1 00:00:09,839 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Texas trib Cast. I'm Women's health reporter 2 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:18,760 Eleanor klebanoff here today flying solo because Matthew Watkins, our 3 00:00:18,879 --> 00:00:22,480 editor in chief, is off at a super secret meeting 4 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,600 which is actually not super secret. They are in an 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,920 all day planning meeting about trib Fest, which we're very 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,159 excited about. He is, you know, they're securing all those 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,119 big names that you know in love for trip Fest. 8 00:00:36,439 --> 00:00:39,520 In exciting news, this year's trib Fest will be in November, 9 00:00:39,799 --> 00:00:42,200 which is great if you don't like being cooked to 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,119 death in white canvas tents. So we are very excited 11 00:00:46,119 --> 00:00:49,000 about that. We released him on that and it's very 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,840 good timing because you know, this is finally a week 13 00:00:53,079 --> 00:00:54,840 of the trib Cast where I get to talk about 14 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,560 something I know about. I have been faking it for 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,479 so many weeks and now finally this is my area 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:02,039 of expertise. 17 00:01:02,159 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: We're actually gonna interview yous. 18 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:07,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, yes. And Matthew, you know, he couldn't stand it. 19 00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:09,200 He's you know, usually he's the expert. He knows so 20 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,000 much about the Texas legislature. And he said, you know, 21 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:14,079 I won't be on it if you know more than 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:20,280 I do, so he walked off. No, we are going 23 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,760 to do this without him today, but he will be 24 00:01:22,799 --> 00:01:26,079 back next week and we don't need him because we 25 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:31,640 have two phenomenal guests on two of my reporting colleagues, 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:37,959 sometimes reporting competitors, sometimes friends, sometimes enemies, sometimes frenemies. We've 27 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,920 got Baylis Wagner from the Austin American Statesman, Baylis, how 28 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,480 are you? I'm good, honor great? And Taylor Goldenstein from 29 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:45,359 the Houston Chronicle. 30 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:46,799 Speaker 2: Yes, got to be here. 31 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: You guys are soon going to be journalistic siblings. Hurst 32 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:55,239 is Hurst, which currently owns the Houston Chronicle, is buying bought, 33 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:56,599 is in. 34 00:01:56,519 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: The process of closing to buy. 35 00:01:58,640 --> 00:01:59,799 Speaker 1: The Austin American Statesman. 36 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, First has bought the Statesman, but the merger is 37 00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:04,719 not going to be finalized with this. 38 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,879 Speaker 1: Okay, so you guys speak. So we are your parents 39 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,360 are engaged, we married, You're engaged, they're not married yet. Yes, yes, okay, 40 00:02:13,159 --> 00:02:16,159 Well that'll be fun for you guys to be pals 41 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:17,759 instead of enemies. 42 00:02:18,039 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 3: Yeah for sure. 43 00:02:18,719 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: Yes, we can actually finally talk and yeah. 44 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you guys so much for joining us. 45 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:28,719 We are going to be talking about abortion, abortion politics, 46 00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:32,719 the guiding light in Texas politics for more than a 47 00:02:32,719 --> 00:02:37,879 decade and now a very you know, after we a 48 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:42,520 very I would say, quiet session last year, last session. 49 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,599 Now things are really heating up again on abortion. So Taylor, 50 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,080 maybe you can start and pick us back even further 51 00:02:49,159 --> 00:02:51,599 to twenty twenty one, kind of twenty twenty one, to 52 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,560 now catch us up on you know, the journey to 53 00:02:54,719 --> 00:02:56,479 where we stand now with these abortion bands. 54 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean we start with SPA or do 55 00:02:59,479 --> 00:03:02,039 you want to start that? Yeah, we start with SB eight. 56 00:03:02,319 --> 00:03:05,240 Was this you know, kind of novel approach to banning 57 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,439 abortion where they were able to kind of get around 58 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:11,400 legal challenges by using a private citizen enforcement mechanism where 59 00:03:11,439 --> 00:03:15,520 private citizens could sue if they knew of an illegal abortion. 60 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,039 And that was kind of the first Foray and to 61 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,960 you know, massively banning abortion. And then of course, we 62 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,639 know in June twenty twenty two, I believe the Supreme 63 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,960 Court knocked down Robe Wade, which made it possible for 64 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:32,800 Texas to pass what's called a trigger law. So they 65 00:03:33,039 --> 00:03:35,639 anticipated that may happen and kind of put in legislation 66 00:03:35,719 --> 00:03:38,280 saying if that happens, you know, we want to basically 67 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:41,680 go ahead and ban almost all abortions except those for 68 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,479 the life of the mother. So that's kind of where 69 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,159 we've been at legally, leading us to this session where 70 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,240 everything's been kind of focused on that one exception of 71 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:53,319 around the life of the mother. 72 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. I always tell people the time I started the 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,439 Tribune in November twenty twenty one, SBA was in effect. 74 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,599 But I was like, started this in this very weird 75 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,919 in between moments where SBA was in effect, abortions after 76 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,280 about six weeks of pregnancy were banned. It was like 77 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,479 a huge deal, right, this was like the first sort 78 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,560 of workaround to ban abortions under row. But still when 79 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,519 I started in November, I think a lot of we 80 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:21,360 were waiting for the US Supreme Court to say whether 81 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:23,839 or not SBA would be upheld. I think a lot 82 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,240 of people on all sides thought it would be struck down. 83 00:04:27,519 --> 00:04:29,680 It was not good law, and it was and Roe 84 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,959 would like stop that. So in the when I started, 85 00:04:32,959 --> 00:04:35,319 they were like yeah, and we sort of anticipated a 86 00:04:35,319 --> 00:04:37,800 lot of sources like they would anticipate getting struck down. 87 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,040 And then about a week later got upheld and I 88 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:42,800 was like, oh, oh no, I. 89 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 2: Thought this this is happening. 90 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: This is happening. I mean I sort of was like, 91 00:04:45,879 --> 00:04:47,800 this is happening because we've got the dabs hearing and 92 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,160 all that, but I was like, this happening now, right, Yeah, 93 00:04:50,199 --> 00:04:52,839 really changed you as well. 94 00:04:53,439 --> 00:04:56,079 Speaker 2: And that mechanism lives on. I'm sure we'll talk about it. 95 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,399 Speaker 1: Yea, it's like still in effect. 96 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: And for other bills, I mean too, I mean that's 97 00:04:59,560 --> 00:04:59,920 living on. 98 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,439 Speaker 1: So yes, we're finding a new. 99 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,439 Speaker 2: Uses for it every day. Yes, very useful. 100 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was really interesting for me to in 101 00:05:09,519 --> 00:05:11,680 a matter of two weeks be like, oh, this is 102 00:05:11,879 --> 00:05:12,920 now the full focus. 103 00:05:12,879 --> 00:05:15,439 Speaker 2: Right yeah, yeah, yeah, I can imagine I was jarring 104 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,319 for the abortion clinics as well. Yes, yeah, how quickly 105 00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:21,680 that all kind of like collassed. 106 00:05:21,959 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was such a such a period of time, 107 00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:26,319 really crazy. And now it feels like, of course it's 108 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,920 an effect, like right, feel it's not even a question anymore. 109 00:05:30,079 --> 00:05:32,040 But at the time it felt very shocking. 110 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,639 Speaker 3: But it's still interestingly causes a lot of confusion where 111 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:39,600 you know, I'll sometimes write about the law all abortions 112 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,040 are banned except those to save the life the mother, essentially, 113 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,319 which we'll get into the language of the exception later. 114 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,399 But people still think that it's legal until six weeks 115 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,680 because that's what SBA legalized. They still just constantly they 116 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,680 don't realize that it is no longer that, like there's 117 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,920 a criminal penalty if you have you know, a heaper 118 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,759 form and abortion before six weeks. 119 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: Right. 120 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,439 Speaker 2: There was a study not too long ago that people 121 00:06:02,439 --> 00:06:04,600 didn't even know the clinics were closed. Like there was 122 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:06,519 a question said, you know, can you still get an abortion? 123 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:07,160 People said yes. 124 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 3: A lot of people didn't know. There's no rape exception, 125 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:15,439 there's no incestic exception, there's no exception for fatal fetal diagnoses. Yeah. 126 00:06:15,439 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: I think we've heard that from so many people who 127 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,240 have needed to seek an abortion for like a lethal 128 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,560 field anomaly or something like that, where they say like 129 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,920 they didn't know until it was there, until you need it, 130 00:06:25,959 --> 00:06:28,639 that like there's no exception for that, and then they're 131 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,120 convincing their family members like oh no, no, no, neverone's like, oh, 132 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:32,480 I thought it would deal with that, and you're like 133 00:06:32,639 --> 00:06:36,600 it does not. Yeah, So that sort of catches us 134 00:06:36,639 --> 00:06:39,240 up to today, where abortion is banned up to six 135 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,920 weeks or after six weeks. In pregnancy through private enforcement 136 00:06:42,439 --> 00:06:46,079 is banned from the moment of conception through criminal enforcement. 137 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,360 We are going to talk about the pre ro band 138 00:06:48,439 --> 00:06:51,199 so just put a pin in that for now, but 139 00:06:52,319 --> 00:06:54,920 baylis talk about like what sort of the like what 140 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,319 issues we've seen under this for patients and providers, and 141 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,000 then we'll get into what the clarifying bills aimed to do. 142 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think the point to start talking to 143 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,439 this would be twenty women who had had serious pregnancy 144 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,360 complications and two obgi ns sued the state over their 145 00:07:14,439 --> 00:07:18,360 complications and sort of I think became the biggest source 146 00:07:18,639 --> 00:07:22,120 of people sharing their stories of how this band it 147 00:07:22,199 --> 00:07:29,319 affected them. The lead plaintiff, Amanda Zarowski, had a premature 148 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,720 water break and because while the pregnancy was doomed without 149 00:07:33,759 --> 00:07:38,079 any amniotic fluid, the fetal cardiac activity was still there. 150 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,720 A hospital told her she basically had to wait for 151 00:07:40,759 --> 00:07:45,120 it to pass, and in that time she developed sepsis, 152 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,519 which is a life threatening infection, and that sort of 153 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,199 like galvanized a movement I guess to talk about, you know, 154 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,120 where is the line with the risk of death for 155 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:03,959 mother Other women have spoken about having a diagnosis for example, 156 00:08:04,079 --> 00:08:07,519 and these are you know, women with very wanted pregnancies. 157 00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:14,759 One Caitlin Cash who lives in Austin, had a child 158 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,839 that had a condition that meant the bones did not 159 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,879 develop correctly and could break within her womb, and also 160 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:25,600 that it would not that the fetus would not survive, 161 00:08:26,839 --> 00:08:29,439 and she under Texas law, you can't leave the state 162 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,559 in that case. So she felt that the best decision 163 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,600 for her family was to leave the state. She took 164 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,960 part in the Zarosky lawsuit. There's a woman who Samantha Cassiano, 165 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:44,240 who had a child that lung the lungs did not 166 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:46,639 develop correctly and also I think the brain it was 167 00:08:47,039 --> 00:08:49,240 I don't remember the name of the condition, but I 168 00:08:49,279 --> 00:08:57,159 think yes, And she couldn't leave the state to terminate 169 00:08:57,159 --> 00:09:01,320 the pregnancy, and she testified just last week. But also 170 00:09:01,519 --> 00:09:05,039 in this Zaroski case about watching the baby that she 171 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,360 gave birth to choke over the course of ours, eyes 172 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:13,240 turning purple. So it's it's that kind of thing where, 173 00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:16,759 you know, some women choose to carry those pregnancies to term, 174 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:19,960 and other women feel that they want to have the 175 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:23,600 choice to terminate those pregnancies. So that's that's, you know, 176 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,519 aside from all the cases in which women want to 177 00:09:28,519 --> 00:09:29,759 get abortions for other reasons. 178 00:09:29,759 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 4: Than medical diagnoses, right, Like the crux of the issue 179 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,120 that we've like sort of seen emerge in the last 180 00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:40,840 three I mean three years since SBA, certainly, but certainly 181 00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:43,799 since the near total ban is like this question right 182 00:09:43,799 --> 00:09:45,480 about like when can doctors intervene, like you said with 183 00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:48,279 Amanda Zarowski, and like, as you said, Taylor, like there 184 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,080 is an exception for you know, the law says basically 185 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,399 like if the pregnant patient is going to is going 186 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,840 to die or like suffer significant issues with like the 187 00:09:58,039 --> 00:10:01,279 like long term medical impacts because of continuing to carry 188 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:01,879 this pregnancy. 189 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: But the consequences are so strict, right like Taylor, like 190 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:08,240 what why are doctors say? Why do you doctors say, 191 00:10:08,279 --> 00:10:10,480 like they're hesitating to intervene on these pregnancies. 192 00:10:10,519 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: Right, These are steep penalties, the possibility of up to 193 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,480 ninety nine years in prison, raplication of your medical license, 194 00:10:17,759 --> 00:10:21,840 things that would basically ruin your life. So I think 195 00:10:22,279 --> 00:10:25,360 between the doctors and the doctor's lawyers, I think that 196 00:10:25,519 --> 00:10:28,600 is a huge risk to be taking when you know 197 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,679 you could gamble on like just waiting a little bit 198 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,360 and waiting a little bit, right. 199 00:10:32,279 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: I think, Like it's so funny, like we I think 200 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,120 we hear a lot about like, you know, waiting until 201 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:40,000 the patient has like gotten to a point where it's 202 00:10:40,039 --> 00:10:42,240 so clear their life is endangered that now will act. 203 00:10:42,519 --> 00:10:45,240 I also feel like, anecdotally I've heard I think sometimes 204 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,200 doctors just acting in their own sort of like personal interests, 205 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,399 think like i't just wait, like and then my shift 206 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:53,120 will be over. And then you know that it's like 207 00:10:53,159 --> 00:10:54,600 the ur and like you have to get the nurses 208 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,399 on board, you have to get like the doctor, the 209 00:10:56,399 --> 00:10:58,919 hospital lawyer. Like this is not I think we see 210 00:10:58,919 --> 00:11:00,919 this as like a doctor's stand. They're looking at a 211 00:11:00,919 --> 00:11:03,840 patient being like wait till you're sicker. But really it's 212 00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:07,360 like a whole apparatus. These are happening in hospitals. These 213 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,240 are happening in like the state's biggest hospitals. 214 00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: So yeah, and I wonder how much of it is 215 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,279 even conscious or it's just like okay, well maybe not 216 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,759 now and then the next time you get to that patient, yeah. 217 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: Right, exactly. Yeah, And we've now had at least three 218 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,799 stories of women. We've had three stories reported of women 219 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,879 who have died due to this delayed care, which sort 220 00:11:26,879 --> 00:11:29,039 of brought us to this point. I mean We've had 221 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:34,559 anti abortion groups lawmakers and saying like these laws are clear, 222 00:11:34,639 --> 00:11:36,519 we don't need to clarify them, like the doctors are 223 00:11:36,519 --> 00:11:39,840 the like if the doctors aren't acting, I remember at 224 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,600 the Zaraski hearing they were saying like if your doctors 225 00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:45,919 aren't treating you, soon them for medical malpractice. Was basically 226 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,399 the message like this isn't a problem with the law 227 00:11:49,799 --> 00:11:51,919 that has changed. We had to be three pro Public 228 00:11:51,919 --> 00:11:54,720 has reported on these three women who died and due 229 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,480 to this delayed care and. 230 00:11:57,279 --> 00:11:58,879 Speaker 2: And theist reporting as well in the. 231 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: Sepsist reporting, right, this like huge increase in patients, pregnant 232 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,080 patients experiencing sepsis, which brings us to now. I mean, 233 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,480 it's funny like in I think it was like November, 234 00:12:08,879 --> 00:12:11,759 right before the election, Brian Hughes, the author of several 235 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,159 Texas abortion bans, a senator from Miniola, wrote this op 236 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:18,399 ed that was like I wrote, the abortion laws they're clear, 237 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:19,600 they don't need to be clarified. 238 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,279 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, what happened next to yes? 239 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: Ye? Yeah. 240 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,639 Speaker 2: Fast forward some months and we're in the legislative session 241 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,679 and there's a bipartisan bill on the table to clarify 242 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,639 the law. Change some of the language to with the 243 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,279 intents of making it clearer and making it more possible 244 00:12:38,279 --> 00:12:40,039 for doctor Stantervene sooner. 245 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,399 Speaker 1: And Baalis, I mean talk about this bill and what 246 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:44,600 isn't it and what is not in it? 247 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think the most potentially disappointing thing was 248 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,240 that there was some talk that may be an exception 249 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,279 for fatal fetal anomalies when you know you're pregnant and 250 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,080 the you know, a doctor says this fetus is not 251 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,840 going to survive, would be carved out. That's not the case. 252 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,440 What it does is it takes inconsistent language among the 253 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:12,240 three abortion bands, three different laws that Texas has, and 254 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,919 streamlines the exception for medical emergencies, where once there was 255 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:19,480 a language that said a woman must have a life 256 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,399 threatening condition that causes risk of death or risk of 257 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,200 serious risk of substantial loss of a major bodily function, 258 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:33,799 which is where its soup, as one lot professor told me, now, 259 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,200 it's it takes out this prerequisite that you have a 260 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,240 life threatening condition. So it's a truly bifurcated law. You know, 261 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,879 risk of substantial laws and major bodily function or risk 262 00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:45,559 of death. It says that you can you know, doctors 263 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:51,039 need not wait until the risk is imminent to intervene it. 264 00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:55,000 It's clarify. Its widens the definition of an ectopic pregnancy 265 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,799 because those can be you know, in scar tissue, you know, 266 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,840 and be dangerous, not just be outside the woman, be dangerous. 267 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,159 And it also requires that doctors got a certain amount 268 00:14:06,159 --> 00:14:11,240 of education on what the law says. Groups like Texas 269 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,159 Right to Life have said that the problem for them 270 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:14,759 is not that the law needs to clarify, but the 271 00:14:14,799 --> 00:14:19,000 doctors aren't educated on it. So, you know, doctors generally 272 00:14:19,039 --> 00:14:21,799 have disagreed with that, but we'll see. And then it 273 00:14:21,799 --> 00:14:25,360 also has a course for alerts that can take right. 274 00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:28,639 Speaker 1: I mean this and you know, I think this is 275 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:30,600 the kind of thing like we as journalists cannot hit 276 00:14:30,679 --> 00:14:33,720 hard enough. It's like, this does not expand who can 277 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:37,200 get an abortion in Texas. It does expand, it hopefully 278 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,799 expands who is able to get an abortion they previously 279 00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:43,559 qualified for how qunquote and how quickly? 280 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, the timing I think is the key. 281 00:14:45,759 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, And this it's gotten a lot of great feedback, right, 282 00:14:48,919 --> 00:14:51,919 I mean, we've got some very strange bedfellows on this law. Right, 283 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,120 We've got Senator Brian Hughes of you know, strongly anti 284 00:14:56,279 --> 00:15:00,480 abortion conservative. And on the House side we have Representive 285 00:15:00,519 --> 00:15:05,559 Donna Howard, Representative Anne Johnson. These like very pro abortion. 286 00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:08,879 Some of the most like I think, outspoken abortion advocates 287 00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:14,960 in the House on board doctors groups are on board. 288 00:15:12,759 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: Uh, Texas Hospital Associate, Texas. 289 00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: Hospital Association, the anti abortion groups. 290 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,919 Speaker 2: Like it was feeling Medical Association. 291 00:15:19,639 --> 00:15:22,039 Speaker 1: Like we were gonna have a little moment of five 292 00:15:22,159 --> 00:15:27,399 partisan joy. Wouldn't that be nice? That's what it was 293 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,840 looking like. Yes, and then we still may I think 294 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:36,080 another record scratch, Yeah, another record scratch. This issue has 295 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,279 reared its ugly head about. As I was telling Baylists before, 296 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,000 this my literal favorite thing to talk about in the 297 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,360 entire world, the pre ro banks fun. Yes, I am 298 00:15:46,399 --> 00:15:49,879 obsessed with the pre ro laws. So, for brief explanation, 299 00:15:50,519 --> 00:15:53,720 when roebe Wade was decided in nineteen seventy three, people 300 00:15:53,759 --> 00:15:56,120 forget it was actually a Texas case, and so they 301 00:15:56,559 --> 00:16:03,000 essentially put on ice all states abortion bands, but specifically 302 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:08,279 they were saying, Texas, your law is unconstitutional. Now Texas said, okay, 303 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,320 they did not take it off the books, they left 304 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,399 it sitting there, but it was unenforced for forty nine years. 305 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:20,039 Then ROW is struck down by and replaced with Dobbs, 306 00:16:20,039 --> 00:16:24,399 which says you can ban abortion. And the question emerged 307 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,679 of are those pre ROW laws still on the books. 308 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:34,320 And it only matters because these laws allow would allow 309 00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:39,200 the state to criminally penalize anyone who furnishes the means 310 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,919 for an abortion. So groups that help people pay to 311 00:16:42,039 --> 00:16:45,039 travel out of state and things like that, people who 312 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,159 help bring you know, are involved in abortion pills and 313 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,639 things like that, are very nervous about those laws being 314 00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:55,440 put back into effect. 315 00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:58,559 Speaker 2: And critically, can I add two on it? Unlike the 316 00:16:58,559 --> 00:17:01,279 most recent bands does not have an exception for criminalizing 317 00:17:01,279 --> 00:17:01,840 the mother. 318 00:17:02,159 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: Yes, right, which is a huge I mean under Texas 319 00:17:05,519 --> 00:17:10,440 existing or definitely existing laws, they cannot the person who 320 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,160 has the abortion cannot be criminalized. 321 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,839 Speaker 2: Right, And that's been a major Republican talking point. We 322 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:15,680 don't want to go there. 323 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 3: Yes, we have the Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick saying that's ridiculous. 324 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,920 Anyone who says that we would go after the mother 325 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:24,079 is you know, the Republicans are saying that, not really Republicans. 326 00:17:24,759 --> 00:17:29,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, The problem is, like, are the pre ro laws 327 00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:33,440 in effect? If you ask conservative lawmakers, they say, yes, 328 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,240 they are definitively in effect. We have written them into 329 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,799 statute before. Those laws are good laws. 330 00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 2: Sorry. 331 00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: If you ask the other side, they say, definitively they 332 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,039 are not in effect. The Fifth Circuit, the Appellate Court, 333 00:17:48,079 --> 00:17:53,920 has said that they are repealed by implication. Taylor talking 334 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,000 about like how this is now coming into this. 335 00:17:56,079 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 2: Issue, right, Yeah, So I think just very recently the 336 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:02,799 abortion funds have come out and so that they oppose 337 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:07,160 this clarification law or these clarification laws because they believe 338 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:11,240 that basically, by amending that, you know, Baylis's pointed out, 339 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,720 you have to change the definition everywhere it appears in 340 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,359 the law. So they're going to make them all the same. 341 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,599 That means you have to touch the what are we 342 00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:21,160 calling them pre ro brands, And by doing that, you're 343 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,119 basically signaling to courts that we think this is an effect, 344 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:26,960 because if it weren't, why do you need to amend 345 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,559 amend it? So to them, that would be kind of 346 00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:33,160 the green light for the courts to then say that 347 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,759 those laws are active, and it would kind of counteract 348 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,160 their previous argument that they are not in effect. 349 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a real like legal gray area. It's one 350 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,720 of those things where each side, if you call it 351 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:47,839 like a legal debate, they're like, well, it's not really 352 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,359 a debate, right, and you're like, but you each have 353 00:18:50,079 --> 00:18:53,119 different reasons why you think that's right the case. Yeah. Yeah, 354 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,160 it's super complicated, yes, but I love it because I 355 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:58,799 love unresolved legal question. 356 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 2: It's one of those end the weds things that probably 357 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,640 the general public or reporters wouldn't even get into if 358 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,000 it weren't like the crux of the issue here, you 359 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:06,920 have to talk about it. 360 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:11,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I people often call these the nineteen twenty 361 00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:13,720 five laws, which is inaccurate. 362 00:19:13,799 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is my real bugle. 363 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 2: I thought you were going to go there. 364 00:19:16,519 --> 00:19:19,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is my real thing. If people, if I 365 00:19:19,799 --> 00:19:21,880 have one influence on Texas journalism, it is people will 366 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,079 stop calling them the nineteen twenty five laws and call 367 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,759 them the eighteen fifty seven laws. Okay, nineteen twenty five 368 00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:29,720 is just when Texas codified its penal code. So all 369 00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:32,799 of our laws are nineteen twenty five laws unless they've 370 00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:33,599 been amended since. 371 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,839 Speaker 2: So do you think there's like a political aspect to 372 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:36,519 that or now. 373 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,599 Speaker 3: Nineteen twenty five objectively sounds. 374 00:19:39,839 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 2: It sounds much better than yeah, we gotta go back 375 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:43,319 to fifty seven. 376 00:19:43,799 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, almost Now. I do think like when Arizona was 377 00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:49,880 debating their pre ro statue, like all the messaging from 378 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,079 the abortion access people was very like these laws existed before, 379 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,519 like Arizona was even a state, Like these existed before 380 00:19:55,519 --> 00:19:56,200 the Civil War. 381 00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 2: Feels very like give it some context. 382 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think can we talk about 383 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,240 sort of the other side of the debate, right, so 384 00:20:05,799 --> 00:20:09,440 the abortion funds are very concerned that, you know, this 385 00:20:09,519 --> 00:20:13,400 would make them stop work potentially because it has this 386 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,799 language not furnishing the means for an abortion. I talked 387 00:20:16,839 --> 00:20:21,160 with some legal experts. One of them is Less Sepper, 388 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,480 a professor of law at UT and she feels that 389 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:29,480 the argument is not that strong what she says in 390 00:20:29,599 --> 00:20:31,880 and you alreadys also talked to her eleanor I believe. 391 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:37,720 But what she said is that one this law was 392 00:20:37,759 --> 00:20:41,400 only ever construed to apply in state, so you know, 393 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,480 the funds for out of state abortions shouldn't be affected 394 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:48,759 because the means for an abortion that was meant to 395 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,400 apply like to having an abortion in state, although of 396 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,519 course it could apply to pills that come into the state. 397 00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:57,839 Another thing she said was that the courts have always 398 00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:03,359 interpreted it to be to not be able to be infortune. 399 00:21:05,279 --> 00:21:08,000 So I think, you know, she thinks that, you know, 400 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,240 she thinks that it's sort of not a super likely chance. 401 00:21:12,279 --> 00:21:14,559 You would have to have a judge first find that 402 00:21:14,599 --> 00:21:18,319 the law hadn't been repealed, and then you'd have to 403 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:20,880 find a judge that says, yes, this can be enforced 404 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,920 out of state, which is already a whole nother constitutional 405 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,400 Pandora's box that is, you know, being debated elsewhere. And 406 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,279 there's another law that would actually you know, codify abortion. 407 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:36,759 You know, funding abortions out of state is not law bill, 408 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,160 the funding abortion out of state is illegal. 409 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: That's another subject, right, Yeah, I think that's right. Like 410 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,039 this this question of like, is is this an attempt 411 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,880 to revive the pre ro laws? Is like I think 412 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,319 a lot of conservatives think they're already good law. Like, 413 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,640 they don't we don't need to revive anything. And so 414 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,319 if we're gonna amend our abortion laws, why wouldn't we 415 00:21:57,319 --> 00:21:58,680 amend all of our abortion. 416 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,279 Speaker 2: Laws that are in effect. 417 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,039 Speaker 1: They're not they're not mad about it, no, right, and 418 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:02,960 they're not. 419 00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 2: Like saying we're open to taking that out right, Yeah, I. 420 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: Mean they're trying to belt some suspenders every single time 421 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,119 they can. Pre Ro laws are good statute, even though 422 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,039 the courts have been like. 423 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, but that it's absolutely true that you could totally there, 424 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:19,880 it is not. You can't rule out the possibility that 425 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,000 they could find a way to. 426 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: I mean, the clean path forward if they were like, 427 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:25,480 oh no, no, no, our intent was never to revive 428 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:28,160 the prero statutes, would be to repeal the prero statutes, 429 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,000 and that's obviously not gonna happpen, right. 430 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 2: So well, but then talking about the fifth I mean, 431 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,160 the other part of this is that you know, this 432 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,480 post stops has not gone up the appellate ladder yet, 433 00:22:39,839 --> 00:22:42,519 so we don't know really, I mean, we can surmise 434 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,599 based on you know, politics, but we don't know where 435 00:22:46,599 --> 00:22:47,680 that case will go. 436 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: And while those are federal courts, right, this is a 437 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,480 state law. Like it's all unresolved and really really interesting. 438 00:22:58,039 --> 00:23:01,200 You mentioned Bayless, the other big bill also being carried 439 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:06,839 by Senator Brian Hughes SB twenty eight eighty. That is 440 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,000 a what I believe legal experts are calling the most 441 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,400 wide ranging attempt yet to crack down on abortion pills 442 00:23:13,559 --> 00:23:18,799 and travel and all the ways Texans are sort of 443 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,599 thwarting the abortion bands. Talk a little bit about what's 444 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:22,319 in that film. 445 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, So according to Texas Right to Life, there are 446 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,519 seven enforcement mechanisms in this bill. It is a monolith. 447 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:36,799 It would notably bar First of all, it will allow 448 00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:40,200 private citizens to sue companies out of state, you know, 449 00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:44,200 wherever they're based that for you know, provide information on 450 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,119 abortion pills, or provide the pills, you know, to be mailed, 451 00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:52,160 which some experts or some you know, the American Civil 452 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,119 Liberties Union, for example, last week, we're like, that's a 453 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:59,759 First Amendment concern. Who knows. They The law would make 454 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:02,920 it illegal to yeah, fund an abortion or help someone 455 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,960 get an abortion out of state, which would very clearly 456 00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:10,440 challenge sort of what people think, you know, precedent on 457 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,519 the right of people within a certain state to travel 458 00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:20,960 out of state for commerce. It would, I think, Yeah, 459 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,640 those are the sort of the main, the main things 460 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,599 about it. And it'll be interesting because a judge in 461 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,880 Alabama just ruled a federal judge just ruled that a 462 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,720 similar Alabama law that that would ban helping someone get 463 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,640 an abortion out of state was completely unconstitutional and said, 464 00:24:39,759 --> 00:24:42,519 and I think this is an interesting comparison that it 465 00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:45,680 would be like, sorry, not Alabama, Louisiana, that it would 466 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,960 be like telling someone that it's illegal for them to 467 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,119 go to pay for a flight to Las Vegas to gamble. Yeah, 468 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,839 because criminal laws are generally, you know, construed to apply 469 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,480 within the state that passes. 470 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: Them, right. I think it was Alabama, it was okay, 471 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,599 I think so, thank you. Yeah, it's usually Louisiana. 472 00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:07,039 Speaker 3: Okay, thank you. 473 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,279 Speaker 1: What else stands out to you about this bill? I mean, 474 00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:10,200 what are you hearing? 475 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: I think the private enforcement mechanism part is interesting too. 476 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,039 We're seeing that comeback here or you know, anyone who 477 00:25:17,079 --> 00:25:20,640 hears about really any private citizen that could be. We've 478 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,839 seen it a lot in you know, spouse's ex spouses, boyfriends, 479 00:25:25,559 --> 00:25:28,519 other partners. But also that could be any of your 480 00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:32,559 medical staff or anyone who is aware can technically file 481 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,680 suit against you for damages for. 482 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: Like for one hundred thousand dollars cases. It really is 483 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,359 an escalation of the test originally, that's true. 484 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 3: And one thing I forgot to mention is that it 485 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,759 would give Attorney General Ken Paxton notable abortion opponent to 486 00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:50,160 say the least, the right to take up any case 487 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,519 that a district attorney does not take that's a criminal, 488 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:58,839 you know, abortion case essentially, right now, Paxton can't just 489 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,960 decide to take in a abortion case or any criminal case. 490 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,599 He has to be invited, so that that would be 491 00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:04,960 a huge change. 492 00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:07,559 Speaker 1: And would also expand the wrongful death statute, which we've 493 00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:12,240 already seen used and there's been like one a man 494 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:14,960 brought a wrongful death lawsuit against his ex wife saying 495 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,880 that because she had an abortion that you know, he 496 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,160 could sue for wrongful death of like of the child 497 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,079 against her friends who helped with the abortion. That case 498 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,839 sort of ended up petering out, but it does end 499 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,720 up like it's an somewhat unresolved question that this would 500 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,000 answer by saying you can sue for wrongful death. Taylor, 501 00:26:35,039 --> 00:26:38,160 you mentioned like the X spouse piece of this, and like, 502 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,160 I think what we're seeing now and what like I 503 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,039 think a lot of people who have studied like pregnancy 504 00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,119 and abortion criminalization know is like that's basically how these 505 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,079 cases emerge. Right, It's like a medical provider or you're. 506 00:26:49,839 --> 00:26:51,519 Speaker 2: You know, nicks, how do you find out about it? Right? 507 00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:53,039 And your heart, Like it's. 508 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,759 Speaker 1: Not like these you know, like these like local ordinances 509 00:26:55,759 --> 00:26:57,240 that are like you can't use our roads and things 510 00:26:57,279 --> 00:26:58,839 like that. It's like people always say like, well, how 511 00:26:58,839 --> 00:27:00,799 would they even know how they out And it's like 512 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:02,440 you have your break. 513 00:27:02,319 --> 00:27:04,039 Speaker 2: Up unless you have one of those banners like when 514 00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:06,119 you're going to state abortion. 515 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,759 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, probably not. Yeah, I mean this bill, like 516 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:15,480 you said, it faces I mean, let's be clear, even 517 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,559 if it passes the Senate faces a much harder road 518 00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:22,759 in the House. It also faces pre significant legal challenges. 519 00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, wouldn't likely be you know, in effect. As soon 520 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,759 as it went into effect, it would be tied up 521 00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:29,279 in court almost certainly, which. 522 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,279 Speaker 1: Doesn't seem to bother legislators that much. 523 00:27:32,279 --> 00:27:33,799 Speaker 3: That's the fun of it for them, I think. 524 00:27:33,799 --> 00:27:36,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, you know, see what the courts say. And obviously, 525 00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:38,480 as we saw with SBA, like you just have to 526 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,480 find the creative workaround that the works. Right, So a 527 00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:47,160 much more abortion heavy session, we're sort of back to 528 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,000 our old our old games and an interesting sort of 529 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,319 to use your word Bayliss, like bifurcated session of like 530 00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:57,160 we're clarifying, we're working with these groups, we're trying to 531 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,920 like get these laws, you know, sort of cleaned up. 532 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,079 And on the other hand, we're also trying to crack 533 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,799 down much more aggressively on how people are thwarting those. 534 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 3: Those laws and the politics are so interesting. I think 535 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,799 with how much negative attention Texas's abortion ban got last 536 00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:20,839 election cycle, I think some people thought and Trump, you know, 537 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,960 sort of trying to not talk about abortion. People thought, maybe, 538 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,599 you know, this was being viewed as not a popular issue, 539 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,400 not something that you know, politicians wanted to touch. And 540 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,400 then I think, you know, the SB twenty eight eighty 541 00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:36,720 was like, no, we are, we are stepping on the gas. 542 00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:38,559 We are not going to let up. But I also 543 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,039 wonder if there's part of this that is about perception. 544 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,960 Republicans in Texas, their primary voters are generally very anti abortion. 545 00:28:46,319 --> 00:28:48,680 They don't want to be perceived as supporting abortion anyway. 546 00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:52,480 This clarification bill could be used against them. Supporting a 547 00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:55,880 bill that will, you know, unquestionably crack down on abortion. 548 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,400 Does that give them more leverage? You know? I think 549 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,000 that's I don't know if you guys have thought about, 550 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,359 but that's something I kind of wonder. 551 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, I think it's almost like in the current 552 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,119 it's hard to do one without it's hard to push 553 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,680 for one without the other. A little bit, I think 554 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,960 this is not surprising to me that we're seeing both 555 00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:17,640 this like effort to clarify at the same time that 556 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,640 we're seeing this massive crackdown. 557 00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:22,359 Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, even those hearings were scheduled on the 558 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:26,440 same day. Yes, so even physically they're being and heard together. Yeah. 559 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: Right, they're very much moving in locksteps so far. I mean, 560 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,200 I do think the clarifying bill will have more luck 561 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,039 in the House than SB twenty eighty, but like not 562 00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:35,559 to say it won't pass the House, just to say 563 00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:39,079 it's like going to face a harder road. Just briefly 564 00:29:39,079 --> 00:29:42,880 to talk about this, we had a crazy day to 565 00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:45,039 what by the time this runs. Two weeks ago, where 566 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,720 as you mentioned, all three of the big priority abortion 567 00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:49,799 bills were up in the Senate for a committee hearing. 568 00:29:50,279 --> 00:29:52,480 At the same time, there was a hearing in Waller 569 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:56,960 County about Texas's first arrest of a medical provider after 570 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,440 under the abortion bands. It was a midwife in will 571 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,599 Our County who's accused of performing abortions in violation of 572 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,640 the bands, and we got a court ruling out of 573 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,200 New York State saying they would not honor basically Texas's 574 00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:15,519 legal battle against a New York doctor who is accused 575 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:19,039 of mailing pills into Texas. It's all happening all on 576 00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:22,880 many fronts, all at once. I mean, uh, Taylor, what's 577 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,319 your sense of, you know, on the ags, on the 578 00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:29,000 attorney general side, on the executive side, how they're like 579 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,119 continuing to sort of batter this issue, right. 580 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 2: I think that's kind of been their mo from the beginning, 581 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:35,720 is you know, what are the different ways we can 582 00:30:35,759 --> 00:30:37,319 find I mean, in the same way we're talking about 583 00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:39,400 how people are thwarting the bands, they're on the other 584 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,279 side trying to figure out, you know, what can we 585 00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:43,599 do under the you know, constraints of the law to 586 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,480 go after people who are still somehow you know, having abortions, 587 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,720 And so this is just kind of a continuation of that. 588 00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:53,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, Bayliss, I mean what do you see in like again, 589 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,680 as we talked about, like not all of these are 590 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,519 gonna are going to necessarily succeed in court, but what 591 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,839 sort of your impression of their willingness like take on 592 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,960 these to be like the first big case. 593 00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:09,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the game plan. I think, you know, abortion 594 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,519 is one area where I think jurisprudence is so important, 595 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,160 and so any reporter who touches on abortion is is 596 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,079 a court supporter as well. But you know also with 597 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,000 you know, religious freedom or religious you know, church and 598 00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:27,039 state issues. So I think, I mean, I think SB 599 00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:29,440 twenty eighty is very much proved and we'll see how 600 00:31:29,519 --> 00:31:32,079 much lawmakers go for it in the House. But you 601 00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:34,039 know that they want to throw everything against the wall 602 00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:36,440 and see what sticks. And I think this arrest of 603 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,200 the medical provider in Houston, Maria Rojas, is also, you know, 604 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,480 very much showing that they want to put some case 605 00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:48,519 law on the books of you know, when this can 606 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:50,839 be enforced. And in a way it's you know, a 607 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:56,440 pretty smart case because she's accused of acting as a 608 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,519 doctor when she is not. And so even if the 609 00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:01,960 abortion charges don't stick, there's something they can say they 610 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,920 want if if that's you know, if that's proven. 611 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: Right, Like we were talking about this just before, you know, 612 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,359 the judge in Waller County said basically like you guys 613 00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:11,519 are all here very worried about the abortion piece. I'm 614 00:32:11,599 --> 00:32:14,000 very worried about like a doctor is someone purporting to 615 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,039 be a doctor. It's like there's a couple of legal 616 00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:19,599 issues ensnared in this that you're right, Like, even if 617 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,599 let's say it does play out and they're not able 618 00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:25,640 to pin illegal abortions on her, if you you know, 619 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,960 you still get the headline when you arrest her. You 620 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,200 still get the headline when you know, eventually if she 621 00:32:30,279 --> 00:32:32,960 is indicted, you get the headline. You know, if if 622 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,240 she does get any jail time, Like, you know, the 623 00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:39,039 details matter. I think sometimes less in this in these games, 624 00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:42,920 in these like uh, you know, rush to be to 625 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,720 get your name out there and be the first on 626 00:32:44,839 --> 00:32:45,759 these big charges. 627 00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:48,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, Paxson got to put his name on this one too, 628 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,480 because Waller County kind of well they're joining up, but 629 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:54,039 they were able to kind of bring him in so 630 00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:55,519 that you know, he. 631 00:32:55,519 --> 00:32:56,119 Speaker 3: Brought them in. 632 00:32:56,359 --> 00:32:58,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, brought them yes, right, yeah, they were like. 633 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 2: That's true, back and forth, right, Yeah, absolutely, yeah. 634 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 3: You know, in terms of like he seems to get 635 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,960 a lot of positive feedback when he does this, obviously 636 00:33:08,039 --> 00:33:09,599 gets a lot of negative feedback to but I don't 637 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:10,279 know if he hears that. 638 00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:12,519 Speaker 1: Certainly, I mean, if I think from voter, from the 639 00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:14,839 people who he needs to vote for him. I think 640 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,400 this is a real bread and butter issue, and you know, 641 00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:21,519 as someone who is teasing a run for the Senate, 642 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,160 I think, uh, you know, he's certainly trying to, you know, 643 00:33:25,559 --> 00:33:27,200 do what he has continued to do, which is appeal 644 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:32,440 to Republican voters, and this fits that. Yeah. Well, that 645 00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:36,640 was truly my favorite episode the Tribcast. Yet that's it 646 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,960 for today. You can find all episodes of the trib 647 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,079 Cast on YouTube or wherever you find your podcasts. Be 648 00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:44,480 sure to like, subscribe, and share the podcast on all 649 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,599 of your platforms. If you'd like to get in touch 650 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,160 with us, as I'm sure everyone will after this episode, 651 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,279 lots of thoughts. We get so many My inboxes is amazing. 652 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,119 You can reach us at Tribcast at Texastribune dot org. 653 00:33:57,759 --> 00:33:59,279 Thank you guys both for joining us. 654 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:00,839 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for having yea. 655 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,079 Speaker 1: Our producers are Rob Avula and Chris Spobda. Our theme 656 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,599 music is composed by Rob and we will see you 657 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:13,480 next week.