WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.279 Hello everyone, and welcome to another hacking leadership leadership author 2 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:07.240 podcast in our new series that we're doing. We're extremely excited. 3 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:10.199 We've had so many great interviews and great conversations with 4 00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:14.279 some amazing leaders who also happen to be leadership authors. 5 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:16.480 And as we've said, you know, Chris and I have 6 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:19.120 done a lot of put on top, put a lot 7 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.079 of time and effort and to make sure that we're 8 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:23.640 vetting some of our guests that we feel really great 9 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:26.480 about their content. So as always, we will ask you 10 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:29.480 to not only enjoy the show, but please click on 11 00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:33.240 the links in the podcast show notes, check out their content, 12 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.799 by their books, subscribe to their podcast and newsletters because 13 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:39.479 we're taking a lot of great inspiration from the content here. 14 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:43.000 And today we're extremely excited to talk to Phil Geldart, 15 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:45.439 the founder and CEO of Eagles Flight, which is a 16 00:00:45.479 --> 00:00:50.200 recognized authority in the areas of transforming organizational culture, leadership development, 17 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:53.840 and experiential training solutions. So again, these are all things 18 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:55.399 that speak to our heart and we just want to 19 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:56.200 say welcome to the show. 20 00:00:56.200 --> 00:00:58.600 Phil, Hey, Lorenzo, thank you Mouseful. 21 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:01.640 It's a lot, right, a lot, Hey, You've deserved it, though, 22 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:03.439 a lot of work that you've done here, which is 23 00:01:03.479 --> 00:01:06.840 absolutely amazing. We're going to spend today talking about Phil's 24 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:09.959 book here leading what matters most and what I will 25 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:14.680 tell you. I love this because this is a way 26 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:18.519 of talking about leadership that I have quite honestly not 27 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:21.480 seen in this type of a platform before. It's a 28 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:26.359 full book around leadership development through a story that's being explained, 29 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:30.959 and it's like a fiction work here. But the way 30 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.200 that it tracks in the book and the things that 31 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:38.040 are spoken about obviously come from real life experience. You 32 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:40.200 can just tell in reading it that these things really 33 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:42.599 hit home in some spaces there. But maybe Phil, can 34 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:43.840 you just talk to this a little bit about like 35 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:46.519 why this approach to this leadership book? 36 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:49.840 Yeah, great, Lorenzo, I'm happy to do that. Thanks a 37 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:52.680 lot for having me. I think there's a lot of 38 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:54.680 books on leadership, in fact that I've written a few 39 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:59.239 myself that are tend to be more like manuals or 40 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:03.439 case sets, and I feel that the real challenge if 41 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:06.000 you're trying to be a great leaders Okay, but what 42 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:09.879 do I do? Like in practice? I get the theory, 43 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:12.680 I get the you know, you've given me the recommendations, 44 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:15.719 and I know what other people do, but I honestly 45 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:18.680 feel that leaders wrestle with the day to day. But 46 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.840 what do I do differently? And so I thought trying 47 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:24.000 to put it into the context of a story, so 48 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:28.280 you could identify with the main character. You go, Okay, 49 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:30.719 I could do that, or I could do that. That's 50 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.280 not that complicated. So I chose that approach to try 51 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.000 to help the reader feel like they can implement it. 52 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:38.159 Does that makes sense? 53 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:40.800 Absolutely? No, I love it because I think that to 54 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:45.280 your point, a lot of times, as I consume you know, books, 55 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.759 audio books, media, ted talks, you know, whatever we might 56 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:53.560 have out there, sometimes it can feel very theoretical, and 57 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:57.080 as you're reading and consuming it, you're thinking about, well, 58 00:02:57.240 --> 00:02:59.479 how what does that do? How does that look? Does 59 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:01.960 that make sense to me? Versus a read like this, 60 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.039 which is like a story. And now I feel like 61 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:06.719 I'm a part of this journey and I'm asking the 62 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:08.960 same questions that the characters asking and I'm looking for 63 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.439 the same solutions, and it's just it was a very 64 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:15.240 different experience from a from from somebody who's consuming the content. 65 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:15.520 For me. 66 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:18.719 Yeah, well, let me give you an example. Right early 67 00:03:18.759 --> 00:03:25.000 in the book, Bridget, who's my ficational CEO, wants to 68 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:28.199 make a transformation and she chats with the consultant and 69 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.639 the consultant says, okay, well, how committed are you and 70 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:33.919 she I'm committed, he said, but how committed are you? 71 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:34.479 Really? 72 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:36.680 She said, what do you mean? And he begins to 73 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.439 say to her, well, you have to make sure your 74 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:41.680 executive team are on board, and she says, well what 75 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:44.080 does that mean? So then he says, well, if they're 76 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:45.400 not on board, you've got to be willing to let 77 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:48.960 them go. Let them go. So they have this dialogue, 78 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:51.800 and I feel, you know, very often we talk about, well, 79 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:54.800 the senior management needs to be committed to the outcome. 80 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:59.240 Everybody nods sagely, but they don't appreciate that to be 81 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:03.680 committed to an outcome to transform an organization is an 82 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:05.840 all or nothing commitment. You have to model it, you 83 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:07.560 have to be there front and center, you have to 84 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:10.960 use the language. And so in trying to explain that 85 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:15.080 to her, she begins to understand in practice what it 86 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:18.279 means to have senior management commitment. And then I'm hoping 87 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:20.879 that the reader would say, Okay, I can make a 88 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:24.079 decision for myself. How committed am I to this transformation? 89 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:27.879 So it allowed me to bring to life the real 90 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.519 practicalities of what it would take to make change. 91 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:33.600 Yeah, And I love that. And in a recent interview 92 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:36.839 you talked about this idea of like, hey, if I 93 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:38.920 mean asked to make a change, if I'm going to 94 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.040 have some trust established and making change, is my boss 95 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:44.800 doing this? Right? Is their boss doing this? And it 96 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:46.920 kind of goes all the way up that way. And 97 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.279 I love that how you broke that down, because that's 98 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:53.759 the important thing is like if you're if you're asking 99 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:57.120 people to go through a change, how are you working 100 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.399 yourself to the change curve? How are you as the 101 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.319 leader role modeling these types of behaviors? And then can 102 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.120 you honestly put your hand up and say that and 103 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:07.199 say like, no, no, I am doing the things that 104 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.360 I know I'm asking my people to do, and I'm 105 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:14.040 showing them that I'm flexible, that I'm learning agile. You know, 106 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:16.879 am I sharing with them maybe even my emotions or 107 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:19.439 my thoughts and going through this change as a means 108 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:22.079 of being transparent with my feelings so that they can 109 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.399 kind of align with me. So I love that you 110 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.560 kind of brought that up. Did that come from kind 111 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.120 of experience going into the book or is this something 112 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.199 that as you were writing the book you kind of 113 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:34.199 uncovered this nugget that you wanted to highlight. 114 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:37.959 No, I've known this for a long time. We've done 115 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:42.120 a lot of culture transformations, and I mean we, I 116 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:44.680 say we Eagle Flight the company that I v The 117 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:49.560 big issue is very often helping senior management understanding their 118 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:52.160 role in the journey. So I've had to go through 119 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.439 the discussions that consult mad with Bridget many times, and 120 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:58.759 I think, you know, you put your finger though on 121 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:02.040 a critical point. If I could just elaborate for a bit. 122 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:05.079 If I'm coming to work and I'm I'm working in 123 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:08.839 a warehouse and I'm moving the boxes. My supervisor is 124 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.040 maybe like three years older than me and had the 125 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:15.040 job before I did. But as far as I am concerned, 126 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.120 that supervisor is my leader and he represents the company 127 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.759 or she, I may never get to see the CEO 128 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:24.639 and the executives who are really committed to the transformation. 129 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:27.759 I look at my immediate boss. What is she doing 130 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:32.160 and what she does I do, so I model on her, 131 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:34.439 and if I'm having trouble, I look for her to 132 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.519 come and say, Okay, here's what you need to do differently, 133 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:38.879 So she's got to be there to coach me. So 134 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:42.560 this idea of the leader having to set the example 135 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.439 and to also be skilled to coach me to follow 136 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:50.560 that example puts huge pressure on the organization to then 137 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:55.519 train that supervisor. And I think that very often organizations 138 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:02.959 don't fully understand that your frontline leaders are generally not 139 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:05.800 trained to do this kind of thing. They're trained to 140 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.279 be good on process, they're good on policy, they're good 141 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:10.959 on dealing with customers, they deal with their functional area well. 142 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.240 But you have to start right at the most senior 143 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.600 level and say what do I want you to do 144 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.720 or do differently in order to demonstrate the behavior we 145 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:23.759 want everybody to do. And you've got to cascade that 146 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:26.560 all the way down and it's a lot of work. 147 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:29.759 But if you get it right, then you know that 148 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:34.000 every leader is actually able to model on their own leader, 149 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:36.759 and so you begin to see that behavior change. So 150 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.800 your point is critical. I'm just not sure most organizations 151 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:43.279 understand what it takes to do it. Yeah. 152 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:45.319 No, I love that because I've always believed in the 153 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.920 same thing as like the kind of the impact of 154 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.480 your day to day is really your experience at work 155 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:54.480 is really impacted by two levels above your boss and 156 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.759 your boss's boss. To your point, right, that is ninety 157 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:01.000 five percent of what you experience. So so if you 158 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.839 look at it that way, then they really become the 159 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:09.199 manifestation of the organization's values and structure and expectations, and 160 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:12.160 all these things come to life for that person in 161 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:15.439 those two levels of leadership. So that's extremely important. I 162 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.199 love that you highlight that and and you kind of 163 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.199 walk through that, and then I think, to your point, 164 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:22.959 it's like I think a lot of organizations and leaders 165 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.560 and organizations understand that concept and they would say, Phil, 166 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:29.120 one hundred percent, you're right. And then the next question 167 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:31.399 is how do I do it? And then and then 168 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.679 how do I build work systems where I can validate 169 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:36.480 that it's actually happening? 170 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:37.360 Right? 171 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:40.320 And I think what I liked about the book is 172 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:43.720 that there's kind of like this flow of not just 173 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:46.720 the here's the question, here's the answer, but then here's 174 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:50.120 the work. Oh, oh, here's here's the issue. Something else, 175 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.399 there's another thing that popped in here that that's a problem. 176 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:54.200 And then I love even like at the line where 177 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:55.679 it was like towards the end of the book and 178 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:58.679 you know, no spoiler alerts here, but but hey, hey 179 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.600 there's an issue and we're on top of it. And 180 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:04.440 I think her response is, I know you are you like, 181 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:07.000 we've gone through this full journey now where we've built 182 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:10.279 this element of confidence and capability at the same time, 183 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:13.720 which I think is so so apparent in there. But 184 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:17.440 I think also, as you've done this over the years, 185 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:20.480 and as you've discovered this as the thing, maybe what 186 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:22.879 is that first thing that you would say to a 187 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:26.320 leader who is trying to have the same journey that 188 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:27.240 you've got in the book here. 189 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:31.559 Yeah, I know this is not going to be your 190 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:36.399 typical answer, but the very most important thing is to 191 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.039 sit with the leadership, and I mean at every level 192 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:44.720 and say you have responsibility for the lives and careers 193 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:49.159 and performance of human beings. They are adults. They leave 194 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.919 your job and you know, they're on boards and committees 195 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:57.440 and they're raising families, and you are the one that 196 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.000 in their job life they look to you and you 197 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:05.399 have this tremendous potential that you can lead and nurture. 198 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.240 And I try to help leaders understand that Leadership is 199 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:13.840 begins with valuing the potential in every human being. If 200 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:16.840 you simply treat the person for all, right, I pay 201 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:18.879 them to do this job, and they do the job. 202 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:21.240 Even if they do it well, you forget the fact 203 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:23.320 they could do a lot more. I mean, in five 204 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:25.679 years they're probably going to be a manager and then 205 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:27.519 five years later that they're going to be a director. 206 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:32.720 They have that potential. So leadership begins with saying, my 207 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:36.519 job is to release that potential. And that is actually 208 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:40.480 not one hundred percent altruistic. If you go to a 209 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:43.039 board and say, okay, what am I paying you to 210 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:44.559 be a leader? I mean, how much do I pay you? 211 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:46.399 How much am I paying my leaders? And how much 212 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.279 am I paying my employees? Are you getting the best 213 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:52.279 out of them? Because if you're not, then why aren't you? 214 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:56.639 Because I'm paying the salaries, I expect the very best. 215 00:10:56.679 --> 00:10:59.840 But many leaders say, well, firstly, that's a foreign concept. 216 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:04.440 I'm being paid to release human potential and secondly, I 217 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.360 have no idea how to do it. But Lorenzo, it's interesting. 218 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:10.200 If you think of the best leaders you've ever worked for, 219 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:15.039 you perform better, they get the best out of you. Okay, 220 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:17.960 I got to be like one of those people. I 221 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.360 want to be a best leader because I know for 222 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:23.679 myself I perform better for a great leader. So that 223 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.399 then makes it much easier to go to an organization 224 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:29.279 and say, Okay, we've codified what makes a great leader. 225 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:31.919 We will teach them. You got to make sure that 226 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:33.039 they apply what we teach. 227 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:36.120 I love that, Phil, and I want to go deeper 228 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.720 into this concept of releasing human potential, but first I 229 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.799 want to give it up for a few of our sponsors. Okay, 230 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:46.320 so welcome back. We're talking to Phil here, and I 231 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:50.840 want to dive deeper into this idea of releasing human potential. 232 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.240 And you kind of were talking about this before the break, 233 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:58.159 but as you explain this concept and the importance of it, 234 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:01.440 which I completely agree with, and maybe people say they 235 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.440 want to but then their actions don't show you that 236 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:06.399 they're going to do it. I would love to know 237 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:08.679 more about that, Like do you feel that's an element 238 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:11.600 of not wanting to give up controlled? Is it ego? 239 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:15.480 Is it protecting opportunities because they feel that others, when 240 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.000 empowered and emboldened, maybe able to take their role. Like 241 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.559 what do you feel are the things that are stopping 242 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:23.840 some of the leaders from releasing the actual human potential. 243 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:26.879 Yeah, that is a great question, and I think your 244 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:30.720 average listener would immediately jump to, well, you know, they 245 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.240 don't want to give up control. It's their ego. I 246 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:36.519 don't really think that's it for the majority. And let 247 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:38.480 me see if I can paint a mental picture for you. 248 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:44.480 Think of a rectangle, vertical rectangle, and at the bottom 249 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:47.279 of this you have me just getting into the job. 250 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:50.440 My first job, I'm digging ditches out on the construction crew, 251 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:53.200 and then I get promoted. And as I'm moving up 252 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.320 that sort of vertical rectangle a little bit. As I 253 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.879 get promoted, I got a guy working for me, but 254 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:01.080 I'm still now I'm on the back home. Then I 255 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:04.000 get promoted again and I'm operating the back hobe, and 256 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:05.960 I'm also doing a little bit of hiring because now 257 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:10.159 I'm a lead hand. But as I progress through my career, 258 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:16.879 I'm moving and keeping being promoted because of my competence functionally. 259 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:19.320 I'm good on the road, I'm good with the equipment, 260 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:22.639 I'm good at dealing with the contractors, and I keep 261 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:25.879 getting promoted until ultimately I become a VP of construction 262 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.480 or something. But if you go back to that the base. 263 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.679 In my first job, I was all functional and my 264 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:36.679 only interpersonal relationships I had a beer with the boys 265 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:39.320 at the end of the day. By the time I'm 266 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:43.840 kind of like the foreman, I'm still eighty five percent functional, 267 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.879 but I'm fifteen percent only now I got to kind 268 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:48.919 of deal with a couple of problems when the guys 269 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:53.360 are showing up late. So as my career progresses, I 270 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:58.600 move from being primarily functionally driven to being more people centric, 271 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:00.639 and by the time I get to a VP, I 272 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:02.879 can't even remember where the key to the bacco is 273 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.679 and I'm just dealing with people problems all the time. 274 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.559 But the reason I tell that is because each promotion 275 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.840 is based on functional competence. I know how to do 276 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:19.120 stuff with things, so I naturally take those skills and 277 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:23.320 apply them to managing people. I treat people like things, right, 278 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.799 because that's my career, until ultimately I suddenly realize people 279 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.240 aren't things. The way I'm managing them doesn't work anymore 280 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:35.279 because they're actually But by then I'm so far into 281 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:40.039 my career I've not been equipped to manage people differently. 282 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.639 So what you see is it's not that I don't 283 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.200 value that you have potential. I don't know how to 284 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.679 do that. I think of you as a machine of it. 285 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:51.159 It wouldn't be that course, but that is really what 286 00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:53.840 it is. And so I'm managing you the only way 287 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:55.600 I know how to manage anything. Why you do this, 288 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:57.720 you get that output. If it doesn't work, you fix it, 289 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:02.440 as opposed to Early in my career, I was taught 290 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.840 how to communicate effectively, how to give feedback with respect, 291 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.639 how to take feedback and not be offended by it. 292 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:14.200 So very often when I'm working with an organization, say look, guys, 293 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:17.159 I appreciate you don't have the skills to release you 294 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:20.200 with potential. But it's not malicious. It's not that you 295 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.360 don't want it. You've just never wrapped your head around that. 296 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.159 So let me help you with that. I mean, they 297 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:32.120 typically say, okay, that's great. And once you see the benefit, Lorenza, 298 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:35.440 once you get the power of the people coming to 299 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:37.360 you and giving you all that they have, you go, man, 300 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:40.039 where has this been all my life? And so they 301 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:44.159 migrate to it. So that it's more about recognizing the 302 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:50.440 leaders are not poor leaders by intent or by conscious choice. 303 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.919 It's by circumstance and we have to jump in and 304 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.480 deal with that deficiency, and most of the time they 305 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:58.120 embrace it and you get the benefit. 306 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.039 Yeah, I love that you were talking through it. I 307 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:04.679 imagine in most all jobs and industries, you know, you 308 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.039 hire someone to be a specialist, and then you teach 309 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:10.120 them how to become that specialist. And then as they 310 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.200 continue to your point, you know, navigate their career and 311 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:17.360 advance up, they become more specialists at different things, but 312 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:22.039 they being a generalist with humans is different than being 313 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:26.440 a generalist when it comes to like, you know, verticals 314 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:28.759 of specialized things that you have to do there. So 315 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:30.879 you mentioned this earlier in the show, but like that 316 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.559 idea of like, what are we teaching those at that 317 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:38.879 level to better collaborate, to understand how do you work 318 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:42.039 through and managed to conflict, how do you create spaces 319 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:46.000 of healthy debates, and how do you have them understand 320 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:50.840 that that. I think to truly be able to empower people, 321 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:53.679 you have to feel empowered yourself, you know, you kind 322 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:57.120 of have to. You have to experience that in a 323 00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.720 way that allows you to then create the space to 324 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:00.360 make that happen. 325 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.599 Absolutely, And you know, it's interesting because I'll talk with 326 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:06.240 leaders and they go, okay, Phil, I get it. I 327 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.680 get it. You know, I'll master this. And then they 328 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:11.960 get their feedback forms and they go, well, baby over 329 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.200 here thinks I'm great. Fred thinks I'm terrible. How is 330 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.440 that possible? I'm the same guy. And I think it's 331 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:22.400 because they do not understand that human beings are different, 332 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:25.640 so you can't treat them all the same and you 333 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.640 can't expect them to all be like you. You as 334 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.640 the leader, have to learn to adapt, and we have 335 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:36.039 in our communication course we talk about style, fact and passion. 336 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.359 So if I'm going to deal with somebody, what is 337 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.200 their style? How much do they like fact and how 338 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.240 much do they like passion? And that formula changes for 339 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:47.759 every human being. So as a leader, I the leader, 340 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.599 have to change and when I do, then all my 341 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:55.759 feedback forms come back saying I'm great because not because 342 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:58.839 the person has changed, but I have learned to adapt. 343 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.559 And I do that because I want to get at 344 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.039 the potential and therefore I'm willing to make the changes 345 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:08.559 in my behavior that I need to optimize their contribution. Yeah. 346 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:11.319 I love that. And you also mentioned this in an 347 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.880 interview and it's kind of this idea that you know, 348 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.480 you want to write a book to help organizations leverage 349 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.440 the fact that people want to give more. So like 350 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:25.720 this whole thing is baked in. People want to give more, 351 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.559 they're looking for reasons to do it, and in the organization, 352 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.400 and the leaders of the organization have to find ways 353 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:34.920 to to want them to do that by again, by 354 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:36.680 role modeling that type of thing. But tell me what, 355 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:38.720 tell me more about that? Like what do you mean 356 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:42.759 when when you're so when you're when you're when you're 357 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:47.200 very confident in knowing that people want to give more? 358 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:52.200 Yep, uh, Well, most people want job security. Typically they 359 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:56.960 want either advancement or certainly quality of life, and therefore 360 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.960 they want their organization to succeed. So Lake, if I'm 361 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:02.880 I'm gonna work, I'm gonna do my best work. If 362 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.839 my boss doesn't let me do my best work, I 363 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.200 get frustrated, and that's part of the problem. So I 364 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.680 think there is there's sort of an inherent desire to 365 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:15.079 do well and that can be killed easily if your 366 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:18.160 boss is a bit of a not supportive. But the 367 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.119 moment you work for someone who causes that to flourish, 368 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:26.119 then you jump into that. Now the challenge is a 369 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:31.440 great leader defines the sandbox the employee. So the sandbox 370 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:37.160 means I will help you determine as much freedom as 371 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.759 I can give you where you are not overly. You 372 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:43.200 don't have too much freedom, and therefore you could put 373 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.000 something at risk, or you don't have enough freedom, and 374 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:49.240 therefore you get frustrated. So let's define your freedom of 375 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.039 authority in your job. Someone comes to you to rent 376 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:53.559 a car and the car is not there. Can you 377 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.640 give them another car? Can a discount? Like what's your 378 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.799 freedom of authority? And then the person goes, Okay, I 379 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.000 now know the sandbox that I can play and I'm 380 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.960 not always worried that I'm going to but my job 381 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:08.039 as at least and then you know what, let's talk 382 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.880 about increasing your sandbox. How can I help you grow 383 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.119 so you can make more decisions have a bigger impact. 384 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:19.400 And you see that particularly especially in the service industry, 385 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:23.279 where you're dealing with clerks and sometimes you know they've 386 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:26.599 got no authority, know they want to help you, but 387 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:30.279 the organization has not given them the environment that allows that, 388 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:32.920 and you can see how frustrated they are. As opposed 389 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:35.920 to other companies where they're there, they want to help, 390 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.119 and their sandbox size has been so well defined they 391 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:41.559 know what they can do. And as a customer, I think, man, 392 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:44.559 I really like you. I'm coming back here again. But 393 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:49.200 it's the same person. It's just that one organization has 394 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:51.720 done nothing around the sandbox definition and the other has 395 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:54.319 done a great job at defining it and growing it. 396 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:57.720 And that, I think is how you get in practice 397 00:20:58.079 --> 00:20:58.920 what you're looking for. 398 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:01.920 I love that. I think you know, there's a lot 399 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:04.680 of articles over the years around Zappos when they first started, 400 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.279 and kind of that concept of like whatever it takes 401 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:09.960