WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:13.119 Welcome to the Texas trib Cast. I'm Women's health reporter 2 00:00:13.240 --> 00:00:18.760 Eleanor klebanoff here today flying solo because Matthew Watkins, our 3 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:22.480 editor in chief, is off at a super secret meeting 4 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:25.600 which is actually not super secret. They are in an 5 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:28.920 all day planning meeting about trib Fest, which we're very 6 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:33.159 excited about. He is, you know, they're securing all those 7 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:35.119 big names that you know in love for trip Fest. 8 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:39.520 In exciting news, this year's trib Fest will be in November, 9 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:42.200 which is great if you don't like being cooked to 10 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.119 death in white canvas tents. So we are very excited 11 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:49.000 about that. We released him on that and it's very 12 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:52.840 good timing because you know, this is finally a week 13 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:54.840 of the trib Cast where I get to talk about 14 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:58.560 something I know about. I have been faking it for 15 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:01.479 so many weeks and now finally this is my area 16 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:02.039 of expertise. 17 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:03.280 We're actually gonna interview yous. 18 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.079 Yeah, right, yes. And Matthew, you know, he couldn't stand it. 19 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:09.200 He's you know, usually he's the expert. He knows so 20 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:12.000 much about the Texas legislature. And he said, you know, 21 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.079 I won't be on it if you know more than 22 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:20.280 I do, so he walked off. No, we are going 23 00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:22.760 to do this without him today, but he will be 24 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.079 back next week and we don't need him because we 25 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:31.640 have two phenomenal guests on two of my reporting colleagues, 26 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:37.959 sometimes reporting competitors, sometimes friends, sometimes enemies, sometimes frenemies. We've 27 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:40.920 got Baylis Wagner from the Austin American Statesman, Baylis, how 28 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:44.480 are you? I'm good, honor great? And Taylor Goldenstein from 29 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:45.359 the Houston Chronicle. 30 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:46.799 Yes, got to be here. 31 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:51.040 You guys are soon going to be journalistic siblings. Hurst 32 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:55.239 is Hurst, which currently owns the Houston Chronicle, is buying bought, 33 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:56.599 is in. 34 00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:59.040 The process of closing to buy. 35 00:01:58.640 --> 00:01:59.799 The Austin American Statesman. 36 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.480 Yeah, First has bought the Statesman, but the merger is 37 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:04.719 not going to be finalized with this. 38 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.879 Okay, so you guys speak. So we are your parents 39 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:12.360 are engaged, we married, You're engaged, they're not married yet. Yes, yes, okay, 40 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:16.159 Well that'll be fun for you guys to be pals 41 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:17.759 instead of enemies. 42 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:18.680 Yeah for sure. 43 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:21.360 Yes, we can actually finally talk and yeah. 44 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:23.680 Yeah, well, thank you guys so much for joining us. 45 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:28.719 We are going to be talking about abortion, abortion politics, 46 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:32.719 the guiding light in Texas politics for more than a 47 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:37.879 decade and now a very you know, after we a 48 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:42.520 very I would say, quiet session last year, last session. 49 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.599 Now things are really heating up again on abortion. So Taylor, 50 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:49.080 maybe you can start and pick us back even further 51 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:51.599 to twenty twenty one, kind of twenty twenty one, to 52 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.560 now catch us up on you know, the journey to 53 00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:56.479 where we stand now with these abortion bands. 54 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.439 Yeah, so I mean we start with SPA or do 55 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.039 you want to start that? Yeah, we start with SB eight. 56 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:05.240 Was this you know, kind of novel approach to banning 57 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:07.439 abortion where they were able to kind of get around 58 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:11.400 legal challenges by using a private citizen enforcement mechanism where 59 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.520 private citizens could sue if they knew of an illegal abortion. 60 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:20.039 And that was kind of the first Foray and to 61 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.960 you know, massively banning abortion. And then of course, we 62 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.639 know in June twenty twenty two, I believe the Supreme 63 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.960 Court knocked down Robe Wade, which made it possible for 64 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:32.800 Texas to pass what's called a trigger law. So they 65 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:35.639 anticipated that may happen and kind of put in legislation 66 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:38.280 saying if that happens, you know, we want to basically 67 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:41.680 go ahead and ban almost all abortions except those for 68 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:44.479 the life of the mother. So that's kind of where 69 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:49.159 we've been at legally, leading us to this session where 70 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.240 everything's been kind of focused on that one exception of 71 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:53.319 around the life of the mother. 72 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:58.080 Yeah. I always tell people the time I started the 73 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:02.439 Tribune in November twenty twenty one, SBA was in effect. 74 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:04.599 But I was like, started this in this very weird 75 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:07.919 in between moments where SBA was in effect, abortions after 76 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:10.280 about six weeks of pregnancy were banned. It was like 77 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:13.479 a huge deal, right, this was like the first sort 78 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:17.560 of workaround to ban abortions under row. But still when 79 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:19.519 I started in November, I think a lot of we 80 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:21.360 were waiting for the US Supreme Court to say whether 81 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:23.839 or not SBA would be upheld. I think a lot 82 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:27.240 of people on all sides thought it would be struck down. 83 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:29.680 It was not good law, and it was and Roe 84 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:32.959 would like stop that. So in the when I started, 85 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:35.319 they were like yeah, and we sort of anticipated a 86 00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:37.800 lot of sources like they would anticipate getting struck down. 87 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:41.040 And then about a week later got upheld and I 88 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:42.800 was like, oh, oh no, I. 89 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:44.160 Thought this this is happening. 90 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:45.839 This is happening. I mean I sort of was like, 91 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:47.800 this is happening because we've got the dabs hearing and 92 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:50.160 all that, but I was like, this happening now, right, Yeah, 93 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:52.839 really changed you as well. 94 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:56.079 And that mechanism lives on. I'm sure we'll talk about it. 95 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:57.399 Yea, it's like still in effect. 96 00:04:57.920 --> 00:04:59.560 And for other bills, I mean too, I mean that's 97 00:04:59.560 --> 00:04:59.920 living on. 98 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:02.439 So yes, we're finding a new. 99 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:06.439 Uses for it every day. Yes, very useful. 100 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.480 Yeah, so that was really interesting for me to in 101 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:11.680 a matter of two weeks be like, oh, this is 102 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:12.920 now the full focus. 103 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:15.439 Right yeah, yeah, yeah, I can imagine I was jarring 104 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.319 for the abortion clinics as well. Yes, yeah, how quickly 105 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:21.680 that all kind of like collassed. 106 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:24.160 Yeah, it was such a such a period of time, 107 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:26.319 really crazy. And now it feels like, of course it's 108 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.920 an effect, like right, feel it's not even a question anymore. 109 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:32.040 But at the time it felt very shocking. 110 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:35.639 But it's still interestingly causes a lot of confusion where 111 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:39.600 you know, I'll sometimes write about the law all abortions 112 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:43.040 are banned except those to save the life the mother, essentially, 113 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.319 which we'll get into the language of the exception later. 114 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.399 But people still think that it's legal until six weeks 115 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:52.680 because that's what SBA legalized. They still just constantly they 116 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:55.680 don't realize that it is no longer that, like there's 117 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:57.920 a criminal penalty if you have you know, a heaper 118 00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:59.759 form and abortion before six weeks. 119 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:00.480 Right. 120 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:02.439 There was a study not too long ago that people 121 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:04.600 didn't even know the clinics were closed. Like there was 122 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:06.519 a question said, you know, can you still get an abortion? 123 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:07.160 People said yes. 124 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:10.360 A lot of people didn't know. There's no rape exception, 125 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:15.439 there's no incestic exception, there's no exception for fatal fetal diagnoses. Yeah. 126 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.160 I think we've heard that from so many people who 127 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.240 have needed to seek an abortion for like a lethal 128 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:22.560 field anomaly or something like that, where they say like 129 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:25.920 they didn't know until it was there, until you need it, 130 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:28.639 that like there's no exception for that, and then they're 131 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.120 convincing their family members like oh no, no, no, neverone's like, oh, 132 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:32.480 I thought it would deal with that, and you're like 133 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:36.600 it does not. Yeah, So that sort of catches us 134 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.240 up to today, where abortion is banned up to six 135 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:41.920 weeks or after six weeks. In pregnancy through private enforcement 136 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:46.079 is banned from the moment of conception through criminal enforcement. 137 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.360 We are going to talk about the pre ro band 138 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:51.199 so just put a pin in that for now, but 139 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:54.920 baylis talk about like what sort of the like what 140 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.319 issues we've seen under this for patients and providers, and 141 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:01.000 then we'll get into what the clarifying bills aimed to do. 142 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:05.160 Yeah, so I think the point to start talking to 143 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:10.439 this would be twenty women who had had serious pregnancy 144 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:14.360 complications and two obgi ns sued the state over their 145 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:18.360 complications and sort of I think became the biggest source 146 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:22.120 of people sharing their stories of how this band it 147 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:29.319 affected them. The lead plaintiff, Amanda Zarowski, had a premature 148 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:33.720 water break and because while the pregnancy was doomed without 149 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:38.079 any amniotic fluid, the fetal cardiac activity was still there. 150 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:40.720 A hospital told her she basically had to wait for 151 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:45.120 it to pass, and in that time she developed sepsis, 152 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:49.519 which is a life threatening infection, and that sort of 153 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:54.199 like galvanized a movement I guess to talk about, you know, 154 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:57.120 where is the line with the risk of death for 155 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:03.959 mother Other women have spoken about having a diagnosis for example, 156 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:07.519 and these are you know, women with very wanted pregnancies. 157 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:14.759 One Caitlin Cash who lives in Austin, had a child 158 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:18.839 that had a condition that meant the bones did not 159 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.879 develop correctly and could break within her womb, and also 160 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:25.600 that it would not that the fetus would not survive, 161 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:29.439 and she under Texas law, you can't leave the state 162 00:08:29.480 --> 00:08:32.559 in that case. So she felt that the best decision 163 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.600 for her family was to leave the state. She took 164 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:39.960 part in the Zarosky lawsuit. There's a woman who Samantha Cassiano, 165 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:44.240 who had a child that lung the lungs did not 166 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.639 develop correctly and also I think the brain it was 167 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:49.240 I don't remember the name of the condition, but I 168 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:57.159 think yes, And she couldn't leave the state to terminate 169 00:08:57.159 --> 00:09:01.320 the pregnancy, and she testified just last week. But also 170 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.039 in this Zaroski case about watching the baby that she 171 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.360 gave birth to choke over the course of ours, eyes 172 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.240 turning purple. So it's it's that kind of thing where, 173 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:16.759 you know, some women choose to carry those pregnancies to term, 174 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:19.960 and other women feel that they want to have the 175 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:23.600 choice to terminate those pregnancies. So that's that's, you know, 176 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:28.519 aside from all the cases in which women want to 177 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:29.759 get abortions for other reasons. 178 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:34.080 Than medical diagnoses, right, Like the crux of the issue 179 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:37.120 that we've like sort of seen emerge in the last 180 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:40.840 three I mean three years since SBA, certainly, but certainly 181 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:43.799 since the near total ban is like this question right 182 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:45.480 about like when can doctors intervene, like you said with 183 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:48.279 Amanda Zarowski, and like, as you said, Taylor, like there 184 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.080 is an exception for you know, the law says basically 185 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.399 like if the pregnant patient is going to is going 186 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:57.840 to die or like suffer significant issues with like the 187 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:01.279 like long term medical impacts because of continuing to carry 188 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:01.879 this pregnancy. 189 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.240 But the consequences are so strict, right like Taylor, like 190 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:08.240 what why are doctors say? Why do you doctors say, 191 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:10.480 like they're hesitating to intervene on these pregnancies. 192 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:13.360 Right, These are steep penalties, the possibility of up to 193 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:17.480 ninety nine years in prison, raplication of your medical license, 194 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:21.840 things that would basically ruin your life. So I think 195 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:25.360 between the doctors and the doctor's lawyers, I think that 196 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:28.600 is a huge risk to be taking when you know 197 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:30.679 you could gamble on like just waiting a little bit 198 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:32.360 and waiting a little bit, right. 199 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:35.480 I think, Like it's so funny, like we I think 200 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:37.120 we hear a lot about like, you know, waiting until 201 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:40.000 the patient has like gotten to a point where it's 202 00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:42.240 so clear their life is endangered that now will act. 203 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:45.240 I also feel like, anecdotally I've heard I think sometimes 204 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:48.200 doctors just acting in their own sort of like personal interests, 205 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.399 think like i't just wait, like and then my shift 206 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.120 will be over. And then you know that it's like 207 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:54.600 the ur and like you have to get the nurses 208 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:56.399 on board, you have to get like the doctor, the 209 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.919 hospital lawyer. Like this is not I think we see 210 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:00.919 this as like a doctor's stand. They're looking at a 211 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:03.840 patient being like wait till you're sicker. But really it's 212 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:07.360 like a whole apparatus. These are happening in hospitals. These 213 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:10.240 are happening in like the state's biggest hospitals. 214 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:12.320 So yeah, and I wonder how much of it is 215 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:14.279 even conscious or it's just like okay, well maybe not 216 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:16.759 now and then the next time you get to that patient, yeah. 217 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:19.720 Right, exactly. Yeah, And we've now had at least three 218 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.799 stories of women. We've had three stories reported of women 219 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.879 who have died due to this delayed care, which sort 220 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:29.039 of brought us to this point. I mean We've had 221 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:34.559 anti abortion groups lawmakers and saying like these laws are clear, 222 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:36.519 we don't need to clarify them, like the doctors are 223 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:39.840 the like if the doctors aren't acting, I remember at 224 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:42.600 the Zaraski hearing they were saying like if your doctors 225 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:45.919 aren't treating you, soon them for medical malpractice. Was basically 226 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:48.399 the message like this isn't a problem with the law 227 00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:51.919 that has changed. We had to be three pro Public 228 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:54.720 has reported on these three women who died and due 229 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.480 to this delayed care and. 230 00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:58.879 And theist reporting as well in the. 231 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.120 Sepsist reporting, right, this like huge increase in patients, pregnant 232 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:06.080 patients experiencing sepsis, which brings us to now. I mean, 233 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:08.480 it's funny like in I think it was like November, 234 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:11.759 right before the election, Brian Hughes, the author of several 235 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:16.159 Texas abortion bans, a senator from Miniola, wrote this op 236 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:18.399 ed that was like I wrote, the abortion laws they're clear, 237 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:19.600 they don't need to be clarified. 238 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:23.279 Right, Yeah, what happened next to yes? 239 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.559 Ye? Yeah. 240 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.639 Fast forward some months and we're in the legislative session 241 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.679 and there's a bipartisan bill on the table to clarify 242 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.639 the law. Change some of the language to with the 243 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.279 intents of making it clearer and making it more possible 244 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:40.039 for doctor Stantervene sooner. 245 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:42.399 And Baalis, I mean talk about this bill and what 246 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:44.600 isn't it and what is not in it? 247 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:49.600 Yeah, So I think the most potentially disappointing thing was 248 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:53.240 that there was some talk that may be an exception 249 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.279 for fatal fetal anomalies when you know you're pregnant and 250 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:59.080 the you know, a doctor says this fetus is not 251 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:01.840 going to survive, would be carved out. That's not the case. 252 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:07.440 What it does is it takes inconsistent language among the 253 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:12.240 three abortion bands, three different laws that Texas has, and 254 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.919 streamlines the exception for medical emergencies, where once there was 255 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.480 a language that said a woman must have a life 256 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:24.399 threatening condition that causes risk of death or risk of 257 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.200 serious risk of substantial loss of a major bodily function, 258 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:33.799 which is where its soup, as one lot professor told me, now, 259 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.200 it's it takes out this prerequisite that you have a 260 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:40.240 life threatening condition. So it's a truly bifurcated law. You know, 261 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:42.879 risk of substantial laws and major bodily function or risk 262 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.559 of death. It says that you can you know, doctors 263 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:51.039 need not wait until the risk is imminent to intervene it. 264 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:55.000 It's clarify. Its widens the definition of an ectopic pregnancy 265 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.799 because those can be you know, in scar tissue, you know, 266 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:01.840 and be dangerous, not just be outside the woman, be dangerous. 267 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:06.159 And it also requires that doctors got a certain amount 268 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:11.240 of education on what the law says. Groups like Texas 269 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.159 Right to Life have said that the problem for them 270 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.759 is not that the law needs to clarify, but the 271 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:19.000 doctors aren't educated on it. So, you know, doctors generally 272 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:21.799 have disagreed with that, but we'll see. And then it 273 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:25.360 also has a course for alerts that can take right. 274 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:28.639 I mean this and you know, I think this is 275 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:30.600 the kind of thing like we as journalists cannot hit 276 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:33.720 hard enough. It's like, this does not expand who can 277 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.200 get an abortion in Texas. It does expand, it hopefully 278 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:40.799 expands who is able to get an abortion they previously 279 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:43.559 qualified for how qunquote and how quickly? 280 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:45.440 Yeah, the timing I think is the key. 281 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:48.840 Yeah. Right, And this it's gotten a lot of great feedback, right, 282 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.919 I mean, we've got some very strange bedfellows on this law. Right, 283 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:56.120 We've got Senator Brian Hughes of you know, strongly anti 284 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:00.480 abortion conservative. And on the House side we have Representive 285 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:05.559 Donna Howard, Representative Anne Johnson. These like very pro abortion. 286 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:08.879 Some of the most like I think, outspoken abortion advocates 287 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:14.960 in the House on board doctors groups are on board. 288 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.360 Uh, Texas Hospital Associate, Texas. 289 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:16.960 Hospital Association, the anti abortion groups. 290 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.919 Like it was feeling Medical Association. 291 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:22.039 Like we were gonna have a little moment of five 292 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:27.399 partisan joy. Wouldn't that be nice? That's what it was 293 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.840 looking like. Yes, and then we still may I think 294 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:36.080 another record scratch, Yeah, another record scratch. This issue has 295 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:39.279 reared its ugly head about. As I was telling Baylists before, 296 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:42.000 this my literal favorite thing to talk about in the 297 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:46.360 entire world, the pre ro banks fun. Yes, I am 298 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.879 obsessed with the pre ro laws. So, for brief explanation, 299 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.720 when roebe Wade was decided in nineteen seventy three, people 300 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.120 forget it was actually a Texas case, and so they 301 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:03.000 essentially put on ice all states abortion bands, but specifically 302 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:08.279 they were saying, Texas, your law is unconstitutional. Now Texas said, okay, 303 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:10.320 they did not take it off the books, they left 304 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:14.399 it sitting there, but it was unenforced for forty nine years. 305 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:20.039 Then ROW is struck down by and replaced with Dobbs, 306 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:24.399 which says you can ban abortion. And the question emerged 307 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.679 of are those pre ROW laws still on the books. 308 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:34.320 And it only matters because these laws allow would allow 309 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:39.200 the state to criminally penalize anyone who furnishes the means 310 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:41.919 for an abortion. So groups that help people pay to 311 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:45.039 travel out of state and things like that, people who 312 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:49.159 help bring you know, are involved in abortion pills and 313 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:51.639 things like that, are very nervous about those laws being 314 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:55.440 put back into effect. 315 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:58.559 And critically, can I add two on it? Unlike the 316 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.279 most recent bands does not have an exception for criminalizing 317 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:01.840 the mother. 318 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:05.359 Yes, right, which is a huge I mean under Texas 319 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:10.440 existing or definitely existing laws, they cannot the person who 320 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:12.160 has the abortion cannot be criminalized. 321 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:14.839 Right, And that's been a major Republican talking point. We 322 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:15.680 don't want to go there. 323 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:18.880 Yes, we have the Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick saying that's ridiculous. 324 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:20.920 Anyone who says that we would go after the mother 325 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:24.079 is you know, the Republicans are saying that, not really Republicans. 326 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:29.839 Yeah, The problem is, like, are the pre ro laws 327 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:33.440 in effect? If you ask conservative lawmakers, they say, yes, 328 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.240 they are definitively in effect. We have written them into 329 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.799 statute before. Those laws are good laws. 330 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:39.880 Sorry. 331 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:44.000 If you ask the other side, they say, definitively they 332 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.039 are not in effect. The Fifth Circuit, the Appellate Court, 333 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:53.920 has said that they are repealed by implication. Taylor talking 334 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.000 about like how this is now coming into this. 335 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.920 Issue, right, Yeah, So I think just very recently the 336 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.799 abortion funds have come out and so that they oppose 337 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:07.160 this clarification law or these clarification laws because they believe 338 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.240 that basically, by amending that, you know, Baylis's pointed out, 339 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:13.720 you have to change the definition everywhere it appears in 340 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:15.359 the law. So they're going to make them all the same. 341 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:17.599 That means you have to touch the what are we 342 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.160 calling them pre ro brands, And by doing that, you're 343 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:25.119 basically signaling to courts that we think this is an effect, 344 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:26.960 because if it weren't, why do you need to amend 345 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.559 amend it? So to them, that would be kind of 346 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.160 the green light for the courts to then say that 347 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:35.759 those laws are active, and it would kind of counteract 348 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.160 their previous argument that they are not in effect. 349 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:43.319 Yeah, it's a real like legal gray area. It's one 350 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:45.720 of those things where each side, if you call it 351 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:47.839 like a legal debate, they're like, well, it's not really 352 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.359 a debate, right, and you're like, but you each have 353 00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:53.119 different reasons why you think that's right the case. Yeah. Yeah, 354 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.160 it's super complicated, yes, but I love it because I 355 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:58.799 love unresolved legal question. 356 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.119 It's one of those end the weds things that probably 357 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:03.640 the general public or reporters wouldn't even get into if 358 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.000 it weren't like the crux of the issue here, you 359 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:06.920 have to talk about it. 360 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.519 Yeah, yeah, I people often call these the nineteen twenty 361 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:13.720 five laws, which is inaccurate. 362 00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:15.200 Yeah, this is my real bugle. 363 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:16.440 I thought you were going to go there. 364 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:19.759 Yeah, this is my real thing. If people, if I 365 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:21.880 have one influence on Texas journalism, it is people will 366 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.079 stop calling them the nineteen twenty five laws and call 367 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.759 them the eighteen fifty seven laws. Okay, nineteen twenty five 368 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:29.720 is just when Texas codified its penal code. So all 369 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.799 of our laws are nineteen twenty five laws unless they've 370 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:33.599 been amended since. 371 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:35.839 So do you think there's like a political aspect to 372 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:36.519 that or now. 373 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.599 Nineteen twenty five objectively sounds. 374 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:42.440 It sounds much better than yeah, we gotta go back 375 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:43.319 to fifty seven. 376 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.000 Yeah, almost Now. I do think like when Arizona was 377 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.880 debating their pre ro statue, like all the messaging from 378 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:53.079 the abortion access people was very like these laws existed before, 379 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:55.519 like Arizona was even a state, Like these existed before 380 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:56.200 the Civil War. 381 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:57.880 Feels very like give it some context. 382 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.599 Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think can we talk about 383 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.240 sort of the other side of the debate, right, so 384 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:09.440 the abortion funds are very concerned that, you know, this 385 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:13.400 would make them stop work potentially because it has this 386 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:16.799 language not furnishing the means for an abortion. I talked 387 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:21.160 with some legal experts. One of them is Less Sepper, 388 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:26.480 a professor of law at UT and she feels that 389 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.480 the argument is not that strong what she says in 390 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:31.880 and you alreadys also talked to her eleanor I believe. 391 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:37.720 But what she said is that one this law was 392 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:41.400 only ever construed to apply in state, so you know, 393 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:45.480 the funds for out of state abortions shouldn't be affected 394 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:48.759 because the means for an abortion that was meant to 395 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:51.400 apply like to having an abortion in state, although of 396 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:53.519 course it could apply to pills that come into the state. 397 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.839 Another thing she said was that the courts have always 398 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:03.359 interpreted it to be to not be able to be infortune. 399 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.000 So I think, you know, she thinks that, you know, 400 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:12.240 she thinks that it's sort of not a super likely chance. 401 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:14.559