombing. It must 326 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,119 have been just amazing to hear this from Terry Nichols. 327 00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:29,039 But correct me if I'm wrong. Terry Nichols was the 328 00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:32,119 guy behind the bomb or the production of it? Was 329 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:32,400 he not? 330 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 3: Nichols was in all versions of this story the help 331 00:28:40,119 --> 00:28:41,079 made Matt. 332 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: He didn't. 333 00:28:43,559 --> 00:28:47,559 Speaker 3: He didn't really have bomb making expertise. 334 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: He talked about that in prison. For those who who. 335 00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 3: Wonder, I mean, and I'm certainly one of them. I 336 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,240 wish I could say I sized him up. I know 337 00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:08,640 what makes Terry Nichols tick, But honestly, he's an enigma, 338 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:20,880 an almost frail man who seemed to be torn, torn 339 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,799 by guilt really beyond I would have to say anything 340 00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:29,519 that he's admitted to. So I think Terry Nichols is 341 00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:34,559 someone who has more of a story to tell than 342 00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:35,119 he's told. 343 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 2: I mean, that's why we went to interview him. 344 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:48,839 Speaker 3: And in that interview, remarkably, he turned over hundreds of 345 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:54,000 pages of documents and evidence of a dossier that he 346 00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:58,480 had compiled over the previous ten years. Much of it 347 00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:05,319 went to point to this other character. To your question, Matt, 348 00:30:05,359 --> 00:30:10,880 about the others involved. This other character, the gun dealer 349 00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:16,160 Roger Moore, who in all these bombing prosecutions was portrayed 350 00:30:16,319 --> 00:30:24,240 as the victim of this robbery by Nichols and McVeigh. 351 00:30:24,519 --> 00:30:33,079 And Nichols admitted to the robbery, but Nichols also wanted 352 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:41,319 us to know and believe, and actually he wanted to 353 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:47,640 to really indict Roger Moore. In Terry Nichols claims Moore 354 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:56,799 was a government provocateur, an undercover operative who actually supplied 355 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:04,559 explosives that were used in the bomb. And nichols claim 356 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:12,079 is that Roger Moore was very much a part of 357 00:31:12,119 --> 00:31:16,799 this and that the government was actively. 358 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: Protecting him. 359 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 3: Nichols told an incredible story about being approached by a 360 00:31:29,519 --> 00:31:35,200 third party attorney while Nichols was awaiting his trial, his 361 00:31:35,359 --> 00:31:40,559 state trial in Oklahoma. This attorney came to visit him 362 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:47,000 in jail and make an off the record proffer of 363 00:31:47,039 --> 00:31:52,039 a deal, which he said came directly from the Department 364 00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:57,200 of Justice in Washington, to take the death penalty off 365 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:03,279 the table for Terry Nichols. He would assist on a 366 00:32:03,319 --> 00:32:08,119 list of three items, one of which was to locate 367 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,680 this box of explosives that he had taken in that 368 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:21,119 robbery from Roger Moore. And Terry Nichols said he was 369 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:27,839 he was glad, he wanted actually Roger Moore to take 370 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,319 some responsibility for what had happened. 371 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,279 Speaker 2: And the attorney. 372 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: Who was there, who said he represented the Department of 373 00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:42,200 Justice in Washington, said, oh, no, we're you know, this. 374 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:43,519 Speaker 2: Is not about a prosecution. 375 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,039 Speaker 3: I'm not quoting him, but the verbatim quote from Nichols 376 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,400 was that this attorney told him Roger Moore was quote 377 00:32:53,519 --> 00:33:01,920 unquote untouchable. So you can see the pattern here. Nichols 378 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:10,960 investigated Roger Moore from his prison cell in Colorado far 379 00:33:11,079 --> 00:33:17,920 more aggressively than anybody looked at Roger Moore as anything 380 00:33:18,039 --> 00:33:24,519 but a victim who to assist the prosecution in the 381 00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:25,839 bombing trials. 382 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,759 Speaker 1: How often have we seen it that some of the 383 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:35,720 people in these kinds of high profile cases that you know, 384 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,440 there is this notion of victimhood around them, and then 385 00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:45,440 you find out later that, well, there are other circumstances involved. 386 00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:51,200 So basically what we have here is we have the 387 00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:56,400 people who are said to be the lone wolves orchestrating 388 00:33:56,839 --> 00:34:03,279 this domestic terrorist of they're actually on the payroll of 389 00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:08,920 the FBI. You have an FBI that is trying to 390 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,119 stir up the area nation so eventually they can make 391 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:16,639 some key arrest of some major figures. At the same time, 392 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,920 they're inciting violence. According to your sources and according to 393 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:29,159 some of the documents that you turned over, the whistleblowers involved. 394 00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:28,159 Speaker 4: And. 395 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: They totally miss this seminal moment where you have the explosion. 396 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,599 They could have intervened much sooner. Now, of course, with 397 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:51,079 that those allegations in front, you have the FBI basically 398 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:56,000 telling a version of a story in your estimation, and 399 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,559 you're reporting that doesn't ring true. 400 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 2: That's right, That's absolutely right. 401 00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 3: This was not just a tragedy, a grave tragedy in 402 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,679 Oklahoma City in nineteen ninety five. It was a failure 403 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,559 of the truth the last and the government knew it 404 00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:26,440 and knows it. May I just carry out the thread 405 00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:29,840 because it kind of finishes the arc mat of the 406 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,840 surveillance video tapes. 407 00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:34,679 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, because. 408 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 3: When you think about this as a cover up, the 409 00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:52,400 video tapes would show because they were described in I 410 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:59,480 mean Oklahoma City News did a reenactment based on people 411 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:05,559 who had seen some of this video, and the videotapes 412 00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:12,440 were described as well. They would show the two McVeigh 413 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,880 and John Doe two getting out of the rider truck 414 00:36:18,119 --> 00:36:24,639 and very well might identify John Doe two who was he? 415 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 2: And when you think. 416 00:36:28,599 --> 00:36:34,079 Speaker 3: About the effort, because the FBI continues to fight this 417 00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:38,880 or resist I should say this foil lawsuit that Jesse 418 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:48,239 Trinado filed in two thousand and nine, When you follow. 419 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 2: That out, you see that this. 420 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 3: That there may be the presence of federal undercover operative 421 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:06,159 in that videotape, whether it be John Doe two who 422 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,079 got out of the truck, or others on the scene 423 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:16,760 in the shot, or even perhaps an idea or theory 424 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:23,519 that Jesse Trinidou developed after the whistleblower came forward, After 425 00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:29,119 John Matthews, the FBI whistleblower came forward and said that 426 00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:37,880 this pat con operation videotaped everything, raising the possibility that 427 00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:42,760 Timothy McVay, who we know had been under surveillance months before, 428 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:49,039 may have been under surveillance that day. This may have 429 00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:53,320 been videotape produced by that program. 430 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,679 Speaker 2: So you can see. 431 00:37:58,159 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 3: There's something about that video tape that is so compelling 432 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,000 that it had to be hidden for these thirty years. 433 00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 2: And where this all leads in the story. 434 00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 3: Is that after John Matthews, the FBI informant, came out 435 00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:24,960 of the shadows and told his story to Jesse Trinidou, 436 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:32,199 he agreed to be Jesse's star witness in the Foyer 437 00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:39,639 trial in twenty fourteen to force the release of those videotapes, 438 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:47,239 and on on the eve of his testimony, John Matthews 439 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,599 pulled out of the trial and told Jesse that he 440 00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:57,880 had been pressured by the FBI not to testify, and 441 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:03,800 his quote, almost to plea, was that he didn't want 442 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:09,239 to be just another VET living under a bridge. 443 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: He was a marine. 444 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 3: He feared he was going to lose his disability, his 445 00:39:14,679 --> 00:39:22,039 medical benefits, and that was and he was the star 446 00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:26,960 witness as to what the FBI's motivation might have been 447 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,159 to hide those videotapes. 448 00:39:30,679 --> 00:39:31,199 Speaker 2: All of that. 449 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 3: Matt has now been in limbo for eleven years since 450 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:45,199 Jesse Trinidou brought formal witness tampering charges against the Department 451 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,519 of Justice and the court ordered a special Master to 452 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:56,039 investigate the videotapes. Trial is fully litigated and ready for 453 00:39:56,119 --> 00:40:02,639 the judge's decision, but it has to wait for this 454 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:12,960 prolonged witness tampering action that happened in twenty fourteen. So 455 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,719 the cost of all of this, as. 456 00:40:18,559 --> 00:40:20,639 Speaker 2: You can see, from. 457 00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 3: The Oklahoma City bombing onto the Boston bombing onto Jeffrey 458 00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:37,320 Epstein January sixth, and even as you mentioned Russian collusion, 459 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:49,079 this spreading surveillance crisis that we are experiencing, somewhat silent 460 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,440 as a matter of fact, is partly the result of 461 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,119 this bottling up of this story and others. 462 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: Indeed, and we'll close with that in just a moment, 463 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,800 but this is what the FBI says according to their website, 464 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,639 the bombing was quickly solved, but the investigation turned out 465 00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:13,880 to be one of the most exhaustive in FBI history. 466 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,880 No stone was left unturned to make sure every clue 467 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:23,760 was found in all the culprits identified. I don't believe 468 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,079 that you are suggesting in your research, in the many, 469 00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:30,519 many hours that you have put into your investigative work, 470 00:41:31,079 --> 00:41:37,880 that the person in Timothy McVeigh, who was convicted of 471 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,960 these heinous crimes, was not guilty of these heinous crimes. 472 00:41:42,159 --> 00:41:46,719 Terry Nichols was not guilty of assisting, and forty a 473 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,519 the others not guilty. It's that there are a lot 474 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:59,280 of other guilty people in this story, perhaps, as you 475 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,440 note in the FBI itself, that should be sitting in prison. 476 00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, it was. 477 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 3: Neo Nazi terror suspects walked free, the bombing victims were 478 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,440 denied justice, and the American public was kept in the dark. 479 00:42:28,519 --> 00:42:32,199 Speaker 1: And thirty years later, this is where we stand. So 480 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,719 the final question is the implications of that and the 481 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:42,639 possibility we've seen within the Trump administration of releasing some 482 00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:47,719 very key documents associated with a lot of different things 483 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,239 we've been talking about for many years, the JFK assassination, 484 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:57,480 the Bobby Kennedy assassination, MLK, what we've talked about recently 485 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:03,360 with the deep state, the FBI and the CIA, the 486 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:10,239 intelligence community involved in the Russian collusion hoax that we've 487 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:15,119 reported on quite a bit at the Federalist. Do you 488 00:43:15,679 --> 00:43:20,920 have hope now and have you made inquiries into the FBI, 489 00:43:21,079 --> 00:43:24,079 into the Department of Justice to release this information that's 490 00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:25,239 been blocked for so long. 491 00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:27,679 Speaker 2: I do have hope, Matt. 492 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 3: I do think there's just been a remarkable sea change here. 493 00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:40,199 Jesse Trinidou has a letter on Attorney General Bondi's desk 494 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:46,239 as of March of this year, asking her to stand 495 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:56,920 down from the Justice Department opposition to unseiling the whistleblower's 496 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:04,639 deposition in the surveillance tapes case. The reason that's so 497 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:11,239 important is although it's sealed document, so I can't represent 498 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:16,400 what's in it, but knowing what John the story John 499 00:44:16,519 --> 00:44:20,039 Matthews told to Jesse and I report on this in 500 00:44:21,039 --> 00:44:27,920 one of the last chapters of my book Blowback, that 501 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:34,519 that document would lay out the anatomy of this pat 502 00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:40,559 con program, which John Matthews has described, you know, as 503 00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:49,360 a sprawling, rogue infiltration program that you know, cross the 504 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:54,440 line into you know, criminal activity. And no one has 505 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,400 an idea, as John Matthews said when he called Jesse, 506 00:44:57,639 --> 00:45:01,199 you know, you have no idea how big or ugly 507 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:07,519 this thing is. So the letter is on the Attorney 508 00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:11,320 General's desk. She obviously has quite a lot of business 509 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:12,079 on her desk. 510 00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 2: But I also would say, so I do have. 511 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 3: Hope, matt and I have hope that the federal judge 512 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:31,719 who's got the surveillance tapes case will soon rule to 513 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:37,079 let the American public see that video tape, which it 514 00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:42,880 has been denied it for thirty years. And then I 515 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:48,280 just would lastly say, so much of my book I 516 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:53,880 think portrays of failure of the institutions that we rely on, 517 00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:57,599 from the FBI to the. 518 00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 2: DOJ, to our news media. 519 00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:09,639 Speaker 3: And yet the story advances because of the personal individual 520 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:16,679 courage of some people that were willing to just fight 521 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,800 for the truth, whistleblowers who took a risk, and there 522 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,840 were several in this story journalists who who couldn't find 523 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:32,559 a home for their reporting, and eventually or you know, 524 00:46:32,639 --> 00:46:38,519 eventually came together and encircled Jesse Trinado with their as 525 00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:46,000 a remarkable brain trust. And I think and some of 526 00:46:46,039 --> 00:46:54,199 the victims that continue to stick up for what they believe, 527 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,119 they're entitled to know what really happened. 528 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,360 Speaker 1: Indeed, you are one of those courageous people, one of 529 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,360 those courageous reporters. You've been doing this for a long time. 530 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,480 It is so critical thirty years later now that Americans 531 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,760 know the full truth. But more than anything, those victims, 532 00:47:19,159 --> 00:47:23,159 the one hundred and sixty eight lives lost and the 533 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:30,480 untold people, number of people who were impacted by that bombing. 534 00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:32,880 You know, we're talking about one hundred and sixty eight 535 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:38,039 lives lost, many hundreds more injured, some of them very badly. 536 00:47:38,559 --> 00:47:46,679 Oklahoma City traumatized, the country traumatized. And if this indeed 537 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,719 was the work of the people that we are, the 538 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,920 law enforcers, we are supposed to count on to uphold 539 00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:56,800 the law, and they failed in that mission. We need 540 00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,119 to know more than ever, thanks to my guess, yes 541 00:48:00,159 --> 00:48:05,440 today Margaret Roberts Award winning journalist, former news director of 542 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:10,320 America's most wanted and author of the compelling new book Blowback, 543 00:48:10,519 --> 00:48:14,440 the untold story of the FBI and the Oklahoma City bombing. 544 00:48:15,079 --> 00:48:17,800 You've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. 545 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,800 I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll 546 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,840 be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of 547 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,880 freedom and anxious for the friend. Light the fire. 548 00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 4: You plase the flys in the bs that you bomb 549 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 2: Today.