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<v Speaker 3>By Billy Cunningham. The great American.

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<v Speaker 1>Joining us now is Connie Pillach, the Helmbi County prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 1>And Connie Pillach welcome again to the Bill Cunningham Show.

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<v Speaker 1>And before we talk about Hinton, which you know is

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<v Speaker 1>another big story. In my interview with Sarah, we talked.

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<v Speaker 1>She talked about how one murder case is treated differently

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<v Speaker 1>than the other, how her husband's murder Patrick was treated

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<v Speaker 1>differently than the murder of a police officer. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>articulate as to why your office calls the death penalty

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<v Speaker 1>to be issued in one case and not the other.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thanks so much for having me again, Bill, I

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<v Speaker 2>really appreciate you including me and letting me talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the stuff that's going on in our office. I think

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<v Speaker 2>I put all the information about the reason for the

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<v Speaker 2>death penalty and the deputy who was slain case, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's of course very specific provisions of law that allow

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<v Speaker 2>for that. But for the for Miss Henting, Miss Henninger's

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<v Speaker 2>call a case of her husband, I just got to

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<v Speaker 2>let that play out in the courts.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, as far as h as far as that

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<v Speaker 1>is it a policy decision or this is something I've

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<v Speaker 1>read some commentary on social media that many times the

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<v Speaker 1>system values the life of a police officer as we

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<v Speaker 1>should above the life of may I use the term civilian.

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<v Speaker 1>And when the police officer is murdered, you're murdering not

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<v Speaker 1>just a person, but the representative of us. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>a very serious matter. Did that play into it that

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<v Speaker 1>some social media might say, you know, she'll go after

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<v Speaker 1>a cop killer more than she'll go after just a murder.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that part of it?

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<v Speaker 2>No, No, there's no policy like that. These are done

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<v Speaker 2>by a case by case basis and also in accordance

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<v Speaker 2>with the law and what the law allows or requires

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<v Speaker 2>me to do.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, let's move on to the hinting matter.

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<v Speaker 1>You had an extensive news conference yesterday and as far

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<v Speaker 1>as Rodney Hinton Junior and of course his murder, and

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<v Speaker 1>then also you had the non indictment of the police

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<v Speaker 1>officer who killed Ryan Hinton. What were the two or

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<v Speaker 1>three key facts in your mind, Connie Pillage, is about

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<v Speaker 1>why you did not indict the police officer. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>tell the American people two or three good reasons you

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<v Speaker 1>decided not to do it?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and you know, and of course it was a

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<v Speaker 2>very extensive press conference yesterday. But look, we looked at,

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<v Speaker 2>first of all, what the law requires, and the United

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<v Speaker 2>States Supreme Courts gives a very specific guidance that have

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<v Speaker 2>been refined over the last bunch of decades how we

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<v Speaker 2>make these decisions. And one of the big things was

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<v Speaker 2>that we have to view this evidence in the eyes

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<v Speaker 2>of what one would call a reasonable officer at the scene,

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<v Speaker 2>in his shoes, through his eyes, and with the knowledge

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<v Speaker 2>that would have been known at the time. The second

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<v Speaker 2>thing is when we looked through the body camped footage,

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<v Speaker 2>we saw the scene, we saw the things that transpired,

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<v Speaker 2>We heard one of the officers alert everybody there that

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<v Speaker 2>there was a gun. And the third thing were the

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<v Speaker 2>statements of the witnesses. The Cincinnati Police interviewed the witnesses

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<v Speaker 2>that were there, and the interviewed some of the passengers

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<v Speaker 2>of the vehicle they were also witnesses to So those

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<v Speaker 2>are three things combined that led me to make that decision.

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<v Speaker 1>Connie kellych prosecutor, you made the statement yesterday that the

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<v Speaker 1>officer officer A and it's going to be said, his

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<v Speaker 1>name's going to be revealed soon by civil lawsuits by

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<v Speaker 1>Fanon Rucker.

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<v Speaker 3>But nonetheless, I'll call him.

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<v Speaker 1>Officer A perceived the gun was pointed at him when

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<v Speaker 1>he fired the shots. The video, I think is unclear

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<v Speaker 1>one way or another. I've watched it probably ten times.

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<v Speaker 1>You probably have watched it one hundred times.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you clearly.

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<v Speaker 1>See the gun of Ryan Hinton, pointed out the police officer.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the thing we have to look at is what

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<v Speaker 2>the law requires me to study, and that is that

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<v Speaker 2>we have to put our review into the position of

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<v Speaker 2>a reasonable officer at the scene and standing in the

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<v Speaker 2>officer's shoes, running around the side of that dumpster, which

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<v Speaker 2>is five feet wide, and seeing the young man running

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<v Speaker 2>at him. The officer stated that he saw the weapon

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<v Speaker 2>and he had about a half a second to make

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<v Speaker 2>a decision. He was he believed it was The Officer

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<v Speaker 2>A believed the gun was in Rodney Hinton's hand and

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<v Speaker 2>that it was pointing at him in what we call

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<v Speaker 2>a bladed stance, and that was certainly he was put

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<v Speaker 2>on the alert by one of the other officers who yelled, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>this guy's got a gun. He's got a gun. And

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<v Speaker 2>we also had that corroborated by one of the witnesses

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<v Speaker 2>in the in the in the vehicle and so when

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<v Speaker 2>you have these kinds of events within literally for seconds,

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<v Speaker 2>you can look at a body worn camera that has

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<v Speaker 2>a wide angle lens and therefore distorts the spatial details

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<v Speaker 2>of the scene. But you also have to understand there's

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<v Speaker 2>more than body worn camera. There's there's what the officer

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<v Speaker 2>believed he saw, what the other officer yelled about, there

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<v Speaker 2>being a gun. When these all things have to be

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<v Speaker 2>taken in total, you can't just look at one simple thing,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what the Supreme Court tells us. You cannot

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<v Speaker 2>look at one item. You got to look at all

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<v Speaker 2>the circumstances.

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<v Speaker 1>And in the officer's mind, he believed, having heard he's

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<v Speaker 1>got a gun. Gun, gun, gun, and he did not

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<v Speaker 1>pull out his service weapon until after a fellow officer

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<v Speaker 1>said he had a gun.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that correct?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, yes, that's correct, and we have we have video

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<v Speaker 2>evidence of that.

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<v Speaker 1>As far as the actual shots themselves, I had on

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<v Speaker 1>Michael Wright, who's with the Cochrane Law firm. He's a

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<v Speaker 1>he's a lawyer, along with Anon Rucker. Each of them

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<v Speaker 1>have said that some young man, a teenager, should not

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<v Speaker 1>be shot for stealing a car. And I'm thinking, well,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a nice argument. In a closing statement. But that's

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<v Speaker 1>not factually accurate. But how would you respond to some

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<v Speaker 1>who say, like an On Rucker and Michael Wright, that

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<v Speaker 1>this particular of Ryan Hinton was killed because he was

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<v Speaker 1>stealing a car? Is that factually accurate?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's no, it's not. But the whole situation's tragic. Bill.

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<v Speaker 2>You know that some kid going down this path and

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<v Speaker 2>getting having a gun, and it's all as the police

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<v Speaker 2>chief said, when you mess around with stolen guns, a

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<v Speaker 2>tragedy happens, and that's what happened here.

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<v Speaker 1>How relevant were the photos? I thought the photos you

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<v Speaker 1>displayed yesterday were just It doesn't mean he's guilty or

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<v Speaker 1>not guilty, but to have a at that point, I

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<v Speaker 1>think he was seventeen years old. He turned eighteen a

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<v Speaker 1>few days before he was killed. That he had in

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<v Speaker 1>possession the actual gun found at the scene. Isn't that

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<v Speaker 1>a rather important fact that we knew he had possession

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<v Speaker 1>of the gun, He had possession of the gun a

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<v Speaker 1>few days before, and the same gun was found at

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<v Speaker 1>the scene.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we did include that in the press conference, just

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<v Speaker 2>to show that this was his gun, because that's what

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<v Speaker 2>we found at the scene.

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<v Speaker 1>One other quar rush has risen from the other side,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is. The day after the shooting, Chief of

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<v Speaker 1>Police Teresa Thiji held a news conference and said that

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<v Speaker 1>in this case, the officer shot mister Hinton, Ryan Hinton

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<v Speaker 1>in the chest and the bullet came out the back

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<v Speaker 1>as if they were facing each other. Number one, did

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<v Speaker 1>you hear what you said at the news conference? Number two?

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<v Speaker 1>Is that factually inaccurate?

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't at the news conference, but I am aware

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<v Speaker 2>of the coroner's report that showed the bullet entered in

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<v Speaker 2>the side of the left side of his chest and

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<v Speaker 2>exited the front of the chest. That's right, That's what

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<v Speaker 2>we have. Those are the facts we rely on in

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<v Speaker 2>this review.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you discussed this the chief of police THEIGI to say, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>wait a minute, twenty four hours after this event kind

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<v Speaker 1>of quiet things down, do we know what the facts are?

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<v Speaker 3>Have you said that to her?

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<v Speaker 2>No? No, But I do think she's bound by the

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<v Speaker 2>collaborative agreement to have some sort of press conference within

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<v Speaker 2>around twenty four hours of any critical incident like that.

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<v Speaker 2>And I mean it's the chief is, as far as

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<v Speaker 2>I compell, is trying to do the best you can

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<v Speaker 2>and I can't tell her what to say as not

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<v Speaker 2>her lawyer.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, As far as the other three individuals involved in

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<v Speaker 1>this action, who as Jarell Austin and de Anthony Bullocks

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<v Speaker 1>and Sincere Grigsby, did you give consideration to the activities

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<v Speaker 1>that they engaged in? And by that I mean did

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<v Speaker 1>they kind of identify the gun as being used by

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<v Speaker 1>Ryan Hinton in the car? Did they say that was

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<v Speaker 1>Ryan Hinton's gun or is that someone else's gun?

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<v Speaker 2>I can't tell you what witness said that, but somebody

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<v Speaker 2>did see did describe Ryan's gun to us?

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<v Speaker 1>As far as the grandeury presentation, as you know that

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<v Speaker 1>you don't have to present the case the grand jury.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, you can not present it. There's one prosecutor

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<v Speaker 1>locally in Butler County, Mike Moser, who does present every

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<v Speaker 1>police shooting to a grand jury. Other prosecutors in Claremont, Warren,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know in Boone, Kenton, and Campbell they do

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<v Speaker 1>not present the case. Well, what is the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>determines whether or not County Pillage will present or not

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<v Speaker 1>present a police shooting to the grand jury in Hamley County.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, after our review, if I can't make a determined determination,

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<v Speaker 2>then I will have to present it to grand jury.

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<v Speaker 2>But in the four police involved shootings that we've had

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<v Speaker 2>since I became prosecutor on January sixth, I was able

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<v Speaker 2>to determine. I felt comfortable that I was doing the

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<v Speaker 2>right thing in accordance with the law, and was able

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<v Speaker 2>to make a decision.

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<v Speaker 1>You're not required by law to give it to the

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<v Speaker 1>grand jury. Is that fair to say? There was also

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<v Speaker 1>an interview conducted in which Fannon Rucker said that, among

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<v Speaker 1>other things, we don't know the officer's background who killed

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<v Speaker 1>Ryan Hinton. We know his jacket with the citizens Complaint

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<v Speaker 1>authority with internal investigations is not empty, so he's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of besmirching the character of officer. A did you take

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<v Speaker 1>into account the history of the police officer when you

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<v Speaker 1>decided not to cause his indictment.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I didn't think any of that was relevant.

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<v Speaker 3>As far as uh further investigation is this? Uh?

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<v Speaker 1>The matter is taken six weeks to get to get

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<v Speaker 1>to this point. As far as you're concern, is this

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<v Speaker 1>matter concluded relative to these officers? No other charges will

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<v Speaker 1>be fought against any officers involved in this shooting of

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<v Speaker 1>Ryan Hinton?

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<v Speaker 3>Is that correct?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 3>All right?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, thank you. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And one thing that's gonna happen is I think sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>the federal authorities may get involved in some of the

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<v Speaker 1>police shootings. It's quite unlikely in this case for all

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of reasons. But so far you've had four police shootings,

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<v Speaker 1>which is quite unusual, and in your first five months

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<v Speaker 1>in office. Uh, that's part of this part of the deal.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there any connection. I watched the news conference. One

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<v Speaker 1>of the reporters asked you, are these four events somehow

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<v Speaker 1>connected one to the other? Which I thought was kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a stupid question, by the way, because they're completely unconnected.

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<v Speaker 1>But if the message is sent by some that this

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<v Speaker 1>prosecutor is gonna is gonna lean on the side of

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<v Speaker 1>police when it comes to police shootings, I think that's incorrect.

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<v Speaker 1>Every case stands on his own completely. I mean, every

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<v Speaker 1>every factual situation is completely different. But for those who say,

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<v Speaker 1>our new new prosecutors got four of these, everyone's been absolved,

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<v Speaker 1>Nune's percented to the grand jury, what's your response to that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, look, I take these cases extremely seriously. Of the

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<v Speaker 2>four off turn VOB shootings we've had, I personally responded

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<v Speaker 2>to three of them and was able to look at

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<v Speaker 2>the scene myself, and they're all different. They were caused

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<v Speaker 2>by different people and under different circumstances. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>my job is to look at what happened, apply the

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<v Speaker 2>law as the State of Ohio and the United States

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<v Speaker 2>and the Supreme Court telled me to do, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>what happened. I can't tell you what will happen the

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<v Speaker 2>next time we have a critical incident like that, because

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know the fact of that yet.

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<v Speaker 1>No, every case is determined by facts, application of the law,

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<v Speaker 1>and none of the cases are conducted to each other.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, they're completely unconnected. Did you consult with other

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<v Speaker 1>prosecutors in the region about whether to proceed to indictment

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<v Speaker 1>or not? Was this crictly your decision? Did you talk

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<v Speaker 1>with with any of the other prosecutors in the county?

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<v Speaker 2>Are well? I am. I am a member of the

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<v Speaker 2>Ohio Prosecuting Attorneys Association, and all the members these are

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<v Speaker 2>all the elected prosecutors in the state. I serve on

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<v Speaker 2>four committees. So I have definitely been getting to know

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<v Speaker 2>my colleagues across the state and learn the things that

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<v Speaker 2>they've gone through. But what was most important to me

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<v Speaker 2>here was my senior leadership team who worked very closely.

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<v Speaker 2>They worked really hard to put that presentation together. I

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<v Speaker 2>when you saw all these photos, well those were one

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<v Speaker 2>one hundredth of a second stops still shots of the video.

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<v Speaker 2>They worked very hard to put that together for me

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<v Speaker 2>so I could explain everything and so we could make

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<v Speaker 2>a determination here. I based my decision on the scrutiny

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<v Speaker 2>they gave and their recommendation to me, then my own

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<v Speaker 2>review of what they've presented to me.

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<v Speaker 1>And a prosecutor, as you know, must only present cases

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<v Speaker 1>of the grand jury if they believe a crime has

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<v Speaker 1>been committed and they can get a conviction a trial.

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<v Speaker 1>And I assume the fact you did not convene a

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<v Speaker 1>grand jury to present the case in the case that

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<v Speaker 1>based upon six weeks of hundreds of hours of work,

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<v Speaker 1>split second videos down to pictures, forensic evidence. I think

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<v Speaker 1>the County corner has given you all the toxicology or

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<v Speaker 1>whatever that. But by the way, did the toxicology show

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<v Speaker 1>anything that Ryan hitting anything in his body or not?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Bill, I don't remember, but it wouldn't make

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<v Speaker 2>a difference in this case.

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<v Speaker 1>He could have been high as a kite. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>relevant to him being shot. All right, Well, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>Connie Pillage. Once again, We'll see what happens on the

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<v Speaker 1>next I've had you on each time there's been a

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<v Speaker 1>police shooting. I kind of hope there's no more police shootings.

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of hope they're in but you never know.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you. Thank you so much for getting with me.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate you happing me on.

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<v Speaker 3>Connie Pillage, Thank you very much. Thank you. All right,

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<v Speaker 3>let's continue with more.

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<v Speaker 1>There's the perspective of Connie Pillage, and I want to

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<v Speaker 1>support her decision in this case one thousand percent because

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<v Speaker 1>I understand there's money to be made by some lawyers

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<v Speaker 1>who are acting as if they're aggrieved and they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to go to the city of Cincinnati to seek money.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm referring specifically to Fanon Rucker and Michael Wright

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<v Speaker 1>of the Cochrane Law firm, and who knows what the

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<v Speaker 1>city's going to do down the road. If in this

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<v Speaker 1>case the city pays money, it's a slap in the

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<v Speaker 1>face of the police force, because in this case, if

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<v Speaker 1>this is not a justified shooting, then there can be

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<v Speaker 1>none in Hambleton County. And I want to compliment Connie

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<v Speaker 1>pillage in this case, and the other three for making

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<v Speaker 1>the right decisions. So let's continue with more. And whether

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<v Speaker 1>they can get money out of the city, that's likely.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm willing to bet you hot fut Sunday right now

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<v Speaker 1>than the next one to three years. They pay the

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<v Speaker 1>estate of Ryan Hitting some money. That's what the city

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<v Speaker 1>tends to do. But in this case it was completely

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<v Speaker 1>a justified police shooting. Let's continue with more. One twenty

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<v Speaker 1>five Homeo Reds playing tonight, we hope based upon the

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<v Speaker 1>weather A news radio seven hundred WLW